WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 247 0:00:01.870 --> 0:00:02.930 Call zone media. 0:00:03.370 --> 0:00:05.700 Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.740 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.619 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.780 --> 0:00:16.540 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.579 --> 0:00:19.079 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.100 --> 0:00:21.050 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.110 --> 0:00:22.850 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.210 --> 0:00:24.410 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:29.060 --> 0:00:31.659 Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Kevin Foster, and 0:00:31.700 --> 0:00:33.740 for the past few months I've witnessed what I would 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.970 describe as an egregious billionaire handout going down in the 0:00:37.010 --> 0:00:39.570 city of Portland and the state of Oregon as a whole. 0:00:40.270 --> 0:00:42.970 You might feel nauseous thinking about your tax dollars going 0:00:43.010 --> 0:00:46.350 to some wealthy bastard, and trust me, he is a bastard, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.019 but what if I told you it was for basketball? 0:00:49.500 --> 0:00:51.960 That probably sounds silly to many of you, but that's 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.770 the question Portlanders have been grappling with. Tom Dundon, a 0:00:55.870 --> 0:01:00.790 Texas billionaire businessman, bought the NBA's Portland Trailblazers in April 0:01:00.850 --> 0:01:03.290 of this year. You may or may not have heard 0:01:03.330 --> 0:01:05.810 of Dundon. He made the rounds not too long ago 0:01:05.890 --> 0:01:10.060 when the other sports team he owns, the NHL's Carolina Hurricanes, 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.880 won the Stanley Cup. Notably, he engraved his dog's name 0:01:13.980 --> 0:01:17.040 on it to the distaste of many hockey fans. Since 0:01:17.100 --> 0:01:20.380 Dundon took over the Blazers, he's fueled constant chatter about 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.650 the possibility of moving the team out of Portland. He's 0:01:23.690 --> 0:01:26.690 done so by demanding the city, county, and state hand 0:01:26.770 --> 0:01:31.220 over approximately $ 600 million in public funds to renovate the 0:01:31.260 --> 0:01:35.620 Moda Center, the Blazers Stadium, which our wonderful producer Sophie 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.919 has informed me is already quite nice. Despite Forbes estimating 0:01:39.980 --> 0:01:44.030 Dundon's net worth at around $ 2. 3 billion, he has no 0:01:44.130 --> 0:01:47.630 plans of contributing to the renovation himself, leaving it all 0:01:47.730 --> 0:01:52.470 to the taxpayers. There's a very dedicated Blazers community here 0:01:52.510 --> 0:01:56.120 in town, So the threats of leaving rang major alarm bells, 0:01:56.670 --> 0:01:59.930 but what has ensued is a revealing cascade of insights 0:02:00.030 --> 0:02:05.110 into local corruption, economic desperation, and a deep misunderstanding and 0:02:05.230 --> 0:02:09.489 or willful ignorance of sports economics. So today we're going 0:02:09.510 --> 0:02:12.510 to talk about the economics of sports and stadiums, why 0:02:12.550 --> 0:02:15.690 these investments are awful for your city to make, and 0:02:15.740 --> 0:02:18.180 what to watch out for as the business lobby and 0:02:18.260 --> 0:02:22.220 politicians in your town try to line the pockets of billionaires. 0:02:22.900 --> 0:02:25.080 While they will talk a lot about Portland, I want 0:02:25.100 --> 0:02:27.299 to be clear, a great deal of this could very 0:02:27.460 --> 0:02:30.720 easily spread across the country as Dundon sets a new 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:35.350 precedent for what executives can scrape from taxpayers. On that note, 0:02:35.430 --> 0:02:37.810 I'd like to do a mini dive into Tom Dundon 0:02:37.950 --> 0:02:40.070 and some of his co-owners to give you a sense 0:02:40.110 --> 0:02:42.310 of the types of people we're dealing with here. A 0:02:42.870 --> 0:02:46.300 mini behind the bastards, if you will. For one, Dundon 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.579 is a known penny pincher, in other words, a piece 0:02:49.620 --> 0:02:53.220 of shit. Some of his cost-cutting measures just since taking 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.820 over the Blazers include massive layoffs of up to 70 0:02:56.820 --> 0:03:00.820 Blazers staff, leaving part-time players at home in Portland in 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.210 the middle of the playoffs, breaking playoff tradition by not 0:03:04.250 --> 0:03:09.390 giving fans free t-shirts, ignoring players' coaching requests, and undercutting 0:03:09.430 --> 0:03:11.950 the pay of the coach he did end up hiring. 0:03:12.700 --> 0:03:15.600 And it gets worse. Dundon made most of his money 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.639 in the subprime auto loan industry with the company Santander 0:03:19.740 --> 0:03:24.929 Consumer USA. According to Boston University finance professor Mark Williams, 0:03:25.350 --> 0:03:29.630 as referenced in an Oregon Public Broadcasting article, Dundon was, quote, 0:03:29.950 --> 0:03:33.609 one of the individuals that really grew the industry. Many 0:03:33.630 --> 0:03:36.350 would argue he took it to a new level, unquote. 0:03:37.140 --> 0:03:39.680 According to the New York Times, part of how Dundon 0:03:39.740 --> 0:03:43.900 and other Santander executives made millions was by packaging risky 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.700 loans for low-income people into securities that could be sold, 0:03:48.100 --> 0:03:51.500 a la the 2008 financial crisis and what Wall Street 0:03:51.540 --> 0:03:56.670 ghouls did with mortgages. The various malpractices, which Santander never 0:03:56.710 --> 0:03:59.410 had to admit to in court, resulted in $ 550 million 0:03:59.470 --> 0:04:05.620 worth of legal settlements, including in Oregon. If you're waiting 0:04:05.660 --> 0:04:08.860 for some sort of karmic relief, it isn't really coming. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:14.660 Dundon walked away from Santander in 2015 with $ 700 million. 0:04:15.100 --> 0:04:18.440 He then continued to invest in subprime auto lenders while 0:04:18.460 --> 0:04:23.770 expanding into professional sports. This man is not well-liked, even 0:04:23.810 --> 0:04:26.969 by people who are clearly desperate to keep the Blazers here. 0:04:27.570 --> 0:04:30.610 For example, in a recent city council meeting, one fan 0:04:30.670 --> 0:04:32.990 who was in support of a public subsidy for the 0:04:33.029 --> 0:04:38.530 Blazers called Dundon a, quote, grade-A douchebag, unquote. And in 0:04:38.589 --> 0:04:41.130 order to buy the Blazers, Dundon had to put together 0:04:41.150 --> 0:04:45.320 an ownership group. One lesser-reported individual in that group is 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.800 Mark Zahr, the co-president of the shadow bank Blue Owl Capital. 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.840 On their website, Blue Owl calls themselves a, quote, partner 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.060 to hyperscalers, unquote, in the AI data center space. And 0:04:58.100 --> 0:05:01.880 according to Bloomberg, they also sold a warehouse to DHS 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:07.470 for an ICE megaprison for $ 120 million. Needless to say, 0:05:07.490 --> 0:05:12.070 these guys don't really embody the typical Portland energy. To 0:05:12.110 --> 0:05:14.510 be fair to Dundon and Czar, not that I'd really 0:05:14.570 --> 0:05:18.839 feel the need to, they're in piss-poor company among NBA owners. 0:05:19.589 --> 0:05:23.410 Oregon Public Broadcasting described the ownership roster in the league 0:05:23.610 --> 0:05:27.680 as a, quote, billionaires club whose past and current members 0:05:27.860 --> 0:05:31.880 or their companies have been accused of housing discrimination, knowingly 0:05:31.980 --> 0:05:37.539 underwriting improper mortgages, exploiting prison inmates, making racist comments, and 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:43.130 engaging in sexual misconduct, unquote. Apparently, the former Blazers owner 0:05:43.210 --> 0:05:47.900 Jody Allen settled lawsuits over alleged sexual harassment, and attempting 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.780 to smuggle penguin skulls and giraffe bones out of Antarctica 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:56.080 and Africa. That's pretty much par for the course for billionaires, 0:05:56.220 --> 0:05:58.710 which is exactly why I think this issue is worth 0:05:58.770 --> 0:06:01.950 paying attention to. At some point, Dundon is going to 0:06:02.029 --> 0:06:03.990 end up in a room with all the other owners 0:06:04.170 --> 0:06:06.870 and talk about this sweet deal he got with just 0:06:06.930 --> 0:06:09.910 a bit of posturing and lobbying. And you don't have 0:06:09.930 --> 0:06:13.100 to take it from me. Here's renowned sports economist J.C. 0:06:13.180 --> 0:06:17.320 Bradbury talking about the dynamics between sports owners. This is 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.010 from a webinar hosted by a few of the Portland 0:06:20.050 --> 0:06:23.290 City Councilors who actually pushed back against this deal. 0:06:23.310 --> 0:06:26.770 There's a great quote in Kim Belson's recent book on 0:06:26.990 --> 0:06:29.820 the NFL in which he interviews Stephen Jones, the son 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.380 of Jerry Jones, owner of the Dallas Cowboys. And he 0:06:32.420 --> 0:06:36.010 describes the relationship as this. He said, as a competitive guy, 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.330 he describes a competitive businessman culture among sports team owners. 0:06:40.370 --> 0:06:43.310 He says, accumulating money is keeping score. 0:06:43.730 --> 0:06:45.830 Jerry may not need more money, but if he doesn't 0:06:45.870 --> 0:06:48.260 make it, in his mind, he has failed. And I 0:06:48.260 --> 0:06:49.920 think that's what you're seeing a lot with owners. 0:06:49.940 --> 0:06:50.900 They're trying to one-up it. 0:06:51.430 --> 0:06:51.850 Up each other. 0:06:51.870 --> 0:06:52.530 And I think it's interesting. 0:06:52.589 --> 0:06:54.470 A lot of times you see owners go out and 0:06:54.490 --> 0:06:56.910 they donate vast amounts of money to charity, but then 0:06:56.930 --> 0:06:58.890 they go and ask for subsidies. And that seems like 0:06:58.930 --> 0:06:59.609 a contradiction. 0:06:59.690 --> 0:07:00.830 And I think what people need to. 0:07:00.830 --> 0:07:05.370 Understand is that these owners, they're not even necessarily interested 0:07:05.410 --> 0:07:06.950 in making money for themselves. 0:07:07.190 --> 0:07:08.750 They have billions of dollars. 0:07:08.790 --> 0:07:09.650 They're very wealthy. 0:07:11.110 --> 0:07:13.050 What they want to do is invite all the owners 0:07:13.130 --> 0:07:15.110 in and say, look at what I got these suckers 0:07:15.150 --> 0:07:17.310 to buy me. And they all high five each other. 0:07:17.730 --> 0:07:20.480 And they laugh at politicians who back them when they 0:07:20.500 --> 0:07:20.920 leave the room. 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.520 The funny thing about all this for me is I 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.340 don't really care for basketball. I like to think this 0:07:26.380 --> 0:07:29.860 helps me approach the issue from a relatively objective standpoint, 0:07:29.980 --> 0:07:32.080 which is why I'm all the more confident in the 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.630 experts on this saying you'd have to be a fool 0:07:34.710 --> 0:07:37.630 to support these investments. But you know what else would 0:07:37.650 --> 0:07:40.350 be a good investment? Maybe some of the products and 0:07:40.370 --> 0:07:42.050 services that support this podcast. 0:07:53.180 --> 0:07:53.739 And we're back. 0:07:54.100 --> 0:07:56.140 Now that we have a sense of the demons we're 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.950 dealing with, let's talk about sports economics. If I learned 0:08:00.050 --> 0:08:03.370 anything from my degree in economics, other than how pretentious 0:08:03.510 --> 0:08:06.770 most econ majors are, it's that the answer to many 0:08:06.830 --> 0:08:11.110 questions is just, it depends, and there's rarely consensus on 0:08:11.250 --> 0:08:14.720 any given issue. Sports economics, though, is one of those 0:08:14.860 --> 0:08:20.090 rare cases where most people actually agree. Politicians, business leaders, 0:08:20.170 --> 0:08:24.000 and sports team representatives will boast about the economic boon 0:08:24.100 --> 0:08:27.120 a team is to your city. They'll talk about the jobs, 0:08:27.260 --> 0:08:30.880 people going out to bars and restaurants, and supposed economic growth. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.880 In reality, sports teams suffer from something called the substitution effect. 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.330 In the Journal of Economic Perspectives, economists John Siegfried and 0:08:40.450 --> 0:08:44.869 Andrew Zimbalist explain this in detail. The vast majority of 0:08:44.950 --> 0:08:49.120 consumers has a relatively inflexible leisure budget. If a sports 0:08:49.179 --> 0:08:52.040 team moves to town, the money one spends taking a 0:08:52.090 --> 0:08:54.830 family to a game typically is money that is not 0:08:54.929 --> 0:08:59.410 spent at a local bowling alley, golf course, restaurant, or theater. 0:09:00.030 --> 0:09:03.050 The net effect on spending in the metropolitan area, then, 0:09:03.190 --> 0:09:06.770 is zero or very close to zero. While sports teams 0:09:06.830 --> 0:09:10.530 may rearrange the spending and economic activity in an urban area, 0:09:10.830 --> 0:09:14.280 they are not likely to add much to it. Don't 0:09:14.300 --> 0:09:17.310 get me wrong, I'm all for defunding golf courses, but 0:09:17.350 --> 0:09:20.730 with sports stadiums, we're really just moving money around rather 0:09:20.770 --> 0:09:24.010 than growing. And funny enough, this can actually have a 0:09:24.130 --> 0:09:27.530 negative effect on surrounding businesses because people spend more at 0:09:27.570 --> 0:09:31.160 the game, putting money into Tom Dundon's pocket instead of 0:09:31.220 --> 0:09:34.980 the local community. The counter-argument to this is that sports 0:09:35.020 --> 0:09:37.800 teams bring in tourists from out of region or out 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.700 of state, leading to greater profits, but this also doesn't 0:09:41.740 --> 0:09:46.540 necessarily ring true. Here's Victor Matheson, another leading sports economist, 0:09:46.610 --> 0:09:49.570 in that same webinar with the Portland City Councilors. 0:09:50.470 --> 0:09:52.010 I've actually studied this extensively. 0:09:52.030 --> 0:09:56.810 There is exactly zero impact on hotel room stays. 0:09:56.850 --> 0:09:58.610 And by zero, I mean literally zero. 0:09:58.890 --> 0:09:59.910 Literally no. 0:10:00.150 --> 0:10:03.530 Hotel rooms anywhere in the country get sold because people 0:10:03.550 --> 0:10:07.130 decide to come to a city to go see the NBA. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.340 I'm not certain exactly which studies Matheson is referencing, but 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.980 he says they've looked into at least a dozen major 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.540 cities and hundreds of game nights, finding no effect on 0:10:17.620 --> 0:10:21.240 hotel stays from the NBA. One example backing this up 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.630 is a 2018 study by Craig E. Depkin and E. 0:10:24.690 --> 0:10:28.790 Frank Stevenson of Charlotte, North Carolina, which found that NBA 0:10:28.870 --> 0:10:32.550 regular season games were not associated with a net increase 0:10:32.650 --> 0:10:36.940 in hotel registrations or hotel revenues the day before, the 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.319 day of, or the day after a game. They did 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.380 find some increases for multi-day events, but the overall conclusion 0:10:44.420 --> 0:10:47.410 of the study is that hotel tax receipts fall short 0:10:47.450 --> 0:10:51.609 of the debt service incurred from stadium investments. On a 0:10:51.670 --> 0:10:54.870 larger scale, things like the Olympics and World Cup are 0:10:54.890 --> 0:10:58.490 a similar story, even with such a specific focus on 0:10:58.550 --> 0:11:03.420 international travel. A February 2026 article from the Council on 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.880 Foreign Relations indicates multiple Olympic host cities in recent decades 0:11:08.020 --> 0:11:12.320 lost billions and that the economic benefits are dubious at best. 0:11:13.050 --> 0:11:17.370 Matheson suggested in a 2006 paper that these mega events 0:11:17.450 --> 0:11:20.370 can potentially lead to a profit for a city if 0:11:20.410 --> 0:11:24.980 they use existing infrastructure, such as the case of the 0:11:24.980 --> 0:11:28.300 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, but this isn't always the case. 0:11:29.140 --> 0:11:32.920 And to give a sense of the broader economic consensus, 0:11:32.980 --> 0:11:37.050 a 2005 random sample survey of the American Economic Association 0:11:37.110 --> 0:11:41.760 members found that 86% agreed or strongly agreed with the 0:11:41.820 --> 0:11:46.410 elimination of state and local subsidies for sports franchises, versus 0:11:46.429 --> 0:11:51.710 just 5% in opposition. A 2008 paper by Dennis Coates 0:11:51.830 --> 0:11:55.530 and Brad R. Humphreys states, quote, the large and growing 0:11:55.630 --> 0:12:00.480 peer-reviewed economics literature on the economic impacts of stadiums, arenas, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:05.880 sports franchises, and sport mega-events has consistently found no substantial 0:12:05.980 --> 0:12:09.719 evidence of increased jobs, incomes or tax revenues for a 0:12:09.780 --> 0:12:15.070 community associated with any of these things, unquote. Matheson himself 0:12:15.190 --> 0:12:18.290 examined the other side of the argument on stadium subsidies 0:12:18.429 --> 0:12:21.900 in a 2018 paper published in the Journal of Policy 0:12:21.940 --> 0:12:24.970 Analysis and Management. He points out that there may be 0:12:25.070 --> 0:12:28.490 rare cases where public subsidies make sense, but at nowhere 0:12:28.550 --> 0:12:32.580 near the level that American taxpayers are contributing. Basically, the 0:12:32.620 --> 0:12:35.600 percent of funding that should come from public contribution may 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.760 be simply greater than zero, but not very significant. At 0:12:39.780 --> 0:12:42.050 the end of the day, what this really amounts to 0:12:42.130 --> 0:12:45.569 is another massive handout for the wealthy, while the poor 0:12:45.690 --> 0:12:49.469 and working class pay the price in taxes or cut services. 0:12:50.130 --> 0:12:53.079 It's big business fucking over the little guy who often 0:12:53.130 --> 0:12:55.939 can't afford to go to the game, or is making 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:01.200 a dogshit part-time wage working concessions at the stadium. And 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.600 to bring it back to Portland, the mayor has talked 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.280 about financing this deal with climate funds, which are already 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.719 allocated to different projects. There's a real opportunity cost to 0:13:11.900 --> 0:13:15.410 using public funding for sports rather than on city needs, 0:13:15.790 --> 0:13:18.970 and that absolutely needs to be factored into the equation. 0:13:19.700 --> 0:13:22.980 One of the most basic sort of capitalist econ 101 0:13:22.980 --> 0:13:25.860 lessons is that there's just no such thing as a 0:13:25.980 --> 0:13:29.020 free lunch. This money has to come from somewhere, and 0:13:29.059 --> 0:13:31.820 that means other programs get the short end of the stick. 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.540 Over the past few weeks, I've noticed there's this perception 0:13:35.580 --> 0:13:39.360 that Portland is somehow unique, that losing the Blazers would 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.790 send the city into financial ruin. Apparently, this is quite common, 0:13:43.990 --> 0:13:47.530 as J.C. Bradbury's new book is literally titled This One 0:13:47.590 --> 0:13:51.730 Will Be Different, False Promises and Fiscal Realities of Publicly 0:13:51.809 --> 0:13:55.189 Funded Stadiums. In just a bit, I'm going to dive 0:13:55.250 --> 0:13:58.980 into the tactics owners use to shake down cities, but 0:13:59.100 --> 0:14:02.060 one way they've done so in Portland is by broadening 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:06.960 the conversation to our entire economy. I've watched city councilors 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.890 play directly into this, claiming the city's economy is heavily 0:14:10.950 --> 0:14:15.250 based on perception while they make decisions that arguably worsen 0:14:15.340 --> 0:14:20.460 that perception. It's a paradoxical position. We're struggling, so we 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:22.700 need to spend a bunch of money on something that 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.680 won't make us that money back. That's the level of 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.050 cognitive dissonance we're dealing with here, and it's all backed 0:14:29.150 --> 0:14:32.890 up by the business lobby. Our previous city council system 0:14:33.150 --> 0:14:36.550 penned a deal buying the Moda Center for one dollar. 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.630 Very clearly, they took on a liability, not an asset, 0:14:40.990 --> 0:14:43.910 and left us on the hook. There's this fear of 0:14:43.950 --> 0:14:47.410 the Moda Center becoming a derelict mass and a stain 0:14:47.470 --> 0:14:50.890 on the city if it's not renovated. People generally seem 0:14:50.930 --> 0:14:54.650 to agree that it needs renovations, whether for basketball or 0:14:54.710 --> 0:14:58.030 for concerts, but looking at other cities who lost their 0:14:58.050 --> 0:15:02.120 sports teams, a rotting concrete corpse is just simply not 0:15:02.180 --> 0:15:06.560 an inevitability. An article in Blazer's Edge, a Blazers news 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.760 blog and community site owned by sports media conglomerate SB Nation, 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.410 pointed out how multiple other arenas across the U.S. have 0:15:14.450 --> 0:15:19.050 seen record profits after losing their anchor tenant. The Desert 0:15:19.110 --> 0:15:23.840 Diamond Arena in Glendale, Arizona lost the NHL's Arizona Coyotes 0:15:23.860 --> 0:15:27.790 in 2022 and In the year after, according to Glendale 0:15:27.830 --> 0:15:31.740 City Manager Kevin Phelps, the arena broke its revenue record 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.140 by nearly $ 10 million. After the Golden State Warriors left 0:15:36.180 --> 0:15:39.900 the Oakland Arena in 2019, it had its best fiscal 0:15:39.940 --> 0:15:45.750 year ever in 2023 and reduced its operating deficit by 97% 0:15:45.750 --> 0:15:49.090 over the four years. And Key Arena, once hosting the 0:15:49.150 --> 0:15:53.110 Seattle Supersonics, a team referenced heavily by supporters of a 0:15:53.150 --> 0:15:57.270 Blazers subsidy, operated at a loss under the NBA team, 0:15:57.350 --> 0:16:00.650 according to Blazer's Edge, but it turned a bigger profit 0:16:00.700 --> 0:16:04.220 than ever after they left by, quote, freeing up the 0:16:04.260 --> 0:16:08.500 stadium revenue the sports teams were hoarding for themselves, unquote. 0:16:09.220 --> 0:16:12.540 I have to emphasize, even with mountains of evidence, reporting 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.200 on this deal in Portland has felt like a truly 0:16:15.340 --> 0:16:20.130 Sisyphusian task, with the sheer volume of misinformation being thrown 0:16:20.250 --> 0:16:24.610 out by our own elected officials and at times the media. Surprisingly, 0:16:24.710 --> 0:16:27.700 some of the broadcast outlets have had some solid articles 0:16:27.820 --> 0:16:30.620 on this in the past few months, though I still 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.100 would have liked better at times. I have a lot 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.180 of respect for Dave Deckard, the author of the Blazers 0:16:36.260 --> 0:16:39.060 Edge piece, because his job seems to rely on the 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.150 Blazers staying here, which he openly points out in his 0:16:42.310 --> 0:16:45.470 own article. I have a lot less respect for legacy 0:16:45.570 --> 0:16:49.489 outlets like the Oregonian, especially Bill Orem and the editorial 0:16:49.550 --> 0:16:53.890 board who repeatedly chastise people for pushing back against this deal. 0:16:54.590 --> 0:16:56.570 Some of what I've seen from the media has been 0:16:56.630 --> 0:17:01.220 more akin to stenography than journalism. The journalist's resource and 0:17:01.300 --> 0:17:05.360 organization aiming to bridge the gap between reporters and academic 0:17:05.460 --> 0:17:09.720 research says in these sports deals journalists, quote, often report 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:14.169 figures from press releases and economic impact statements without questioning 0:17:14.210 --> 0:17:18.100 the assumptions of those analyses, unquote. The worst part of 0:17:18.150 --> 0:17:21.100 all this has been watching people fall for the propaganda 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:25.199 in public comment. Some individuals even brought their children to 0:17:25.260 --> 0:17:28.800 speak at Portland City Council. It's painful to feel like 0:17:28.859 --> 0:17:31.520 I couldn't keep up as a reporter, so for the 0:17:31.580 --> 0:17:33.980 last quarter of this episode, I want to dive into 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.399 all of the just head-spinning madness that has gone down 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.260 in recent months in hopes of providing context that can 0:17:40.300 --> 0:17:43.889 help constituents in other cities fight off these terrible investments. 0:17:44.670 --> 0:17:58.200 But before we do that, here's Samantha. And we're back. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.580 Many of Oregon and Portland's leaders like to wear the 0:18:01.619 --> 0:18:05.940 badge of fiscal responsibility, yet they've done the exact opposite 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:10.080 of what economists suggest. Unfortunately, it just so happens that 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.770 this may be one of the worst arena deals of 0:18:12.850 --> 0:18:16.689 all time. According to data compiled by J.C. Bradbury for 0:18:16.710 --> 0:18:21.680 that webinar... $ 600 million is in the realm of a 60-70% 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.439 increase over the median public contribution for a stadium renovation 0:18:26.540 --> 0:18:31.310 from 2025 onward. Stadiums like the Delta Center in Salt 0:18:31.330 --> 0:18:35.710 Lake City have lower projected renovation costs than Moda, despite 0:18:35.770 --> 0:18:39.430 needing a complete conversion from a basketball arena into an 0:18:39.470 --> 0:18:43.500 arena that can accommodate both basketball and hockey. That is 0:18:43.580 --> 0:18:47.379 a very expensive renovation, and yet they also negotiated a 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:52.650 30-year contract instead of the 20-year contract we have in Portland. Here, 0:18:52.730 --> 0:18:56.490 we're on track for a fully publicly funded renovation because, 0:18:56.650 --> 0:19:00.110 as I highlighted earlier, Tom Dundon said he didn't want 0:19:00.150 --> 0:19:04.200 to put any money in. The Oregon State Legislature capitulated 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:09.020 almost immediately, along with our extremely unpopular governor, shelling out 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:14.070 about $ 365 million dollars not including interest, and the county 0:19:14.130 --> 0:19:18.760 followed suit with approximately another $ 100 million. In this process, 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.260 the Blazers have not actually shared what they want to 0:19:21.460 --> 0:19:25.740 use the $ 600 million for. We're riding blind because they've 0:19:25.780 --> 0:19:30.439 effectively stonewalled us while simultaneously making threats that they'll leave 0:19:30.540 --> 0:19:34.400 if we don't meet their every demand. They've justified this 0:19:34.460 --> 0:19:37.100 by claiming they're worried we'll sue them if they leave, 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.170 leveraging language in the previous lease, which states the primary 0:19:41.230 --> 0:19:46.100 tenant is required to maintain the arena in, quote, first-class condition. 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.750 Let me put that another way. Rip City Management, the 0:19:49.980 --> 0:19:53.440 operator of the Moda Center, asked for essentially a blind 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:59.080 contribution of $ 600 million while simultaneously maintaining that the stadium 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.000 is already in first-class condition because they're afraid of a 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.869 lawsuit due to the contract they signed a few years ago. 0:20:07.430 --> 0:20:10.080 The math does not add up. it kind of sounds 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.020 like the stadium is not actually in first-class condition, or 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:19.080 they're scraping taxpayers for unnecessary renovations. And all they really 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.600 had to do to enforce their agenda was dump a 0:20:21.619 --> 0:20:25.920 couple hundred thousand dollars into lobbying, then refuse to participate 0:20:26.020 --> 0:20:29.770 in good faith negotiations. It really should go without saying, 0:20:29.890 --> 0:20:33.250 your city, state, and county should not throw out hundreds 0:20:33.310 --> 0:20:36.550 of millions of dollars— technically more than a billion when you 0:20:36.590 --> 0:20:40.699 consider debt and other payments— without seeing the actual details 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.619 of the renovation. It's like a fucking loot box, except 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:49.660 we might literally get nothing of substance back. Beyond stonewalling 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.590 and lobbying, the other tactics I'll call creative math and 0:20:53.750 --> 0:20:57.530 finding a fool. Finding a fool is simply grabbing business 0:20:57.590 --> 0:21:01.790 shills who will publicly support your propaganda campaign. In Oregon, 0:21:01.970 --> 0:21:05.709 we're spoiled for choice, and creative math is the coal 0:21:05.770 --> 0:21:10.389 that fuels the flames. For example, The Portland mayor, city councilors, 0:21:10.510 --> 0:21:13.800 and county commissioners have thrown around that the region containing 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:19.040 the Moda Center produces $ 670 million in annual economic activity. 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:24.580 According to the website RipCityNotRipOff, a community effort opposing the 0:21:24.619 --> 0:21:30.619 billionaire handout, about $ 290 million of this is just from players' salaries. 0:21:31.190 --> 0:21:34.130 A lot of this money likely does not stay within Portland. 0:21:34.230 --> 0:21:37.820 This concept is called leakages in that paper by Siegfried 0:21:37.940 --> 0:21:41.260 and Simbalist. When this creative math doesn't do the trick, 0:21:41.340 --> 0:21:44.980 sports teams apparently will often seek out impact analyses from 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.820 consulting firms. And here's a particularly animated clip of Bradbury 0:21:48.900 --> 0:21:49.760 talking about this. 0:21:50.460 --> 0:21:52.109 I want to jump here. I want to talk about 0:21:52.180 --> 0:21:56.929 these economic impact studies. We would tell you they don't exist. 0:21:57.050 --> 0:22:02.159 Economists don't do analyses like that. These things are totally 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.790 made up garbage. And I'm not even going to be 0:22:04.850 --> 0:22:06.710 nice anymore because I'm tired of having to deal with 0:22:06.730 --> 0:22:09.869 this from city to city. That's not how economists do studies. 0:22:09.890 --> 0:22:12.190 They simply just throw numbers in a barrel and roll 0:22:12.270 --> 0:22:15.150 out bigger numbers. And I'll tell you how you know 0:22:15.170 --> 0:22:17.400 this is true because most people don't know. They hear 0:22:17.420 --> 0:22:19.060 me say that's not true. Someone else says, oh, no, 0:22:19.100 --> 0:22:20.360 but the other side says it is true. 0:22:20.940 --> 0:22:23.020 And the way you know it is you say, could you. 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:25.869 Show me some examples where you predicted a number and 0:22:25.900 --> 0:22:29.449 that it came true? And they will never, ever respond 0:22:29.730 --> 0:22:32.070 because they have never once predicted it right. And I've 0:22:32.090 --> 0:22:34.670 been asking for years, can you show me one example? 0:22:34.690 --> 0:22:37.470 And every time I meet with these consultants, I say, 0:22:37.710 --> 0:22:39.950 can you show me an example where you predicted correctly? 0:22:40.270 --> 0:22:41.690 They say, I'll get back to you. And I never 0:22:41.730 --> 0:22:44.790 hear from them ever again. These people are just, they're shills. 0:22:45.190 --> 0:22:47.310 They make a living doing this. And we need to 0:22:47.350 --> 0:22:48.830 start calling them out for doing that. 0:22:49.430 --> 0:22:53.110 In Portland's case, one of the DSA city councilors, Mitch Green, 0:22:53.210 --> 0:22:55.650 said he asked to see the data for the impact 0:22:55.710 --> 0:23:00.219 analysis put together by consulting firm Echo Northwest. According to Green, 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.959 the person who conducted the analysis wanted to give him 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.030 the data, but the Blazers said it was under an NDA. 0:23:06.460 --> 0:23:09.330 So we've kind of gone full circle back to stonewalling. 0:23:09.940 --> 0:23:12.949 If all else fails, teams may rely on astroturfing and 0:23:12.990 --> 0:23:16.250 boldface corruption to get a deal through. In Portland, a 0:23:16.290 --> 0:23:18.990 group known as We Are Rip City started up, claiming 0:23:19.030 --> 0:23:21.810 to be an independent community effort, but they have the 0:23:21.869 --> 0:23:26.320 telltale signs of a corporate astroturfing campaign. They list hundreds 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.619 of coalition supporters on their website, from real estate groups 0:23:29.740 --> 0:23:33.160 to local businesses to unions. But their leadership is made 0:23:33.220 --> 0:23:36.060 up of business executives, and they work with the political 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:40.420 consulting firm March Strategies, who previously contracted with the Blazers 0:23:40.580 --> 0:23:43.960 and is made up of former high-level Oregon government staffers. 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.000 The head of We Are Rip City is Jim Etzel, 0:23:47.060 --> 0:23:50.830 the CEO of Sport Oregon, a non-profit promoting sports in 0:23:50.869 --> 0:23:54.330 the region. But Sport Oregon is funded in part by 0:23:54.390 --> 0:23:57.590 the city of Portland. In effect, the city has paid 0:23:57.630 --> 0:24:01.889 to lobby itself, and it somehow gets even worse. Portland 0:24:01.950 --> 0:24:05.010 is located in Multnomah County, which is currently set up 0:24:05.030 --> 0:24:09.090 to contribute around $ 100 million to the arena themselves. The 0:24:09.130 --> 0:24:12.959 chair of the Multnomah County Commission, Jessica Vega-Peterson, who is 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.840 not running for reelection this fall, hired the county's negotiator 0:24:16.940 --> 0:24:20.880 for the deal. Guess who she hired? The fucking board 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.730 president of Sport Oregon, who also used to work for 0:24:24.750 --> 0:24:28.250 the Blazers. Here's a clip from the county commission meeting 0:24:28.310 --> 0:24:32.190 when this came out. Speaking is Commissioner Megan Moyer. 0:24:33.510 --> 0:24:34.330 Did I miss here? 0:24:34.770 --> 0:24:37.770 He is on the board of Sports Oregon that is 0:24:37.869 --> 0:24:43.040 currently lobbying us on how much we should contribute to 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:43.619 this deal? 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:49.540 We hired a negotiator that's on the board of. 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:53.360 An organization that is lobbying us on this issue? 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:57.980 How is that not a wild conflict of interest? 0:24:59.330 --> 0:25:04.159 Oh, Megan, I feel you. Even after this revelation, Moyer 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.980 was the only one of five on the commission who 0:25:07.020 --> 0:25:12.460 voted against their $ 101 million term sheet proposal. And trust me, 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:15.860 I haven't even touched on all of the craziness surrounding this, 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:18.899 but the underlying goal of the team seems to be 0:25:19.050 --> 0:25:23.490 total control over the conversation. Dundon has pulled off a 0:25:23.609 --> 0:25:28.100 masterclass in this. In reality, it would likely cost him millions, 0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:31.480 if not billions more to relocate the Blazers than to 0:25:31.550 --> 0:25:35.550 just fund the entire renovation himself. There's also debate over 0:25:35.590 --> 0:25:38.430 whether there's even a location for them to move to 0:25:38.570 --> 0:25:41.990 since the NBA has already floated an expansion of teams, 0:25:42.390 --> 0:25:45.070 which rakes in huge amounts of cash for the NBA 0:25:45.230 --> 0:25:50.419 owners versus relocation, an estimated $ 10 billion per new franchise, 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:54.740 according to industry executives and league experts consulted by The Athletic. 0:25:55.730 --> 0:25:58.990 All of our government's negotiating leverage was thrown out like 0:25:59.030 --> 0:26:01.490 a bag of dog shit when the Blazers stepped in 0:26:01.530 --> 0:26:04.520 front of Oregon politicians. I've spent a lot of time 0:26:04.650 --> 0:26:07.820 dunking on Portland City Council, but to be fair to them, 0:26:08.060 --> 0:26:10.800 the state kind of screwed us from the outset. And 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:12.900 I guess that's kind of my message with all this. 0:26:13.340 --> 0:26:15.820 You've really got to try to catch it early. They 0:26:15.859 --> 0:26:18.220 will absolutely try to shove it down your throat, and 0:26:18.260 --> 0:26:21.720 these owners know how to wage a strong propaganda campaign. 0:26:22.930 --> 0:26:24.909 What I've really tried to emphasize in all of my 0:26:24.950 --> 0:26:28.850 reporting is that supporting an arena subsidy, especially of this scale, 0:26:29.170 --> 0:26:31.629 is just out and out choosing the upper class in 0:26:31.670 --> 0:26:35.109 a sport over the people struggling on the streets. We 0:26:35.130 --> 0:26:39.250 have record heat waves, wildfire smoke, people starving, and yet 0:26:39.290 --> 0:26:43.189 we are giving money to a billionaire. The sickening irony 0:26:43.369 --> 0:26:46.090 is not lost on me watching a Boys and Girls 0:26:46.150 --> 0:26:50.010 Club representative testify in favor of a public subsidy and 0:26:50.330 --> 0:26:53.410 Yet when I drive by the Blazer-sponsored Boys and Girls 0:26:53.450 --> 0:26:56.730 Club in North Portland, I see the same woman sleeping 0:26:56.830 --> 0:27:00.130 outside on the sidewalk, her bones starting to protrude from 0:27:00.190 --> 0:27:03.400 her skin. It's not lost on me when the supposed 0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:07.020 liberals on Portland City Council vote to give Tom Dundon 0:27:07.100 --> 0:27:11.240 stronger rent control protections than everyday people in the city. 0:27:11.980 --> 0:27:15.420 Certainly there are things that are worse than another billionaire handout. 0:27:15.859 --> 0:27:18.440 but I don't know that I've ever been more personally 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:21.760 disgusted by the people who claim to represent me, at 0:27:21.820 --> 0:27:24.899 least at the local level. The worst part is that 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:27.590 they pretend to care. They might even think that they 0:27:27.670 --> 0:27:31.070 do actually care, but people have literally been yelling this 0:27:31.130 --> 0:27:34.670 in their faces. It was impossible for them not to hear. 0:27:35.270 --> 0:27:38.060 There truly is no excuse. They've sold us out, and 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:40.460 we'll get a sense of the full damage in December 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.980 when all the negotiations come to an end. I don't 0:27:44.030 --> 0:27:47.350 expect these deals will become any less common across the country. 0:27:47.990 --> 0:27:51.550 As the national economy worsens, I would not be surprised 0:27:51.609 --> 0:27:55.970 if cultivating local economic desperation becomes a center point in 0:27:56.150 --> 0:28:00.230 any NBA owner's playbook. Either way, it happened here. I 0:28:00.869 --> 0:28:03.170 hope it doesn't happen to you. Thanks for listening. 0:28:17.820 --> 0:28:20.869 Hi, James. You know, talking with you goes by really quickly. 0:28:20.940 --> 0:28:23.990 It's almost like no time has passed since we last recorded, 0:28:24.210 --> 0:28:27.010 but it's actually been a whole week. Crazy how time flies. 0:28:28.190 --> 0:28:30.250 Yeah, that's the magic of podcasts. 0:28:32.290 --> 0:28:32.510 Yep. 0:28:33.310 --> 0:28:36.310 In the last episode, we left off by talking about 0:28:36.350 --> 0:28:38.700 how the U.S. took over the Guano Islands and how 0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:42.700 it established U.S. expansion as a mission of resource extraction. 0:28:43.730 --> 0:28:47.330 The Guano Islands were uninhabited, but this episode is all 0:28:47.350 --> 0:28:50.850 about how the U.S. overseas expansion took over people as 0:28:50.910 --> 0:28:55.010 well as land. So to talk about the five inhabited U.S. colonies, 0:28:55.330 --> 0:28:58.620 we need to talk about the Spanish Empire. Throughout the 0:28:58.820 --> 0:29:04.360 19th century, Spain's expansive empire shrunk considerably. Several of their 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:07.500 colonies were either overtaken by the U.S., as in the 0:29:07.540 --> 0:29:10.880 case of Florida or or became independent, as in the 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:16.160 case of Mexico, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, and others. By the 0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:19.480 end of the 19th century, the Spanish Empire was on 0:29:19.530 --> 0:29:23.630 its last legs, but it did have a few remaining colonies, Cuba, 0:29:23.790 --> 0:29:28.490 the Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Guam. Cuba, the Philippines, and 0:29:28.510 --> 0:29:32.050 to a lesser extent, Puerto Rico had been fighting insurrectionary 0:29:32.110 --> 0:29:35.220 wars against Spain for years by the time that 1898 0:29:35.220 --> 0:29:39.710 rolled around. in a final bid to keep some type 0:29:39.790 --> 0:29:44.470 of control over them, Spain gave Cuba and Puerto Rico autonomy, 0:29:44.820 --> 0:29:49.459 meaning that they could form a local government. Meanwhile, Spain 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:52.720 entered into a truce with the Philippines with promises of 0:29:52.780 --> 0:29:58.900 future reforms. However, their insurgencies essentially continued. This wouldn't last long. 0:29:59.240 --> 0:30:02.870 because the U.S. government invaded the Spanish colonies a few 0:30:02.910 --> 0:30:06.830 months later as part of the Spanish-American War. As I've 0:30:06.870 --> 0:30:10.210 talked about, the end of the 19th century was marked 0:30:10.340 --> 0:30:14.720 by the wish to expand America's influence beyond its continental borders. 0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:18.180 It had partially done this with the purchase of Alaska 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.420 as well as the coming annexation of Hawaii, which would 0:30:21.460 --> 0:30:24.610 happen in great part because the U.S. needed a military 0:30:24.730 --> 0:30:28.610 outpost in the mid-Pacific to support operations in the Philippines 0:30:28.750 --> 0:30:33.190 and Guam. However, it still wanted more, and Spain's weakness 0:30:33.370 --> 0:30:37.810 presented the perfect opportunity. So throughout the years before 1898, 0:30:37.790 --> 0:30:42.290 the government had been talking about intervening in Cuba's struggle 0:30:42.350 --> 0:30:46.240 for independence. This was done through yellow journalism, which we 0:30:46.260 --> 0:30:48.360 talked about a little bit in the last episode, but 0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:52.100 essentially the newspapers were talking kind of directly to the 0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:54.240 United States government and being like, we need to spread 0:30:54.700 --> 0:30:57.180 liberty to them and freedom we need to teach them 0:30:57.200 --> 0:30:59.500 uh how it goes and this was of course mixed 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:04.160 with manifest destiny and the monroe doctrine where they wanted 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.930 to quote unquote protect american hegemony uh in the new 0:31:07.990 --> 0:31:08.670 world yeah. 0:31:08.950 --> 0:31:12.970 I'm trying to remember who said this uplive civilize and 0:31:13.010 --> 0:31:15.190 christianize our little brown brothers. 0:31:15.530 --> 0:31:17.610 Um was it mckinley it. 0:31:17.650 --> 0:31:19.390 Seems like it would be but when i when i 0:31:19.670 --> 0:31:22.890 search that specific thing in quotation marks i don't. 0:31:23.090 --> 0:31:27.670 Oh wait so William Howard Taft, the first American governor 0:31:27.710 --> 0:31:31.160 general of the Philippines and later U.S. president, used the phrase, quote, 0:31:31.660 --> 0:31:34.520 little brown brother in cables to McKinley. So maybe it 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:35.620 was there. Okay. 0:31:36.300 --> 0:31:41.470 Yeah, I think I may have like combined two quotations. 0:31:41.870 --> 0:31:44.450 The paternalist racism there is fantastic. I'll drop it in 0:31:44.470 --> 0:31:46.290 later when we're talking about something else. I wasn't sure 0:31:46.310 --> 0:31:48.790 if it was Cuba or which country they were referring to. 0:31:49.270 --> 0:31:51.870 I mean, based on how Puck drew them, we could 0:31:51.890 --> 0:31:53.250 all be the Little Brown Brothers. 0:31:53.330 --> 0:31:56.130 Right, yeah. That is the stereotype they're getting, cool. 0:31:56.210 --> 0:32:02.870 Absolutely. So, speaking of protecting U.S. business interests overseas, in 0:32:02.930 --> 0:32:07.880 January 1898, the United States sent a warship, the USS Maine, 0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:11.660 to Havana Harbor to safeguard American business interests there as 0:32:11.700 --> 0:32:16.440 well as U.S. citizens. However, the USS Maine sank about 0:32:16.460 --> 0:32:20.100 a month later. And while the cause was likely an 0:32:20.180 --> 0:32:25.020 internal fire, according to recent experts, the contemporary opinion in 0:32:25.060 --> 0:32:27.460 the United States blamed it all on Spain. 0:32:28.380 --> 0:32:28.550 Right. 0:32:28.570 --> 0:32:31.750 There was this smattering of yellow journalism that was like, 0:32:31.790 --> 0:32:33.950 you know, they did it. Oh, yeah. The Spain did 0:32:33.990 --> 0:32:36.330 it to us, even though they didn't really have a 0:32:36.350 --> 0:32:38.390 way to prove that. Right. Especially not in 1898. Yeah. 0:32:38.630 --> 0:32:38.890 Yeah. 0:32:39.710 --> 0:32:43.500 And like the whole like going to the bottom of 0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:46.240 the ocean to look at the USS Maine was It's 0:32:46.340 --> 0:32:50.020 a thing. There have been a series of, I guess, 0:32:50.060 --> 0:32:53.980 underwater archaeology is what it is, but expeditions to ascertain 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:57.550 exactly which direction it blew out. Various ones have had 0:32:57.590 --> 0:33:01.470 various conclusions. I think you rightly phrase it here. It 0:33:01.510 --> 0:33:05.470 doesn't matter what caused the explosion. It became a fact 0:33:05.910 --> 0:33:08.690 for the yellow press that the Spanish did. 0:33:09.130 --> 0:33:12.310 Absolutely. And I think it's really interesting that there's still... 0:33:12.590 --> 0:33:15.090 And I understand that why you want to like have 0:33:15.110 --> 0:33:17.750 a genuine conclusion, but the fact that it's still being 0:33:17.830 --> 0:33:22.550 litigated more than, what is it, like 128, 140 years after? Yeah. 0:33:23.070 --> 0:33:26.590 A little bit more, a little bit less, a little 0:33:26.610 --> 0:33:26.950 bit more. 0:33:26.970 --> 0:33:27.670 Yeah. 0:33:27.930 --> 0:33:31.990 Is still, you know, kind of this conception of American 0:33:32.050 --> 0:33:34.830 nation building where it couldn't be that the press got 0:33:34.850 --> 0:33:36.750 it wrong, that the government got it wrong, and that 0:33:36.770 --> 0:33:39.780 it became a fact in the media. And that's why 0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:43.460 the U.S. invaded. Cuba and other Spanish colonies, right? The U.S. 0:33:43.500 --> 0:33:47.280 kind of has to prove itself innocent in this regard. 0:33:47.940 --> 0:33:50.660 So per How to Hide an Empire, the U.S. government 0:33:50.740 --> 0:33:55.250 and the U.S. media wanted to intervene, but anti-imperialists in Congress, 0:33:55.750 --> 0:34:00.430 imagine that, didn't want Cuba to be annexed to the 0:34:00.490 --> 0:34:04.180 United States. So to ostensibly show that they didn't have 0:34:04.260 --> 0:34:08.900 colonial ambitions, Congress passed the Teller Amendment that stated that 0:34:08.940 --> 0:34:13.590 they would not annex Cuba. However, Congress said nothing of 0:34:13.650 --> 0:34:17.299 Spain's other colonies. I should also say that before the U.S. 0:34:17.360 --> 0:34:22.000 officially entered the war that year, Teddy Roosevelt, then Assistant 0:34:22.020 --> 0:34:25.040 Secretary of the Navy, had sent ships to essentially surround 0:34:25.180 --> 0:34:29.330 all of the colonies, not just Cuba. So they were 0:34:29.450 --> 0:34:32.430 kind of pretty clearly preparing for something, you know? 0:34:32.610 --> 0:34:33.390 Yeah, yeah. 0:34:34.130 --> 0:34:35.770 So the U.S. went to war in 1898, and it 0:34:35.830 --> 0:34:40.750 won pretty handily. in large part, and this is the 0:34:40.790 --> 0:34:43.069 stuff that a lot of American history books won't tell you, 0:34:43.310 --> 0:34:46.380 because of the help of the independence movements that had 0:34:46.489 --> 0:34:51.200 already been fighting in these colonies for decades. However, the U.S. 0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:56.100 did as the U.S. does and essentially discarded these independence movements' 0:34:56.300 --> 0:34:59.520 ambitions once they had helped the U.S. win the war, 0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:03.400 showing once again that allies are not necessarily friends. I 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:06.700 feel like this is a lesson that has to be 0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:11.379 taught and learned Throughout American history, right? You know? Yeah, yeah. 0:35:11.500 --> 0:35:13.440 Many, many, many such cases. 0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:13.960 Yep. 0:35:14.780 --> 0:35:17.529 In my opinion, nowhere is this more evident than in 0:35:17.570 --> 0:35:21.770 the Philippines, where the liberation movement declared independence from Spain 0:35:22.430 --> 0:35:27.510 in June of 1898, yet it went unrecognized by the U.S. Instead, 0:35:27.590 --> 0:35:30.790 the U.S. choreographed a mock battle with Spain that eventually 0:35:30.890 --> 0:35:33.810 led to them handing over their colony to the U.S., 0:35:34.050 --> 0:35:36.860 per How to Hide an Empire. The Americans' lack of 0:35:36.900 --> 0:35:41.060 recognition for the Filipino independence movement would eventually lead to 0:35:41.100 --> 0:35:46.060 the Philippine-American War, where the U.S. trampled and devastated the 0:35:46.100 --> 0:35:51.400 Filipino insurgency that wanted independence from one conqueror, Spain originally, 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:56.500 and their newest conqueror, the United States. You know, ostensibly, 0:35:56.540 --> 0:35:59.920 they came in to help these people and then essentially 0:36:00.700 --> 0:36:01.380 massacred them. 0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:01.980 Yeah. 0:36:02.760 --> 0:36:04.360 Little vexillogical aside. 0:36:04.770 --> 0:36:07.549 The star and triangle device that you see on lots 0:36:07.610 --> 0:36:11.540 of flags has its birth in this period. I believe 0:36:11.580 --> 0:36:16.800 it begins with José Martí and the Cuban independence movement. Obviously, 0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:20.140 it characterizes many of these states and their independence movement. 0:36:20.180 --> 0:36:25.040 But for a while there, that flag was the symbol 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:30.210 of fighting against imperial conquest. That's why they incorporated it 0:36:30.250 --> 0:36:34.090 into the Catalan flag. the independent Senella has the triangle 0:36:34.950 --> 0:36:38.250 and then the Catalonia just as a thing without any 0:36:38.270 --> 0:36:41.770 particular political ambition doesn't have the triangle and the star. 0:36:42.210 --> 0:36:45.640 And then you have the red triangle for like socialist independentist, 0:36:45.700 --> 0:36:50.600 but like this blue triangle in flags, like it just 0:36:50.620 --> 0:36:53.620 shows how these actions like reverberated around the world, right? 0:36:53.660 --> 0:36:56.690 Like Spain had been the empire. 0:36:56.710 --> 0:36:56.790 Yeah. 0:36:57.650 --> 0:36:59.529 And like I had this in, in Spanish this week, 0:36:59.570 --> 0:37:02.779 we call it the Anus Horribilis of 1898, right? Like 0:37:02.820 --> 0:37:08.100 the complete collapse of Spain's external possessions. And like for 0:37:08.120 --> 0:37:09.340 a while there, people were like, huh? 0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:11.060 Yeah. Empires can fall. 0:37:11.300 --> 0:37:11.590 Yeah. 0:37:11.700 --> 0:37:17.370 We can defeat them. Unfortunately, a new one took its place. Yeah, exactly. 0:37:17.410 --> 0:37:19.629 Empires can fall if a new empire slides in there 0:37:19.690 --> 0:37:22.890 and like, yes, helps with the fighting and what doesn't 0:37:22.930 --> 0:37:25.660 do all like, like you said, like these people have 0:37:25.680 --> 0:37:29.660 been fighting, like, Marty was dead by the time Roosevelt arrived, 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:32.360 but he had already begun the independence movement. 0:37:32.380 --> 0:37:35.060 Uh, and actually now that you, you mentioned that about 0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:37.940 the triangle, I didn't include it in this, uh, script, right. 0:37:37.960 --> 0:37:40.700 But the Puerto Rican flag is actually directly based on 0:37:40.739 --> 0:37:44.960 the Cuban flag as well. It was made in 1895, 0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:48.280 I believe by, uh, Puerto Rican exiles in New York 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:51.950 who were fighting for independence from Spain. And so they 0:37:52.010 --> 0:37:56.069 essentially adopted this Cuban design, but inverted the colors to 0:37:56.130 --> 0:38:01.589 show kind of Caribbean solidarity and brotherhood. Yeah. And, you know, 0:38:01.630 --> 0:38:02.669 it's been our flag ever since. 0:38:02.850 --> 0:38:03.069 Right. 0:38:03.190 --> 0:38:07.089 And there's a thing about the Puerto Rican flag that 0:38:07.130 --> 0:38:08.700 I'm not going to get into too much, but like. 0:38:09.550 --> 0:38:12.390 based on the kind of color of the blue in 0:38:12.410 --> 0:38:17.080 the flag, uh, is the political status that you support, right? 0:38:17.140 --> 0:38:20.839 That's kind of a, a myth, kind of a myth 0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:23.439 that has essentially become the fact, right? 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:24.000 Right. 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:26.810 No, I love a little hidden flag shit, like the, uh, 0:38:27.390 --> 0:38:29.890 The Flandrians with their flag, like if the lion has 0:38:29.969 --> 0:38:34.569 claws or not, it denotes their status on independence. I think, yeah, 0:38:34.590 --> 0:38:36.600 it doesn't matter if that's what it was designed for. Again, 0:38:36.660 --> 0:38:38.680 it becomes true because everyone knows it to be true 0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:40.180 and they're using it to signal that. 0:38:40.380 --> 0:38:43.740 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So in Puerto Rico, the light blue 0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:47.779 is kind of the independence flag. The medium blue, which 0:38:47.910 --> 0:38:50.550 is kind of the one that most often is used 0:38:50.610 --> 0:38:53.330 depending on the place, is kind of the status quo, 0:38:53.790 --> 0:38:57.680 sometimes independence flag. And then the darker blue, similar to 0:38:57.700 --> 0:38:59.759 the dark blue used in the U.S. flag, is the 0:38:59.820 --> 0:39:03.080 one that stands for statehood. That's cool. You shouldn't necessarily 0:39:03.140 --> 0:39:05.279 take this as fact because, you know, sometimes it's hard 0:39:05.390 --> 0:39:07.570 for people to get their hands on a specific color 0:39:07.610 --> 0:39:10.650 blue Puerto Rican flag. But you can usually tell based 0:39:10.690 --> 0:39:14.350 on the flag that they're waving around what they support. 0:39:14.489 --> 0:39:14.750 Yeah. 0:39:15.090 --> 0:39:18.090 Also, actually, speaking of flags, the flag of the Northern 0:39:18.130 --> 0:39:20.950 Mariana Islands, it goes hard. Have you seen it? 0:39:21.810 --> 0:39:22.270 No, I haven't. 0:39:22.330 --> 0:39:22.700 Oh, let me see. 0:39:22.710 --> 0:39:26.250 The Marshall Islands flag's fucking thick. Yes, I'm actually looking 0:39:26.270 --> 0:39:26.870 at it right now. 0:39:26.950 --> 0:39:27.319 Yeah. 0:39:27.340 --> 0:39:28.800 A Marshallese football shirt. 0:39:29.050 --> 0:39:30.459 Let me send a pic real quick. 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:31.480 Okay, yeah, that's a sick one. 0:39:31.540 --> 0:39:31.759 Yeah. 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:32.300 Yeah, wow. 0:39:32.460 --> 0:39:35.200 There's a lot of very cool flag designs that I 0:39:35.500 --> 0:39:37.240 witnessed while writing this script. 0:39:37.739 --> 0:39:38.080 Oh, wow. 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:38.859 Yeah, that one's great. 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:43.500 So speaking about the Philippine-American War and the American occupation 0:39:43.540 --> 0:39:49.379 of the Philippines post-1898, quoting from Colonial Crucible, The four 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:53.779 years of counter-guerrilla warfare that followed would make accurate intelligence 0:39:53.900 --> 0:39:59.100 an imperative, forcing a marked expansion of the military's limited capacities, 0:39:59.820 --> 0:40:04.299 particularly in the area of operational field intelligence. During the 0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:08.640 campaign in Manila, the U.S. Army, quote, created a modern 0:40:08.700 --> 0:40:13.140 metropolitan police force that applied military intelligence and data management 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:17.819 to the problem of political espionage. developing covert techniques of 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:20.719 surveillance and penetration to fight a dirty war in the 0:40:20.780 --> 0:40:24.860 city's slums and back alleys, end quote. And according to 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:29.260 How to Hide an Empire, American GIs tortured Filipino guerrillas 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:34.380 by administering the quote-unquote water cure, a torture method similar 0:40:34.440 --> 0:40:39.440 to the waterboarding which has happened in Vietnam and Afghanistan, right? 0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:41.890 And in Cuba, in the little US base that we 0:40:41.910 --> 0:40:42.430 have there. 0:40:42.489 --> 0:40:45.270 As well, right. And you kind of see this as 0:40:45.390 --> 0:40:48.660 part of the imperial feedback or the imperial boomerang that 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:53.480 colonization of the U.S. 's colonies has sent back into 0:40:53.580 --> 0:40:57.759 the United States and how it's reverberated in future imperialist 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:03.660 or colonialist conquest, right? This one torture method, which is 0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:10.230 very similar actually to waterboarding, has reverberated throughout American counterinsurgency history. 0:41:10.860 --> 0:41:13.580 So here you can see how the management of empire 0:41:13.660 --> 0:41:17.780 has instructed the U.S. 's military apparatus in quelling nationalist 0:41:17.820 --> 0:41:22.210 movements the world over. And this is obviously something that's 0:41:22.290 --> 0:41:25.969 come back towards the American metropole, particularly the kind of 0:41:26.070 --> 0:41:33.100 counterinsurgency used in policing American military occupations, right? This is 0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:37.759 very common because, quoting from Colonial Crucible, colonial regimes only 0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:41.960 had finite resources for costly social controls and generally chose 0:41:42.020 --> 0:41:46.310 to apply them to policing, prisons, and law enforcement. And 0:41:46.350 --> 0:41:51.109 kind of the colonial policing apparatus has reverberated throughout every 0:41:51.170 --> 0:41:56.350 single empire's history, right? I'm thinking of Smedley Butler taking 0:41:56.430 --> 0:41:59.580 the policing techniques he learned in Haiti back to Philadelphia 0:41:59.620 --> 0:42:03.560 with him. The filipino police kind of setting the scene 0:42:03.660 --> 0:42:05.880 for some of the policing that would happen in the 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:09.360 united states this is like very much a thing that 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:12.430 happens the world over or um god why am i 0:42:12.450 --> 0:42:17.210 blanking george orwell in uh india the the policing that 0:42:17.250 --> 0:42:19.490 he did in burma sorry. 0:42:19.770 --> 0:42:21.710 Yeah which was part of india at the time in 0:42:21.730 --> 0:42:23.569 the british conception. 0:42:23.630 --> 0:42:26.120 So orwell being a policeman there and kind of seeing 0:42:26.200 --> 0:42:29.860 how it impacted back home and we see this the 0:42:29.900 --> 0:42:33.840 world over, right? In terms of militarization, the military exports 0:42:33.900 --> 0:42:37.450 that the U.S. has taken to many, many, many countries, 0:42:37.950 --> 0:42:41.950 the world over is now reverberating back into U.S. streets. 0:42:43.350 --> 0:42:46.670 And actually, in terms of ICE and the kind of 0:42:46.750 --> 0:42:51.180 paramilitary campaign of terror that they're doing, we're seeing the 0:42:51.219 --> 0:42:55.080 people that the U.S. displaced in other places kind of 0:42:55.140 --> 0:42:58.680 fleeing there, trying to get a safe haven in the U.S. 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:03.270 and The paramilitary tactics that were used against their parents, grandparents, 0:43:03.330 --> 0:43:07.230 or great-grandparents now being used on them, right? So the 0:43:07.310 --> 0:43:11.420 cycle of abuse and violence doesn't really end, sadly. 0:43:11.739 --> 0:43:12.120 Yeah. 0:43:12.980 --> 0:43:16.060 So you know what won't invest resources in policing, prisons, 0:43:16.140 --> 0:43:18.379 and law enforcement? These advertisers. 0:43:19.800 --> 0:43:20.980 We can't say that for sure. 0:43:21.780 --> 0:43:22.020 Right. 0:43:22.300 --> 0:43:24.279 Might be the Washington State Highway Patrol again. 0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:39.580 And we're back. Meanwhile, in Cuba, as I mentioned previously, 0:43:39.660 --> 0:43:42.719 anti-imperialists in Congress passed a law that meant the U.S. 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.980 couldn't annex it. However, that didn't mean there couldn't be 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:53.260 a military occupation, which lasted until 1902 when Cuba declared independence. However, 0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:57.400 the Platt Amendment stipulated that the U.S. could intervene in 0:43:57.460 --> 0:44:01.719 Cuban affairs, even invade if they wanted to. It also 0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:06.050 meant that the U.S. could establish a permanent naval base there, 0:44:06.130 --> 0:44:10.069 which is now and then called Guantanamo Bay. Actually, that 0:44:10.090 --> 0:44:14.110 might be the one piece of American overseas empire that 0:44:14.130 --> 0:44:17.450 I think is very present in the American consciousness. It's 0:44:17.670 --> 0:44:21.010 much more so than Puerto Rico or Guam or whatever. 0:44:21.030 --> 0:44:24.360 Yeah, the fact that it's like a cutout from Cuba, 0:44:24.390 --> 0:44:28.020 this country, that the whole thing of this half of 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:29.940 the Trump administration is hating Cuba. 0:44:30.750 --> 0:44:32.509 And be like, oh, psych, we also own a little 0:44:32.530 --> 0:44:33.270 bit of that island. 0:44:33.570 --> 0:44:37.150 Right, exactly. And own it for more than a century 0:44:37.630 --> 0:44:40.850 at this point as kind of a bastion of continued 0:44:40.950 --> 0:44:44.110 control on it, right? Because they couldn't annex it completely. 0:44:44.150 --> 0:44:46.029 But if you just take a little small piece of 0:44:46.070 --> 0:44:49.839 it and then use it for a lot of evil things, 0:44:50.380 --> 0:44:50.660 you know. 0:44:51.050 --> 0:44:53.939 Yeah, to your point about it affecting the metropole, like 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:56.940 so much of the worst parts of US history run 0:44:56.960 --> 0:45:00.180 through that little naval enclave there. 0:45:00.650 --> 0:45:01.250 Absolutely. 0:45:01.550 --> 0:45:03.549 Like the worst parts of the war on terror. We're 0:45:03.590 --> 0:45:07.770 now using it for a deportation camp, right? Like it's 0:45:07.850 --> 0:45:09.730 where we do our deniable crimes. 0:45:10.510 --> 0:45:14.500 Yeah, absolutely. And that actually ties very much into a 0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:17.020 thing that I'll give a little preview on, which is 0:45:17.219 --> 0:45:21.840 why the U.S. Constitution doesn't really apply in the colonies. 0:45:23.150 --> 0:45:25.549 So the U.S. would go on to occupy Cuba two 0:45:25.590 --> 0:45:30.489 more times, from 1906 to 1909, and once more from 0:45:30.489 --> 0:45:35.120 1917 to 1922. Even after the U.S. occupation ended, the U.S. 0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:37.180 would go on to have a very good relationship with 0:45:37.200 --> 0:45:41.400 the Batista dictatorship because of American business interests in the 0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:46.750 Cuban archipelago. However, the Cuban Revolution of 1953 would eventually 0:45:46.790 --> 0:45:49.850 mark the end of this relationship with the U.S. oscillating 0:45:49.910 --> 0:45:53.590 between wanting to outright take over or destroy Cuba again, 0:45:53.610 --> 0:45:56.450 as the current Trump administration wants to do, or to 0:45:56.489 --> 0:46:00.069 just being kind of very critically wary of the government, right? 0:46:00.110 --> 0:46:03.200 There was a point in recent American history where tensions 0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:06.080 between the two countries, and I say tensions, but it's 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:10.840 really an extremely lopsided situation. kind of hate from the U.S. 0:46:10.840 --> 0:46:13.140 's part. There was a time in recent memory where 0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:16.760 tensions were kind of mellowing out. Then you could visit 0:46:16.820 --> 0:46:22.060 Cuba without there being a major international incident under Obama. 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:26.380 And similar to the Philippines, Cuba became an important part 0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:30.089 of how the U.S. would portray itself overseas. There were 0:46:30.110 --> 0:46:32.390 several things that happened in Cuba and have happened in 0:46:32.410 --> 0:46:35.750 Cuba that have defined the colonial empire, right? Like Guantanamo Bay, 0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:38.910 But this time, I don't want it to be something 0:46:39.190 --> 0:46:45.190 so dark. So, per Colonial Crucible, American forces occupying Cuba 0:46:45.270 --> 0:46:48.630 worked ceaselessly to control the dreaded yellow fever in Havana 0:46:48.730 --> 0:46:50.960 and the rest of the island. But like the public 0:46:50.980 --> 0:46:55.120 health campaigns of other colonial powers, these efforts were not 0:46:55.180 --> 0:46:58.739 an expression of medical beneficence. As elsewhere, public health in 0:46:58.780 --> 0:47:02.110 Cuba served the needs of the colonizer rather than the colonized. 0:47:02.630 --> 0:47:06.390 to protect commerce, maintain the labor force, safeguard troops, and 0:47:06.469 --> 0:47:11.919 colonial administrations, and justify colonial rule. The eradication of yellow 0:47:11.940 --> 0:47:15.580 fever in Cuba, an unprecedented success of colonial public health, 0:47:15.980 --> 0:47:18.860 achieved for the United States nearly all of these goals. 0:47:19.380 --> 0:47:23.480 American public health efforts in Cuba were a colonial enterprise 0:47:23.520 --> 0:47:27.120 that provided economic and political benefits to important supporters of 0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:31.520 the American imperial state, demonstrated that American imperialism could succeed 0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:36.340 where European powers had failed and so inspired further American 0:47:36.400 --> 0:47:40.520 colonial expansion in the region. So here you can kind 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:43.400 of see how even if the U.S. is doing something 0:47:43.460 --> 0:47:47.640 like patently good, like eliminating yellow fever in the Cuban archipelago, 0:47:48.140 --> 0:47:51.650 it's still because they want to further control Cuba and 0:47:51.710 --> 0:47:57.930 its neighboring islands. So a similar hookworm eradication campaign took 0:47:57.969 --> 0:48:00.750 place in Puerto Rico, which remains a U.S. colony to 0:48:00.790 --> 0:48:04.960 this day. this hookworm eradication campaign would go on to 0:48:05.020 --> 0:48:09.239 inform a similar campaign throughout the American South. However, as 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:11.930 noted by How to Hide an Empire, the Southern campaign 0:48:12.110 --> 0:48:16.550 largely succeeded, in part because of a million-dollar philanthropic donation 0:48:16.610 --> 0:48:20.910 from John D. Rockefeller. Meanwhile, a victim of colonial neglect, 0:48:21.070 --> 0:48:25.720 the Puerto Rico Project received only $ 5, 000, and no matter 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:29.680 how many hookworm pills Puerto Ricans took, they became reinfected 0:48:29.739 --> 0:48:33.060 again and again, because the government did not care to 0:48:33.219 --> 0:48:37.859 uplift them from poverty, would have significantly reduced hookworm rates. 0:48:38.380 --> 0:48:44.230 In comparison, the US South essentially received this mega donation, 0:48:44.570 --> 0:48:47.690 which helped them uplift them, as well as investing in 0:48:47.750 --> 0:48:50.270 school and several other programs that made it so this 0:48:50.310 --> 0:48:55.730 hookworm infection wasn't so disastrous for the region. However, Puerto 0:48:55.750 --> 0:48:58.890 Rico being a colony, they were like, you know, we 0:48:58.930 --> 0:49:02.350 don't need to do as much So here we see 0:49:02.390 --> 0:49:05.110 how colonial health campaigns can be used to benefit the 0:49:05.150 --> 0:49:09.299 metropole at the expense of the colonies. Yes, Cubans and 0:49:09.380 --> 0:49:12.660 Puerto Ricans got help for their illnesses. But in one case, 0:49:12.800 --> 0:49:16.049 it was used to justify further colonization. And in the other, 0:49:16.110 --> 0:49:18.589 they were used essentially as guinea pigs to help white 0:49:18.630 --> 0:49:22.170 people of the American South. Puerto Rico was under military 0:49:22.250 --> 0:49:26.800 rule from 1898 to 1900, and was eventually placed under 0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:31.660 civil administration in 1900 under the Foraker Act. Puerto Ricans 0:49:31.960 --> 0:49:35.920 would become American citizens 17 years later, just as the U.S. 0:49:35.960 --> 0:49:39.500 was entering World War I. It's commonly stated as a 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:43.720 myth that we were made citizens exclusively to become soldiers. 0:49:43.739 --> 0:49:46.840 And this is like half right. The thinking by the U.S. 0:49:46.890 --> 0:49:50.350 government was that citizenship would convince Puerto Ricans to fight 0:49:50.430 --> 0:49:54.350 any foreign aggressors that could possibly attack the archipelago, as 0:49:54.410 --> 0:49:58.490 well as help the U.S. military project a military force 0:49:58.670 --> 0:50:01.430 into the Caribbean. I should say that this is according 0:50:01.469 --> 0:50:04.210 to the book Soldiers of the Nation by Harry Frankie Rivera. 0:50:04.700 --> 0:50:07.090 And actually, Puerto Rico is called the Gibraltar of the 0:50:07.130 --> 0:50:10.030 Caribbean in World War II because of its coastal defenses. 0:50:10.690 --> 0:50:10.960 Got it. 0:50:11.070 --> 0:50:11.310 Yeah. 0:50:12.010 --> 0:50:15.529 However, it wouldn't be until 1949 that we were able 0:50:15.570 --> 0:50:18.930 to choose our own governor and we became, quote, Estado 0:50:18.950 --> 0:50:23.330 Libre Asociado or Commonwealth in 1952. I'm going to spare 0:50:23.350 --> 0:50:27.489 the political conjecture. Truthfully, Estado Libre Asociado is kind of 0:50:27.550 --> 0:50:33.029 a nonsense statement. It's essentially just colony with a fancier name, right? 0:50:33.050 --> 0:50:37.150 There's not really any difference between Puerto Rico and Guam 0:50:37.630 --> 0:50:40.730 in this sense, right? Puerto Rico is a commonwealth, same 0:50:40.750 --> 0:50:44.390 as the Northern Mariana Islands, actually. But there's really no 0:50:44.590 --> 0:50:48.880 difference legally from other colonies by being called an Estado 0:50:48.900 --> 0:50:54.220 Libre Asociado. And speaking of political repression by the U.S. government, 0:50:54.820 --> 0:50:57.940 the Puerto Rican independence movement has waxed and waned over 0:50:57.960 --> 0:51:00.939 the years. All the while, the movement has faced pretty 0:51:00.980 --> 0:51:05.460 brutal political repression throughout all that time, including being bombed 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:09.489 by the Air Force during the 1950 Hayuya uprising, one 0:51:09.510 --> 0:51:11.650 of the few times that the U.S. has bombed its 0:51:11.750 --> 0:51:15.690 own citizens, as well as the longest domestic surveillance program 0:51:15.730 --> 0:51:19.230 in U.S. history that spanned roughly six decades and tracked 0:51:19.270 --> 0:51:23.180 somewhere over 100,000 people, according to the book Las Carpetas 0:51:23.680 --> 0:51:28.700 by Ramón Bosque Pérez and José Javier Colón Morera. Here, 0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:32.070 like the Philippines, we see how the U.S. 's imperial 0:51:32.140 --> 0:51:35.170 quelling of nationalist movements would go on to boomerang back 0:51:35.330 --> 0:51:39.290 to the metropole. Las Carpetas, as the program is colloquially known, 0:51:39.670 --> 0:51:43.069 preceded COINTELPRO, and its DNA can be found throughout the 0:51:43.110 --> 0:51:46.110 domestic surveillance programs that we know of, and surely those 0:51:46.130 --> 0:51:48.370 that we don't. And I want to stop here to 0:51:49.130 --> 0:51:52.230 speak a little of the Puerto Rican status debate, because 0:51:52.250 --> 0:51:53.860 I've seen a lot of people who don't know anything 0:51:53.890 --> 0:51:59.580 about it acting like experts on twitter.com over the years. Shocking. 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:04.580 Puerto Rico has performed several referendums over the decades where 0:52:04.620 --> 0:52:07.800 you vote on the status. And over the last decade, 0:52:07.940 --> 0:52:11.060 a state has won three of them. Truth be told, 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:14.080 these referendums don't actually mean that much in terms of 0:52:14.180 --> 0:52:18.010 measuring public support because they've been boycotted and many people 0:52:18.070 --> 0:52:19.739 view them in the same way that they would a 0:52:19.780 --> 0:52:24.230 public poll. Also, it's non-binding, which means even if whatever 0:52:24.350 --> 0:52:28.340 option wins, nothing's going to happen. Congress is the only 0:52:28.660 --> 0:52:31.220 one that could approve statehood for Puerto Rico, no matter 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:35.219 how much Puerto Ricans asked for it. Even so, in 0:52:35.260 --> 0:52:39.410 the last referendum during the 2024 election, some form of independence, 0:52:39.590 --> 0:52:45.150 meaning either full independence or compact or free association, received 41% support, 0:52:45.250 --> 0:52:49.730 while statehood received 59%. So, while statehood is ostensibly the 0:52:49.790 --> 0:52:52.609 majority choice, it's not as clear-cut as many people would 0:52:52.650 --> 0:52:53.589 want you to believe. 0:52:54.400 --> 0:52:54.600 Yeah. Yeah. 0:52:54.620 --> 0:52:54.759 Yeah. 0:53:12.700 --> 0:53:14.239 And now I'm sorry to say that I'm going to 0:53:14.300 --> 0:53:16.720 summarize a lot of the history of Guam, American Samoa, 0:53:16.739 --> 0:53:19.319 the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the Northern Mariana Islands to 0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:22.279 get to how the Constitution doesn't fully apply there. But 0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:23.950 I still want people to know some of the basic 0:53:24.010 --> 0:53:28.730 facts about the other colonies. Guam was under military rule 0:53:28.830 --> 0:53:32.049 for 47 years, first by the U.S., then Japan for 0:53:32.130 --> 0:53:34.870 four years during World War II, and again by the U.S. 0:53:34.950 --> 0:53:38.570 until 1950, when Truman signed the Organic Act of Guam, 0:53:39.050 --> 0:53:43.270 giving them a civilian administration and a civilian court. Meanwhile, 0:53:43.370 --> 0:53:47.390 the U.S. annexed American Samoa in 1900 when local chiefs 0:53:47.430 --> 0:53:50.569 ceded Tutuila, the largest island to the U.S. This was 0:53:50.650 --> 0:53:54.950 followed by Manoa in 1904 and Swains Island in 1905, 0:53:54.950 --> 0:53:59.000 although it's also claimed by Tokelau, a colony of New Zealand. 0:53:59.860 --> 0:54:02.920 As I said during the last episode, American Samoans are 0:54:03.000 --> 0:54:06.219 non-citizen nationals, and they have to naturalize if they want 0:54:06.260 --> 0:54:10.250 to become American citizens. Per the ACLU, being a non-citizen 0:54:10.310 --> 0:54:13.890 national means that they can't be firefighters, paramedics, and public 0:54:13.910 --> 0:54:18.250 school teachers. The U.S. Virgin Islands were bought from Denmark 0:54:18.430 --> 0:54:22.529 for $ 25 million in 1917. The U.S. had been negotiating 0:54:22.570 --> 0:54:26.030 this in one way or another since 1865, and like 0:54:26.070 --> 0:54:29.980 Puerto Rico, USVI is an important strategic foothold in the 0:54:30.020 --> 0:54:34.580 Caribbean for military purposes. Finally, the Northern Mariana Islands have 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:39.640 oscillated rulers between several empires. However, after World War II, 0:54:39.700 --> 0:54:44.890 they became United Nations Trust Territories under American administration. It 0:54:44.930 --> 0:54:49.810 became a colony of the U.S. in 1986. The Marshall Islands, Micronesia, 0:54:50.010 --> 0:54:52.750 and Palau were also part of this trust, but they 0:54:52.790 --> 0:54:56.020 chose to enter into compacts of free association instead of 0:54:56.080 --> 0:54:59.660 becoming colonies. There is a common trait among all of 0:54:59.700 --> 0:55:03.140 these colonies that I've mentioned throughout, which is being key 0:55:03.260 --> 0:55:06.340 to military force projection by the United States in the 0:55:06.380 --> 0:55:09.810 Caribbean and the Pacific. Bases in each of these colonies 0:55:09.930 --> 0:55:13.550 are crucial to the U.S. military's logistical ability to deploy 0:55:13.630 --> 0:55:17.110 throughout the world. Recently, a long dormant naval base in 0:55:17.150 --> 0:55:20.390 Puerto Rico, Roosevelt Roads, was brought back to life as 0:55:20.450 --> 0:55:23.910 part of the Trump administration's attacks on Venezuela and the 0:55:23.950 --> 0:55:26.990 boat strikes throughout the Caribbean, as well as including the Pacific. 0:55:27.390 --> 0:55:29.930 The planes that are doing the boat strikes aren't leaving 0:55:30.030 --> 0:55:33.779 from Puerto Rico to do in the Pacific, obviously. Another 0:55:33.840 --> 0:55:36.200 common trait that all of these colonies share is that 0:55:36.239 --> 0:55:39.770 stuff is super expensive. in part because of the Jones Act, 0:55:39.950 --> 0:55:43.810 a 1920 shipping law that mandates that any goods traveling 0:55:43.850 --> 0:55:48.149 between two U.S. ports has to move on a U.S.-flagged, owned, 0:55:48.290 --> 0:55:51.640 and crewed ship. People might be most familiar with this 0:55:51.719 --> 0:55:54.080 law based on the amount of times a sitting U.S. 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:57.680 president has put it on pause. In fact, Trump extended 0:55:57.920 --> 0:56:00.880 the Jones Act waiver for another 90 days just a 0:56:00.940 --> 0:56:05.000 few days ago to assuage pressures from oil price increases. 0:56:06.230 --> 0:56:09.850 A 2024 working paper by two Purdue University economists with 0:56:09.890 --> 0:56:12.339 backing of the World Bank found that the Jones Act 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:17.740 imposes an annual welfare burden on Puerto Rico of $ 1. 4 billion. 0:56:18.820 --> 0:56:22.200 Because foreign-flagged commerce ships can't stop in Puerto Rico then 0:56:22.239 --> 0:56:24.840 go on to Florida, for example, they have to go 0:56:24.880 --> 0:56:27.420 to Florida first, have all their stuff moved onto a 0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:30.810 U.S.-flagged ship, then it comes here. And all of this 0:56:30.870 --> 0:56:34.250 cost is passed on to the consumers. The Jones Act 0:56:34.410 --> 0:56:36.550 also affects Hawaii and Alaska. 0:56:36.570 --> 0:56:40.830 Yeah, I think people who have not experienced this will 0:56:40.870 --> 0:56:46.089 not realize the profound nature to which this, and just 0:56:46.110 --> 0:56:50.180 being so far from the colonial core, impacts everyday life. 0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:55.259 The way you eat is fundamentally determined. by the fact 0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:57.419 that this shit is so expensive. I know this gets 0:56:57.440 --> 0:57:01.450 particularly the case in interior Alaska, where just getting there 0:57:01.489 --> 0:57:03.630 is in and of itself expensive, but this has a 0:57:03.710 --> 0:57:04.990 big role to play. 0:57:05.690 --> 0:57:08.029 Absolutely. Actually, this isn't the script, but in terms of 0:57:08.810 --> 0:57:14.089 Puerto Rico, part of the American industrialization of the archipelago, 0:57:14.410 --> 0:57:17.130 as well as the way that it was backed up 0:57:17.310 --> 0:57:20.070 by the local government, meant that we switched from a 0:57:20.290 --> 0:57:23.110 kind of agricultural society to an industrial one. And we 0:57:23.150 --> 0:57:25.510 went from growing a ton of our own food to 0:57:25.630 --> 0:57:29.370 only growing about between 10% to 20% of it, which 0:57:29.530 --> 0:57:32.630 back then was very good because there was a boom 0:57:32.650 --> 0:57:35.890 time for the Puerto Rican economy. But kind of now, 0:57:36.630 --> 0:57:39.650 it means that everything is incredibly expensive because it has 0:57:39.670 --> 0:57:42.270 to come from all over the world, get moved onto 0:57:42.290 --> 0:57:46.720 a US flagship in the contiguous 48 states, then come 0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:48.320 back here. Right. 0:57:48.450 --> 0:57:52.040 It places you not only at a place where you're 0:57:52.600 --> 0:57:56.600 already paying more, but also at the whim of shipping costs, 0:57:56.760 --> 0:58:00.700 oil prices, these things that we're all seeing go up 0:58:00.760 --> 0:58:01.140 right now. 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:04.630 Absolutely. And part of those costs have been assuaged recently 0:58:04.690 --> 0:58:07.970 because of the waivers. But there is a very big 0:58:08.050 --> 0:58:11.250 contingent of people in Puerto Rico who are really dreading 0:58:11.330 --> 0:58:15.120 the moment those waivers stop because things are going to 0:58:15.160 --> 0:58:18.960 get really expensive again. And I mean, they're still expensive, 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:21.320 but they're going to get even more expensive, right? 0:58:21.340 --> 0:58:21.820 Yeah. 0:58:22.720 --> 0:58:26.020 Yeah. So at this point, if you've been listening closely, 0:58:26.440 --> 0:58:28.760 you'll notice that there's a pretty glaring omission in what 0:58:28.780 --> 0:58:33.240 I've covered so far. Alaska and Hawaii, the only overseas U.S. 0:58:33.280 --> 0:58:37.960 territories to become states, have gone almost completely unmentioned. I 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:41.720 purposefully left them out because they overcomplicated the whole history 0:58:41.780 --> 0:58:43.280 and it was easier to put them at the end 0:58:43.300 --> 0:58:46.890 than in the middle. So Alaska was bought from Imperial 0:58:46.950 --> 0:58:52.400 Russia in 1856 for $ 7. 2 million, and Hawaii was annexed 0:58:52.500 --> 0:58:55.980 in 1898 after U.S. businessmen and Marines did a bloodless 0:58:56.040 --> 0:58:59.960 coup against the Kingdom of Hawaii and its then-queen. They 0:59:00.020 --> 0:59:03.110 eventually became the 49th and 50th state in the middle 0:59:03.170 --> 0:59:06.150 of the 20th century, and the kind of annexation of 0:59:06.210 --> 0:59:08.730 Alaska and Hawaii is the thread that's been running throughout 0:59:08.790 --> 0:59:09.970 these two podcast episodes. 0:59:10.340 --> 0:59:10.540 Right? 0:59:11.340 --> 0:59:16.080 In terms of Alaska, it's resource extraction. By buying Alaska, 0:59:16.100 --> 0:59:20.900 they got access to miles and miles of pristine nature 0:59:20.980 --> 0:59:24.820 that had in it gold, fur, and oil. In Hawaii, 0:59:24.900 --> 0:59:29.300 they received a strategic foothold in the Pacific, which has 0:59:29.400 --> 0:59:34.080 become extremely important over the years, particularly at the time 0:59:34.120 --> 0:59:38.600 that it was annexed during the Spanish-American War, where the U.S. 0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:42.060 military had to use it as a launchpad, essentially, for 0:59:42.220 --> 0:59:45.400 its war in the Philippines and Guam. According to How 0:59:45.440 --> 0:59:48.110 to Hide an Empire and an article in The Conversation 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:51.350 titled Why Russia Gave Up Alaska, America's Gateway to the 0:59:51.470 --> 0:59:55.610 Arctic by William L. Igiagruk Hensley, The purchase of Alaska 0:59:55.670 --> 0:59:59.750 brought with it a cornucopia of natural resources, including gold, fur, 0:59:59.850 --> 1:00:02.720 and oil, that could be mined from this new territory 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:06.700 as well as nearly 400 million pristine acres of new 1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:09.940 land with a comparably small addition to the U.S. 's 1:00:10.020 --> 1:00:14.260 majority white racial calculus. And this is a very important thing. 1:00:14.540 --> 1:00:18.960 The United States has never really added territories at this 1:00:19.020 --> 1:00:21.840 point that would significantly throw off the amount of white 1:00:21.920 --> 1:00:25.220 Anglo-Saxon people that inherit it, right? And I'm thinking of 1:00:25.760 --> 1:00:30.700 choosing to incorporate Oklahoma instead of the indigenous state of 1:00:30.760 --> 1:00:35.050 Sequoia because of how it would affect the amount of 1:00:35.110 --> 1:00:36.530 white people in the United States. 1:00:37.450 --> 1:00:40.090 Yeah, and the way that it would affect the representation 1:00:40.130 --> 1:00:43.710 in Congress too, right? Like specifically partitioning states off in 1:00:43.770 --> 1:00:46.720 such a way that they don't tend to give people 1:00:46.740 --> 1:00:48.160 who are not white representation. 1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:53.940 Yeah, absolutely. Meanwhile, Hawaii, with a much more multicultural population, 1:00:54.040 --> 1:00:56.600 was a four-year issue. But the U.S. decided to make 1:00:56.640 --> 1:00:59.840 them a state anyway because it helped them reach Pacific 1:00:59.900 --> 1:01:03.800 markets and because it provided an important geopolitical strategic interest 1:01:03.840 --> 1:01:07.410 during the Cold War. Hawaii was made into a state 1:01:07.530 --> 1:01:10.730 because of the Spanish-American War, but it was annexed, not 1:01:10.770 --> 1:01:13.830 made into a state. A declaratory note there. Right, yeah. 1:01:14.650 --> 1:01:17.330 I'm severely flattening history here, but that's the gist of 1:01:17.390 --> 1:01:21.350 how they became states. And, dear listener, you might be asking, 1:01:21.750 --> 1:01:24.310 what makes them different from Puerto Rico and the rest 1:01:24.330 --> 1:01:27.790 of the colonies? The key difference is that Alaska and 1:01:27.830 --> 1:01:33.680 Hawaii were both, quote-unquote, incorporated territories. Meanwhile, Puerto Rico, Guam, 1:01:33.720 --> 1:01:36.800 the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American 1:01:36.840 --> 1:01:42.820 Samoa are quote-unquote unincorporated territories. If that distinction means nothing 1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:45.890 to you and it sounds kind of racist, welcome to 1:01:45.910 --> 1:02:00.530 the club. This distinction was created in 1901 by a 1:02:00.630 --> 1:02:05.010 series of racist Supreme Court decisions called the Insular Cases. 1:02:06.030 --> 1:02:09.350 A critical part of the Insular Cases created the doctrine 1:02:09.430 --> 1:02:13.970 of incorporation that governs non-contiguous territories, as well as created 1:02:14.030 --> 1:02:19.960 the idea of incorporation versus unincorporation, creating the legal framework 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:22.960 saying that the Constitution does not fully apply to the 1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:27.320 unincorporated territories. Downs v. Bidwell was the most important case 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:31.040 here because it created the term unincorporated territory to describe 1:02:31.100 --> 1:02:34.280 Puerto Rico's legal status shortly after it had been acquired. 1:02:34.840 --> 1:02:38.460 The case created the distinction that some territories were unincorporated 1:02:38.600 --> 1:02:42.710 and others were incorporated, like Alaska and Hawaii, which were 1:02:42.770 --> 1:02:47.170 integral parts of the U.S. and thus bound for statehood. However, 1:02:47.190 --> 1:02:51.390 unincorporated territories like Puerto Rico and Guam were not on 1:02:51.430 --> 1:02:54.890 that path to statehood, and they were a pertinent to 1:02:54.910 --> 1:02:58.090 the United States, the same word the US used for 1:02:58.110 --> 1:03:01.650 the islands it claimed under the Guano Islands Act. We were, 1:03:01.670 --> 1:03:05.530 and this is a quote, foreign in a domestic sense. 1:03:06.450 --> 1:03:09.230 What an amazing legal fucking term to come up with. 1:03:09.570 --> 1:03:09.910 Right? 1:03:10.630 --> 1:03:10.890 Yeah. 1:03:11.350 --> 1:03:11.630 Great. 1:03:11.650 --> 1:03:14.710 I don't know. It's like very incredible because all of 1:03:14.770 --> 1:03:17.530 this is like a legal fiction applied. 1:03:17.550 --> 1:03:18.410 Right. 1:03:18.830 --> 1:03:20.340 Like, Literally, right? 1:03:20.440 --> 1:03:22.680 Yeah, it's a bunch of people dancing around saying long 1:03:22.700 --> 1:03:24.260 words to be like, totally not a colony, dude. 1:03:24.300 --> 1:03:26.730 No, absolutely not. No way. Totally different, bro. I don't 1:03:26.750 --> 1:03:27.430 know what you're talking about. 1:03:27.450 --> 1:03:30.670 The US would never have colonies. They're just foreign in 1:03:30.750 --> 1:03:34.910 a domestic sense. Another case, the Lima v. Bidwell, was 1:03:34.950 --> 1:03:37.660 decided on the exact same day. It explained that Puerto 1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:41.260 Rico belonged to the US. I'm simplifying the explanation here, 1:03:41.360 --> 1:03:43.140 but when you mix it with Downs and other cases 1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:45.160 over the years, you get the phrase that we know 1:03:45.260 --> 1:03:49.560 all too well. Owned, but not part of. To drive 1:03:49.580 --> 1:03:52.140 the point home, I want to paraphrase from Amy Kaplan's 1:03:52.180 --> 1:03:55.580 The Anarchy of Empire. The insular cases put Puerto Rico 1:03:55.620 --> 1:03:58.520 and other colonies in a liminal space, both inside and 1:03:58.600 --> 1:04:02.320 outside of the boundaries of the Constitution, relegating the people 1:04:02.360 --> 1:04:05.220 who live there to a permanent state of limbo, neither 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:09.690 fully citizens nor completely foreign. The insular cases cemented the 1:04:09.750 --> 1:04:12.970 imperial mode of governance so thoroughly that many Americans would 1:04:13.010 --> 1:04:15.570 not even consider their home country to be an empire. 1:04:16.960 --> 1:04:19.720 These colonies remain in limbo to this day, likely never 1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:21.960 going to be made states, yet equally as likely to 1:04:22.000 --> 1:04:26.990 never become independent. This ideological and legal framework has extended 1:04:27.070 --> 1:04:30.730 past the colonies, the most salient example being Guantanamo Bay, 1:04:30.750 --> 1:04:35.310 a colonial holdover from U.S. occupation in Cuba. Per Kaplan 1:04:35.370 --> 1:04:38.640 in her essay, Where is Guantanamo Bay?, court decisions built 1:04:38.700 --> 1:04:41.460 on top of the insular cases recognize the base as 1:04:41.520 --> 1:04:46.640 domestic for some purposes and foreign for others, thus facilitating the, quote, 1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:50.070 global reach of U.S. power by creating a shadowy hybrid 1:04:50.110 --> 1:04:55.150 legal system coextensive with the changing needs of empire. There 1:04:55.190 --> 1:04:58.290 have been several attempts to overturn the insular cases, but 1:04:58.330 --> 1:05:02.150 they remain case law. These cases that describe the people 1:05:02.170 --> 1:05:05.090 of Puerto Rico and other U.S. colonies as, quote, alien 1:05:05.150 --> 1:05:08.790 races and savage tribes remain the way that the United 1:05:08.830 --> 1:05:13.970 States views its overseas possessions. The last challenge to the 1:05:14.030 --> 1:05:19.169 insular cases came in 2018, In a case titled Fitisamanu 1:05:19.190 --> 1:05:23.890 versus United States, where free non-citizen nationals from American Samoa 1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:29.420 challenged the U.S. government's denial to extend to them birthright citizenship. 1:05:29.800 --> 1:05:33.959 A Utah federal district court, right? Not an American Samoan court. 1:05:34.100 --> 1:05:38.180 A Utah federal district court declared that American Samoans were 1:05:38.270 --> 1:05:43.070 citizens of the United States and deserve birthright citizenship. But 1:05:43.270 --> 1:05:46.940 the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the decision citing 1:05:47.080 --> 1:05:50.580 the Insular cases. And in this process, there is kind 1:05:50.620 --> 1:05:54.700 of a very specific othering of people of the colonies, right? 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:57.960 You don't get to go to your local court and 1:05:58.440 --> 1:06:02.290 show them, hey, I want to be a part of 1:06:02.330 --> 1:06:04.610 this nation, which is what they wanted, right? You have 1:06:04.650 --> 1:06:08.130 to go to Utah, to the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals, 1:06:08.410 --> 1:06:10.810 and be like, hey, I want you to recognize my 1:06:11.350 --> 1:06:12.430 constitutional rights. 1:06:13.020 --> 1:06:17.130 That has now got me wondering, like, what circuit they're in. Like, 1:06:17.170 --> 1:06:20.610 do they fall into a federal circuit? No, it doesn't 1:06:20.650 --> 1:06:21.810 have a federal court, apparently. 1:06:22.470 --> 1:06:25.610 No, because part of the reason that American Samoa is 1:06:25.750 --> 1:06:28.410 so different from the rest of the colonies, right, is 1:06:28.450 --> 1:06:33.340 that the indigenous population there has kind of wanted to 1:06:33.390 --> 1:06:37.220 keep them separately. And, right, there's varying opinions on this, right, 1:06:37.240 --> 1:06:40.540 which is why we saw that challenge to the insular cases. 1:06:40.920 --> 1:06:45.150 During that challenge, the... country or the government of american 1:06:45.210 --> 1:06:49.270 samoa they were pro-insular cases being like hey we want 1:06:49.290 --> 1:06:52.350 to continue for this to be case law because it 1:06:52.530 --> 1:06:54.840 wouldn't challenge certain laws that they have in the books 1:06:54.930 --> 1:06:58.860 that people with certain amounts of american samoan ancestry can 1:06:58.880 --> 1:07:03.320 buy land and those without it can't buy land there yeah. 1:07:03.600 --> 1:07:06.720 Okay so they didn't want to get equal protection or 1:07:06.740 --> 1:07:09.880 something under the equal protection clause of the constitution they 1:07:09.900 --> 1:07:11.919 felt like it was a net positive for them. 1:07:12.250 --> 1:07:16.930 Yeah, but obviously this has changed through time, I should say, right? 1:07:17.710 --> 1:07:18.490 Right, yeah. 1:07:18.710 --> 1:07:23.570 For some, it means that they can stop gentrification and 1:07:23.630 --> 1:07:28.280 further colonization of their island, but it also means that 1:07:28.720 --> 1:07:33.160 their people face significant challenges if they choose to travel 1:07:33.260 --> 1:07:37.940 outside of American Samoa. which, based on how the U.S. 1:07:37.980 --> 1:07:41.360 economy works, usually means that a significant portion of that 1:07:41.400 --> 1:07:45.180 population has to leave in order to find employment, right? 1:07:45.700 --> 1:07:49.640 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think of, like, how, like, 1:07:49.780 --> 1:07:52.790 Marshallese people, they're not U.S. citizens, but they can travel 1:07:52.830 --> 1:07:55.770 to the U.S. without a visa and reside and. 1:07:55.710 --> 1:07:56.810 Work in the U.S. without a visa. 1:07:56.830 --> 1:07:59.450 But, like, if they join the military, they can join 1:07:59.470 --> 1:08:01.510 the U.S. military, but then if they want to access 1:08:01.570 --> 1:08:05.550 their VA benefits, they have to go to Hawaii, like, 1:08:06.490 --> 1:08:10.610 across like a it's a several hour flight like it's 1:08:11.010 --> 1:08:14.500 several days on a boat right so and like obviously 1:08:14.560 --> 1:08:17.979 not all of the uh you know the services that 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:21.680 they might need medically available on marjora so like they 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:24.220 they have to they have to take that journey just 1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:27.770 to access the benefits that like in theory are owed 1:08:27.830 --> 1:08:28.250 to them. 1:08:29.020 --> 1:08:31.849 Yeah, it's not exactly the same situation here in Puerto Rico, 1:08:31.910 --> 1:08:37.269 but the VA benefits system here is not that great 1:08:37.430 --> 1:08:40.890 compared to the contiguous United States, which in and of 1:08:40.930 --> 1:08:43.850 itself is also not that great from what I've read 1:08:43.890 --> 1:08:44.970 and people have told me. 1:08:45.450 --> 1:08:46.390 Yes, yeah. 1:08:46.570 --> 1:08:50.430 But there's only one hospital here in several clinics. So 1:08:50.750 --> 1:08:53.210 if you live far away from the hospital, you have 1:08:53.229 --> 1:08:57.059 to travel to that to get VA care. And that's like, 1:08:57.820 --> 1:09:00.900 one of the many, many things where the U.S. colonies 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:03.979 are forgotten and left by the wayside in terms of 1:09:04.060 --> 1:09:08.920 these things that the U.S. government should ostensibly provide for 1:09:09.040 --> 1:09:11.780 its citizens and the people under its dominion, right? 1:09:12.100 --> 1:09:12.300 Yeah. 1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:17.230 So the insular cases essentially said that people in the U.S. 1:09:17.250 --> 1:09:20.620 colonies were owned but not part of the United States. 1:09:20.880 --> 1:09:25.340 That meant that we had to be given American citizenship 1:09:25.460 --> 1:09:28.040 if we got it, not the case of American Samoa, 1:09:28.060 --> 1:09:32.440 through federal statute. This is different than people born in 1:09:32.460 --> 1:09:35.720 the contiguous United States or Alaska and Hawaii, where they 1:09:35.760 --> 1:09:39.560 get birthright citizenship through the Constitution. Because the Constitution doesn't 1:09:39.640 --> 1:09:41.860 fully apply to us, we had to get it through 1:09:41.920 --> 1:09:46.210 federal statute. This means that it would be pretty easy 1:09:46.530 --> 1:09:49.870 to take away birthright citizenship in the colonies compared to 1:09:49.910 --> 1:09:54.300 taking away birthright citizenship throughout the entire U.S. This is 1:09:54.360 --> 1:09:59.080 something that Virginia Congressman Morgan Griffith wants to do. Griffith 1:09:59.100 --> 1:10:03.120 presented a law to eliminate birthright citizenship in the U.S. colonies, 1:10:03.840 --> 1:10:05.940 saying that it was the only thing that the U.S. 1:10:05.979 --> 1:10:10.340 could do to protect American citizenship. And because our American 1:10:10.380 --> 1:10:13.960 citizenship is through statute, several laws throughout history in Puerto Rico, 1:10:13.979 --> 1:10:17.629 as it was in 1917, then codified by the American 1:10:17.870 --> 1:10:22.110 Nationality Act. He could do it if the law passed 1:10:22.150 --> 1:10:27.750 Congress and Congress chose to eliminate birthright citizenship here. His 1:10:27.870 --> 1:10:32.940 press release specifically cited the Insular cases as giving Congress 1:10:32.979 --> 1:10:35.360 the power to take it away. However, to be clear, 1:10:36.340 --> 1:10:38.720 It's very unlikely that this bill will even make it 1:10:38.740 --> 1:10:41.720 to a vote, much less become law. But through this 1:10:42.280 --> 1:10:45.950 kind of threat to take away birthright citizenship, we see 1:10:46.550 --> 1:10:50.450 how the U.S. still has kind of extremely direct control 1:10:50.670 --> 1:10:52.110 over its colonies. 1:10:52.729 --> 1:10:52.969 Yeah. 1:10:53.750 --> 1:10:56.059 You know, as I hope I have evidence throughout this episode, 1:10:56.479 --> 1:11:00.460 the American colonies, the current American colonies, not the 14 colonies, right, 1:11:01.240 --> 1:11:06.180 have always been laboratories for the American experiment. in terms 1:11:06.240 --> 1:11:10.440 of surveillance, in terms of military occupation. And here, with 1:11:10.540 --> 1:11:13.840 this bill that, again, probably won't even make it to 1:11:13.880 --> 1:11:19.870 a vote, we are seeing the Republican administration trying to 1:11:20.810 --> 1:11:24.890 experiment with how they can take away birthright citizenship, which 1:11:25.010 --> 1:11:29.090 they failed to do through Trump's executive order. But they 1:11:29.110 --> 1:11:31.900 are trying to see how they can ram it through 1:11:31.920 --> 1:11:35.600 to take it away from people. And recently... we saw 1:11:35.960 --> 1:11:39.060 Trump sign an executive order to do a similar thing 1:11:39.840 --> 1:11:43.300 to ostensibly address, quote unquote, birth tourism, a thing that 1:11:43.560 --> 1:11:44.979 doesn't really matter. Yeah. 1:11:45.160 --> 1:11:47.740 In the grand scheme of things, it's an infinitesimally small 1:11:47.800 --> 1:11:48.500 number of people. 1:11:48.780 --> 1:11:51.260 Exactly. The thing that I want to express is that 1:11:51.300 --> 1:11:55.809 the U.S. colonies have always been laboratories of empire. What 1:11:55.870 --> 1:11:59.910 happens here doesn't stay here. And contrary to the way 1:11:59.950 --> 1:12:02.070 that many people think, the U.S. and other empires, to 1:12:02.110 --> 1:12:08.050 be clear, doesn't just exert power, ideology, and movements outwards. Instead, 1:12:08.070 --> 1:12:12.589 it is in a continuous feedback loop with its colonies 1:12:12.630 --> 1:12:17.580 that have shaped what happens in the imperial core the 1:12:17.620 --> 1:12:19.880 same way that it has shaped what happens in the 1:12:19.920 --> 1:12:24.099 imperial periphery. And I want to end this episode by 1:12:24.180 --> 1:12:29.880 talking about how Trump has signaled several times towards U.S. 1:12:29.920 --> 1:12:33.979 territorial expansion. He has made moves or said that he 1:12:34.020 --> 1:12:37.519 wants to annex Canada, Venezuela, Cuba, the Gaza Strip, Mexico, 1:12:37.580 --> 1:12:40.479 and Greenland, among others. And as I mentioned in the 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:43.810 last episode, he's been obsessed with Greenland for a hot minute, 1:12:44.390 --> 1:12:46.889 even reportedly saying that he wanted to trade it for 1:12:46.990 --> 1:12:50.910 Puerto Rico, which was then ravaged by Hurricane Maria, according 1:12:50.950 --> 1:12:55.299 to NBC. His most recent signal was posting a picture 1:12:55.340 --> 1:12:59.160 of Venezuela with the American flag on it, essentially saying 1:12:59.200 --> 1:13:02.540 that he wants to make it the 51st state. To 1:13:02.580 --> 1:13:06.030 be clear, there are several other places that he could 1:13:06.090 --> 1:13:09.430 do that in, but he is projecting this idea of 1:13:09.470 --> 1:13:14.110 the 51st state as a way of kind of colonial capture. Right. 1:13:14.270 --> 1:13:14.470 Right. 1:13:14.510 --> 1:13:18.140 By promising to bring liberty and freedom to Venezuelans. He 1:13:18.189 --> 1:13:21.130 is saying, we will make you equal. even though he 1:13:21.170 --> 1:13:24.630 has forgotten a bunch of equal rights for 4 million 1:13:24.650 --> 1:13:27.490 people in the US colonies. And while a lot of 1:13:27.530 --> 1:13:30.830 Trump's rhetoric about territorial expansion of the United States has 1:13:30.870 --> 1:13:33.650 been brushed off as the mad ramblings of a despot 1:13:33.750 --> 1:13:36.800 without any real power to do so, he did genuinely 1:13:36.850 --> 1:13:39.880 kidnap Nicolas Maduro and has kind of made the country 1:13:39.979 --> 1:13:42.240 into a vassal state of the US, right? 1:13:42.560 --> 1:13:42.740 Yeah. 1:13:42.960 --> 1:13:45.220 And I learned that this is called a sucerain. 1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:45.700 Okay. 1:13:45.979 --> 1:13:49.870 A sucerain is a political leader that expresses power Over 1:13:49.910 --> 1:13:51.710 a separate sovereign entity. 1:13:52.070 --> 1:13:56.510 Okay. Yeah. In like an informal fashion like this? 1:13:57.310 --> 1:13:57.490 Yeah. 1:13:58.010 --> 1:13:58.250 Okay. 1:13:58.890 --> 1:14:01.650 While the lines aren't quite clear enough right now, it's 1:14:01.689 --> 1:14:05.150 become increasingly evident that the U.S. is exerting more than 1:14:05.229 --> 1:14:09.410 simple influence in Venezuela, making it into a U.S. protectorate 1:14:09.490 --> 1:14:11.530 in all but name. And to be honest with you, 1:14:11.630 --> 1:14:14.350 in my opinion, the U.S. would never add another state 1:14:14.390 --> 1:14:17.750 to the union, particularly one that would add 28.6 million 1:14:17.810 --> 1:14:21.720 Latinx people to the nation's demographics. However, as I hope 1:14:21.760 --> 1:14:24.700 I have evidence throughout the episode, the American empire has 1:14:24.780 --> 1:14:28.940 various forms of exerting its colonial influence throughout the region 1:14:29.060 --> 1:14:31.780 and the world, right? It doesn't necessarily have to become 1:14:31.820 --> 1:14:35.210 a state to become owned by the United States, as 1:14:35.229 --> 1:14:39.170 Puerto Rico, Guam, and several other colonies. Within its treatment 1:14:39.390 --> 1:14:42.309 of its colonies and the insular cases, the U.S. has 1:14:42.370 --> 1:14:46.530 established a separate ideological and legal framework to treat those 1:14:46.710 --> 1:14:49.639 people and pieces of land that it wants to own 1:14:49.770 --> 1:14:54.340 and occupy but not incorporate. Carlos from the future here. 1:14:54.600 --> 1:14:57.439 A couple days after we recorded this episode, Trump announced 1:14:57.479 --> 1:15:01.740 that he already considered the Strait of Hormuz quote-unquote American territory. 1:15:02.240 --> 1:15:05.310 This was reported by several news outlets, including The Guardian, 1:15:05.370 --> 1:15:07.870 which is where I read it originally. While it seems 1:15:07.930 --> 1:15:10.330 pretty obvious that the U.S. government has no way of 1:15:10.450 --> 1:15:13.689 actually establishing control over the Strait because it's on the 1:15:13.750 --> 1:15:16.660 losing side of the war, the overture towards taking it 1:15:16.740 --> 1:15:19.640 over is an attempt to establish a new sphere of U.S. 1:15:19.660 --> 1:15:23.960 hegemony in the region. Imperialism is a business enterprise, and 1:15:24.000 --> 1:15:26.300 much like the conquest of the Guano Islands and the 1:15:26.360 --> 1:15:31.019 inhabited colonies meant access to new resources and military footholds, U.S. 1:15:31.050 --> 1:15:34.470 control of the Strait, which again, very unlikely, would be 1:15:34.510 --> 1:15:37.490 an incredible boon for the U.S. economy. The most comparable 1:15:37.550 --> 1:15:40.170 thing here would be the Panama Canal. Control of the 1:15:40.210 --> 1:15:43.229 canal helped the U.S. become a major global power because 1:15:43.270 --> 1:15:46.219 it controlled shipping in the region. The U.S. government likely 1:15:46.260 --> 1:15:48.620 wants to do something similar with the Strait of Hormuz, 1:15:48.860 --> 1:15:51.900 a major maritime passage for all types of things that 1:15:51.939 --> 1:15:54.300 make the economy move. While the threat against the Strait 1:15:54.439 --> 1:15:56.080 is the newest in a long line of threats to 1:15:56.100 --> 1:15:58.960 annex new territory to the U.S., we should normalize them. 1:15:59.280 --> 1:16:01.620 Through its colonies and the insular cases, as well as 1:16:01.700 --> 1:16:05.010 decades of colonialism and imperialism, The U.S. has built the 1:16:05.110 --> 1:16:08.470 apparatus to expand its empire to people and places beyond 1:16:08.510 --> 1:16:11.890 its borders. While it's unlikely, we shouldn't write it off completely, 1:16:12.110 --> 1:16:15.010 especially as the Trump administration continues to signal that it 1:16:15.050 --> 1:16:18.099 wants to regain domination over the Western Hemisphere and other 1:16:18.140 --> 1:16:18.840 parts of the world. 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:21.720 If they'd like to read more of your work, where 1:16:21.760 --> 1:16:22.880 can they find you? 1:16:23.420 --> 1:16:31.750 Yeah, I'm at Vaquero2XL on social media. It's V-A-Q-U-X-L. E-R-O-2-X-L. 1:16:32.250 --> 1:16:35.250 I'm a freelancer, so I've written for a bunch of places. 1:16:35.850 --> 1:16:39.250 My most recent work has been a series of short 1:16:39.310 --> 1:16:45.030 documentaries about different immigrant populations in Puerto Rico, the Dominican population, 1:16:45.070 --> 1:16:48.719 the Chinese population, and the Palestinian population. The Palestinian one 1:16:48.760 --> 1:16:51.040 came out a little less than a month ago. And 1:16:51.060 --> 1:16:54.520 that's pretty much where you can find me. Thanks for 1:16:54.560 --> 1:16:57.300 accompanying me on this colonial journey, James. 1:16:57.900 --> 1:17:01.760 That's what I do. But yeah, thank you for explaining that. 1:17:01.979 --> 1:17:03.320 I feel like it's really good to have these things 1:17:03.400 --> 1:17:06.269 all wrapped up in a way people can understand like that. 1:17:06.290 --> 1:17:07.070 Yeah. 1:17:21.070 --> 1:17:24.070 Welcome to It Could Happen Here, seemingly the only podcast 1:17:24.130 --> 1:17:27.010 bold enough to do what the mainstream media is too 1:17:27.070 --> 1:17:31.630 cowardly to do and let trans people talk about ourselves, 1:17:31.770 --> 1:17:35.510 I guess, or the unhinged issues that a bunch of 1:17:35.590 --> 1:17:39.630 reactionary cis people have foisted upon us. And here to 1:17:39.689 --> 1:17:46.990 talk with me today about a truly baffling and very 1:17:47.470 --> 1:17:52.680 weird and shitty... anti-trans panic that has been launched in 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:57.460 the WNBA is Frankie de la Cruz, who's a sports 1:17:57.520 --> 1:17:59.860 writer who writes at the intersection of sports and gender 1:18:00.000 --> 1:18:01.720 and does a very good job of it in a 1:18:01.760 --> 1:18:04.700 way that I was going to say few others do. 1:18:04.780 --> 1:18:07.200 And then I was like, who am I thinking about 1:18:07.260 --> 1:18:09.220 who also does this and does it this well? 1:18:09.300 --> 1:18:11.479 And like, I'm not sure I have anyone. 1:18:12.060 --> 1:18:13.770 So incredible work. 1:18:14.030 --> 1:18:14.930 I appreciate that. 1:18:16.570 --> 1:18:19.290 The other guest I have on today is Bugs Matrix, who, 1:18:20.030 --> 1:18:22.350 if you have like been on the internet and been 1:18:22.510 --> 1:18:26.490 anywhere near trans people, you are aware of bugs. What 1:18:26.790 --> 1:18:31.410 I think people are less aware of is a, that 1:18:31.470 --> 1:18:33.570 if you ever heard a trans person say, yeah, that's, 1:18:33.610 --> 1:18:39.970 that's bugs. B B bugs was also a trans college athlete. 1:18:40.670 --> 1:18:42.769 So both of you two, welcome to the show. And 1:18:42.850 --> 1:18:46.550 I'm excited to get to actually talk about this WNBA, 1:18:46.870 --> 1:18:53.570 Sophie Cunningham bullshit with, The trees. of former trans college athlete, 1:18:53.650 --> 1:18:56.570 trans journalist, and whatever the hell I am, transgender. 1:18:57.900 --> 1:18:59.440 It's truly the meeting of irons. 1:18:59.880 --> 1:19:02.520 Yeah, I'm excited too. I spend most of my time 1:19:02.800 --> 1:19:05.180 talking to cis people about this, so it's nice to 1:19:05.200 --> 1:19:07.820 have different conversation partners. 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:11.400 Yeah, it's it's so nice to be able to talk 1:19:11.439 --> 1:19:13.580 with people who intrinsically know Ball. 1:19:15.229 --> 1:19:15.930 That too. 1:19:17.020 --> 1:19:22.930 Oh, God. So, OK, speaking of knowing Ball. So the 1:19:22.970 --> 1:19:26.270 specific controversy, I don't even know what to call this 1:19:27.090 --> 1:19:28.530 media frenzy. 1:19:29.750 --> 1:19:30.270 Witch hunt. 1:19:30.870 --> 1:19:31.870 Yeah. 1:19:32.210 --> 1:19:32.430 Yeah. 1:19:32.990 --> 1:19:39.940 Yeah. centered around a WNBA player named Sophie Cunningham, which 1:19:40.540 --> 1:19:43.910 I guess people have heard of her now. My first 1:19:43.950 --> 1:19:49.010 experience of this was... Seeing everyone talking about Sophie Cunningham 1:19:49.130 --> 1:19:52.610 and being absolutely baffled because I was like, wait, isn't 1:19:52.630 --> 1:19:55.290 she that bench player from The Fever? Why is everyone 1:19:55.330 --> 1:19:56.030 talking about her? 1:19:56.650 --> 1:19:56.930 I don't know. 1:19:56.970 --> 1:19:58.550 In, like, football terms, the only thing I can think 1:19:58.610 --> 1:20:02.670 of is, like, somehow everyone in the world knows who, like, 1:20:03.150 --> 1:20:06.630 the Broncos' long snapper is. It's like, what? 1:20:06.670 --> 1:20:10.550 Like, why does anyone know this? Like, what's happening? 1:20:10.650 --> 1:20:14.030 It's like, she's the drop chap. What's going on, dog? 1:20:14.330 --> 1:20:17.710 Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think The ball knowers have 1:20:17.750 --> 1:20:20.370 kind of always known, because she's a rage baiter, she's 1:20:20.470 --> 1:20:24.110 kind of been a professional bench warmer and rage baiter, 1:20:24.570 --> 1:20:28.130 but the rage baiting has really come to the forefront 1:20:28.229 --> 1:20:31.280 over the last season or two. I think she's personally 1:20:31.360 --> 1:20:35.880 preparing for a exit of the basketball career to right-wing 1:20:35.920 --> 1:20:37.800 grifter kind of trajectory. 1:20:37.820 --> 1:20:38.760 Oh, absolutely. 1:20:38.780 --> 1:20:41.120 And this worked out perfectly, didn't it? 1:20:41.439 --> 1:20:41.780 Yeah. 1:20:41.820 --> 1:20:42.019 Yeah. 1:20:42.500 --> 1:20:44.280 I can't believe this is still a looper than grift. 1:20:44.979 --> 1:20:45.309 Yeah. 1:20:45.590 --> 1:20:45.830 I mean. 1:20:47.040 --> 1:20:50.620 I feel like there's so many places that we can 1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:53.979 start to talk about it, but it's so, I think, 1:20:54.280 --> 1:20:56.630 for me as a journalist, the most frustrating part of 1:20:56.670 --> 1:20:59.769 the entire thing is how it started, which was with 1:20:59.850 --> 1:21:07.960 irresponsible journalism and irresponsible ESPN profile with this dropped-in quote 1:21:08.020 --> 1:21:10.380 from her. And it has, I mean, we're on what 1:21:10.400 --> 1:21:12.340 week of this? Three of this? 1:21:12.720 --> 1:21:14.240 I think we're somewhere in week three, yeah. 1:21:14.650 --> 1:21:18.830 Yeah, it seems sort of like it's never ending. I 1:21:18.870 --> 1:21:19.570 wish it would end. 1:21:20.610 --> 1:21:22.620 Yeah, we're going to get more into this in a second. 1:21:22.820 --> 1:21:25.560 I cannot emphasize this enough. This is a player who 1:21:25.620 --> 1:21:28.720 comes off of the bench on this team, which means 1:21:28.740 --> 1:21:31.150 she's not a starter. And she comes off the bench 1:21:31.229 --> 1:21:33.550 to like brick a couple of threes and then goes back. 1:21:33.770 --> 1:21:34.929 And start fights. 1:21:34.990 --> 1:21:35.970 This is like not a. 1:21:35.970 --> 1:21:37.230 Excuse me, excuse me. 1:21:37.310 --> 1:21:38.189 I'm being racist. 1:21:40.350 --> 1:21:40.830 That's true. 1:21:41.170 --> 1:21:43.670 But like, this is not like a star. And the 1:21:43.689 --> 1:21:47.469 team that she's on, the Indiana Fever, has like several 1:21:47.530 --> 1:21:51.450 legitimate superstars on it. And ESPN is like cutting their 1:21:51.490 --> 1:21:53.849 highlights where the first highlight will be like her making 1:21:53.890 --> 1:21:55.350 a basket. And it's like, well, okay, that's the only 1:21:55.390 --> 1:21:56.750 basket she's made in like two weeks. 1:21:57.720 --> 1:21:58.650 But it's like, why? 1:21:58.680 --> 1:21:58.750 Why? 1:21:59.680 --> 1:22:01.820 God, I don't know. I'm frustrated about this, but we 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:03.639 should tell the actual story. And I think to tell 1:22:03.660 --> 1:22:05.929 the story, I think we need to go back and 1:22:06.050 --> 1:22:09.310 talk about Caitlin Clark's entrance to the league because I 1:22:09.350 --> 1:22:13.330 think that, to some extent, is the beginning of all 1:22:13.350 --> 1:22:19.189 of this and the beginning of kind of this bunch 1:22:19.229 --> 1:22:24.730 of weird fascists who are now, I guess, quote-unquote WNBA fans. 1:22:25.070 --> 1:22:28.670 No, I think that's true because... You know, I think 1:22:28.689 --> 1:22:33.390 the WNBA has this reputation as like a very progressive league. 1:22:33.689 --> 1:22:35.870 And for the most part, that's the players that have 1:22:35.890 --> 1:22:38.630 been progressive. The league is a corporation that has benefited 1:22:38.770 --> 1:22:43.640 from the players, you know, actions. But there's always going 1:22:43.660 --> 1:22:47.240 to be conservative, you know, players or people in kind 1:22:47.280 --> 1:22:49.840 of any atmosphere. And Sophie Cunningham, if you've followed her 1:22:49.880 --> 1:22:53.180 since her college career, has always been that. She, you know, 1:22:53.720 --> 1:22:56.740 was known for being racist when she was at Mizzou, like, 1:22:57.290 --> 1:22:59.809 There was the meme of her and Kalia Copper when 1:22:59.850 --> 1:23:02.349 they were both on different teams. They really did not 1:23:02.370 --> 1:23:05.080 get along. This is a reputation that Sophie has had 1:23:05.500 --> 1:23:07.960 for a long time and on its own just would 1:23:08.000 --> 1:23:10.400 have been, I think, you know, again, a random bench 1:23:10.439 --> 1:23:14.420 player that most people didn't know. But Kaitlyn Clark coming 1:23:14.460 --> 1:23:17.050 to the WNBA and being as high profile as she 1:23:17.210 --> 1:23:19.750 was and the way she was framed as the next 1:23:19.810 --> 1:23:24.590 great white straight cis hope for this league really brought 1:23:24.890 --> 1:23:28.330 a particular kind of culture and fan with her and 1:23:29.270 --> 1:23:32.380 so i think without caitlyn clark coming into the league 1:23:32.680 --> 1:23:36.340 and you know maga people and right wing people seeing 1:23:36.560 --> 1:23:39.729 her as a way to kind of gain a foothold 1:23:40.010 --> 1:23:42.809 with this league i don't think sophie blows up in 1:23:42.830 --> 1:23:45.349 the way that she does especially when you consider that 1:23:45.470 --> 1:23:48.500 right She's been brought to the Fever as essentially Caitlin 1:23:48.540 --> 1:23:53.500 Clark's enforcer because Caitlin Clark can't play defense or hold 1:23:53.540 --> 1:23:54.760 her own on the court at all. 1:23:54.780 --> 1:23:59.809 I swear to God. It's like this team, I keep 1:23:59.850 --> 1:24:04.229 doing cross-sports comparisons, but it's like the Fever are this 1:24:04.330 --> 1:24:07.570 weird team where it's like they're like last year's Cowboys 1:24:07.630 --> 1:24:08.120 where it's like a. 1:24:10.540 --> 1:24:12.860 Weird white fan base that also pulls in a bunch 1:24:12.900 --> 1:24:16.740 of random, like, I just kind of know about football fans. B, 1:24:17.080 --> 1:24:19.820 elite offense. Literally cannot play defense at all. 1:24:20.180 --> 1:24:23.080 Yeah, and, like, this isn't hockey. We don't have enforcers 1:24:23.640 --> 1:24:25.549 in women's volleyball in the same way. 1:24:25.850 --> 1:24:28.790 Right, it's not full contact like this, dog. 1:24:29.430 --> 1:24:29.790 Yeah. 1:24:30.510 --> 1:24:32.550 I think it's worth kind of talking about the racial 1:24:32.570 --> 1:24:38.110 dynamics of this because a lot of the initial hype around. 1:24:39.260 --> 1:24:43.380 Caitlin Clark was this weird sort of like, yeah, like 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:45.420 what you're saying, Frankie, like this great white hope stuff. 1:24:45.740 --> 1:24:49.220 And like her rival was like, she was like set 1:24:49.300 --> 1:24:52.880 up against Angel Reese, who's a black player who is 1:24:53.300 --> 1:24:56.080 very weird and interesting basketball player. But unfortunately, nobody really 1:24:56.120 --> 1:24:59.360 cares about that because everyone, there's just this like racist 1:24:59.580 --> 1:25:02.970 sort of panic around this whole thing to, to the 1:25:03.010 --> 1:25:07.150 extent where like, there's like congressmen, who are talking about 1:25:07.250 --> 1:25:10.930 starting investigations into Caitlin Clark's fouls. 1:25:11.330 --> 1:25:14.570 Yeah, and I think it's important to point out whether 1:25:14.590 --> 1:25:16.790 you want to be super generous and put none of 1:25:16.850 --> 1:25:19.509 this onto Caitlin and say she's an avatar for whatever 1:25:19.590 --> 1:25:22.830 culture war the right is waging, or you want to 1:25:22.870 --> 1:25:26.110 say she really should have been shouting this down a 1:25:26.150 --> 1:25:29.030 long time ago, and whether she believes this or not, 1:25:29.070 --> 1:25:33.600 she's in part responsible because she's complicit in her silence. 1:25:33.939 --> 1:25:37.400 Whichever kind of route you want to take with that 1:25:37.800 --> 1:25:41.600 what you can't deny is that every time she flops 1:25:41.900 --> 1:25:44.640 or is you know takes a hard foul against a 1:25:44.689 --> 1:25:49.130 player who is black queer masculine it gets blown up 1:25:49.330 --> 1:25:52.070 the player on the other end of that is getting 1:25:52.090 --> 1:25:55.700 you know death threats they're dealing with harassment and abuse 1:25:55.780 --> 1:25:58.000 and racial slurs and this has been a pattern that 1:25:58.040 --> 1:26:00.750 goes back to her rookie season And so there is 1:26:00.830 --> 1:26:04.610 very much a gender component, right? A racial component to 1:26:04.770 --> 1:26:07.950 how Caitlin Clark is being received by this fan base 1:26:08.030 --> 1:26:12.950 and how her opponents in a predominantly Black, overwhelmingly queer 1:26:13.170 --> 1:26:15.570 league are also being received. 1:26:16.130 --> 1:26:16.390 Yeah. 1:26:16.490 --> 1:26:19.230 And circling back to what you were saying about whether 1:26:19.290 --> 1:26:22.290 or not Caitlin Clark is, you know, either you think 1:26:22.370 --> 1:26:26.490 either she's complicit or not in this, like that is 1:26:26.650 --> 1:26:31.269 the base of people who have surrounded her. And that's 1:26:31.390 --> 1:26:35.990 been the basis of the way that sports media also has, 1:26:36.229 --> 1:26:39.210 has interacted with her because if you're sports media, you know, 1:26:39.370 --> 1:26:41.810 there's an enormous incentive to just sort of drive out 1:26:41.870 --> 1:26:45.450 this like racist drivel and like, you know, make clips 1:26:45.530 --> 1:26:48.150 of like every single time she gets knocked down or something, 1:26:48.180 --> 1:26:50.260 or every time she just like flops when someone like 1:26:50.840 --> 1:26:53.240 is like even vaguely in her proximity. 1:26:53.260 --> 1:26:53.620 Yeah. 1:26:54.620 --> 1:26:56.740 It creates this sort of feedback loop of it where 1:26:56.979 --> 1:27:01.519 you have, on the one hand, you have these white supremacists, right, 1:27:02.420 --> 1:27:05.479 who feed off of this stuff and want to use 1:27:05.520 --> 1:27:08.420 this as an avenue to push their racism, but then 1:27:08.500 --> 1:27:12.540 also that develops this symbiotic relationship with the sports media 1:27:12.740 --> 1:27:14.389 who are like, yeah, we can make money off of 1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:17.490 this and we're sort of like this a lot of 1:27:17.510 --> 1:27:18.170 the time anyways. 1:27:18.670 --> 1:27:22.930 Yeah, and I've been covering the WNBA for about a 1:27:22.970 --> 1:27:26.180 decade since it was Just lesbians and old people in 1:27:26.220 --> 1:27:30.939 the stands. And those were the best days, I will say. 1:27:30.970 --> 1:27:33.870 And as someone who has covered the league for that 1:27:33.910 --> 1:27:36.070 long and been to as many games as I have, 1:27:36.750 --> 1:27:39.490 I will obviously say not all Fever fans feel a 1:27:39.530 --> 1:27:42.930 particular way or believe a certain thing. Of course, that's 1:27:42.970 --> 1:27:45.910 the case. I've also seen the shift in the three 1:27:45.930 --> 1:27:47.990 years that Caitlin Clark has been in the league of 1:27:48.410 --> 1:27:50.630 who shows up to the Fever games. And as we 1:27:50.650 --> 1:27:52.490 will continue to talk about, I think as we talk 1:27:52.530 --> 1:27:55.260 about Sophie and now that kind of Sophie has become 1:27:55.280 --> 1:27:59.070 the actual mouthpiece that Caitlin has failed to be for 1:27:59.270 --> 1:28:02.330 these people, the people who are showing up to their 1:28:02.390 --> 1:28:08.349 road games as well in support of Sophie and her viewpoints. 1:28:08.850 --> 1:28:12.179 And so, of course, right, probably the majority of Fever 1:28:12.220 --> 1:28:16.460 fans are great. And it's also true that there really 1:28:16.500 --> 1:28:20.840 has been an influx of people who never... I can 1:28:20.880 --> 1:28:23.340 curse here, right? Never fucked with the WNBA, right? They 1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:28.019 didn't care about women's sports. And they have shown up 1:28:28.120 --> 1:28:31.550 and brought a lot of the toxic mainstream culture and 1:28:31.600 --> 1:28:34.610 things about men's sports culture that probably most of us 1:28:34.650 --> 1:28:39.230 watch women's sports to get away from has shown up here. 1:28:39.250 --> 1:28:39.710 Right. 1:28:39.750 --> 1:28:39.890 Yes. 1:28:40.100 --> 1:28:42.979 It coincides with, with Caitlin Clark, you know, coming to 1:28:43.000 --> 1:28:46.380 the league. So I guess we should start actually talking 1:28:46.720 --> 1:28:48.939 about Sophie Cunningham. 1:28:49.400 --> 1:28:50.229 Unfortunately. 1:28:51.290 --> 1:28:51.750 Yeah. 1:28:52.570 --> 1:28:57.610 Like for better or for worse, Caitlin Clark, does want 1:28:57.750 --> 1:28:59.790 to play basketball. 1:28:59.270 --> 1:29:02.250 Yeah like she she's here to literally play ball like 1:29:02.310 --> 1:29:05.890 like definitely her not speaking up against like being portrayed 1:29:06.130 --> 1:29:11.250 as this avatar is shitty and frustrating but like at 1:29:11.290 --> 1:29:13.680 the end of the day she's here to play with 1:29:13.700 --> 1:29:18.599 the nice little orange sphere and Sophie not so. 1:29:18.479 --> 1:29:21.430 Much Yeah, this is one of these things where it's 1:29:21.530 --> 1:29:23.530 kind of vibes based, but I feel like the way 1:29:23.570 --> 1:29:25.880 that it was portrayed in the media and then this 1:29:25.910 --> 1:29:28.160 also fed into sort of like the fascist base was 1:29:28.220 --> 1:29:31.340 that Caitlin Clark was going to come into the WNBA 1:29:31.380 --> 1:29:32.979 and she was immediately going to be the best player 1:29:33.000 --> 1:29:34.330 and everyone was going to have to deal with it. 1:29:34.770 --> 1:29:38.309 And that like didn't happen because she's like, a pretty 1:29:38.350 --> 1:29:41.570 good player, but, like... She's fine. A, even if she 1:29:41.630 --> 1:29:45.639 was that good, it's like, okay, unfortunately for every other 1:29:45.689 --> 1:29:48.439 great basketball player in the WNBA, you exist at the 1:29:48.479 --> 1:29:51.860 same time as Prime Major Wilson, so, like, good luck 1:29:51.979 --> 1:29:53.300 ever winning any award. 1:29:53.820 --> 1:29:55.380 Like, I don't know. 1:29:55.400 --> 1:29:58.139 This is, like, maybe the greatest basketball player who's, like, 1:29:58.280 --> 1:29:59.780 walked the earth in this generation. 1:29:59.840 --> 1:30:00.860 Like, good luck. 1:30:01.220 --> 1:30:05.210 It's true. And even when Caitlyn drops 30 points, she's 1:30:05.290 --> 1:30:07.630 often giving up 30 on turnovers, so she kind of 1:30:07.670 --> 1:30:08.890 ends up being a net neutral. 1:30:10.950 --> 1:30:11.530 Yeah. 1:30:11.729 --> 1:30:14.070 And Angel Wilson, by the way, was, like, Defensive Player 1:30:14.090 --> 1:30:17.689 of the Year and MVP. And, like, you know, it's like... She's, like, 1:30:18.310 --> 1:30:20.599 you know, just this, like, transcendent player. 1:30:20.620 --> 1:30:20.790 But.... 1:30:22.979 --> 1:30:26.099 I think there's this moment where like it becomes clear 1:30:26.300 --> 1:30:28.220 after like a couple of years of this that like, 1:30:28.860 --> 1:30:30.160 you know, like there's still a bunch of people who 1:30:30.200 --> 1:30:32.479 are in the trenches being like Caitlin Clark is the 1:30:32.500 --> 1:30:35.280 best player in the league. But like, no, it's not 1:30:35.340 --> 1:30:40.080 clear to me if she's better than like rookie Olivia Biles. 1:30:40.100 --> 1:30:40.640 She's not. 1:30:41.540 --> 1:30:42.500 I don't think she is. 1:30:43.540 --> 1:30:46.700 She's not. Olivia Miles has a has an MVP case 1:30:46.820 --> 1:30:50.620 like as a rookie that I mean, yeah, doesn't in 1:30:50.640 --> 1:30:51.120 my opinion. 1:30:52.110 --> 1:30:52.550 I love her. 1:30:52.570 --> 1:30:54.690 I want to talk about her at the end because 1:30:54.710 --> 1:30:55.930 I want to end up like a little bit of 1:30:55.970 --> 1:30:59.730 just like ball good. But I think there's this moment 1:30:59.790 --> 1:31:02.610 of like Caitlin, like I guess she like kind of 1:31:02.640 --> 1:31:04.769 denounced it like the end of her first season. 1:31:04.880 --> 1:31:07.439 But like she felt like without going like hard in 1:31:07.460 --> 1:31:10.300 the paint to it, like you're still leaving room. 1:31:10.600 --> 1:31:10.920 Yeah. 1:31:11.080 --> 1:31:13.140 But it's like like she won't go hard in the 1:31:13.180 --> 1:31:15.560 paint against it. But she also, you know, as you're saying, 1:31:15.580 --> 1:31:17.180 like before the break, it's like, yeah, she wants to 1:31:17.200 --> 1:31:17.960 play basketball. 1:31:18.400 --> 1:31:18.519 Yeah. 1:31:19.310 --> 1:31:22.170 And so she's not willing to go on camera and 1:31:22.310 --> 1:31:25.250 say the things and do the things that these people want. 1:31:25.850 --> 1:31:29.160 And I guess that's where Sophie Cunningham came in because 1:31:30.120 --> 1:31:31.500 she will do that. 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:32.040 She will. 1:31:32.100 --> 1:31:34.620 And I mean, I think it's also related that she 1:31:34.640 --> 1:31:38.580 started a podcast this year, right? Like she has decided to, 1:31:39.700 --> 1:31:46.490 she's basically using her profile as a fever bench player, AKA, 1:31:47.030 --> 1:31:51.300 you know, Caitlin Clark's enforcer. And the exposure that has 1:31:51.340 --> 1:31:53.200 come with that, which is more than she's ever had 1:31:53.240 --> 1:31:56.100 in her, you know, however many seven or so seasons 1:31:56.439 --> 1:32:00.229 in the WNBA. But to me, what's clear is that 1:32:00.290 --> 1:32:03.470 she is setting herself up for an exit. And the 1:32:03.510 --> 1:32:06.530 podcast is kind of the first step in that. And 1:32:06.590 --> 1:32:09.310 maybe people didn't care what she had to say before. 1:32:09.930 --> 1:32:12.090 But now that more people know who she is because 1:32:12.210 --> 1:32:16.210 of who she's playing with, She is kind of starting 1:32:16.350 --> 1:32:20.160 to step into this other— and it's very, very— we can talk 1:32:20.200 --> 1:32:22.520 more about this, too, but it's very insidious the way 1:32:22.560 --> 1:32:27.460 she talks about sharing her views because she's basically co-opting 1:32:27.500 --> 1:32:30.640 social justice language when she'll say things like, people tell 1:32:30.680 --> 1:32:33.730 you to use a platform, and then when you use it, right, 1:32:33.810 --> 1:32:36.479 they criticize you for it or whatever it is. And 1:32:36.490 --> 1:32:40.120 so she's kind of doing this thing where she's starting 1:32:40.180 --> 1:32:42.740 a podcast. She's already, also, she keeps getting fined for 1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:45.200 saying shit on her podcast about the refs and stuff. 1:32:45.220 --> 1:32:48.100 She really just, like, mouths off. Yeah. 1:32:49.040 --> 1:32:51.240 Wait, wait, maybe her being on a podcast is a 1:32:51.270 --> 1:32:51.810 good thing. 1:32:52.310 --> 1:32:52.950 Yeah, right? 1:32:53.070 --> 1:32:56.950 So she has this podcast, but then at the same time, 1:32:57.550 --> 1:33:01.330 she's projecting the, I'm using my platform for, you know, 1:33:01.710 --> 1:33:02.510 my beliefs, right? 1:33:02.850 --> 1:33:04.840 Which is something that, like, I've heard even sort of, like, 1:33:04.900 --> 1:33:07.520 left-wing people, like, in the space doing this, like, well, 1:33:07.580 --> 1:33:09.860 it's just an interesting thing because the WNBA has always 1:33:09.880 --> 1:33:13.140 been a league where, like, players do use their platforms 1:33:13.700 --> 1:33:16.920 to do activism. And, like, and that is absolutely true. Like, 1:33:17.000 --> 1:33:19.150 the actual first in professional sports, actually, I could be 1:33:19.280 --> 1:33:21.970 wrong about about that because maybe there was another women's 1:33:21.990 --> 1:33:24.030 league that did it first that I just missed, but 1:33:24.050 --> 1:33:26.350 I'm pretty sure they were the first professional sports league 1:33:26.370 --> 1:33:28.890 that was actually doing like anti-police brutality protests. 1:33:28.970 --> 1:33:32.590 Yes, they were. They also, they were doing that before 1:33:32.610 --> 1:33:33.950 Colin Kaepernick took a knee. 1:33:34.070 --> 1:33:34.370 Oh yeah. 1:33:34.470 --> 1:33:37.140 And then once he did kneel, actually that's how I 1:33:37.260 --> 1:33:40.960 started following the WNBA was I was writing about player 1:33:41.000 --> 1:33:44.040 protests and somebody told me entire WNBA teams were kneeling 1:33:44.100 --> 1:33:46.920 on the court and it had gotten no coverage. And 1:33:46.979 --> 1:33:49.719 I was like, oh, and that's when I actually started. 1:33:49.780 --> 1:33:52.870 So Yeah, they were doing media blackouts to talk about 1:33:52.910 --> 1:33:55.170 police brutality before Colin Kaepernick knelt. 1:33:55.470 --> 1:33:56.230 Yeah. 1:33:56.260 --> 1:33:57.179 That's fucking awesome. 1:33:58.060 --> 1:34:00.680 Yeah, they fucking rock. Like, it's good as hell. 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:01.340 That's sick. 1:34:03.120 --> 1:34:06.080 But then you get media people being like, well, this 1:34:06.100 --> 1:34:08.939 has always been a league where people use their platform 1:34:09.220 --> 1:34:10.500 for activism. 1:34:10.920 --> 1:34:15.910 That's such a mealy-mouthed bullshit. Like, okay, sure, technically, but like. 1:34:16.510 --> 1:34:16.750 I. 1:34:16.830 --> 1:34:20.290 Guess you could call a clan rally activism. If you 1:34:20.530 --> 1:34:23.250 really want to do that, I will be angry at you. 1:34:24.090 --> 1:34:27.900 But like, this is like not the same thing at all. 1:34:28.160 --> 1:34:31.040 There is no difference between the Unite the Right rally 1:34:31.360 --> 1:34:34.920 and going to help out at Food Not Bombs. If 1:34:34.960 --> 1:34:39.120 you're stupid. If you're fucking stupid. 1:34:39.160 --> 1:34:40.179 That must be such. 1:34:40.020 --> 1:34:43.020 An amazing world to live in psychologically. Everything must be 1:34:43.120 --> 1:34:46.400 so easy for you if you just don't understand anything. 1:34:46.439 --> 1:34:48.849 You gotta be so great to be a moron. 1:34:49.060 --> 1:34:52.309 I mean, the Turning Point USA flyer to support Sophie 1:34:52.330 --> 1:34:54.970 Cunningham spelled her name wrong, so honestly. 1:34:56.150 --> 1:34:56.570 Of course. 1:34:58.130 --> 1:34:59.530 This is coming back to one of the things about 1:34:59.570 --> 1:35:01.210 being on the right versus being on the left, which 1:35:01.270 --> 1:35:03.880 is like, you know, In order to be on the left, 1:35:03.920 --> 1:35:07.519 you do have to have standards. Like, you can't be, like, 1:35:07.810 --> 1:35:11.470 an abuser, right? Like, you will eventually get run out 1:35:11.510 --> 1:35:11.849 for that. 1:35:11.970 --> 1:35:12.330 Maybe. 1:35:12.390 --> 1:35:13.630 Whereas on the right, you can just do it and 1:35:13.689 --> 1:35:16.850 it's fine. But, comma, if you get arrested, only one 1:35:16.870 --> 1:35:18.610 of these two groups is going to be there for you. 1:35:18.830 --> 1:35:20.750 And it sure as fuck not the people who are 1:35:20.770 --> 1:35:24.840 going to spell your name wrong on the promotional flyer. 1:35:25.160 --> 1:35:40.650 It's so beastline. okay, but like, what has Sophie been 1:35:40.689 --> 1:35:43.530 saying and doing? Let's just get into the meat of it. 1:35:43.650 --> 1:35:44.929 Yeah, let's talk about that. 1:35:44.950 --> 1:35:45.530 Yeah. 1:35:45.770 --> 1:35:47.590 And I think this is where, as I kind of 1:35:47.610 --> 1:35:49.690 said at the beginning, I think it's important to look 1:35:49.729 --> 1:35:52.650 at where it started because I think this was a 1:35:52.689 --> 1:35:55.430 failure of media from the beginning. And the reason that 1:35:55.470 --> 1:35:57.670 it has snowballed in the way that it is is 1:35:57.710 --> 1:36:00.690 with an incredible headline. It was basically like, love her 1:36:00.720 --> 1:36:02.880 or hate her, like Sophie won't be ignored. And I 1:36:02.920 --> 1:36:05.320 kind of was like, well, she was, I was ignoring 1:36:05.340 --> 1:36:08.650 her until you Decided to run a profile. 1:36:08.970 --> 1:36:11.560 Yeah, you've decided she won't be ignored. 1:36:11.680 --> 1:36:16.080 On a baseline, like, this is such a baffling player 1:36:16.120 --> 1:36:16.920 to run a profile of. 1:36:17.620 --> 1:36:20.340 Right, well, so the profile itself, too, is, like, such, 1:36:20.400 --> 1:36:26.030 to me, an example of, like, shoddy journalism. Because they spend, like, 1:36:26.210 --> 1:36:29.229 most of it where her parents are kind of bragging 1:36:29.270 --> 1:36:31.910 about how she was a childhood bully. Then they go 1:36:32.030 --> 1:36:34.910 on to say how she used to play on teams 1:36:34.970 --> 1:36:36.970 with boys and beat them and that was like a 1:36:37.010 --> 1:36:40.670 source of pride for them. And then after those things, 1:36:41.050 --> 1:36:45.040 they kind of casually drop in Sophie saying, people think 1:36:45.080 --> 1:36:48.500 I hate trans, end of sentence. Trans what? 1:36:48.540 --> 1:36:49.080 We don't know. 1:36:51.439 --> 1:36:56.360 But I don't. I don't. I just essentially, I believe 1:36:56.390 --> 1:37:00.130 in love, but I think biological males should not be 1:37:00.390 --> 1:37:03.179 in sport with girls. So again, we also have adult 1:37:03.620 --> 1:37:07.480 men being playing, somehow playing sport with young girls. So 1:37:07.500 --> 1:37:10.540 there was just so many places as a reporter, if 1:37:10.720 --> 1:37:13.160 I were writing this profile, that I kind of would 1:37:13.180 --> 1:37:16.340 have been like, huh, okay, well, can you give any 1:37:16.400 --> 1:37:20.689 examples of, you know, grown men playing sports against girls? 1:37:20.850 --> 1:37:23.189 Could you talk to me about why you're so proud 1:37:23.229 --> 1:37:25.930 of having played against boys, but you think, like, there 1:37:25.970 --> 1:37:28.530 were so many places you could have gone here, and 1:37:28.610 --> 1:37:29.390 none of it happened. 1:37:29.430 --> 1:37:32.250 It just not there in the middle of this profile. 1:37:33.110 --> 1:37:35.770 To be fair to ESPN, they did fire most of 1:37:35.810 --> 1:37:38.030 their actual journalists in order to give more money to 1:37:38.570 --> 1:37:41.530 a fucking Pat McAfee, a guy who used to be 1:37:41.570 --> 1:37:45.080 a hunter, I think, and who now spends all of 1:37:45.120 --> 1:37:47.780 his time having fucking Aaron Rodgers on his show to 1:37:47.800 --> 1:37:50.800 scream about why vaccines are bad and why trans women 1:37:50.820 --> 1:37:53.040 shouldn't be able to compete in sports. So, like, you know, 1:37:53.280 --> 1:37:57.220 this is truly not ESPN's fault. They simply fired everyone 1:37:57.260 --> 1:37:59.830 who could normally do journalism, and now we're left with 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:01.740 whatever this shit is. 1:38:02.460 --> 1:38:05.080 Another person whose opinion on trans women in sports we 1:38:05.100 --> 1:38:06.960 should really be listening to, Aaron Rodgers. 1:38:07.540 --> 1:38:08.960 Yeah, Aaron Rodgers. 1:38:10.000 --> 1:38:10.680 I will listen. 1:38:10.720 --> 1:38:13.050 I will not agree with Aaron Rodgers' position on sports, 1:38:13.100 --> 1:38:15.790 but if he can stay in the pocket for longer 1:38:15.850 --> 1:38:19.770 than 2.3 seconds on two consecutive plays, I will listen 1:38:19.790 --> 1:38:22.570 to him talk about women's sports. And he can't. 1:38:22.890 --> 1:38:24.050 He can't do it. He won't. 1:38:24.070 --> 1:38:28.660 Okay me being pissed at aaron rogers for hitting me 1:38:28.700 --> 1:38:32.320 aside why did they write this that's the part i 1:38:32.580 --> 1:38:33.559 don't understand i. 1:38:34.400 --> 1:38:37.560 Mean because there is like a larger media ecosystem that's 1:38:37.580 --> 1:38:40.420 going to feed on just that one little nugget of 1:38:41.030 --> 1:38:44.130 like anti-trans hate. Like it is so easy. The left 1:38:44.189 --> 1:38:46.210 is going to get mad. The right is going to 1:38:46.270 --> 1:38:49.390 embrace this and it's going to just fuel this culture war. 1:38:49.410 --> 1:38:52.150 Like it's, that's going to generate so many clicks. 1:38:52.490 --> 1:38:52.840 It is. 1:38:52.979 --> 1:38:55.220 And I think, I don't know how long this profile 1:38:55.260 --> 1:38:57.280 was in the works. Sometimes it can be, you know, 1:38:57.300 --> 1:38:58.920 for profiles like this, it can be in the works 1:38:58.939 --> 1:39:01.059 a very long time. Other times it's not, but I 1:39:01.320 --> 1:39:05.280 think it's also worth mentioning that just before this profile dropped, 1:39:05.930 --> 1:39:10.530 Sophie got into a high-profile skirmish during a game against 1:39:10.610 --> 1:39:14.689 the Phoenix Mercury. Many people, most people, have probably seen 1:39:14.729 --> 1:39:17.720 the kind of viral meme of her pointing, and she's 1:39:17.800 --> 1:39:23.160 pointing at Dawana Bonner, who they're former teammates, actually, and 1:39:23.680 --> 1:39:26.340 Alyssa Thomas. And basically, I mean, it was almost like 1:39:26.380 --> 1:39:28.780 a full-team brawl, but there were a lot of kind 1:39:29.360 --> 1:39:32.520 of racial undertones to the way that that went down. 1:39:33.310 --> 1:39:36.830 Racial overtones, the way it was talked about, they were 1:39:37.330 --> 1:39:37.910 just racist shit. 1:39:38.050 --> 1:39:39.970 Yes, yes, yes. 1:39:40.390 --> 1:39:42.389 And the way that meme has shown up, I think, 1:39:42.670 --> 1:39:45.990 is really important because there's not really a way to 1:39:46.170 --> 1:39:49.769 deny that it was racist when it's actually being used 1:39:50.060 --> 1:39:52.729 in very, like, I've seen it at least, in very 1:39:52.850 --> 1:39:57.320 racist or offensive or problematic ways since it happened. But 1:39:57.380 --> 1:40:01.179 that profile drops on the heels of that really big 1:40:01.400 --> 1:40:05.679 fight that was all over the televisions. It was being 1:40:05.760 --> 1:40:08.280 played up and people were taking sides and saying how 1:40:08.360 --> 1:40:11.520 great and how cool Sophie was. It was appalling, actually, 1:40:12.780 --> 1:40:16.700 to watch. But these two things, this profile drops right 1:40:16.740 --> 1:40:18.840 on the heels of that. And I think that that 1:40:19.000 --> 1:40:22.200 really put more eyes on it than might have happened 1:40:22.280 --> 1:40:23.260 otherwise as well. 1:40:23.640 --> 1:40:24.380 That makes sense. 1:40:25.020 --> 1:40:27.340 So I did just pull up the profile and the 1:40:27.439 --> 1:40:31.930 framing of this is so fucking annoying. there's a whole 1:40:31.970 --> 1:40:35.130 section is, is she hero or heel? And then there's 1:40:35.150 --> 1:40:38.179 just anecdotes where she's a hero here. She's a heel here. 1:40:38.300 --> 1:40:40.560 It's like, it's, oh my God. 1:40:41.220 --> 1:40:42.840 It's written very clickbaity. 1:40:43.540 --> 1:40:43.920 It is. 1:40:43.939 --> 1:40:46.300 I was going to say, this is incredibly clickbait. This 1:40:46.340 --> 1:40:51.220 is incredibly like, it's supposed to be like, she's divisive 1:40:51.260 --> 1:40:53.840 for some reason, but we're telling you that she's divisive. 1:40:54.060 --> 1:40:56.480 And I don't think there was any reason to have 1:40:56.660 --> 1:40:59.780 asked her about her stance on trans women in sports 1:40:59.880 --> 1:41:04.130 because she, before this profile, we could have maybe guessed 1:41:04.350 --> 1:41:08.830 where she stood based on some likes and retweets of 1:41:08.970 --> 1:41:11.610 things about protecting women and girls, but nothing was overt. 1:41:11.760 --> 1:41:15.260 She had not been overt enough that it actually, to me, again, 1:41:15.360 --> 1:41:17.880 as the journalist writing this story, I wouldn't have asked 1:41:17.920 --> 1:41:20.940 her about it because to me, it wasn't significant enough 1:41:21.840 --> 1:41:23.580 in what she had said. It isn't a thing I 1:41:23.620 --> 1:41:25.519 would have even wanted to try to have her clarify. 1:41:25.560 --> 1:41:28.070 So it seems to me either she brought it up 1:41:28.150 --> 1:41:30.290 or she was deliberately asked about it and given the 1:41:30.330 --> 1:41:31.950 opportunity to make these comments. 1:41:32.470 --> 1:41:34.210 Yeah, and I guess this is an important part of 1:41:34.229 --> 1:41:36.330 the pivot because kind of before this story, she was 1:41:36.390 --> 1:41:40.849 just a racist. Like, that was her lane, was just. 1:41:40.710 --> 1:41:41.670 Being a racist. 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:46.720 Let's get into her doing the transphobia pivot, which was 1:41:46.780 --> 1:41:49.800 kind of arc two. Well, okay, I'm saying pivot here. 1:41:50.100 --> 1:41:54.120 It's not like she's not still doing, like, racist stuff, but. 1:41:54.220 --> 1:41:55.650 The transphobia, yes, they are. 1:41:56.000 --> 1:41:58.800 It's yes and, and I think actually, if we talk 1:41:58.840 --> 1:42:01.580 about transphobia as being rooted in white supremacy, they're really 1:42:01.620 --> 1:42:03.519 two sides of the same coin here, because at the 1:42:03.590 --> 1:42:08.030 end of the day, what's actually happening is conversations around 1:42:08.510 --> 1:42:12.090 who is an acceptable definition of a woman, whether it's 1:42:12.410 --> 1:42:16.389 the black masculine women she's playing against and bullying, or 1:42:16.450 --> 1:42:18.510 the trans women and girls that she's speaking out against. 1:42:18.630 --> 1:42:21.950 So I'd say, eh, two sides of the same coin. 1:42:22.250 --> 1:42:23.650 I think that's a fair way to sum it up. 1:42:24.260 --> 1:42:27.240 I'm realizing now we probably should have mentioned this at 1:42:27.260 --> 1:42:29.080 the beginning for people who have not seen her, but 1:42:29.120 --> 1:42:32.080 like Sophie Cunningham looks like the kind of person you 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:34.260 would have seen on like, I don't actually know who 1:42:34.280 --> 1:42:38.370 did the like positive propaganda for the Nazis, but like what, like, 1:42:38.430 --> 1:42:40.030 I don't know, like, like if you're doing, if you're 1:42:40.050 --> 1:42:42.469 doing like a dare story, like, yeah. 1:42:42.510 --> 1:42:44.790 Lenny Riefenstahl would have loved her. 1:42:45.090 --> 1:42:45.330 Yeah. 1:42:45.370 --> 1:42:45.710 Yeah. 1:42:45.729 --> 1:42:48.439 Like Lenny Riefenstahl, like recruitment ad thing. Like she is 1:42:48.479 --> 1:42:50.040 like the person you would put on that. 1:42:50.780 --> 1:42:53.740 Yeah, well, she's now had more gender-affirming care than most 1:42:53.760 --> 1:42:55.610 dolls could ever dream of having, so. 1:42:56.810 --> 1:43:00.490 Oh, also that, also that. They want to be quacky 1:43:00.530 --> 1:43:05.230 so bad, it's crazy. Like, there's something psychosexual rooted in, like, 1:43:05.550 --> 1:43:07.760 Mar-a-Lago face, I swear to God. 1:43:10.580 --> 1:43:15.020 Yeah, so let's talk about, kind of, the arc of 1:43:15.400 --> 1:43:21.410 Sophie Cunningham as anti-transmedia. person because she initially leans like 1:43:21.710 --> 1:43:23.160 all the way the fuck into it. 1:43:23.810 --> 1:43:27.750 Yeah, Sophie leans into it. But what happens pretty quickly 1:43:27.850 --> 1:43:31.380 is that right wing media picks it up, it kind 1:43:31.400 --> 1:43:35.380 of gets news aggregated everywhere. And then she doubles down 1:43:35.400 --> 1:43:38.540 in press conferences and starts to kind of say, I 1:43:38.580 --> 1:43:39.939 said what I said, essentially. 1:43:39.960 --> 1:43:40.850 And I. 1:43:43.150 --> 1:43:46.150 Should have the ability to, you know, say what I believe. 1:43:46.630 --> 1:43:49.679 And once she doubles down in the press conference, that's 1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:54.200 when you start to see the rallies happening, anti-trans rallies 1:43:54.340 --> 1:43:56.360 outside because the fever is on a road trip now. 1:43:56.500 --> 1:44:02.099 And so, and every city they visit, anti-trans groups start 1:44:02.120 --> 1:44:05.960 showing up, whether it's, you know, to promote their bill for, 1:44:06.100 --> 1:44:09.400 you know, children having general exams to play sports or 1:44:09.720 --> 1:44:12.920 whatever else they're there to do. But some of the 1:44:12.939 --> 1:44:16.300 more high-profile anti-trans groups starts to show up, and that's, 1:44:16.360 --> 1:44:19.660 I think, when it devolves. 1:44:20.010 --> 1:44:20.330 Yeah. 1:44:20.470 --> 1:44:20.870 Yeah. 1:44:21.010 --> 1:44:24.769 I guess we have ahead of us the branching path of, 1:44:25.410 --> 1:44:27.309 should we talk about the devolution, or should we talk 1:44:27.350 --> 1:44:29.590 about her brief attempt to pivot back to basketball? 1:44:30.030 --> 1:44:35.479 Well, I guess what I think is really notable is 1:44:35.700 --> 1:44:40.140 that the group that really shows up, and I think 1:44:40.600 --> 1:44:42.540 where there starts to be some controversy is a group 1:44:42.560 --> 1:44:46.280 called XXXY Athletics that was started by a woman named 1:44:46.320 --> 1:44:50.150 Jennifer Say. And I think that mainstream people do not 1:44:50.280 --> 1:44:55.110 know who this group is. And basically their whole thing 1:44:55.189 --> 1:44:59.170 is that they pay cis girls to protest sporting events 1:44:59.270 --> 1:45:01.729 where they might have to compete against a trans girl. 1:45:02.430 --> 1:45:06.850 And then that protest creates media and controversy. So they 1:45:06.910 --> 1:45:11.610 literally are like paying people to create these controversies. And 1:45:11.710 --> 1:45:14.470 they showed up and they paid two girls to sit 1:45:14.510 --> 1:45:16.770 in the front row at the game against the storm 1:45:17.210 --> 1:45:20.729 with signs thanking Sophie and a storm owner got upset 1:45:21.470 --> 1:45:24.170 and cursed them out. And the storm owner got suspended 1:45:24.750 --> 1:45:27.950 and the transphobes got an apology. And so this I 1:45:27.990 --> 1:45:32.080 think is also where the WNBA now had an opportunity 1:45:32.160 --> 1:45:35.100 to do something and they took the wrong side. And 1:45:35.520 --> 1:45:38.870 so The thing to me that is really notable is 1:45:38.910 --> 1:45:41.490 that the specific group and then Riley Gaines, you know, 1:45:41.530 --> 1:45:43.970 noted fifth place swimmer Riley Gaines shows up. 1:45:44.189 --> 1:45:44.910 Oh my God. 1:45:44.990 --> 1:45:49.019 And once that happens, it's kind of, it's out of control. 1:45:49.060 --> 1:45:51.840 But I think what sucks as someone who's been covering 1:45:51.860 --> 1:45:54.020 this for so long is there are certain names that 1:45:54.060 --> 1:45:56.679 when I see them, I know the playbook. I know 1:45:56.920 --> 1:45:59.549 what's happening. I know what's coming and I'm prepared for it. 1:45:59.880 --> 1:46:02.060 And no one in media was prepared for it. And 1:46:02.100 --> 1:46:05.740 they have failed to identify anyone. people in XXXY shirts 1:46:05.780 --> 1:46:08.080 in the front row of, you know, a basketball game 1:46:08.420 --> 1:46:12.770 as wearing hate symbols. They have failed to state that, like, 1:46:13.010 --> 1:46:15.410 trans people are being genocided by the government, and it 1:46:15.470 --> 1:46:18.229 has turned this entire thing into, like, a we can 1:46:18.250 --> 1:46:22.050 agree to disagree. And so I feel like that's kind 1:46:22.150 --> 1:46:24.769 of the missing piece here, right? 1:46:25.350 --> 1:46:28.770 Yeah, no, it is just, like, an abject failure to do, like, 1:46:28.910 --> 1:46:33.189 an iota of research on, like, who these folks are. 1:46:34.110 --> 1:46:39.080 So following the event with the storm, Coach getting penalized 1:46:39.160 --> 1:46:44.380 for being a normal person, the WNBA's statement pissed me 1:46:44.479 --> 1:46:48.450 off so hard because it's like, we're having hard conversations, 1:46:48.810 --> 1:46:53.030 thinking about a lot of things. And there has never 1:46:53.130 --> 1:46:57.259 been a trans woman competing in the WNBA. There are 1:46:57.270 --> 1:47:01.380 no trans athletes who are likely to be competing in 1:47:01.400 --> 1:47:07.220 the WNBA anytime soon. This is such a hypothetical non-issue. 1:47:08.140 --> 1:47:12.420 This shouldn't be a hard conversation to have. Just take 1:47:12.580 --> 1:47:15.599 us stance. Even if you fuck up, take us stance. 1:47:15.700 --> 1:47:16.479 I swear to God. 1:47:16.500 --> 1:47:16.580 Yeah. 1:47:17.020 --> 1:47:21.210 And not only is it a non-issue at this point, 1:47:21.570 --> 1:47:24.210 we have people saying, well, we can have hard conversations 1:47:24.270 --> 1:47:26.439 and agree to disagree. And I'm like, who gave a 1:47:26.479 --> 1:47:29.640 bunch of cis people permission to disagree about a group 1:47:29.680 --> 1:47:32.849 that they are not part of and policies that actively 1:47:32.990 --> 1:47:36.010 do not affect them? And the other piece that the 1:47:36.050 --> 1:47:37.970 media doesn't do is like, okay, we can agree to 1:47:38.010 --> 1:47:41.689 disagree or we have two different opinions. What are those opinions? Like, 1:47:41.930 --> 1:47:45.229 one group wants human rights, basic human rights, and to 1:47:45.260 --> 1:47:48.620 be included in society. And the other group wants, at best, 1:47:48.840 --> 1:47:50.860 for a group of people to, like, not exist, and 1:47:50.900 --> 1:47:52.059 at worst, to die. 1:47:52.100 --> 1:47:52.360 Yeah. 1:47:52.439 --> 1:47:55.559 The fact that we're in a genocide, like, by our government, 1:47:55.880 --> 1:47:59.540 and nobody will name that. And this is, that's so frustrating. 1:47:59.600 --> 1:48:01.280 These are the stakes here, right? 1:48:01.300 --> 1:48:02.280 Yeah. Right. 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:06.040 This is a microcosm for all of it. And it's 1:48:06.080 --> 1:48:09.470 just like you're saying, agree to disagree on what? What 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:13.090 are you disagreeing with? Let's say that the WNBA takes 1:48:13.150 --> 1:48:18.350 the radical stance of implementing the former standards that the 1:48:18.490 --> 1:48:23.610 International Olympic Committee, had up until fairly recently regarding trans athletes, 1:48:24.130 --> 1:48:27.970 which necessitated like two years of hormone therapy. before a 1:48:28.010 --> 1:48:32.189 trans woman could compete. And just on a personal stance, 1:48:32.250 --> 1:48:35.090 I'm like, I don't like setting hard boundaries for when 1:48:35.130 --> 1:48:38.290 trans people can exist. But that aside, having just a 1:48:38.729 --> 1:48:44.019 baseline policy that will not impact a single player currently 1:48:44.310 --> 1:48:48.040 involved in the WNBA, that's so bare bones. That is 1:48:48.060 --> 1:48:51.320 the easiest thing to do because it functionally changes nothing 1:48:51.740 --> 1:48:52.380 on the day to day. 1:48:52.880 --> 1:48:58.139 I do think the WNBA needs to be careful because 1:48:58.340 --> 1:49:02.150 we've seen like the policy you're talking about wouldn't impact anybody. 1:49:02.320 --> 1:49:04.510 And whether I agree that they should have a policy, 1:49:04.530 --> 1:49:06.050 I mean, you know, I don't really think anyone should 1:49:06.210 --> 1:49:07.790 have these policies. 1:49:07.850 --> 1:49:08.270 No, no, no. 1:49:08.570 --> 1:49:09.850 I agree. I agree with that. 1:49:09.950 --> 1:49:12.990 But I see your point. I think my concern becomes 1:49:13.050 --> 1:49:17.150 we've seen how chromosome testing and some of these other 1:49:17.189 --> 1:49:20.780 forms of sex testing are happening above the WNBA and 1:49:20.880 --> 1:49:23.420 often in the, you know, the International Olympic Committee and everything. 1:49:23.740 --> 1:49:24.340 Oh my God. 1:49:24.400 --> 1:49:24.839 Yeah. 1:49:25.120 --> 1:49:27.700 And often, right, that trickles down. And I think something 1:49:27.720 --> 1:49:30.620 the WNBA needs to be very careful about and cognizant of, 1:49:30.939 --> 1:49:33.750 the people who are most directly impacted by these sex 1:49:33.790 --> 1:49:36.530 testing policies, there's no trans women in the WNBA and 1:49:36.590 --> 1:49:40.450 they won't be impacted. But, you know, Black women in 1:49:40.490 --> 1:49:45.130 particular are so often that directly impacted the population like 1:49:45.170 --> 1:49:48.400 the league the WNBA is actually full of people who 1:49:48.439 --> 1:49:50.780 are directly impacted by a lot of the policies that 1:49:50.800 --> 1:49:53.700 we're talking around even though they're not trans and so 1:49:53.760 --> 1:49:56.820 it's a very slippery slope that I like I hope 1:49:56.860 --> 1:49:59.160 they get right in this moment because if they go 1:49:59.200 --> 1:50:01.320 too far in the other direction it will be a 1:50:01.420 --> 1:50:02.799 mess in like. 1:50:02.560 --> 1:50:06.710 12 ways Oh yeah, no, and I'm not actually advocating 1:50:06.750 --> 1:50:10.200 for them to implement a policy like that. I'm just like, 1:50:10.520 --> 1:50:14.000 for me, having any policy, just to shut up like 1:50:14.040 --> 1:50:17.220 the couple of former NBA yahoos who are like, I'm 1:50:17.240 --> 1:50:19.480 going to go be a woman now. And I'm like, well, 1:50:19.560 --> 1:50:20.690 you can go shut up. 1:50:20.970 --> 1:50:21.210 Yeah. 1:50:21.250 --> 1:50:23.710 Oh no, I didn't think you were advocating for that. 1:50:23.790 --> 1:50:26.669 I think just because we can see how sex testing 1:50:26.750 --> 1:50:30.700 is going elsewhere, I think sometimes people forget. 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:35.480 No, I remember Caster Semenya. Like, don't worry. I, like, 1:50:35.830 --> 1:50:40.370 absolutely do not want to see that shit happen. 1:50:40.410 --> 1:50:43.950 Yeah, and but mainstream, like, whether mainstream people or, like, 1:50:43.990 --> 1:50:46.970 mainstream media or just, like, cis people in general, they don't, like, 1:50:46.990 --> 1:50:48.770 there's so many nuances here, too. 1:50:49.010 --> 1:50:49.650 Yes. 1:50:49.800 --> 1:50:52.540 They get completely missed and everything gets flattened and then 1:50:52.620 --> 1:50:54.680 it becomes more well, we'll just put this policy in 1:50:54.720 --> 1:50:57.060 place and then, you know, people don't think about that 1:50:57.100 --> 1:50:59.120 it's a whole different, you know, can of worms. 1:50:59.560 --> 1:51:02.700 Yeah. The fact that they had no policy before any 1:51:02.740 --> 1:51:05.940 of this came into being, it's kind of what I 1:51:05.960 --> 1:51:07.640 think led this to be the perfect storm. 1:51:07.880 --> 1:51:08.150 Yeah. 1:51:08.729 --> 1:51:15.090 Because, like, with it being such a blank slate for grifters, 1:51:15.170 --> 1:51:19.810 bad actors, and even just super misinformed folks who don't 1:51:19.850 --> 1:51:22.850 really know what's going on, like, to kind of project 1:51:23.470 --> 1:51:28.059 and or manipulate the situation, there is not a clean, 1:51:28.439 --> 1:51:29.400 quick answer. 1:51:29.960 --> 1:51:31.900 There's not. And I will say a lot of leagues, 1:51:32.060 --> 1:51:34.360 I think, are trying not to put policies in place 1:51:34.540 --> 1:51:36.400 right now if they don't already have one, because if 1:51:36.439 --> 1:51:39.389 there's no policy, there's nothing to violate. And I think 1:51:39.430 --> 1:51:41.410 they hoped they could fly under the radar. I know 1:51:41.450 --> 1:51:43.410 that a lot of trans advocates in this space are 1:51:43.510 --> 1:51:46.969 actually you know, behind the scenes kind of suggesting that 1:51:47.090 --> 1:51:49.050 as well, kind of wait, wait it out a little 1:51:49.070 --> 1:51:51.770 bit because without a policy, you hope you don't end 1:51:51.810 --> 1:51:54.860 up on the radar of the Trump administration or whoever else. 1:51:55.000 --> 1:51:59.020 Obviously that has not been what happened here at all. Unfortunately. 1:51:59.040 --> 1:52:03.720 I want to talk a little bit about the weird 1:52:03.939 --> 1:52:08.800 shit where like Ennis Cantor freedom, who's like a former 1:52:08.880 --> 1:52:14.160 sort of NBA washout turds, like right wing, culture war 1:52:14.200 --> 1:52:19.260 guy him and like Royce White and apparently some other 1:52:19.560 --> 1:52:24.849 just absolute fail sons of the MNBA they're like oh 1:52:24.860 --> 1:52:27.669 we're going to declare for the for the 2027 draft 1:52:28.130 --> 1:52:32.170 and I think that that in some ways I think 1:52:32.229 --> 1:52:36.490 is actually a really clarifying thing for what the question 1:52:36.650 --> 1:52:39.130 of can trans women play women's sports is actually about. 1:52:39.490 --> 1:52:40.950 And I think this is the thing that the media 1:52:40.990 --> 1:52:45.150 has really not understood because, you know, some of it, 1:52:45.150 --> 1:52:49.420 I think, is just transmisogyny, right? Like, they don't actually 1:52:49.640 --> 1:52:53.820 really think that trans women are women. But, like, the 1:52:53.960 --> 1:52:58.380 argument over can trans women play women's sports, if you 1:52:58.479 --> 1:53:01.930 listen to how people like Sophie Cunningham frame it, and 1:53:02.090 --> 1:53:06.810 this has spread everywhere, throughout even parts of the Democratic Party, 1:53:06.850 --> 1:53:09.610 where you get people talking about, like, well, should young 1:53:09.710 --> 1:53:13.450 girls be playing against men? And that's the actual argument here. 1:53:13.910 --> 1:53:16.850 The stakes of this argument is not about sports. It's, 1:53:17.280 --> 1:53:20.280 are trans women women, or are we not? And if 1:53:20.320 --> 1:53:23.200 we're not, then it becomes sort of de facto legitimate 1:53:23.240 --> 1:53:26.500 to impose, you know, all of the segregation policies that 1:53:26.520 --> 1:53:29.080 they've been putting in place, all of the, you know, 1:53:29.100 --> 1:53:30.700 and when I say they've been putting in place, I'm 1:53:30.720 --> 1:53:32.620 not talking about even sports leagues, I'm talking about, like, 1:53:32.660 --> 1:53:33.500 the federal government. 1:53:34.220 --> 1:53:34.440 Right? 1:53:34.740 --> 1:53:35.000 Right. 1:53:35.900 --> 1:53:39.380 And a bunch of state governments, the Catholic Church... you know, 1:53:39.439 --> 1:53:42.960 in terms of gender affirming care bans, that's the actual 1:53:43.160 --> 1:53:47.519 stakes of this is like, are we women or not? 1:53:48.090 --> 1:53:51.290 And the moment you go, no, you're not, you're like 1:53:51.410 --> 1:53:53.769 some other kind of thing where like, maybe we'll let 1:53:53.810 --> 1:53:55.850 you do this eventually at some point, you start getting 1:53:55.910 --> 1:53:59.189 people making, you know, we listen to these people being like, well, 1:53:59.229 --> 1:54:02.010 the leagues can decide individually, like league by league, who 1:54:02.030 --> 1:54:05.530 they think is like legitimately qualified to play. And it's like, okay, 1:54:05.610 --> 1:54:06.970 this is an argument for segregation. 1:54:07.110 --> 1:54:07.339 Yeah. 1:54:07.850 --> 1:54:11.260 Right? This is explicitly an argument that is, leagues should 1:54:11.300 --> 1:54:14.160 be allowed to segregate players. And that's also the whole, like, oh, 1:54:14.180 --> 1:54:16.160 why don't trans people go start their own league? It's like, 1:54:16.780 --> 1:54:17.340 we had this. 1:54:17.479 --> 1:54:18.240 It was segregation. 1:54:18.600 --> 1:54:21.020 It's this thing that's, like, infuriating. It just doesn't click. 1:54:21.680 --> 1:54:23.479 That's what the goal is here. 1:54:24.100 --> 1:54:24.360 Right? 1:54:24.680 --> 1:54:28.460 I think what makes, like, trans women in sports such 1:54:28.479 --> 1:54:32.700 a potent, like, rallying point, it's preying on so many 1:54:32.900 --> 1:54:37.780 axes of Not just like putting young girls in danger, 1:54:37.820 --> 1:54:41.270 but also like I can like there's an economic component 1:54:41.310 --> 1:54:43.990 to because like so many people get involved in sports 1:54:44.190 --> 1:54:47.590 as kids so that they're able to get college scholarships. 1:54:48.270 --> 1:54:48.550 Right. 1:54:49.250 --> 1:54:51.810 And so like it's just it becomes this thing all 1:54:51.830 --> 1:54:52.390 the way down. 1:54:52.690 --> 1:54:52.890 Yeah. 1:54:53.320 --> 1:54:57.290 But, like, it's this situation where by saying that this 1:54:57.370 --> 1:55:00.910 boy could be on the girls' team, that is implicitly 1:55:00.970 --> 1:55:04.370 signaling this notion that this boy is going to get 1:55:04.530 --> 1:55:08.090 all of the college scholarships. Or this trans woman who 1:55:08.110 --> 1:55:10.070 we're framing as a boy on the girls' team because, 1:55:10.350 --> 1:55:15.060 God forbid, they be normal for 10 seconds. And aside 1:55:15.080 --> 1:55:18.640 from everything else, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of how 1:55:18.680 --> 1:55:23.169 much money there isn't in like women's college sports programs 1:55:23.210 --> 1:55:26.270 or even like women's professional sports. There is not a 1:55:26.370 --> 1:55:31.900 single trans athlete who was transitioning for that good, good money. 1:55:32.190 --> 1:55:34.260 No, it's never, never happened. Yeah. 1:55:34.700 --> 1:55:36.620 That is literally never happened. 1:55:37.140 --> 1:55:39.600 Like, even if you were to transition to play in 1:55:39.620 --> 1:55:42.480 the WNBA, it's like, great, you're making you're making as 1:55:42.540 --> 1:55:45.280 much money as like, I don't know, if you're the 1:55:45.320 --> 1:55:47.540 best player in the league, you might be making as 1:55:47.620 --> 1:55:50.690 much money as like a practice team guy on like 1:55:50.740 --> 1:55:51.630 an NFL team. 1:55:51.650 --> 1:55:52.370 Well, like. 1:55:52.820 --> 1:55:55.150 If you're transitioning so that you can play women's sports, 1:55:55.190 --> 1:55:57.310 something tells me you just needed an excuse and you 1:55:57.350 --> 1:55:59.170 wanted to transition anyway. 1:55:59.690 --> 1:56:04.670 Also that, like, if you start, okay, actually, actually, if 1:56:04.750 --> 1:56:07.980 you start transitioning as a bit so you can dominate 1:56:08.060 --> 1:56:11.060 women's sports, call me. I want to have you on 1:56:11.280 --> 1:56:12.700 my podcast. 1:56:13.000 --> 1:56:14.160 Truly commitment to the bit. 1:56:14.180 --> 1:56:16.200 It's like, obviously, like, none of the people who are 1:56:16.240 --> 1:56:19.140 doing this are ever going to like do any kind 1:56:19.180 --> 1:56:20.540 of even vaguely transitioning thing. 1:56:20.600 --> 1:56:20.880 No. 1:56:21.200 --> 1:56:24.520 The closest thing I've seen to this, the actress who 1:56:24.540 --> 1:56:25.420 did She's the Man. 1:56:25.440 --> 1:56:26.800 Amanda Bynes. 1:56:27.300 --> 1:56:29.240 Yeah, like talked about it in an interview one time 1:56:29.270 --> 1:56:31.770 that like having to like pretend to be a guy 1:56:31.850 --> 1:56:34.370 gave her, like she didn't have the words gender dysphoria, 1:56:34.410 --> 1:56:36.690 but if you read her describing it, it's like, oh no, 1:56:36.790 --> 1:56:37.790 she got gender dysphoria. 1:56:37.890 --> 1:56:40.590 No, she totally talked about having gender dysphoria. Yeah. 1:56:40.810 --> 1:56:41.010 Yeah. 1:56:41.570 --> 1:56:41.930 Yeah. 1:56:42.210 --> 1:56:45.870 Yeah, like, it's very genuinely, again, like, if this is 1:56:45.890 --> 1:56:48.570 the push that you need to start playing with your gender, 1:56:48.630 --> 1:56:50.890 because for some reason you just really want to play 1:56:50.930 --> 1:56:54.140 on the women's teams. Like, baby girl. 1:56:54.150 --> 1:56:56.120 DIY HRT. 1:56:56.400 --> 1:56:56.680 Yeah. 1:56:57.400 --> 1:56:57.740 Yeah. 1:56:58.180 --> 1:57:02.380 It's just this, like, right-wing protect-the-children fantasy that they're using 1:57:02.460 --> 1:57:05.300 as the justification for, you know, like, this is the 1:57:05.340 --> 1:57:07.780 wedge issue that they use to push all of the 1:57:07.820 --> 1:57:10.140 rest of their stuff. And if you go back to, like, 1:57:10.720 --> 1:57:13.260 the Daily Wire people who were instrumental in getting a 1:57:13.320 --> 1:57:16.980 bunch of the anti-trans bills passed under the Biden administration, 1:57:17.520 --> 1:57:19.550 before they kind of blew up their company trying to 1:57:19.560 --> 1:57:20.430 make Pendragon. 1:57:21.530 --> 1:57:24.070 They're thankfully in their flop era right now. Yeah. 1:57:24.430 --> 1:57:26.430 But back when they were doing this, you would listen 1:57:26.450 --> 1:57:28.830 to them talk about how we need to eradicate transgenderism, 1:57:28.870 --> 1:57:33.770 because that was the actual goal. It was never about sports. 1:57:34.240 --> 1:57:37.340 It was about eradicating us yeah the second. 1:57:37.060 --> 1:57:40.590 They're allowed to speak yes that's when the mask comes 1:57:40.730 --> 1:57:42.430 off and yeah. 1:57:42.910 --> 1:57:46.650 And I think the piece about the trans misogyny that 1:57:47.090 --> 1:57:49.250 I think sometimes gets missed too is we can look 1:57:49.290 --> 1:57:52.720 at somebody like Jennifer Say who you know runs the 1:57:52.820 --> 1:57:56.160 XXXY athletics and she in addition to someone like Nancy 1:57:56.180 --> 1:58:00.419 Hogshead who was an Olympic swimmer who started the women's 1:58:00.440 --> 1:58:03.680 sports policy working group with Martina Navratilova similar kind of 1:58:03.920 --> 1:58:06.960 group trying to not allow trans women and girls to 1:58:06.980 --> 1:58:10.660 play sports with girls. These are people who actually made 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:16.820 their post-athletic kind of names as advocates against sexual abuse 1:58:17.000 --> 1:58:20.839 in sport. They'd both been victims of adult male coaches. 1:58:21.310 --> 1:58:25.260 This is where that really insidious, turfy kind of when 1:58:25.300 --> 1:58:28.660 you paint trans women as men. Again, the problem is 1:58:29.100 --> 1:58:32.660 still men, right? And so these are people who were 1:58:32.720 --> 1:58:37.140 known as feminist advocates in the space before making the 1:58:37.200 --> 1:58:41.360 anti-trans pivot. And I think that sometimes that piece gets 1:58:41.440 --> 1:58:45.300 missed too in the very insidious way that framing trans 1:58:45.320 --> 1:58:48.550 women as men is. actually can make some of these 1:58:48.770 --> 1:58:52.970 target points of making them seem like threats appealing or 1:58:53.030 --> 1:58:58.270 make sense to maybe feminists, quote-unquote, like Jennifer Say or 1:58:58.300 --> 1:58:59.120 Nancy Hong said. 1:58:59.420 --> 1:59:01.120 You know, this has been a thing that's been happening 1:59:01.220 --> 1:59:05.180 back down to, like, the original TERFs, right? Like, the original, like, 1:59:05.740 --> 1:59:09.050 transphobic wing of the radical feminists, where, like, if you 1:59:09.060 --> 1:59:11.830 look at how this played out during the porn wars, too, 1:59:11.910 --> 1:59:16.120 one of the fundamental... issues with organizing as any kind 1:59:16.160 --> 1:59:19.320 of marginalized group is that, you know, there's always going 1:59:19.340 --> 1:59:21.700 to be people inside of your marginalized group who you 1:59:21.740 --> 1:59:24.540 don't agree with. And there can become a point where 1:59:24.580 --> 1:59:29.120 the incentive to, instead of trying to like fight or 1:59:29.160 --> 1:59:32.620 directly like have conflict with the actual group that is 1:59:32.690 --> 1:59:35.250 oppressing you, right? Where it's like, yeah, if you're doing 1:59:35.290 --> 1:59:37.970 women's sports, the group that is oppressing you is like 1:59:38.190 --> 1:59:40.890 the men who are abusing you, right? You can look 1:59:40.910 --> 1:59:42.930 at this in sort of the class context, right? Where 1:59:43.580 --> 1:59:45.460 you know, like, yeah, if you were a worker, like 1:59:45.500 --> 1:59:48.140 you were being oppressed by the actual ruling class, which 1:59:48.200 --> 1:59:50.380 is the capitalist class that owns the means of production. 1:59:51.280 --> 1:59:53.880 But there becomes a point where it's easier to try 1:59:53.900 --> 1:59:56.400 to police the behavior of your own than it is 1:59:56.440 --> 1:59:58.610 to fight the dominant group. And this is, you know, 1:59:58.630 --> 2:00:00.450 I'm taking this on a little bit of a tangent here, 2:00:00.470 --> 2:00:04.270 but like, if you've ever heard the term like the lumpenproletariat, 2:00:04.750 --> 2:00:07.270 it's just this term that I know there are going 2:00:07.290 --> 2:00:08.730 to be some people in the audience who are very 2:00:08.770 --> 2:00:12.070 attached to that term as like a self-referential thing. But 2:00:12.130 --> 2:00:14.070 it's supposed to be this, like, part of the working 2:00:14.110 --> 2:00:17.810 class that's, like, drifters and vagrants and, like, Marx goes 2:00:17.870 --> 2:00:21.530 on this, like, really sort of, like, blood-curdling rants about, like, 2:00:21.770 --> 2:00:26.540 organ grinders and, like, pimps and, like, runaway soldiers and, like, 2:00:27.220 --> 2:00:29.840 all of the, like, boot shiners on the street and, like, 2:00:29.940 --> 2:00:31.680 all of these groups of people who have nothing to 2:00:31.720 --> 2:00:34.720 do with each other from, like, a sociological class sense. Like, 2:00:35.120 --> 2:00:38.060 there is, like, absolutely nothing in common that, like, someone 2:00:38.080 --> 2:00:40.430 who polishes boots on the street has in common with, like, 2:00:40.810 --> 2:00:43.520 someone who's, like, run away from being a soldier. But 2:00:43.640 --> 2:00:46.080 this is, like, Marx's, you know, there's this thing in 2:00:46.100 --> 2:00:48.860 the journal Endnotes about this. This is, like, Marx's disgust, 2:00:49.360 --> 2:00:52.390 specifically at, like, the Victorian disgust about, like, this part 2:00:52.430 --> 2:00:54.510 of the class that he thinks is, like, lowly or whatever. 2:00:55.330 --> 2:00:58.610 And Marx just, like, goes off on these people. And 2:00:58.650 --> 2:01:00.390 this has been a thing for a really long time of, like, 2:01:00.570 --> 2:01:03.900 the working class movement trying to, like, purify itself of these, like, 2:01:04.620 --> 2:01:08.600 lumpen elements who are supposed to be, like, anarchists and, like, unpure. 2:01:09.190 --> 2:01:10.670 And you get this in the feminist movement where, like, 2:01:10.870 --> 2:01:13.130 in the feminist movement, like, that was us. That was 2:01:13.150 --> 2:01:15.730 trans women. We were, like, the elements that was, like, 2:01:15.770 --> 2:01:19.010 the easiest to, you know, you could be, like, well, 2:01:19.030 --> 2:01:21.110 all these trans women are actually men and they're trying to, like, 2:01:21.170 --> 2:01:23.470 infiltrate our spaces. And you can spend all of your 2:01:23.530 --> 2:01:27.150 energy trying to purify your own movement against this other 2:01:27.170 --> 2:01:29.480 group of people who are inside of your movement instead 2:01:29.500 --> 2:01:32.940 of actually like fighting the outside and also you'll be 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:34.000 rewarded for it you're. 2:01:33.880 --> 2:01:36.040 Doing the patriarchy's work for them. 2:01:36.040 --> 2:01:39.140 Yeah and they'll pay you for it instead of fighting you. 2:01:39.460 --> 2:01:41.730 Right by pitting cis women and trans women against each 2:01:41.770 --> 2:01:44.390 other they fight each other instead of realizing that their 2:01:44.430 --> 2:01:47.770 struggles are tied up together and you know fight the 2:01:47.790 --> 2:01:50.870 patriarchy together Yeah, right? 2:01:51.090 --> 2:01:54.350 Like, literally, like, trans access to healthcare is going to 2:01:54.390 --> 2:01:58.700 help everyone else, too. It's that simple. Yeah. 2:01:59.220 --> 2:02:04.400 There's, like, an unbelievable number of, like, reproductive healthcare organizing, like, 2:02:04.600 --> 2:02:05.500 are trans people. 2:02:05.520 --> 2:02:05.900 Yeah. 2:02:05.940 --> 2:02:08.700 Like, it's a bunch of trans fans. And also trans fans, too. Like, 2:02:08.980 --> 2:02:11.570 it's like, you know, these are struggles that are intimately 2:02:11.610 --> 2:02:14.070 bound up. From an external perspective, if you can pit 2:02:14.090 --> 2:02:15.630 these two groups against each other, and then from an 2:02:15.690 --> 2:02:19.320 internal perspective, if you can, you know... convince one of 2:02:19.360 --> 2:02:21.140 these groups that the reason they're being oppressed is the 2:02:21.220 --> 2:02:23.530 other one and channel them into this path of least 2:02:23.570 --> 2:02:27.230 resistance where you can nominally be doing what you think 2:02:27.290 --> 2:02:29.430 is like radicalism to like free your people but is 2:02:29.510 --> 2:02:32.190 actually just like fucking over another group of people in 2:02:32.230 --> 2:02:35.020 service of the ruling class you can do genocides and 2:02:35.060 --> 2:02:50.950 here we are yep yeah and here we are So 2:02:50.970 --> 2:02:52.850 there's a couple more things I wanted to touch on. 2:02:52.870 --> 2:02:55.930 One of which, and I think Bugs, you have an 2:02:55.950 --> 2:02:58.610 interesting perspective on this, is that like, it didn't used 2:02:58.730 --> 2:03:01.310 to be like this for trans athletes. 2:03:01.690 --> 2:03:06.620 It literally didn't used to be like this. So yeah, like, 2:03:06.640 --> 2:03:09.680 I mean, I'm the very funny camp of having been 2:03:10.180 --> 2:03:14.080 a college athlete, having competed on both the men's and 2:03:14.200 --> 2:03:18.400 women's teams for track, albeit this would have been like, 2:03:18.460 --> 2:03:22.970 you know, small potatoes, D3, everything. But it was such 2:03:22.990 --> 2:03:26.010 a non-issue for me to this. So this would have 2:03:26.030 --> 2:03:28.470 been like end terms. I'm not going to give like 2:03:28.530 --> 2:03:32.570 firm dates, but like, you know, end of the Obama era, 2:03:32.610 --> 2:03:37.940 beginning of the Trump era, roundabouts, like mid tens. And 2:03:37.950 --> 2:03:43.280 I never faced any pushback to myself from either like 2:03:43.300 --> 2:03:46.660 my teammates or anyone that I competed against. I ran 2:03:46.700 --> 2:03:49.260 track and it I mean, it was kind of like 2:03:49.460 --> 2:03:51.540 eye opening because I was expecting it to be like 2:03:51.640 --> 2:03:54.720 much shittier. But like, no, like it was just people 2:03:54.760 --> 2:03:56.970 were just normal. And I mean, I think this is 2:03:57.030 --> 2:03:59.390 also just kind of thinking about the ways in which 2:03:59.430 --> 2:04:02.310 like transphobia writ large has become so many people's like 2:04:02.330 --> 2:04:07.690 pet little bigotry situation because they want to. They want 2:04:07.710 --> 2:04:10.630 to oppress someone. And it's so, so, so easy to 2:04:10.670 --> 2:04:17.260 go after the trans. But yeah, like I managed to 2:04:17.300 --> 2:04:22.240 compete at a fairly high level within D3 as a 2:04:22.260 --> 2:04:27.760 trans woman. And I like genuinely was terrified for like, 2:04:28.600 --> 2:04:33.140 I competed in nationals and for like a week after 2:04:33.160 --> 2:04:36.580 I was like, and then someone's going to show up 2:04:36.680 --> 2:04:38.740 and people are going to like, I'm like, someone's going 2:04:38.760 --> 2:04:39.180 to write. 2:04:39.020 --> 2:04:40.000 An article about this. 2:04:41.580 --> 2:04:46.320 And no one did because I mean, I really don't 2:04:46.340 --> 2:04:49.040 want to bring like the politics of passing into this, 2:04:49.240 --> 2:04:51.700 but like that could have also played a factor at 2:04:52.420 --> 2:04:55.280 least when dealing with like betters. Like obviously everyone on 2:04:55.300 --> 2:04:58.730 my team was very aware because like, Even though I was, 2:04:58.810 --> 2:05:00.970 I was like very baby Tran running on the men's 2:05:01.010 --> 2:05:03.490 team because it was just like, well, I want to 2:05:03.510 --> 2:05:08.150 compete at the airbug rules. No one cares that the 2:05:08.190 --> 2:05:14.340 trans woman is smoking the men's team because she hadn't 2:05:14.380 --> 2:05:18.540 started hormones yet. But like, even within the context of that, like, 2:05:19.040 --> 2:05:21.480 and again, just getting back to what we said earlier, 2:05:21.620 --> 2:05:24.780 I do not think there is a simple or one 2:05:24.800 --> 2:05:29.060 size fits all policy for any sort of like hormonal requirement, 2:05:29.140 --> 2:05:33.440 because as we discussed, that is so right for abuse. 2:05:34.040 --> 2:05:37.050 But I can speak from personal experience in saying that 2:05:37.370 --> 2:05:39.830 after being on hormones for a period of time, the 2:05:40.170 --> 2:05:45.730 fastest 400 I ever ran as a woman was was 2:05:45.830 --> 2:05:52.020 slower than the slowest 400 I had ever run competitively 2:05:52.060 --> 2:05:55.120 in track dating back to my freshman year of high school. 2:05:55.840 --> 2:06:00.100 And so, like, if a trans woman's competing in sports, 2:06:00.960 --> 2:06:05.140 it's probably going to be fine. We have seen this 2:06:06.680 --> 2:06:10.040 over and over in the few instances where trans women 2:06:10.080 --> 2:06:13.930 have been allowed to compete. Like... Leah Thomas took fifth. 2:06:15.950 --> 2:06:18.690 Even in the moment, like I think before Riley Gaines 2:06:18.760 --> 2:06:26.200 became Riley Gaines, like that was still a nothing moment. Yeah. 2:06:26.240 --> 2:06:32.150 And I think it's funny because we can argue about 2:06:32.250 --> 2:06:35.010 this on a basis of like a human rights issue, 2:06:35.030 --> 2:06:37.930 which I think it fundamentally is and that should be enough. 2:06:38.430 --> 2:06:40.810 But then if you like people want to argue about 2:06:40.850 --> 2:06:43.740 the science, The science is also on our side. Like 2:06:43.780 --> 2:06:47.090 there's literally no evidence that there's an advantage. You talk 2:06:47.110 --> 2:06:49.470 to any trans woman who has been an athlete before 2:06:49.510 --> 2:06:52.230 and after transition, and she will tell you, I lost 2:06:52.350 --> 2:06:56.010 muscle mass. I lost bone density. I lost like lung capacity. 2:06:56.090 --> 2:06:58.270 Like I watched my times go down or my weight 2:06:58.310 --> 2:06:58.850 go down. 2:06:59.290 --> 2:07:02.520 Yeah. And it happens pretty fast or it happened fast 2:07:02.560 --> 2:07:05.000 for me. Like your mileage may vary, but. 2:07:05.420 --> 2:07:07.820 Well, my mileage is I started taking low dose tea. 2:07:07.860 --> 2:07:10.180 So I'm going to make the Olympics next year. Watch out. 2:07:11.100 --> 2:07:11.880 Oh, well done. 2:07:12.000 --> 2:07:13.120 Alright, alright, alright. 2:07:13.220 --> 2:07:15.400 I'm on testosterone now, so watch out. 2:07:17.880 --> 2:07:20.800 Well, and it's one of these things where, like, you 2:07:20.840 --> 2:07:23.600 can look at the extent to which this isn't really. 2:07:24.120 --> 2:07:26.210 Like, about. 2:07:26.570 --> 2:07:28.690 It's literally not about this. You can tell it's not 2:07:28.710 --> 2:07:31.310 about ability because, like, I can't play women's chess. 2:07:31.810 --> 2:07:32.050 Yeah. 2:07:32.210 --> 2:07:34.010 It's like, what the f * * * are we 2:07:34.050 --> 2:07:34.530 doing here? 2:07:35.010 --> 2:07:39.090 Like, the second Magic the Gathering bans trans women from 2:07:39.110 --> 2:07:40.150 the pro tour.... 2:07:41.730 --> 2:07:43.280 Are they going to have a Pro Tour anymore? 2:07:43.300 --> 2:07:47.020 Yeah, no, the Pro Tour actually just came back. As 2:07:47.440 --> 2:07:48.820 of this year, thank God. 2:07:49.800 --> 2:07:53.000 Yeah, but ability-wise, too, I'm like, so what? Let trans 2:07:53.040 --> 2:07:56.000 people win things? That's also okay? 2:07:56.620 --> 2:07:59.230 Yeah, it comes down to this. Again, the fundamental question is... 2:08:00.310 --> 2:08:03.450 is a trans woman a woman or not? And if 2:08:03.470 --> 2:08:06.570 you're a woman, then you have all of the rights 2:08:06.720 --> 2:08:09.320 that a woman does. And if you're not, then you don't. 2:08:09.580 --> 2:08:11.820 That's just fundamentally what it is. 2:08:12.260 --> 2:08:12.500 Yeah. 2:08:13.160 --> 2:08:18.040 And it's so frustrating that this has turned into this 2:08:18.100 --> 2:08:22.030 sort of like, Oh, we can agree to disagree about 2:08:22.250 --> 2:08:23.790 whether you should exist or not. 2:08:24.590 --> 2:08:26.830 That's like, well, can I agree to disagree whether you 2:08:26.850 --> 2:08:29.470 should exist or not? Is this a two-way street? I'm 2:08:29.490 --> 2:08:33.260 just using my platform to advocate for my beliefs. 2:08:33.600 --> 2:08:35.760 I think journalists should be banned from having health care. 2:08:35.780 --> 2:08:38.940 I think it's actually dangerous for me as a trans 2:08:38.960 --> 2:08:41.380 woman to exist in the same space as a journalist, 2:08:41.720 --> 2:08:45.660 because journalists have a long tradition of... and history of 2:08:45.700 --> 2:08:47.500 harming my people, so I think we should talk about 2:08:47.540 --> 2:08:50.830 restricting their access to healthcare because giving journalists healthcare allows 2:08:50.850 --> 2:08:52.050 them to reproduce transphobia. 2:08:52.070 --> 2:08:55.880 I mean, look, it got me convinced. 2:08:56.120 --> 2:08:56.360 God. 2:08:57.330 --> 2:09:00.650 Well, okay, before we wrap up, I do want to 2:09:00.840 --> 2:09:05.180 get a little bit of joy out of this episode, which, so, 2:09:06.460 --> 2:09:08.820 the kind of, one of the kind of concluding points 2:09:08.840 --> 2:09:10.820 of this story, I don't know, given the fact that, like, 2:09:10.860 --> 2:09:12.980 we now live in an administration where the richest man 2:09:13.050 --> 2:09:15.710 on Earth gave two Nazi salutes at the inauguration, like, 2:09:16.150 --> 2:09:18.390 Who knows, like, by the time this episode comes out, 2:09:18.430 --> 2:09:22.190 Sophie Cunningham might have, like, fucking born a swastika or 2:09:22.230 --> 2:09:25.040 some shit. But, like, there's a kind of capstone to 2:09:25.080 --> 2:09:27.820 this story, which is Sophie Cunningham doing this, oh, why 2:09:27.860 --> 2:09:31.200 are all the journalists talking about the culture wars instead 2:09:31.240 --> 2:09:35.090 of focusing on basketball? So I want to take a 2:09:35.160 --> 2:09:38.830 second to talk about Sophie Cunningham as a fucking basketball player. 2:09:39.190 --> 2:09:42.870 Because I have been so angry about having to fucking 2:09:42.970 --> 2:09:46.190 hear about this motherfucker that Like, you know what? 2:09:46.230 --> 2:09:46.550 Fuck it. 2:09:46.610 --> 2:09:50.270 I'm going to do the Julius Caesar bit. The whole 2:09:50.330 --> 2:09:55.400 of Gaul, Julius Caesar once remarked, is divided into three parts. Likewise, 2:09:55.520 --> 2:09:59.080 analysis of athletics is also divided into three parts, one 2:09:59.120 --> 2:10:02.560 of which the tape grinders inhabit, the analytics nerds another, 2:10:02.740 --> 2:10:05.780 and the old school coaches the third. The life of 2:10:05.800 --> 2:10:09.420 the tape grinder consists of endlessly digesting and watching like 2:10:09.700 --> 2:10:13.540 fucking 17 second clips of some athlete doing something and 2:10:13.560 --> 2:10:16.510 trying to figure out whether or not they're good. The 2:10:16.570 --> 2:10:20.270 analytics nerd lives in statistical annexes of unimaginable tedium from 2:10:20.330 --> 2:10:23.390 which they emerge to tell you that this player is 2:10:23.450 --> 2:10:26.170 either good or bad based on a bunch of unbelievably 2:10:26.210 --> 2:10:29.370 convoluted mathematical formulas they are not capable of explaining. And 2:10:29.390 --> 2:10:31.830 the old school coach largely consists of like old white 2:10:31.850 --> 2:10:33.890 guys on the internet going that boy nice after they've 2:10:33.910 --> 2:10:36.570 been fired for saying slurs in a locker room. Now, 2:10:37.270 --> 2:10:41.010 very rarely, all three of these factions will come to 2:10:41.050 --> 2:10:44.230 a consensus on a player. You have heard their names. 2:10:44.290 --> 2:10:48.030 This is Aja Wilson. This is Michael Jordan. This is, like, 2:10:48.190 --> 2:10:52.810 Peek LeBron. All three factions will unite to be like, 2:10:52.910 --> 2:10:53.940 this player is good. 2:10:54.300 --> 2:10:55.070 Occasionally! 2:10:55.850 --> 2:10:59.440 Once in a blue moon, you will get all three 2:10:59.500 --> 2:11:02.620 factions agreeing that a player fucking sucks. 2:11:03.240 --> 2:11:04.860 And that is Sophie Cunningham. 2:11:04.880 --> 2:11:09.230 She is statistically one of the worst players I have 2:11:09.390 --> 2:11:13.750 ever seen. Like the regular statistics, the game before she 2:11:13.790 --> 2:11:16.990 did her big, she did her big, we're pivoting back 2:11:17.030 --> 2:11:23.690 to sports. She shot 0% from the field. 0%. Can 2:11:23.750 --> 2:11:27.600 you explain what that means for a player to shoot 0% 2:11:27.600 --> 2:11:28.320 from the field? 2:11:28.720 --> 2:11:31.820 It means they didn't make a single basket. I mean, 2:11:31.840 --> 2:11:34.740 I love this pivot for her. It seems like being 2:11:34.780 --> 2:11:39.360 transphobic is somehow making an already bad basketball player worse. And, like, again, 2:11:39.400 --> 2:11:41.610 couldn't have happened to a better person, in my opinion. 2:11:42.150 --> 2:11:43.870 I was about to say I could do better than that, 2:11:43.910 --> 2:11:45.530 but then I'm pretty good at points, so. 2:11:45.550 --> 2:11:46.250 Oh, no. 2:11:48.490 --> 2:11:50.700 Okay, speaking of I Could Do Better, can we talk 2:11:50.720 --> 2:11:53.100 about the game that she played after she did her 2:11:53.140 --> 2:11:54.520 We Need to Pivot Back to Basketball thing? 2:11:54.970 --> 2:11:55.190 Because. 2:11:55.970 --> 2:11:58.390 Like, this is not a good WNBA player, even when 2:11:58.430 --> 2:12:02.190 she's not embroiled in controversy. Like, there's, oh God, who 2:12:02.230 --> 2:12:02.440 was it? 2:12:02.850 --> 2:12:03.370 The Stephen A. 2:12:03.430 --> 2:12:06.450 Smith joke about someone getting a single single. Like, if 2:12:06.510 --> 2:12:09.150 she averages a single single over the course of a week, 2:12:09.210 --> 2:12:11.910 that is her doing good. This is someone who comes 2:12:11.950 --> 2:12:15.140 off the bench, misses a bunch of three-pointers, gets somewhere 2:12:15.150 --> 2:12:18.220 between like eight and twelve points, and then fights people. 2:12:18.820 --> 2:12:21.140 I think her career average is about eight points a game, 2:12:21.180 --> 2:12:24.130 but She played like 28 minutes last week and scored 2:12:24.170 --> 2:12:26.310 two points, three points, something like that. 2:12:26.650 --> 2:12:27.230 Oh, wow. 2:12:27.730 --> 2:12:31.070 Yeah, you know, really productive time on the floor. 2:12:31.630 --> 2:12:34.090 Go for her. You could put a horse on the 2:12:34.150 --> 2:12:35.710 fucking court and it would do more. 2:12:35.850 --> 2:12:38.430 Truly, I do feel like maybe I could also at 2:12:38.470 --> 2:12:42.730 some point throw a basket and it might go in. 2:12:42.750 --> 2:12:45.510 Statistically, it should happen. 2:12:46.070 --> 2:12:47.350 Statistically. 2:12:47.570 --> 2:12:50.540 That two-point game, she scored two points on free throws. 2:12:50.620 --> 2:12:51.700 She didn't throw a basket. 2:12:51.820 --> 2:12:53.440 She just got free throws. Oh my god. 2:12:54.180 --> 2:12:55.180 Oh my god. 2:12:55.540 --> 2:13:00.010 And then she had another game, which was statistically... This 2:13:00.070 --> 2:13:02.560 isn't really an advanced statistic. There's a basketball statistic called 2:13:02.690 --> 2:13:07.100 plus minus, which, Frankie, you correct me if I'm explaining 2:13:07.160 --> 2:13:10.420 this incorrectly, but it is when you are on the court, 2:13:10.880 --> 2:13:13.340 either how many more points does your team score or 2:13:13.380 --> 2:13:15.460 does the opponent's team score? So if you're, for example, 2:13:15.500 --> 2:13:17.340 like a plus 10, that means when you were on 2:13:17.380 --> 2:13:19.480 the court, your team scored plus 10 more points than 2:13:19.500 --> 2:13:20.280 when you were off the court. 2:13:20.480 --> 2:13:20.660 Yes. 2:13:21.660 --> 2:13:23.660 She played a game where she was on the court 2:13:23.740 --> 2:13:27.280 for 17 minutes and she had a plus minus of 2:13:27.590 --> 2:13:28.930 negative 28. 2:13:28.930 --> 2:13:29.770 Incredible. 2:13:30.730 --> 2:13:32.930 How is it even possible to be on a court? 2:13:32.990 --> 2:13:35.770 Is it the worst game in WNBA history? It's close. 2:13:36.050 --> 2:13:37.290 It's the worst game on a win. 2:13:37.610 --> 2:13:37.930 Okay. 2:13:37.990 --> 2:13:38.570 Okay. 2:13:38.590 --> 2:13:42.400 Yes. There's a great Instagram account. I think has to 2:13:42.420 --> 2:13:45.900 talk to WNBA stats or WNBA data. That's what it's called. 2:13:45.920 --> 2:13:46.200 Maddie. 2:13:46.560 --> 2:13:49.260 And Maddie looked at this game and it was definitely, 2:13:49.500 --> 2:13:52.520 if not the worst game in WNBA history, very close. 2:13:53.700 --> 2:13:55.300 Yeah, I think it was like the worst ever in 2:13:55.340 --> 2:13:57.320 a win. And I kind of emphasized enough, right? The 2:13:57.580 --> 2:14:01.970 WNBA games are shorter than NBA games. So you have 2:14:02.050 --> 2:14:05.629 less time to build scoring volume, right? So you kind 2:14:05.670 --> 2:14:08.440 of have to be more efficient. To have the other 2:14:08.520 --> 2:14:11.240 team score 28 more points when you were on the 2:14:11.340 --> 2:14:15.240 court for 17 minutes is astronomical. 2:14:15.280 --> 2:14:17.230 They might as well be down a player. Like, why 2:14:17.240 --> 2:14:17.980 are you even there? 2:14:18.060 --> 2:14:18.400 Yeah. 2:14:18.770 --> 2:14:21.490 No, if you were literally playing four out of five, 2:14:21.530 --> 2:14:25.030 I think you would do better. Like, that's like, it's astonishing. 2:14:25.510 --> 2:14:28.250 This is a slightly dishonest way of putting it, but 2:14:29.090 --> 2:14:32.790 it gets into like how colossal of a fuck up 2:14:32.830 --> 2:14:33.160 this is. 2:14:33.670 --> 2:14:36.270 Yeah, I mean, she's never won a championship at any level. 2:14:36.450 --> 2:14:38.030 I mean, unless you're counting high school. 2:14:38.530 --> 2:14:39.190 No, of course not. 2:14:39.750 --> 2:14:40.950 Yeah, because she's bad. 2:14:41.110 --> 2:14:43.210 And like, to put it in perspective, how bad being 2:14:43.270 --> 2:14:47.650 minus 28 is. So Aja Wilson is by a pretty 2:14:47.730 --> 2:14:49.690 big margin, like the highest points per game score in 2:14:49.710 --> 2:14:52.470 the WNBA this season. She's scoring 26 points a game. 2:14:53.050 --> 2:14:55.190 That's the best player in the league. The like, a 2:14:55.230 --> 2:14:58.550 kind of like, I don't know, like perennial MVP, like generally, 2:14:58.570 --> 2:15:02.350 like literally a generational player is dropping on average 26 2:15:02.350 --> 2:15:02.760 points a game. 2:15:03.030 --> 2:15:05.400 You were minus 28. 2:15:05.400 --> 2:15:09.400 Having you on the court was like having Aja Wilson, 2:15:09.700 --> 2:15:11.900 but better on the other team. 2:15:12.380 --> 2:15:13.080 Like.... 2:15:15.520 --> 2:15:17.380 Like, and this is the f * * * ing 2:15:17.420 --> 2:15:18.460 basketball players. 2:15:20.140 --> 2:15:20.680 I just like. 2:15:21.890 --> 2:15:24.220 This is the basketball player who's, like, maybe, like, the 2:15:24.260 --> 2:15:26.460 second or third most famous person in the WNBA now 2:15:26.520 --> 2:15:28.060 because of all of this bullshit? 2:15:28.260 --> 2:15:30.640 No, truly, I was at the Sun game last weekend, 2:15:30.760 --> 2:15:32.780 and they were not playing the Fever, and there was 2:15:32.840 --> 2:15:36.360 two people in Fever Cunningham jerseys, which is obviously now 2:15:36.400 --> 2:15:38.000 the new MAGA hat, and I kind of just wanted 2:15:38.040 --> 2:15:39.920 to go up and be like, why are you wearing 2:15:39.940 --> 2:15:42.760 the jersey of, like, the worst player in the league? Like, 2:15:42.860 --> 2:15:45.640 at least the Caitlin Clark jersey, I kind of get it, but, like, 2:15:45.800 --> 2:15:46.760 Sophie Cunningham, really? 2:15:47.310 --> 2:15:51.450 Yeah is everything okay at home like yeah like you 2:15:51.480 --> 2:15:53.900 need someone to check in on you babes. 2:15:53.540 --> 2:15:57.980 Like oh god as just like a source of joy 2:15:58.000 --> 2:16:00.320 i want to close this by talking about olivia miles 2:16:00.620 --> 2:16:04.240 who is maybe my favorite basketball player ever now who 2:16:04.300 --> 2:16:08.690 is so cool i love her she's great she's my 2:16:08.730 --> 2:16:13.240 height So she's like a 5'10 point guard, but like 2:16:13.680 --> 2:16:18.440 she scores at the rim. Nothing about the way that 2:16:18.460 --> 2:16:20.600 she plays basketball makes any sense to me. It's like 2:16:20.620 --> 2:16:23.130 this shouldn't work and it does and it's beautiful and 2:16:23.170 --> 2:16:25.530 I love it. And she's like, she was the best 2:16:25.570 --> 2:16:28.110 player on the best team in the league as a rookie. 2:16:28.430 --> 2:16:32.010 She's amazing to watch. You know, I knew she would 2:16:32.030 --> 2:16:35.230 be great in W. I think I was shocked at 2:16:35.310 --> 2:16:38.289 how quickly her game translated. And I think it really 2:16:38.330 --> 2:16:41.110 highlighted not to like shit on Caitlyn again, but I 2:16:41.170 --> 2:16:46.029 think it highlighted what people kind of thought Caitlyn Clark 2:16:46.050 --> 2:16:47.800 would look like because, you know, she's also a point 2:16:47.820 --> 2:16:51.119 guard and they have similar, you know, great passing ability, 2:16:51.160 --> 2:16:54.220 great court vision. Those are things that both players share. 2:16:54.680 --> 2:16:57.020 And you're like, oh, well, there's always a transition period. 2:16:57.060 --> 2:16:59.800 You know, you're playing against grown women. Like, you got, 2:16:59.860 --> 2:17:01.120 you know, you're going to get your butt kicked your 2:17:01.220 --> 2:17:02.820 first season. That's just kind of how it goes. And 2:17:02.860 --> 2:17:05.939 then Olivia Miles steps in and it was like seamless, 2:17:06.140 --> 2:17:09.199 like no time had passed. Courtney Williams was like happy 2:17:09.240 --> 2:17:11.300 to be like, I'm going back to being a shooting guard. 2:17:11.379 --> 2:17:13.840 You're leading our team as a rookie. Like you got us. 2:17:14.459 --> 2:17:17.240 She is, I don't know how to describe what she 2:17:17.280 --> 2:17:20.099 looks like when she plays because nothing she does seems 2:17:20.120 --> 2:17:22.420 like it should be possible. And yet it's also just 2:17:22.470 --> 2:17:26.890 like graceful and powerful and like smooth and just kind 2:17:26.930 --> 2:17:30.619 of everything all at once. And She's got really great 2:17:30.780 --> 2:17:34.740 style off the court, and I love that. Also, did 2:17:34.760 --> 2:17:37.760 you see the nickname? Because she wears glasses off the court. 2:17:37.780 --> 2:17:40.490 She wears, like, goggles on the court. And the nickname, 2:17:40.570 --> 2:17:42.870 The Spectacle, which I'm now obsessed with. 2:17:43.370 --> 2:17:44.450 Oh, my God. 2:17:44.970 --> 2:17:45.910 Oh, that's so good. 2:17:45.930 --> 2:17:50.490 That's so good. No, because, I've only recently learned who 2:17:50.629 --> 2:17:53.660 she is. It's literally a couple days before we recorded this, 2:17:53.720 --> 2:17:55.080 and I'm like, holy fuck. 2:17:55.580 --> 2:17:59.120 Yeah, she's breaking ankles everywhere. And she could be an 2:18:00.300 --> 2:18:02.900 MVP candidate. I think the only time we've seen a 2:18:02.920 --> 2:18:05.860 Rookie of the Year and MVP was Candice Parker in 2:18:05.879 --> 2:18:07.990 the same year. She could do it. 2:18:08.000 --> 2:18:08.939 I support it. 2:18:09.470 --> 2:18:12.110 Yeah, it is really truly one of those, like, I 2:18:12.150 --> 2:18:13.840 feel so bad for her for having to be in 2:18:13.879 --> 2:18:17.060 an MVP race with Aja Wilson. But, like, the other 2:18:17.080 --> 2:18:19.280 thing about her that I love is, like, she also 2:18:19.340 --> 2:18:20.040 plays defense. 2:18:20.300 --> 2:18:21.230 She does. 2:18:21.250 --> 2:18:24.230 And she, like, seems to really enjoy it. And, like, 2:18:24.610 --> 2:18:28.320 I have this, like, indelible image of her like in 2:18:28.340 --> 2:18:31.820 this game where she's trying to defend someone. I can't 2:18:31.840 --> 2:18:33.700 remember who she's playing. She's trying to defend someone who's 2:18:33.790 --> 2:18:37.009 like four inches taller than her. And she like bites 2:18:37.090 --> 2:18:37.750 on a fake. 2:18:37.990 --> 2:18:39.530 So she's like in the air. 2:18:40.320 --> 2:18:42.780 But somehow she has like, she's like, she's like in 2:18:42.820 --> 2:18:45.340 the air jumping and she has like her back to 2:18:45.360 --> 2:18:48.560 the shooter. But somehow she has managed to angle this 2:18:48.640 --> 2:18:51.370 such that even though she's, she like bit on a 2:18:51.450 --> 2:18:55.010 fake and is jumping, she's still blocking the shot by 2:18:55.050 --> 2:18:56.530 being in the air in front of them. 2:18:56.570 --> 2:18:59.310 And I was like, how is that even possible? Like, 2:19:00.110 --> 2:19:04.310 How do you do that? I don't know. 2:19:05.580 --> 2:19:08.520 You owe it to yourself to go watch some of 2:19:08.540 --> 2:19:11.980 her highlights. Go watch Olivia Miles' highlights. It was what 2:19:12.000 --> 2:19:14.300 I was using as eye bleach after I was trying 2:19:14.340 --> 2:19:17.019 to watch Sophie Cunningham tape, which was one of the 2:19:17.060 --> 2:19:18.760 most miserable experiences of my life. 2:19:19.600 --> 2:19:22.060 Yeah, Olivia Miles is kind of a walking highlight reel. 2:19:22.100 --> 2:19:26.119 She's really something to watch. I'm excited that it's just 2:19:26.170 --> 2:19:28.550 her rookie season, too. I get a lot more of 2:19:28.950 --> 2:19:31.529 her Yeah. Yeah. 2:19:31.590 --> 2:19:34.230 And she's on a really good team. She's in a 2:19:34.250 --> 2:19:37.130 great environment. Like, everyone seems to love her. And I just, 2:19:37.470 --> 2:19:38.290 I'm so happy for her. 2:19:38.310 --> 2:19:42.300 I'm still hooked on to this spectacle. That's so fucking good. 2:19:42.320 --> 2:19:44.660 It's so good. So good. 2:19:48.320 --> 2:19:48.560 Yeah. 2:19:48.640 --> 2:19:50.700 So this has been, this has been a good happen here. 2:19:50.780 --> 2:19:52.500 And thank you both for coming on and also for 2:19:52.520 --> 2:19:54.340 letting me gush about one of my favorite players because 2:19:54.600 --> 2:19:54.940 I love her. 2:19:55.080 --> 2:19:55.460 She's so great. 2:19:56.260 --> 2:19:57.180 Thanks for having me. 2:19:57.200 --> 2:19:57.660 Oh my God. 2:19:57.740 --> 2:19:59.850 Literally anytime. Thanks for having me. 2:20:00.310 --> 2:20:02.349 If you would like to be found and have people 2:20:02.390 --> 2:20:04.130 find your work, where can people find your work? 2:20:04.610 --> 2:20:09.170 I am on social media on Instagram and blue sky 2:20:09.390 --> 2:20:12.830 at the Frankie DLC. And the, probably the best place 2:20:12.879 --> 2:20:15.400 to follow my work is my newsletter called out of 2:20:15.440 --> 2:20:18.260 your league where I write stuff, but I also link 2:20:18.340 --> 2:20:20.300 out to the stuff that I write elsewhere. 2:20:20.320 --> 2:20:22.039 Really good. And we have a. 2:20:22.060 --> 2:20:26.980 Great queer women's sports discord community. Um, And yeah, it's 2:20:27.020 --> 2:20:27.500 pretty dope. 2:20:27.879 --> 2:20:28.200 Oh yeah. 2:20:28.660 --> 2:20:28.840 Yeah. 2:20:28.860 --> 2:20:30.880 You can find me on blue sky. Yeah. But about 2:20:30.980 --> 2:20:34.970 stuff and, or if you've enjoyed hearing my dulcet cackles, 2:20:35.100 --> 2:20:38.790 I got a podcast called everything is wrestling, but I 2:20:38.830 --> 2:20:42.070 do with my friend Ella Taylor, where we basically just 2:20:42.129 --> 2:20:46.650 invite cool people on to info dump about their special interests. 2:20:46.930 --> 2:20:50.709 And we try to relate it to professional wrestling. I 2:20:50.770 --> 2:20:55.240 think at the time, this drops the most recent episode was, 2:20:55.640 --> 2:21:00.360 will either have been the law is wrestling or Muppets 2:21:00.879 --> 2:21:01.519 is wrestling. 2:21:01.540 --> 2:21:02.660 I'm proud of mom. 2:21:03.420 --> 2:21:04.240 Hell yeah, hell yeah. 2:21:04.820 --> 2:21:06.699 Thank you two again so much for coming on and 2:21:06.720 --> 2:21:10.260 talking about this. And may we all live long enough 2:21:10.420 --> 2:21:13.200 to see trans women actually in the WNBA. 2:21:13.440 --> 2:21:15.200 Honestly, yeah. That'd be sick as hell. 2:21:15.879 --> 2:21:16.060 Yeah. 2:21:28.240 --> 2:21:32.000 Welcome to It Could Happen Here, I'm Garrison Davis. A 2:21:32.040 --> 2:21:36.460 few months ago, the Department of Justice indicted 15 anti-ICE 2:21:36.540 --> 2:21:41.019 protesters who participated in the community response to Operation Metro 2:21:41.100 --> 2:21:46.550 Surge in Minneapolis, Minnesota earlier this year. Here's U.S. Attorney 2:21:46.680 --> 2:21:50.970 Daniel Rosen announcing the charges in a press conference dated 2:21:51.070 --> 2:21:53.410 June 16th, 2026. 2:21:54.230 --> 2:22:00.010 Last year, President Trump issued National Security Presidential Memorandum 7, 2:22:00.010 --> 2:22:04.070 which directed the Department of Justice to prioritize politically motivated violence. 2:22:05.209 --> 2:22:08.710 To accomplish that mission, the Deputy Attorney General stood up 2:22:08.770 --> 2:22:14.250 Joint Task Force Vanguard to enforce a national security strategy 2:22:15.200 --> 2:22:19.060 to investigate, prosecute, and disrupt those who engage in political 2:22:19.100 --> 2:22:25.810 violence and intimidation. Today, a federal indictment was unsealed, charging 2:22:25.810 --> 2:22:30.870 15 defendants with conspiracy to impede or injure federal officers 2:22:31.690 --> 2:22:36.770 and other charges related to efforts of two Minneapolis-based Antifa 2:22:36.800 --> 2:22:41.140 groups that violently opposed the enforcement of federal law in 2:22:41.200 --> 2:22:41.640 our state. 2:22:42.560 --> 2:22:43.560 As U.S. 2:22:43.600 --> 2:22:49.390 Attorney Daniel Rosen said, all 15 quote-unquote Antifa defendants were 2:22:49.410 --> 2:22:54.560 charged with conspiracy to impede or injure an officer. According 2:22:54.580 --> 2:23:01.060 to the DOJ, the conspiracy to impede amounted to plans 2:23:01.140 --> 2:23:06.730 to temporarily block roadways around the Bishop Henry Whipple Federal Building, 2:23:07.150 --> 2:23:10.250 where ICE operations in the Twin Cities were and still 2:23:10.390 --> 2:23:16.450 are based out of. The start of the 95-page indictment reads, quote, 2:23:17.070 --> 2:23:21.490 The defendants were members and associates of Twin Cities Direct Action, 2:23:22.070 --> 2:23:26.849 which later changed its name to Direct Action Minnesota, or DAM, 2:23:27.430 --> 2:23:30.910 an organization dedicated and committed to direct action against federal 2:23:30.950 --> 2:23:35.689 law and immigration enforcement. Direct action refers to disruptive and 2:23:35.830 --> 2:23:40.230 obstructive tactics used by participants to forcibly challenge, block, or 2:23:40.310 --> 2:23:45.910 stop immigration raids, detentions, and deportations. DAM describes itself as 2:23:46.379 --> 2:23:49.600 A decentralized coalition of working class people engaged in various 2:23:49.650 --> 2:23:52.850 forms of community defense against the current federal occupation happening 2:23:52.870 --> 2:23:56.310 within the wider metro area and against state and far-right 2:23:56.370 --> 2:24:00.990 violence more broadly, unquote. Here's attorney Daniel Rosen again at 2:24:01.030 --> 2:24:01.869 that press conference. 2:24:02.350 --> 2:24:05.769 The organization trains its members in the aggressive use of 2:24:05.870 --> 2:24:12.360 shields against law enforcement, surveillance, operational planning, and rapid mobilization 2:24:12.780 --> 2:24:14.180 against law enforcement actions. 2:24:15.020 --> 2:24:18.940 The first piece of evidence presented by Rosen in this 2:24:19.020 --> 2:24:22.750 press conference is a Facebook post by one of the 2:24:22.760 --> 2:24:26.490 defendants reading, it's going to get so much worse and 2:24:26.510 --> 2:24:30.630 a nonviolent ideology and our politicians aren't going to save us. 2:24:31.150 --> 2:24:35.570 We need to become ungovernable. We need to actively resist 2:24:35.750 --> 2:24:40.380 any way we can to materially stop the Nazi occupation forces. 2:24:41.440 --> 2:24:44.760 I do think it's worth noting that When President Trump 2:24:45.000 --> 2:24:49.980 spoke at the Libertarian Convention in 2024, the wall behind 2:24:50.040 --> 2:24:56.619 him featured giant text reading, Become Ungovernable. Now, most of 2:24:56.660 --> 2:25:03.860 this 95-page indictment is spent detailing random conversations on Signal 2:25:03.940 --> 2:25:08.690 and various group chats discussing First Amendment activity, planning protests, 2:25:09.209 --> 2:25:14.210 discussing how to go about fundraising... making flyers, participating in 2:25:14.370 --> 2:25:19.430 ICE rapid response, writing articles on Crimethink, and an anarchist 2:25:19.490 --> 2:25:24.090 speaking tour, all of which the indictment lists as, quote, 2:25:24.410 --> 2:25:29.039 overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. And that's how 2:25:29.400 --> 2:25:34.430 conspiracy charges work. Not all the overt acts themselves have 2:25:34.510 --> 2:25:38.250 to be illegal. In fact, they usually are not. They 2:25:38.290 --> 2:25:42.199 just have to be actions taken involving multiple people to 2:25:42.260 --> 2:25:46.740 advance some other criminal goal. In this case, quote unquote, 2:25:47.060 --> 2:25:51.959 impeding law enforcement. And what makes this case particularly weak 2:25:52.340 --> 2:25:56.730 is that the impeding in this case amounts to extremely 2:25:56.910 --> 2:26:01.530 ordinary First Amendment protests. So, not only are the majority, 2:26:01.890 --> 2:26:06.250 if not all, of the overt acts listed completely legal actions, 2:26:06.770 --> 2:26:11.410 they were actions taken in furtherance of legally protected First 2:26:11.450 --> 2:26:15.720 Amendment activity. Now, the indictment does list a few other 2:26:15.780 --> 2:26:20.500 charges against specific individuals. One person is charged with allegedly 2:26:20.540 --> 2:26:25.420 making threats based on statements made in Facebook and Instagram videos. 2:26:26.540 --> 2:26:32.050 Two people are charged with interstate stalking based on following 2:26:32.230 --> 2:26:36.850 vehicles leaving the Whipple building across state lines into Wisconsin. 2:26:37.990 --> 2:26:41.879 One person is charged with allegedly assaulting a federal officer 2:26:41.980 --> 2:26:46.539 by knocking notes out of their hand and destruction of 2:26:46.580 --> 2:26:51.220 government property for kicking a vehicle. And lastly, another defendant 2:26:51.320 --> 2:26:56.039 is charged with assaulting a federal officer for allegedly brake-checking 2:26:56.260 --> 2:27:02.000 and side-swiping the officer's vehicle, causing a collision. No evidence 2:27:02.070 --> 2:27:05.610 for these alleged assaults has been presented thus far. But 2:27:05.890 --> 2:27:11.810 the conspiracy charge, tying the 15 defendants together, is the 2:27:11.910 --> 2:27:18.670 most oh-so-it's-illegal-to-make-plans-with-friends-now case I've ever seen. If it wasn't clear 2:27:18.830 --> 2:27:21.310 from the moment this indictment dropped that It only gets 2:27:21.360 --> 2:27:23.970 more and more clear over time that this case is 2:27:24.010 --> 2:27:27.429 not based on the strength of the evidence or threat 2:27:27.470 --> 2:27:31.870 to public safety, but rather political targeting based on the 2:27:31.930 --> 2:27:36.629 beliefs held by the defendants and the DOJ's ability to 2:27:36.709 --> 2:27:41.699 paint the defendants as Antifa lunatics. separate from the majority 2:27:41.740 --> 2:27:46.880 of peaceful, liberal anti-ice protesters, all while building a precedent 2:27:46.980 --> 2:27:53.260 to criminalize ordinary First Amendment protest activity, including ICE rapid response. 2:27:53.900 --> 2:27:57.160 To make it so that any protest against ICE is 2:27:57.730 --> 2:28:02.530 qualifies as interfering or impeding ICE from carrying out its 2:28:02.720 --> 2:28:07.160 immigration enforcement duties. And to create this precedent, the feds 2:28:07.240 --> 2:28:12.080 located a small group of Antifa, some outside agitators, that 2:28:12.120 --> 2:28:15.580 they believe a jury might be more likely to convict 2:28:16.040 --> 2:28:18.990 than the dozens and dozens of cases that have failed 2:28:19.050 --> 2:28:23.669 to move forward. In absence of any evidence of illegal 2:28:23.810 --> 2:28:29.630 violent acts, the DOJ must rely on radical-sounding statements made 2:28:29.709 --> 2:28:33.529 by the defendants discussing their politics to turn a jury 2:28:33.590 --> 2:28:36.449 against them. And that's most of what the indictment contains. 2:28:36.510 --> 2:28:41.840 It's not detailing alleged acts of violence. It's detailing conversations 2:28:42.120 --> 2:28:47.140 about protesting. This indictment contains a lot of signal chat logs, 2:28:47.720 --> 2:28:52.340 as well as conversations from in-person meetings, which leads one 2:28:52.379 --> 2:28:58.360 to wonder... How exactly did DHS obtain that information? Well, 2:28:58.440 --> 2:29:02.000 a few weeks ago, about 30 documents were released as 2:29:02.040 --> 2:29:04.220 a part of a discovery motion filed by one of 2:29:04.260 --> 2:29:08.820 the defendants. And these documents provide maybe the closest look 2:29:09.000 --> 2:29:12.220 at how federal law enforcement under Trump, and specifically how 2:29:12.320 --> 2:29:17.740 DHS and Homeland Security Investigations are investigating and surveilling not just, 2:29:18.140 --> 2:29:23.959 quote unquote, Antifa, but anti-ICE protesters more broadly, community activist groups, 2:29:24.400 --> 2:29:29.340 left-wing organizations and non-profits, and even labor unions. The lawyer 2:29:29.379 --> 2:29:32.080 for the defendant in this case called this a, quote, 2:29:32.540 --> 2:29:38.500 unprecedented campaign by DHS to spy on Minnesotans. Before I 2:29:38.520 --> 2:29:40.940 get into some of these specific details, I want to 2:29:40.990 --> 2:29:44.910 read the opening overview by the defense lawyer, Kevin Ryok, 2:29:45.270 --> 2:29:49.860 discussing what Discovery has so far revealed. Quote, Undercover agents 2:29:50.040 --> 2:29:55.210 posing as protesters surveilled community meetings at churches, parks, libraries, schools, 2:29:55.410 --> 2:30:00.490 and union halls. These agents surreptitiously recorded dozens of conversations 2:30:00.530 --> 2:30:03.730 with ordinary people who were simply exercising their First Amendment 2:30:03.770 --> 2:30:08.140 right to protest ICE's lawless rampage in our state. The 2:30:08.200 --> 2:30:11.500 agents gathered information about Minnesotans from law enforcement databases and 2:30:11.560 --> 2:30:17.300 internet searches and created dossiers that are apparently now available agency-wide. 2:30:17.860 --> 2:30:22.760 Homeland Security Investigations' abuses did not stop there. HSI secretly 2:30:22.820 --> 2:30:27.400 obtained financial records for several national labor unions and social 2:30:27.459 --> 2:30:32.099 justice non-profits, all with zero criminal predicate to do so. 2:30:32.670 --> 2:30:36.429 The government's presentation to the grand jury reflected this broad 2:30:36.629 --> 2:30:40.830 and irrational investigation. With no evidence, the government alleged to 2:30:40.850 --> 2:30:44.379 the grand jury that the conspiracy in this case extends 2:30:44.720 --> 2:30:49.480 far beyond the defendants to include the AFL-CIO, the Minneapolis 2:30:49.540 --> 2:30:54.350 Federation of Educators, the Minnesota Association of Professional Employees, Monarcha, 2:30:54.850 --> 2:30:58.730 Veterans for Peace, and the Grease Pit Bicycle Repair Shop, 2:30:58.950 --> 2:31:03.270 among others. These wild conspiracy allegations are born from the 2:31:03.350 --> 2:31:08.519 fantasies of political retribution that animate the Trump administration. President 2:31:08.560 --> 2:31:12.000 Trump and senior administration officials routinely speak of the political 2:31:12.040 --> 2:31:18.430 left in dehumanizing terms, as deformed, scarred, and filled with ugliness, 2:31:18.510 --> 2:31:23.430 for example. The administration has crystallized those sentiments into policies 2:31:23.890 --> 2:31:28.910 that encourage and authorize political prosecutions like this one, most notably, 2:31:29.290 --> 2:31:34.699 National Security Presidential Memorandum 7, unquote. I'm not exaggerating that 2:31:34.959 --> 2:31:40.020 this motion filed by the defense is maybe the greatest 2:31:40.520 --> 2:31:44.910 motion I've ever read. The understanding by the lawyer in 2:31:44.930 --> 2:31:48.290 this case of how the Trump administration is carrying out 2:31:48.330 --> 2:31:53.960 state repression against protesters is incredibly politically fluent. That last 2:31:54.040 --> 2:31:56.939 bit at the end discussing administration officials referring to the 2:31:57.000 --> 2:32:01.160 political left as deformed, scarred, or filled with ugliness relates 2:32:01.200 --> 2:32:06.330 to Stephen Miller's comments at Mark Rubio's left-wing terrorism summit 2:32:06.450 --> 2:32:10.430 last month that we discussed on executive disorder. And what 2:32:10.490 --> 2:32:14.930 he said during that conference was legitimately crazy. I didn't 2:32:14.950 --> 2:32:17.670 get to much of what he said in our previous 2:32:17.709 --> 2:32:20.310 episode because we were running short on time. But there's 2:32:20.390 --> 2:32:22.730 one quote I highlighted back then when I was doing 2:32:22.770 --> 2:32:26.080 research that I want to read now. Quote, the leftist 2:32:26.270 --> 2:32:28.740 looks at what is beautiful and what is good and 2:32:28.780 --> 2:32:32.919 what is natural and is filled with envy and hatred. 2:32:33.650 --> 2:32:36.929 The leftist looks at the perfect family with the perfect 2:32:37.030 --> 2:32:39.330 life and the perfect job and perfect kids that goes 2:32:39.379 --> 2:32:42.060 to church every Sunday and is filled with a feeling 2:32:42.100 --> 2:32:46.260 of inadequacy and jealousy and they covet. And they turn 2:32:46.280 --> 2:32:49.780 those emotions ultimately into a desire to subjugate, to oppress, 2:32:49.959 --> 2:32:53.340 and to inflict pain and suffering. It's not a coincidence 2:32:53.379 --> 2:32:55.420 that when you look at any of these violent Antifa 2:32:55.459 --> 2:32:59.970 demonstrations and you see any photograph of those who were assembled, 2:33:00.570 --> 2:33:03.030 to be blunt, Not one of the people that is 2:33:03.070 --> 2:33:07.600 demonstrating looks like a normal person. They're all deformed in 2:33:07.680 --> 2:33:11.400 some way, in their appearance, in their dress, in their mannerisms. 2:33:12.180 --> 2:33:14.840 Why is that? Every one of them, through the course 2:33:14.879 --> 2:33:17.860 of their life and their decisions, has scarred their body 2:33:17.940 --> 2:33:20.880 and their appearance in many different ways, to the point 2:33:20.920 --> 2:33:24.660 in which their outer appearance becomes a manifestation of their 2:33:24.780 --> 2:33:25.580 inner hatred. 2:33:26.160 --> 2:33:26.600 Unquote. 2:33:27.709 --> 2:33:33.019 Super fascist stuff, like incredibly fascist. And the point by 2:33:33.120 --> 2:33:35.760 Kevin Ryok, the lawyer for one of the defendants, that 2:33:35.780 --> 2:33:41.800 the Trump administration has turned these fascistic sentiments into enforcement 2:33:41.879 --> 2:33:47.310 policy like MSPM 7 is a really crucial point because 2:33:47.530 --> 2:33:51.190 these are not just personal sentiments held by Stephen Miller. 2:33:51.690 --> 2:33:55.890 These sentiments have been distilled into mandates to investigate and 2:33:56.010 --> 2:34:00.640 prosecute the political enemies of the Trump administration. Just four 2:34:00.680 --> 2:34:05.959 days after Border Patrol murdered Alex Preddy, Homeland Security Investigations 2:34:06.160 --> 2:34:10.120 opened a new investigation into anti-ICE protests in the Twin 2:34:10.170 --> 2:34:16.789 Cities called Operation Puppet Master. As in looking for the 2:34:16.930 --> 2:34:22.529 alleged puppet master orchestrating the spontaneous and community-led protests. Or, 2:34:22.670 --> 2:34:26.970 I guess, as in, HSI is the puppet master, infiltrating 2:34:27.010 --> 2:34:32.470 the protests with undercover agents puppeteered by DHS? Either way, 2:34:32.950 --> 2:34:38.269 DHS produced a report detailing the opening of Operation Puppet Master, 2:34:38.370 --> 2:34:42.189 and that report states, quote, this case is opened to 2:34:42.250 --> 2:34:48.010 document the integration of HSI undercover agents into groups, organizations, 2:34:48.220 --> 2:34:52.580 or other gatherings. identified by intelligence information and other sources 2:34:52.900 --> 2:34:56.390 as potentially threatening to law enforcement personnel in the performance 2:34:56.470 --> 2:35:00.710 of their duties. The report by HSI Special Agent Jacob 2:35:00.750 --> 2:35:07.410 Marquise continues, quote, Since November 28, 2026, I assume he 2:35:07.470 --> 2:35:08.910 means 2025. 2:35:08.910 --> 2:35:09.470 Great work, guys. 2:35:10.129 --> 2:35:13.789 Ongoing protests and incidents of civil unrest have occurred in 2:35:13.890 --> 2:35:18.730 public areas throughout Minneapolis, Minnesota. During these events, violent opportunists, 2:35:19.320 --> 2:35:23.260 or VOs, have exploited the protests as cover to attempt 2:35:23.400 --> 2:35:28.600 breaches of federal properties and perpetuated multiple assaults against federal 2:35:28.700 --> 2:35:33.629 officers tasked with protecting these facilities. Homeland Security Investigations of St. 2:35:33.670 --> 2:35:39.110 Paul has identified an organized network of conspirators operating through 2:35:39.310 --> 2:35:43.609 online and in-person who are providing material support to violent 2:35:43.690 --> 2:35:49.390 opportunists and agitators and involved in impeding federal law enforcement, rioting, 2:35:49.550 --> 2:35:55.320 destruction of federal property, and assaults on federal agents and officers. Unquote. 2:35:55.950 --> 2:35:59.480 This sentiment was also shared by U.S. Attorney Daniel Rosen 2:35:59.640 --> 2:36:00.720 in that press conference. 2:36:01.320 --> 2:36:06.500 During Operation Metro Surge, Direct Action Minnesota infiltrated and exploited 2:36:06.560 --> 2:36:11.619 lawful protests to more efficiently carry out its unlawful direct actions. 2:36:12.230 --> 2:36:15.689 Despite the claims made by Rosen and in this HSI 2:36:15.730 --> 2:36:20.850 report of violent opportunists exploiting protests to perpetuate multiple assaults, 2:36:21.690 --> 2:36:26.480 in the defense's overview of these reports and documents, the 2:36:26.500 --> 2:36:30.580 defense lawyer notes that HSI does not actually identify any 2:36:30.660 --> 2:36:35.279 specific violent opportunists in this report, nor does it flag 2:36:35.459 --> 2:36:40.040 any specific incidents of rioting, destruction of property, or assaults 2:36:40.080 --> 2:36:43.110 on federal agents or officers. To quote the lawyer for 2:36:43.150 --> 2:36:47.789 the defense, the undercover surveillance initiated by Operation Puppet Master 2:36:47.990 --> 2:36:51.730 did not actually investigate or unearth any such instances, but 2:36:51.790 --> 2:36:56.609 instead encompassed all manner of privacy and constitutional violations against 2:36:56.690 --> 2:37:01.320 organizations and individuals who opposed ICE's activities in Minnesota, unquote. 2:37:01.900 --> 2:37:06.900 And in his press conference announcing the conspiracy charges, U.S. 2:37:06.940 --> 2:37:10.960 Attorney Daniel Rosen was asked multiple times whether any officer's 2:37:11.720 --> 2:37:16.459 actually got hurt, and Rosen could not identify any instance 2:37:16.700 --> 2:37:17.720 of officer injury. 2:37:17.740 --> 2:37:22.190 We talked about coordinated attacks. What kind of injuries did 2:37:22.290 --> 2:37:24.629 officers sustain as part of these campaigns? 2:37:24.890 --> 2:37:25.730 Can you elaborate on that? 2:37:26.970 --> 2:37:28.890 I can't elaborate on that today, and I don't believe 2:37:28.930 --> 2:37:29.890 I used the word attacks. 2:37:29.959 --> 2:37:33.420 But if I did, I stand by it. 2:37:34.420 --> 2:37:37.460 That really sums up this whole case for me. No, 2:37:37.540 --> 2:37:40.259 I can't provide any evidence to support the wild claims 2:37:40.320 --> 2:37:42.539 I'm making, and I don't think I used that word, 2:37:42.580 --> 2:37:45.560 but if I did, I stand by it. Incredible stuff. 2:37:46.390 --> 2:37:49.879 We will look into more of the Homeland Security Investigation 2:37:50.060 --> 2:38:04.930 case files after this at a break. Welcome back. The 2:38:05.150 --> 2:38:10.879 HSI report detailing the opening of Operation Puppet Master concludes 2:38:10.959 --> 2:38:15.370 by stating, quote, HSI St. Paul is actively conducting a 2:38:15.530 --> 2:38:19.460 thorough financial investigation to uncover the funding sources used by 2:38:19.500 --> 2:38:23.500 these groups and to detect any illicit transactions enabling further 2:38:23.560 --> 2:38:27.140 criminal acts. HSI St. Paul will use the results of 2:38:27.180 --> 2:38:31.500 this financial investigation to identify those responsible, disrupt ongoing and 2:38:31.620 --> 2:38:36.570 future unlawful activities, and pursue prosecution of the individuals involved. 2:38:38.290 --> 2:38:42.910 And two weeks after the launching of Operation Puppet Master, 2:38:43.590 --> 2:38:49.529 HSI opened another investigation called Project Whipple Shield, specifically focusing 2:38:49.590 --> 2:38:54.320 on the identification of potential funding sources, the organizational structure, 2:38:54.700 --> 2:38:59.100 and the, quote, predicate actions behind these campaigns. To quote 2:38:59.140 --> 2:39:03.720 that HSI report, quote, this investigation is focused on identifying 2:39:03.740 --> 2:39:08.860 and disrupting sophisticated, organized campaigns supporting and engaging in this 2:39:08.920 --> 2:39:14.780 behavior and to prevent such unlawful activities. Regarding this investigation, 2:39:15.540 --> 2:39:19.480 lawyer for the defense Kevin Ryok wrote, As with Operation 2:39:19.500 --> 2:39:24.360 Puppet Master, HSI's investigation in Project Whipple Shield extended far 2:39:24.400 --> 2:39:28.180 beyond any potential threat to law enforcement safety. It concluded, 2:39:28.520 --> 2:39:32.770 with no evidence but obvious political animus, that numerous Twin 2:39:32.810 --> 2:39:37.349 Cities unions and non-profit organizations were involved in a widespread 2:39:37.390 --> 2:39:42.310 conspiracy to violate 18 U.S.C. 111, assaulting, resisting, or impeding 2:39:42.370 --> 2:39:46.900 certain officers or employees. And it surveilled and surreptitiously gathered 2:39:46.959 --> 2:39:50.600 financial records generated by these organizations, despite the lack of 2:39:50.760 --> 2:39:55.560 any clear connection between those organizations and criminal conduct, unquote. 2:39:56.440 --> 2:40:00.170 At that press conference announcing the indictment, U.S. Attorney Daniel 2:40:00.209 --> 2:40:04.970 Rosen said that Direct Action Minnesota is actually, quote, comprised 2:40:05.070 --> 2:40:09.490 of members of subgroups like the Black Cat Workers Collective, unquote. 2:40:10.310 --> 2:40:15.510 But the alleged quote-unquote subgroups extend far beyond just Black 2:40:15.670 --> 2:40:21.330 Cat Workers Collective, as evidenced by a little diagram that 2:40:21.379 --> 2:40:26.320 was presented to grand jurors for this indictment. This diagram 2:40:26.379 --> 2:40:28.920 is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. In 2:40:28.940 --> 2:40:32.200 the middle is the logo for Direct Action Minnesota, the 2:40:32.240 --> 2:40:37.260 organization that the DOJ alleges is connected to the 15 defendants. 2:40:37.820 --> 2:40:44.070 But surrounding the DAM logo is logos for 15 other organizations, 2:40:44.350 --> 2:40:49.650 all with arrows pointing towards Direct Action Minnesota and text 2:40:49.770 --> 2:40:54.350 reading council member, as if all of these organizations are 2:40:54.390 --> 2:41:00.040 sending council members to Direct Action Minnesota to plan or 2:41:00.200 --> 2:41:05.460 orchestrate the direct action's in response to Operation Metro Surge. 2:41:06.040 --> 2:41:08.280 This diagram that was presented as a slide to grand 2:41:08.360 --> 2:41:14.629 jurors is titled The Conspiracy, and the conspiring organizations are 2:41:14.690 --> 2:41:18.690 listed as Monarcha Rapid Response Line, which is one of 2:41:18.709 --> 2:41:22.290 the rapid response networks in the Twin Cities. The other 2:41:22.370 --> 2:41:28.709 organizations in this diagram, going clockwise, include Minnesota 5150, the 2:41:29.670 --> 2:41:34.480 organizers of the No Kings protests, Minnesota Ice Watch, Minnesota 2:41:34.540 --> 2:41:39.720 Association of Professional Employees, a labor union, Minneapolis Federation of Educators, 2:41:39.840 --> 2:41:44.750 Local 59, Left Jab, a self-defense group, The Grease Pit, 2:41:44.990 --> 2:41:51.170 a bike shop, Democratic Socialists of America, Black Cat Workers Collective, AFL-CIO, Workers' 2:41:51.270 --> 2:41:57.370 Solidarity Circle, Whipple Watch, Veterans for Peace, Socialist Alternative, Showing 2:41:57.410 --> 2:42:02.810 Up for Racial Justice, SCIU 26, Red Pine Revolutionary Collective, 2:42:03.230 --> 2:42:08.570 and Ray Rainbolt Memorial Gun Club. HSI agent Desmond Garcia 2:42:09.170 --> 2:42:13.189 testified to the grand jury regarding this slide, quote, This 2:42:13.209 --> 2:42:16.010 is kind of a breakdown, like I mentioned earlier, with 2:42:16.090 --> 2:42:20.709 members of DAM being associated with other organizations. Through the 2:42:20.750 --> 2:42:24.189 course of the investigation, this is just a snapshot of 2:42:24.209 --> 2:42:27.690 some of the other organizations that members are affiliated with. 2:42:28.120 --> 2:42:32.360 that kind of comprise and make up Direct Action Minnesota, unquote. 2:42:33.100 --> 2:42:35.060 This is one of the funniest things I've ever seen 2:42:35.660 --> 2:42:40.270 and provides really, really useful insight into how HSI is 2:42:40.830 --> 2:42:46.949 imagining the organizational structure of these protests, that all these 2:42:46.990 --> 2:42:52.810 organizations are sending, quote-unquote, council members to this more secretive group, 2:42:52.930 --> 2:42:57.550 Direct Action Minnesota, that orchestrates the most radical parts of 2:42:57.610 --> 2:43:02.270 the anti-ICE protests. Regarding this diagram slide, the lawyer for 2:43:02.290 --> 2:43:05.800 the defense wrote, If any individual was connected to both 2:43:06.010 --> 2:43:09.740 DAM and any of these entities, the government considers the 2:43:09.840 --> 2:43:14.220 entities to be conspiring. Fueled by visions of this vast 2:43:14.280 --> 2:43:20.100 and irrational conspiracy, HSI surreptitiously obtained financial records of labor 2:43:20.230 --> 2:43:23.560 unions and non-profit organizations as a part of a quote-unquote, 2:43:23.680 --> 2:43:31.240 financial investigation into, quote, domestic terrorist financing, unquote. And let's 2:43:31.260 --> 2:43:35.360 go over the financial probe aspect of this investigation. One 2:43:35.379 --> 2:43:40.129 of the reports uncovered through Discovery revealed that HSI secretly 2:43:40.170 --> 2:43:44.830 subpoenaed three years' worth of financial records from SEIU, one 2:43:44.870 --> 2:43:48.050 of the biggest labor unions in the country, largely focused 2:43:48.110 --> 2:43:51.589 on organizing the healthcare, public service, and service work sectors. 2:43:52.500 --> 2:43:55.860 Last March, HSI agents served an administrative summons, or an 2:43:56.060 --> 2:44:01.570 administrative subpoena, to Fedwire to obtain wire transfers involving SCIU. 2:44:02.360 --> 2:44:04.550 The wire transfers that the Federal Reserve Bank of New 2:44:04.570 --> 2:44:07.730 York gave over to DHS range from January 1, 2023 2:44:07.730 --> 2:44:09.689 to March 19, 2026. To quote the HSI report, quote, 2:44:15.740 --> 2:44:19.560 Beginning in December, HSI St. Paul began a multifaceted approach 2:44:19.600 --> 2:44:22.700 to identify and investigate individuals engaged in acts of violence, 2:44:22.720 --> 2:44:25.900 destruction of federal property, intimidation of federal officers and employees, 2:44:26.360 --> 2:44:30.310 and attempts to impede federal operations. Through this investigation, HSI St. 2:44:30.330 --> 2:44:33.150 Paul has identified a network of individuals operating online and 2:44:33.190 --> 2:44:35.710 in person who are engaged in this behavior by either 2:44:35.750 --> 2:44:42.170 directly participating or by providing support through fundraising, planning, and organization. 2:44:42.790 --> 2:44:47.789 The following report of investigation provides preliminary cursory details related 2:44:47.970 --> 2:44:51.619 to wire transfers from various financial institutions to and from 2:44:52.020 --> 2:44:56.800 Service Employees International Union, main financial institution, the U.S. Bank 2:44:56.920 --> 2:45:02.730 of Minneapolis, Minnesota, unquote. And what did this investigation find? 2:45:03.350 --> 2:45:03.590 Well. 2:45:04.090 --> 2:45:08.830 a quote-unquote preliminary analysis of the wire transfers, quote, revealed 2:45:08.950 --> 2:45:13.539 that the SEIU National Union has numerous wire transactions to 2:45:13.600 --> 2:45:17.879 and from SEIU local unions for various types of debits 2:45:18.120 --> 2:45:23.920 and credits to include annuity payments, strike payments, strike supplies, investments, 2:45:24.500 --> 2:45:30.590 union member dues, retiree dues, medical expenses, and pension fund expenses, unquote. 2:45:31.250 --> 2:45:34.330 So they found nothing. They just looked through three years 2:45:35.070 --> 2:45:40.000 of financial records from SCIU and only found regular transactions 2:45:40.060 --> 2:45:44.000 that a union would have. They found absolutely nothing. And 2:45:44.160 --> 2:45:48.860 this report ends with this incredible sentence, quote, this financial 2:45:48.959 --> 2:45:54.070 investigation involving protest domestic terrorist financing continues. 2:45:55.060 --> 2:45:55.590 Sure, dude. 2:45:55.640 --> 2:45:57.240 Yeah, I'm sure it's going to continue. I'm sure it's 2:45:57.260 --> 2:46:01.160 going to continue to find nothing. Because in the 95-page 2:46:01.200 --> 2:46:04.939 indictment against these 15 defendants, one of the frequently recurring 2:46:04.980 --> 2:46:07.879 topics in the overt acts and furtherance of the conspiracy 2:46:08.760 --> 2:46:12.150 is discussing how they don't have any money, how they're 2:46:12.310 --> 2:46:16.690 constantly trying to fundraise to help continue the anti-ICE protests. 2:46:17.390 --> 2:46:21.369 The indictment outlines them consistently struggling to to pull together $ 5, 000. 2:46:21.250 --> 2:46:25.000 But yeah, sure, let me make a few calls to 2:46:25.010 --> 2:46:27.939 the SEIU real quick. I'm sure they'll just wire transfer 2:46:28.040 --> 2:46:30.860 over the money. And the other thing is that this 2:46:31.200 --> 2:46:35.760 three-year time span of the financial probe stretches way longer 2:46:36.020 --> 2:46:40.660 than Operation Metro Surge and the protests surrounding ICE activists 2:46:40.800 --> 2:46:43.840 in the Twin Cities. Because what's actually going on here, 2:46:43.920 --> 2:46:47.190 and to the Fed's own admission, is that they're just 2:46:47.230 --> 2:46:52.760 enacting NSPM-7. using whatever pretext they can concoct to dig 2:46:52.800 --> 2:46:56.580 through the finances of entities and organizations that they view 2:46:56.760 --> 2:47:01.220 as political enemies. And it wasn't just SCIU. HSI also 2:47:01.260 --> 2:47:04.530 obtained three years' worth of bank records for the Communication 2:47:04.550 --> 2:47:09.010 Workers of America, including donations and PAC spending. The CWA 2:47:09.190 --> 2:47:12.510 union represents thousands of journalists and print and broadcast news 2:47:12.550 --> 2:47:15.740 workers in the U.S. and Canada. And as a part 2:47:15.760 --> 2:47:19.210 of this financial probe, HSI obtained records for one of 2:47:19.230 --> 2:47:22.700 the Canadian branches of this union, the International Federation of 2:47:22.740 --> 2:47:27.080 Professional and Technical Engineers, with the administrative summons requesting information 2:47:27.459 --> 2:47:31.710 from the Bank of Montreal. This very same summons also 2:47:31.750 --> 2:47:35.010 demanded three years worth of financial records from the environmental 2:47:35.110 --> 2:47:39.109 activist organization Sunrise Movement and the Sunrise Movement Educational Fund. 2:47:39.510 --> 2:47:42.580 And as we will discuss, HSI was also actively surveilling 2:47:42.950 --> 2:47:47.360 Sunrise meetings in Minnesota. Now, HSI also subpoenaed financial records 2:47:47.400 --> 2:47:49.980 from at least one other entity that we know of, 2:47:50.320 --> 2:47:54.500 a local Minneapolis activist organization called Voices for Racial Justice. 2:47:55.260 --> 2:47:58.580 But rather than bank records and wire transfers, HSI went 2:47:58.730 --> 2:48:03.560 after PayPal and Venmo transactions. Voices for Racial Justice was 2:48:03.700 --> 2:48:07.840 founded in 1993 and describes itself as the longest-running racial 2:48:07.900 --> 2:48:12.410 justice organizing training organization in the state of Minnesota. The 2:48:12.440 --> 2:48:16.930 DHS investigative report regarding the subpoena into the organization says 2:48:16.990 --> 2:48:21.570 that the website for Voices of Racial Justice, quote, boasts 2:48:21.750 --> 2:48:26.670 several articles on Ice Out and or Truth, Freedom, and 2:48:26.890 --> 2:48:30.800 Ice Out of Minnesota. Their website also provides links to 2:48:30.900 --> 2:48:36.040 Defend the 612, Minneapolis St. Paul Whistles, and Monarcho Rapid 2:48:36.080 --> 2:48:38.220 Response for upcoming trainings. 2:48:38.620 --> 2:48:39.040 Unquote. 2:48:39.879 --> 2:48:44.039 That's basically the entire justification DHS gives for probing into 2:48:44.100 --> 2:48:48.500 the donations and Venmo and PayPal records for this racial 2:48:48.540 --> 2:48:55.019 justice organization. That their website, hosts links to other anti-ICE organizations. 2:48:56.120 --> 2:49:00.140 Defense attorney Kevin Ryok wrote, quote, this broad coalition of 2:49:00.200 --> 2:49:05.140 financial records of labor and social justice advocacy organizations done 2:49:05.320 --> 2:49:09.440 in secret and with no articulable criminal predicate violates both 2:49:09.480 --> 2:49:12.520 the First Amendment and these organizations' right to financial privacy. 2:49:13.070 --> 2:49:16.050 It also reflects a sinister turn in our democracy and 2:49:16.470 --> 2:49:19.769 when the party in power feels no compunction about peering 2:49:19.830 --> 2:49:24.030 into the private finances of its political opponents, collecting that information, 2:49:24.490 --> 2:49:29.170 and storing it away for further use. The lawyer also notes, quote, 2:49:29.730 --> 2:49:33.010 among other problems, the use of the administrative summons seems 2:49:33.050 --> 2:49:35.949 to violate the Right to Financial Privacy Act, which requires 2:49:36.010 --> 2:49:38.890 law enforcement to provide notice to the account holder if 2:49:38.930 --> 2:49:42.940 they are trying to obtain bank records via administrative subpoena. Here, 2:49:43.100 --> 2:49:46.460 not only did DHS hide these inquiries from the account holders, 2:49:47.220 --> 2:49:51.020 it told responding financial institutions, quote, you are requested not 2:49:51.060 --> 2:49:53.560 to disclose the existence of this summons for an indefinite 2:49:53.580 --> 2:49:56.580 period of time. Any such disclosure will impede the investigation 2:49:56.670 --> 2:49:59.930 and thereby interfere with the enforcement of federal law, unquote. 2:50:00.650 --> 2:50:03.710 Though the federal government would likely argue that HSI's use 2:50:03.770 --> 2:50:07.150 of the administrative subpoenas without notice would fall under some 2:50:07.170 --> 2:50:10.390 of the exceptions within the Right to Financial Privacy Act. 2:50:11.350 --> 2:50:14.530 Most reporting I've seen on this batch of discovery has 2:50:14.970 --> 2:50:18.930 focused on the financial probing of unions and activist organizations. 2:50:19.110 --> 2:50:21.990 And yeah, that is a big deal. That is very 2:50:22.050 --> 2:50:25.670 serious and deserves a lot of focus. But most of 2:50:25.720 --> 2:50:30.340 the investigative reports released as a part of discovery pertain 2:50:30.379 --> 2:50:36.500 to HSI undercover operations, surveillance and infiltration of anti-ICE organizing 2:50:36.680 --> 2:50:39.340 in the Twin Cities. And there is a lot of 2:50:39.420 --> 2:50:43.680 interesting information in there. that explains why the 90-something page 2:50:43.760 --> 2:50:47.379 indictment is like that, why it has transcriptions of so 2:50:47.420 --> 2:50:52.860 many regular in-person conversations and text logs from Signal. To 2:50:52.900 --> 2:50:57.600 quote defense lawyer Kevin Ryok, undercover HSI agents posing as 2:50:57.660 --> 2:51:02.610 protesters or activists surveilled community meetings at churches, parks, libraries, 2:51:02.850 --> 2:51:07.709 union halls, schools, and restaurants. Undercover agents secretly made audio 2:51:07.870 --> 2:51:12.039 and video recordings of those meetings, unquote. And now I 2:51:12.140 --> 2:51:16.240 want to quote from one of the HSI reports regarding 2:51:16.280 --> 2:51:21.289 their use of undercovers. Quote, prior to the initiation of 2:51:21.530 --> 2:51:26.470 Operation Puppet Master, HSI deployed an undercover agent to participate 2:51:26.490 --> 2:51:30.330 in both virtual and in-person meetings within the Twin Cities area. 2:51:31.010 --> 2:51:34.400 The objective of these activities was to gather intelligence regarding 2:51:34.510 --> 2:51:38.450 any organized networks of conspirators or operating online and in person, 2:51:38.629 --> 2:51:42.250 who may be providing material support to violent opportunists and 2:51:42.290 --> 2:51:46.180 individuals engaged in impeding federal law enforcement, rioting, destruction of 2:51:46.190 --> 2:51:49.220 federal property, and assaults on federal agents and officers, unquote. 2:51:49.640 --> 2:51:54.740 So before Operation Puppet Master even started in January, the 2:51:54.860 --> 2:51:59.840 month prior, HSI already had an undercover digging into the 2:51:59.980 --> 2:52:06.440 anti-ICE protests. In reports, this undercover is identified as 9843, 2:52:06.879 --> 2:52:10.599 And he started out by attending a virtual ice watch 2:52:10.720 --> 2:52:14.300 training on December 3rd, put on by a group called 2:52:14.520 --> 2:52:18.300 States at the Core and a Chicago-based org called Protect 2:52:18.540 --> 2:52:22.480 Rogers Park. A few days later, the agent, quote unquote, 2:52:22.740 --> 2:52:28.100 acting in an undercover capacity, attended a publicly advertised in-person 2:52:28.379 --> 2:52:32.940 legal observer training in Richfield, Minnesota. During the training, the 2:52:33.140 --> 2:52:37.810 agent joined a rapid response network sponsored by a Minneapolis-based 2:52:37.870 --> 2:52:42.670 community defense group called Monarcha via a QR code. On 2:52:42.690 --> 2:52:48.200 December 13th, The Undercover attended a Sunrise Movement action training 2:52:48.440 --> 2:52:52.480 called How to Stop Ice and Build the Revolution at 2:52:52.600 --> 2:52:57.240 a Universalist church in Minneapolis. After this meeting, The Undercover 2:52:57.280 --> 2:53:00.910 was added to the group's announcement chat and started messaging 2:53:01.209 --> 2:53:04.810 one of the organizers, about how people are verifying which 2:53:04.890 --> 2:53:08.670 hotels ICE agents were staying at. A few days later, 2:53:09.129 --> 2:53:14.089 the undercover reviewed a website with info, toolkits, and signal 2:53:14.129 --> 2:53:20.560 links for ICE rapid response called Defend612. com. 612 is the 2:53:20.690 --> 2:53:25.660 Minneapolis area code. On December 22nd, the undercover participated in 2:53:25.820 --> 2:53:30.320 a Sunrise Zoom meeting about a then-upcoming protest in front 2:53:30.400 --> 2:53:34.710 of the Hampton Inn housing ICE agents. Per the investigative 2:53:34.750 --> 2:53:39.730 report detailing undercover operations prior to the creation of Operation 2:53:39.750 --> 2:53:44.330 Puppet Master, during this Sunrise Zoom meeting, the undercover agent 2:53:44.410 --> 2:53:48.110 learned that there were, quote, multiple signal chats dedicated to 2:53:48.129 --> 2:53:52.610 the hotel scouting and license plate gathering. The gathering is 2:53:52.629 --> 2:53:56.810 a collaborative effort with, quote-unquote, Whipple Watch, the known agitator 2:53:56.830 --> 2:54:03.020 group stationed outside the Whipple building. HSI undercover agent 9843 2:54:03.020 --> 2:54:05.540 was added by the team leader for the quote-unquote action 2:54:05.580 --> 2:54:11.360 team to this signal chat group, unquote. So beyond joining 2:54:11.700 --> 2:54:15.320 public signal chats, it appears the main way this undercover 2:54:15.360 --> 2:54:18.240 was able to worm his way into more private chats 2:54:18.320 --> 2:54:23.820 regarding Whipple Watch was through attending Sunrise Movement meetings. In 2:54:23.840 --> 2:54:27.459 the motion outlining this batch of discovery, the lawyer for 2:54:27.480 --> 2:54:32.459 the defense noted, quote, undercover agents actively participated in organizing 2:54:32.740 --> 2:54:37.060 and directing the groups they were surveilling, at times working 2:54:37.180 --> 2:54:42.720 to entice people into discussing or committing crimes, unquote. The 2:54:42.760 --> 2:54:46.560 main example of this in these documents is another Sunrise 2:54:46.620 --> 2:54:51.970 Movement meeting from late January titled Resistance Skills Training, held 2:54:52.190 --> 2:54:56.289 at the Minneapolis Public Library. Two undercovers attended this training, 2:54:56.890 --> 2:55:00.950 and the investigative report details about 25 people in quote-unquote 2:55:01.080 --> 2:55:07.440 breakout sessions focused on recruiting, action, and de-escalation. The report 2:55:07.500 --> 2:55:12.480 notes that Sunrise recommends using quote, police liaisons and protest 2:55:12.580 --> 2:55:18.400 safety marshals. The quote-unquote action section discussed sit-ins and the 2:55:18.500 --> 2:55:23.480 protests outside hotels, with HSI noting in the report quote, 2:55:24.020 --> 2:55:27.040 it was made clear that the Sunrise Movement organization focused 2:55:27.140 --> 2:55:32.350 on quote-unquote peaceful protests. Regardless of that, one of the 2:55:32.470 --> 2:55:37.949 undercovers at this meeting quote-unquote privately informed someone that he 2:55:37.990 --> 2:55:41.730 works in construction and could quote, build items that might 2:55:41.850 --> 2:55:47.240 assist other groups with more quote-unquote direct action protests, unquote. 2:55:48.060 --> 2:55:51.640 And the undercover also told this person at the meeting 2:55:51.660 --> 2:55:55.560 that that going to jail quote-unquote did not bother him. 2:55:56.260 --> 2:56:00.920 So two undercovers attended this Sunrise Movement meeting discussing peaceful 2:56:01.000 --> 2:56:04.289 protests and noted that in the report, but still tried 2:56:04.330 --> 2:56:08.830 to talk to attendees about quote-unquote building items to assist 2:56:08.910 --> 2:56:12.810 in direct action protests and that they're okay with going 2:56:12.850 --> 2:56:16.330 to jail because of it. We'll talk more about how 2:56:16.490 --> 2:56:20.710 undercover HSI agents began their infiltration after this ad break. 2:56:32.020 --> 2:56:36.949 Welcome back. The main undercover HSI agent who started to 2:56:37.050 --> 2:56:41.850 infiltrate the protests in December of 2025, who's identified in 2:56:42.129 --> 2:56:48.330 reports as undercover 9843, also operated a signal account with 2:56:48.350 --> 2:56:52.900 the screen name Peanut Butter Jelly. And according to the defense, 2:56:53.300 --> 2:56:57.680 this undercover, quote, routinely exchanged signal messages with people regarding 2:56:58.020 --> 2:57:02.970 purely First Amendment protected conduct. messaging participants in the Art 2:57:03.190 --> 2:57:08.290 Money Comms Club signal chat and stating, quote, also the 2:57:08.430 --> 2:57:12.000 interested in the financial world. organizing piece. I like numbers 2:57:12.060 --> 2:57:15.840 and data. And marrying that together with propaganda. So would 2:57:15.920 --> 2:57:20.500 love to work on both sides of these groups. Unquote. Yeah, 2:57:20.820 --> 2:57:24.879 I am sure you're interested in the financial organizing piece. Yeah, 2:57:25.020 --> 2:57:27.760 I bet. I like numbers and data. 2:57:28.400 --> 2:57:28.959 Incredible. 2:57:29.930 --> 2:57:34.450 The interested in the financial organizing piece. Also, as a 2:57:34.470 --> 2:57:39.129 part of Discovery, we've learned that the undercover discussed fundraising 2:57:39.250 --> 2:57:44.230 messaging strategies and offered to draft fundraising language for Twin 2:57:44.270 --> 2:57:48.430 Cities Direct Action and design a protest flyer. One message 2:57:48.490 --> 2:57:52.810 with the undercover using the screen name Peanut Butter Jelly reads, 2:57:53.550 --> 2:57:56.350 I'm sure you're swamped with the speaking tour, but do 2:57:56.370 --> 2:57:59.670 you have a suggestion for a donation platform? I believe 2:57:59.850 --> 2:58:02.570 open collective and the idea of asking our own banks 2:58:02.730 --> 2:58:08.740 was discussed, unquote. According to the defense, these new discovery 2:58:08.770 --> 2:58:14.660 documents also detail how Undercover's, quote, routinely surveilled individuals engaged 2:58:14.800 --> 2:58:18.880 solely in First Amendment protected activity, including the Whipple watch 2:58:18.940 --> 2:58:22.860 group that engaged in peaceful observation of ICE vehicle activity 2:58:23.260 --> 2:58:26.179 in and out of the Whipple building. conduct that both 2:58:26.300 --> 2:58:32.350 Judge Mendez and Chief Judge Schiltz have confirmed is not unlawful, unquote. 2:58:33.250 --> 2:58:37.670 One of the DHS investigative reports details how agents captured 2:58:37.770 --> 2:58:42.150 the license plate information of anti-ice protesters attending a Twin 2:58:42.190 --> 2:58:46.279 Cities Direct Action quote-unquote art club meeting at the Prince 2:58:46.320 --> 2:58:50.480 of Peace Lutheran Church. In the report, the undercover who 2:58:50.600 --> 2:58:55.770 infiltrated this meeting, quote, described the meeting as democratic in 2:58:55.850 --> 2:59:00.390 nature in the sense that everyone talked over each other, unquote. 2:59:01.150 --> 2:59:04.750 The undercover also noted how most of the meeting discussed 2:59:05.150 --> 2:59:10.429 fundraising and how to make social media agitprop. But while 2:59:10.490 --> 2:59:15.850 he was attending this meeting, other HSI agents documented the 2:59:15.980 --> 2:59:21.140 license plates of attendees. According to the defense, quote, Agents 2:59:21.170 --> 2:59:24.380 then used this information to obtain the names of the attendees, 2:59:24.800 --> 2:59:28.380 searched social media for pictures of these individuals, and compiled 2:59:28.540 --> 2:59:33.500 an intel workup that included names, photos, addresses, personal information, 2:59:33.800 --> 2:59:37.769 including family and employment information, and vehicle registration information for 2:59:37.930 --> 2:59:41.910 each meeting attendee. None of these individuals did anything other 2:59:41.950 --> 2:59:45.410 than engage in protected First Amendment speech in a church 2:59:45.490 --> 2:59:49.789 meeting room. Yet, now their personal information is memorialized in 2:59:49.830 --> 2:59:54.840 a DHS dossier, unquote. The best idea why HSI decided 2:59:54.860 --> 2:59:58.880 to zero in on the group of individuals allegedly associated 2:59:58.980 --> 3:00:03.700 with Direct Action Minnesota, or formerly called Twin Cities Direct Action, 3:00:04.570 --> 3:00:09.110 relates to a meeting held in early January. If you recall, 3:00:09.129 --> 3:00:14.990 HSI undercover 9843 was added to the Whipple Watch signal 3:00:15.030 --> 3:00:19.690 chat after attending a few Sunrise Movement meetings. And according 3:00:19.890 --> 3:00:24.590 to investigative reports, on January 10th, an undercover agent received 3:00:24.690 --> 3:00:29.010 a flyer in the Whipple Watch chat for an upcoming 3:00:29.250 --> 3:00:33.470 emergency meeting on the 11th. Remember, this was three days 3:00:33.709 --> 3:00:37.789 after the killing of Renee Good. The undercover got permission 3:00:37.890 --> 3:00:41.760 to attend this emergency meeting and was quote-unquote vouched by 3:00:41.860 --> 3:00:46.560 one of the defendants, Isaac Sant, identified in chats as Ike. 3:00:47.640 --> 3:00:50.619 This emergency meeting was to share plans of an upcoming 3:00:50.700 --> 3:00:55.420 protest on July 23rd. And the HSI report claims that 3:00:55.860 --> 3:01:00.480 this meeting is where Twin Cities Direct Action emerged from, 3:01:01.100 --> 3:01:03.920 as that was the name of the signal chat created 3:01:04.100 --> 3:01:07.470 at the end of this meeting, and the Twin Cities 3:01:07.490 --> 3:01:11.330 Direct Action logo was first used on a flyer for 3:01:11.390 --> 3:01:15.990 this upcoming protest. On January 19th, the undercover surveilled and 3:01:16.010 --> 3:01:20.510 attended a follow-up meeting at a local restaurant in North Minneapolis, 3:01:20.950 --> 3:01:25.830 hosted by SEIU 26 and Socialist Alternative, to plan this 3:01:26.030 --> 3:01:29.879 action on the 23rd, which was then identified as a 3:01:30.030 --> 3:01:34.440 general strike. The HSI report describes this meeting as a, quote, 3:01:35.000 --> 3:01:38.660 general discussion on the upcoming Walk Out on Ice event 3:01:39.000 --> 3:01:41.140 being held on January 23rd. 3:01:41.980 --> 3:01:43.500 And as usual, this. 3:01:43.420 --> 3:01:47.200 Report doesn't actually allude to anything illegal being discussed in 3:01:47.260 --> 3:01:51.300 this meeting. And this strike and march action later took 3:01:51.379 --> 3:01:54.990 place on January 23rd and was attended by tens of 3:01:55.050 --> 3:01:58.830 thousands of people. Planning such an action is an ordinary 3:01:58.910 --> 3:02:03.700 protected First Amendment act. Around this point, and especially following 3:02:03.740 --> 3:02:07.440 the killing of Alex Preddy, DHS started really ramping up 3:02:07.740 --> 3:02:12.650 the surveillance and infiltration of anti-ICE protests in the Twin Cities. 3:02:13.570 --> 3:02:18.910 They started using multiple undercover agents, not just 9843, and 3:02:18.950 --> 3:02:21.850 began surveilling and trying to infiltrate many more types of 3:02:21.910 --> 3:02:25.990 protest beyond what was organized by Twin Cities Direct Action. 3:02:26.590 --> 3:02:30.280 Two HSI reports detail surveillance of individuals and groups attending 3:02:30.300 --> 3:02:34.990 protests the No Kings protests, and an anti-war protest last March. 3:02:35.610 --> 3:02:38.610 The report on the Stop the War in Iran protest 3:02:38.800 --> 3:02:45.060 held on March 7th specifically mentions 5150, Veterans for Peace, Sunrise, 3:02:45.180 --> 3:02:50.900 and PSL. To quote the report, Undercover 5022 and Undercover 3:02:50.900 --> 3:02:54.879 137 did not have extended interactions with any members of 3:02:54.900 --> 3:02:59.040 the crowd. Many people were also not identifiable slash recognizable 3:02:59.200 --> 3:03:03.270 due to wearing face coverings. Undercover 5022 observed that during 3:03:03.290 --> 3:03:07.700 the event, several people appeared to be conducting event overwatch 3:03:07.900 --> 3:03:12.320 or quote-unquote marshalling. They were wearing reflective vests, were wearing 3:03:12.420 --> 3:03:16.200 red hats, and carried radios. They were located at the 3:03:16.379 --> 3:03:20.020 edges of the crowd. Investigative note. While testifying to the 3:03:20.120 --> 3:03:22.480 grand jury, Agent Garcia claimed that every single individual being 3:03:22.600 --> 3:03:47.020 investigated has criminal predicate. Quote, One of the things that 3:03:47.060 --> 3:03:49.500 is abundantly clear, not only in guidance, but it's just 3:03:49.620 --> 3:03:53.109 principles as far as this investigation is, no one is 3:03:53.410 --> 3:03:57.650 ever investigated or looked at or even researched on for 3:03:57.750 --> 3:04:01.709 First Amendment protected activities. Every single individual that we have investigated, 3:04:02.070 --> 3:04:06.150 there is criminal predicate to why we are investigating them. 3:04:06.770 --> 3:04:09.870 Either statements that they have made that are criminal to 3:04:09.890 --> 3:04:14.870 their actual participation in overt criminal acts, unquote. Now, to 3:04:14.950 --> 3:04:18.029 quote the lawyer for the defense, of course, as the 3:04:18.160 --> 3:04:23.439 above examples demonstrate, HSI was obtaining wide swaths of financial 3:04:23.480 --> 3:04:28.740 data from labor unions and non-profits with zero quote-unquote criminal predicate. 3:04:29.459 --> 3:04:35.310 Undercover agents captured dozens of First Amendment-protected conversations on surreptitious recordings, 3:04:36.030 --> 3:04:39.230 many of which did not involve any of the defendants 3:04:39.430 --> 3:04:44.539 or unindicted co-conspirators in this case. Agent Garcia's statement is 3:04:44.640 --> 3:04:48.599 simply not true, unquote. And yeah, I don't know how 3:04:48.680 --> 3:04:51.930 you can think after considering all the examples I've just 3:04:52.010 --> 3:04:58.050 read that HSI had criminal predicate for every single organization 3:04:58.270 --> 3:05:03.080 or person that was under investigation or surveillance. That's just 3:05:03.140 --> 3:05:06.300 a lie. Because if they had criminal predicate, they would 3:05:06.360 --> 3:05:10.210 be charged. there would be charges against more people. There 3:05:10.430 --> 3:05:13.930 could be charges against some of those other 15 conspiring 3:05:14.010 --> 3:05:18.330 organizations in that diagram shown to the grand jury. Oh, 3:05:18.370 --> 3:05:22.379 and by the way, the DOJ lawyer who convened this 3:05:22.430 --> 3:05:26.720 grand jury, Deputy Attorney General Brian Lynch, was also a 3:05:27.080 --> 3:05:32.720 January 6th insurrectionist who entered a restricted zone alongside other rioters. 3:05:33.500 --> 3:05:36.800 And as this indictment was being put together, the government 3:05:36.959 --> 3:05:41.100 forced the court to vacate the convictions against Oath Keepers 3:05:41.280 --> 3:05:45.209 involved in January 6th. This grand jury was literally put 3:05:45.270 --> 3:05:50.150 together by a January 6th insurrectionist to indict protesters for 3:05:50.650 --> 3:05:54.770 conspiracy to impede. At the exact same time, the federal 3:05:54.790 --> 3:06:00.920 government was vacating convictions of other January 6th insurrectionists. The 3:06:00.950 --> 3:06:02.859 last thing I want to note about this batch of 3:06:02.920 --> 3:06:09.090 discovery is how it also details instances of counter-surveillance. In 3:06:09.290 --> 3:06:13.290 one report, a self-described community member walks up to a 3:06:13.430 --> 3:06:18.289 government vehicle containing HSI agents conducting surveillance, also staged to 3:06:18.390 --> 3:06:23.110 support an undercover infiltrating an event, and the community member 3:06:23.330 --> 3:06:26.330 asks the agents inside if they are ICE. They say 3:06:26.430 --> 3:06:29.200 no and point to a safety vest and a helmet 3:06:29.340 --> 3:06:33.779 in the vehicle. The community member then responds by saying, okay, 3:06:34.320 --> 3:06:36.080 and then tells them that he'll have to run the 3:06:36.120 --> 3:06:41.500 vehicle's plates to check. DHS investigative reports also detail people 3:06:41.720 --> 3:06:45.920 at meetings warning that ICE could be trying to infiltrate 3:06:46.280 --> 3:06:50.010 those very meetings and telling all the attendees to not 3:06:50.129 --> 3:06:54.269 say anything that they wouldn't say directly to an ICE agent, 3:06:54.670 --> 3:06:57.289 which is really good advice when that meeting is being 3:06:57.330 --> 3:07:01.080 attended by an ICE agent and one of the funnier 3:07:01.240 --> 3:07:04.939 investigative notes in this batch of discovery relates to an 3:07:05.000 --> 3:07:10.080 undercover's infiltration of a self-defense workshop. Quote, Due to the 3:07:10.160 --> 3:07:15.730 physicality of the event, undercover 5022's concealed body-worn audio recorder 3:07:16.310 --> 3:07:20.190 erroneously fell to the floor of the gymnasium near the 3:07:20.330 --> 3:07:23.970 end of the training. The undercover briefly left the gymnasium, 3:07:24.430 --> 3:07:28.140 realized she no longer had the device, and returned to 3:07:28.160 --> 3:07:31.580 the gymnasium to retrieve the device from the floor. During 3:07:31.640 --> 3:07:35.119 these approximately three minutes, the undercover was not present in 3:07:35.140 --> 3:07:39.170 the gymnasium. So... While this batch of discovery has given 3:07:39.230 --> 3:07:42.510 us a closer look at the extent of the surveillance 3:07:42.629 --> 3:07:46.790 of anti-ice protests and HSI's method of investigation, the government 3:07:46.850 --> 3:07:49.910 did not hand over everything. It was supposed to as 3:07:49.950 --> 3:07:53.980 a part of discovery. And the lawyers are requesting more documents. 3:07:54.450 --> 3:07:57.280 This batch of discovery is missing, among other things, quote, 3:07:57.980 --> 3:08:01.379 special reports of investigation that the government has admitted withholding, 3:08:01.800 --> 3:08:04.880 claiming that they're unrelated to this investigation, even though they 3:08:04.900 --> 3:08:07.990 were created and filed within it. The disclosures admit to 3:08:08.150 --> 3:08:12.690 any investigative reports that document HSI's domestic surveillance, but were 3:08:12.750 --> 3:08:16.410 placed in other case files. They admit documents and communications 3:08:16.450 --> 3:08:20.270 related to the initiation and supervision of HSI's undercover operations, 3:08:20.780 --> 3:08:24.340 and they admit downloads of the undercover phones and undercover 3:08:24.379 --> 3:08:27.640 laptops used by undercover agents in this case to communicate 3:08:27.680 --> 3:08:31.480 with the defendants and others, unquote. And those documents are 3:08:31.620 --> 3:08:34.290 useful not just to us, so we know how these 3:08:34.310 --> 3:08:37.690 investigations are being carried out, but also for the defense, 3:08:38.350 --> 3:08:42.240 because reports of government surveillance of protesters and activists during 3:08:42.459 --> 3:08:45.920 Metro's surge are relevant to the defendant's motion for, quote, 3:08:46.420 --> 3:08:51.440 selective prosecution and outrageous government conduct, as they constitute additional 3:08:51.480 --> 3:08:54.500 evidence of DHS targeting individuals based on their political beliefs 3:08:54.920 --> 3:08:59.360 and First Amendment-protected conduct, unquote. So yeah, that is my 3:08:59.600 --> 3:09:05.200 not-so-brief overview of this batch of discovery reports. I'll have 3:09:05.400 --> 3:09:08.860 links to the court documents below if you want to 3:09:08.940 --> 3:09:11.810 take a look yourself. And hopefully we'll get even more 3:09:11.850 --> 3:09:15.210 discovery in these next few months. See you on the 3:09:15.290 --> 3:09:30.830 other side. This is It Could Happen Here Executive Disorder, 3:09:30.970 --> 3:09:33.270 our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House. 3:09:33.790 --> 3:09:36.190 The Crumbling World and What This Means for You. I'm 3:09:36.250 --> 3:09:39.930 Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Stout, Mia Wong, 3:09:40.080 --> 3:09:45.080 Robert Evans, and special correspondent Carlos Berrios-Pilanco, who we have 3:09:45.120 --> 3:09:50.180 had on a few times for regular episodes. This episode, 3:09:50.220 --> 3:09:55.879 we are covering the week of August 19th through August 26th. Robert, 3:09:56.060 --> 3:09:57.920 do you want to start us off with our tribute? 3:09:58.420 --> 3:10:00.470 Yeah, so before we get going today, as I'm sure 3:10:00.500 --> 3:10:04.949 everyone listening is at least broadly aware, Dolly Rebecca Parton 3:10:05.030 --> 3:10:07.860 Dean passed away the day before we recorded this on 3:10:08.000 --> 3:10:13.039 August 25th, 2026. Dolly Parton was more widely beloved than 3:10:13.320 --> 3:10:16.780 pretty much anyone that was still alive in the United States. 3:10:17.320 --> 3:10:20.100 Her death was met by immediate mourning from every side 3:10:20.160 --> 3:10:23.310 of society. And I do mean every side. President Donald 3:10:23.340 --> 3:10:25.670 Trump ordered all flags to fly at half staff and 3:10:25.690 --> 3:10:28.209 issued at least as genuine a statement of respect as 3:10:28.230 --> 3:10:30.370 he's ever put out about anyone saying this is a 3:10:30.410 --> 3:10:32.650 true loss for millions of people. There has never been 3:10:32.670 --> 3:10:34.990 anyone like her and never will. It's hard to argue 3:10:35.010 --> 3:10:37.490 with that. The DSA also sent out an official in 3:10:37.510 --> 3:10:40.480 memoriam praising Parton as a hero to the working class. 3:10:40.850 --> 3:10:43.760 And you would find anyone hard pressed to genuinely disagree 3:10:43.780 --> 3:10:46.960 with that statement, too. Dolly was born in a one 3:10:47.020 --> 3:10:49.900 room cabin in Tennessee, the fourth of 12 children of 3:10:49.940 --> 3:10:52.959 a dirt poor and illiterate sharecropper. She wrote more than 3:10:52.959 --> 3:10:56.390 3000 songs in her life and had 44 career top 3:10:56.390 --> 3:10:59.890 10 country albums, which is nuts. But I wouldn't be 3:10:59.930 --> 3:11:02.130 talking about Dolly on this show, which does not do 3:11:02.190 --> 3:11:05.010 obituaries as a rule, if she'd just been a rags-to-riches 3:11:05.030 --> 3:11:08.459 entertainment industry success story. Dolly had the good luck to 3:11:08.500 --> 3:11:10.920 become rich and famous, and she would always emphasize that 3:11:11.000 --> 3:11:12.959 luck had a lot to do with it, even though 3:11:12.980 --> 3:11:15.680 she worked very hard. And she grew up poor enough 3:11:15.700 --> 3:11:17.970 that she never, ever forgot that had things been a 3:11:17.990 --> 3:11:21.029 little different, she would have stayed dirt poor. So she 3:11:21.090 --> 3:11:23.410 dedicated her life and her fortune to helping the least 3:11:23.450 --> 3:11:27.390 fortunate in our society. Parton established the Dollywood Foundation to 3:11:27.430 --> 3:11:31.330 improve education in Sevier County, Tennessee, and in participating classes, 3:11:31.370 --> 3:11:35.250 the dropout rate fell from 35% to 6%. She founded 3:11:35.270 --> 3:11:39.090 the Imagination Library, her best-known charity, and donated her 100 3:11:39.090 --> 3:11:43.030 millionth free book to children in 2018. She helped build 3:11:43.090 --> 3:11:46.530 hospitals and universities and was the single highest dollar donor 3:11:46.580 --> 3:11:50.470 to research that created the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine. When getting 3:11:50.510 --> 3:11:54.189 vaccinated became a political hot-button issue, Dolly posted a video 3:11:54.220 --> 3:11:57.039 of herself taking the vaccine and performed a cover of 3:11:57.060 --> 3:12:01.060 her own song, Jolene, themed after getting vaccinated. She was 3:12:01.120 --> 3:12:05.160 also a longtime and vocal advocate for queer people. In 1990, 3:12:05.160 --> 3:12:07.990 The Sun, a British magazine, found out that her Hollywood 3:12:08.050 --> 3:12:11.510 chauffeur was a trans man named Jason Pirro. They interviewed him, 3:12:11.629 --> 3:12:13.930 and he told the magazine, Dolly has been good to me. 3:12:14.110 --> 3:12:16.870 I'm not real comfortable talking about myself. Dolly knows all 3:12:16.930 --> 3:12:19.730 about me and is a very nice lady. Even back 3:12:19.770 --> 3:12:23.090 in the 90s, Dolly Parton was comfortable openly supporting trans 3:12:23.129 --> 3:12:25.930 people and the rest of the queer community. Her song Family, 3:12:26.010 --> 3:12:29.289 released in 1991, is probably the first country music song 3:12:29.310 --> 3:12:31.500 to use the word gay, certainly the first to use 3:12:31.510 --> 3:12:34.320 it in like a positive sense of the word. And 3:12:34.360 --> 3:12:36.840 she had queer and trans employees as far back as 3:12:36.879 --> 3:12:40.590 the early 90s and talked openly about that. In 2016, 3:12:40.580 --> 3:12:42.840 she was interviewed by Chris as a party for Pride 3:12:42.879 --> 3:12:45.580 Source and said, I have many gays and lesbians in 3:12:45.620 --> 3:12:47.700 my own family, she revealed to me, and then she 3:12:47.780 --> 3:12:49.680 used a word that stuck with me for a decade now. 3:12:50.200 --> 3:12:50.440 Ours. 3:12:50.860 --> 3:12:53.100 They're ours, and they're who they are, and we know 3:12:53.120 --> 3:12:56.060 they're wonderful and they're like us. Some relatives back in 3:12:56.080 --> 3:12:58.119 the mountains, she admitted, still weren't quite sure what to 3:12:58.170 --> 3:13:00.369 make of it. She also told me casually, like it 3:13:00.410 --> 3:13:02.570 was nothing, which is exactly how she wanted it treated. 3:13:02.870 --> 3:13:05.630 that she had transgender employees on salary in her own company, 3:13:05.730 --> 3:13:08.190 years before most corporations would say that sentence out loud, 3:13:08.330 --> 3:13:10.470 let alone mean it. People came to her the way 3:13:10.510 --> 3:13:12.379 they used to come to her mama, she said, to 3:13:12.420 --> 3:13:14.580 be told it was safe to be honest. You need 3:13:14.600 --> 3:13:16.539 to let people know who you are, and you need 3:13:16.560 --> 3:13:18.420 to come on out, she'd tell them. You don't need 3:13:18.459 --> 3:13:22.260 to live your life in darkness. Parton strenuously avoided direct 3:13:22.320 --> 3:13:25.280 political punditry when she could, but after the right-wing moral 3:13:25.320 --> 3:13:28.600 panic over trans rights ignited in the 2020s, she spoke out, 3:13:28.800 --> 3:13:32.220 stating her explicit and direct support for trans people. I 3:13:32.250 --> 3:13:34.500 know how important this is to them. That's who they are, 3:13:34.700 --> 3:13:37.000 she said. They cannot help that any more than I 3:13:37.020 --> 3:13:39.160 can help being Dolly Parton, you know, the way people 3:13:39.220 --> 3:13:41.340 know me. If there's something to be judged, that is 3:13:41.400 --> 3:13:43.940 God's business, but we are all God's children, and how 3:13:44.000 --> 3:13:47.019 we are is who we are. There's so much more 3:13:47.180 --> 3:13:49.820 to who Dolly was and what she did, from reinvesting 3:13:49.860 --> 3:13:52.520 royalties from Whitney Houston's cover of I Will Always Love 3:13:52.540 --> 3:13:54.980 You into the black community, after refusing to license the 3:13:55.000 --> 3:13:57.440 song to Elvis, to starring in The Best Little Whorehouse 3:13:57.500 --> 3:14:01.000 in Texas, arguably the best film about either Texas or whorehouses. 3:14:01.480 --> 3:14:03.800 She did it all in her life. I think the 3:14:03.840 --> 3:14:06.280 loss of Parton hurts so keenly because of the very 3:14:06.300 --> 3:14:08.510 thing I started with, though. The fact that her loss 3:14:08.530 --> 3:14:11.890 has been mourned across the aisle almost regardless of political stance. 3:14:12.410 --> 3:14:14.970 Dolly Parton was the closest thing our culture had to 3:14:15.010 --> 3:14:18.060 a secular saint, a Joshua Norton-like figure who could have 3:14:18.110 --> 3:14:20.680 waded into the middle of a deadly partisan riot and 3:14:20.740 --> 3:14:22.980 parted the fighting with her presence like that baby at 3:14:23.000 --> 3:14:25.160 the end of Children of Men. I might be going 3:14:25.200 --> 3:14:27.100 a little bit far with that last one, but in 3:14:27.140 --> 3:14:29.570 my research for this, I came across a recollection of 3:14:29.629 --> 3:14:32.050 Dolly by Roger Ebert that I feel I need to share. 3:14:32.810 --> 3:14:35.050 Roger Ebert, if you're on the younger side, was a 3:14:35.070 --> 3:14:38.190 very famous Pulitzer-winning film critic, and this is him talking 3:14:38.230 --> 3:14:40.970 about meetings that he and his partner Gene Siskel had 3:14:41.010 --> 3:14:43.670 with Dolly Parton. In Dallas for the premiere of 9 3:14:43.670 --> 3:14:45.879 to 5, I had an uncanny experience, and on the 3:14:45.920 --> 3:14:48.500 plane home to Chicago, I confessed it to Siskel. I 3:14:48.540 --> 3:14:50.800 had been granted a private half hour with Dolly Parton, 3:14:51.160 --> 3:14:53.000 And as we spoke, I was filled with a strange 3:14:53.060 --> 3:14:56.280 ethereal grace. This was not spiritual, nor was it sexual. 3:14:56.470 --> 3:14:59.490 It was healing and comforting. Jean listened and said, Roger, 3:14:59.570 --> 3:15:01.810 I felt the exact same thing during my interview with her. 3:15:02.190 --> 3:15:02.930 We looked at each other. 3:15:03.209 --> 3:15:05.530 What did this mean? Neither one of us ever felt 3:15:05.570 --> 3:15:08.050 that feeling again. From time to time, we would refer 3:15:08.110 --> 3:15:10.789 to it in wonder. And to close off, I think 3:15:10.850 --> 3:15:13.779 I should give us all some advice courtesy of Dolly Parton. 3:15:14.379 --> 3:15:16.439 Find out who you are and do it on purpose 3:15:16.640 --> 3:15:18.800 and do it with purpose. You got to know who 3:15:18.840 --> 3:15:21.180 you are because so many people try to emulate or 3:15:21.220 --> 3:15:24.010 copy somebody else. And that's what I got to say 3:15:24.310 --> 3:15:24.869 about Dolly. 3:15:26.030 --> 3:15:31.369 Thank you, Robert. For some less good, I mean, how 3:15:31.390 --> 3:15:34.090 do I say this? Um, Some people who are less 3:15:34.129 --> 3:15:38.820 good than Dolly Parton. There are billions of them. Let's 3:15:38.830 --> 3:15:41.060 start with some small things regarding people who are not 3:15:41.100 --> 3:15:45.360 as good as Dolly Parton. Darlene Graham just won the 3:15:45.480 --> 3:15:50.260 runoff election for the Republican Senate nomination in South Carolina. 3:15:51.160 --> 3:15:54.080 Graham won with 52.5% of the vote, dominating in the 3:15:54.120 --> 3:15:56.640 eastern part of the state where Trump campaigned for her 3:15:56.700 --> 3:16:02.339 last Friday in Myrtle Beach. On Wednesday morning, the Department 3:16:02.360 --> 3:16:05.970 of State in partnership with the Department of Treasury, has 3:16:06.129 --> 3:16:12.640 announced the Italy-based autonomous anti-capitalist digital service provider Autistici Inventati, 3:16:13.020 --> 3:16:17.680 or the IA Collective, is now a specially designated global 3:16:17.800 --> 3:16:22.160 terrorist organization. To quote from Treasury, quote, Today, the U.S. 3:16:22.180 --> 3:16:26.379 Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control took 3:16:26.560 --> 3:16:30.119 action to counter the growing threat posed by violent far-left 3:16:30.180 --> 3:16:34.370 terrorist groups, by sanctioning the IA Collective, an Italy-based entity 3:16:34.390 --> 3:16:38.830 that supplies specialized digital architecture tools and services for Antifa 3:16:38.870 --> 3:16:43.650 cells and other violent far-left extremists, including the foreign terrorist 3:16:43.690 --> 3:16:50.490 organization Palestine Action. The IA Collective also operates the web 3:16:50.590 --> 3:16:57.800 platform NoBlogs, which hosts many Antifa and anarchist communiques. Though notably, 3:16:57.820 --> 3:17:03.220 the State Department has repeatedly asserted that Rose City Antifa 3:17:04.200 --> 3:17:08.769 used the NoBlogs platform online, And that is simply not true. 3:17:08.870 --> 3:17:12.210 What they are referring to is Rose City Counter Info, 3:17:12.850 --> 3:17:15.850 a separate website that is not affiliated with Rose City Antifa, 3:17:16.310 --> 3:17:20.660 which is used by local anarchists to make community bulletin 3:17:20.700 --> 3:17:24.120 board style updates. I cannot emphasize enough that these are 3:17:24.160 --> 3:17:29.359 totally separate groups with often very different politics. But on 3:17:29.420 --> 3:17:33.209 both social media and official State Department press releases, These 3:17:33.270 --> 3:17:37.830 two groups have been conflated, asserting that Rose City Antifa 3:17:38.290 --> 3:17:42.830 used the AI collective tools to organize and incite violent 3:17:42.930 --> 3:17:46.700 and criminal acts. Something else I want to emphasize is 3:17:46.780 --> 3:17:53.360 that Palestine Action, the UK-based organization, is described as a 3:17:54.280 --> 3:18:00.770 foreign terrorist organization in the Treasury Department's announcement about sanctions 3:18:00.930 --> 3:18:05.080 regarding the AI collective. And in that same announcement, sanctions 3:18:05.100 --> 3:18:09.000 were also imposed on Palestine Action, which the Treasury Department 3:18:09.720 --> 3:18:13.920 accused of supporting, quote, numerous acts of terrorism. But as 3:18:14.120 --> 3:18:18.690 of recording, Palestine Action has not been officially designated as 3:18:18.790 --> 3:18:20.710 a foreign terrorist organization. 3:18:20.730 --> 3:18:25.550 And then one thing from me, the Trump administration moved 3:18:25.590 --> 3:18:28.840 ahead this week with its plans to rescind the 2001 3:18:28.840 --> 3:18:33.770 roadless rule. which blocks road building in inventory roadless areas 3:18:33.830 --> 3:18:38.400 of national forests, not in wilderness areas or national parks, 3:18:38.459 --> 3:18:42.060 as some people have been reporting. The new rule was 3:18:42.100 --> 3:18:45.940 proposed on August 18th with a public comment period beginning 3:18:45.980 --> 3:18:49.020 that day. The justification that they're going for with this 3:18:49.560 --> 3:18:53.280 is it will prevent wildfires. And I believe they're going 3:18:53.320 --> 3:18:56.900 for like it will allow fuel mitigation to prevent wildfires. 3:18:57.000 --> 3:19:00.840 It's worth noting that there were already provisions in the 3:19:00.879 --> 3:19:04.520 roadless rule to allow for like thinning of small diameter timber. 3:19:05.020 --> 3:19:06.930 What they didn't do is add budget to do that. 3:19:07.190 --> 3:19:07.390 Right. 3:19:07.450 --> 3:19:10.390 So like if they were making a serious attempt to 3:19:10.830 --> 3:19:13.190 do fire mitigation in so much as that is something 3:19:13.230 --> 3:19:16.570 we can prevent, which I don't think it is, then 3:19:16.870 --> 3:19:18.470 they would have added budget, but they haven't done that. 3:19:18.920 --> 3:19:21.160 It's just worth pointing out that the construction of roads 3:19:21.500 --> 3:19:23.480 will allow people to get into areas that were harder 3:19:23.500 --> 3:19:25.439 for them to get into before. And the thing that 3:19:25.500 --> 3:19:29.230 tends to start wildfires is people. So people being in 3:19:29.270 --> 3:19:32.140 these areas will allow people to start fires in these areas. 3:19:33.400 --> 3:19:35.140 I'm going to cover this more in depth on natural 3:19:35.180 --> 3:19:37.140 causes in a couple of weeks, but I wanted to 3:19:37.180 --> 3:19:41.400 flag it because the comment period will probably end soon 3:19:41.740 --> 3:19:43.760 after I do my episode. So if you want to 3:19:43.800 --> 3:19:47.020 comment and so much that matters anymore, I'll include a link. 3:19:48.100 --> 3:19:50.820 So in other news that has thus far wound up 3:19:50.980 --> 3:19:57.070 not really being news, President Trump has declared, quote, economic D-Day? 3:19:58.209 --> 3:20:01.610 in his attempt to end the war in Iran, win 3:20:01.650 --> 3:20:05.670 the war in Iran. So in theory, economic D-Day is 3:20:05.690 --> 3:20:09.330 supposed to be a bunch of what are called secondary sanctions. 3:20:09.350 --> 3:20:13.070 Secondary sanctions are not just sanctions on a country, but 3:20:13.110 --> 3:20:17.490 are sanctions on any country that does trade with the 3:20:17.550 --> 3:20:21.490 first country, in this case, Iran. The specific focuses here 3:20:21.510 --> 3:20:27.949 are supposed to be, quote, cryptocurrency, technology, gold, aviation, and shipping. Now, 3:20:28.490 --> 3:20:31.310 the issue here is that if you are going to 3:20:31.550 --> 3:20:36.770 do secondary sanctions against countries that trade with Iran, the 3:20:36.970 --> 3:20:41.530 actual largest target here would be China. Now, reporters repeatedly 3:20:41.770 --> 3:20:46.269 asked Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who is nominally the person 3:20:46.290 --> 3:20:49.170 supposed to be running these sanctions, if he was going 3:20:49.209 --> 3:20:52.530 to name which countries there were going to be secondary 3:20:52.580 --> 3:20:59.400 sanctions against. Besant refused repeatedly. So these sanctions were supposed 3:20:59.500 --> 3:21:04.910 to begin later this week, but the administration has been... 3:21:04.650 --> 3:21:08.330 I don't know if slow-walking them is the term, but 3:21:08.390 --> 3:21:11.850 they have refused to actually impose any. They are claiming 3:21:11.890 --> 3:21:13.770 that they are not imposing any because they are giving 3:21:13.810 --> 3:21:19.640 countries time to comply voluntarily. But as of Wednesday, August 26th, 3:21:20.200 --> 3:21:23.959 there have been no actual sanctions imposed. Every conceivable joke 3:21:24.020 --> 3:21:27.980 comparing this to D-Day has already been made. Then he actually, 3:21:28.180 --> 3:21:31.830 by the press corps, in an unexpected bit of bravery, 3:21:32.470 --> 3:21:35.090 there were several members of the press corps in various 3:21:35.510 --> 3:21:39.420 press conferences asked, hey, so D-Day was a surprise and 3:21:39.440 --> 3:21:42.940 you're announcing this. Can you explain this conflict? And he 3:21:42.980 --> 3:21:44.260 got a bunch of non-answers. 3:21:44.800 --> 3:21:44.959 So. 3:21:45.709 --> 3:21:49.859 Maybe this is the giant inflatable set of sanctions that 3:21:49.879 --> 3:21:52.420 they are using to draw attention from the actual set 3:21:52.440 --> 3:21:53.040 of sanctions. 3:21:54.440 --> 3:21:58.660 James, you unfortunately know significantly more about D-Day than every 3:21:58.700 --> 3:22:00.670 single person in this administration combined. 3:22:00.810 --> 3:22:02.390 Oh my God. 3:22:02.430 --> 3:22:04.610 It's a thing that they make you do when you're 3:22:04.629 --> 3:22:06.010 a British man in your 30s. 3:22:08.270 --> 3:22:12.850 But if any sanctions actually come down, from this, we 3:22:12.890 --> 3:22:13.830 will let you know. 3:22:14.010 --> 3:22:14.780 But as. 3:22:16.220 --> 3:22:21.240 Of Wednesday, August 26th, this is another failed attempt to 3:22:21.780 --> 3:22:24.180 win the war in Iran that seems to have been 3:22:24.360 --> 3:22:45.630 called off before it began. Speaking of tariffs... So the 3:22:45.709 --> 3:22:49.610 other big piece of big tariff news is something that 3:22:49.650 --> 3:22:52.629 we talked about a few weeks ago, which is the U.S. 3:22:52.629 --> 3:22:56.770 's attempt to impose 50% tariffs on a broad swath 3:22:56.930 --> 3:23:00.310 of Canadian goods. Ever since then, the U.S. and Canada 3:23:00.350 --> 3:23:03.230 have been in trade negotiations over these tariffs, and these 3:23:03.270 --> 3:23:07.619 negotiations have completely fallen apart as Canada has walked away 3:23:07.760 --> 3:23:12.349 from the table. Now, there are a bunch of reasons 3:23:12.550 --> 3:23:17.500 why these specific negotiations broke down completely. I'm going to 3:23:17.530 --> 3:23:20.220 go through some of them. One of the big ones 3:23:20.300 --> 3:23:23.439 is that one of the biggest sources of cross-border trade 3:23:23.480 --> 3:23:26.720 between the US and Canada is the fact that in 3:23:26.740 --> 3:23:29.260 a similar way to the US and Mexico, there is 3:23:29.300 --> 3:23:34.620 a lot of cross-border trade revolving around US auto manufacturing, right? 3:23:34.680 --> 3:23:38.060 And Canadian auto manufacturing, a lot of Ford, General Motors, 3:23:38.080 --> 3:23:41.370 stuff like that. A lot of trucks are produced in Canada. 3:23:41.390 --> 3:23:45.750 The US was negotiating reducing the tariffs on Canadian automobiles 3:23:45.800 --> 3:23:48.080 to 15%, but they were only doing this for cars 3:23:48.140 --> 3:23:50.340 and not trucks. And so they wanted to leave the 3:23:50.420 --> 3:23:52.480 truck rate at 50%. And there were a whole bunch 3:23:52.700 --> 3:23:58.279 of very, very fancy trucks that American consumers buy and 3:23:58.600 --> 3:24:01.070 that Canada makes that would still have 50% tariffs. 3:24:01.510 --> 3:24:01.850 Sure. 3:24:02.310 --> 3:24:03.470 Yeah. 3:24:04.850 --> 3:24:07.970 This is one of the things that normally when these 3:24:08.010 --> 3:24:11.420 kind of Trade battles have happened before. Automotive stuff has 3:24:11.459 --> 3:24:14.360 been written out of them almost immediately because it's terrible 3:24:14.420 --> 3:24:17.660 for a bunch of American companies. But the administration was 3:24:17.700 --> 3:24:21.120 refusing to back down on this. And, you know, the 3:24:21.140 --> 3:24:23.949 Canadians walked out. They have wooden alcohol tariffs that are 3:24:23.970 --> 3:24:26.869 already in effect. There are going to be more tariffs 3:24:26.930 --> 3:24:32.390 coming on September 8th. More bafflingly, one of the big 3:24:32.450 --> 3:24:35.990 things that Trump has been on is trying to restart 3:24:36.030 --> 3:24:37.330 the Keystone XL pipeline. 3:24:37.770 --> 3:24:38.030 Yeah. 3:24:39.020 --> 3:24:41.580 Which Carty is like, no, we're not doing this pipeline 3:24:41.620 --> 3:24:45.410 unless we get a better trade deal. But then in 3:24:45.450 --> 3:24:51.230 a truly startling set of proposals, the U.S. wanted to 3:24:51.290 --> 3:24:54.370 be able to set Canadian steel tariff rates? 3:24:54.770 --> 3:24:55.250 Sure. 3:24:55.750 --> 3:24:59.250 The nominal argument here is that the U.S. is trying 3:24:59.300 --> 3:25:01.960 to like, quote unquote, stop the import of the flood 3:25:01.980 --> 3:25:05.180 of cheap steel from countries like China and And they 3:25:05.200 --> 3:25:07.420 could only do this if the Canadian steel tariff rate 3:25:07.490 --> 3:25:09.310 matched the American steel tariff rate. 3:25:10.530 --> 3:25:11.950 But the goal for this. 3:25:11.830 --> 3:25:12.789 Was for the U.S. 3:25:12.810 --> 3:25:16.030 To be able to review and set Canadian tariff rates 3:25:16.830 --> 3:25:19.990 and make sure that they match American tariff rates on 3:25:20.050 --> 3:25:23.320 other countries. Which, this is the kind of stuff you 3:25:23.340 --> 3:25:24.480 do to a colony? 3:25:24.920 --> 3:25:25.839 51st state. 3:25:26.920 --> 3:25:30.440 Yeah. Can confirm. Very colonial thing to do. 3:25:31.080 --> 3:25:32.260 Shocking from America. 3:25:32.280 --> 3:25:32.360 Yeah. 3:25:33.360 --> 3:25:36.380 I've never seen a country do this, try to do 3:25:36.400 --> 3:25:38.580 this to another sovereign country like Canada. 3:25:38.620 --> 3:25:38.880 Yes. 3:25:38.940 --> 3:25:39.140 Yeah. 3:25:39.220 --> 3:25:40.039 Yeah. 3:25:40.260 --> 3:25:43.180 I don't think we did this to Iraq. I've never 3:25:43.250 --> 3:25:44.470 I've never seen anything like this. 3:25:44.650 --> 3:25:46.150 It's it's bizarre. 3:25:46.390 --> 3:25:49.150 The insistence that like, yeah, we have any sort of 3:25:49.209 --> 3:25:52.769 say in their international policy is de facto making Canada 3:25:52.790 --> 3:25:54.490 trying to make Canada agree that they're a colony. 3:25:54.690 --> 3:25:54.910 Right. 3:25:55.709 --> 3:25:56.050 Yeah. 3:25:56.290 --> 3:25:58.750 Yeah. It's very weird the way this is being written 3:25:58.810 --> 3:26:01.580 about in the American press, where they're like, oh, well, 3:26:01.600 --> 3:26:05.920 this is Canadian autonomy and sovereignty has become a political issue. 3:26:06.000 --> 3:26:10.040 And yes, obviously, there's no country on earth that would 3:26:10.080 --> 3:26:10.840 agree to this. 3:26:11.220 --> 3:26:11.379 No. 3:26:11.840 --> 3:26:14.840 Even the staunchest American, like Saudi Arabia, would not agree 3:26:14.890 --> 3:26:18.250 to let the U.S. dictate its tariff policy. 3:26:18.770 --> 3:26:18.930 No. 3:26:19.090 --> 3:26:19.629 It's absurd. 3:26:19.750 --> 3:26:24.910 And this has managed to accomplish the absolutely staggering feat 3:26:25.129 --> 3:26:29.800 of uniting... Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney with Doug Ford, 3:26:29.820 --> 3:26:31.720 the right-wing premier of Ontario. 3:26:32.120 --> 3:26:32.940 Jesus Christ. 3:26:33.910 --> 3:26:38.750 And also, because these people just hate winning, I don't 3:26:38.770 --> 3:26:42.520 have another explanation for this other than racism. Canadian negotiators 3:26:42.600 --> 3:26:46.340 claimed that the U.S. was trying to intervene in Canadian 3:26:46.390 --> 3:26:50.929 policy about the digital promotion of French films. which is 3:26:50.950 --> 3:26:53.070 a direct attack on Quebec. 3:26:53.270 --> 3:26:54.210 On the Quebecois. 3:26:55.310 --> 3:26:59.990 Yeah, and a bunch of very, very important legal protections 3:27:00.270 --> 3:27:05.379 in Quebec about the French language. So they have somehow 3:27:05.459 --> 3:27:11.320 managed to unite a political coalition of Doug Ford, the 3:27:11.360 --> 3:27:15.480 Quebec separatist, And the ruling. 3:27:15.200 --> 3:27:18.699 Liberals, all of whom- It's pretty insane. It's unbelievable. 3:27:19.540 --> 3:27:25.050 They're just going systematically through every single conceivable political bloc 3:27:25.510 --> 3:27:30.949 in Canada and pissing them off. So these negotiations obviously collapsed. Obviously, 3:27:31.010 --> 3:27:34.400 the Canadians walked away. Obviously, there was almost total support 3:27:34.440 --> 3:27:36.080 in Canadian society for doing this. 3:27:36.100 --> 3:27:37.040 Yeah. 3:27:37.760 --> 3:27:41.390 Canadian nationalism is at an all-time high. This is really 3:27:41.410 --> 3:27:43.610 just carrying over the sort of trends that we saw 3:27:43.650 --> 3:27:48.850 in the last Canadian election where Carney saved the Liberals 3:27:49.410 --> 3:27:55.150 from total and utter demise by feeding into this sense 3:27:55.190 --> 3:28:00.600 of nationalism based on being under threat from Trump. And 3:28:01.020 --> 3:28:03.520 the guy who was running for the Conservative Prime Minister 3:28:04.060 --> 3:28:06.859 was too associated with Trump and so that really hurt them. 3:28:07.260 --> 3:28:11.300 And it built this really big coalition in Canada to 3:28:11.620 --> 3:28:14.540 push back against the conservatives as a way of pushing 3:28:14.560 --> 3:28:18.900 back against Trump and really put forward the Liberal Party 3:28:19.020 --> 3:28:24.290 as this counterforce to Trump's America and the attempted incursions 3:28:24.410 --> 3:28:26.850 into Canadian sovereignty, which Trump is still trying to do. 3:28:27.209 --> 3:28:30.930 And it's impressive how much Carney's been able to hold 3:28:31.290 --> 3:28:35.610 on to that coalition while ruling. It's been over a 3:28:35.629 --> 3:28:39.570 year now. and stuff like this shows that it's, if anything, 3:28:39.690 --> 3:28:44.800 only gotten stronger in recent weeks during these negotiations. Pulling 3:28:44.840 --> 3:28:49.880 together Doug Ford, the Liberal Party, and the Kebukwa into 3:28:49.980 --> 3:28:54.150 one united bloc is like an unprecedented... a piece of 3:28:54.190 --> 3:28:55.269 like national unity. 3:28:55.370 --> 3:28:58.820 The fact that other Canadians are backing up the Quebecois 3:28:58.980 --> 3:29:01.740 after fucking Trump tried to make restrictions that like the 3:29:01.800 --> 3:29:03.220 French language and can't like that. 3:29:03.260 --> 3:29:03.920 That's nuts. 3:29:04.620 --> 3:29:06.279 The fact that I'm going to be on the side 3:29:06.400 --> 3:29:09.000 of the Quebecois as like a Midwest Canadian. 3:29:09.100 --> 3:29:09.560 It's nuts. 3:29:10.080 --> 3:29:11.480 Very impressive by Trump. 3:29:12.900 --> 3:29:13.119 Yeah. 3:29:13.200 --> 3:29:15.680 And I think what's interesting about this, right, is that like, 3:29:15.720 --> 3:29:20.600 you know, throughout Canadian history, there's been a bipartisan series 3:29:20.660 --> 3:29:23.430 of debates that have cut across the You know, like 3:29:23.510 --> 3:29:25.870 as cut across every political party, there have been factions 3:29:25.950 --> 3:29:28.410 in both about whether the extent to which Canada was 3:29:28.450 --> 3:29:30.690 going to be sort of a branch plant economy of 3:29:31.570 --> 3:29:36.590 of the United States. And that's just over. Everyone at 3:29:36.610 --> 3:29:39.670 this point has has, you know, sort of unified and saying, no, 3:29:39.830 --> 3:29:42.270 we're not going to continue doing this, you know, to 3:29:42.320 --> 3:29:44.939 sort of cap this off. One of the demands from 3:29:44.980 --> 3:29:48.920 the Trump negotiators were that Canada would end this program. 3:29:48.980 --> 3:29:50.680 It's been doing of this sort of this sort of 3:29:50.800 --> 3:29:54.790 by Canadian program. where they've been doing something that the U.S. 3:29:55.450 --> 3:29:58.810 also has been doing for ages of encouraging people and 3:29:58.850 --> 3:30:02.670 encouraging government contracts to go to Canadian companies, which has 3:30:02.690 --> 3:30:06.940 been intensified in response to sort of what I think inaccurately. 3:30:07.480 --> 3:30:09.380 And I can't believe I'm saying this in regards to 3:30:09.440 --> 3:30:13.529 Canada as American imperial aggression. And Canadians have refused to 3:30:13.550 --> 3:30:17.870 do this. And instead, this has been intensifying attempts to 3:30:17.890 --> 3:30:20.570 sort of do whatever is possible to try to decouple 3:30:20.610 --> 3:30:24.250 the US and Canadian economies. Obviously, that's not something that's 3:30:24.290 --> 3:30:27.350 particularly possible in a macro sense, just because of the 3:30:27.410 --> 3:30:31.970 reliance on both, you know, oil exports and also the 3:30:32.150 --> 3:30:36.290 way that the auto sector is intertwined. But this has 3:30:36.330 --> 3:30:38.070 become economic policy in a way that would have been 3:30:38.110 --> 3:30:39.590 unthinkable even like five years ago. 3:30:40.750 --> 3:30:44.970 In specific, like the Buy Canada campaign to push for 3:30:45.470 --> 3:30:48.290 consumers just to buy products made either by Canadian companies 3:30:48.330 --> 3:30:51.390 or made in Canada has been a massive success. 3:30:51.470 --> 3:30:51.709 Yeah. 3:30:51.950 --> 3:30:55.250 Talking with my family in Canada about this, like this 3:30:55.350 --> 3:31:00.100 is penetrated into all parts of the country, including like 3:31:00.120 --> 3:31:03.700 the conservative Alberta province where my family lives, where, yeah, 3:31:03.720 --> 3:31:07.560 this is like a big thing. It's hard to understate 3:31:07.600 --> 3:31:09.640 how much of an impact that has had in the 3:31:09.680 --> 3:31:11.740 country's consuming habits in the past year and a half. 3:31:12.180 --> 3:31:14.840 Yeah, Trump has the ability to do this in an 3:31:14.900 --> 3:31:20.360 incredible number of countries, actually. He has created some fantastic alliances. 3:31:20.400 --> 3:31:22.040 He's been great for the maple syrup business. 3:31:24.620 --> 3:31:27.520 Let's go on ad break and then return for more news. 3:31:27.830 --> 3:31:30.070 Ads for poutine and maple syrup coming up. 3:31:30.330 --> 3:31:31.750 From your mouth to Katya's. 3:31:32.410 --> 3:31:34.150 Not at the same time. Maybe at the same time now. 3:31:34.170 --> 3:31:34.990 Maybe that's all they have. 3:31:48.740 --> 3:31:50.280 Carlos, welcome. 3:31:50.480 --> 3:31:50.879 Hello. 3:31:51.060 --> 3:31:53.940 What is your special segment for us this week on 3:31:54.000 --> 3:31:54.780 executive disorder? 3:31:54.820 --> 3:31:58.039 There was an American colony segue that was hanging right there. 3:31:58.459 --> 3:31:59.580 You know what? 3:32:02.680 --> 3:32:03.230 My bad. 3:32:03.930 --> 3:32:08.010 From the soon-to-be colony of the U.S., Canada, to the 3:32:08.110 --> 3:32:11.769 current colony, Puerto Rico, on Wednesday, the U.S. Department of 3:32:11.870 --> 3:32:15.650 Agriculture declared that 26 out of the 78 municipalities in 3:32:15.690 --> 3:32:19.240 Puerto Rico were undergoing a drought disaster. Per the AP, 3:32:19.280 --> 3:32:22.400 more than 33% of the archipelago is under extreme drought, 3:32:22.780 --> 3:32:26.340 and another 30% is experiencing severe drought. So I should 3:32:26.379 --> 3:32:29.360 say that this emergency declaration has been a long time coming, 3:32:29.440 --> 3:32:31.700 and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets extended to 3:32:31.800 --> 3:32:35.260 other municipalities. Puerto Rico has been experiencing pretty bad water 3:32:35.330 --> 3:32:38.990 problems since forever, but they became particularly acute last year 3:32:39.050 --> 3:32:41.190 when more than half a million people lost water because 3:32:41.209 --> 3:32:44.600 of a broken pipe. Earlier this year, another break caused 3:32:44.660 --> 3:32:47.720 about 300,000 people to lose water, more or less. In 3:32:47.760 --> 3:32:49.990 my area, which is kind of outside of the metro 3:32:50.030 --> 3:32:53.150 where it's been most affecting, we lost water for about 3:32:53.150 --> 3:32:56.209 10 days early in the summer. And now, because of 3:32:56.230 --> 3:32:59.170 a mixture of aging infrastructure that hasn't been fixed and 3:32:59.209 --> 3:33:01.530 a continuing drought, it looks like that might be the 3:33:01.580 --> 3:33:05.100 case again soon. At least we're stockpiling as much water 3:33:05.180 --> 3:33:08.340 as we can. So to talk about the infrastructure problems 3:33:08.400 --> 3:33:11.540 real quick, part of it is really due to how 3:33:11.580 --> 3:33:14.019 bad the system is. We lose about 60% of the 3:33:14.060 --> 3:33:16.730 water produced by the local water utility before it gets 3:33:16.760 --> 3:33:20.890 to people's homes, which is... It's become normal to us, 3:33:20.930 --> 3:33:23.130 but it's kind of crazy to say to other people, 3:33:23.250 --> 3:33:24.830 at least in my experience when I've talked about it 3:33:24.890 --> 3:33:27.590 with others. And quite a few of the reservoirs that 3:33:27.930 --> 3:33:32.269 feed us water have not been dredged in years. Yeah, 3:33:32.290 --> 3:33:34.330 and part of the reason the drought is going on 3:33:34.350 --> 3:33:37.000 is because of the super El Nino, which has been 3:33:37.040 --> 3:33:40.260 causing temperatures across pretty much the whole world to go up. 3:33:40.660 --> 3:33:40.740 Yeah. 3:33:41.830 --> 3:33:43.600 So I also want to talk about two pretty big 3:33:43.680 --> 3:33:47.240 investigations published by Aura Bogalo of Injustice Watch, one in 3:33:47.260 --> 3:33:50.780 collaboration with Wired and the other in collaboration with The Intercept. 3:33:51.379 --> 3:33:53.480 To kind of set the scene, Illinois has this thing 3:33:53.520 --> 3:33:56.290 called the Trust Act, which generally prohibits law enforcement in 3:33:56.760 --> 3:34:01.230 Illinois from participating in immigration enforcement. This includes not detaining 3:34:01.270 --> 3:34:03.990 or not continuing to detain any person based solely on 3:34:04.010 --> 3:34:07.960 whether they have an immigration detainer. They are not supposed to, quote, 3:34:08.180 --> 3:34:11.840 assist in any capacity with an immigration agent's enforcement operation 3:34:11.910 --> 3:34:14.730 unless required to by a judge's warrant or a federal law. 3:34:15.270 --> 3:34:17.930 Several other states have laws like this, essentially making them 3:34:17.990 --> 3:34:22.009 sanctuary states. However, as Bogada writes, this hasn't really stopped 3:34:22.070 --> 3:34:26.050 local officials from collaborating with immigration enforcement. In one case, 3:34:26.110 --> 3:34:28.850 a Riverton police officer ran the name of a 31-year-old 3:34:28.910 --> 3:34:31.859 immigrant for a law enforcement database due to a traffic 3:34:31.920 --> 3:34:34.279 infraction only to get a phone call from the FBI 3:34:34.340 --> 3:34:37.959 almost immediately. The FBI agent was trying to see how 3:34:38.060 --> 3:34:40.910 he could help ICE detain the guy, the man who 3:34:40.950 --> 3:34:44.310 was stopped. The solution came from an outstanding state warrant 3:34:44.370 --> 3:34:48.250 the man had out for him. The police officer technically 3:34:48.290 --> 3:34:50.900 was not detaining him on an immigration base, but the 3:34:50.980 --> 3:34:54.920 outcome was the same. Per Borgato's reporting, since Trump came 3:34:54.959 --> 3:34:59.060 into office, officials from at least 75 agencies across Illinois... 3:34:59.120 --> 3:35:02.420 have collaborated with immigration officials by feeding them information. This 3:35:02.459 --> 3:35:05.119 has led to at least 150 people being put into 3:35:05.140 --> 3:35:10.500 the immigration system throughout Illinois, even though as a sanctuary state, 3:35:10.560 --> 3:35:14.600 it's ostensibly not supposed to do that. In another exchange 3:35:14.660 --> 3:35:17.860 reported by Injustice Watch, a Tinley Park officer was asked 3:35:17.910 --> 3:35:20.710 by an ICE agent for quote-unquote lead data on a 3:35:20.750 --> 3:35:24.129 person the officer had stopped for speeding. The officer responded 3:35:24.170 --> 3:35:26.369 with a bunch of information about the guy, including his 3:35:26.430 --> 3:35:30.210 address and phone number. and also told the ICE agent that, quote, 3:35:30.310 --> 3:35:34.010 his crew is doing work in Tinley Park currently. There 3:35:34.050 --> 3:35:36.410 are several examples of this kind of wink and nod 3:35:36.470 --> 3:35:39.830 collaboration by local officials with immigration enforcement for a variety 3:35:39.879 --> 3:35:43.480 of different ways, including emails or housing detained migrants at 3:35:43.500 --> 3:35:46.660 the request of the U.S. Marshals, then releasing them into 3:35:46.780 --> 3:35:49.760 ICE's hands. The second story published by Bogalo is much 3:35:49.840 --> 3:35:53.300 the same, but focused on county prosecutors' role in enforcing 3:35:53.360 --> 3:35:58.200 immigration law. Per her story, quote, state's attorney's office in 3:35:58.379 --> 3:36:01.260 one out of every six Illinois counties acted as valuable 3:36:01.400 --> 3:36:05.960 assets of federal immigration enforcement, sharing sensitive personal data about 3:36:06.000 --> 3:36:09.360 the people they were prosecuting without criminal warrants, public disclosure, 3:36:09.440 --> 3:36:12.480 or legislative oversight, and with no accounting of how often 3:36:12.520 --> 3:36:15.599 it happened or who was affected, end quote. Some of 3:36:15.620 --> 3:36:19.170 this came from simply answering when DHS agents came calling, 3:36:19.209 --> 3:36:22.990 while some prosecutors volunteered information of their own volition. In 3:36:23.030 --> 3:36:26.060 Marion County, one assistant state's attorney emailed the information of 3:36:26.100 --> 3:36:28.230 a man in a case he was prosecuting only for 3:36:28.310 --> 3:36:30.920 ICE to respond, quote, The same prosecutor, per Injustice Watch, 3:36:31.000 --> 3:36:33.740 emailed the same ICE agent within 20 minutes after flagging 3:36:33.820 --> 3:36:46.410 the first person, saying, quote, It's worth noting that per Bogado, 3:36:46.510 --> 3:36:49.310 more than half of Illinois state attorney's offices said they 3:36:49.330 --> 3:36:53.189 had no record of contacts with ICE. However, what I 3:36:53.250 --> 3:36:56.480 wanted to highlight here was that even in states people 3:36:56.500 --> 3:36:59.600 would consider, quote unquote, safe because they're sanctuary states or 3:36:59.640 --> 3:37:03.280 sanctuary cities, the mechanism of the state continues to collaborate 3:37:03.320 --> 3:37:06.519 with immigration enforcement under the table. We've seen this in 3:37:06.540 --> 3:37:09.310 a bunch of places already, mainly for state, local, and 3:37:09.330 --> 3:37:12.090 municipal police officers doing this exact same type of thing 3:37:12.129 --> 3:37:12.990 across the country. 3:37:13.010 --> 3:37:13.230 Yeah. 3:37:13.720 --> 3:37:15.760 But the prosecutor's thing, as far as I know, is 3:37:15.840 --> 3:37:20.340 pretty new, especially at this scale that Pogado reported on. Right. 3:37:21.000 --> 3:37:24.280 So this kind of wink and nod collaboration is likely 3:37:24.340 --> 3:37:27.349 happening across the board in the United States. And we'll 3:37:27.790 --> 3:37:30.870 be hearing stories like this probably for years to come. 3:37:30.890 --> 3:37:32.990 Yeah, I think like. 3:37:33.590 --> 3:37:35.690 People should be aware, I guess, I just want to 3:37:35.709 --> 3:37:39.310 say really briefly that like sanctuary jurisdiction laws are not 3:37:39.390 --> 3:37:41.940 necessarily doing what people think they are doing. 3:37:42.240 --> 3:37:42.340 Yeah. 3:37:42.360 --> 3:37:43.660 Like cops are going to cop. 3:37:43.820 --> 3:37:44.859 Yeah, absolutely. 3:37:44.879 --> 3:37:46.800 And you see this all the time with like when 3:37:46.840 --> 3:37:49.660 they put into the queries they put into flock, when 3:37:49.700 --> 3:37:52.029 people look at their flock hot list and they just 3:37:52.070 --> 3:37:56.900 put like investigation or crime as the reason why. Like 3:37:57.459 --> 3:37:59.760 that is what's happening there, right? When your jurisdiction tells 3:37:59.800 --> 3:38:01.400 you that these flock cameras aren't going to be used 3:38:01.420 --> 3:38:04.600 for immigration. When the cop just puts in investigation, you 3:38:04.620 --> 3:38:06.420 have no idea what it's being used for, right? 3:38:07.140 --> 3:38:07.300 Yeah. 3:38:07.680 --> 3:38:09.699 Absolutely. And I should also flag that a bunch of 3:38:09.750 --> 3:38:14.430 sanctuary cities have specific ways in which they'll collaborate with 3:38:14.490 --> 3:38:18.130 immigration enforcement. So, for example, a big thing is Operation 3:38:18.170 --> 3:38:21.720 Stone Garden, where they... use municipal, state, and local cops 3:38:21.780 --> 3:38:25.189 to patrol the border. And sometimes, ostensibly, it's not supposed 3:38:25.209 --> 3:38:28.630 to be for immigration enforcement, but I'm pretty sure that 3:38:28.690 --> 3:38:31.470 it's happened across the U.S. where it's being used to 3:38:31.890 --> 3:38:32.770 enforce immigration. 3:38:33.030 --> 3:38:36.400 Yeah, well, like look at NDAs, right? Like that's in 3:38:36.770 --> 3:38:39.580 theory a trespass thing. Top of it being, I guess 3:38:39.620 --> 3:38:42.320 it's a federal trespass in that instance because it's a 3:38:43.480 --> 3:38:47.280 military installation. For a citizen, that would be like a 3:38:47.480 --> 3:38:48.160 trespass thing. 3:38:48.820 --> 3:38:50.500 Yeah, there are a bunch of these ways. 3:38:50.520 --> 3:38:55.110 The California Values Act has all these carve-outs in addition to, 3:38:55.230 --> 3:38:57.830 as far as I'm aware, never having led to a prosecution. 3:38:59.230 --> 3:39:01.689 These sanctuary city laws of a cop or a prosecutor 3:39:01.830 --> 3:39:03.910 or sanctuary jurisdiction laws, they don't have teeth. 3:39:04.170 --> 3:39:07.800 Yeah, and insofar as sanctuary city laws did anything under 3:39:07.820 --> 3:39:10.420 the first Trump administration, it wasn't because of the laws themselves. 3:39:10.440 --> 3:39:12.000 It was because of the mass resistance to it. 3:39:12.920 --> 3:39:15.120 Yeah, we don't fix this with sanctuary laws. And I 3:39:15.140 --> 3:39:17.820 think anyone who's telling you that that is the case 3:39:17.879 --> 3:39:20.019 is either lying to you or unaware. 3:39:20.540 --> 3:39:21.040 Exactly. 3:39:21.980 --> 3:39:25.660 I want to talk a little bit about some documents 3:39:25.800 --> 3:39:30.040 that the Deportation Data Project has obtained by Freedom of 3:39:30.060 --> 3:39:33.670 Information Act request. And they show us some data about 3:39:33.930 --> 3:39:36.810 ICE detentions. One of the things they show is that 3:39:36.910 --> 3:39:38.930 ICE is focusing more and more on people with no 3:39:38.990 --> 3:39:42.680 criminal record rather than as a claim focusing on people 3:39:42.760 --> 3:39:46.140 with convictions. As of July, the majority of ICE arrests 3:39:46.180 --> 3:39:49.560 were people with no convictions and no pending charges. This 3:39:49.640 --> 3:39:52.060 comes in the same week as the Fourth Circuit. Post-Chevron 3:39:52.420 --> 3:39:55.340 ruled that if a person's criminal conviction is vacated for 3:39:55.379 --> 3:40:00.240 any reason, that eliminates immigration consequences coming from that conviction. 3:40:00.660 --> 3:40:03.180 That would only be in the Fourth Circuit right now, right? 3:40:03.640 --> 3:40:07.620 It was reported today in a few outlets that that 3:40:07.640 --> 3:40:12.520 July had the highest number of ICE arrests, almost 50,000. 3:40:12.520 --> 3:40:14.080 That's correct. 3:40:14.140 --> 3:40:14.500 Yeah, yeah. 3:40:14.879 --> 3:40:18.820 And it's very interesting. June saw the previous record, right? 3:40:18.920 --> 3:40:22.650 And then July saw an even higher record. Specifically, I'm 3:40:22.690 --> 3:40:24.630 looking at detention bookings there. 3:40:25.150 --> 3:40:25.369 Okay. 3:40:25.650 --> 3:40:28.369 So it is possible that someone could be booked in 3:40:29.350 --> 3:40:33.130 having previously been detained once, right? Like we can't sum 3:40:33.170 --> 3:40:36.760 all of these months together. It's unlikely, but like Flores, 3:40:36.940 --> 3:40:40.960 the Flores settlement governs detention of minors. But I don't 3:40:40.980 --> 3:40:43.920 think there's a prohibition on re-detention under Flores, as I 3:40:43.980 --> 3:40:47.050 understand it. So yeah, as you said, these are the 3:40:47.090 --> 3:40:49.450 highest numbers that we've seen in this Trump administration. The 3:40:49.470 --> 3:40:51.680 data set I was looking at goes back to 2022, 3:40:51.670 --> 3:40:54.030 but I would be shocked if there were pre-2022 numbers 3:40:54.050 --> 3:40:55.670 that were higher than this. So I think it's probably 3:40:55.690 --> 3:40:57.470 pretty safe to say these are the highest numbers ever. 3:40:58.610 --> 3:41:01.610 It's interesting to break it down by state, which I did. 3:41:02.090 --> 3:41:04.640 A lot of that increase came in Texas and Florida. 3:41:05.110 --> 3:41:09.789 If you graph the number of bookings by state by month, 3:41:09.810 --> 3:41:13.530 you see huge spikes in Texas and Florida. Texas has 3:41:13.550 --> 3:41:15.510 always been the highest rate. It's a vast state. It 3:41:15.610 --> 3:41:18.210 has a large migrant population. You have support from local 3:41:18.270 --> 3:41:22.070 law enforcement. But the Florida peak was particularly notable, as 3:41:22.170 --> 3:41:27.250 were Arizona and Georgia. California, by contrast, didn't go up 3:41:27.320 --> 3:41:29.620 as much. And I want to get in a little bit. 3:41:29.760 --> 3:41:31.100 I'm going to go through some more data and tell 3:41:31.140 --> 3:41:33.080 us more about what this tells us about how ICE 3:41:33.140 --> 3:41:36.010 is going about things now. The number of people in 3:41:36.050 --> 3:41:38.890 detention is lower than its peak of January this year. 3:41:38.910 --> 3:41:41.709 This is probably due to the all-time high number of 3:41:41.830 --> 3:41:44.689 book outs from detention in July. The vast majority of 3:41:44.709 --> 3:41:48.160 those were removals. Some of them, people who bonded out, 3:41:49.000 --> 3:41:50.900 the vast bulk of those are going to be removals. 3:41:51.420 --> 3:41:54.800 We can also see certain detention facilities growing in population, 3:41:54.840 --> 3:41:59.730 notably Camp East Montana a few months ago. I reported 3:41:59.770 --> 3:42:03.550 on the GAO report, Government Accountability Office report, which highlighted 3:42:03.590 --> 3:42:06.689 how terrible conditions were there. As far as I know, 3:42:06.720 --> 3:42:10.120 it's still called Montana, not Montagna. I don't know if 3:42:10.140 --> 3:42:13.780 that's just they don't have the capacity to add accents 3:42:13.860 --> 3:42:17.920 or if maybe they're going for something else there. Overall, 3:42:17.959 --> 3:42:20.459 this data shows that the ice surge in July was 3:42:20.740 --> 3:42:22.879 really huge. And it shows us a little bit about 3:42:22.900 --> 3:42:26.200 this home and era approach, right? They're not doing what 3:42:26.240 --> 3:42:30.100 Bovino did, which was gratuitously using violence and crowd control 3:42:30.520 --> 3:42:34.580 and a highly visible militarized presence in blue states. They 3:42:34.600 --> 3:42:37.780 are doing this in red states as well. And they're 3:42:37.900 --> 3:42:42.710 doing it in a less sort of confrontational way. Not 3:42:42.730 --> 3:42:44.770 that it's not confrontational to grab someone and tear their 3:42:44.820 --> 3:42:45.420 family apart. 3:42:45.430 --> 3:42:46.160 Of course it is, right? 3:42:46.200 --> 3:42:50.640 But Bovino was trying to manufacture media moments. Yeah, less 3:42:50.680 --> 3:42:53.320 of a public spectacle, I guess. Yeah, Bovino has been 3:42:53.360 --> 3:42:56.320 about the spectacle for years, right? Like he had, in 3:42:56.340 --> 3:42:59.200 the Biden administration, he had social media people on his 3:42:59.260 --> 3:43:02.870 payroll in the El Centro sector and video content creators. 3:43:03.709 --> 3:43:06.710 So like, Homan is going about this differently, but clearly 3:43:07.190 --> 3:43:09.750 he is very effective at what he is trying to do. 3:43:10.370 --> 3:43:12.510 And it has been harder for people to oppose, said 3:43:12.590 --> 3:43:15.110 Pavino's like flood a city with Border Patrol guys in 3:43:15.129 --> 3:43:16.130 plague carriers approach. 3:43:16.930 --> 3:43:18.390 DHS OIG, that's the. 3:43:18.350 --> 3:43:21.220 Office of the Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security, 3:43:21.330 --> 3:43:23.800 has also released a report this month detailing how the 3:43:23.860 --> 3:43:28.100 focus on deportation, so all costs, has impacted the fentanyl market. 3:43:28.680 --> 3:43:32.000 So the report, which looked at how HSI, that's Homeland 3:43:32.020 --> 3:43:38.860 Security Investigations, has used expensive technologies, spoiler, it hasn't, concluded that, quote, 3:43:39.360 --> 3:43:43.369 As ICE shifted priorities towards immigration enforcement, HSI's level of 3:43:43.450 --> 3:43:47.129 effort on fentanyl declined from fiscal year 2024 to 2025. 3:43:47.110 --> 3:43:53.710 Fentanyl investigations decreased by 24%, investigative hours spent countering fentanyl 3:43:53.730 --> 3:43:59.879 decreased by approximately 30%, and fentanyl seizures decreased by 39%. Indeed, 3:44:00.320 --> 3:44:05.180 there are fewer HSI agents doing fentanyl investigations now than 3:44:05.220 --> 3:44:08.260 there were in some years under Biden. which is remarkable 3:44:08.280 --> 3:44:12.320 when you look at how massive the budget for DHS is, right? 3:44:12.379 --> 3:44:14.620 And how aggressively they've been recruiting people. 3:44:14.680 --> 3:44:17.279 Well, no, James, they have to infiltrate the Sunrise Movement meetings. 3:44:17.320 --> 3:44:20.410 That's more important for national security. 3:44:21.209 --> 3:44:24.610 They're sitting in cars outside memorials to Alex Peretti taking pictures. 3:44:25.370 --> 3:44:28.410 The report also looked at a school called Raven. The 3:44:28.629 --> 3:44:31.250 N is lowercase, the rest is not. You could ask 3:44:31.270 --> 3:44:32.610 me why and I wouldn't be able to tell you. 3:44:33.110 --> 3:44:36.530 It's a group of analytical tools It stated that, quote, 3:44:36.670 --> 3:44:40.029 from fiscal years 2022 to 2025, HSI spent more than 3:44:40.030 --> 3:44:42.500 $ 150 million developing the Raven platform. 3:44:43.120 --> 3:44:44.560 It was not widely used. 3:44:44.640 --> 3:44:47.940 Most of the offices surveyed abandoned using it altogether and 3:44:47.959 --> 3:44:50.250 complained that it, quote, did not work and. 3:44:50.410 --> 3:44:53.740 Quote, crashed. Hell yeah. 3:44:53.760 --> 3:44:54.420 We love to see it. 3:44:54.550 --> 3:44:56.970 Yeah, it goes into like, I think this is probably 3:44:57.010 --> 3:44:59.689 something that we can, we're going to see more, right, 3:44:59.790 --> 3:45:03.390 as we continue like massively inflating the budgets of these 3:45:03.470 --> 3:45:05.950 agencies that they will just do things that end up 3:45:06.110 --> 3:45:09.379 being like a bridge to nowhere. But their attempt at 3:45:09.420 --> 3:45:13.019 some like highly sophisticated analytical tool platform that would generate 3:45:13.060 --> 3:45:15.540 leads seems to have completely, well, it's failed. 3:45:15.600 --> 3:45:17.660 They're not using it anymore. That's interesting. 3:45:18.280 --> 3:45:20.680 Something I did not mention in yesterday's episode about the 3:45:20.940 --> 3:45:26.170 ICE surveillance, in Minnesota, is DHS's use of Clearview AI 3:45:26.400 --> 3:45:31.780 to do some analysis of suspects, which identified people with 3:45:31.879 --> 3:45:35.280 similar names but are different human beings in the Clearview 3:45:35.360 --> 3:45:38.650 AI reports when they were looking into anti-ice protesters. 3:45:38.890 --> 3:45:42.170 Yeah, maybe this is what led to the famous case 3:45:42.209 --> 3:45:45.190 of Olivia Rodrigo getting detained at the border a few 3:45:45.209 --> 3:45:45.609 years ago. 3:45:45.890 --> 3:45:49.150 It used to be humans detaining a second guy named 3:45:49.250 --> 3:45:54.510 John Smith on the Do Not Fly list. Now it's automated. Yeah, 3:45:54.920 --> 3:45:57.519 those people have lost their jobs and it's very sad. 3:45:57.580 --> 3:45:59.320 But yeah, they love to use AI, right? They use 3:45:59.420 --> 3:46:02.060 AI in their surveillance towers at the border. I'm sure 3:46:02.080 --> 3:46:04.200 we'll see a bunch of money thrown at AI shit 3:46:04.240 --> 3:46:06.879 that will end up going nowhere in the next two years. 3:46:07.520 --> 3:46:11.240 Yeah, and I would not be surprised if some of 3:46:11.260 --> 3:46:14.199 the budget increases that they have received might go to 3:46:14.660 --> 3:46:17.970 some of the things that I will discuss in the 3:46:18.070 --> 3:46:34.119 next segment after this ad break. Alright, we are back. 3:46:35.100 --> 3:46:39.700 Let's return to our show's namesake. because there's a big 3:46:39.760 --> 3:46:44.910 update on Trump's March executive order to restrict mail-in voting. 3:46:45.670 --> 3:46:49.430 Earlier this week, the Supreme Court lifted one injunction blocking 3:46:49.590 --> 3:46:52.690 parts of this executive order. But as of recording, there 3:46:52.740 --> 3:46:55.800 is another injunction in a separate case that still remains 3:46:55.900 --> 3:47:01.200 in place. However, these injunctions relate to different parts of 3:47:01.260 --> 3:47:04.800 the same executive order. So the entirety of the order 3:47:05.320 --> 3:47:07.980 is not blocked by courts, and parts of it may 3:47:08.080 --> 3:47:11.940 now be able to go into effect possibly before the midterms. 3:47:13.360 --> 3:47:17.010 Let's start by talking about the injunction that the Supreme 3:47:17.050 --> 3:47:20.369 Court just lifted. A group of 23 states sued the 3:47:20.410 --> 3:47:24.330 government over Trump's executive order on mail-in voting for infringing 3:47:24.490 --> 3:47:28.570 on the state's authority to administer elections. a district court 3:47:28.810 --> 3:47:32.790 agreed and blocked the executive order. But on Monday, the 3:47:32.830 --> 3:47:37.470 conservative majority ruled 6-3 in a shadow docket, unsigned ruling, 3:47:38.209 --> 3:47:41.890 finding that the states and the lower court lacked the 3:47:41.950 --> 3:47:46.920 legal authority to block the executive order because no harms 3:47:47.379 --> 3:47:52.600 have yet come as a result of the executive order. What? Basically, 3:47:52.640 --> 3:47:56.660 it was too soon to file a challenge because the 3:47:56.840 --> 3:47:59.000 order hadn't yet gone into effect. 3:47:59.020 --> 3:48:00.060 Jesus Christ. 3:48:00.240 --> 3:48:03.859 And the plaintiffs had yet to suffer any injury. 3:48:03.879 --> 3:48:04.759 Yeah. 3:48:05.080 --> 3:48:08.240 And like, that's the whole fucking point of the shadow docket. 3:48:08.910 --> 3:48:13.050 It's based on the idea that the applicant faces serious, 3:48:13.129 --> 3:48:18.570 irreparable harm if the emergency order is not granted. Like 3:48:18.730 --> 3:48:21.250 the main example of this is like if someone's facing 3:48:21.330 --> 3:48:24.610 execution on death row, but under the logic of the 3:48:24.709 --> 3:48:29.190 conservative justices in this court ruling, such an inmate wouldn't 3:48:29.250 --> 3:48:32.750 have the grounds to stay their execution because they haven't 3:48:32.830 --> 3:48:37.920 died yet. It's completely batshit. This is not how these 3:48:38.100 --> 3:48:41.080 rulings usually work. And having this ruling on the shadow 3:48:41.100 --> 3:48:46.390 docket itself is just like insults to injury. The majority 3:48:46.690 --> 3:48:51.420 wrote that the state's supposed concrete injury was in fact 3:48:51.560 --> 3:48:57.080 only a, quote, unduly long chain of inferences. So this 3:48:57.200 --> 3:49:01.180 ruling from the Supreme Court will now allow DHS to 3:49:01.340 --> 3:49:05.760 create and send, quote unquote, state citizenship lists to each 3:49:05.830 --> 3:49:11.450 state 60 days ahead of upcoming federal elections, cataloging each 3:49:11.490 --> 3:49:16.530 person in every state who DHS believes is eligible to vote. Now, 3:49:16.570 --> 3:49:19.550 the Supreme Court does note that, quote, states are not 3:49:19.590 --> 3:49:24.350 required to use the lists, unquote. But just the existence 3:49:24.570 --> 3:49:27.880 of these lists and the creation of them could be 3:49:27.930 --> 3:49:30.260 incredibly troubling. Of course, they could be used in the future. 3:49:30.620 --> 3:49:34.240 But as James has discussed, we do not have a 3:49:34.340 --> 3:49:36.640 single list of U.S. 3:49:36.740 --> 3:49:37.320 Citizens. 3:49:38.580 --> 3:49:41.140 And the idea that DHS might be trying to, and 3:49:41.260 --> 3:49:43.580 in fact is now allowed to make such a list, 3:49:43.990 --> 3:49:48.730 for a specific purpose, could have a lot of far-reaching ramifications, 3:49:48.790 --> 3:49:49.950 even beyond elections. 3:49:50.010 --> 3:49:51.190 Yep. Yeah. 3:49:51.870 --> 3:49:53.490 It's also important to know that as of the Supreme 3:49:53.530 --> 3:49:57.740 Court's new ruling, the Attorney General will now, quote, prioritize 3:49:57.820 --> 3:50:02.200 the investigation and, as appropriate, the prosecution of state and 3:50:02.260 --> 3:50:06.240 local officials or any others who issue federal ballots to 3:50:06.640 --> 3:50:10.700 ineligible voters. So even if states are not required to 3:50:10.860 --> 3:50:14.980 use these citizenship lists from DHS, Trump is still effectively 3:50:15.060 --> 3:50:18.800 compelling states to follow these lists or else they could 3:50:18.820 --> 3:50:19.700 face prosecution. 3:50:19.720 --> 3:50:20.360 Yep. 3:50:20.920 --> 3:50:24.000 In the ruling, the conservative majority wrote that the lower 3:50:24.300 --> 3:50:28.190 court concluded states did suffer a present injury because it 3:50:28.230 --> 3:50:32.110 required them to, quote, begin planning now how to comply 3:50:32.190 --> 3:50:37.190 with the order, unquote. But the Supreme Court stated that states, quote, 3:50:37.830 --> 3:50:43.230 cannot manufacture a standing merely by inflicting harm on themselves 3:50:43.890 --> 3:50:48.550 based on their fears of hypothetical future harm that is 3:50:48.630 --> 3:50:53.560 certainly not impending this is wild this is a wild 3:50:53.600 --> 3:50:56.960 thing to say that states are only suffering harm because 3:50:56.980 --> 3:51:00.020 they're trying to figure out how to comply with the 3:51:00.120 --> 3:51:03.500 order as written and they're just doing that to themselves 3:51:03.540 --> 3:51:06.790 as opposed to that being imposed from the president Right. 3:51:06.890 --> 3:51:09.560 So the suggestion is that they would just be like, 3:51:09.900 --> 3:51:12.720 we'll not comply, see you in court when this comes in, 3:51:12.800 --> 3:51:13.400 I guess. 3:51:13.460 --> 3:51:16.300 That would be how they should approach this. 3:51:16.680 --> 3:51:18.920 And that is maybe what they are going to do 3:51:18.990 --> 3:51:21.550 going forward, because there is now a new lawsuit, which 3:51:21.590 --> 3:51:25.010 I will discuss in a second, regarding some of these issues. Okay. 3:51:25.630 --> 3:51:29.130 And again, the whole argument from the conservative court is 3:51:29.170 --> 3:51:32.430 that basically no harm has yet been done, so they 3:51:32.470 --> 3:51:35.380 can't file a challenge. However, because this is a shadow 3:51:35.400 --> 3:51:39.840 docket ruling, the court did find that this injunction would 3:51:40.660 --> 3:51:46.180 cause the government to likely suffer irreparable harm if the 3:51:46.200 --> 3:51:47.240 stay isn't granted. 3:51:48.020 --> 3:51:52.270 I love our just like cartoon Calvin Ball ruling legal body. 3:51:52.290 --> 3:51:56.750 Yeah. It's one of the most cartoon rulings I've looked at. 3:51:56.770 --> 3:51:59.150 And we've looked at a lot of cartoon rulings this year. 3:51:59.170 --> 3:52:01.130 Yeah, that's almost the only rulings we get anymore. 3:52:01.150 --> 3:52:02.530 Oh man, yeah. 3:52:04.120 --> 3:52:08.000 Now, the court does note, quote, the court's disposition of 3:52:08.020 --> 3:52:11.420 this application does not mean that any measure taken by 3:52:11.440 --> 3:52:15.530 the government to implement the order will necessarily be lawful. 3:52:16.250 --> 3:52:19.990 On that score, time will tell. But the order itself 3:52:20.050 --> 3:52:23.210 does not harm the state's So the district court lacks 3:52:23.250 --> 3:52:26.950 justification to bar the government from trying to implement it, unquote. 3:52:29.770 --> 3:52:33.370 So they admit that in the implementation of this executive order, 3:52:33.990 --> 3:52:37.020 it might violate the constitution, right? The government, the federal 3:52:37.040 --> 3:52:41.280 government might violate laws, but just the order as written 3:52:41.840 --> 3:52:44.780 can't do anything because it's just text. It can't actually 3:52:44.820 --> 3:52:49.640 do anything. So you can't challenge it. So that's all bad, 3:52:49.700 --> 3:52:52.480 but let's talk about kind of the other half of this. 3:52:53.120 --> 3:52:56.660 So this ruling did not address the part of the 3:52:56.700 --> 3:53:00.740 executive order requiring the post office to review the eligibility 3:53:00.880 --> 3:53:05.700 of voters before sending them an absentee ballot. And there's 3:53:05.720 --> 3:53:09.750 a separate injunction by the same lower court judge blocking 3:53:10.070 --> 3:53:13.930 the Postal Service from implementing their proposed rule change in 3:53:13.990 --> 3:53:17.860 accordance with Trump's executive order. This executive order directed the 3:53:17.900 --> 3:53:22.670 Postal Service to, quote, initiate a proposed rulemaking that includes several, 3:53:22.730 --> 3:53:26.370 quote unquote, proposed provisions, including a new requirement that outbound 3:53:26.530 --> 3:53:31.090 absentee ballots feature a unique barcode to facilitate tracking. And 3:53:31.370 --> 3:53:33.900 Trump told the Postal Service to not mail any ballots 3:53:34.430 --> 3:53:37.960 to people who are not on a list of eligible U.S. 3:53:38.100 --> 3:53:41.540 citizen voters. Now, in the Supreme Court's ruling on that 3:53:41.680 --> 3:53:45.160 other injunction, the conservative majority wrote, quote, If the Postal 3:53:45.180 --> 3:53:52.220 Service's final rule harms the states, they may challenge that rule. And, well, well, well, 3:53:52.500 --> 3:53:56.150 last Friday, the Postal Service outlined and published their new 3:53:56.270 --> 3:54:00.930 final rule. Quote, The rule introduces new mail piece preparations 3:54:01.070 --> 3:54:04.990 requirements and data reporting standards for federal ballot mail that 3:54:05.090 --> 3:54:09.110 must be satisfied prior to presenting outbound federal ballot mail 3:54:09.370 --> 3:54:13.840 for acceptance into the mail stream. Unquote. So the new rule... 3:54:14.270 --> 3:54:18.830 requires states to use standardized mail-in ballot envelope designs to 3:54:18.870 --> 3:54:23.220 be compatible with automated processing to display a consistent election 3:54:23.270 --> 3:54:27.840 mail logo and an intelligent mail barcode. State and local 3:54:27.860 --> 3:54:31.780 election officials will also have to use a new federal 3:54:31.820 --> 3:54:37.160 ballot mail portal to administer absentee ballots. And this portal 3:54:37.180 --> 3:54:38.720 will be used for two things. This is like a 3:54:39.000 --> 3:54:42.200 digital portal. State officials will use the portal to certify 3:54:42.240 --> 3:54:45.590 the design of of their new envelopes in accordance with 3:54:45.730 --> 3:54:51.330 the new requirements and must provide the name and address 3:54:51.530 --> 3:54:55.420 of the voter as found on the outbound federal mail 3:54:55.530 --> 3:54:59.580 ballot envelope, the issuing state and the barcode on the 3:54:59.660 --> 3:55:04.160 outbound and return federal ballot mail envelopes prior to presenting 3:55:04.480 --> 3:55:09.740 an outbound federal ballot mailing for acceptance. So that's the data. 3:55:10.470 --> 3:55:13.090 states have to submit to the postal service. It is 3:55:13.730 --> 3:55:17.830 a name, address, the barcode, and the state. That does 3:55:17.870 --> 3:55:20.690 not go as far as what Trump's executive order wanted 3:55:20.710 --> 3:55:22.730 the postal service to go, but this is going to 3:55:22.750 --> 3:55:24.510 be a new step or at least a new process 3:55:24.530 --> 3:55:26.150 to do some of the same steps that have already 3:55:26.170 --> 3:55:28.370 been kind of been done in like an ad hoc manner. 3:55:28.990 --> 3:55:33.480 And rather than this following a 60-day deadline as set 3:55:33.510 --> 3:55:36.900 in Trump's executive order, the postal service's final rule contains 3:55:36.980 --> 3:55:40.900 an optional 90-day notice for for states to tell the 3:55:40.940 --> 3:55:43.580 Postal Service that they'll be using mail-in ballots, and a 3:55:43.840 --> 3:55:49.120 recommended 30-day soft deadline to upload voter data into this 3:55:49.180 --> 3:55:53.120 new portal before the Postal Service will accept any mail-in ballots. 3:55:53.620 --> 3:55:57.280 And importantly, if states do not follow the new proposed rulemaking, 3:55:57.580 --> 3:55:59.890 the Post Office just will not accept mail-in ballots. Quote, 3:56:00.340 --> 3:56:03.690 the Postal Service will generally not accept outbound federal ballot 3:56:03.730 --> 3:56:08.730 mailings unless compliance with the rule's new standards has been verified. 3:56:09.170 --> 3:56:11.800 meaning they have to up that data into the portal 3:56:12.140 --> 3:56:15.540 and have these new envelopes. Now, the rule does note, quote, 3:56:15.980 --> 3:56:18.520 the Postal Service will not play any role in determining 3:56:18.660 --> 3:56:24.160 voter eligibility, maintaining voter rolls, or counting ballots, unquote. So 3:56:24.220 --> 3:56:27.140 they're not directly, as of how this rule is written, 3:56:27.420 --> 3:56:31.510 they're not going to be directly reviewing citizenship lists when 3:56:31.550 --> 3:56:34.770 they receive those ballots, but they will have the name 3:56:34.830 --> 3:56:37.750 and the address and the state and the barcode. And 3:56:38.050 --> 3:56:42.450 even if the Postal Service themselves will not be verifying eligibility, 3:56:43.250 --> 3:56:46.340 that doesn't mean Trump officials won't ever use this new 3:56:46.640 --> 3:56:52.320 centralized mail-in ballot portal database for other purposes in the future. 3:56:53.260 --> 3:56:58.570 The published final rule says that the after the government 3:56:58.710 --> 3:57:02.980 obtains timely relief from the lower court injunction in preparation 3:57:03.120 --> 3:57:06.620 for the 2026 election, which has yet to happen as 3:57:06.680 --> 3:57:10.179 of recording. But on Wednesday morning, a few hours ago, 3:57:10.180 --> 3:57:16.009 23 states have sued over the final rule, over this 3:57:16.070 --> 3:57:18.850 new rule, as the Supreme Court told them they could 3:57:19.090 --> 3:57:22.190 once this rule was published. So again, this rule does 3:57:22.230 --> 3:57:25.000 not go as far as what Trump wanted, but it 3:57:25.040 --> 3:57:29.580 does open the door for certain things. And combined with 3:57:29.600 --> 3:57:33.440 the DHS citizenship lists and the Attorney General being able 3:57:33.460 --> 3:57:36.760 to prosecute people who do not essentially follow those lists 3:57:36.810 --> 3:57:39.910 at the state level, this could be combined with aspects 3:57:39.990 --> 3:57:44.070 of Trump's executive order to make mail-in voting more difficult 3:57:44.710 --> 3:57:48.150 and introduce very, very, very severe penalties for states that 3:57:48.170 --> 3:57:51.100 don't follow what the executive order is outlining. 3:57:52.590 --> 3:57:54.750 Yeah this is great this has been part of the 3:57:54.790 --> 3:57:58.300 project for a while right like yeah attacking elections has 3:57:58.360 --> 3:58:01.400 been the thing that has been like the cost of 3:58:01.480 --> 3:58:04.980 entry into the Republican Party yeah since 2020. 3:58:04.440 --> 3:58:06.640 They hate the idea of people voting yeah. 3:58:06.520 --> 3:58:08.320 Like a free and fair election is something you have 3:58:08.360 --> 3:58:09.220 to be opposed to. 3:58:09.300 --> 3:58:12.890 Like that's the most disgusting thing that a conservative can imagine. 3:58:12.590 --> 3:58:15.890 Today yeah I'm sure like If I had to guess, 3:58:15.990 --> 3:58:18.530 we will see a lot more visible ice stuff again, 3:58:19.090 --> 3:58:21.670 give it a couple months, you know, right before the election. 3:58:21.690 --> 3:58:23.230 That wouldn't shock me at all. Yeah. 3:58:23.970 --> 3:58:28.890 Quick update here. After recording, a federal judge lifted that 3:58:29.050 --> 3:58:33.250 final injunction blocking parts of Trump's executive order. So now 3:58:33.350 --> 3:58:38.630 the administration is fully cleared to implement aspects of that 3:58:38.750 --> 3:58:42.690 order ahead of the midterms. That new 23-state lawsuit. 3:58:44.430 --> 3:58:47.970 Will target the Postal Service's final rule, which can now 3:58:48.010 --> 3:58:53.250 be implemented following the lifting of the injunction. For our 3:58:53.330 --> 3:58:57.770 last section, let's turn to the U.S. military. Let's start 3:58:57.790 --> 3:58:58.450 with Carlos. 3:58:59.550 --> 3:59:02.350 The oceans around the U.S. have once again become killing 3:59:02.450 --> 3:59:05.800 fields because the U.S. military carried out two strikes against 3:59:05.880 --> 3:59:08.920 vessels in the Pacific and the Caribbean that it alleges, 3:59:09.220 --> 3:59:13.190 without publishing any proof, were trafficking drugs. The first strike 3:59:13.240 --> 3:59:15.300 was in the Pacific on Sunday, and it was the 3:59:15.360 --> 3:59:18.740 first one of these strikes in roughly two months. Meanwhile, 3:59:18.780 --> 3:59:22.080 the second was in the Caribbean on Tuesday. Per The Guardian, 3:59:22.100 --> 3:59:24.940 this brings a total to 68 strikes with an overall 3:59:24.980 --> 3:59:28.340 death toll of at least 227 people since the strikes 3:59:28.410 --> 3:59:31.710 began in September of last year. These strikes come at 3:59:31.750 --> 3:59:34.870 the same time as the U.S. announced that Colombia, Guatemala, 3:59:34.930 --> 3:59:38.810 and Honduras agreed to allow joint military operations against criminal 3:59:38.850 --> 3:59:42.090 groups on their soil. It's worth noting that, per The Guardian, 3:59:42.190 --> 3:59:46.530 Guatemala denied reaching such a deal. Ecuador launched these operations 3:59:46.770 --> 3:59:49.530 earlier in March, and right before we started recording, the 3:59:49.610 --> 3:59:52.280 Ecuadorian police announced that it had dealt a, quote, strong 3:59:52.320 --> 3:59:57.840 blow against organized crime through operations Factoría and Jericho with 3:59:57.880 --> 4:00:01.590 international cooperation of the DEA and Southcom that led to 4:00:01.610 --> 4:00:02.890 the arrest of 43 people. 4:00:03.870 --> 4:00:04.830 Robert, do you want to close this out? 4:00:05.410 --> 4:00:05.570 Yeah. 4:00:06.150 --> 4:00:08.810 So as I'm going to guess everybody remembers, about six 4:00:08.870 --> 4:00:12.730 months ago, Iranian strikes crippled a U.S. base in Bahrain 4:00:13.130 --> 4:00:15.929 and damaged a major logistics hub. This is part of 4:00:16.010 --> 4:00:19.680 why the Abraham Lincoln has been running short of supplies 4:00:19.860 --> 4:00:21.420 and has been just out of a bunch of stuff 4:00:21.440 --> 4:00:23.240 because they had to redirect and move supply. We talked 4:00:23.260 --> 4:00:25.140 about this last week to the base in Diego Garcia. 4:00:25.610 --> 4:00:27.940 One of the other things that happened after that base 4:00:27.980 --> 4:00:29.740 in Bahrain was struck is that the U.S. Navy found 4:00:29.760 --> 4:00:34.080 themselves planning a hasty evacuation for roughly 1,300 family members 4:00:34.120 --> 4:00:37.250 of servicemen and women, as well as civilian employees of 4:00:37.290 --> 4:00:39.900 the Department of Defense that worked at the base. If 4:00:39.940 --> 4:00:42.880 you aren't super familiar with how the U.S. military's overseas 4:00:42.920 --> 4:00:46.030 footprint works, we've got a shitload of bases all over 4:00:46.070 --> 4:00:48.990 the world, and those bases all fall into two broad groups. 4:00:49.290 --> 4:00:51.150 You've got ones that are large and safe enough for 4:00:51.190 --> 4:00:53.450 soldiers to bring their families and to host large numbers 4:00:53.490 --> 4:00:57.010 of full-time live-in civilian employees, and you've got bases that 4:00:57.030 --> 4:00:59.220 are considered too close to the action for all of 4:00:59.240 --> 4:01:02.320 that to be safe. These DOD communities of civilians are 4:01:02.360 --> 4:01:05.940 like little chunks of suburban America transplanted to locations across 4:01:05.980 --> 4:01:08.460 the globe. They have their own schools, bars, clubs, and 4:01:08.500 --> 4:01:11.110 grocery stores. Most of my family grew up around the 4:01:11.210 --> 4:01:13.920 air bases that we have on Okinawa, and even during 4:01:13.960 --> 4:01:16.140 the Vietnam War, there was never any chance that people 4:01:16.220 --> 4:01:18.860 living there would come into direct danger, unless, like, there 4:01:18.880 --> 4:01:21.460 was a nuclear war, but then who gives a fuck? Iran, however, 4:01:21.500 --> 4:01:24.450 has the ballistic missile capacity in order to strike these bases, 4:01:24.590 --> 4:01:26.930 and this has been the case for years, for a 4:01:26.990 --> 4:01:29.110 long time. They've been able to hit these bases in 4:01:29.130 --> 4:01:30.830 Bahrain and other parts of the Middle East that they've 4:01:30.850 --> 4:01:33.950 been hitting lately, but they've restrained themselves historically because in 4:01:34.030 --> 4:01:37.890 previous iterations of this conflict, Both sides abided by certain 4:01:37.970 --> 4:01:41.170 lines and rules. Trump threw the whole playbook out, and 4:01:41.210 --> 4:01:43.350 it turns out that none of our facilities within missile 4:01:43.390 --> 4:01:46.670 range of Iran were hardened and ready to be shot 4:01:46.710 --> 4:01:48.710 at by missiles. There had not been, and it would 4:01:48.730 --> 4:01:51.930 have been extremely expensive to do that for all these bases, 4:01:51.990 --> 4:01:55.150 and nobody really thought it was necessary. And even when 4:01:55.510 --> 4:01:58.350 we started a war with Iran and knew that there 4:01:58.390 --> 4:02:00.620 was a chance they were going to start retaliating, There 4:02:00.640 --> 4:02:03.380 was so much arrogance within the administration about both our 4:02:03.420 --> 4:02:06.380 missile defenses and about Iran's lack of capability that I 4:02:06.420 --> 4:02:08.420 don't think they thought it was possible that we would 4:02:08.440 --> 4:02:11.540 get struck in any meaningful way. So the evacuation from 4:02:11.580 --> 4:02:13.960 Bahrain was chaotic and poorly executed. 4:02:14.460 --> 4:02:16.080 Laura Corte reported. 4:02:15.840 --> 4:02:19.180 On this in an August 21st article for Stars and Stripes, 4:02:19.240 --> 4:02:21.640 which is a newspaper owned by the Department of Defense 4:02:22.000 --> 4:02:25.660 that is, at least on paper, editorially independent. And we'll 4:02:25.700 --> 4:02:28.250 talk a little bit more about that later. But from 4:02:28.280 --> 4:02:31.220 that article, quote, Early in the war, a mass text 4:02:31.280 --> 4:02:34.060 message went out to evacuees directing them to contact the 4:02:34.120 --> 4:02:37.180 Navy Marine Corps Relief Society, a nonprofit that aims to 4:02:37.220 --> 4:02:40.880 assist military families during emergencies. However, when one spouse called 4:02:40.920 --> 4:02:43.060 the phone number listed in the announcement, they were connected 4:02:43.100 --> 4:02:44.700 with the National Bank of Canada. 4:02:44.780 --> 4:02:45.460 The spouse said. 4:02:45.480 --> 4:02:48.040 That gives you an idea of just how piss poor 4:02:48.060 --> 4:02:50.100 the planning was. Like no one checked. I'm guessing they 4:02:50.120 --> 4:02:53.200 probably had some AI like throw shit together for people, 4:02:53.260 --> 4:02:56.580 but nobody was like prepared to evacuate these people. And 4:02:56.620 --> 4:02:58.930 even once they knew they had to, Nobody took the 4:02:59.070 --> 4:03:02.550 care to make sure that these folks got correct information. 4:03:02.950 --> 4:03:03.150 Right. 4:03:03.170 --> 4:03:06.170 And I'm not asking you, the listener, to sympathize with 4:03:06.230 --> 4:03:08.429 a bunch of families of servicemen and women who are, again, 4:03:09.010 --> 4:03:11.760 participating in an illegal war against Iran. What I am 4:03:11.820 --> 4:03:13.920 asking you to do is look at what this says 4:03:14.440 --> 4:03:18.180 about the lack of planning and understanding of what we 4:03:18.200 --> 4:03:21.600 were getting into when Trump and his cronies started this war. 4:03:21.620 --> 4:03:21.720 Right. 4:03:22.120 --> 4:03:22.340 Right. 4:03:22.840 --> 4:03:25.540 Here's another quote from that article. Some evacuees say they 4:03:25.560 --> 4:03:27.460 have spent tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket 4:03:27.480 --> 4:03:30.280 for basic living expenses. Others are sleeping on the floors 4:03:30.340 --> 4:03:32.929 of temporary housing while their cars and furniture are stranded 4:03:32.970 --> 4:03:35.450 in Bahrain or aboard ships unable to leave the region. 4:03:35.830 --> 4:03:38.470 Many say the prolonged displacement has taken an emotional toll 4:03:38.510 --> 4:03:40.610 and worry about its long term effect on their family's 4:03:40.910 --> 4:03:44.120 financial and emotional well-being. We literally have been making this 4:03:44.200 --> 4:03:46.400 up as we go because nothing is conceived to go 4:03:46.500 --> 4:03:49.340 on for this length of time. Vice Admiral Kurt Renshaw, 4:03:49.600 --> 4:03:52.050 commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command, said on Wednesday 4:03:52.070 --> 4:03:54.890 at a virtual town meeting, when you've got the commander 4:03:55.030 --> 4:03:57.830 of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command being like, well, we're 4:03:57.850 --> 4:03:59.710 making up the evac plan and how to take care 4:03:59.730 --> 4:04:01.370 of these people as we go because we never thought 4:04:01.470 --> 4:04:03.490 that we would have to care about this. That's a 4:04:03.590 --> 4:04:05.390 bad fucking sign, right? 4:04:06.230 --> 4:04:06.850 So U.S. 4:04:06.870 --> 4:04:11.200 Naval Forces Central Command are an absent. was based in Bahrain, right? 4:04:11.240 --> 4:04:13.620 That's where their headquarters were. And we've had to move 4:04:13.660 --> 4:04:16.220 the HQ. I think it's floating right now. But none 4:04:16.240 --> 4:04:18.320 of the civilian staff who are critical to keeping it 4:04:18.360 --> 4:04:21.780 going are working wherever they've got it right now. And 4:04:21.830 --> 4:04:24.630 it's unclear where they're going to relocate to because, again, 4:04:24.730 --> 4:04:27.510 nobody knows fucking anything because they didn't plan for any 4:04:27.550 --> 4:04:31.830 of this. Furthering the confusion, the Washington Post recently reported 4:04:31.850 --> 4:04:35.390 that top Pentagon officials are currently considering a massive drawdown 4:04:35.530 --> 4:04:39.580 of U.S. military presence in the After the war ends. Now, 4:04:39.920 --> 4:04:42.900 I find this interesting because this reporting came out the 4:04:42.960 --> 4:04:46.380 exact same time Trump started threatening slash promising to make 4:04:46.420 --> 4:04:48.900 the Strait of Hormuz a US territory and charge tolls, 4:04:49.160 --> 4:04:52.890 which would obviously necessitate an expanded US presence in the region. 4:04:53.650 --> 4:04:56.690 This report was put together by people within the Pentagon 4:04:56.930 --> 4:04:59.570 who were kind of acting on their own recognizance. They 4:04:59.590 --> 4:05:01.730 were not ordered to do this. So this is basically 4:05:01.750 --> 4:05:04.360 a result of people who are somewhat smart in the 4:05:04.400 --> 4:05:07.650 Pentagon going, We cannot maintain all these bases with the 4:05:07.670 --> 4:05:10.760 increased level of hostility and knowing that Iran now can 4:05:10.800 --> 4:05:13.480 and will strike them. We need to reduce our capacity 4:05:13.500 --> 4:05:16.260 because we cannot defend all of these bases or keep 4:05:16.280 --> 4:05:19.980 them safely operational. Whereas Trump is just blasting off and 4:05:20.000 --> 4:05:21.920 we're going to take the straight and hold it. So 4:05:21.940 --> 4:05:24.740 you have inside the Pentagon people saying we absolutely cannot 4:05:24.800 --> 4:05:26.420 hold on to all of our current possessions in the 4:05:26.440 --> 4:05:29.700 Persian Gulf. And Trump just sort of making whatever fucking 4:05:29.740 --> 4:05:32.680 statements he wants to make. Per the Washington Post, one 4:05:32.700 --> 4:05:34.900 of the key areas the Defense Department is assessing is 4:05:34.940 --> 4:05:36.700 whether to pull back troops from the Persian Gulf, where 4:05:36.720 --> 4:05:39.480 America's large overseas military bases have been battered for months 4:05:39.520 --> 4:05:42.400 by Iranian strikes. And the damage to these facilities has 4:05:42.440 --> 4:05:45.460 prompted a once-in-a-generation chance for the Pentagon to reconsider its 4:05:45.480 --> 4:05:48.000 presence in the region. The Defense Department has already signaled 4:05:48.020 --> 4:05:50.370 that it might not rebuild bases as they were before 4:05:50.410 --> 4:05:53.990 the conflict. Now, again, this review was not ordered by 4:05:54.070 --> 4:05:56.690 Pete Hegseth. This is the thinking of sober and prudent 4:05:56.730 --> 4:05:58.850 people who remain at the Pentagon, and they have to 4:05:58.890 --> 4:06:00.570 do it on their own because they know that none 4:06:00.590 --> 4:06:02.790 of their bosses are going to order this, right? If 4:06:02.830 --> 4:06:05.010 it becomes immediately obvious that, oh, we actually have to 4:06:05.030 --> 4:06:07.320 do a drawdown, they'll get the order like they did 4:06:07.350 --> 4:06:09.750 with the evacuation of Bahrain, and they'll just be told 4:06:09.800 --> 4:06:12.540 to figure it out suddenly. So people are trying within 4:06:12.580 --> 4:06:15.100 the Pentagon to make sure they have a fucking plan together, 4:06:15.540 --> 4:06:17.460 knowing that no one in charge is going to plan 4:06:17.480 --> 4:06:20.950 things out properly. And there's a lot of funny quotes 4:06:21.150 --> 4:06:23.550 from that article. I'm going to read another here. Before 4:06:23.590 --> 4:06:25.610 the start of the war in February, U.S. Central Command 4:06:25.650 --> 4:06:28.210 evacuated many of its bases, judging them too vulnerable to 4:06:28.250 --> 4:06:30.850 Iranian missiles and drone attacks to maintain normal staffing levels. 4:06:31.230 --> 4:06:33.230 Some of the shifts away from the major Gulf facilities 4:06:33.270 --> 4:06:35.150 might last after the war, a person familiar with the 4:06:35.190 --> 4:06:38.490 posture adjustment said. Iran thinks we are in the traditional places, 4:06:38.550 --> 4:06:40.870 the person said, declining to specify the changes so as 4:06:40.890 --> 4:06:43.160 to not put U.S. service members at risk. And we 4:06:43.240 --> 4:06:45.830 are not. And then the article immediately goes on to. 4:06:45.810 --> 4:06:46.690 Say, six U.S. 4:06:46.710 --> 4:06:49.030 Service members were killed in a March strike on Port Shuaiba, 4:06:49.430 --> 4:06:51.750 a military facility in Kuwait, and more than 200 U.S. 4:06:51.770 --> 4:06:54.230 facilities have been damaged or destroyed during the conflict. I 4:06:54.270 --> 4:06:57.090 just find that clash between, well, we moved our stuff 4:06:57.130 --> 4:06:59.850 before the war, so Iran doesn't know where our stuff is. 4:06:59.920 --> 4:07:01.300 They think that we're in one place and we're in 4:07:01.320 --> 4:07:02.690 the other, and it's like, well, then they hit and 4:07:02.720 --> 4:07:04.720 killed and wounded a bunch of guys, because actually they 4:07:04.760 --> 4:07:06.280 had a pretty good idea of where we were. 4:07:06.300 --> 4:07:09.320 I was just thinking, as you mentioned those bases, Rob, 4:07:09.340 --> 4:07:12.380 I don't know if you saw this article Tweet, Zeet, 4:07:12.520 --> 4:07:14.940 maybe we're supposed to call it, by Barry McCaffrey, who 4:07:14.980 --> 4:07:19.420 was like... Was a US general, commanded US forces, I think, 4:07:20.100 --> 4:07:21.700 in the first war in the Persian Gulf, right? 4:07:21.920 --> 4:07:22.280 Right, right. 4:07:23.060 --> 4:07:25.440 In my judgment, the US armed forces have probably permanently 4:07:25.480 --> 4:07:29.180 lost access to 15 Persian Gulf bases. Iran now poised 4:07:29.200 --> 4:07:31.380 to control access to the Gulf states. US will have 4:07:31.420 --> 4:07:35.259 to negotiate new access into Western Saudi Arabia, Israel, Southern Europe. 4:07:36.680 --> 4:07:40.180 God, that's bad. It's sometimes just so revelatory to pull 4:07:40.280 --> 4:07:40.920 out and be like. 4:07:41.560 --> 4:07:42.060 Oh, fuck. 4:07:42.740 --> 4:07:45.900 Yeah, like a change in the global order of things. 4:07:45.940 --> 4:07:47.040 Yeah, exactly. 4:07:47.480 --> 4:07:50.620 The age of uncontested US hegemony is over, and it 4:07:50.660 --> 4:07:53.860 was ended for absolutely no reason other than a bunch 4:07:53.890 --> 4:07:56.770 of people hate Iran and thought they could just instantly 4:07:56.790 --> 4:07:57.170 win a war. 4:07:57.650 --> 4:08:00.050 Yeah, like we wound up to take a haymaker and 4:08:00.110 --> 4:08:02.490 ended up missing and falling over and hitting our head. 4:08:03.350 --> 4:08:04.610 It's like a fighting analogy. 4:08:04.810 --> 4:08:07.330 Yeah, it is kind of funny to think that like... 4:08:07.890 --> 4:08:11.600 The British Empire lost its largely uncontested power and wealth 4:08:11.640 --> 4:08:13.140 in a lot of areas because there was like a 4:08:13.320 --> 4:08:16.540 nightmarish war that cost millions and millions of people their lives. 4:08:16.580 --> 4:08:18.840 And Britain burnt a shitload of its treasure and young 4:08:18.880 --> 4:08:20.990 men fighting it. And there was another war not that 4:08:21.020 --> 4:08:23.290 long later in just the day. And whereas the U.S. 4:08:23.310 --> 4:08:24.890 was just like, I don't know, what if we just 4:08:24.970 --> 4:08:27.009 shoot ourselves in the dick for no reason? 4:08:27.730 --> 4:08:28.850 Let's see if that works. 4:08:29.970 --> 4:08:33.400 Swing and a miss. It's great. The patterns of empire change. 4:08:33.830 --> 4:08:37.410 Yeah, and that Stripes article is just there's I'll read 4:08:37.610 --> 4:08:39.230 one last quote from it just for an idea of 4:08:39.290 --> 4:08:41.780 like what this is doing to the families of these people. 4:08:42.440 --> 4:08:44.980 One spouse of an active duty sailor who requested anonymity 4:08:45.020 --> 4:08:48.520 for fear of reprisal said the repeated displacement has traumatized 4:08:48.560 --> 4:08:50.850 her children. The family first fled to a U.S. base 4:08:50.890 --> 4:08:53.310 in Germany where donations from the local military community helped 4:08:53.330 --> 4:08:55.610 them set up a temporary household. They were later told 4:08:55.630 --> 4:08:58.030 they had to relocate again, this time to the United States. 4:08:58.480 --> 4:09:00.980 She said her kids are developing serious behavior issues as 4:09:01.000 --> 4:09:02.520 a result of the move and that the youngest now 4:09:02.620 --> 4:09:06.360 barely recognizes her husband during video calls. This is all 4:09:06.420 --> 4:09:08.870 really bad. There's a lot of ugly quotes in that article. 4:09:08.910 --> 4:09:13.470 And again, this is a Defense Department-owned newspaper. Within hours 4:09:13.530 --> 4:09:16.170 of that Stripes article being published, the Pentagon went after 4:09:16.210 --> 4:09:19.770 the supposed editorial independence of Stars and Stripes. They basically 4:09:20.090 --> 4:09:22.760 wound up firing the editor in chief, the publisher and 4:09:22.780 --> 4:09:25.700 the reporter who wrote that article, Laura Corte. The editor 4:09:25.740 --> 4:09:28.140 who stood by Laura is Eric Slavin. And I think 4:09:28.160 --> 4:09:30.040 that's why he lost his job because he refused to 4:09:30.060 --> 4:09:31.960 throw her under the bus. And I do applaud them 4:09:32.000 --> 4:09:34.400 both for doing the right thing. But that is also 4:09:34.460 --> 4:09:37.980 noteworthy that Stripes has always had a degree of independence. 4:09:38.000 --> 4:09:40.080 They have reported on things that the Pentagon, the DOD 4:09:40.100 --> 4:09:42.860 didn't want them to because they're reporting on like actual 4:09:42.920 --> 4:09:45.260 issues that like troops and their families are facing, you know, 4:09:45.280 --> 4:09:48.470 and that's an important thing for that community to have. 4:09:49.010 --> 4:09:50.970 And one thing this signals is that that does not 4:09:51.010 --> 4:09:54.300 exist anymore, nor no degree of independence can be allowed 4:09:54.330 --> 4:09:55.540 when it threatens the propaganda. 4:09:56.420 --> 4:09:58.880 Anyway, that's what I got. Good stuff. 4:09:59.960 --> 4:10:02.820 Carlos, where can people find more of your journalism online? 4:10:03.220 --> 4:10:06.440 You can find me pretty much on every social media platform. 4:10:06.650 --> 4:10:12.810 My at is vaquero2xl. It's V-A-Q-U-E-R-O-2-X-L. 4:10:13.290 --> 4:10:14.390 And on It Could Happen Here. 4:10:14.770 --> 4:10:17.590 Yeah. As well as it could happen here. That is true. 4:10:17.670 --> 4:10:19.920 I forget that. But yes, I just spoke with James 4:10:20.000 --> 4:10:21.620 about U.S. colonialism. 4:10:21.720 --> 4:10:22.060 Yeah. 4:10:22.400 --> 4:10:24.920 How it started. And now it looks like it might 4:10:24.940 --> 4:10:26.060 be ending. We'll see. 4:10:26.500 --> 4:10:28.120 We're pivoting in a different direction. 4:10:28.500 --> 4:10:29.240 Yeah, there we go. 4:10:29.740 --> 4:10:32.890 What a heartwarming story. I guess there is hope for 4:10:32.910 --> 4:10:33.490 the future. 4:10:34.810 --> 4:10:36.470 That's what we do here at CoolZone Media. 4:10:37.070 --> 4:10:37.830 That's what we do. 4:10:38.490 --> 4:10:38.750 Yeah. 4:10:38.790 --> 4:10:41.150 If you want to email us, you can do it. 4:10:41.290 --> 4:10:45.200 CoolZoneTips at Proton.me. Should I list the categories of emails 4:10:45.260 --> 4:10:48.790 I will not be responding to? Because they grow every fucking... 4:10:48.550 --> 4:10:51.650 Just don't be weird in there. It's for tips about news. 4:10:51.710 --> 4:10:52.610 Don't be weird. 4:10:52.630 --> 4:10:54.110 Don't be weird. 4:10:54.230 --> 4:10:56.530 Don't be weird in there. I think that's enough said. 4:10:56.610 --> 4:10:56.900 Yeah. 4:10:56.920 --> 4:10:59.130 This is not the place to flirt with people or... 4:11:00.190 --> 4:11:02.030 It might be the place to tell us your conspiracy theories. 4:11:02.070 --> 4:11:05.890 Tell us your conspiracy theories. All right, episode's done. No, 4:11:05.910 --> 4:11:09.410 don't tell us your conspiracy theories. That's going to be horrible. 4:11:09.790 --> 4:11:14.020 Send all your conspiracy theories to at James Stout. 4:11:14.140 --> 4:11:16.320 Do you know how much I fucking work already? 4:11:16.940 --> 4:11:18.840 Anyways, put a trans girl on your couch. 4:11:19.440 --> 4:11:20.720 We reported the news. 4:11:21.820 --> 4:11:22.620 We reported the news. 4:11:29.550 --> 4:11:32.670 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 4:11:32.750 --> 4:11:34.589 from now until the heat death of the universe. 4:11:35.450 --> 4:11:37.870 It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. 4:11:38.110 --> 4:11:41.070 For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, 4:11:41.290 --> 4:11:45.710 coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 4:11:46.070 --> 4:11:48.870 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find 4:11:48.930 --> 4:11:51.870 sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. 4:11:52.350 --> 4:11:53.030 Thanks for listening.