Speaker 1: On today's episode of Ticket of the Draft podcast, we
Speaker 1: talked top fives plus one. We talk about guys that
Speaker 1: can bend, that can goes, guys that tackle on I
Speaker 1: think we come to conclusion we just like football players, Jason,
Speaker 1: Guys that are tough, nitty gritty, and it all starts
Speaker 1: right now. Welcome to the Ticket of the Draft Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Logan Paulson with just the Guy Jason. It just
Speaker 1: reminder you were brought to you by Sea Geek, the
Speaker 1: official primary ticketing partner of the Washington Commanders. And on
Speaker 1: today's show, we are talking top five plus one at
Speaker 1: every defensive position, and make sure you guys stay tuned
Speaker 1: for next week. Also because we have Connor Rodgers from
Speaker 1: PFF NFL Stock Exchange, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's onn that with Trevor Sigma. He's also for
Speaker 2: NBC Sports.
Speaker 1: Right, and so he does that, and obviously that's Jason.
Speaker 1: Just to guy, Jason, here's me, and we are going
Speaker 1: to give you our ultimate Defensive Draft Guide basically today
Speaker 1: with the top five at every position.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is basically part two. We did offense last week,
Speaker 2: we're doing it this week for all defensive positions. So yeah,
Speaker 2: top five plus one plus one being that person that
Speaker 2: you're inviting to the wedding. They're not they don't know
Speaker 2: the brider groom. They're just like somebody that you want
Speaker 2: to hang out with and you're there. So like this
Speaker 2: plus one is maybe not is not number six in
Speaker 2: our top ranking, may not even be in the top
Speaker 2: ten or the top twenty. It's just a guy we
Speaker 2: want to talk about because maybe they're gonna be invited
Speaker 2: to the party here in Washington.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's that's a that's a
Speaker 1: great description. So do what do you want to start?
Speaker 1: You want to start with interior defensive lineman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's start with interior defensive line before we start
Speaker 2: with what they want to ask you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is how hard is it for you
Speaker 1: to watch defensive football players online? Insanely It's insanely hard.
Speaker 2: So, well, two things, all right, So you're gonna have
Speaker 2: a different experience with this than me because I don't
Speaker 2: know what I'm talking about. I'm just a guy. So
Speaker 2: like offense, I feel like I have a better grip
Speaker 2: one when I watch it.
Speaker 1: There's also more stuff, there's more well.
Speaker 2: There's more data points, right, But also like when you're
Speaker 2: a fan of football, like, that's.
Speaker 1: What that's what you watch.
Speaker 2: That's what you're watching.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So if I'm sitting there and I'm watching the Manders
Speaker 2: on Sunday and I'm watching it in real time, I'm
Speaker 2: watching what the offense is doing, even when we're on defense.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, you're not watching what the defense is doing.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why I have to go back to
Speaker 1: see that. That's how I watch film usually too. I
Speaker 1: watch offensive football, like I'm an offensive player. I do
Speaker 1: watch some defensive stuff, but even just the way they
Speaker 1: shoot the games on the on the TV, they kind
Speaker 1: of cut the back end of the defense off there,
Speaker 1: which is the one of the more important parts of
Speaker 1: the defense to see. And so for this evaluation, for
Speaker 1: some of the defensive linemen, it's easy because they're always
Speaker 1: in the shot on the TV copy. But for some
Speaker 1: of these corners, some of these linebackers, some of these safeties,
Speaker 1: it was it is slim pickens. You're watching every scrap
Speaker 1: of information you can find on the internet for like
Speaker 1: maybe ten plays total. So it's gonna be tough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the thing, especially with d lineman
Speaker 2: or linebackers, especially as you never hear their name get
Speaker 2: called unless they either screw up or do a good play,
Speaker 2: and that's that's very rare in the game as far
Speaker 2: as data points, like if you're a wide receiver on
Speaker 2: a on a good team, like if you're draftable wide receiver,
Speaker 2: you're getting ten targets, eight catches somewhere in there. So
Speaker 2: there's like a lot of data points that's going on
Speaker 2: in the game. You could be an outstanding interior defensive interior.
Speaker 2: You don't get a sack that game, and you get
Speaker 2: maybe two tackles for a loss, so that you're only
Speaker 2: getting your name called twice. But when you go back
Speaker 2: and watch them, like like what you're saying, you watch
Speaker 2: every snap, every play, this guy affected the game in
Speaker 2: a great way and you do a good job. Actually,
Speaker 2: on our command center shows when we break down film,
Speaker 2: when it's like all right, break down Deron pain for
Speaker 2: this game. He needn't get a sack, But look at
Speaker 2: how this guy's affecting this game. Right, You're not going
Speaker 2: to hear his name called on this play, but he's
Speaker 2: causing this bad throw. He's causing the quarterback or the
Speaker 2: running back to bounce out where Jamon is standing to
Speaker 2: wrap him up, Like, and we just hear Jamon get
Speaker 2: called in the game. Because it's happening so fast, you
Speaker 2: don't expect the color commentators to pick up on that stuff.
Speaker 2: But when you logan go back and rewatch that film,
Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, Jamen made a great play here, not
Speaker 2: taking anything away. This is a dron pain though, right,
Speaker 2: and like, uh, you do a great job of that
Speaker 2: on Command Center all our fancial checkout Command Center, especially
Speaker 2: in season when you do your film breakdowns.
Speaker 1: Thanks. Man, that's very nice to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 2: Defense is really hard.
Speaker 1: It's really hard. It's uh, it's yeah, it's it's tough.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna give you our best guests here, best
Speaker 1: estimations because we like I said, I've watched a ton
Speaker 1: of film on a lot of these guys. Now, the
Speaker 1: juice isn't always worth the squeeze, you know, for some
Speaker 1: of these corners. Like I said, I've watched four or
Speaker 1: five games like whatever, I can find a couple of
Speaker 1: highlights and it's the same four or five plays. Right,
Speaker 1: There's just not a lot to go off of. So
Speaker 1: we're kind of going off of Combine Senior Bowl all
Speaker 1: the stuff we've been to, but we're gonna give you
Speaker 1: our best take care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's do five to one. Okay, we'll start
Speaker 2: with defensive interior and I'll go first, number five to
Speaker 2: and Andre Sweat.
Speaker 1: That's my dude. That's your dude from Texas.
Speaker 2: Number four, Rouke o'roo from Clemson. All right. Three Brandon
Speaker 2: Fisk from Florida State.
Speaker 1: Two j J Jaz Right is it jus On? It's
Speaker 1: from Illinois.
Speaker 2: And number one Byron Murphy the second from Texas.
Speaker 1: Crushed it. So I'm pretty much the same as you.
Speaker 1: I've got Jandre Sweat from Texas. At five, I got
Speaker 1: Chris Jenkins. That's the only difference in our list. You have,
Speaker 1: Ruca Roro. I have Chris Jenkins from Michigan, Braden Fist
Speaker 1: from Florida State, Jason Newton from Illinois, and Byron Murphy
Speaker 1: from Texas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about our differences. You want to
Speaker 2: kick it off with Chris Jenkins from Michigan.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Chris Jenkins is a guy that I just when
Speaker 1: you watch him, I feel like he's got a lot
Speaker 1: of kind of NFL feel, if that makes sense. Like
Speaker 1: he uses his hands very well. He knows how to
Speaker 1: penetrate the gap. He's an excellent run defender. At the Combine,
Speaker 1: he tested better than I expect that and a lot
Speaker 1: of people were disappointed. But you know, he runs a
Speaker 1: four to nine. He's almost he think he's over three
Speaker 1: hundred pounds three zho five, so big athlete that I
Speaker 1: think has not quite tapped his potential as a pass
Speaker 1: rusher yet. In that Michigan defense, they really don't allow
Speaker 1: those guys to rush. You know, they're kind of a
Speaker 1: blitz heavy scheme and those guys are stunting and looping.
Speaker 1: But when you watch him fight, like defend the run,
Speaker 1: he is an excellent run defender, which makes me think
Speaker 1: he's got a very low floor. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: his dad, obviously, Jenkins played for the Panthers, played for
Speaker 1: the Jets way back in the day. He's got this
Speaker 1: NFL p pedigree, so he's been there, he's done that,
Speaker 1: he's been around it. I just feel like he's a
Speaker 1: guy that's a very safe prospect with some high athletic
Speaker 1: upside compared to Rucro who again I like his film
Speaker 1: a lot. Again, a big, high ceiling type of guy,
Speaker 1: but I feel like there was a little bit of
Speaker 1: inconsistency in terms of kind of his consistent awareness. That again,
Speaker 1: I like him a lot. He's probably my sixth or
Speaker 1: seventh guy if there's on this list, so he's very close.
Speaker 1: But I just I just felt like Chris Jenkins was
Speaker 1: such a get on base type of pick. And it's
Speaker 1: it makes it easier because I think he's I think
Speaker 1: he's got a high, high ceiling as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I like Chris Jenkins too. It's not like
Speaker 2: I don't and he goes right there. Yeah, No, I understand.
Speaker 2: He's very good against double teams. I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 2: what I wrote down. Good against double teams. He's pretty
Speaker 2: quick with his first step to get across the face, right,
Speaker 2: So not necessarily exactly, that's a great way. Yes, that's
Speaker 2: where they use it. And he might be the strongest dude.
Speaker 1: He's very powerful.
Speaker 2: He shoves people around no problem, makes him look like
Speaker 2: rag dolls. But I did have that his pass rush,
Speaker 2: that first step explosive. It's up there a little lacking
Speaker 2: I think in this class. And it's almost like he
Speaker 2: his arm or hand placement sometimes gets a little off.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's because he has shorter arms
Speaker 2: or it's not a right technique. It looks like you
Speaker 2: just he can get out leveraged with his pads sometimes.
Speaker 2: That's what it looks like to me.
Speaker 1: No, I think as a pass rusher doesn't. He doesn't
Speaker 1: have that feel yet. But I think when you see
Speaker 1: the athletic traits for the position, that's what I'm banking on, right,
Speaker 1: And I think it's you know, what you describe there
Speaker 1: is kind of the opposite like Ruca Roro. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's a great run defender necessarily, Yeah, but he
Speaker 1: does flash pretty consistently as a pass rusher because he's
Speaker 1: six ' five, he's three oh five. He runs well,
Speaker 1: he bends well. He's kind of got that feel, that
Speaker 1: length in that feel. But again, like I think both
Speaker 1: these guys are gonna get on the field early in
Speaker 1: their careers as kind of early down run players. And
Speaker 1: I think Chris Jenkins the path is just like he's
Speaker 1: pro ready in that area. Yeah, and I think he'll
Speaker 1: grow more quickly because he's gonna get more opportunities than
Speaker 1: Rook Roro early.
Speaker 2: I hear you, And speaking of Ruke who was my
Speaker 2: guy at number four, I agree with you on everything
Speaker 2: you said I have here that like he looks in
Speaker 2: pass rush like maybe a one trick pony. He does
Speaker 2: his speed handswipe thing. I don't know what it's technically called,
Speaker 2: but he does it almost he does it all the
Speaker 2: time where he like jumps real quick and then one.
Speaker 1: Of these like it's like a quick swim, yeah, tight.
Speaker 2: Swim and if he if that doesn't work, it doesn't
Speaker 2: look like he has much else. He doesn't have a counter,
Speaker 2: he doesn't have much else.
Speaker 1: He's a little bit of like like well I use
Speaker 1: this term to describe like raw athletes. He's like a
Speaker 1: wild horse, like he's a big great point. He's out
Speaker 1: there just kind of run around and plays hard. I
Speaker 1: mean like, I mean, I like the player. It's just
Speaker 1: he's got a lot of potential. I think. Again, it's
Speaker 1: it's apples to apples here really because they both have
Speaker 1: their issues. But the consistency that Chris Jenkins plays with,
Speaker 1: if there's a professionalism there that I'm going to bet
Speaker 1: on just a little bit. And again it's it's again
Speaker 1: it's six and one a half dozen in the other
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But that's kind of how I feel.
Speaker 2: Well, the reason I like ruke is because he has
Speaker 2: low center of gravity, doesn't look like he ever loses
Speaker 2: balance even when he is getting pushed around, like what
Speaker 2: I was talking about, Like great going in there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: excellent athlete. He has great pursuit and doesn't give up,
Speaker 2: like he'll keep going even if it looks like he's
Speaker 2: out of the play. You'll come out of nowhere on
Speaker 2: the back end, he just keeps ustling. Yeah, and he
Speaker 2: does have a good first step with like he's a
Speaker 2: good tach.
Speaker 1: Yah, he's in the rookie.
Speaker 2: He's a good player.
Speaker 1: He's a good player, and the athleticism there is exciting.
Speaker 1: So when you put him at four, not mad at,
Speaker 1: I just think there's the consistency, is what I'm betting on.
Speaker 1: With Chris Akins. I wanted to ask you about Gisean
Speaker 1: Newton just because he's a guy that I'm having a
Speaker 1: hard time categorizing. And I put him ahead of Braid
Speaker 1: and Fist because I think he's got better measurables, like
Speaker 1: more NFL ready measurables. But everyone talks about him as
Speaker 1: being this explosive, disruptive football player, and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: that I always see that.
Speaker 2: Well. Interesting, and here's what I got for him. I
Speaker 2: have that he has a nice burse off the line,
Speaker 2: which makes him pretty darn good in the run game.
Speaker 2: I think he has good feet that doesn't stop turning.
Speaker 2: His feet never go flat. He's constantly moving those feet
Speaker 2: and churning a good hand movement. Looks like he has
Speaker 2: good placement here, but he will get caught up and
Speaker 2: shoved around every now and then. I don't know if
Speaker 2: so he's listed as six to two two ninety five,
Speaker 2: maybe he's getting shoved around again because I'm not sure
Speaker 2: if like he's got I don't dense right. I don't
Speaker 2: know if he's dense right. Maybe he doesn't anchor down
Speaker 2: enough when he needs to, so I'm not sure what
Speaker 2: that is. And I think that's the thing about him.
Speaker 1: I think the thing with Yeah, I like that. I
Speaker 1: like that description. And then he's not like a top
Speaker 1: shelf athlete. I don't think like when you watch him,
Speaker 1: it's interesting watching him because he's a little stiff, doesn't
Speaker 1: bend super well. He is disruptive, but he's not, you know,
Speaker 1: overly powerful. He's not overly quick. He does flash, so
Speaker 1: I don't like it when you watch his highlight only
Speaker 1: flash time he does flash, but there's like this kind
Speaker 1: of those those moments of inconsistency, which I find really
Speaker 1: hard to categorize. But I do think he is more
Speaker 1: disruptive than a guy like Braden Fisk, who again is
Speaker 1: one of my favorite players in the entire draft. And
Speaker 1: then obviously Byron Murphy is a guy that I just
Speaker 1: cannot I just think he's going to be an excellent pro.
Speaker 1: I just think the way he bends, the way he moves,
Speaker 1: his strength, he's got good hand usage. I think he's disruptive.
Speaker 1: He's got a good motor, and that's to me why
Speaker 1: he might be. I think there's a world where he's
Speaker 1: the first defensive players like that. I don't think that's
Speaker 1: very likely, but I think there's an opportunity for that
Speaker 1: to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you, complete with him. The only
Speaker 2: the only question I have about him is he's he
Speaker 2: seems small. He looks small.
Speaker 1: I mean he's not tall, right, he's like six foot
Speaker 1: or six. What is it? What is his list at
Speaker 1: six one?
Speaker 2: He's listed at six to one. He's three oh eight,
Speaker 2: so there's weight there. But the six to one on
Speaker 2: his arm length I think is fine. But uh, it
Speaker 2: looks like to me, right, he's not great with range
Speaker 2: and speed side to side, looks like he runs out
Speaker 2: of gas a little bit and he fell down a lot.
Speaker 1: He does fall down a lot. Yeah, he's super athletic,
Speaker 1: but falls down. And I don't love that. I don't
Speaker 1: love when I see that.
Speaker 2: But these are nipigy things because he's my number one guy, right,
Speaker 2: I agree with you completely. When I watch him, it's like,
Speaker 2: this dude can be dominant.
Speaker 1: I forget what cut up I watch, but just his
Speaker 1: ability to get hands on guys, get to a low,
Speaker 1: like one knee position, almost like shock and shed, while
Speaker 1: also having some pass rush ability. He feels very raw
Speaker 1: to me. But I do think he's a guy that
Speaker 1: athletically like. I was just so impressed with though how
Speaker 1: he moved at the combine. I was impressed with his film.
Speaker 1: He just I think he To me, it's it's you're
Speaker 1: betting on traits and you're hoping that he gets coached
Speaker 1: up and detailed up, because I think he's a pretty
Speaker 1: good football player already. But I think there's more to
Speaker 1: tap into there for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, all right. The last guy I definitely want
Speaker 2: to talk about in this is cave Andre Sweat because
Speaker 2: I can't talk about he's one of my guys there.
Speaker 2: If you listen to this podcast regularly, A thank you,
Speaker 2: b you know, I have my guys. Like I said, guy,
Speaker 2: I can't.
Speaker 1: I was just looking at you guys are there.
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't quit it. And it's at some
Speaker 2: point I'm just going with my gut and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: bet on these guys and if they turn out, then
Speaker 2: I'm gonna hang my hat on it. If they don't,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be like, oh, it was my first time,
Speaker 2: so I'm not so, you know, don't put too much
Speaker 2: weight on it. But I love Devondre Sweat. He's huge.
Speaker 2: He he runs out of gas right, He's perpetually one
Speaker 2: e with the blinking light. But that first burst for
Speaker 2: someone his size, reading at three sixty two is incredible.
Speaker 2: He clogs up the middle. He's not gonna play every play,
Speaker 2: but he is going to be an excellent run stopper
Speaker 2: for you and goal line sets. Good luck trying to
Speaker 2: go up the middle with him. One of the things
Speaker 2: I wanted to say about him is Danny Kelly at
Speaker 2: the Ringer does a great job with comps I think
Speaker 2: I showed this to you, and his comp was the
Speaker 2: ever given And if you don't know what the ever
Speaker 2: given is, that is the crater ship, the that got
Speaker 2: stuck in the right. That's what he is.
Speaker 1: He's huge.
Speaker 2: He doesn't move fast, but he is going to clog
Speaker 2: everything up. Good luck getting through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the thing that impressed me is he's not
Speaker 1: just a big guy. He's got pretty good hand usage too.
Speaker 1: Like his ability to kind of like attack the playside
Speaker 1: pad of the guard and get a push pull and
Speaker 1: grab cloth and kind of get skinny, relatively skinny through
Speaker 1: there and push gets some pushback was pretty impressive. So
Speaker 1: I do think if he could lose fifteen pounds, I'd
Speaker 1: be much higher on him. But again, I think the
Speaker 1: weight issue is he going to play every play like.
Speaker 1: It makes me a little bit concerned.
Speaker 2: Obviously, it's amazing we're saying that a three hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty two guy can get skinny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that speaks to what he brings, and
Speaker 1: he does. He does burn out, does gas out. But
Speaker 1: I do think but there's something there to him. And
Speaker 1: I think let's talk about our plus one's real quad.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: So you got a guy that I haven't watched yet,
Speaker 1: Jordan Jefferson from LSU. Yeah, and talk about him real quick.
Speaker 2: All right, so I think this guy is going to
Speaker 2: go definitely in the later rounds. Okay, Like I wouldn't
Speaker 2: even put him in my top ten, but I could
Speaker 2: see this as like a let's let's take a fire
Speaker 2: on this guy because he has this trait. He is
Speaker 2: a dog. He is super strong, and he's not the fastest,
Speaker 2: doesn't as the best first step, but this dude has
Speaker 2: a nice swim move and liked Tovandre. He is going
Speaker 2: to clog up that middle on run games and he
Speaker 2: is relentless. He doesn't give an f and that's so
Speaker 2: he's lacks in other areas.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: He can completely disappear. He can completely get taken out
Speaker 2: of a play in the sense of like, oh, we
Speaker 2: know this is happening, here's a screen pass. He's completely fooled,
Speaker 2: like there's no he runs out of gas kids, She's like,
Speaker 2: there are things there. But he is an animal. So
Speaker 2: I like that mentality that he brings. And there are moments,
Speaker 2: especially when LSU was playing sort of a little bit
Speaker 2: of weaker competition, he's just tossing guys around.
Speaker 1: You can tell he's one of the stronger guys on
Speaker 1: the fields.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that those things are going to
Speaker 2: translate nicely for a team in the later rounds, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that mentality strength.
Speaker 1: You're looking for qualities too. I think that's the thing. Is,
Speaker 1: like we'll talk about this, maybe maybe we have time
Speaker 1: for another show like this at some point, just like
Speaker 1: what you look for in a later round prospect. And
Speaker 1: because like you know, we've talked about this metric before
Speaker 1: on our show. It's just like you know, there's this
Speaker 1: binary yes or no, and as you move down the list,
Speaker 1: there's a lot more nos, right knows or maybe's or
Speaker 1: whatever there is, right whatever color we're using to kind
Speaker 1: of denote the gray area there. And when you can
Speaker 1: find a guy that has a trait the strength, the speed,
Speaker 1: the size, whatever it is, Like you know, I sent
Speaker 1: you a video this weekend of the guy from the
Speaker 1: Canadian Football League, the oppensive tackle. Right, he's six seven,
Speaker 1: he's three point fifty three. Like that guy is not
Speaker 1: going to be a first round pick. He's probably not
Speaker 1: going to be he's probably not going to be a
Speaker 1: fourth round pick. He's going to be a fifth six
Speaker 1: to seventh round pick, but he's got traits. So if
Speaker 1: I'm kind of mortgaging my future on a guy, I
Speaker 1: want a guy that could eventually, at some point figure
Speaker 1: it out and get it done. So I also have
Speaker 1: a guy from LSU, and I think it's really interesting
Speaker 1: that there's so many guys on this list from LSU
Speaker 1: because the other guy I almost went with his Makai
Speaker 1: Wingo from LSU. He's small, undersize, six foot like two
Speaker 1: and eighty pounds, but got he like at the best
Speaker 1: testing day at the Combine, in my opinion, like just
Speaker 1: shoot out when we were there, moved super well. I
Speaker 1: think there's an inconsistency to his size. But my guy
Speaker 1: is Mason Smith, and he's pretty high on a lot
Speaker 1: of people's boards. He's a top hundred player for a
Speaker 1: lot of people. He's the top seventy player for even
Speaker 1: more people, which is surprising to me because when I
Speaker 1: first watched him, I didn't get it, and then I
Speaker 1: had a conversation with a scout and he was like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: check out the later half of this year. I try
Speaker 1: to find games from the second half of the year,
Speaker 1: so I remember I watched him against Florida and I
Speaker 1: and immediately understood what was happening. He's six six, he's
Speaker 1: three fifteen, three twenty, he's like built in a lab.
Speaker 1: He's this big old hoss, but he's not a fat guy.
Speaker 1: He's kind of a bodybuilder type build. And early in
Speaker 1: the season he just looked his awareness was bad, his
Speaker 1: positioning was bad. He's kind of getting pushed off the ball.
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, like the light turns on.
Speaker 1: And for some of that same stuff we talked about,
Speaker 1: like being able to kind of manipulate pads, get to
Speaker 1: a long arm, grab cloth, push, pull, disrupt offensive tackles,
Speaker 1: push the pocket. It's all there. And then I saw
Speaker 1: a guy in the run game who started to figure
Speaker 1: it out right, getting extension using those long thirty five
Speaker 1: and a half inch arms, throwing guys to the ground,
Speaker 1: getting in on tackles. That motor was coming along, the
Speaker 1: condition was coming along. And the reason that he kind
Speaker 1: of had this maturation, kind of like a butterfly, is
Speaker 1: he was injured last year and so this is his
Speaker 1: first time playing in a couple of years, and he
Speaker 1: started to kind of finally look the part the second
Speaker 1: half of the year. So I think people are going
Speaker 1: to look at the second half of that year and
Speaker 1: be like, this guy could be We talked about traits,
Speaker 1: has the traits to be an impact player, be a
Speaker 1: much better pro than he ever was a college player.
Speaker 1: So I thought it would just again, he's high on
Speaker 1: a lot of people's list. We kind of went different
Speaker 1: ways here, but a guy that I think, don't be
Speaker 1: surprised if you hear him in the second round and
Speaker 1: a guy that makes waves for whatever teams that teams
Speaker 1: up looked him.
Speaker 2: He's I watched all the LSU guys. He's really physically gifted. Right,
Speaker 2: it looks like there needs to be development. Like you said,
Speaker 2: I watched some of those earlier games and this wasn't
Speaker 2: quite there. But yeah, you get a guy with those
Speaker 2: trades in yeah, and he can learn. You got something
Speaker 2: good there. Maybe uh, maybe a rotational player out of
Speaker 2: the out of the gate that has pretty darn good.
Speaker 1: Upside for you. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: All right, let's move the linebackers. I want to skip
Speaker 2: edges just because I want our fans to hang one
Speaker 2: because it's one of the premier positions. So let's skip
Speaker 2: them real quick and go right. The linebackers A big
Speaker 2: need for Washington here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you want to go first, No, you go first,
Speaker 1: all right? So five to one Jeremiah Trotter Junior from Clemson,
Speaker 1: Maurice Lufau, I'm gonna say Lufou from Notre Dame, Cedric
Speaker 1: Gray from UNC, Edgrian Cooper from Texas A and M
Speaker 1: and Peyton Wilson from NC State.
Speaker 2: Okay, I have time, Tommy Etchemberg Ikenberg. The reason I
Speaker 2: say Etchemberg is because I had an old boss at
Speaker 2: a previous job spelled like that, and you went by anyway, maris,
Speaker 2: what did you go with?
Speaker 1: Uh, I'll go with you with that.
Speaker 2: Jeremiah Trotter Junior from Clemson is three, Peyton Wilson is two,
Speaker 2: and then Edrin Cooper Texas AMM is one for me.
Speaker 2: So we flipped one end two.
Speaker 1: It's close to me. They're like so on my big board,
Speaker 1: I think one was if I remember correctly, sixty four
Speaker 1: to one was sixty five. So they're like literally holding
Speaker 1: hands here. So yeah, good go on either way.
Speaker 2: Well, you went ooh for Jeremiah Trotter, so let me
Speaker 2: start there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all right.
Speaker 2: So the reason I have Trotter Junior there is he's
Speaker 2: not very big and he's not super fast.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, he may have traveled with trouble wrapping up. I
Speaker 2: would think with technic because he has shorter arms measured
Speaker 2: short there. But from what I can tell watching films,
Speaker 2: this is the leader on that defense. He knows what's
Speaker 2: going on. He's quick to dissect plays, doesn't get fooled
Speaker 2: on play action often, very patient with that. But once
Speaker 2: he sees run and knows it's run, really attacks downhill
Speaker 2: and I just feel like the IQ is there with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the physicals may not quite be there, but the
Speaker 2: IQ is and I would bet on that. As the
Speaker 2: third linebacker off the board, I'm betting on the IQ.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's where I would differ with you,
Speaker 1: because I think I see the IQ there. I think
Speaker 1: he's a really good football player. He's got those kind
Speaker 1: of instincts. His dad played football, same thing, kind of
Speaker 1: thing we were talking about with Chris Shankins, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The problem for me is that I think the physical
Speaker 1: tools are a little bit in question. And that's not
Speaker 1: just him, that's you know. I really like Tommy Eikenberg too.
Speaker 1: He's on your list, and I have a lot of
Speaker 1: questions about his ability to like physically do it at
Speaker 1: the next level. I think a lot of people forget
Speaker 1: how athletically gifted you have to be to play football
Speaker 1: in the NFL, specifically at linebacker, And so when I
Speaker 1: went through, I was literally like, physically do I think
Speaker 1: they can get it done? And that's why Jeremiah tried
Speaker 1: to juniors down the list. He's a little undersized, not
Speaker 1: the biggest guy in the world, not super long, not
Speaker 1: super fast. Again, gets by on being on knowing it
Speaker 1: and that works really well up to a point. And
Speaker 1: I've played a lot of dudes in my career that
Speaker 1: know it really well, like Will Compton's a great example,
Speaker 1: you know, on bustling with the boys, like knew it
Speaker 1: really well never and he had some spits there, right,
Speaker 1: But he had to get lucky. Guys had to get hurt,
Speaker 1: the opportunity had to come for him and so and
Speaker 1: he never really was able to hold onto that starting
Speaker 1: position because they're always looking to physically upgrade the position.
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of what I look at
Speaker 1: with with Jeremiah Charter junior, and again, a guy that
Speaker 1: I like a lot. He's a good football player, just
Speaker 1: the physical ceiling is something that I really question with him.
Speaker 2: So, uh, you want me to talk about Eichenberg real quick?
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about as you mentioned him, I meant.
Speaker 2: And the traits you're talking about I have here. He
Speaker 2: doesn't look super fast. He like, if there's a bounce
Speaker 2: out or a stretch run to the perimeter, he's pretty
Speaker 2: slow to get over there. Not super fast there. But
Speaker 2: he's instinctive. He's great in the run game when he
Speaker 2: identifies it and he attacks downhill. I think he's just
Speaker 2: an all around solid player. Oh and he hits really.
Speaker 1: Hard, which I also like that too.
Speaker 2: So there's like, I get what you're saying. I guess
Speaker 2: because I didn't play football right like or at the
Speaker 2: level that you did. Rather and like I'm looking at
Speaker 2: this and also when you watch these plays, like I said,
Speaker 2: I don't know what I don't know, and it's really
Speaker 2: hard for me to tell. I don't know what the
Speaker 2: defense is called. When I'm watching these, I just I'm
Speaker 2: seeing it and I'm guessing. But it looks like he's
Speaker 2: always in the right spot. It looks like he's getting
Speaker 2: other guys in the right spot. So that's the IQ
Speaker 2: that again I'm betting on and maybe these other guys
Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about that of the physical
Speaker 2: traits also of that IQ, and I'm just not seeing it.
Speaker 2: And because I'm seeing limitations in these guys, then the
Speaker 2: IQ sticks out like I'm not sure, but for me,
Speaker 2: that's why I'm rating these guys a little bit higher.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think with Tommy Eickerberg, if you watch
Speaker 1: him versus Notre Dame last year in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: he looks like that dude. There's a lot of conversation
Speaker 1: at the start of last season about him being maybe
Speaker 1: the third the second linebacker taken right, People were very
Speaker 1: very high on him. But I do think there was
Speaker 1: a little bit of an aggression. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's defensive scheme, if there's an injury, what's going on.
Speaker 1: But I do get concerned when you see someone who's
Speaker 1: kind of limited athletically, what are they seeling? Are they
Speaker 1: a second string linebacker for you for the course of
Speaker 1: their career? And again, there's value there that's a good
Speaker 1: football player, like Drod Mayo shows you exactly what that
Speaker 1: can be for you. Like special teams ace guy that
Speaker 1: comes in certain situations can get your bio when the
Speaker 1: starter's hurt for a little bit, But do you ever
Speaker 1: want that guy to be your starting middle linebacker? And ultimately,
Speaker 1: like I kind of said, probably not, even though I
Speaker 1: like him a lot as a player, So I think
Speaker 1: for me, like that's why I went like Maurice Luaffu
Speaker 1: above those guys.
Speaker 2: Dude, he's nasty.
Speaker 1: He's nasty, he's physical, he's tough. I'd worry a little
Speaker 1: bit about his instincts, but there's no question for me,
Speaker 1: Like when I see him in space, like dropping in
Speaker 1: his own there's not a lot of stiffness. It's very
Speaker 1: natural when I see the guard pool. One of the
Speaker 1: things that I really try to evaluate with linebackers because
Speaker 1: with jam in college, you saw him kind of have
Speaker 1: a hard time getting extension on blocks and being really
Speaker 1: deliberate with his hands right, and that was something that
Speaker 1: took a little bit of time for him to develop. Here,
Speaker 1: I think he's got it now. Like when you watch
Speaker 1: this stuff from last year, it looks like snappy and
Speaker 1: physical and decisive, and Luaifu has no issue with that.
Speaker 1: He's got long arms, he snaps carts back, he's a
Speaker 1: good blitzer, he's a good tackler. He's pretty instinctive to
Speaker 1: the ball. There's times where there's misdirection in the backfield
Speaker 1: You're like, he is not looking at the right thing
Speaker 1: because he's running completely the wrong direction. But I think
Speaker 1: this kind of speaks to what I just was talking about.
Speaker 1: The athlete. Yeah, physicality, because what he's six three, he's
Speaker 1: two thirty five, Yeah, and he's got he's got thirty
Speaker 1: four inch long arms, like thirty three thirty four inch arms,
Speaker 1: and he plays that way, And I just think like
Speaker 1: that's something you want to like. That guy can project
Speaker 1: to being a starting caliber player in the NFL. The
Speaker 1: arm length in the middle of the field, especially with
Speaker 1: all the play as and stuff behind him, He's gonna
Speaker 1: be able to tip balls and get stuff that a
Speaker 1: lot of guys that a lot of other guys can't.
Speaker 1: So that's why I kind of win that director.
Speaker 2: We're on the same page there, I have. I said
Speaker 2: the same exact thing. He's a he bullies blockers in
Speaker 2: a run game, YEA, right, He's just he's nasty, aggressive,
Speaker 2: good power. All right. With Wilson and Cooper, let's not
Speaker 2: argue over their position on one and two, but let's
Speaker 2: just talk about these guys and we'll go in your order.
Speaker 2: I'll defer to you. So let's start with Edrin Cooper.
Speaker 2: You have him as your two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a maniac and I love watching him play.
Speaker 1: He's got great arm length, kind of in the same
Speaker 1: way that Marie Luof who has long arms, Like you
Speaker 1: can see him get off blocks like people don't get
Speaker 1: in on his chest. He's a missile to the football, yes,
Speaker 1: and he's downhill. I think the one thing I question
Speaker 1: is like, in that tex A and m offense, they
Speaker 1: blitz him a ton, So is he going to be
Speaker 1: more of Like I actually thought he'd be a really
Speaker 1: good fit here for Washington, And I think I still
Speaker 1: think that because he has this great pass rush upside
Speaker 1: inside he can play off the ball, But I think
Speaker 1: he kind of has more traits as a passersto. I
Speaker 1: think he had the fastest ten for any linebacker at
Speaker 1: the combine, so has some real get off juice in
Speaker 1: space in coverage. They don't ask him to do a lot,
Speaker 1: so I'm always kind of like, what are you going
Speaker 1: to be because like as much as people want to
Speaker 1: ignore that, that is a huge element of the NFL game,
Speaker 1: Like Colston the guy from Michigan is a guy that
Speaker 1: I really like his film, but didn't cover a lot.
Speaker 1: Junior Colson didn't cover a lot, and so I had
Speaker 1: to put him down my board. Don't that's really why
Speaker 1: they're switch for me. It's just because I worry about
Speaker 1: his ability to cover consistently. But dude can run, Dude
Speaker 1: can hit, dude can shake off blocks. He pursues to
Speaker 1: the football, Like there was a play I forget. I
Speaker 1: think they were playing in Alabama where someone got a
Speaker 1: reverse and was gone up the sideline and everybody's kind
Speaker 1: of trailing away from the play and he's running to
Speaker 1: the football and gets the runner. It's a touchdown, but
Speaker 1: like he was on the other side of the field
Speaker 1: chase it the whole way down like a receiver. So
Speaker 1: I really like the prospect, really like the player.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And speaking of chasing guys down, that's Peyton Wilson
Speaker 2: right speed speed speed speed speed. Yeah, that's what I
Speaker 2: got for him. Like he's got other stuff. I have
Speaker 2: nice coverage, got great pursuit sideline the sideline. He's a
Speaker 2: top tier athlete. He can chase down whide receivers, running backs.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. My only issue is shedding blocks.
Speaker 1: Oh dude, you can get caught some times. And he's
Speaker 1: got really short, relatively short arms, and so that's I
Speaker 1: go back and forth on them all the time, Like
Speaker 1: it depends on what kind of scheme you're running. But
Speaker 1: if you can find a way to cover him up,
Speaker 1: I think you want the athletic upside and coverage and yeah,
Speaker 1: because I think that's that's a little bit better. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's the short arms. He doesn't have great block
Speaker 1: destruction techniques. He's trying to jump around stuff. You see
Speaker 1: teams gash them all the time because he's jumping around stuff.
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to mention one thing real quick.
Speaker 1: A guy that a lot of people haven't talked about
Speaker 1: is Cedric Gray from UNC and he's a guy that
Speaker 1: really jumped out to me again because I think he's
Speaker 1: physical to the football, he's got great pursuit, but also
Speaker 1: he's good in coverage, and I think that's what separates
Speaker 1: like these top guys for me is I think they
Speaker 1: have some coverage upside. Like again, Edrin Cooper's a little
Speaker 1: hit or miss, but he's just so good at everything else.
Speaker 1: Do you feel good about it? But Cedric gray bumps
Speaker 1: guys like Tommy Eikenberg Colson, Jeremiah Chrotter Junior because he
Speaker 1: seems to have more ball production and better natural feel
Speaker 1: for playing the football.
Speaker 2: And my plus one was Jalen Ford from Texas. And again,
Speaker 2: this is a later round guy, right, He's going to
Speaker 2: go later round because he gets his eyes get caught
Speaker 2: in the backfield. He gets mixed up a lot. He
Speaker 2: doesn't have great pure speed. You can tell that he's
Speaker 2: just he's not an elite speedster. When it comes to that,
Speaker 2: he can he's slow. When I watch these other guys,
Speaker 2: he looks slower and his quickness change of direction is
Speaker 2: just not there. But for a late round pick downhill
Speaker 2: run guy, that's what this is. This is a run
Speaker 2: stopping linebacker. He charges downhill. He doesn't care if there's
Speaker 2: a lineman in the way, if there's a pulling guard,
Speaker 2: he is going to do everything he can to use
Speaker 2: his body to just ram through it and be disruptive.
Speaker 2: And he has nice little burst in that tight area.
Speaker 2: So let's say there's a stretch play the outside and
Speaker 2: he's working in. There's a little like when he goes
Speaker 2: to where that tackle was a little burst, right, there
Speaker 2: it's a nice solid, hard hit and for a later round,
Speaker 2: for a sixth round we're talking about here, Yeah, why
Speaker 2: not take a shot?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And so for me, it's a jountry hunter from
Speaker 1: Georgia State, and he's a guy that, again you're looking
Speaker 1: for traits, right, Yeah, I think he runs well. I
Speaker 1: think he's got a pretty good feeling coverage. I love
Speaker 1: his instincts and I think I think when you look
Speaker 1: at his physical tools, I think he tested pretty well
Speaker 1: at the combine. Not the best, not the worst, kind
Speaker 1: of upper middle, but I like those traits in conjunction
Speaker 1: with the instincts that I see on film. Right, He's
Speaker 1: and again I think a guy that could grow and develop.
Speaker 1: He might be a six or seventh round pick. But
Speaker 1: there was something about when you watch this film, just
Speaker 1: a smoothness, a consistency that I enjoyed watching and I
Speaker 1: think is transferable to the next level.
Speaker 2: All right, let's jump to safety.
Speaker 1: Safety guys. This was a nightmare. Yah. It was just tough. Man.
Speaker 1: It's just tough to evaluate him like it was.
Speaker 2: This is really hard because they're off the screen. If
Speaker 2: you don't have an ALL twenty two, you don't see what.
Speaker 1: They're doing, they're off the screen, and there's just not
Speaker 1: a lot of plays right, and like what they're asked
Speaker 1: to do is the way different than what they're going
Speaker 1: to be asked to do at the NFL level. So
Speaker 1: this was challenging for me, but I feel like I've
Speaker 1: got I believe in my top five. So why don't
Speaker 1: you go first?
Speaker 2: All right? Tyreek Smith from Georgia is five.
Speaker 1: Tikey yes, Tiky, sorry, all right, Cioni Vaki from Utah.
Speaker 2: I can't quit them, Cameron Kitchens more Miami, Javon Bullard
Speaker 2: from Georgia, and Tyler Nuban from Minnesota.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I've got Cole Bishop from Utah as my
Speaker 1: fifth guy, Jaden Hicks from Washington State, Javon Bullard from Georgia,
Speaker 1: Tyler Nuban from Minnesota, excellent football player. My number one
Speaker 1: safety is Cooper Dejene from Iowa.
Speaker 2: Interesting, let's hold on the Cooper JJ because he's going
Speaker 2: to pop up later. But where do you want to
Speaker 2: start here?
Speaker 1: I guess for me, let's start with the Utah guys.
Speaker 1: And I think, so, why don't you start with Vake?
Speaker 1: Because when I see Vake, I see a guy who's
Speaker 1: got excellent short air quickness. He's pretty good in coverage.
Speaker 1: He's good near good and near and around the line
Speaker 1: of scrimmage. I didn't see a guy who was great
Speaker 1: tackling in the open field the way that I was
Speaker 1: hoping to see. I think the other stuff I really enjoyed.
Speaker 1: I think when he's in coverage he can match concepts
Speaker 1: really well. But if you're going to be that kind
Speaker 1: of box safety, that big nickel, you gotta tackle in
Speaker 1: the run game really really well. And I just didn't
Speaker 1: didn't see that from him. The way.
Speaker 2: He's athletic as hell. Yeah, and he's from what I
Speaker 2: can tell, he's pretty fast at dissecting what's happening.
Speaker 1: Oh, he's got excellent let me just make that clear.
Speaker 1: I think he's got excellent instincts and vision. It's just
Speaker 1: about the execution sometimes when he gets there right.
Speaker 2: It's the same thing I think that makes him a
Speaker 2: good running back. He's aggressive when he's even when he's
Speaker 2: running fast. He does kind of with one tackles, which
Speaker 2: I'm not super excited about you're just talking about. But
Speaker 2: I just I love the athlete. I love that he's
Speaker 2: again the IQ that's there and quite Honestly, the reason
Speaker 2: I'm putting them here is because he will be a
Speaker 2: later guy, I think. And I'm taking the athlete here
Speaker 2: as a special teams guy, as a guy that has
Speaker 2: enough plays on defense that I think he could be.
Speaker 2: You made the accomp to Derek Force here, right in
Speaker 2: the sense of a guy that could be on special
Speaker 2: teams and when you need him to step in, he
Speaker 2: can step in and potentially be something there for you.
Speaker 2: I think he can do that. And then the dude
Speaker 2: can play running back. So like, I just think I
Speaker 2: think that like he offers a versatility and a high
Speaker 2: football IQ. In that versatility, that's worth's taking a shot.
Speaker 1: No, I agree. I agree, And just to me is like,
Speaker 1: where's the value there? And for me, it's that's probably
Speaker 1: a fifth, sixth round guy. But I do think all
Speaker 1: of the things I said about him, I enjoy. The
Speaker 1: tackling is a little bit of an issue for me.
Speaker 1: Just the general physicality sometimes is a little bit of
Speaker 1: an issue. That's why I think he's probably a better
Speaker 1: offensive player. Cole Bishop's my guy from you, He's my
Speaker 1: fifth guy. And I just could not shake Eric weddle vibes.
Speaker 1: And I played against Eric Weddle in college, Like just
Speaker 1: the way his kind of He's a Swiss Army knife, right,
Speaker 1: he's playing linebacker, he's playing post safety, he's the box safety,
Speaker 1: he's the star. He's on the line of scrimmage blitzing,
Speaker 1: and he was He's very instinctive. He's a better athlete
Speaker 1: than people think. I worry a little bit about his
Speaker 1: arm length, especially guarding NFL tight ends. But I just
Speaker 1: saw a dude who was good at football, at instinctive,
Speaker 1: good at blitzing. He's physical, he's got a great feel,
Speaker 1: and he ran a four to four at the combine.
Speaker 1: So I was any sixty three and he's two hundred
Speaker 1: and ten pounds. So I was like, you know, he's
Speaker 1: not that. He's not a murderous hitter, he's not a
Speaker 1: he's not like, you know, the best blitzer scene. But
Speaker 1: he's just good at every single thing. And and I
Speaker 1: I just I value that. I think that's an NFL
Speaker 1: starting player.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about two guys that we both have high here.
Speaker 2: We'll do Javon Bullard from Georgia and then moved to
Speaker 2: Tyler Newman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Javon Bullard and Tyler Newman. They are very similar players.
Speaker 1: I think the thing about Tyler Newman is when you
Speaker 1: just watch his he's my number he's my number two guy,
Speaker 1: probably my number one true safety on most people's boards.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: But his ball production is absolutely insane. Like I saw
Speaker 1: one of the best cover two disguises of anybody in
Speaker 1: this class. So I forget who they were playing, but
Speaker 1: it's a three by one. He kind of rolls like
Speaker 1: rolls to the single receiver side because the middlefield's open.
Speaker 1: The quarterback looks right down the middle of the field,
Speaker 1: and I just and instead of like running like a
Speaker 1: backup bat of a hell to a spot, he just stops,
Speaker 1: watched the quarterback bates him in a f row and intercepts
Speaker 1: the football. And that is advanced stuff. That's like big
Speaker 1: boy NFL stuff, top tier ball skill, top tier ball skills.
Speaker 1: I think he's a decent blitzer. I think he accelerates
Speaker 1: well to the football. Don't love his physicality on blocks
Speaker 1: and things like that. But again, he's a safety, so
Speaker 1: how much is he going to do that? I don't know.
Speaker 1: But again, the ball skills were insane. The closing speed
Speaker 1: of the football, even though he didn't run very well,
Speaker 1: he's got that kind of football speed where it's like
Speaker 1: he sees the ball, he diagnoses it quickly. He's able
Speaker 1: to get there. But a little bit physicality concerns. But
Speaker 1: I think the other stuff's top shelf.
Speaker 2: The quick backpedal, nice backpedal, and the flip of the
Speaker 2: hips to turn and run very very nice, very smooth,
Speaker 2: great first step, explosive explosiveness, and yeah, man, that's why
Speaker 2: I wrote top tier ball skills, which you want a
Speaker 2: little writer in the run defense. But when you're that
Speaker 2: good back there.
Speaker 1: He's like a true like at least in what I watch,
Speaker 1: he's like a true cover two posts over three safety type. Guy.
Speaker 1: Didn't do a lot of box stuff, so that's not
Speaker 1: really why you're while you're picking him, but you know,
Speaker 1: safety's got to tackle, but still a good football player.
Speaker 2: All right. So for Bullard from Georgia, I'm gonna say something, man,
Speaker 2: I hope Washington fans won't get mad at me for this.
Speaker 2: He looks like a fun size Sean.
Speaker 1: Tailor, like smaller. He he's a slight build.
Speaker 2: He's a slow much smaller than Sean Taylor. But oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, does he want to hit and hit hard?
Speaker 2: And he is aggressive.
Speaker 1: Towards downhill, Oh my gosh. And he's got decent cover skills.
Speaker 1: He's got decent stage skills.
Speaker 2: Tracks the ball very well, sudden the jump roots, the
Speaker 2: dude can chase down wide. Receiver's pretty fast.
Speaker 1: Do you have uh, do you have his heide and
Speaker 1: weight on there? He looks small, I have.
Speaker 2: He's five to ten.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I looked a little undersized to me on.
Speaker 2: Fun size man. Sean Taylor's Shawn Taylor's the king size.
Speaker 1: This is fun sized, And so it's funny you say
Speaker 1: fun size Sean Taylor. Like when I was watching Jayden Hicks.
Speaker 1: Now it's not all the time. He's the safety from
Speaker 1: Rushington State, And I just had to bring this up
Speaker 1: real quick. When you watch him against you dub, he
Speaker 1: looks like the most devastating defensive player in the draft.
Speaker 1: Like he is. He's covering receivers, he's tackling running backs,
Speaker 1: he's chinning guards like he's excellent. And then there's like
Speaker 1: you watch Arizona game, which the other game he's got online,
Speaker 1: and it's a little bit up and down. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: in that one game, I was like, I had these
Speaker 1: strongest Sean Taylor vibes I've ever seen ever watching a player.
Speaker 1: It's just about the consistency with him. More of a
Speaker 1: box guy. Yeah, but like that six three two twenty
Speaker 1: type build, that's just.
Speaker 2: Like with that mentality.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's just freaky and he needs to get with
Speaker 1: a good coach. But you know, I came out of
Speaker 1: this like not. I think there are some really quality
Speaker 1: guys at the top of this thing. And you got
Speaker 1: Cameron Kitchens from Miami.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. Let me let me pull up my So.
Speaker 1: Cameron Kitchens is interesting to me because I could not
Speaker 1: get a good feel for him. I was a little
Speaker 1: bit worried about his general athleticism when I watched him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have he is a solid all around athlete,
Speaker 2: a good eye for where quarterbacks are gonna go with
Speaker 2: the ball. Looks like he's he's quick to get over there.
Speaker 2: He he knows from what I can tell right and
Speaker 2: watching the film, he should be on one side of
Speaker 2: the field. But that ball's in here and he's already
Speaker 2: making a play on it. So something told him to
Speaker 2: break for that ball is what I'm seeing, right. I
Speaker 2: think he has really good ball skills at the catch point.
Speaker 2: He's another ballhawk. I think he's a little lighter, smaller frame, right,
Speaker 2: and my fear with him is a little bit like
Speaker 2: a corner we're going to talk about Elier. It looks
Speaker 2: like he's not He'll get in there and tackle, but
Speaker 2: he's not running downhill. You can tell he's like, oh okay,
Speaker 2: I'll get in here now. Like he's not like the
Speaker 2: bullet we just talked about that Sean Taylor mentality, just
Speaker 2: a missile launch right into this line. I'm gonna blow
Speaker 2: it up. It doesn't have that, doesn't have that.
Speaker 1: No, it's one hundred percent true. So I think that's it.
Speaker 1: And then I got my last guy is Cooper Degene.
Speaker 2: Who will talk about in the second with the cornerbacks
Speaker 2: because I have him in there, so we'll talk about that. Then, yeah,
Speaker 2: who's your plus one safety?
Speaker 1: So I had two guys one Klen Bullock, who I
Speaker 1: just I loved him as a mover on film. Not
Speaker 1: a physical dude at all, but in terms of ball skills,
Speaker 1: maybe the best ball skills in the whole draft class.
Speaker 1: Like he just the way he tracks the football, the
Speaker 1: way he can close ground. He is not he's he
Speaker 1: can hit you, but in run fits and stuff, dude,
Speaker 1: you can tell he's taking creative angles. He's totally disinterested.
Speaker 1: That's why he's my plus one. But a guy that
Speaker 1: in this type of scheme, like given free reign, just
Speaker 1: to go make plays, get his hands on the football
Speaker 1: and make you wrong. And then Dominie Campton was another
Speaker 1: guy way down the list. I decided to bring him up.
Speaker 1: He's six ' four two point fifteen tested like an
Speaker 1: absolute mutant. He's got thirty three and a half in charms.
Speaker 1: Thirty three and three quarters in charms. That's an offensive
Speaker 1: lineman length there in terms of arms, so he looks
Speaker 1: like a spider on film. He reminds me so much
Speaker 1: of kind of this this body type that Dan Quinn loves,
Speaker 1: which is like I can play linebacker, I can play safety,
Speaker 1: and I can run. And he's a guy because of
Speaker 1: that ability to run that could develop on teams for
Speaker 1: or two and then become like your Javon curse for Dallas. Right,
Speaker 1: this six four two ten to fifteen type guy that
Speaker 1: can match up with tight ends, play the post if
Speaker 1: you need to, but also knows how to fit the run.
Speaker 1: And I just thought that guy will go higher than
Speaker 1: people think because of the athletic upside.
Speaker 2: Maryland knows how to turn out some defensive backs player
Speaker 2: good with that, and I have a bo Brady, Sorry Brady.
Speaker 1: Just I feel like, just like a solid set he is.
Speaker 2: He's a solid player. Yeah, And for somebody looking for
Speaker 2: a Buffalo Nickel, I feel like that's where he's gonna fit.
Speaker 2: Because he's not the best in coverage. He can get lost,
Speaker 2: he can get turned around. I saw that in the
Speaker 2: Penn State game because I'm a Penn State fan and
Speaker 2: watching that like every now and then, it's like, bro,
Speaker 2: where are you going? But he is a willing tackler.
Speaker 2: He's got good size, six to one to two ten
Speaker 2: willly more than a willing tackler. He wants to mix
Speaker 2: it up. He's not afraid of the bigger running backs.
Speaker 2: He will charge downhill and go after them. And he's confident.
Speaker 2: He's confident when he runs downhill. So it's a trait
Speaker 2: later in a round. Maryland knows how to turn these
Speaker 2: guys out that end up being good NFL players. Here,
Speaker 2: I take a chance on them, especially again when you're
Speaker 2: looking at traits and I'm starting to buy into when
Speaker 2: I'm making these evaluations to trade of does he want
Speaker 2: to play football and get nasty. Yeah, I like it
Speaker 2: for sure. Why not? So when we're talking the Buffalo
Speaker 2: Nickel type of thing, this guy can do it for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I like that pick a lot. I think
Speaker 1: he's very consistent football player, you know, if somewhat physically limited.
Speaker 1: But yeah, all.
Speaker 2: Right, because you want to talk about Cooper de Jean,
Speaker 2: let's go to cornerbacks.
Speaker 1: Quarterbacks.
Speaker 2: You want to go first this time?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I won first last time? Did I know You're right? Okay,
Speaker 1: let's go five TJ Tampa, Iowa State, four, kool Aid mckinnistry, Alabama.
Speaker 1: Three Tearrian Arnold Alabama, Nate Wiggins Clemson That hurt my
Speaker 1: heart a little bit. And then Quinon Mitchell Toledo.
Speaker 2: Okay, I have at five Nate Wiggins from Clemson. Four
Speaker 2: we have the same one kool Aid three. This is
Speaker 2: where I put Cooper de Jean. Yeah, all right, two
Speaker 2: Quinon Mitchell from Toledo, and one Marian Arnold from Alabama.
Speaker 2: Now for me, before we get arguing with each other here,
Speaker 2: I think all of these guys are actually razor thin close,
Speaker 2: and I'm only switching them around based off of a
Speaker 2: trait that I Jag Jason personally like more dislike, but
Speaker 2: they're very, very close. I think this is a very
Speaker 2: good cornerback class. So let's start with the guys from Alabama, right.
Speaker 1: So kool aid. So I was watching in the LSU
Speaker 1: game and I just thought, here's a guy that plays
Speaker 1: with great technique, understands leverages, understands how to be competitive
Speaker 1: at the catch point, and that kind of sealed the
Speaker 1: deal from me. I wasn't going to put him in
Speaker 1: the top five, but then I watched that game and
Speaker 1: I was like, this dude deserves it. I think he's
Speaker 1: pretty physical. I think he's pretty instinctive, you know, not
Speaker 1: the greatest athlete of all time, but I think he
Speaker 1: plays with tremendous technical prowess. You know, he's like his
Speaker 1: feet are in the right spot, his hips are in
Speaker 1: the right spot, his hand ushes is great. A lot
Speaker 1: of these guys are going to talk about are super handsy,
Speaker 1: like unnecessarily handsy, and it's gonna get them called in
Speaker 1: the NFL. I I feel like he's the most technically
Speaker 1: ready from an NFL standpoint.
Speaker 2: I agree completely very solid technically. I called him a
Speaker 2: slightly taller Kendall Fuller just trust him right, and I
Speaker 2: think he's going to be a very good corner right away.
Speaker 2: The interesting thing about him and Terry and Arnold when
Speaker 2: I was looking at it, is that this year, this
Speaker 2: past season, less targets went kool Aid's way. More went
Speaker 2: Terry and Arnold's way. And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: that has to do because kool Aid had an incredible
Speaker 2: year two years ago at Alabama, and I think offenses
Speaker 2: were like, we're not throwing that way this year. We're
Speaker 2: just not thrown that way. So he had less tape
Speaker 2: than Terry and Arnold did this year, And a part
Speaker 2: of me is like, is that speak to how good
Speaker 2: kool Aid is that there's not as much there and
Speaker 2: like there's a significantly more targets going to Terry and Arnold.
Speaker 2: Now I still have Terry Arnold is number one here
Speaker 2: in this class, but should I consider that kool Aid,
Speaker 2: who's on the same team with them. They're like, Nope,
Speaker 2: we're not thrown that, We're thrown to this guy. You
Speaker 2: think he's the best corner on the field, but offenses
Speaker 2: didn't think that. They thought it was cool eight Yeah,
Speaker 2: do you think of that?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it brings me to Terry and Arnold,
Speaker 1: like I just put him ahead of kool aid because
Speaker 1: I think he's a little bit better, like with the
Speaker 1: clicking clothes, the short air of quickness, he's a little
Speaker 1: bit better at anticipating stuff, a little bit stronger, a
Speaker 1: little bit more aggressive to tackle. But in terms of
Speaker 1: coverage instincts, he makes me very nervous. And again, like
Speaker 1: he's a guy that I watch and I say to myself, like, like,
Speaker 1: there's this thing like where you watch a cut up right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's certain things I want to see. I want
Speaker 1: to see a guy in phase, you know he's breaking
Speaker 1: when the receiver's breaking. And there was a couple, not
Speaker 1: a lot, but enough for I was like I had
Speaker 1: to watch more where they're running like a box fade
Speaker 1: and he gets in trail, he doesn't get hands on,
Speaker 1: he misses with the hands, didn't have the recovery speed
Speaker 1: to get there, and the ball is overthrown and that's
Speaker 1: a that's considered a pass defendant for him. So I
Speaker 1: think the thing that got me a little bit concerned
Speaker 1: was kind of the top end speed, the top shelf speed,
Speaker 1: and the elite coverage ability. I think when you look
Speaker 1: at like a football player, like he's your dude, man,
Speaker 1: he's like, you know, he's fitting runs, he's he's getting
Speaker 1: he's mixing up with receivers, he's anticipating screens. Like there's
Speaker 1: a lot to like. I just the ceiling because, like
Speaker 1: kool Aid gets away with it because he's excellent from
Speaker 1: a coverage like, he's excellent from a technical standpoint, And
Speaker 1: Arnold has this superpower of being hyper quick in short
Speaker 1: area space. But when it's like long speed and where
Speaker 1: running running, I get a little bit concerned about that. Again,
Speaker 1: he's my third guy. I like him, but I have
Speaker 1: I had a hard time placing him.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna disagree just slightly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go for it, all right.
Speaker 2: And the slight disagreement is is that I'm seeing that
Speaker 2: he's chasing in some instances. I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: his speed. It may just be because he's not super polished.
Speaker 2: It looks like and he gets turned around.
Speaker 1: Which is not a great thing.
Speaker 2: No it's not. But I see a recovery speed there.
Speaker 2: So the reason I have him at one is because
Speaker 2: he's an excellent athlete. He's got great size, and he
Speaker 2: does have that recovery speed. I do see it there.
Speaker 2: I think he needs to polish up, but when you do,
Speaker 2: you're going to have a better player than cool maybe,
Speaker 2: And that's why he's he's there. I think it's the
Speaker 2: traits are there and he's got a lot. You can
Speaker 2: see that he's got these things that all they need
Speaker 2: is just a little bit of sanding, and you've got
Speaker 2: an excellent ballplayer here. And that's why I have him
Speaker 2: at one. This is a full projection for me, right.
Speaker 2: It's not a oh I've seen it. I feel great
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: It's like kind of like why you like Drake may
Speaker 1: too exactly? Why? Yes, we thought we could avoid the
Speaker 1: quarterback talk, but there was yeah yeah, so I agree
Speaker 1: with that, and I'm not sure that it's I'm just
Speaker 1: not sure about his role. I thought his role was
Speaker 1: one thing when I started watching, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: is he just a true nickel? Do you want to
Speaker 1: take that guy in the top fifteen. I think there's
Speaker 1: value there. Again, he's a good football player, So I'm
Speaker 1: not like trying to you know, like yes, absolutely, I
Speaker 1: just I just worry about how like I think maybe
Speaker 1: this is where expectations come out. I was like, he's good,
Speaker 1: but I was expecting him to be the best player
Speaker 1: in the defensive player in the draft because of some
Speaker 1: of the stuff I had read before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and speaking of a recovery speed, let's talk about
Speaker 2: Quenya on Mitchell.
Speaker 1: Quenya on Mitchell Man, Like, this is a little bit
Speaker 1: of a projection too, Man, But when you talk about
Speaker 1: athletic traits, physical traits, like, there's nobody, nobody better in
Speaker 1: my opinion, in this class. Like he's the freakiest of
Speaker 1: the freaky. You know, He's runs a four to three nine,
Speaker 1: he's two hundred pounds, he's six foot, he's got great
Speaker 1: ball production in college. He's got excellent, excellent, excellent recovery speed,
Speaker 1: excellent recovery speed. And I think when I watched him
Speaker 1: at the Senior Bowl, his ability to stay with some
Speaker 1: of the best receivers in the country, be physical, be quick,
Speaker 1: undercut stuff. I just think it's a projection because he
Speaker 1: played at Toledo obviously, and you're kind of like he's
Speaker 1: in this crazy soft zone coverage all the time. But
Speaker 1: I just was like, this guy's got got what it
Speaker 1: takes from a competitive standpoint and from a physical standpoint,
Speaker 1: all right, So he's my number one guy.
Speaker 2: Here's you're gonna go on a little journey with me, okay, Right,
Speaker 2: I started off this process and here's what I wrote
Speaker 2: about him. I said, great recovery speed, but he needs
Speaker 2: to use it because he gets caught with his eyes
Speaker 2: in the backfield and it looks like he has flat
Speaker 2: feet at the beginning of place. That's why I.
Speaker 1: Wrote, right, it's in his own coverage.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that, all right, But we went to
Speaker 2: the Senior Bowl, right. We went to the Senior Bowl
Speaker 2: and I watched it, and here's what I typed here.
Speaker 2: Boy was I wrong? Kind of right? Kind of because
Speaker 2: he he still can get caught.
Speaker 1: There was that route that Roman Wilson had on him
Speaker 1: where Roman Wilson, who's got these great stems, yeah, kind
Speaker 1: of got him turned around a little bit and he
Speaker 1: couldn't he couldn't use his speed basically, but.
Speaker 2: He does have that recovery speed, and man does he
Speaker 2: catch right back up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So those little at Toledo, I didn't know because it
Speaker 2: was the it was a competition he was playing with,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, well, this recovery speed looks
Speaker 2: elite on this state because of the competition. But then
Speaker 2: at the Senior Bowl. No, it's elite speed, it's going
Speaker 2: to play in the NFL. It's just so good. And
Speaker 2: then you're right, it's the z own coverage thing. Seeing
Speaker 2: him in those one on one drills. He wasn't doing
Speaker 2: anything and it looked very nice, very smooth, and very clean.
Speaker 2: So is what he was asked to do. A lot
Speaker 2: of zone there at Toledo. So, boy, was I wrong.
Speaker 2: I moved this guy all the way up from being
Speaker 2: probably outside my five top five to number two, and
Speaker 2: he's right there for possibly number one. And a part
Speaker 2: of me wanted to die on the hill if he's
Speaker 2: not going to be good, just because like I wanted
Speaker 2: to do. Yeah, I want to trust myself in some way,
Speaker 2: and there's a little bit of pride right with this thing.
Speaker 2: And it's just like, man, I was just wrong. He's
Speaker 2: just a good player.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just a good player, all right, A good player. Uh,
Speaker 1: we're going to do Nate Wiggins.
Speaker 2: Let's do Nate Wiggins dinner plus ones than Cooper did.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so Nate Wiggins. So Nate Wiggins. I
Speaker 1: don't like him that much, but he's my number two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because he's the best coverage player in the Drafty, he's
Speaker 1: the best coverage player in the draft. Like, and he's
Speaker 1: six ' two, he's one hundred and eighty five pounds.
Speaker 1: He runs like the wind, and you know watching him
Speaker 1: against the receivers from Florida State, Now, I give the
Speaker 1: Florida State guys some leeway because I think the quarterback
Speaker 1: from Florida State really struggle in that appearance. But he's
Speaker 1: never stressed, even with fast guys, He's never stressed. He's
Speaker 1: got incredibly smooth feet. Like if you like he's the
Speaker 1: best coverage play in the draft, that's like, you have
Speaker 1: the best coverage player in the draft. Be like out
Speaker 1: of the first round. Okay, he doesn't tackle, Well, let
Speaker 1: me ask.
Speaker 2: You a question. What's an important thing you're gonna need
Speaker 2: to do on defense?
Speaker 1: Tackle?
Speaker 2: And what does he not like to do?
Speaker 1: Tackle?
Speaker 2: Doesn't like to tackle?
Speaker 1: He doesn't like so important.
Speaker 2: But teams are going to see him out there and
Speaker 2: they're going to go, fine, we're just gonna run the
Speaker 2: ball at you.
Speaker 1: I know I don't like it, but he's the best
Speaker 1: coverage playing in the drafts. I mean, you can't disagree
Speaker 1: with that. I don't think I don't disagree for the
Speaker 1: same reason like Kaylen Bullock, Like he's a little bit
Speaker 1: more willing than Kailen Bullock to tackle, but it's not much,
Speaker 1: you know. And again he's playing corner so it's not
Speaker 1: as important. But his his his coverage fundamentals are excellent,
Speaker 1: and he's an excellent athlete. He's long, he's got all
Speaker 1: of these things. So he reminds me a little bit
Speaker 1: of Go from last year and that I wasn't overly physical.
Speaker 1: Now the difference about Gonzales that he had in the
Speaker 1: bag because he was like two ten, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, and then this guy's like one hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty pounds, so he's much thinner. So it is
Speaker 1: a concern for me. But I just I cannot get
Speaker 1: past how good he is in coverage. And I yeah.
Speaker 2: If you're Washington, you have Nate Williams on the team, right,
Speaker 2: which would be fantastic because you're playing Philadelphia and you
Speaker 2: can put them on AJ Brown or the Vonta Smithing.
Speaker 1: You feel good, yeah, right, But then they decide they're
Speaker 1: gonna run the ball.
Speaker 2: They're gonna run the ball.
Speaker 1: Well, that's where I got to make sure that my
Speaker 1: linebackers are linebackers got ear in your paychecks? Defensive ends,
Speaker 1: Let's work. Let's try to make sure that he doesn't
Speaker 1: have to have like these full head of steam like
Speaker 1: card run fits. Like we're gonna talk about TJ. Tampa
Speaker 1: here in a second, Like TJ Tampa mightbe be my
Speaker 1: favorite corner in the class. Worry about his top flight athleticism,
Speaker 1: but in a scheme similar to one that ran in Dallas,
Speaker 1: Like he's on the backside of a like with a
Speaker 1: two tight end set, two receivers away, slot away, and
Speaker 1: they're running right at him. I have a full one
Speaker 1: thousand percent confidence that he is going to get in
Speaker 1: there and get after that running back. And that's why
Speaker 1: I love him. He's got great alarm length. I love
Speaker 1: him as a prospect. But again I think that this, this,
Speaker 1: this is maybe the way to think about it for me.
Speaker 1: Nate Wiggins was so good at covering. I had to
Speaker 1: overlook that, Like that's out. That's the point I got to.
Speaker 1: He was such a good coverage player, I had to
Speaker 1: kind of put that aside. So just take there for
Speaker 1: what it is, Like he's not gonna tackle anybody if
Speaker 1: he can help it, but he will lock down anybody
Speaker 1: in coverage. So that's how I look.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think there's anything else to say about it.
Speaker 1: That's what he is.
Speaker 2: He's just he's just not gonna tackle, but he's gonna
Speaker 2: lock somebody there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what he is. And so I didn't know
Speaker 1: how Like, so I guess the question is leave a comment.
Speaker 1: Is how you value that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's interesting when you look at like a
Speaker 2: to Andre Sweat. He's not gonna he's not a great
Speaker 2: pass rusher, but he's gonna he's gonna clog up the run. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but we don't put him at number one. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: I guess it's I think it's his corner like value,
Speaker 2: it's position. Yeah, I get it. I I just I
Speaker 2: see it with it especially.
Speaker 1: It's like Chop I put in Robinson.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to play.
Speaker 1: Shop Robinson like and it will get And the thing
Speaker 1: about Chop Robinson that drives me absolutely bonkers is Chop
Speaker 1: Robinson is is is this is why the comparison don't work.
Speaker 1: Imagine if Chop Robinson had twenty seven sacks, like that's
Speaker 1: what Nate Wiggins, you know what I'm saying, Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just if he was productive, and I think that's
Speaker 1: the thing that I come back to anyway. Sorry, what
Speaker 1: are we doing? We're doing Cooper?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, the plus ones do Cooper.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you wanna go first?
Speaker 2: Sure, I got cam Hart from Notre Dame. The reason
Speaker 2: I put him one year. You'll probably maybe fourth round, third,
Speaker 2: fourth somewhere there. He's a bigger body corner that I
Speaker 2: think just you're gonna need some of those guys around here.
Speaker 2: And he's a good tackler. He's a decent coverage guy,
Speaker 2: good instincts, good instincts. I'm trying to get to him
Speaker 2: here real.
Speaker 1: Quick control, f blood control.
Speaker 2: I know, I know here, he is here, he is Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think he's smart football player, decent athleticism, willing tackler.
Speaker 2: All right, So what are the downsides? There's nothing that
Speaker 2: really stands.
Speaker 1: Out a little stiff, I think, yeah, for good.
Speaker 2: Or bad, he's just kind of he's there and he
Speaker 2: makes he's there to make the play, but he doesn't
Speaker 2: make a great play and he gets beat. But he's
Speaker 2: always when when someone catches his touchdown on him, he's
Speaker 2: right there, right, It's not like he was burnt toast, right,
Speaker 2: So he's he's kind of like he's.
Speaker 1: Good player and again great. I think the Senior Bowl
Speaker 1: kind of encapsulated that for me because he he made
Speaker 1: some great anticipatory interceptions. He does great in press coverage,
Speaker 1: and there's a couple of times where the guy across
Speaker 1: him is better and he loses a rep and I
Speaker 1: think you want to kind of get him in a
Speaker 1: scheme that's going to insulate him. But he's a big guy,
Speaker 1: seems really smart when you watch him play again, the
Speaker 1: stiffness is something that I keep coming back to. It's like,
Speaker 1: how does that play it? As eventually he moved to safety,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I like the player a lot. I think
Speaker 1: the third or fourth round range is a little bit different.
Speaker 1: I feel like I have the antithesis of you with
Speaker 1: my pick, even though they're very similar. Players. Is Kyrie
Speaker 1: Jackson from Oregon. He's six for He's one hundred ninety
Speaker 1: five pounds, crazy long arms, and he would transfer from Alabama,
Speaker 1: went to or is a little bit all over the place,
Speaker 1: like you know, like we talked about cam Heart being
Speaker 1: controlled and discipline and where he's supposed to be at
Speaker 1: all times, Like Kyrie Jackson is a wild horse man.
Speaker 1: He's a freaky athletic. He's got great length, he's got
Speaker 1: good recovery speed when you watch him. He's great in
Speaker 1: press man situations because his hands are on guys and
Speaker 1: he's long enough to like even if he gets beat
Speaker 1: the fleck passes. But in zone coverage, his eyes are
Speaker 1: a little bit all over the place. He's a willing tackler.
Speaker 1: He's downhill, just a lot of kind of rough edges
Speaker 1: on him that you need to file down. But I
Speaker 1: think the I think the player is there, and if
Speaker 1: the kids built the right way, you can get something.
Speaker 1: You can get a starter out of him, probably in
Speaker 1: the third fourth round area.
Speaker 2: I think, all right, here it is Cooper Jajen.
Speaker 1: No, here we go. So I have him as a
Speaker 1: corner corner, all right.
Speaker 2: The reason I have him as a corner is because
Speaker 2: that's a premium position and he does it really, really,
Speaker 2: really well. So why would I want to move him
Speaker 2: to safety where he does that well? But I would
Speaker 2: rather have him play corner because that's a pre position.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like vaky, right, Like, he's really good
Speaker 2: as a safety. He's good as a safety. He could
Speaker 2: be excellent as a running back, So why not move
Speaker 2: him to running back right, Like, it's one of those
Speaker 2: things where you're gonna have to justify that to me,
Speaker 2: which I think you'll make a good case. You've done
Speaker 2: it before. But he's big, he's comfortable playing with his
Speaker 2: eyes on the quarterback or the wide receiver, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: He feels fine back there. He has great footwork, nice
Speaker 2: click and clothes. Although it's not like explosive, it's very smooth.
Speaker 2: Mixes it up in the run game. He's not flashy.
Speaker 2: He just says everything. Well. I think you call him
Speaker 2: a football playing Johnny.
Speaker 1: Football paying john That's what he is. I agree, that's
Speaker 1: what my evaluation would read very similar. I think the
Speaker 1: one thing that kind of swayed me is there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of all twenty two of Iowa defense, but
Speaker 1: there's one game that's against Ohio State and they're in
Speaker 1: a lot of Cover three and he's off, like way off.
Speaker 1: And even in these off situations like Marvin Harrison Junior
Speaker 1: and the other receivers there, like they're running by and
Speaker 1: he's having a hard time with his turn. He's in
Speaker 1: these situations where you're like, there's when you watch him
Speaker 1: in his click and clothes, you say, it's like a
Speaker 1: little bit. It's deliberate, it's smooth. It is smooth, but
Speaker 1: there's also a little bit of stiff, the slightest bit
Speaker 1: of stiffness to him, right, because he's a little bit
Speaker 1: muscle bound. He's a little bit a bigger guy, right,
Speaker 1: And so I thought, yeah, like can he physically play corner? Sure,
Speaker 1: but when he goes up against the top flight receivers,
Speaker 1: like you're gonna be sweating bullets. Imagine to me, treat
Speaker 1: him like Rock Bowers and that he is a defensive weapon.
Speaker 1: Because when you watch Mniowa, he plays linebacker, plays Buffalo Nicho,
Speaker 1: plays safety, plays corner. You know else did that was
Speaker 1: what's what's the dude's name? From LSU a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, the Honey Badger. What's his name? Tyron Matthew,
Speaker 1: Tyron Matthew. If you get him in a situation like that,
Speaker 1: he will change your defense immediately. So I think that's
Speaker 1: a position of value. It's like, let him learn all
Speaker 1: these different spots. He did it. Like you said, he
Speaker 1: mixes up in the run game, he can covered tight ends.
Speaker 1: He's a good athlete, he's got good ball skills. I
Speaker 1: just worry about the top tier, flexibility and mobility to
Speaker 1: play corner, and why would I like It's like when
Speaker 1: it's like with Sam Cosby. Like Sam Cosby can play
Speaker 1: tackle and was fine playing tackle, but he's an elite guard.
Speaker 1: Like I want an elite guy that's going to be
Speaker 1: a chess peace on my defense. That's going to change
Speaker 1: the way we play the game from that standpoint. And
Speaker 1: so that's why I put him in safety.
Speaker 2: He has great ball skills, great balls, he returned that
Speaker 2: played well at safety. Yeah, I get Look, if you
Speaker 2: draft him, this is a good problem to have. He's
Speaker 2: so good we don't know where to put him. I'd
Speaker 2: be happy, super happy if he was somehow on Washington.
Speaker 2: All right, here it is the edges to round it
Speaker 2: out our top fives. I'll go first this time. I
Speaker 2: have at five Chris Braswell from Alabama, for Darius Robinson
Speaker 2: from Missouri, three Jared Verus Florida State, two Dallas Turner
Speaker 2: from Alabama, and one Leaatu Latu from Ucla.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've got five and it's kind of a slash,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna say that the first name. We'll talk
Speaker 1: about the other guy in a second. Darius Robinson from Missouri,
Speaker 1: Marshawn Neeland from Western Michigan, Jared Verse from Florida State,
Speaker 1: Dallas Turner from Alabama, and Laatu Latu from UCLA.
Speaker 2: Where would you like to start on this one? How
Speaker 2: about that we don't have Chop Robinson on.
Speaker 1: This Yeah, And to me, Chop Robinson's kind of slash five.
Speaker 1: He's probably my sixth guy on here. And he is
Speaker 1: he is so hard to talk about and evaluate because
Speaker 1: God bless he is. He's got juice, man, and I
Speaker 1: love the juice. When I see an edgresser with juice,
Speaker 1: it's hard for me not to just be like, take him,
Speaker 1: because it's hard to coach juice. But I just said,
Speaker 1: I want these are I like these football players better.
Speaker 1: I like Darius Robinson as a football player better. Like
Speaker 1: I watched the Missouri game versus LSU about five times,
Speaker 1: and that tackle that he's going against, the left tackle
Speaker 1: is going to be probably a second round pick next year,
Speaker 1: and he is wearing that guy out because he's got
Speaker 1: heavy hands, he's strong, he finishes, he's got great length,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like, you know, is he a defensive tackle?
Speaker 1: Is he a defensive end? I like the idea of
Speaker 1: him with a long runway just you know, being big
Speaker 1: and being mean and being physical. And again that's not
Speaker 1: to say CHOP's not a good football player. I just
Speaker 1: there's something about him that I just I like that
Speaker 1: about him.
Speaker 2: If I were to take Chop Robinson, I'd rather take
Speaker 2: Chris Braswell, really, yes, because I am I am kind
Speaker 2: of high on him because I think they have the
Speaker 2: same sort of things. Now, Chop does his one thing better,
Speaker 2: but I think Braswell has a very He's also very explosive,
Speaker 2: and he's just as raw his uh speed to power
Speaker 2: is that what they call it? Like very good? I
Speaker 2: would he's raw. I would rather take him than Chop
Speaker 2: personally because I think that there are some things there.
Speaker 2: He's he has hands that are fast, he has at
Speaker 2: athleticism to turn a little better than Chop does. So
Speaker 2: I'm just seeing these little things that like Chop is
Speaker 2: so fast, so fast off the line, he's dom treto
Speaker 2: and fast and furious, just live in his life a
Speaker 2: quarter mile at a time, get in the gas. But
Speaker 2: it's it's that turn is just and when you're that
Speaker 2: fast and you have that elite of a skill, why
Speaker 2: are you not productive in college.
Speaker 1: Right, that's maybe I don't know it could.
Speaker 2: Be, but it just scares me, right, it scares me.
Speaker 2: Whereas Braswell has all these freakish athletic traits and it's
Speaker 2: like he's showing a little bit more of Oh, I
Speaker 2: see something there athletically that I can coach up, where
Speaker 2: for instance, Chop is very stiff, looks like an action figure.
Speaker 2: You know those old wrestling action figures. They're plastic up
Speaker 2: top and they just they only turn like this. He
Speaker 2: looks like that. Brasswell doesn't look like that. No, he can,
Speaker 2: he can bend a little more. He's not super bendi,
Speaker 2: he's not a lot too, but there's enough there that
Speaker 2: I'm like, I would rather take that. I would do
Speaker 2: one tick less of that speed to get all these
Speaker 2: other things right. And that's why he's at five for me,
Speaker 2: and Chop is at like six seventies.
Speaker 1: He's right there, he's right there.
Speaker 2: But that's why he's up Brasswall.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, it's hard. It was hard for
Speaker 1: me not to put Chop my top five, just because
Speaker 1: he's got that juice. And you see clips to him,
Speaker 1: like highlights of him, like just his lateral quick, are
Speaker 1: you just like Wow, this guy in the right system,
Speaker 1: in the right setup, with the right coaching could be dangerous.
Speaker 1: But again I could hear my heart led me to
Speaker 1: the guy who plays football the way it should be
Speaker 1: played in that's Darius Robinson. Another guy, Marshawn Neelan. I'm
Speaker 1: probably a little higher on him the most. I just
Speaker 1: think when I watch him, he's six three, he's two seventy.
Speaker 1: He's got great bend, he's got great change direction. He
Speaker 1: plays like an absolute maniac. At Western Michigan plays like
Speaker 1: a maniac. And at the Senior Bowl, I thought he
Speaker 1: showed enough pass rush upside of how to kind of
Speaker 1: nice little euro step speed to power. There was more
Speaker 1: diversity of his pass rush there. And I want him
Speaker 1: on the team. I want him here because I really
Speaker 1: appreciate that type of football player and that type of mentality.
Speaker 1: And I think his floor is really high. I think
Speaker 1: his ceiling's really high. I like him. I just I
Speaker 1: love what he brings. And that's all I can That's
Speaker 1: all I have to say about him.
Speaker 2: All Right, let's do Jared versut Alisna a lot to
Speaker 2: real quick. First, what do you like about him?
Speaker 1: Verse? He's physical, as all get out. Man, he'll dent
Speaker 1: your face mask. He'll be physical. Love that about him.
Speaker 1: He's very productive. He is a great athlete. I think
Speaker 1: the one thing is the bend, and that's why he's
Speaker 1: three for me. He just doesn't bend at a high level,
Speaker 1: and he gets me concerned about his ability to take
Speaker 1: that elite power from six sacks to ten or eleven sacks.
Speaker 1: So that's my only concern with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw that he whips every now and then
Speaker 2: on tackles. It's a small thing. His hands are like clubs. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're very strong, very aggressive, like Claymore swords. He's just
Speaker 2: swinging those around and they look like they hurt. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he's very strong, very aggressive. Dallas Turner, why do you
Speaker 2: like him at two? Because we have the same ones here.
Speaker 2: That's why I'm just going on.
Speaker 1: Turner is the freak of the class. Everyone says chop,
Speaker 1: but I think when you look at his measurables, his bend,
Speaker 1: his agilities, his production, he's a freak. I think you
Speaker 1: don't see the most intuitive football player of all time,
Speaker 1: and I think that's why it's hard. It's because he's productive,
Speaker 1: But to my mind, he should be more productive is
Speaker 1: really what it comes down to. But I think I
Speaker 1: think with the right coaching and the right system, Like
Speaker 1: if I'm a scout, if I'm a GM, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: drafting him basically saying, coach, figure it out. Like he's
Speaker 1: got it, we know he's got it, we've seen it.
Speaker 1: Make it happen more, and that's all we're doing. And
Speaker 1: I think you get a ten eleven sec guy kind
Speaker 1: of out that got the gate just based on athletic Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's not just and that's not just speed that's
Speaker 1: been that's strength, that's all of these things. Like his
Speaker 1: combine was legendary. Like he's like forty inch vertical around
Speaker 1: a four four seven. He's got thirty five inch Like
Speaker 1: he is a freaky dude. He's six foot. He's built
Speaker 1: to be a pass rusher. He's built to be a
Speaker 1: pass rusher. So that's why just coach, figure it out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I called him Chop Robinson with bend perfect. And
Speaker 2: this is why Chop is just not up there because
Speaker 2: he it's awesome that you're fast, but like Turner is
Speaker 2: fast and can bend. Yeah, right, he's got the motor.
Speaker 2: The thing is the same as chap Robinson is a
Speaker 2: little wild at times, like his hands are sometimes kind
Speaker 2: of all over the place.
Speaker 1: To say that, because I feel like a lot of
Speaker 1: people have him as a lock to Atlanta at eight.
Speaker 1: But to me, I'm like, it's a he's got to
Speaker 1: develop a little bit.
Speaker 2: It's a development piece. But man, all the pieces are
Speaker 2: all the pieces are there, which leads to I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people have Let Okay, he's my number one.
Speaker 2: I don't think he's going off the board as the
Speaker 2: first RUSS. I just don't. And it's because of the
Speaker 2: medical history. And I have a hard time figuring out
Speaker 2: where to place him when it comes to mock drafts
Speaker 2: that we do or these top fives because of that
Speaker 2: medical history. And a part of me is like the
Speaker 2: dude decided to play, So I'm just gonna ignore it.
Speaker 2: And maybe that's maybe that's wrong of me, and maybe
Speaker 2: NFL teams are not doing that. They're probably not doing
Speaker 2: that because you're investing a lot in this. But I
Speaker 2: want to take the ninja black belt.
Speaker 1: Dude. Dude's got no bones. Yeah crazy, He's so good
Speaker 1: is his bend, his timing, his rolodex of moves. He's
Speaker 1: not a bad and not a great athlete, not a
Speaker 1: bad athlete, but just like, watch he.
Speaker 2: Tested better at the combine than you thought, which is
Speaker 2: that only Yeah, we were like, oh, well, he's not
Speaker 2: gonna be a great athlete, he's not gonna do what.
Speaker 1: But but then he takes like right right in the middle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so like, whoa, that's what, right in the middle
Speaker 1: with one of the most productive college pass rushers ever.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, why isn't this guy being talked about
Speaker 1: going higher? And you know, you watch the USC game,
Speaker 1: watch the Utah game, watch the Oregon State game. Do
Speaker 1: like there's times where he just he can't be touched,
Speaker 1: like and it's unbelievable. And it's not just one play.
Speaker 1: It's like play after play after play after play, and
Speaker 1: just again, the medical is a concern. Maybe the top
Speaker 1: flight athleticism doesn't really bother me, but I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: concerning to some. But the film, the film is the film,
Speaker 1: and he's got the best film in the class.
Speaker 2: I think, oh my gosh. Yeah, And what you're saying,
Speaker 2: like his bend is how he dips his shoulders, like
Speaker 2: you said, no bones just looks like water running. When
Speaker 2: we were at the Senior Bowl. They were just doing
Speaker 2: a drill where they were bending and turning around the
Speaker 2: upright write that post and it's like you were like,
Speaker 2: that's him, and he's like, oh, yeah, you can tell.
Speaker 2: It just looks different. It's funny. I actually got out
Speaker 2: my phone the other day. I deleted the recording so
Speaker 2: you can't ask for it. But there's a pillar at
Speaker 2: my in law's house, their home, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to try that, and I tried that drill
Speaker 2: of like bending out.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's crazy.
Speaker 2: I had to move so slow to get my body
Speaker 2: to do that. And of course I am not the
Speaker 2: same in the same athletic condition as he is, but
Speaker 2: I was trying, and my wife's like, what are you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just want to see what he's doing
Speaker 2: and then imagine trying to do it one hundred times faster,
Speaker 2: and it's wild that he can do that. It's really
Speaker 2: wild body control.
Speaker 1: Honestly, if you guys just have like a couple of minutes,
Speaker 1: go look up a highlight or go watch the USC game,
Speaker 1: go watch the Utah game. Like it's it's very impressive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only does he have these things, it's
Speaker 2: if he gets caught in one of them or one
Speaker 2: of them isn't successful, immediately transitions into something else.
Speaker 1: So such a fantastic is everybody else in this class
Speaker 1: into your ed drusher linebacker the second they get caught,
Speaker 1: they're boned. And he just has the ability to be like, Nope,
Speaker 1: I got my next thing. Oh you got that one too,
Speaker 1: next thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he could do. I've I saw at the Senior Bowl.
Speaker 2: There was one rep. It was a one on one.
Speaker 2: I can't remember who it was he was going against, but.
Speaker 1: The tackle did it from Utah.
Speaker 2: He did a good job. He held him right and
Speaker 2: Leotu tried the bend didn't work. I think he tried
Speaker 2: like I tried to spin and then it didn't work.
Speaker 2: And it was like then a swim or.
Speaker 1: You kind of hit him with like what I call
Speaker 1: like a bull like a bullet transition, Like I hit
Speaker 1: him down the middle of the guy did a great
Speaker 1: job finding the edge and then he just kind of
Speaker 1: tapped his elbow, worked his shoulder over, ducked his inside
Speaker 1: shoulder and was right there for the place.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's like whoa yeah, like the yeah, Jean
Speaker 2: Claude Fan Dam's nindro back there, he's got.
Speaker 1: All the moves and who's your plus one? I like
Speaker 1: your plus one a lot. Almost put him on here.
Speaker 2: Jonah Ellis, Yeah, he is from Utah. He to me
Speaker 2: on films. He looks small, but he has long arms.
Speaker 2: He measured decently long arms, and he has good bursts
Speaker 2: and exposure energy, excellent motor, keeps working even when blocked
Speaker 2: up well, like even if he's he is not gonna stop,
Speaker 2: just trying to grind. He can lose his balance just
Speaker 2: a little bit, but he's got quick feet and he
Speaker 2: uses those long arms to eventually shed the blocks. I
Speaker 2: just I like his motor. I like his tenacity and.
Speaker 1: Got an absolutely brutal spin move. Like his spin move
Speaker 1: is excellent.
Speaker 2: There you go see excellent.
Speaker 1: He's got an excellent spin move. He's got like a
Speaker 1: nice past rush pedigree. His dad, his brother, his cousin,
Speaker 1: his other brother Ale play in the NFL. He knows
Speaker 1: what this is about. Like I love there's a thing.
Speaker 1: Like he's a little underside, but his length you can
Speaker 1: see tight ends and tackles try to get on him.
Speaker 1: He understands how to kind of work his hips, use
Speaker 1: his length. Throw guys on the ground pursuit of the football.
Speaker 1: Like he's just got it, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like I worry a little bit about his side. I
Speaker 1: think he's only six two right, six two, Yeah, a
Speaker 1: little undersize, so like what's his role? But like in
Speaker 1: a stand up three four edge guy, you know, situational
Speaker 1: pass rush guy. I really liked that.
Speaker 2: I could see him aut a place like this and
Speaker 2: having a.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like finding it like they like this staff would
Speaker 1: find a way to get him on the field and
Speaker 1: make productive.
Speaker 2: This for him and your guy.
Speaker 1: I love your guy too, Javon Solomon. Is he six
Speaker 1: foot or is he six?
Speaker 2: Real quick?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Six foot? I think he's four he's a two
Speaker 1: forty sixth sixty five. Oh, he's definitely not six to two.
Speaker 1: He's shorter than that for sure.
Speaker 2: I bet it's what do you wait? That's what he
Speaker 2: measured in at at the Commine. Yeah, six two forty five.
Speaker 1: He was so like, why would he have six? Anyway?
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. I think what I love about this
Speaker 1: guy is he's short. He's kind of stubby, he doesn't
Speaker 1: have long arms, but has great kind of bounding ability
Speaker 1: and a great feel for pass rush. He had seventeen
Speaker 1: sacks last year and that production is awesome. And I
Speaker 1: think if you were to get him in like a
Speaker 1: Bryce Huff type role where he's a situational pass rusher
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, a guy that can move
Speaker 1: around the formation, started off ball linebacker again, a place
Speaker 1: like this is going to his pass rushing ability would
Speaker 1: be awesome. Really like him again, undersized, you know, to
Speaker 1: strugg a little bit at the COMBA or at the
Speaker 1: Senior Bowl. Not an every down player just yet, but
Speaker 1: I really like people that have a good feel for
Speaker 1: rushing the passer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think his size is what could be limiting,
Speaker 2: but he's going to be a rotational pass rusher almost immediately. Right,
Speaker 2: he's got I think you say this before, he's got
Speaker 2: the juice right, Just there's something that he was at Troy,
Speaker 2: right and he dominated, which is what you want to
Speaker 2: see from a guy at facing the type of competition
Speaker 2: that he would. Yeah, So that did it, right.
Speaker 1: Let's sad it we made it through the whole defense
Speaker 1: and we only talked about quarterback for like thirty second second. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's going to do it. And again, lots
Speaker 1: of defensive prospects in there, if there's a guy that
Speaker 1: you guys like that we didn't talk about, please throw
Speaker 1: him in there. We got a couple more shows to
Speaker 1: go yet. Before the draft, we'll make sure we talk
Speaker 1: about those players. Remember there's about three hundred and farder guys.
Speaker 1: We have watch all of them yet, We're gonna be honest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I watched a lot of them without all of them.
Speaker 2: And it's hard to recall them. I have to have
Speaker 2: my computer here because I'm I don't have to recall
Speaker 2: you do. It's amazing that you can remember these arm
Speaker 2: lengths and all.
Speaker 1: Of that's it's like it's an obsession, you know what.
Speaker 1: I think about it all the time.
Speaker 2: It's pretty crazy. All right. So next week we'll have
Speaker 2: Connor Rodgers. He'll do tight ends with you, and of
Speaker 2: course you can't escape the quarterback discussion. I'm sure he'll
Speaker 2: talk about that. Yeah, And then following that, it will
Speaker 2: be the week of the draft and we will have
Speaker 2: an episode that is very special for you. We can
Speaker 2: announce it because we're gonna do it.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do a seven round, we hit ourselves round.
Speaker 2: And it's going to be Selby and Fred Smooter are
Speaker 2: going to join in this one, and we're gonna do
Speaker 2: it the week of the draft, and that way people
Speaker 2: can listen to it and then hear how wrong we
Speaker 2: are almost immediately because the drafts are just like who
Speaker 2: knows well, but we're gonna do all seven rounds where
Speaker 2: you get every pick.
Speaker 1: We're excited about it, so thank you so much for joining,
Speaker 1: and please make sure to like and subscribe wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. That's it, that's it. H