WEBVTT - TeraWulf CEO on Sustainable BItcoin Mining and New Regulation 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:04.040 Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.920 my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.520 you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.520 with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.439 on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:23.360 at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm talking about bitcoin 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.680 and crypto. One of the issues and one of the challenges. 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.040 I think it was an initially called out, notably by 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.400 Elon Musko of Tesla, is the carbon footprint left by 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.320 bitcoin mining. Our next guest thinks they have a solution. 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.320 Here Paul Prager, CEO and founder of Tera Wolf. They 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.640 are based in Eastern East. I'm sorry Eastern Maryland. Uh, Paul, 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.879 thanks so much for joining us here. Talk to us 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:51.440 about carbon neutral bitcoin mining. Is that even a real 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.720 thing at this point? Yeah, Hi Paul here, and thank 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.520 you very much for having me on. Uh. Carols is 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.960 all about zero carbon missions. We've got sixty tho miners 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.200 on order. It's two hundred megawatts. We have fifty megawatts 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:11.199 of minor capacity targeted for this year, three for next, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.920 and eight hundred and their pipe and and and we're 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:18.759 targeting zero carbon emissions. That's not sort of getting even 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:24.000 carbon neutral, that's zero carbon emissions. Are energy resources are nuclear, 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.640 power and hydro. How do you do that though? How 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:33.959 do you get clean energy for bitcoin? So? Um so 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.760 nuclear doesn't emit any carbon, and hydro doesn't emit any carbon. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.880 And I you know, the genesis of tera Wolf was 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.200 my company, bail Wolf. I've been in the energy infrastructure 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.040 business for almost thirty years. At its very core, at 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.920 the very core, bitcoin mining is energy infrastructure. So it's 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.960 the process of taking a locally produced commodity like electricity 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.040 from a sustainable resource hydro, nuke, turning it into a 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:06.480 globally traded commodity that stores value. So that's what we do. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.200 We have a power purchase agreement on the nuclear power 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.079 facility in Pennsylvania, and we have a site infrastructure ready 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.880 that will be online this year with hydropower coming to it. 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.079 All right, So, Paul, you know, right now, the Infrastructure Bill, 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.720 and here in the studio we're watching video of the 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.320 Senators on the Center floor voting right now as we speak, 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.280 would require miners like tera Wolf to report tax data 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:30.639 to the I R. S that I don't even think 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.639 you even have access to. What would that requirement mean 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:39.200 for miners like you and for the crypto industry more broadly. Yeah, listen, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.079 I generally would say legislation and regulation is a very 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.919 good thing for the bitcoin industry, right. It just further 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.520 substantiates the legitimacy of bitcoin, So I think it's a winner. 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.960 And no matter what. Second of all, I believe that 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.760 there will be several bytes at proper legislation, UH to 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.079 ensure that we're given responsibility these for things we can 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:05.400 comply with. Um. I I know that they'll focus on 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.960 the details as it goes into the house, but generally 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.080 we like regulation. It's something again, I've been in the 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.079 power business for thirty years. We've lived with their entire life. 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.000 And when legislation does come, I think it's going to 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:22.080 come along the lines of what's the energy resource? You know. 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.080 I think it likely comes in the form of a 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.600 carbon tax. I don't I don't think that legislation will 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.880 be burdensome if you will, just because you're mining bitcoin 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.680 or holding bitcoin. Legislation and regulation in the US is 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.640 one thing, but it's not the only player that's regulating 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.360 the crypto space. I mean in China the government banning mining, 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:45.560 and I'm wondering how that affected your operations. I mean, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.880 I look at what China did as a crackdown as 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.880 opposed to responsible legislation. UM, I think it was. It 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.680 was listen net net it was. It was a great 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.360 result for us. We saw the hash rate come down, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.000 so we were able to get a bigger piece of 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.640 the pie if you're an early mover in bitcoin mining. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.960 Second of all, there was a shortage of miners um, 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.320 and and now they're readily available and there are better 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.400 prices and terms. So I think we were able to 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:21.200 sort of get a more prominent uh position, and we're 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.599 able to sort of get a bigger piece of the 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.479 pie now, uh, being that we're ready to roll here 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.160 as opposed to where the difficulty rate was much higher. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:35.080 Uh just six months ago. Did you see an influx 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:40.600 of Chinese miners after they faned mining. Yeah, there are many, uh, 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.360 you know, really good quality credit Chinese miners that are 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.320 looking to come to United States. UM. There are some 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.279 things though here that you have to think about. You 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:54.039 have to have a site, you have to have uh 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.360 it permitted properly, you have to have transformers, so you 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.360 could step down the power. So I think again where 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.279 Tara Wolf is advantages. We have these sites, we have 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.719 the electricity contracted for, we have the transformers, and the 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.880 sites are shovel ready, and so there's a there's a 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.160 significant first mover advantage. But yeah, I think Chinese miners 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.560 very much trying to come here, and I think that's 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.680 good for bitcoin. Right, you're decentralizing, uh, a lot of 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:27.080 Chinese migration to the United States, and um, I think 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:31.400 that's all a win for bitcoin. Obviously, a lot of 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:33.120 this does come down at the end of the day 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.760 to concerns about the environmental impact. And there's a lot 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.920 of conversation when we talk about investing and you know, 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.240 treating our money with the environment and mine and kind 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.240 of these e s G issues. There's a question of greenwashing. 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:47.640 How do you convince people that what you're doing a 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:53.240 Tara Wolf is not that well, you know, again, we 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.480 are about zero carbon emission, so there's a big difference 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.560 between what we do, for instance, and another mining company that, 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.520 let's say uses a thermal resource and tries to get 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.200 the carbon neutrality by buying carbon credits. We don't have 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.760 carbon emissions, so it's not an issue for us. And 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:15.760 I believe that the industry in general is very responsible 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.919 and they disclose where their energy resources are coming from, 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.120 and so I think that ultimately investors will pick and 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.760 choose based on what their approaches. I think that the 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.880 other way that will be, you know, a big factor 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.720 is going to be in value. Again, we think that 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.520 legislation to the bitcoin mining industry will come more likely 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.120 in the form of a carbon tax, So that will 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.560 drive the cost on the margins for miners that are 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.359 emitting carbon to a higher level than they will for instance, 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.039 for Tera Wolf. So I think at the end of 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.560 the day, that's where the rubber will hit the road 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.280 and people will see the difference in the value opportunity. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.760 Paul on June of this year, teara Wolf, I guess 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:06.239 you merged with Iconics a spack. Give us an update 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:10.200 on that transaction and kind of where you are on that. Sure, Yeah, 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.440 we did a reverse combination. It's not a speck. In fact, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:18.040 it's a reverse merger where we merge into a currently 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.760 listed company called Iconics icon x uh and we've filed 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.320 our S four proxy last week. We await you know, 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.000 all the customary approvals as you see everybody that needs 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:34.120 to chop on it. And hopefully, uh sometime late in 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:36.480 the third quarter early fourth quarter, we'll be trading on 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.559 the Nastack under the ticker w U l F. Wolf 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.600 very excited about. It's a great transaction. Iconics was a 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.040 great company, really clean balance sheet, and so it made 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.440 a lot of sense. And do you view now as 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.920 a friendly time to come to the public markets? Absolutely, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.640 I mean there are there are several comps out there, 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.400 so that that's a positive thing in terms of helping 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.080 people sort of take a look at at at the 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:08.840 industry and get a handle on value. I also think 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.440 that if you take a look at what what what's 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:15.400 in the infrastructure bill today, legislation means that bitcoin is 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.320 here to stay. It's part of the ecosystem. It's an 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.520 important part of it. It's an important generator revenue and 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.040 a store of value. So absolutely couldn't be a better 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.880 time for us. Well, you mentioned that infrastructure bill, Paul, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.120 and we just had the headline crossing the terminal that 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.520 five hundred and fifty billion dollar bipartisan infrastructure bill has 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.440 passed the U. S Senate. We understand that a Vice 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.720 President Kamala Harris will gabble that vote, but again, that 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.040 measure has passed. This is the first part of President 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.160 Biden's long term economic spending plans, Paul. But it has 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.640 passed that hurdle. Yeah, absolutely, and that's obviously important, and 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.360 now we will go onto the other bigger, broader spending plan. 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.240 Paul Pregor, thanks so much for joining us to really 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.440 appreciate hearing that story. Paul Igor, CEO and founder of 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.959 Tariff based in eastern Maryland. And again, as Kayleie was 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:10.880 just reporting, the Senate has passed the infrastructure pack. The Senate, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.240 as we said, is voting as we speak on this 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.840 UH infrastructure bill, and one of the hold ups was 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.040 cryptocurrency and taxation of cryptocurrency. I did not see that coming. 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.160 I was thinking about maybe they're talking about a road 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.640 or a bridge that needed to be included or excluded, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.200 but no, it was crypto. UM, let's get some color 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.400 on that. We welcome Meltem Demure's chief strategy officer for 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:35.400 coin Shares Group. They have about five billion dollars in 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.079 assets under management. Meltem, thanks so much for joining us here. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.920 What can you tell us about what is or is 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:45.960 not in this legislation as it relates to cryptocurrencies. Yeah, 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:47.600 it's great to be here, and thanks so much for 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.560 having me. Look, if there's anything we've learned over the 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.120 last five days, it's that lawmaking in the United States 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.920 is a very complicated process that many of us, as 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:02.400 it turns out, don't really understand so well. Um, I 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.080 think that's maybe an understatement. So here's basically what happened. Um. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.240 Within the Infrastructure Bill, there were certain provisions that sought 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.800 to raise tax revenue, and one of those provisions was 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.959 clearer definition around what types of entities in the cryptocurrency 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.880 space would be required to provide tax reporting in the 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.400 form of TON ninety nine and those other documents that 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.240 your broker would typically send you at the end of 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.800 the year. And one of the key issues was was 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.160 in the initial language and the proposed Infrastructure Bill, the 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.160 definition of what constituted a broker was really really broad, 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:40.760 so that it would include cryptocurrency developers, software developers, bitcoin miners, 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:45.080 people operating nodes in different open blockchain network and basically 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.040 the language was really unworkable, and so we saw flew 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.319 of amendments that came out in the three days that followed, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.800 including an amendment um sponsored by Senator to Me, one 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.200 sponsored by Senator Apartment, and another by Senator Cruise. None 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.320 of those amendments were voted on the infrastructure bill passed 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.560 as is. But certainly know that the House will be 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.440 taking up this cause. And we don't think this issue 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.200 is by any means over us as it stands. So 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.400 what does it actually mean for the crypto market and 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:20.040 crypto investors if it does indeed happen as it stands? Yeah, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.000 I think again. Um, the impact of this this bill 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.120 is that it would impose a lot of reporting obligations 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:30.560 on entities that aren't really reporting entities. A lot of 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:35.199 activity in the crypto space is done through regulated platforms 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.240 that are registered as brokers. You might know names like 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.199 claim base or krack in or Gemini, all of whom 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.400 are exchanges that operate here in the United States, and 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.120 they're already providing tax reporting documents to their users. But 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.199 under this new language, their entities like software developers who 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.360 might develop an open source piece of software that's used 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.040 by anonymous people on the Internet that would not be 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.960 responsible for reporting. And again those individuals are not going 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.840 to have any idea who's downloaded their software and how 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.320 they're using it. That's the whole point of pure to 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.679 pure open source software, because I think once of the 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.280 challenge is really the way that the law has written 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.080 and the way that this technology actually works. They're really 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.400 fundamentally incompatible. And we continue to see this on the 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.400 regulatory front. This is a new type of technology, and 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.800 I think lawmakers in DC are really struggling to understand 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.760 how it fits into the existing regulatory frameworks that we 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.480 have so maltime. I know you've spent time in Washington, 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.520 d C. Talking crypto to the folks down there, and 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.880 I registered just today about how this whole five days 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.040 maybe have illustrated the fact that the crypto industry really 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:47.720 needs to up their lobbying game. What are your thoughts there? Yeah, absolutely, Look, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.599 a number of firms have been in Washington, D C. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.040 Over the last seven years that I've been working in 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.040 this industry, and seven years doesn't feel like a lot, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.800 but for the crypto industry, you know, it feels like 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.200 like a lifetime. Certainly, I think at the end of 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.839 the day, there's sort of this fundamental misperception even in Washington, DC, 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.400 that crypto is not regulated, which is simply false. There's 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.960 an alphabet stoop of agencies from the SEC, to the CFCC, 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.480 to the i r S to the CFPD who oversee crypto, 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.640 who have issued guidance and continue to issue guidance. So 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.079 I think what's really needed is more education and advocacy. 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.280 But also I think what we're starting to see fifteen 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.920 percent of Americans own some type of cryptocurrency. This is 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.560 becoming an important voter issue and in the next election cycle, 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.280 you better believe that there are a number of Americans 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.480 who are really motivated and want to see a crypto 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.880 policy platform from their elected officials. So I believe in 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.800 future cycles, not only will we see more lobbying, more 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.559 advocacy from the crypto industry in DC, but on the 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.920 flip side, will also see more representatives more or less 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.679 the officials recognizing that in order to get elected, an 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.600 important part of their platform will need to be progressive 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.640 policy when it comes to not just cryptocurrencies themselves, but 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:08.000 blockchain technology and that critical digital infrastructure for America. But regulation. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:09.640 At the end of the day, Melton doesn't just come 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.040 from Capitol Hill and from legislators. We also have you know, 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.760 the Gensler SEC, and on that front, or you hopeful 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.480 at all that we'll see a bitcoin e t F. UM. Look, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.480 I think that bitcoin ets this is something we're an 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.760 asset manager. We don't have any products in the US market. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.960 We love to have a product in the US market, 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.120 but thus far, the regulatory regime here has simply not 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.120 allowed for a publicly listed e t F for e 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.800 TP that tracks the underlying prices bitcoin to exist in 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.200 this market. We are optimistic that in the next three 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.680 to five years we will see more structured products in 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.880 the US market, but we're not optimistic that it will 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.760 happen in the near term. Again, I think there's still 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.680 a lot of uncertainty, and we have to date no 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.760 less than thirteen et F applications that have been filed 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.920 and the number of mutual fund applications that are in process. 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:04.280 Will continue to see more filings, more applications, But I 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.320 think UM Chairman Gunsler of the SEC made it perfectly 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.840 clear that his administrations certainly does not a plan to 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.200 prove any et F or any such product construction in 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.680 the near term. So I think for us, you know, 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.360 the outlook we have is sometime in the next nine 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.520 to twelve months might be possible, but more realistically we're 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.040 looking at two at the earliest. All Right, Malton, thank 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.160 you so much for joining us. We always appreciate getting 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.000 your thoughts in perspective. Melton Demure's chief strategy officer for 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.480 coin Shares based in London, and that et F question 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.400 is really on top of people's minds, Kaylee. And as 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.520 Melton mentioned, um Mr Gensler of the SEC kind of 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.600 he's I think he's positive towards this, but let's take 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.600 our time. It seems like he just kind of keeps 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.080 punting it and punting it. Maybe a future is bitcoin ETF, 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.880 Bitcoin futures ETF. Right, he kind of gave those hands, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.560 but still we wait. Paul a lot, you have a 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.320 lot of demands, certainly for an e t F for bitcoin. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:05.840 Will follow up on that story. This is Bloomberg. Let's 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.440 bring on right now. Jack Tran, CEO of James Hardy 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:14.160 Industries based in Chicago. Dr Tron, thanks so much for 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.400 joining us here. Uh give us just remind us and 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:22.560 remind our listeners what James Hardy Industries does within the 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.480 housing market. Right, So, good morning, Paul, thank you for 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.040 inviting me back. James Hardy. We we are the company 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:34.240 that transformed the way the world built by delivering more 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:39.280 athetically beautiful, safe, and more sustainable building products that really 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:45.320 grace the exteriors of homes across UM, the US, UM, Europe, 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:50.600 and Asia Pacific. And we're we're about three plus building 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:58.640 down company UM that is quite profitable and it's growing. Uh. So, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.239 obviously you have a pretty uniqu vantage point here into 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.360 the housing market in the dynamics within it, given how 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.120 high home prices are, how quickly houses are going off 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.000 the market. Are people now just looking more to renovate 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:13.879 the homes they're currently in than trying to buy a 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.800 new one, um, Kaylee, that is a very good insight. 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.720 That is correct because if we look at the new 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.920 home construction in the US today, uh, it is not 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.360 enough home built to meet the very big growing demand 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.440 because we do have a very big group of millennials 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:39.040 now really sought to to go into housing markets with 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.080 grown family and also at the same time, we have 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.280 a lot of folks now that stay at home. The 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.439 Wolf from Home and said they would like to do 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:53.080 a lot more renovation. But with with the rising prices. 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.360 What that means is that a lot of homeowners want 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.720 to look at how they can renovate their homes um 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.960 but at the same time enhance the value of their home. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.520 So we do see a lot of activities that deal 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.479 with the outdoor, how to improve the exterior of their homes, 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:16.080 how to make their outdoor living space a lot more 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.639 pleasant and yet at the same time enhance the value 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.399 the home. All right, we just want to update our 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.480 listeners on the vote ongoing on Capitol Hill and that 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.280 five fifty billion dollar bi partisan infrastructure package. That vote 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.000 is still ongoing, but we understand that the Senate does 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.399 have the votes to pass that by partisan infrastructure plans. 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.320 So we will continue to bring you up to date. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.120 But it does look like Paul, that measure is going 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.760 to pass. Yes, that's coming in on schedule, So have 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.000 more of that coming up. Dr Trong. I mean, as 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.520 you take a look at going out here, I mean, 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.120 how do you think about housing demand, just broadly speaking, 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.040 over the next several quarters, whether it's renovation, new construction, 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:58.440 what's your market outlook? I'll walk it outlook, and it's 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.920 very robust and very wrong. Um. And what we see 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:07.200 is the renovation market will continue to grow because a 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:12.080 lot more homeowners would like to renovate their homes. UM. 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.119 So we do see that means can be grown quite nicely. 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.640 UH and certainly in new construction UH there is also 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.800 a strong demand. But that is that sector a litmited 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.280 more limited with the lack of skill, labor, and then 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:34.680 to a certain degree lack of materials certain materials. Yeah, 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:36.560 you know, we we talk a lot about supply chain 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.040 constraints in the higher input costs that have resulted from that. 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.479 Are you charging more for your products? We're We're not 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.640 charging more as much of we are offering more about 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:54.280 differentiated products. For example, we uh in in the Hardy 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.880 brand exterior product to going to outside of the root 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.480 protected homes of h of the of the house, and 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.040 what we offer is of the Hardy brand products that 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.919 have already been pre finished in our factory with paints 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.760 and that would allow the homeowners to have different design 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.840 in their homes and be able to uh to really 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:21.480 protect their homes with very durable products aesthetically flees in 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.920 product and also enhance the value of their home. UM. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.840 And that type of material is actually a lot more 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.439 easy to in install and and fast to install. So 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:37.000 essentially would provide the alternative to the homeowners relative to 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:42.879 bricks or stuck call um that's more expensive and also 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.240 slower to bill. So we we offer the alternative to 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:51.240 to those solutions. So we saw in you know, a 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.600 kind of a folks just kind of leaving urban centers, 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.520 leaving the city, is going for the bourbs looking for 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:00.639 more space. Is this a trend that you think is 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.560 going to continue and we'll see that in construction trends 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.359 or do you expect people to kind of come back 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.760 if you will, to some of those urban centers. Um, 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.760 we we do see a lot of trend moving out 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.800 into the burbs. But also lately, I would say the 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.480 past a few months that we do see some certain 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:27.200 migration back into the cities is because of the affordability 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.280 of certain homes out in the burbs. So it's quite 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.520 move moving back and forth through It depends on the 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.280 available ability of homes because there's certainly there's a lot 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.360 more demand right now than the supply. Yeah. Where there 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:43.359 also has a lot of demand is for workers. We 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.920 saw with the jolt stata here in the US yesterday 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.600 there's something like more than ten million jobs that are open, 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:50.840 more than there are in fact of people unemployed here 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.280 in the US. I know you have over forty dred 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.280 employees globally. I'm wondering how many openings you have and 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.320 if you're struggling to fill them. UM. It's certainly it 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.359 is an area that that that that we also experience 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:08.199 in the shortage of labor, and certainly in markets in 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.919 the West Coast that we do, we experience a higher 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:17.159 shortage of labor in in our facilities. UH. And you know, 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.520 it's really about come coming down to having to write 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:24.960 uh the value propriation for working at James Hardy. And 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.760 it is some something that we work very closely with 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.399 local communities to do really tell the story to be 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.560 able to attract the right candidates into our workforce. But 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.040 certainly that is UH that has been in uh in 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.040 an issue that persistence throughout the whole summer for us 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.760 as well. All Right, so I see your stock all 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.399 time high. Just real quickly, how are your earnings? We 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:54.000 we just reported our earnings and yesterday and it is 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:58.600 we're very pleased with the results. Globally, our net sales 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.320 increase by thirty five percent and our net income increased 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.560 by and what's very pleased and here is that all 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.920 three regions that we operated in North America, Europe, Asia 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:14.040 Pacific all had double digit growth in both the top 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:17.080 line and bottom line. And it's really a testament to 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.920 not only the growing market that we operate in, but 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.479 also at the same time we're able to take share 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.080 in the marketplace and deliver more values to the homeowners 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.000 across the world. All Right, Dr Jack Tron, thank you 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.679 so much. We appreciated CEO of James Hardy Industries of 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.800 strong results of just recently in the stock hitting an 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:41.720 all time high and the growth of the housing market. Kay, 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.479 we've got some wage inflation on Law Street. I think 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:46.760 we've been reading stories really over the last month or 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:48.760