1
00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday, everybody. I'm

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,079
Speaker 1: Holly Fry and I'm Tracy B. Wilson. Tracy, I have

4
00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,040
Speaker 1: to ask you, and you kind of hinted at it,

5
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,840
Speaker 1: when did your family get a microwave? So I'm not

6
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 1: sure exactly what year it was, but I was born

7
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,920
Speaker 1: in n and I'm old enough to remember it entering

8
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: our household, and it was in a manner radar range.

9
00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,120
Speaker 1: And I actually wonder now that I think about it,

10
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,920
Speaker 1: the house that I grew up in was built in

11
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and we had a dishwasher, and I

12
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,479
Speaker 1: don't really know. I don't remember if the dishwasher was

13
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,840
Speaker 1: there from the time I was tiny, or if they

14
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: had to do work to make room for the dishwasher.

15
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,320
Speaker 1: But if the dishwasher was already there, the space on

16
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,960
Speaker 1: top of it was like the correct space to put

17
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,880
Speaker 1: a microwave. So I kind of wonder if the house

18
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,720
Speaker 1: was built with the intent that a microwave would go there,

19
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,479
Speaker 1: or if that was just coincidental. But um, the thing

20
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,479
Speaker 1: I specifically remember was my mother's insistence that we needed

21
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,760
Speaker 1: to stay at least an arms length away from it

22
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,960
Speaker 1: while it was cooking. Uh. And I also found a

23
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,119
Speaker 1: picture of a model of the radar range from that era,

24
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,880
Speaker 1: and I like, I have a sense memory of you

25
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: you pulled down a handle to open it. It was

26
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 1: like you pulled the handle down and it kind of

27
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 1: unlocked the door and it pulled the rest of the

28
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,880
Speaker 1: way down. Yeah. I have such a strangely strong memory

29
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 1: of shopping with my parents for our first microwave. And

30
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: that would have been it was after we moved to Florida,

31
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: That's how I can say it. Um. And that would

32
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 1: have been nine, at the end of nine, so sometime

33
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 1: after that. And I remember the salesman being like your

34
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: mom was where you'd stay away a little missy, like

35
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 1: this is dangerous stuff, and that just I will never forget,

36
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 1: like him kind of scare tacticking me about the whole thing.

37
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 1: But we ended up taking that microwave home and that

38
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,080
Speaker 1: was that. Um. I have a very ridiculous story about

39
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 1: microwaves and experiments, which is that, Um, when my beloved

40
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,640
Speaker 1: and I first got married, I had a microwave already

41
00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,760
Speaker 1: and he had too. One was like his actual functioning

42
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 1: microwave and one was one that he bought to try

43
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: to fix up. And so at that point we had

44
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 1: three microwaves, so we picked one that we were going

45
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,680
Speaker 1: to keep. We gave one of them away to the

46
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 1: housekeeper at my work at the time, um, because she

47
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,880
Speaker 1: was moving and she was like, I actually do need

48
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: a microwave. I was like, great, here you go. Um.

49
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 1: And then the one that was kind of jankie and

50
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,320
Speaker 1: didn't work great. We as the children that we were,

51
00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:57,760
Speaker 1: we didn't want to give it away to anybody because

52
00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 1: if something went wrong, we would feel terrible. So we

53
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:07,920
Speaker 1: were like blow things up. And so one afternoon on

54
00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 1: a weekend, we went out on the patio because they're portable,

55
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 1: you can cook at the patio, and we put things

56
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 1: in the microwave you're not supposed to put things you're

57
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,280
Speaker 1: not supposed to put in there, like we did the

58
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: egg and watched it explode. We put a CD in

59
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,320
Speaker 1: there and watched it spin and spark. That was fun. Um. Yeah,

60
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 1: we just did silly thing, nothing like cruel or dangerous. Truly,

61
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 1: we were, you know, very ready. Brian Is I call

62
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,440
Speaker 1: him safety Pup because he's very into like always being safe.

63
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 1: So he had the the fire extinguisher at the ready,

64
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,400
Speaker 1: and we just played and it was very silly and

65
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,800
Speaker 1: a great start to our marriage. But um, there are

66
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 1: some interesting video explainers online if you've ever wondered about

67
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: that whole You shouldn't put metal in the microware, Yeah,

68
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 1: because you can, but it's not real smart. It will

69
00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 1: basically cause it to spark, and if it's something like

70
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,560
Speaker 1: a four that has sharp edges, sometimes those sparks get

71
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,480
Speaker 1: a little more intense and they can cause a fire,

72
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 1: and that's why you shouldn't do it. Also, the metal

73
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,360
Speaker 1: will actually block your microwaves, so you're not going to

74
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: cook your food if you put it in a metal

75
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 1: dish in there. Um, but like the walls of your

76
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: microwave are metal, and they're obviously not exploding all the time.

77
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: So there's some there's a combo of myth and nuance

78
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,479
Speaker 1: in play. Yeah. Yeah, but boy, I'd be lost without

79
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,720
Speaker 1: my microwave. Same. I mean, I I there's a lot

80
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,920
Speaker 1: of reheating that happens in our microwave, including the coffee

81
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 1: that I didn't finish and now it's cold and I

82
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: wanted to be warm again. Uh, that kind of stuff

83
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about, like how revolutionary it was and

84
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 1: what it would take to feel that same thing regarding

85
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,919
Speaker 1: cooking today. And I was like, it really is like

86
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 1: if someone was like, no, you're going to cook in

87
00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 1: a hologram, like it would Yeah. So which is the

88
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,080
Speaker 1: most subtle Bob's Burger's reference I have ever made be

89
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: made on the show? Um, for any anybody that listens,

90
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,280
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. Um, But yeah, I

91
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 1: just it's an astonishing um thing to think about how

92
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,600
Speaker 1: quickly it changed the way people perceived the work of

93
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: the kitchen and changed it. And it's very you know

94
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:24,520
Speaker 1: in those Kitchen of Tomorrow newsreels. Well, and it also

95
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 1: makes me think about how um, like there are a

96
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,640
Speaker 1: lot of folks who are microwave is a lot more

97
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,040
Speaker 1: accessible than any other way you might like people who

98
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 1: are in shelters or emergency housing a lot of times

99
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: like that's that's what you've got, Like you can't have

100
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: the things, um, and so that like it feeds into

101
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 1: criticisms that people have about convenience foods, and it's like

102
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 1: for a lot of folks, the convenience foods are the

103
00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,360
Speaker 1: ones that are available to them, so chill well, and

104
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,280
Speaker 1: they're also like if you were on a very very

105
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: tight budget and just starting out a household and for

106
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,320
Speaker 1: some reason you did not have a stove war range.

107
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,480
Speaker 1: A microwave is usually a lot more affordable, um and

108
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,200
Speaker 1: an easier way to like make sure you have access

109
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,760
Speaker 1: to hot food than if you had to buy an

110
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 1: entire new, much larger appliance. UM. And now there you know.

111
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,960
Speaker 1: You can get a microwave for quite cheap these days.

112
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: It may not have very many bells and whistles, but

113
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,080
Speaker 1: you can get your food warm, um microwaves. How we

114
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 1: love you, Ruth Wakefield. Yeah, I feel some ways about her,

115
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 1: And I will tell you a story. And I didn't

116
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: include this in the episode because it was a story

117
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,840
Speaker 1: that was given to like a leisure magazine anonymously by

118
00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,080
Speaker 1: someone who said they worked in her restaurant. So it's

119
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,800
Speaker 1: not one that you can easily verify. But it falls

120
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,080
Speaker 1: so much in line with all of the other things

121
00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,200
Speaker 1: that people have said about her over the years that

122
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 1: I I think it's it bears merit to discuss it. Um.

123
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,800
Speaker 1: According to this, Ruth, in running the toll house in

124
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,520
Speaker 1: was a real stickler about employees not taking any food. Yeah,

125
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 1: which I have feelings about to begin with, that's a

126
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,640
Speaker 1: whole other thing. Um, Like at the end of the night,

127
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 1: if there were leftovers, they went in the trash. Yeah,

128
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 1: which I feel ways about. Yes, I think we both do, um,

129
00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 1: And I'm sure in her head that was part of

130
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 1: quality control and like no one will ever see anything

131
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,040
Speaker 1: from toll House that's been reheated, blah blah blah blah.

132
00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 1: But anyway, there's also some food safety stuff that's legitimate.

133
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 1: But that's totally valid. Yes, But apparently there was a night,

134
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 1: according to this interview, um, where Ruth was not in

135
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 1: the restaurant for some reason, and so several of the

136
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 1: employees were like, I would really like some cookies at

137
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 1: the end of the shift, and so they had asked

138
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 1: the kitchen like, hey, when the when we closed for

139
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,080
Speaker 1: the night, whatever's left, will you just put him aside

140
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 1: for us? And they then ate them after the restaurant

141
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 1: had closed and Ruth came in and according to this person,

142
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: she did not say a word. She looked each of

143
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,960
Speaker 1: them in the eye, looked at each of their plates,

144
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 1: never said anything about it. But the next week there

145
00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: was a deduction in all of their pay for the

146
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: amount of the cookies they had eaten. And I'm like

147
00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:27,720
Speaker 1: Ruth for real. I mean, first of all, if you

148
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 1: think about a restaurant's overhead for like what even if

149
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: it were a couple dozen cookies a successful restaurant, it's nothing.

150
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,280
Speaker 1: And if you have good staff, treat them nicely so

151
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,719
Speaker 1: they'll stay your stat like it's it's striking to me

152
00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 1: how many former employees wanted to talk to the press

153
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 1: all the time right right well, And it's in addition

154
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,960
Speaker 1: to the like kindness and fairness to staff. Food waste

155
00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: is a big problem. It is a big problem about hunger.

156
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 1: It's a big problem about climate. Like it's a big

157
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 1: problem that's threaded through a lot of stuff. There are

158
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 1: some misperceptions about what grocery store chains will and will

159
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,440
Speaker 1: not participate in food rescue programs, which gets on right,

160
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 1: because if you're running one of those, it's hard to

161
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,600
Speaker 1: get started. And I don't want people to be discouraged

162
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,520
Speaker 1: from approaching an entire chain because people have wrongfully said

163
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,559
Speaker 1: on Twitter that they don't do that, but like that

164
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 1: kind of stuff being like nope, you can't even eat that,

165
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 1: We're just gonna throw it in the trash. I hate it.

166
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,839
Speaker 1: Me too. I get it when it's based in the

167
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 1: fact of that has been sitting out for more than

168
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 1: four hours, it's no longer safe to eat, or that

169
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,679
Speaker 1: was on somebody's plate, and that's a hepatitis risk, Like

170
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:49,000
Speaker 1: that's legitimate shower. But these are literally cookies that would

171
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,839
Speaker 1: have been already have have a longer yeah life, Like

172
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,920
Speaker 1: you can eat a cookie that's been sitting out generally. Yeah,

173
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,880
Speaker 1: And they weren't given they were literally like put them aside,

174
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,880
Speaker 1: whatever's left over, because we would like to eat them

175
00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,280
Speaker 1: instead of throw them out. Yeah, they do have a

176
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 1: very nice shelf life. There what my mother would send

177
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,280
Speaker 1: me as a care package at various points in my life.

178
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,400
Speaker 1: And also what one of the things that my mother

179
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,280
Speaker 1: did before I was born. My dad was in the

180
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,160
Speaker 1: army and he was stationed in Alaska, and like me,

181
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 1: as we just discussed and we were talking about Ernest Jackton.

182
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 1: I don't like the cold, I don't like the dark.

183
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,080
Speaker 1: Neither did my mom, and so she would bake chocolate

184
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,960
Speaker 1: chip cookies every week to make the house smell nice.

185
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 1: There's almost nothing that smells better. Do you have a

186
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,719
Speaker 1: favorite chocolate chip cookie recipe? I do, and it is

187
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 1: my mom's and it's similar to the toll house recipe

188
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: from the back of the package. I don't put nuts

189
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,160
Speaker 1: in there because I don't want them. Um, But like

190
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: there's some dry ingredient measurements that are slightly different than

191
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,319
Speaker 1: what's on the back of the package currently, So like,

192
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,079
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's an older version of the

193
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 1: back of the package Nestlee recipe or if it's something

194
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 1: that my mom fine tunes. Um. But I generally put

195
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,319
Speaker 1: extra chocolate chips in there instead of nuts, so I

196
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:14,719
Speaker 1: have a trick. My favorite chocolate chip cookie recipe is

197
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,600
Speaker 1: a riff on the one from the Wookie Cookies cookbook,

198
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,439
Speaker 1: which was like the first official Star Wars cookbook. Um,

199
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 1: which is a delicious chocolate chip cookie. It is made

200
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 1: with a cinnamon in it, and it is half milk

201
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,240
Speaker 1: chocolate chips and half dark chocolate chips. Um. But listen,

202
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 1: I normally am gonna always want salty and buttery things,

203
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 1: but when I want something sweet, I really want it

204
00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,679
Speaker 1: cloying lee sweet, so dark chocolate get on out of

205
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 1: here and instead goes in butter scotch chips. Um. It's

206
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: such a rich and beautiful cookie at that point because

207
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 1: the cinnamon in the butter scots just elevate the whole

208
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,160
Speaker 1: thing and give it like layers of flavor. And can

209
00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,800
Speaker 1: I tell you a story that unites both halfs of

210
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,080
Speaker 1: of this episode. Yes. Um. So, when I was living

211
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,959
Speaker 1: in Somerville, Massachusetts, we were on the top floor of

212
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,480
Speaker 1: a brick building that did not have a lot of shade,

213
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: and our kitchen became so unbelievably hot that we would

214
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,080
Speaker 1: go to great links to figure out how we would

215
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 1: eat for the day without having to turn the oven

216
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:28,679
Speaker 1: on fair which microwave right. So one day we were

217
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,679
Speaker 1: at the grocery store and my spouse, who I love,

218
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 1: decided he wanted chocolate chip cookies. And it was nineties

219
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,440
Speaker 1: something degrees, which meant it was well beyond a hundred

220
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, and I was like, why are you

221
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 1: going to turn the oven on? This makes no sense.

222
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 1: He said, I just really want them, and I said okay,

223
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,560
Speaker 1: And so we got home, we unloaded all the groceries,

224
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:56,199
Speaker 1: and again I love him, he left the chocolate chip

225
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 1: bag in the kitchen, so when he went to make

226
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,719
Speaker 1: his cookies, it was liquid um. And so what he

227
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 1: made was chocolate cookies with the chocolate like just infused

228
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,600
Speaker 1: all through it and that was delicious also still yummy.

229
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,040
Speaker 1: I don't I think at no point ever again after that,

230
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 1: before we moved out of the apartment, did he ever

231
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 1: want to turn the oven on when it was that hot?

232
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,720
Speaker 1: I love to bake in thankfully. Um Last year at

233
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,360
Speaker 1: Christmas I got a much nicer range because the one

234
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 1: that we got was like when we first moved into

235
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,079
Speaker 1: this house was like the very cheapest gas range we

236
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,480
Speaker 1: could get, and it just like, even though it was

237
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 1: new at the time, it was it was such a

238
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,679
Speaker 1: low end model that like it didn't always heat consistently,

239
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 1: it was just And now I feel like for the

240
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 1: last year and a half I have had like the

241
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,800
Speaker 1: bliss of a really reliable, good oven and like it's

242
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:10,679
Speaker 1: cookie time all the time. Yeah. Yeah. This week on

243
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,320
Speaker 1: the show, we talked about Ivy lad Better Lee, who

244
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 1: represented a lot of people and industries and organizations on

245
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,960
Speaker 1: what I would just as a personal feeling, I feel

246
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 1: like was the wrong side, like when a lot of

247
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: miners get shot at or killed in the middle of

248
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:38,480
Speaker 1: a labor dispute, going to represent the minds Uh, Sure,

249
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 1: there's an argument that everybody involved deserves to have some

250
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 1: uh some you know, competent representation. But man, there were

251
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: just so many things in his background that were like

252
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:57,920
Speaker 1: and then this industry that was, you know, forcing workers

253
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,600
Speaker 1: in the mind to build them mine, but only paying

254
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,720
Speaker 1: them for substances they actually mind, so like any work

255
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 1: they were doing building the mind went unpaid. Uh, then

256
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 1: making an argument to be like why that was an

257
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,960
Speaker 1: actually good and reasonable thing to do. I was not

258
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 1: fond of that at all. No, I mean, it's it's interesting, right,

259
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:27,720
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by his work and in some ways, like

260
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,160
Speaker 1: I just have an aversion even though I know at

261
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: this point it is a part of the world we

262
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 1: live in. I'm I'm fascinated and picked out by the

263
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 1: manipulation of public opinion in general. Yeah, but in his case,

264
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,000
Speaker 1: I mean, there were obviously it's there are times when

265
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 1: he was he seemed to be trying to do things

266
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 1: that were, um not horrible, but then other times where

267
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,600
Speaker 1: he was perfectly comfortable sidling up to people who were

268
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: doing things that were in fact objectively horrible pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, Well,

269
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 1: and some of his things that seemed more more positive

270
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 1: as far as a contribution to the world still had

271
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 1: this sort of UM. Underside to them were like his

272
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 1: work with the Red Cross was about increasing knowledge of

273
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 1: the Red Cross, increasing public support of the Red Cross.

274
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,080
Speaker 1: The work that the Red Cross was doing during the

275
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: war was so critically important, but it was also about

276
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 1: making the United States and the Allies look good. So

277
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 1: it was like there was that layer of motivation to

278
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 1: it also. Um. There were a few things that came

279
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,680
Speaker 1: up in the research for this that we didn't get

280
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: into in the episode. UM for a number of reasons. One,

281
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: when his mother and his father met, his mother was

282
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: disturbingly young. She was twelve. She was not fourteen yet

283
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,320
Speaker 1: when she had her first child, and none of the

284
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 1: biographical treatments that I have read really discussed that at all.

285
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 1: But I was like, holy cow, I know married ages

286
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,200
Speaker 1: have varied over time, but she was so young when

287
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,000
Speaker 1: they met that he wasn't allowed to court her in

288
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,679
Speaker 1: the parlor. He was teaching her Bible verses in the kitchen.

289
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:17,040
Speaker 1: And that, oh, that all creaked me out a lot.

290
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 1: I UM, yeah, and that like we have no I

291
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: have no not if if her feelings on that are

292
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: really documented anywhere. I I have not ever been able

293
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 1: to find them. UM. Where I read about that was

294
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 1: in the only biography of him that exists, which was

295
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 1: written in the sixties after his personal papers were given

296
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: to Princeton. Before that, it was really hard for anybody

297
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,000
Speaker 1: to find enough information on him to really write a biography.

298
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: Um that first press release. It's not really mentioned by

299
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 1: that first biographer at all that I found, And so

300
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,440
Speaker 1: that seems like something that has been something a connection

301
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: that people made later on, possibly because that was written

302
00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. And so I found it really

303
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 1: interesting that this piece that a lot of people are like,

304
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,400
Speaker 1: this is a hallmark of his career, just doesn't appear

305
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,840
Speaker 1: in his biography unless I totally missed it somewhere. Well,

306
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,359
Speaker 1: it's possible to write, like, I wonder how much we

307
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 1: think about a press release as a an essential part

308
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 1: of any publicity campaign or pr campaign, Whereas then it

309
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: still probably would have been common, but not like you

310
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 1: can't do it without one of these. So it may

311
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,480
Speaker 1: not have seemed as momentous through the lens of his

312
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,120
Speaker 1: initial biographer does when we look back and see, oh,

313
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,920
Speaker 1: now literally everyone does it, and you started it, yeah,

314
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 1: and uh, and newspapers printing stuff from press releases without

315
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 1: questioning it like that continues to be a thing that

316
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,680
Speaker 1: happens today and continues to be a source of like

317
00:18:51,960 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 1: sekewed information coming out today. Yeah, for sure. The last

318
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 1: thing that I was trying to figure out how to

319
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 1: put into the episode and I just could not put that.

320
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't find a good place for it to go.

321
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 1: He appeared before a lot of different committees and investigations

322
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: that was like, Hey, this huge incident happened. We're trying

323
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of what happened. It seems

324
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: like this Ivy League guy was maybe manipulating the press.

325
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 1: We should talk to him. And very often the questioning

326
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 1: started with what is your profession, and repeatedly Ivy Lee's

327
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:42,160
Speaker 1: answer was basically, I don't know. Um like his answer

328
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 1: answered that before. Yeah, his answer would be uh, sort

329
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 1: of like, well, it's hard to describe, and then he

330
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,399
Speaker 1: would kind of talk around what he was doing for

331
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know, I can sort of

332
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 1: I can. I can definitely see having that happened once.

333
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 1: But maybe as it became clear that he was going

334
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 1: to be called before a committee over and over again

335
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: over the course of his career, it might have been

336
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: good to put together a brief statement to describe his profession,

337
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: but he didn't want to because then they could ask

338
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: follow ups. Um At the transcripts for the the hearing

339
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: about his association with the with the Nazis and the

340
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: German government. Um, parts of it are like really just

341
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: trying to be like, what is your job though? Can

342
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 1: you tell us what your job is? Well? I advise people, okay,

343
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 1: but how? And then I don't know if anybody else

344
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: listens to the podcast maintenance phase. It's a podcast I

345
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 1: really love. And a thing that happens on that show

346
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 1: sometimes is that one of the hosts, Michael, will send

347
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: the other host, Aubrey Um, something to read aloud, and

348
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 1: Aubrey's voice sometimes we'll just have this like increasing escalation

349
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 1: of horror and bafflement at what she's reading. And that

350
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: was what my brain was doing as I was reading

351
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 1: a lot of his testimony, because it would be like

352
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: it would start out like, yes, I was working with

353
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: this Die Trust, and it would just get farther and

354
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: farther into something that was unacceptable. Yeah, I was telling

355
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 1: the Die Trust how to maybe make Americans stop boycotting them,

356
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: and my mind would just be like this increasingly uh

357
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: loud uh, and an astonished and horrified statement of what

358
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: was just apparently coming out of his mouth and seemingly

359
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 1: just not not really batting an eye over what he

360
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 1: was saying out loud in front of a congressional committee. Yeah,

361
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 1: I wonder, I mean, we'll never know, right, we can't

362
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 1: go back in time and interview him, And I wonder

363
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: if his is one of those cases where he maybe

364
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: got into the business true believing that he was going

365
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: to uphold that statement he wrote about, like no, we're

366
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 1: going to tell the truth, We're going to be transparent,

367
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But then you know, people become I

368
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 1: don't want to say people become jaded, because I think

369
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 1: sometimes some of those shifts in like your integrity can

370
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: happen in such tiny increments that you don't realize it's

371
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: happening over time, and then it's like too late, and

372
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: you've internalized it as a normalcy and it's just like, yeah,

373
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: I listen, I don't really know what I do. People

374
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: ask me to help, and I help, and no, I

375
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: don't know. Uh. Yeah, I think they hated Jews. I

376
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: don't know. I just wanted them to look good. To

377
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: the US, Like what like if he told that to

378
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: his original nineteen o six self, what would that conversation

379
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: have been. Yeah, it's a good question. I there I

380
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: read a couple of references that allow edged that he

381
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: told ig Farben that they needed to cut their ties

382
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: with the Nazi Party, which would not have been possible

383
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: for ig Farban to do. But I also was like,

384
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: I don't actually see that reflected in these statements there. Um,

385
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: there are a couple of things where I feel like

386
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: people really want to try to rehabilitate him because he

387
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: was such a foundational part of a whole industry that

388
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: still exists today, and that there are things that float

389
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: around about him that are like not totally accurate. Like

390
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: there are people that say, yeah, he was totally distributing

391
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: all kinds of Nazi propaganda in the US. That doesn't

392
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 1: seem to be true. Um, But at the same time,

393
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,719
Speaker 1: I just do not agree that you can give him

394
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:54,959
Speaker 1: a pass on representing representing the Nazi government via ig Farben.

395
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 1: That I don't think you can give somebody a pass

396
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: on that. Well it it's telling right in that testimony

397
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,959
Speaker 1: what he says is I told them that like anti

398
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: jewishness would not fly in the US. Not this is wrong.

399
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: What the hell you gotta stop doing it? Oh? I

400
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: told him they couldn't tell you they do that, Like

401
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: that's a very different situation. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, many

402
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: years ago, I went to a Stuff you Should Know

403
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: Live show, and I think the topic was public relations, UM,

404
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: and he mentioned he being Josh or check I don't

405
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: remember which of them, mentioned somebody somebody in the long

406
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: ago history of public relations, and somebody cheered, and Josh

407
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: was like, you're gonna want to take that back anyway,

408
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 1: if you're publicist. This episode was not a personal slide

409
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: against you. UM. Anyway. So it's Friday. I hope everybody

410
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: has a great weekend lined up, whatever is happening on

411
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: your plates. I hope if anybody sends some spin your

412
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: way that is blatantly untrue, that you're able to see

413
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: through it. Uh. Send us a note if you like

414
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: for a history podcast that I heart radio dot com

415
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: and we will be around tomorrow with a Saturday classic

416
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: and Monday with a brand new episode. Stuff You Missed

417
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of I Heart Radio.

418
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I

419
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: heart radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to

420
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.