Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
Speaker 1: medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
Speaker 1: or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
Speaker 1: episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
Speaker 1: podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
Speaker 1: not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. I have friends who have
Speaker 1: gotten so deep into drugs and drinking and sexual experiences
Speaker 1: that they did not consent to but thought it was
Speaker 1: okay because it was a part of their job. It's
Speaker 1: a very, very, very toxic industry, and as you said,
Speaker 1: it praised on the young, and many of us come
Speaker 1: from broken families that don't have money and are very vulnerable.
Speaker 1: On this podcast, we have talked about all kinds of relationships,
Speaker 1: romantic relationships, marriages, families, cults, but we have not talked
Speaker 1: about workplaces as much. Can a workplace be narcissistic an
Speaker 1: entire industry? I think so. While an industry or a
Speaker 1: workplace may not have a personality per se, it can
Speaker 1: have a culture and a culture characterized by minimal empathy, grandiosity, manipulation,
Speaker 1: gas lighting, invalidation, exploitation, and coercion. Well that would qualify
Speaker 1: as antagonistic or toxic. Today, we are going to hear
Speaker 1: from former model and current advocate and life coach Barrett.
Speaker 1: Paul Barrett worked in the modeling industry for many years,
Speaker 1: and his experiences shine a harsh light on a seemingly
Speaker 1: glamorous industry which is characterized by power differentials, with money
Speaker 1: being made by commodifying young people who often have little recourse.
Speaker 1: Modeling is an industry which is highly competitive to enter,
Speaker 1: carries a reputation of glamor and status, and when lots
Speaker 1: of young people who often do not have money or
Speaker 1: power are clamoring to enter an industry, it is a
Speaker 1: set up for betrayal and exploitation. This is one person
Speaker 1: story of his experience in the industry. Obviously, not all
Speaker 1: stories are the same. However, his story raises the specter
Speaker 1: of how this industry, and frankly, any industry, can keep
Speaker 1: enabling and emboldening toxic behavior. Let's hear Barrett's story. In
Speaker 1: this episode, everyone, we're gonna hear the story of former
Speaker 1: model turned activists Barrett Paul. So, Barrett, welcome. It's so
Speaker 1: nice to have you here. Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for this safe space with you. Dr Romney,
Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, thank you so much. So
Speaker 1: your story is its fascinating in so many ways, And
Speaker 1: and I think you're going to really be able to
Speaker 1: shed light on something that we don't often think about,
Speaker 1: which is an entire industry as being invalidating and antagonistic
Speaker 1: and frankly predatory. So and I think the best way
Speaker 1: for us to do that is for you to share
Speaker 1: your story within it. So let's go back sort of
Speaker 1: to the beginning. Can you share with us some insights
Speaker 1: about where you came from, how you were raised, because
Speaker 1: that often can shed light on sort of a person's path.
Speaker 1: I mean, as much as it doesn't define us, nor
Speaker 1: does it set our destiny, it definitely puts something in
Speaker 1: the groundwater that sort of can influence obviously our choices
Speaker 1: and how we feel about things. So can you take
Speaker 1: us back to the beginning of your story. I'm originally
Speaker 1: from Long Island, New York. My parents are people who
Speaker 1: I can now understand a lot better, but definitely have
Speaker 1: their own trauma and things that they have yet to
Speaker 1: still work through, and I think that that kind of
Speaker 1: manifested in their parenting and so growing up we were poor.
Speaker 1: We were evicted from four homes. Every single home we
Speaker 1: grew up and I grew up in we were evicted,
Speaker 1: And throughout my childhood there was a lot of bullying.
Speaker 1: I'm queer, and I didn't understand what my differences were
Speaker 1: in a kind way from kind of my peers and
Speaker 1: the people around us. I'm gravel. My parents were always
Speaker 1: very accepting of me and who I was just being,
Speaker 1: but as a whole, that definitely played into I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the insecurities that I had and not
Speaker 1: feeling really safe anywhere. Again, I look at my parents
Speaker 1: and understand that they did the best they could with
Speaker 1: the tools they had, but they were not I think
Speaker 1: healed themselves. So to create like a truly truly safe
Speaker 1: environment was definitely something that was not there. So not
Speaker 1: being safe anywhere, you know, does some things to you.
Speaker 1: And then as I got older, I remember just kind
Speaker 1: of escaping into movies and TV, and then finding out
Speaker 1: about modeling and thinking that this was, you know, for
Speaker 1: better or worse, an easy way to make a lot
Speaker 1: of money and maybe help my family out. And as
Speaker 1: the oldest, I've been working since I was fourteen at
Speaker 1: least one job, typically three. And then while I was
Speaker 1: probably seventeen, I became a lifeguard, and around that same
Speaker 1: time I started to kind of come out of my
Speaker 1: awkward phase. I got my braces, got contacts, got hair cut,
Speaker 1: but still wasn't like very accepted in my overall surroundings
Speaker 1: by the people that I went to school with. And
Speaker 1: the first time I ever took a picture that I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I like the way that I look.
Speaker 1: It was actually one of my brother's friends dads, who
Speaker 1: was a teacher at the school, And looking back, it's
Speaker 1: all kind of strange, like why would this grown adult
Speaker 1: man want to just come and take my picture while
Speaker 1: I was lifeguarding at the beach. But those pictures kind
Speaker 1: of were the first thing that I remember seeing. I mean, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I like the way that I look. Friends saw it,
Speaker 1: people were like, oh, Barrett, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what this means, but okay, I'm starting to
Speaker 1: get some sort of validation from people that I had
Speaker 1: never had before. That was nice. And then I got
Speaker 1: to n y U for my freshman year of college
Speaker 1: and my friends were like just good people. They were
Speaker 1: from other parts of the world. They were smart, they
Speaker 1: were interesting, they didn't judge me. They were also looking
Speaker 1: to make friends. And I remember the first time my
Speaker 1: best friends still to this day. Bianca was like, you
Speaker 1: should be a model, like you're our hot friend, and
Speaker 1: I was like, what does that mean, Like I don't
Speaker 1: know what I don't understand. And then I was encouraged
Speaker 1: by my friends to take pictures in the dorm room
Speaker 1: submit them to modeling agencies. Herd back was told, you know,
Speaker 1: if you were six ft tall, you'd be making six figures,
Speaker 1: but you're not, so we don't think we can sign you.
Speaker 1: And then eventually through the grapevine at Abercromie and Fitch
Speaker 1: on Fifth Avenue, which is the flagship in New York City,
Speaker 1: met a few models while I was working there, and
Speaker 1: they recommended their agency B One, which was the first
Speaker 1: molling agency I ever signed with, and I went to
Speaker 1: an open call while I was in the city during
Speaker 1: the summer between my freshman year and my sophomore year
Speaker 1: of college, met the guys who were running the agency,
Speaker 1: was two men. One of them was like, if you
Speaker 1: cut your hair and come back, we'll sign you. And
Speaker 1: I was like, it's just hair, sounds good to me.
Speaker 1: Cut my hair, went back, signed with them, and then
Speaker 1: it was kind of the beginning of the end because
Speaker 1: it was just really downhill from there. So the first
Speaker 1: time that I was prayed upon in this industry was
Speaker 1: a photographer. It was the very first photos shoot I
Speaker 1: ever did. And I had originally met this photographer on
Speaker 1: a platform called model Mayhem, which was the networking platform
Speaker 1: for people who want to get into the fashion industry,
Speaker 1: so models, photographers, hair stylus, makeup artist, and he connected
Speaker 1: with me and found me and inquire about shooting me.
Speaker 1: And I had just gotten really weird, not great vibes
Speaker 1: from our messages, and so you know, I trusted my
Speaker 1: instincts and my gut and was like, you know, thank you,
Speaker 1: but no thank you, being polite. I'm professional. But then,
Speaker 1: you know, eight months later, signing with this agency which
Speaker 1: no longer exists, meeting them, having them signed me, after
Speaker 1: having you know them cut my hair, and they were like,
Speaker 1: you know, the first person you're gonna be shooting with.
Speaker 1: Is this photographer the same one who I had spoken
Speaker 1: to on that model Mayhem messaging platform, and just being like, well,
Speaker 1: I can trust my agents. They want the best for me,
Speaker 1: so kind of, you know, putting the red flags that
Speaker 1: I had had in the past aside and and going
Speaker 1: forward and meeting with him, And that was the beginning
Speaker 1: of the end. Barrett's story is just one more example
Speaker 1: of how other people can undermine our intuition and talk
Speaker 1: us out of the red flags and the discomfort we feel.
Speaker 1: And this is really pronounced for younger people. The irony
Speaker 1: is that once upon a time we were taught I
Speaker 1: know I was taught this as a child, don't take
Speaker 1: candy from strangers. That's just the top of a dangerous iceberg.
Speaker 1: We really need to help children and adolescents stay connected
Speaker 1: to that intuition and teach them that the red flag
Speaker 1: may need to supersede what other so called grown ups
Speaker 1: are recommending. It's a tough line to balance on fostering
Speaker 1: a healthy cynicism and stronger intuition in children who, since
Speaker 1: time immemorial, have been told to unquestioning lee obey their elders.
Speaker 1: We dive more into this in this episode. You're really young,
Speaker 1: you know. I think we sort of like we use
Speaker 1: eighteen is this magic number, but adolescence sort of almost
Speaker 1: keeps creeping into a person's twenties. One thing you said
Speaker 1: that really jumped out of me and I found quite
Speaker 1: interesting is that when you were in Model Mayhem, that
Speaker 1: was before you got an agent, before you've got representation.
Speaker 1: So it's just a networking just to see how you
Speaker 1: know people were working through the industry. Yes, And what
Speaker 1: I find so interesting is that you your red flag
Speaker 1: meter went off with this guy, so it was on,
Speaker 1: it was working. Why do you think that was? Because
Speaker 1: I always interested when people's actually instincts are on and
Speaker 1: are working for them. Where did you think, as an
Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen year old you have the capacity to know
Speaker 1: other than a person literally saying something explicit. Where do
Speaker 1: you think that capacity to assess that situation and recognize
Speaker 1: that there was something not right here? What do you
Speaker 1: think that came from for you? I think growing up
Speaker 1: queer and never feeling safe, you develop a second sense
Speaker 1: of what is okay? What is it okay? They talk
Speaker 1: about this a lot of anti racism work that it's
Speaker 1: a double consciousness, and I think queer people have to
Speaker 1: develop it as well. And so you know, surveying a
Speaker 1: scene quickly being like, am I safe here if I
Speaker 1: opened my mouth with something that I remember doing all
Speaker 1: the time as a child. I think it developed differently
Speaker 1: for these kind of things, but I think it was
Speaker 1: something that continued and still today continues to develop so
Speaker 1: that I can understand when I am safe and when
Speaker 1: I'm not safe. You know, it's interesting with the double
Speaker 1: consciousness because it can sometimes go the other way that
Speaker 1: a person is so sort of overwhelmed by a system
Speaker 1: that is not their system, that they give in, that
Speaker 1: they capitulate they re right. And so you were having
Speaker 1: both of those experiences happen. Initially, Actually, the double consciousness
Speaker 1: element was working well for you, and I think it
Speaker 1: works well for many to be able to do do
Speaker 1: a much more pronounced safety assessment, which I think anyone
Speaker 1: from any group that's marginalized in any way by society
Speaker 1: has to learn and and in fact is often gaslighted about, Oh,
Speaker 1: don't be ridiculous, this is totally safe, right, And so
Speaker 1: then you get these folks, you sign with these folks,
Speaker 1: and then there's an attribution of responsibility given to them,
Speaker 1: and that's when you had the flip of then the
Speaker 1: sort of capitulation. So you almost had both experiences happen
Speaker 1: in a pretty narrow period of time. Definitely, And as
Speaker 1: I continue to deconstruct this situation and look back and
Speaker 1: even right now, I'm I don't think I've thought about
Speaker 1: this before. But the photographer had been a professional in
Speaker 1: this industry for like years and years, so he knew
Speaker 1: that he could go onto this platform and find new young, naive,
Speaker 1: green people and take advantage of them. So you then
Speaker 1: get assigned to this photographer and despite you having this suspicion,
Speaker 1: there was an assumption of safety that was provided by
Speaker 1: the agents. Did that lead you to look back and say,
Speaker 1: maybe I was judging the situation wrong way back in
Speaker 1: the Model Mayhem day, So you were doubting you absolutely,
Speaker 1: And see that's when the house of cards falls apart.
Speaker 1: When we doubt ourselves, that's when and we we almost
Speaker 1: It's like I can imagine a person reaching behind their
Speaker 1: back and turning a switch off on their back called
Speaker 1: instinct and intuition. And then eight months later, you then
Speaker 1: agree to meet the photographer for what you're told is
Speaker 1: actually going to be a shoot for something to sell something. Well. So, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the way that the modeling industry works is that you
Speaker 1: have to build a book, you know, that's what you
Speaker 1: use to go on casting, so that people that want
Speaker 1: to book you for a future job that does pay
Speaker 1: can look through it and go, Okay, this is what
Speaker 1: we can get from this person. And so you do
Speaker 1: a lot of what's called test shoots, and a test
Speaker 1: shoot is when you essentially do it for trades. The
Speaker 1: photographer gets photos from you, you get photos from the photographer,
Speaker 1: and it builds both of your book to then help
Speaker 1: other people want to shoot with a photographer or book
Speaker 1: you as the model. And so it wasn't even for anything.
Speaker 1: So the agents are invested in you having these kinds
Speaker 1: of almost transactional shoots because it's establishing your book, which
Speaker 1: makes you easier to book. Yes, I'm sent to meet
Speaker 1: him once quickly before it is like an introduction, and
Speaker 1: you get sent to his studio. And this is something
Speaker 1: that I continue to talk about a lot of these
Speaker 1: photographers studios are their homes, so you're sent to their
Speaker 1: position of power where they're full in control as well.
Speaker 1: But you're told that this is normal, this is how
Speaker 1: it works with so many people, and you go, I
Speaker 1: don't know what normal is. I'm not in the industry.
Speaker 1: The most information I had was from America's next Top Model,
Speaker 1: which we've now is also from TV, which we now
Speaker 1: know has also been not the greatest representation for the industry.
Speaker 1: And so I went and he was shooting someone else
Speaker 1: and I met him, and again it wasn't like the
Speaker 1: best energy. He looked at me like meat, and he
Speaker 1: had even kind of alluded to like being attracted to
Speaker 1: me in messages, So I just remember being like, this
Speaker 1: doesn't feel great. I was also not out. I was
Speaker 1: still not comfortable with my own sexuality then, so that
Speaker 1: kind of forwardness was also off putting in not wanted.
Speaker 1: We've talked about grooming on this podcast before, which is
Speaker 1: a very specific process. This is almost a related process
Speaker 1: because what this guy was doing was hanging out on
Speaker 1: this model Mayhem platform where he was being a predator
Speaker 1: and just sort of almost sussing out who we could
Speaker 1: find and then making relationships with legitimized people. And this
Speaker 1: world does not see toxic people for what they are,
Speaker 1: which is why they're allowed to run everything Okay, so
Speaker 1: they insinuate themselves into these systems, which this guy did,
Speaker 1: that gives them legitimacy and being predatory, is it? It's not.
Speaker 1: It's not a one off. It's not just the person
Speaker 1: who jumps at someone out of the bushes. It's a process.
Speaker 1: It's about infiltrating multiple systems. So he did that. You
Speaker 1: went to his studio, and if you feel comfortable, what
Speaker 1: happened when you went to his studio? Yeah, So something
Speaker 1: else I found kind of strange from the whole scheduling
Speaker 1: and you know, questions that I'm asking in my head
Speaker 1: because this isn't what I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1: Like the shoot was scheduled for night, so I was
Speaker 1: sent to his apartment like later in the day going
Speaker 1: and I knew it was going to be sexy, but
Speaker 1: my agents also needed me in clothes. So I get
Speaker 1: there and in my brain, on a photo shoot, you
Speaker 1: have hair, you have makeup, you have stylists, you know,
Speaker 1: you have a team of people. It was him and
Speaker 1: his photo assistant, and it was a rack of clothes
Speaker 1: and I remember specifically then being h and them closed.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't even like these were some really amazing
Speaker 1: high end clothes. Again, the story of my brain was
Speaker 1: you go and there's like Gucci and tom Ford and
Speaker 1: like it's fashion and high fashion at that. But I
Speaker 1: trusted the process because that's what I was told to do.
Speaker 1: There was no hair and makeup. He had me sitting
Speaker 1: in chair and he did my hair in my makeup.
Speaker 1: And again, looking back, I'm now able to understand that
Speaker 1: that was him getting me comfortable with his touch, which
Speaker 1: is so messed up in so many ways. I even asked, like,
Speaker 1: why isn't there like hair and makeup, and he's like, well,
Speaker 1: I know what I want. It's just faster this way.
Speaker 1: I don't have to explain it to someone. And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, Like what do I know. I'm
Speaker 1: brand new, I'm nineteen, I'm clueless to this world. And
Speaker 1: then from there, you know, the rack of clothes is
Speaker 1: sitting right in the middle of the living room where
Speaker 1: the whole shoots happening. It's a small apartment in New
Speaker 1: York by the way, It's not like this big, amazing,
Speaker 1: fancy apartment. It's in the lower side, so it's tiny.
Speaker 1: There's not a place or the encouragement to go to
Speaker 1: the bathroom and change. It's like you can. I literally
Speaker 1: was like you can just change right here, and no
Speaker 1: big deal, no big deal, Like that was the energy
Speaker 1: that might have even been what was said. And so
Speaker 1: I'm you know, down in my underwear with in the
Speaker 1: first thirty minutes, changing in front of him and his
Speaker 1: photo assistant, and I put on the first look. Let
Speaker 1: me take pictures, and they look amazing, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is the first time I've ever seen myself look
Speaker 1: like this. This was like a fashion photo and I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, I'm a model. And it was really
Speaker 1: interesting because I remember just feeling this new feeling I
Speaker 1: had never felt before. I think it was a sense
Speaker 1: of confidence that I had never been gifted or developed
Speaker 1: because of just all the hard things that I had
Speaker 1: gone through for so long. And then as the shoot
Speaker 1: goes on, you know, we changed clothes and then it's
Speaker 1: like we're gonna make it like a little sexier, and
Speaker 1: so you're in your pants and then you know, your
Speaker 1: shirtless and like that's okay, that doesn't feel too crazy,
Speaker 1: and then it becomes the weird part, and that's where
Speaker 1: we get down to underwear shoots, and I'm like okay,
Speaker 1: like underwear. I knew this was kind of coming. It
Speaker 1: wasn't explicitly said to me from my agents, but I
Speaker 1: had a feeling based off of what I've seen from
Speaker 1: this photographer that this was coming. And the part that
Speaker 1: was like the beginning of like just the really big
Speaker 1: yuck was that he made a point that he needed
Speaker 1: to oil me down because I didn't need to get
Speaker 1: oil on my hands in case I touched the wall
Speaker 1: and that would show up in the photo. And because
Speaker 1: I even was like, oh, I can do this nineteen uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: Like visually, I'm sure uncomfortable. I mean I have photos
Speaker 1: from when he took like my first photo of me
Speaker 1: and I'm a deer in headlights you can see like
Speaker 1: the fear in the eye, and so we take those
Speaker 1: and he's showing you along the way the photos, so
Speaker 1: you were like excited and you kind of go okay,
Speaker 1: like this is leading to something. This is going to
Speaker 1: be my book again. That then helps me book these
Speaker 1: campaigns that help me make a lot of money, that
Speaker 1: help my family out so they don't have to be
Speaker 1: a victim from a home again, so I can pay
Speaker 1: my college tuition, so that I can be the person
Speaker 1: to take care of everyone. Is the oldest in my family.
Speaker 1: He's like, you did great. You should be so proud
Speaker 1: of yourself. These photos look amazing. Your agents are gonna
Speaker 1: love them, and smiled, gave him a hug, said thank
Speaker 1: you so much, went home, cried and like blacked out,
Speaker 1: like not from drinking or anything, just like blacked out.
Speaker 1: Woke up the next day like so upset with myself
Speaker 1: and being like, what can I say to him that
Speaker 1: will get him not to use these photos anywhere? Understanding
Speaker 1: that I have to play like nice nice with him.
Speaker 1: I don't want to make him angry or upset or
Speaker 1: retaliate or say that I'm difficult. You know that's something
Speaker 1: a lot of models have finally been speaking out about.
Speaker 1: Being difficult on set. Standing up for yourself is considered
Speaker 1: a bad thing. And so I just sent him an
Speaker 1: email being like, hey, you know, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for everything. I'm so excited for these photos. I can't
Speaker 1: wait to see them. I feel like, you know what
Speaker 1: happened when a little bit farther than I would have liked,
Speaker 1: but overall again like thank you so much. You know
Speaker 1: that gratitude that you're supposed to have in this industry
Speaker 1: and him writing back being like, I'm so sorry you
Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable in any way. I won't use those photos anywhere,
Speaker 1: and I was like okay, And then it was just
Speaker 1: this dark seeker that I carried with myself for about
Speaker 1: a year before I told anyone. And I just told
Speaker 1: one friend after they disclose some really private information to me,
Speaker 1: and we just cried and hugged, and then I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: Like that's that. When we look at toxic and antagonistic
Speaker 1: relationships in the workplace, Barrett's experience is consistent with a
Speaker 1: dynamic that many in these workplaces talk about, especially in
Speaker 1: high status or sought out types of work like modeling.
Speaker 1: There was an implicit indoctrination that if you speak out
Speaker 1: or even set a boundary, that you are being difficult.
Speaker 1: And this idea that if someone does attempt to self
Speaker 1: advocate or set a healthy boundary, that they will be
Speaker 1: called difficult and then may lose opportunities, especially if they
Speaker 1: are just starting out. This can create an environment of
Speaker 1: fear and also an environment of people just acquiescing or
Speaker 1: giving into these toxic patterns. This not only sustains these
Speaker 1: predatory behaviors and workplaces, it emboldens the people who do it,
Speaker 1: and it can leave the people who don't stand up
Speaker 1: for themselves feeling a sense of discomfort, self blame, and shame.
Speaker 1: Did you continue to grow in the modeling industry with
Speaker 1: other photographers and start booking other gigs and did you
Speaker 1: ever have to work with this person again? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: stayed in New York. I mean I was a sophomore
Speaker 1: in college. I had to want to finish school. Had
Speaker 1: in school, I said that school is my priority, of
Speaker 1: saying a lot of money to go to anyone, but
Speaker 1: modeling was something that I thought could continue to help me,
Speaker 1: maybe say the bills, and so I kept modeling. I
Speaker 1: went on other photo shoots, had other bad experiences, not
Speaker 1: quite like this. Until later on in my career. Um
Speaker 1: more bad experiences would come and I ended up shooting
Speaker 1: with him I think four times altogether. He's also much older,
Speaker 1: like not that that makes it one thing or another,
Speaker 1: but when I was nineteen, he was at least I
Speaker 1: think fifty. What that's a big issue. Absolutely, There's a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of power that comes with age, with a
Speaker 1: presumption of establishment in the industry. It's that that matters. Yes,
Speaker 1: societal power he gets from that absolutely. And so how
Speaker 1: long were you in New York modeling? Did you finish school?
Speaker 1: I finished school, so you were four years there because
Speaker 1: you're on the sophomore so you were there for a while,
Speaker 1: continuing to book gigs and build up build as a model.
Speaker 1: I now you're working as a model and making money
Speaker 1: as a model. Kind of what you aren't told about
Speaker 1: this industry is that a lot of it's working for free,
Speaker 1: and you're supposed to be grateful for it. So I
Speaker 1: was a lifeguard at university as well. I was a
Speaker 1: cater waiter while I was in school as well, because
Speaker 1: I needed to be making money to support myself. And
Speaker 1: then got to l a through the means of meeting
Speaker 1: a model on Facebook who had found me and was
Speaker 1: like crushing it from what it looked like on their Facebook.
Speaker 1: And he was like, Yeah, I have this manager who's
Speaker 1: amazing that's really helped me. You should meet him. Maybe
Speaker 1: he'll like you, maybe he'll want to help you out.
Speaker 1: And at this point I was a junior in college
Speaker 1: and had kind of learned that the industry was going
Speaker 1: to be like this, and it's a lot of you,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, grooming right like you, one thing happens
Speaker 1: and you go, Okay, well that's normal. So like another
Speaker 1: thing happens that's also normal. And then I got to
Speaker 1: finished school, tol decided I wasn't going to go and
Speaker 1: do law school because that was the plan. I was like,
Speaker 1: I just need to do me. I realized my parents
Speaker 1: didn't even know what my major was by the time
Speaker 1: I graduated, and I was senior class president, like high honors,
Speaker 1: all these things to impress them, and they didn't even
Speaker 1: know what I was going to school for. And I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to go to law school to
Speaker 1: impress them, like what they don't even care what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: And so ended up having an opportunity to move to
Speaker 1: l A because of the manager that I had met
Speaker 1: through that model on Facebook. Got out there six weeks
Speaker 1: after graduation. Was standing at l A X very movie
Speaker 1: scene like waiting for this person I had never met
Speaker 1: in real life, had never seen in real life, just
Speaker 1: had spoken to on the phone, had made a lot
Speaker 1: of promises and put ideas into my brain about l
Speaker 1: A being great for me. I was on hold for
Speaker 1: all these jobs, but they never came through. It was
Speaker 1: always like to the very end, like one job that
Speaker 1: I look back on that I'm like it was not
Speaker 1: even of course it wasn't real, Barrett, but like twenty
Speaker 1: year old Barrett was like, this could be amazing. It
Speaker 1: was a Motorola phone campaign shooting in South Africa, Like
Speaker 1: you put these red flags down because I want this.
Speaker 1: I've already been through so much. I'm going to push
Speaker 1: and make this happen. I can do this. And then
Speaker 1: getting to l A, waiting at the airport for him,
Speaker 1: he shows up in a car that is old and
Speaker 1: I'm not by any means materialistic. Again, I grew up
Speaker 1: quite poor. But when you expect someone who's making good
Speaker 1: money and going to make you good money, and they
Speaker 1: make money off of your career, you expect them to
Speaker 1: have some sort of, you know, nice ish things. Picked
Speaker 1: me up in a Gold's Malibu that was two doors
Speaker 1: and only the driver door opened, so I had to
Speaker 1: climb in through the driver's door to get into the
Speaker 1: past your seat. And then he drove us to his
Speaker 1: home that he had offered to let me stay with
Speaker 1: him while I figured out my l A life, because
Speaker 1: I didn't know anyone in l A, but I was
Speaker 1: told it would be good for me from this person
Speaker 1: who I was connected to from this model. We get
Speaker 1: to his apartment. It is a studio apartment, and there
Speaker 1: was another model in there sitting and playing video games,
Speaker 1: and I was like okay, like again not just me
Speaker 1: and him, but like feeling all my spidy senses going
Speaker 1: off again. And then for the next I want to say,
Speaker 1: about a month was just gas lit over and over.
Speaker 1: Anytime I would ask a question about something, I wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed to sleep on the futon. I had to sleep
Speaker 1: in the bed next to him because the futon was
Speaker 1: so hard to open and pull out, And then realizing
Speaker 1: that he had stole money from me, and being like
Speaker 1: I need to get out of here, and then getting
Speaker 1: out of that. So you get to l A and
Speaker 1: you're told by someone you trusted, here's a manager. Manager. Clearly,
Speaker 1: this is not the the dots are not connecting. Did
Speaker 1: you ever ask the friend and say to him, what
Speaker 1: is this? What is happening here? Because again that much
Speaker 1: like the agent early on, was what legitimized the initial
Speaker 1: predatory photographer, this friend legitimized, which again clearly another predatory situation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that specific model was not anyone I ever met
Speaker 1: in real life. We had met their face Facebook, and
Speaker 1: I had been given just like enough validation from other
Speaker 1: people about this manager, because these people are great and
Speaker 1: making themselves look larger than life and having more connections
Speaker 1: than they do, or making connections that you could probably
Speaker 1: make on your own, but not knowing that because you're
Speaker 1: so fresh and new. And after figuring out that this
Speaker 1: person stole money from me that I didn't have, I
Speaker 1: was on set of a photo shoot with a photographer
Speaker 1: who was complaining about money and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you're getting paid to do this right now, because I
Speaker 1: paid to do this, and he's like, I'm not getting
Speaker 1: paid and I was like, that's it, Like all the
Speaker 1: red flags have gone off. Officially, I'm done. You're taking
Speaker 1: me back to this person's apartment. I'm getting my stuff,
Speaker 1: and you're taking me somewhere else. And I didn't really
Speaker 1: know anyone, so I went to another person's home that
Speaker 1: I kind of knew that was kind of Savor. And
Speaker 1: then after staying in l A for two months instead
Speaker 1: of one, because things actual we went well. I got
Speaker 1: back to New York with sitting in my room on
Speaker 1: my phone looking at the model who had originally introduced
Speaker 1: me to him, and finally, like a wave of duh,
Speaker 1: Barrett realized that that had been the manager cat fishing me. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: it was him the whole time. I found me see
Speaker 1: I see okay, got it and figured out a way
Speaker 1: to get to me and use me. And again this
Speaker 1: was not his first time. I later found out he
Speaker 1: had done this for years, so it was very coercive.
Speaker 1: This again, once again a very coercive situation, which is
Speaker 1: really the sense of not having options, being financially controlled,
Speaker 1: being controlled to a place to live, and all of that.
Speaker 1: So you stand up and you say I'm not doing this,
Speaker 1: you move in with a friend. Did you continue to
Speaker 1: stay in the modeling industry at that point? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: stayed in it for like I was nine team when
Speaker 1: I started, and I was about twenty nine when I
Speaker 1: finally left. So over the course of that ten years, then,
Speaker 1: were there trusted people you ever encountered? It sounds like
Speaker 1: I'm hearing that the overtone of this industry was very predatory.
Speaker 1: I met people through out the industry who I don't
Speaker 1: know if I would say we're like trustworthy. I met
Speaker 1: some people. There's one person in particular who I met
Speaker 1: actually through this manager who I'm still friends with today,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a good person. Majority of my experiences,
Speaker 1: and by majority I mean possibly more, we're not good.
Speaker 1: They were predatory. They were people who were attracted to
Speaker 1: me and trying to get in my pants. And then
Speaker 1: the hardest part was then feeling comfortable to start speaking
Speaker 1: out in while I was still in it and just
Speaker 1: alluding to things. And I want to say this that
Speaker 1: I only went back each time to that first person
Speaker 1: because I thought I could finally hold my own, and
Speaker 1: each time I shot with him, it wasn't a good experience.
Speaker 1: It was assault in some way. The last time, the
Speaker 1: fourth and final time, was the final time that actually
Speaker 1: did something with him where I was paid. I held
Speaker 1: my own and I got out of there, and I said,
Speaker 1: it will never go back to that, because I finally did.
Speaker 1: I needed to for myself that I shouldn't have had
Speaker 1: to go back there ever. But I didn't have anyone
Speaker 1: guiding me. Right, That's one thing I'm hearing too. Modeling
Speaker 1: such a troubling industry to me, because the commodity is
Speaker 1: another human being, and in a very superficial way, right,
Speaker 1: one could argue that people are commodities and all kinds
Speaker 1: of industries. That's see what human resources is about, right,
Speaker 1: but it is about something deeper in them, their intellect,
Speaker 1: even sometimes their physical ability. But in this case, it's
Speaker 1: really merely how someone looks, and a young person looks right.
Speaker 1: With very rare exceptions, every so often you have a
Speaker 1: person who's, you know, of an more advanced stage, who
Speaker 1: might be a model, But by and large these are
Speaker 1: people in their teens into their twenties, and that that's
Speaker 1: pretty much the end of the line. And so there
Speaker 1: is a commodification of the literally the physical presence, the skin,
Speaker 1: the hair, the eyes, the bones that we don't see
Speaker 1: in any other industry. Even an actor or an actress,
Speaker 1: a performer gets up there and is singing a song
Speaker 1: or saying words. So without a person who really truly
Speaker 1: has your back, who's interested in you as you and
Speaker 1: not you as this sort of skin and bones commodity,
Speaker 1: I don't see how anybody could be safe in this industry,
Speaker 1: regardless of gender. And no one is. And that's the
Speaker 1: thing that I continue to talk about. I mean, we've
Speaker 1: even't seen celebrities, children's go into the industry and then
Speaker 1: talk about bad experiences they've had because you think that
Speaker 1: the money is going to protect them, but it doesn't. Also,
Speaker 1: as a man, we are toxically trained to stand up
Speaker 1: for yourself, defend yourself, you know, bite your lip and
Speaker 1: just get through things, don't talk about your feelings, and
Speaker 1: the industry praised on that as well. I've talked about
Speaker 1: why I think it was harder as a queer model
Speaker 1: to be in the industry, because when a queer man,
Speaker 1: a queer photographer, let's say, makes advances on a straight
Speaker 1: guy and he goes no, not into it, he at
Speaker 1: least has the defensive I'm straight. A queer man telling
Speaker 1: a queer photographer I'm not interested is a direct I'm
Speaker 1: not interested in you. Yeah, yeah, you're right, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: get that. Verret I get that would be like a
Speaker 1: woman saying that to a straight male photographer. Is a
Speaker 1: person looking out into this industry has never had any
Speaker 1: meaningful contact with the industry. I see the pictures and
Speaker 1: but that's it. That's the extent of my my knowledge
Speaker 1: of it. But the portrayal to us, especially in the
Speaker 1: era of social media, is incredibly glamorous. It is a job.
Speaker 1: Someone would want you travel the world, you wear beautiful things.
Speaker 1: People covet the image you're putting out there, because I remember,
Speaker 1: we're seeing a person in the chanel and the goucy.
Speaker 1: I guess we're making an attribution. They must have the
Speaker 1: money to wear all these things, so that these are
Speaker 1: people who are making lots of money and living in
Speaker 1: penthouses and driving fancy cars. You're saying that's not the case.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's maybe a couple of people who are
Speaker 1: doing that, but that's not normative number one. Yet, it
Speaker 1: is still an incredibly sought out job, and it's one
Speaker 1: where the window of opportunity is minuscule. And so what
Speaker 1: I'm hearing from you for a relatively significant majority of individuals,
Speaker 1: if they want to persist and keep going forward in this,
Speaker 1: unless they have someone who is literally invested in their protection,
Speaker 1: maybe a very involved family member or someone else who.
Speaker 1: But even then, but even then, the vibe still feels predatory.
Speaker 1: So even if somebody's not being physically assaulted, there is
Speaker 1: something there about that commodification that to me, it's just
Speaker 1: all it's all the hallmarks of a toxic relationship. It
Speaker 1: really is, And and I would say that that that's
Speaker 1: that to me as a psychologist, is troubling just even
Speaker 1: the foundational elements of what this industry is that has
Speaker 1: very few protections built in. There's no protections. Models are
Speaker 1: considered freelance, independent contractors, so you're not protected by your
Speaker 1: management and agents. Listen. I'm sure if a legitimate person
Speaker 1: from a legitimate large modeling agency was sitting here, they
Speaker 1: would probably say, no, we beg to differ. We take
Speaker 1: very good care of the people. I mean, unless you're
Speaker 1: you're unless you're shadowing them twenty four seven. I don't
Speaker 1: see how you could protect them because I think by definition,
Speaker 1: the industry is actually going to attract predatory individuals. Right,
Speaker 1: So predatory individuals are show up in every industry, but
Speaker 1: I think that you're going to get sort of a
Speaker 1: critical mass here. You also said something else very interesting,
Speaker 1: which is this whole idea of a person who has
Speaker 1: very little power then being concerned about being labeled difficult.
Speaker 1: In essence, setting a boundary would automatically make somebody difficult.
Speaker 1: In this space like this, where the stakes are seemingly high,
Speaker 1: there's so many other people that would step into the role.
Speaker 1: And I think that's also complicated too. When there's a
Speaker 1: thousand other people who are also beautiful, who are willing
Speaker 1: to step in and get that picture taken. They're saying,
Speaker 1: we're not boundaries. I don't think so next, and so
Speaker 1: that creates silence when you label someone is difficult for
Speaker 1: actually doing something appropriate. Again, another form of gas lighting
Speaker 1: where which effectively ultimately silence is someone and leaves them
Speaker 1: wondering maybe I am being difficult. My session with Barrett
Speaker 1: will continue after this break. So you came out while
Speaker 1: you were in the modeling industry, which I cannot I
Speaker 1: cannot think of a worse way to possibly have a
Speaker 1: person come out when you're trying to come into your
Speaker 1: real self into an industry that wants you to be anything.
Speaker 1: But how did that play out? Ultimately at the end
Speaker 1: of your modeling career. It sounds like you were very
Speaker 1: you were out. People knew that you were a model
Speaker 1: in the industry and you're also gay. But how did
Speaker 1: that process Other than being made to take these ridiculous
Speaker 1: swag classes, how else did this playoff? Coming out in
Speaker 1: that space? Yeah, I mean when I, you know, started
Speaker 1: to become more comfortable in my own unique sexuality. And
Speaker 1: at this point I use queer because I think it's
Speaker 1: so broad and beautiful. But I was told by all
Speaker 1: these older gay men that if you really want to
Speaker 1: make it in his career, you can't have a boyfriend,
Speaker 1: you can't go to gay bars, you can't work at
Speaker 1: the gay bar that you I was working at gay
Speaker 1: bar to make extra money at this point, just all
Speaker 1: these things, and as you said, it was stripping me
Speaker 1: of my authenticity. And I had this moment that was
Speaker 1: very clear. I said, I'm always going to be acting.
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna get to be myself, and that feels awful.
Speaker 1: I've been so insecure about all these things my whole life,
Speaker 1: and you're just perpetuating it. And I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: going to be able to pass for straight as much
Speaker 1: as you all tell me I can, even if I
Speaker 1: was to try as hard as I could and be
Speaker 1: okay with myself mentally. And so at the end of
Speaker 1: my l A life, I had a very serious conversation
Speaker 1: with myself and knew I had to leave l A
Speaker 1: if I was going to make any kind of change,
Speaker 1: and so I quit everything. I call this my quarter
Speaker 1: life crisis. I for the first time shaved my hair,
Speaker 1: which was a rebellious act because my hair was such
Speaker 1: a part of my career the entire time. I broke
Speaker 1: up with my long distance, long term boyfriend, who had
Speaker 1: also just been part of the confusing stuff because he
Speaker 1: was also older. I broke up and ended my side
Speaker 1: career as a server in West Hollywood, and then I
Speaker 1: ended my my modeling and acting career and went back
Speaker 1: to New York and was really sad and didn't know
Speaker 1: what I was going to do for a while, but
Speaker 1: it was like home. It's where I went to universities
Speaker 1: where I was from. I went back to the city
Speaker 1: and stayed with friends and bounced around and couch served
Speaker 1: for probably years really, even in l A. And then
Speaker 1: had this moment in the winter where I had literally
Speaker 1: just felt like I was at my lowest, and I said,
Speaker 1: I don't ever want to be able to go backwards.
Speaker 1: And so I wrote this coming out letter. I was
Speaker 1: around twenty four at this point, and put it on
Speaker 1: Facebook and took like a big breath as I hit published,
Speaker 1: and it was really beautiful messages from again the people
Speaker 1: I knew who were my friends because it was Facebook.
Speaker 1: And then it became the first thing that I ever
Speaker 1: published on having him post as a contributing writer, and
Speaker 1: that kind of went off into another sphere. And I
Speaker 1: had been told my whole career up until this point
Speaker 1: that coming out was going to ruin my career and
Speaker 1: end me. I was not gonna have any opportunities, and
Speaker 1: it kind of gave me a different sense of notoriety.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I was out model Barrett Paul,
Speaker 1: and I was being featured in all these different publications
Speaker 1: as this game model. And it was awesome because a
Speaker 1: lot of people with public, you know, recognition, weren't out.
Speaker 1: And it was in a lot of ways like wonderful
Speaker 1: and healing, but also a really big responsibility that was
Speaker 1: put on someone's shoulders that was not ready for it.
Speaker 1: And no one was guiding me again in this new space.
Speaker 1: And then the queer community was welcoming and then not
Speaker 1: welcoming at a point. And it's been a very interesting journey, interesting, complicated, painful.
Speaker 1: More than anything, I hear the pain of it. We
Speaker 1: will be right with this conversation with Barrett. We've been
Speaker 1: talking about you in the modeling industry and you you
Speaker 1: had a very treacherous journey, So it doesn't sound like
Speaker 1: a unique one. I'd imagine you've talked with peers, men, women, trans,
Speaker 1: every non binary, everyone you've talked about enough people have
Speaker 1: had similar experiences. And my correct yes, and part of
Speaker 1: my reason for speaking out as loud as I am
Speaker 1: now as I've lost friends. The industry has made people
Speaker 1: take their own lives. And I don't doubt that for
Speaker 1: a second. Like I have friends who have gotten so
Speaker 1: deep into drugs and drinking and sexual experiences that they
Speaker 1: did not consent to but thought it was okay because
Speaker 1: it was a part of their job. It's a very, very,
Speaker 1: very toxic industry and as you said, it praised on
Speaker 1: the young, and many of us come from broken families
Speaker 1: that don't have money and are very vulnerable. So I
Speaker 1: think what's surprised rising Brett is though we've seen this
Speaker 1: in bits and pieces, someone I've gotten to know who's
Speaker 1: in this industry, he's given me the rundown on him
Speaker 1: many top notes similar to yours. And I always find
Speaker 1: it laughable that the sixteen year old strutting down the
Speaker 1: catwalk is supposed to be modeling what a fifty year
Speaker 1: old woman is supposed to wear to work. I'm like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: and so that to me is already even where the
Speaker 1: fashion industry and the modeling industry come to a confluence,
Speaker 1: which is, I see how problematic it is. So we
Speaker 1: can say this until we're blue in the face. And
Speaker 1: this is a world where many people want to be
Speaker 1: a model, and social media has pushed that over a threshold.
Speaker 1: I've been told about this concept of the Instagram model.
Speaker 1: So these are people who, at one level, I think,
Speaker 1: kind of taking control of their own destiny because they're
Speaker 1: putting up their own images and spending time styling them
Speaker 1: and putting them out there. And I guess with the
Speaker 1: hope that if they get enough traction and enough of
Speaker 1: an audience that they would make money through sponsorship or
Speaker 1: things like that. But I could imagine again, only a
Speaker 1: small percentage does that where and other people may be
Speaker 1: spinning their wheels, which frankly, I sometimes get concerned that
Speaker 1: at a young age, or pulling themselves out of other
Speaker 1: opportunity streams, whatever those look like. It might be higher education,
Speaker 1: it might be careers, whatever. But the fact is I
Speaker 1: can say all this, and ultimately many many people want
Speaker 1: to do this. Okay, So even what you say today,
Speaker 1: what you say in all of your content, they're listening
Speaker 1: to you, they're like, oh, that's interesting, and they're still
Speaker 1: going to do this. You have some viral videos out
Speaker 1: there which I watched and listen to, and one of
Speaker 1: them you said there's five things you should never do
Speaker 1: when being a model. So you, in some ways bear
Speaker 1: are becoming that voice in that protection you wish you
Speaker 1: had had when you're in this industry, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: would actually be a really nice role for you to
Speaker 1: be that safety mentor for some folks. But I'm sure
Speaker 1: that may not be something you want to take on.
Speaker 1: But I think you're doing this through your content right
Speaker 1: is you're saying that there's five things that you should
Speaker 1: never do when being a model. Five things I will
Speaker 1: never do again after being a professional model for ten years.
Speaker 1: One work for exposure. You don't need more exposure. You
Speaker 1: need money to pay your rent. The people claiming that
Speaker 1: you're going to get exposure also can't guarantee that exposure,
Speaker 1: so just remember that too. Go to a photographer's apartment
Speaker 1: because that's their studio. It's not safe. You should not
Speaker 1: be doing this. On my first photo shoot as a model,
Speaker 1: I was essayed at the photographer's studio, which was his apartment.
Speaker 1: Three do not sign any contracts or anything for that matter,
Speaker 1: without a lawyer or someone you really trust looking over it.
Speaker 1: At nineteen, I had no business signing model releases, contracts,
Speaker 1: all these things that were just put in front of me,
Speaker 1: and people like, oh, it's standard, it's standard. Do not
Speaker 1: sign anything for manipulate my body to fit into close
Speaker 1: The clothes can be manipulated to fit on you. Your
Speaker 1: body is a temple and five an industry. Tell me
Speaker 1: what I look like because the entire industry is meant
Speaker 1: to prey on your insecurities, and it's run by a
Speaker 1: bunch of insecure people. Some of them are structural, some
Speaker 1: of them are sort of more kind of global. Do
Speaker 1: you want to reflect on that? It's more of what
Speaker 1: are you hoping to do through creating this awareness? Because
Speaker 1: I actually think that any you, like I said, anyone
Speaker 1: come around a psychologist or an expert. No, don't do this,
Speaker 1: and people will please girl, But when you're doing it,
Speaker 1: you've you were there. What's your hope in doing all
Speaker 1: of this? My hope is to help others not go
Speaker 1: through what I've been through. I wish that I had
Speaker 1: had to bear it at every point in my life.
Speaker 1: It's why I'm now a professional life coach. It's now
Speaker 1: why I speak actively against the modeling industry. It's I
Speaker 1: just wish I had had someone like me, at least
Speaker 1: giving me insight to go. You can get into this,
Speaker 1: but here are some things to look out for. Trust
Speaker 1: your instincts. You can say no to things. This is
Speaker 1: not the end all be all. This is not always
Speaker 1: your big moment, in your big break point. Oh one
Speaker 1: percent or something like that. Of models will actually be
Speaker 1: making the kind of money that we think models are making,
Speaker 1: and most of them are celebrities, children who are already wealthy,
Speaker 1: so they don't have to worry about paying their rent,
Speaker 1: and they don't have to worry about what it's like
Speaker 1: to run around or if they have to fly themselves
Speaker 1: to another state or country first shoot, because models a
Speaker 1: lot of the time have to cover their own travel expenses.
Speaker 1: A big problem in this industry is debt bondage. And
Speaker 1: like I had a job, My first international job was
Speaker 1: in my orc of Spain, and I remember getting booked
Speaker 1: for this and being so excited and getting there and
Speaker 1: doing the job and it was amazing, and then fighting
Speaker 1: for years to get paid for this five thousand dollar
Speaker 1: euro job and getting four U S dollars after all
Speaker 1: the things my agency took away from me, my travel,
Speaker 1: the model's apartment, the amount of expenses that go into
Speaker 1: being on the website. So let me ask you this,
Speaker 1: as somebody who's pointing out these exploitative practices in this industry,
Speaker 1: do you get pushed back from the modeling industry? I
Speaker 1: get a ton of pushback. And I knew that when
Speaker 1: I was going to say everything that I said, I
Speaker 1: had to end my career because I wasn't going to
Speaker 1: be able to work anymore. And it was it's either
Speaker 1: this or that, there's no more doing both. And I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful in many ways for social media because it
Speaker 1: gave me the power to take my career into my
Speaker 1: own hands. I didn't have to go through agents and
Speaker 1: managers to get my photos out there. I could put
Speaker 1: them out there myself. That's not to say that social
Speaker 1: media is a great industry and that it's not full
Speaker 1: of its own predators and awful industry practices. I actually
Speaker 1: think that influencers are today's version of what models used
Speaker 1: to be, where it's like, not great contracts, it's not
Speaker 1: really looking up for you in your protection it's a
Speaker 1: lot of working for free in the hopes that it's
Speaker 1: going to lead to something else, and we do. We
Speaker 1: sell this idea of like, look how amazing my life is.
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm really grateful happened in terms of
Speaker 1: like a big Okay, it's time to make changes with myself.
Speaker 1: I realized all these things that I was putting out,
Speaker 1: we're pushing people to want to do this, and if
Speaker 1: I didn't speak out, I was gonna be a part
Speaker 1: of the problem. I was sending people to the first
Speaker 1: photographer because I have those pictures on my Instagram. You
Speaker 1: know what, Barrett, I thank you for framing it that way.
Speaker 1: That's such an interesting insight. Just when you said I
Speaker 1: was like, of course, that was the click moment. Just
Speaker 1: by having that affiliation out there, you legitimized him. It
Speaker 1: was never your intention, but if somebody dug deep and
Speaker 1: they saw the photo credit, that is a legitimization. And
Speaker 1: and again it becomes a numbers game. He was older, right,
Speaker 1: so at at fifty, he'd probably been doing it since
Speaker 1: he was twenty. That's thirty years of stuff he has
Speaker 1: out there that's affiliated with him, and he can't be
Speaker 1: the only one. But like I said, I can't imagine
Speaker 1: that this industry, like any predatory industry, does not want
Speaker 1: somebody coming in and sort of blow the top off
Speaker 1: of this. And you're saying things that we would suspect,
Speaker 1: but you're really sort of putting a brighter light on it.
Speaker 1: But that was such an interesting point, Barrett, that as
Speaker 1: long as I had those pictures put out there and
Speaker 1: those I'm endorsing this in many ways. And I think
Speaker 1: we It's funny. I often talk about how so many
Speaker 1: of us and and and I do I do it too.
Speaker 1: We're all guilty of it, all of us in this room,
Speaker 1: everyone's building of being unwitting enablers, right, So you know
Speaker 1: the challenges, and I work run into this with clients
Speaker 1: to give it to you. It a smaller example, people
Speaker 1: will say, there is too horribly abuse of people in
Speaker 1: my family system, and I show up to that family
Speaker 1: holiday dinner, and in a way, my presence at that
Speaker 1: table making small talk is sort of signing off on
Speaker 1: their behavior and people can feel a lot of shame.
Speaker 1: And something that's come up in this podcast more than
Speaker 1: a few times with diverse stories is this idea of
Speaker 1: moral injury that have I in the course of trying
Speaker 1: to stay alive and do my job, that I've directly
Speaker 1: harmed people or even indirectly, but I've harmed people as
Speaker 1: just say that. That is a shame unlike any other.
Speaker 1: And it's so unfortunate because they're not doing a bad thing,
Speaker 1: They're merely showing up. And so it seems like the
Speaker 1: people who aren't as toxic actually have to make some
Speaker 1: even bigger, painful decisions and basically culls from their life
Speaker 1: so they don't feel like they are, in essence emboldening
Speaker 1: the toxic actors in their life. Absolutely. I mean I
Speaker 1: had to really sit with the fact that I was
Speaker 1: about to blow my own life up, my source of income,
Speaker 1: all these things that had given me the life that
Speaker 1: I have now that I'm really grateful for, and that
Speaker 1: was all going to go away. I wasn't continuing to
Speaker 1: advance myself in other ways. And that's why I tell everyone,
Speaker 1: if you want to be a model, maybe think about
Speaker 1: having other avenues of income or leaning into your minds
Speaker 1: that you're not just this. You know, the French call
Speaker 1: it many kin, that's the word for model, and I
Speaker 1: think it's so insightful to how you are just a
Speaker 1: thing at the end of the day in this industry,
Speaker 1: and you're not meant to have a voice or an opinion.
Speaker 1: And it's changing a bit with trend, and I really
Speaker 1: just say it's a trend that the industry has like
Speaker 1: taken on, you know, activists and people who do have
Speaker 1: an opinion in voice, because social media kind of needs
Speaker 1: you to be more than just a still image. But
Speaker 1: the hard thing and I don't know if this will
Speaker 1: make complete sense, but when I really looked at it
Speaker 1: from all angles, I was being groomed into this industry
Speaker 1: and then I'm used to groom the public, and so
Speaker 1: it's this really messed up cycle. And that's why for me,
Speaker 1: it's not just about modeling, it's about society as a whole,
Speaker 1: because I'm being put into these positions where I feel
Speaker 1: so insecure and so bad about myself. Yet I'm what
Speaker 1: you're supposed to emulate and work your butt off to
Speaker 1: look like, which is coming from sports that I did
Speaker 1: growing up, which is coming from genetics, which is coming
Speaker 1: for other people through surgery. And then you're left to
Speaker 1: feel bad at home because you don't have all these
Speaker 1: things that I apparently have, which I don't really have either.
Speaker 1: You know, I had to. I had to really do
Speaker 1: some serious healing through therapy. I did an eight hundred
Speaker 1: mile hike on the PCT. I traveled the world for
Speaker 1: four years, going to every continent doing humanitarian work. I
Speaker 1: think there was a time when we looked at a
Speaker 1: picture in a magazine we didn't really identify with that.
Speaker 1: You're right, it was just sort of an inert like
Speaker 1: beautiful person sitting next to a car holding a bottle
Speaker 1: of perfume or whatever the heck they were showing us.
Speaker 1: Social media changed the game and made it feel accessible,
Speaker 1: But ultimately it is really we're worshiping on the shrine
Speaker 1: of people who had a little bit of genetic good luck.
Speaker 1: The spacing of their eyes, the shape of their body,
Speaker 1: that their height, those are none of that was things
Speaker 1: that they did and then often do terrible things to
Speaker 1: themselves to keep their weight down at a level that
Speaker 1: especially for women that look at certain I would argue
Speaker 1: man as well, anyone who's putting themselves out there, and
Speaker 1: we look at these people who had sort of won
Speaker 1: a certain genetic roll of the dice, but we never
Speaker 1: get to know them as people. I I can tell
Speaker 1: you that makes me incredibly uncomfortable when I don't know
Speaker 1: the three D like, I'm always the person who's going
Speaker 1: to look at the the you know, the cutout and
Speaker 1: behind here, because that's sort of that's my job is
Speaker 1: looking under the hood, not just as a psychologist, but
Speaker 1: I think for all of us as a human being
Speaker 1: is to look beyond that. But we're not even allowed to.
Speaker 1: I think in many ways that modeling industry is invested
Speaker 1: in us not knowing who these people really are. And
Speaker 1: while I think that sometimes people will come out and say,
Speaker 1: you know, you have people who are very prominent in
Speaker 1: the industry, they're often people who have succeeded or protected
Speaker 1: by celebrity or family legacy. But for the rest of
Speaker 1: the people, we're not hearing about any of this. I'd
Speaker 1: love to ask you. Somebody comes up to you, I
Speaker 1: want to be a model, Barrett, what would you say
Speaker 1: to someone who is sixteen, seventeen, eighteen nineteen and says
Speaker 1: I want to pursue a modeling career. My first question
Speaker 1: with anything, and especially this is why, Okay, that's good.
Speaker 1: Why do you want to be a model? What about
Speaker 1: it is exciting to you? What do you think you're
Speaker 1: going to get from it. Why, Because what we aren't
Speaker 1: really looking at is the truth of the industry. It's
Speaker 1: not super lucrative. It's not easy. I think that's another
Speaker 1: big problem is I even thought this would be an
Speaker 1: easy way to make money. It's not easy. You are
Speaker 1: spending so much of your own time, energy, mental space,
Speaker 1: money running around from casting to casting, the relationships that
Speaker 1: you have to maintain with people that you probably don't
Speaker 1: really want to maintain relationships with. Everyone wants to use you,
Speaker 1: no one really cares about you. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: my thing is, are you looking to do this for
Speaker 1: the reasons that I probably was looking to do this
Speaker 1: as a kid, which was to find a sense of
Speaker 1: making solid money at an age that you really can't
Speaker 1: make a lot of money any other way except an entertainment.
Speaker 1: Now it's changed a lot of guests, But at nineteen,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of opportunities for me to make
Speaker 1: as much money as I was told I could make.
Speaker 1: I was highly insecure, and I thought that coming out
Speaker 1: of high school being awkward and bullied and made fun
Speaker 1: of on a daily basis, if I could have this industry,
Speaker 1: that was the peak of a sex symbol or attractiveness
Speaker 1: that that would validate me finally for all the people
Speaker 1: who were awful to me, but really to myself, because
Speaker 1: I still didn't have that confidence to know that I
Speaker 1: was worthy of everything I want. And we put so
Speaker 1: much emphasis on the exterior as a culture because it's
Speaker 1: a way for capitalism to continue to thrive because it
Speaker 1: has to fade at some point. So is this because
Speaker 1: you're not willing to invest on the hard things which
Speaker 1: are hard quote unquote, you know, the mind and the
Speaker 1: soul and the emotions and the spirit and all that
Speaker 1: deeper stuff that takes a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1: You know, statistically speaking, less people will make it as
Speaker 1: a professional well paid model than they will as a
Speaker 1: professional athlete. Wow, and you work just as hard to
Speaker 1: maintain your body because that is your source of income. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's interesting. That's a that's a really interesting statistics because
Speaker 1: we think of that professional athletics and beings. You know
Speaker 1: that no one makes it in that space, But you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right when you think of all the athletes out
Speaker 1: there playing college sports all of that. We did some
Speaker 1: additional research here and what we found is that in modeling,
Speaker 1: sometimes you do a shoot for free, often trade offs
Speaker 1: with a photographer to boost your portfolio. Models also get
Speaker 1: paid in products that's just clothing. When working with smaller companies,
Speaker 1: the range of pay for models can be as low
Speaker 1: as thirty dollars an hour up to three hundred an hour,
Speaker 1: with most models being paid about thirty to a hundred
Speaker 1: dollars per hour for unpredictable and often infrequent gigs. Also,
Speaker 1: when you sign with an agency, when the agency gets
Speaker 1: you the job, agencies take out around ten so that's
Speaker 1: not an insignificant portion of these often low and inconsistent rates.
Speaker 1: Even when a model scores big and gets a big
Speaker 1: and lucrative job, this can often be a sort of
Speaker 1: unicorn and may not appear again for years, requiring tremendous
Speaker 1: discipline around budgeting and the anxiety that comes from that.
Speaker 1: And of course, on top of all of this, you
Speaker 1: have to pay taxes. Being paid inconsistently makes it difficult
Speaker 1: to do things like budget and pay rent, and the
Speaker 1: misleading nature of what a job pays on what you
Speaker 1: get to keep, especially for people who may not fully
Speaker 1: understand how this works, can put people into some really
Speaker 1: financially precarious positions and often quite vulnerable ones. It's a
Speaker 1: constant hustle, which is why so many models, as Barrett mentioned,
Speaker 1: have second jobs just to have enough to live on. Now,
Speaker 1: I want to pivot into one last space because you
Speaker 1: have spoken out. You have spoken out about a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff, and for purposes of what we talk about here,
Speaker 1: that has resulted in a lot of online bullying. People
Speaker 1: have not I mean, I don't think anybody who has
Speaker 1: an online presence doesn't endure it, I have to say,
Speaker 1: but you have endured a lot of it. What's happening
Speaker 1: in internet spaces? I didn't used to think people were bad.
Speaker 1: When I look at comments, I'm like, I'm beginning to
Speaker 1: think people with capital P are just not nice. What
Speaker 1: has been your experience, because I think you've really taken
Speaker 1: so much of it. What do you think that's about?
Speaker 1: And how do you manage that? I remember the first
Speaker 1: mean comment that I got, which was on my first polaroid,
Speaker 1: which is what we used to take to kind of
Speaker 1: mark your entry into modeling, that you would put up
Speaker 1: on a website quickly or blitz out to all the
Speaker 1: clients that you had at the agency to be like,
Speaker 1: we have this new face I got on there and
Speaker 1: I was like so excited, and underneath were like four
Speaker 1: comments and one was from someone who was like g
Speaker 1: Q something, and I thought it was actually g Q
Speaker 1: in my little young brain and they're like, was probably
Speaker 1: cute in high school? Has baby fat, won't make it
Speaker 1: very far, and I was like, this is what g
Speaker 1: Q thinks of me. But that was the beginning of
Speaker 1: my online bullying. As you go through my career, it
Speaker 1: was pretty welcoming, especially when I came out and social
Speaker 1: media was really starting to grow. I definitely had a
Speaker 1: lot of gay men following me. That was the entry
Speaker 1: point for me into like public space in some way
Speaker 1: I called a gay miss and I went from being
Speaker 1: again people will troll me for this, but the gay
Speaker 1: darling of the modeling industry for about three years and
Speaker 1: the hardest hardest part about this specifically, I had three
Speaker 1: friends go and shoot with that photographer and I was
Speaker 1: gaslight by our larger group of friends that I was
Speaker 1: a problem for saying that that was a problem publicly,
Speaker 1: And to this day I am still vilified in certain
Speaker 1: circles and social spaces because I did not just sit
Speaker 1: and be quiet, and so it's cost me real life
Speaker 1: situations where I don't feel like I'm very safe in
Speaker 1: a lot of spaces, and then you amplify it on
Speaker 1: social media, where I now reach over two million people
Speaker 1: on a daily basis and it's just NonStop every day,
Speaker 1: and it's from straight men, from queer men, from some women,
Speaker 1: but it's mostly men. How do you cope with that? Barrott?
Speaker 1: You don't until you realize that it's affecting you because
Speaker 1: you have this breakdown. And I had one of those,
Speaker 1: and my best friends and my boyfriend at the time
Speaker 1: were like, you need to stop, Like you need to
Speaker 1: to get away from all of this for a little bit.
Speaker 1: Because social media is something everyone has and so you
Speaker 1: see everyone using it, but it's a career for you,
Speaker 1: so it's very different the way in which you have
Speaker 1: to interact with it, because if you don't post for
Speaker 1: a few days, it affects your account. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: psychological warfare with these tech companies. And I finally had
Speaker 1: this moment where I was like, Okay, I need to
Speaker 1: really reassess how much time I'm giving to these things,
Speaker 1: what it's doing to me, and create boundaries that I
Speaker 1: had not had because no one had shown me how
Speaker 1: to have them because I was a part of the
Speaker 1: guinea pig with social media, with this new wave of
Speaker 1: things that we have. I mean, technology was part of
Speaker 1: what I studied in school. I went to school for communication, culture, media,
Speaker 1: but none of this existed when I was in college.
Speaker 1: You know, it didn't. I have to say, you know
Speaker 1: that the the advice is to ever read the comments
Speaker 1: is sort of what's going to be on my tombstone
Speaker 1: because I'm not I'm not made for this. The vilification
Speaker 1: and what I experienced is a tenth of a percent
Speaker 1: compared to what you would endure. And I find it
Speaker 1: as somebody who's even older and you know, different life story,
Speaker 1: different life path harms my mental health. So I I'm
Speaker 1: always struck by how people can be resilient in the
Speaker 1: face of it, and I think at some level you
Speaker 1: really can't. At some point you have to shut it down.
Speaker 1: But you're very engaged with your audiences, which is sort
Speaker 1: of where I want to sort of end this up,
Speaker 1: is you've really had quite a journey and would love
Speaker 1: to hear what you're doing now because all of this
Speaker 1: did not break you. In fact, it allowed you to
Speaker 1: finally bring your voice out into the world as your
Speaker 1: voice and you are focused on goodness and kindness. And
Speaker 1: you know, listen, I'm a big believer that just because
Speaker 1: somebody wants to be a public person, that doesn't make
Speaker 1: them an open target, which actually is the mentality of
Speaker 1: the world. If you're a public person, then this is
Speaker 1: what you signed up for. I said, what people So
Speaker 1: people want to do something, say something publicly, and that
Speaker 1: gives the population the right to use them as the
Speaker 1: public square that you hurled the to it is that
Speaker 1: I don't I really don't agree with that. And what
Speaker 1: I do think is it's created an antagonism in society
Speaker 1: at large, which is actually hurting everybody's health at this point,
Speaker 1: not just individuals were enduring the vilification. Everyone is health.
Speaker 1: Health is going down the drain at this point. So,
Speaker 1: but on a brighter note, you know, we want to
Speaker 1: support to you, So tell us what you're doing now
Speaker 1: and how you're you sort of come out of this
Speaker 1: and what your sort of mission is. Yeah, So through
Speaker 1: all of this and really reassessing where I can make
Speaker 1: change and finding my voice and being confident in that.
Speaker 1: For the last eight years, I've been a professional life
Speaker 1: coach that specializes in behavioral change to help people find
Speaker 1: peace of mind, because that's the goal I think for
Speaker 1: the world is what we need to find. I truly
Speaker 1: want everyone to be on the same team. I don't
Speaker 1: believe in winners and losers. I think we're all losing
Speaker 1: right now. The idea that there's winners and losers comes
Speaker 1: from a very patriarchal, competitive society that does not see
Speaker 1: everyone thriving, and even the people at the top, I
Speaker 1: believe are very hurt and unhappy, regardless of how much
Speaker 1: money they may flash around. I have been become a
Speaker 1: partner with the u N and I'm really grateful for that.
Speaker 1: I do humanitarian work. I am a part of a
Speaker 1: group called the Models Alliance, and then my big goal
Speaker 1: is to kind of do what Glorious Steynham famously said
Speaker 1: and when a para paraphrase er here, but it's the
Speaker 1: final stage of healing is taking what's happened to you
Speaker 1: and helping others heal. I want to leave this planet
Speaker 1: better than how I came into it. I want to
Speaker 1: make people realize that maybe if they didn't like me
Speaker 1: because of something here or there, that I'm on their team.
Speaker 1: We do better working together. And I think that as
Speaker 1: you and I were talking earlier today. Is you know,
Speaker 1: empathy is what's lacking more than anything. It's so easy
Speaker 1: to feel like you are being specifically personally attacked when
Speaker 1: someone on social media says something that maybe does resonate
Speaker 1: to somewhere where you need to make change. But I
Speaker 1: want to encourage people to make change. It's a good
Speaker 1: thing to grow and evolve, and no one should say
Speaker 1: stagnant from where they are today. I mean, we live
Speaker 1: very long lives now, and if we can all kind
Speaker 1: of unite a little bit more, I think we can
Speaker 1: all have equity to equality and see everyone thrived because
Speaker 1: there's enough resources in terms of everything from food to
Speaker 1: water to land for everyone to be fundamentally okay at
Speaker 1: the end of the day. As long as we split
Speaker 1: it up, the right wakes. Right now, a very small
Speaker 1: number of people hold most of the world's resources. So
Speaker 1: how can people support your work? You can find me
Speaker 1: and support my work on all social media platforms. That's YouTube, TikTok, Instagram.
Speaker 1: I've deleted Twitter. That's a whole other conversation, um, but
Speaker 1: it's at my name. Barrett, Paul B A R R
Speaker 1: E T T. Paul P A. L. L that's it
Speaker 1: nice and easy, and I look forward to having you
Speaker 1: join us in what I call lovingly the Love Army.
Speaker 1: It's a community of people that just want to come
Speaker 1: together and make the world better. Yeah. Again, I completely
Speaker 1: agree with the glorious Steinham quote, and I always tell
Speaker 1: all survivors that at some point you will pay this forward.
Speaker 1: Do you? First you know if your whole, if you've
Speaker 1: subjugated yourself to what others needed, and then once you
Speaker 1: do that, you know to pay it forward. Can actually,
Speaker 1: in essence give meaning to the to the pain and
Speaker 1: the struggle and the wounds, and which I think is
Speaker 1: absolutely essential. Very few people live a life without suffering.
Speaker 1: The question is what we do with that suffering. And
Speaker 1: you have had a fascinating and painful though above all else,
Speaker 1: you've had a painful journey through an industry that I
Speaker 1: will tell you after our conversation today, you've illuminated in ways.
Speaker 1: I mean, I never viewed beneficently on the modeling industry,
Speaker 1: but interestingly my problem with it was more superficial. What
Speaker 1: you've described is an industry that can be predatory and
Speaker 1: take advantage of people who are often quite vulnerable, and
Speaker 1: that's a real problem. I mean, it's one thing that yeah,
Speaker 1: I can, I can have my own philosophies that I
Speaker 1: think we really have to. I want all people to
Speaker 1: be able to go deep into themselves. This is a
Speaker 1: whole different game, and that I think that it's a
Speaker 1: cautionary tale and a reminder that entire industries can be
Speaker 1: antagonistic and invalidating and cruel, and we don't always get
Speaker 1: the whole story because what as we see, with all
Speaker 1: of these toxic relationships, we believe what we want to
Speaker 1: believe to maintain the fantasies we right in our mind.
Speaker 1: So thank you for dispelling some of those fantasies and
Speaker 1: putting the hope in a different place. I really appreciate you, Barrett.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having
Speaker 1: me and for giving me more insight into my own journey.
Speaker 1: It's been really important for me. But I hope everyone
Speaker 1: who hears this, so thank you. Yeah, thank you. These
Speaker 1: are my takeaways from my conversation with Barrett. In my
Speaker 1: first takeaway, any time we have to occupy a toxic
Speaker 1: space in our lives, whether it is a relationship, social group,
Speaker 1: or workplace, we pawn off a piece of our authenticity.
Speaker 1: These relationships mean pushing down our intuition, silencing ourselves, or
Speaker 1: being in constant arguments and making ourselves smaller to survive.
Speaker 1: Most of us cannot depart every toxic relationship in our lives,
Speaker 1: particularly if it is a workplace. Finding spaces outside of
Speaker 1: these unhealthy ones, whether it is friendships, activities that bring
Speaker 1: meaning and purpose, other healthy relationships are essential to not
Speaker 1: losing ourselves entirely in this next takeaway, industries which are
Speaker 1: perceived to have high status and it is restrictive and
Speaker 1: competitive to enter the industry, and are also perceived to
Speaker 1: pay well, whether or not that's true, are sadly a
Speaker 1: set up for abuse, exploitation, and manipulation. Modeling is a
Speaker 1: unique industry because the people who are entering the industry
Speaker 1: are often very young and often may not feel that
Speaker 1: they have a voice or know that there are many
Speaker 1: others who could take their place if they push back.
Speaker 1: Workplace reforms can often be essential in these industries, whether
Speaker 1: that is organizing workers, ensuring transparency and compensation, clearer guidelines
Speaker 1: and consequences. However, as long as an industry is perceived
Speaker 1: as desirable and fantastical, like modeling or entertainment. Even with
Speaker 1: these guidelines, these will often be fraught and toxic workspaces.
Speaker 1: In our next takeaway, protecting people within toxic industries is essential.
Speaker 1: That may be through mentorship, watchdog systems, or oversight. At
Speaker 1: a minimum, there is a need for people to be
Speaker 1: aware of the potential for harm that industries with major
Speaker 1: power differentials, small windows of opportunity to launch, and fears
Speaker 1: of reprisal if someone pushes back. There is a risk
Speaker 1: when a person is as commodified as a model, for example,
Speaker 1: of also perceiving them as a disposable, a dynamic that
Speaker 1: actually characterizes narcissistic relationships as well. Sometimes it takes just
Speaker 1: one person with a voice who is observing a toxic
Speaker 1: dynamic to protect someone in any toxic system. And in
Speaker 1: my last takeaway, someday in the mental health and psychology
Speaker 1: history books, we will see the last decade or so
Speaker 1: as the era when the trauma called online bullying became
Speaker 1: a thing and something that undercut not only mental health,
Speaker 1: but civil discourse of any kind. There is research that
Speaker 1: suggests that the harm induced by the unrelenting nature of
Speaker 1: online bullying, the seven nature of it, that it can
Speaker 1: be anonymous, that it can be shared widely that this
Speaker 1: form of bullying may be worse than other forms. Barrett
Speaker 1: is not the only guest who has talked about this,
Speaker 1: and as often happens when we are talking about toxic
Speaker 1: behavior or people, we tend to blame the person experiencing
Speaker 1: the abuse, things like maybe you shouldn't be a public person.
Speaker 1: You were asking for it if you posted things for
Speaker 1: people to see. Rather than calling out the antagonistic people
Speaker 1: who are emboldened by cowardly anonymity, we won't stop this.
Speaker 1: Online spaces gave a more covert group of people with
Speaker 1: antagonistic personalities a modern public square in which they can
Speaker 1: behave badly. Some people develop a tough skin and believe
Speaker 1: in the message they are sharing, while others are quite
Speaker 1: harmed by this. Only you would know how this would
Speaker 1: affect you. Oftentimes this may mean trimming your feed and followers,
Speaker 1: disabling comments, not reading the comments, and giving yourself a
Speaker 1: break from the toxic town square that the Internet has become.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith,
Speaker 1: Valen Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton, and Dr Romeney de Vassela. And
Speaker 1: thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria
Speaker 1: Della Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you
Speaker 1: to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe and Calvin Bailiff.