WEBVTT - Unpacking Pain - Lab 110 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:09.920 I'm TT and I'm Zachiah, and this is Dope Labs. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.600 Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.639 science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.200 We started talking about the brain last week in our 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:27.720 grab bag, but that was really just a preview, just 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.760 a little snippet. That's right, realizing how important the brain 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.000 is and how much we need sleep and all the 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.080 things that's beneficial for down to bone growth for kids 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.720 and metabolism for adults. Okay, that's right, Because y'all were 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.960 talking about doing the Great lock in and we said, 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.040 you need to do the Great lay down. Okay, and 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.200 it's time to make a little commotion for the brain. 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.480 Neuroscience is who we thought rocket science was. You know 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.200 how people say, right, it's not rocket science. Neuroscience actually 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.800 is that gru Okay, that's where the complexity lies. We 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.200 were looking outside when we needed to turn inside, turn 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.959 this body inside out and take a look into the brain. 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:13.279 So this episode, we're looking at the neuroscience of pain, 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:18.880 and we have the perfect guest expert to do just that. 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.000 All right, TT, let's jump into the recitation. What do 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.080 we want to know? I want to know stuff like 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.319 how is neuroscience at work in our everyday lives? What 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.399 is the mechanism of pain? Like how do you go 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:38.720 from incident to ouch? What is going on in my cranium? Yes, 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.440 and then I want to know more about like the 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.600 memories and stuff tied into pain, because there's a lot 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.319 of conversation on my timline right now about this. You 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:49.200 know that book The Body keeps the Score. Yes, people 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.680 are saying it's not right or it's trash. Now that's 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.240 what Atlanta told me. Really, Atlanta told me the body 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.160 does not keep the score. She was like, that's why 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:01.200 you don't remember giving birth to that baby. Oh see, 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:02.960 I haven't read the full thing. I don't know all 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.800 the commentary. Has anybody else heard this? And even if 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.200 what's going on there is different from what we're talking about, 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.360 does the body keep the score in regards to pain 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.160 in some kind of way? Does the brain keep the score? Then? Right, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.480 and then there's a cute versix chronic pain, And these 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.959 are different pathways in my mind. They are like different experiences. 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:26.280 But my mind has been wrong a time or two. Okay, 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:28.880 I've only seen it once. I've only seen it wrong once, 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.680 and I Also, you know, I'm on the woo woop 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:34.880 party the Internet, and so I want to know about 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.080 some of the wellness advice around pain, like mindfulness, cold plunges, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.280 breath work. Do those actually change how we experience pain? 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.560 Or is that Gwyneth Paltrow goop stuff. No shade to 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.560 her as an actress, because I liked her in Shakespeare 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.920 in Love, Iron Man, and you know I liked her 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.160 in Contagent. But I have not forgotten about that lawsuit 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.640 where she was advertising those jade eggs saying it was 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.240 balancing hormones and regulating mistro cycles. And it wasn't. Yeah, Gwyneth, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.920 that was right, It wasn't. But to answer all of 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:07.919 these questions, we have the perfect guest expert. So I'm 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.839 going to let them introduce themselves and let them tell 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.600 us how they got into the neuroscience of pain. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:19.400 My name's Lindsay Edgoe. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.360 I'm a neuroscience patry candidate at the University of Pennsylvania, 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.800 and I am really interested in the neuro circuits that 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.280 underlie pain. It's interesting because I get this question a lot, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.800 like what got you interested in pain neuroscience? And the 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.600 answer is it was honestly random, because when I was 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.360 an undergraduate, I was looking. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.800 For research labs to join and get more experience doing research. 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.920 So I was looking through Pitt's website and I saw 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.680 this lab that studied something called optogenetics, which is pretty 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.520 much a way to use light to change the activity 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.080 of brain cells. And I thought that was so cool 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.320 that I immediately, you know, the professor saying I wanted 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.920 to work with him, and he said, okay, that's great. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.320 I study pain, so I study. 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.040 Optientemics in the context of pain relief. So that's why 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.120 I ended up in the pain field. And then from 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.120 there my interest just grew and grew and grew, and 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:14.000 I just stuck with. 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:15.320 It and planned to in the future too. 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.680 There's neuroscience and basically so many parts of our everyday life, 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.880 and I'd love for you to share anything that you 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.760 feel like people don't commonly think of. And you're like, oh, 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:26.760 neuroscience at play in action. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.120 Yeah, you're right, it is at play all the time. 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.760 I mean, our brains generate the conscious experience we live 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.039 every day. I mean, thinking about where you are right now, 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.680 even as one of the listeners, you're probably either walking 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.320 down the street or sitting on a train during your commute. 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.200 Think about the ground under your feet, the feeling of 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.440 the chair under your legs, how your body feels in space. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.400 Are you in any pain, do you have any aches 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.400 or sore spots right now? 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:55.840 Going on? 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:57.760 What do you see in front of you. 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.240 There's all of this visual information being fed to your 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:06.279 brain every second, and you're honestly dealing with so much, 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.960 like general sensory information in general, from all your sensings 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:10.679 at all times. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:11.640 It's amazing. 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.400 I think about this all the time, but it's amazing 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.960 how the brain can even reconcile this all at once 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.119 because so much that's happening to us at all times. 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.719 But we also have to like put most of it 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.160 in the back of our heads and kind of just 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.200 treat it as background as we do whatever task we're doing, 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.880 like listening to the podcast, processing the words that you're 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.320 listening to right now, whatever you might be doing right 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.640 It's like the brain is constantly active and constantly doing 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:34.960 this thing. 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:39.960 So everything is neuroscience. Like our entire existence, everything that 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:45.680 we do, feel, experience all relates to neuroscience because our 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.760 brains are part of those interactions all the time. What 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:54.640 a huge topic. Yes, exact now we know it's a 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.680 neuroscience plays a role in every aspect of our lives. 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.120 But we want to focus on and pain, which is 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.320 your specific research. Well, I know pain is a part 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.640 of everyone's life, Like we experienced some type of pain 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.960 in some type of way at any given moment during 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.720 our days. When we think about pain, it's usually like 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.279 physical damage, like where you can see the damage on 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.760 your body. My son actually hit me in the eye accidentally. 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.960 He's not abusing me. I was in so much pain 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.599 and you could see it. My eye was like red 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.680 and swollen and it really really hurt, really bad. But 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.680 what about the experience of pain in the brain? What 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.360 is going on? How we go from like incident to ouch, 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.880 and like what happens in between those moments in your brain. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.400 So not to rub it in your face, but let's 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.240 use your eye be hurt as an example here. Okay, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.640 the first thing that happened when he hits your eye 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.119 was you probably closed it immediately. This is like your 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.320 reflex response. So this really quick signal gets sent to 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.320 your cord and it tells your muscles clutsure eye. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:03.200 Somebody's going on. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.880 And then very very very soon after you start feeling it, 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.520 so that information travels from the nerves in your eye 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.920 to the spinal cord and then travels from the spinal 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.360 cord up to your brain, up to the airs that 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.520 are going to process how you're feeling. Not only the 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.800 quote unquote sensation of it, which is how much it hurts, 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.360 how it feels, was it sharp, was it dull? Where 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.320 is that even located, but also all the other aspects 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:34.640 of pain, like bringing it to your conscious attention. So 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.960 pain hurts, pain is annoying. I know you were not 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.920 happy when your eye got hurt. It not only tells 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:45.640 you what hurts, but also affects your emotions. It's like 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.360 the quote unquote suffering associated with that physical sensation, and 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.200 it overlaps with all these different circuits in your brain 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:56.120 that process emotion and mood. So it's this very complex 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:01.080 experience that involves things like emotion and attention, and you 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.840 might think about it later to so memory, the memory 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.040 of that too gets encoded. So it's this huge, very 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:12.280 complex process that starts with something interacting with your eye 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.679 and ending with this pretty complex experience that you will 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:18.360 remember afterwards. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.800 Right right, Lindsay I love how you broke that down 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.400 because I feel like pain is this thing we do 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.960 not have a good grasp on. We have so many advances, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.559 so much technology, so many things we know, and pain 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.240 feels like this hard thing for us to wrap our 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.440 arms around. And I don't hear people talk about the 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.240 emotional aspect of pain. But two or three episodes ago, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.800 we talked to doctor Jessica Bodie, who's also at the 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.880 University of Pennsylvania at the School of Medicine, and doctor 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.240 Bodie talked about are iFIT, which is the eating disorder 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.520 where you have like restrictive eating, and she talked about 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.600 how people who have early pain from like gastrointestinal problems 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.760 or diet jest of issues, it makes them hesitant to 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.080 try new foods and do different things because of the 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.679 memory of that pain. And it also made me think 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:09.840 about something that I haven't talked about a lot. I 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.480 am technically on vacation right but I'm doing a lot 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:17.880 of physical activity now. I had about of sciatica a 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.160 long time ago, and I have been so nervous to 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:26.199 retrigger that shooting pain, and it makes me walk gingerly 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.800 when I'm doing different it makes me change my whole everything, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.240 and even when I think about what I couldn't do 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.760 and how I felt when I was going through this, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.840 and it was almost like a depression in addition to 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.040 the physical ailment. Are we starting to understand more about 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.280 like what are you learning in your lab about the 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.000 emotional ties to pain? 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.080 Yeah, for sure, So before we even talk about that, Like, 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.080 there's what you mentioned having sciatica. There's a difference between 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.800 this everyday pain that you might feel from stubbing your 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.600 toe or touching on hot stove and this long term 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.960 chronic form of pain that can happen from nerve injuries 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.400 like psiatica, and that chronic pain largely uses different brain 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:11.560 circuits than that acute type of pain, and it's also 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.280 tightened with the emotional stuff and you form that memory 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.200 over time too. So for example, my dad also had 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.679 zyetica and he was very unhappy. And a lot of 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.080 people who have chronic pain also co present with disorders 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.640 like depression and anxiety, And it sucks because then anxiety 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.640 and stress also interact with pain circuits to make pain 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.240 feel even worse. So the stress from feeling pain can 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:40.520 also increase your pain perception and it's like this destructive cycle. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.240 And if you think about it, evolutionarily, an animal would 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.800 want to feel bad after feeling pain because the goal 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:50.319 is to avoid physical. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.280 Harm so that you can continue your species. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.880 But it's like that way out of order where you 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.040 feel bad and you feel worse, and you feel worse 0:10:58.080 --> 0:10:59.959 and you feel worse, and it's kind of hard sometimes 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:01.920 to break out of it. That's why a lot of 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.200 people find that their chronic pain disorders get better after 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.800 getting things like cognitive behavioral therapy or something called pain 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.760 repressing therapy, which separates the feeling of pain from the 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.040 fear of it and that anxiety that comes with it. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.720 Oh my gosh, that's deep. That is very very deep. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.199 I mean you're talking about different areas of your brain 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.840 that are active during different types of pain. What is 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.080 the difference in the brain signal, So like I get 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:32.720 hit in the eye, I stubb my toe, I get 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.080 a paper cut, I burn my hand, versus I have 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.480 this injury from a car accident that is really causing 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.839 me a lot of pain. The signals that your brain 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.120 is sending, or the areas of your brain that are 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:48.480 being activated, what are those different areas and why is 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.160 that the response for those different types of pain. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.120 So the answer is like pretty complicated because it. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:55.360 Changes in every area. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:57.760 So there are areas that are involved in both the 0:11:57.920 --> 0:11:59.640 short term as we call it a cute pain and 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:03.080 that low long term chronic pain. And then for example, 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.360 I study in an area called the thalmis, and the 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.800 thalamus is involved in both acute and chronic pain. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.920 And then also quote unquote emotional. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.480 Part of the physical pain is processed like in the 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.839 middle of the thalmis, and then that sensation is on 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.240 the outside of the thelmis or the edges of it. 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.680 So it's like a cute and chronic pain kind of 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.880 overlap too sometimes and then also don't overlap in other 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:26.520 brain areas, so it kind of just depends on the 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.480 area you're talking about. So then the question of why 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.280 would this happen, Well, one is that chronic pain doesn't 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:33.600 start chronic, It starts acute. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.240 So it's a transition. So it starts off in certain 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:36.840 areas and then. 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.240 It kind of like these brain patterns and these networks shift. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.120 It's called like synaps of plasticity. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:44.840 This I don't call it learning, but it's this changing 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.319 the brain changes the way it's wired to kind of 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.480 accommodate this new state in which you are in pain 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.199 almost constantly, and that looks different just as a result, 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:56.160 like I said earlier, because of all these things that 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.439 the pain is doing to affect the other brain processes 0:12:58.440 --> 0:12:58.839 as well. 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.880 So it's very complicated and it's different in every person. 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:03.840 So it would be really easy if you could just 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.720 target a particular brain area right and be like, Okay, 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.240 this is gonna look exactly like this one is a cute, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.559 and exactly like that one is chronic. But it sometimes 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.920 differs between people, so it's not as easy as to treat. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.840 Even our perceptions of pain is different from person to person, 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.880 so what is very painful for one person might not 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.200 be as painful. I think about when folks be like, oh, yeah, 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.400 I'm tenderheaded, like when they get braids done and stuff, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.160 and to me, like when I'm getting braids done and 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.800 they're doing it really tight, it feels very nice to me, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.480 Like I don't know why. Like the play, I'm like, ooh, 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.000 that feels nice. Like certain parts of my head, I'm like, oh, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.440 I wish you could undo this braid, redo it, because 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.079 I don't know what it is about it, But that 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.480 makes sense. People are experiencing pain in different ways. Is 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.640 that something that is geneicic or is it something that 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.640 you know it's just I'm lucky that I'm not tender. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:15.920 I think it's a mixture of both. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.040 Zakia was talking about certain pains that you feel can 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.280 change the way you experience pain in the future. So 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.840 maybe when you were a kid, you just remember how 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.120 much it used to hurt, and like now you hate 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.160 it and it feels even worse to you now. But 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.160 sometimes it could just be genetic, like you just have 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.520 a different pain tong th to somebody else, So it 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:36.360 differs in that way. But the other thing I want 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.440 to say too is pain doesn't always feel bad. I mean, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.800 think about situations where you are in physical pain, but 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.360 you like it, like a really deep tissue massage exactly. Yes, 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.120 So that reminded me of that where like they're pulling 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:49.640 like a scalp. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.400 I cannot relate to that feeling, but I do know 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.480 what it's like to get DeepC massage and be. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.680 Like, oh, this hurts so good. So a lot of 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:03.240 these tools like mindfulness. Earlier I was talking about therapy, 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.960 like cognitive behavioral therapy, even things like hypnosis. I'm not 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:09.760 going to tell you they don't work, because for some 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.160 people they work a lot, but I will say they're 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.120 not what we would consider a cure because they don't work. 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:17.520 On everybody and they don't work every time. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.560 Okay, so these techniques might not work on everybody, but 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.800 for the people that they do work on or the 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.720 people they work for, how sway, how does it work? 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.040 How are they turned down the pain dial? 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.240 Something we study in our lab two is really big 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.440 part of my PhD project is the natural opioid system. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.800 So you might have heard of opioids drugs like morphine 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.640 or fentanyl even or heroin. Your brain makes its own opioids, 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.200 natural ones. A good example you might know is endorphins 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.120 that get released, you know, after exercise. Those are actually 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:52.360 natural opiend molecules that can relieve pain. So there's this huge, 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.680 growing field of literature where people are studying how natural 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:01.080 opioids and other natural chemicals can help cause pain relief 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.960 without any drugs, and how those are released during things 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.080 like hypnosis or mindfulness and other things like that. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.920 So there's definitely a basis to it, and. 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.520 I think the ultimate goal is to kind of quote 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:17.240 unquote hack that natural opioid system. Because opioid drugs have 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.080 harmful side effects. They can block your muscle movement, including 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.400 the muscles that help you breathe or which can be fatal. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:28.680 They can be highly addictive. But these natural opioids are 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:32.040 released in very tiny amounts in very specific parts of 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.560 the brain in a way that gives you that pain 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.040 relief without this dependence or any of these negative side 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.520 effects by like bathing the whole body in opioids like 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:43.680 you would when you take a drug. 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.440 Okay, so now I really want to zoom into your 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:53.800 specific research. What questions are you trying to answer with 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.920 your PhD work and how are you studying that and 0:16:58.360 --> 0:16:59.760 what has surprised you so far. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.680 The first question that I tried to answer was based 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.160 on this natural pain relieving process. And something I didn't 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.120 mention is another time that these natural opiids get released 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:15.760 is during placebo, during what we call this expectation of 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.199 pain relief, just the expectation that something will relieve your 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.439 pain can be enough to relieve your pain because of 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.400 the release of these natural opious So what we did 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.520 in our lab was we use this model where we 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.199 basically taught animals to relieve their own pain, kind of 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.280 trick them into doing it, because you know, you can't. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.560 Just be like, relieve your pain, it's a mouse. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.359 So what we did was we would put them into 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.200 two different chambers and be like, in this chamber, you're 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:46.320 gonna feel pain from like a warm plate that's under them. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.760 Not too hot that they burn their skin or anything 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.840 like that, but definitely uncomfortable, something that they don't want 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.440 to be in. So you put them in one chamber 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.560 and say this chamber is associated with pain and the 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.240 other one is not. Every day you put them in 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.800 the pain chamber and they are able to freely run 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.080 into the one that's safe, and they learned that when 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.959 they make this action into this quote unquote safe chamber, 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.960 their pain is going to be relieved. Afterwards, we make 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.000 that safe chamber unsafe again. So they've run into the 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.879 other chamber, and you would expect them to realize that 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:24.040 it's hot and start exhibiting behaviors that show that they're 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:24.520 in pain. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:26.600 But instead we saw that the. 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.920 Animals would run into the other chamber and even though 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.520 they're still on a hot plate, they would be sitting there. 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:32.440 Wow, chilling. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.200 They weren't even they weren't even moving much. They weren't 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.840 like in any kind of distress. It wouldn't last very long. 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:42.040 We'd be around ninety seconds. But in that time, yeah, honestly, 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:46.560 it is long. In that time, they would mostly be still, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.240 maybe a little bit of grooming, and then you would 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.440 see them be like, oh wait, it would wear off 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.720 a little bit. They'd start walking around and then they'd 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.760 be like, oh no. They run to the other side. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:18:59.600 They realize, oh wait, nothing's safe, and by then the 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:00.840 tests almost over. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:01.600 So we just put them out. 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.760 But it's this process of that expectation, just the expectation 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:08.359 that it's going to be safe. There is enough for 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:12.120 even a mouse to quote unquote like relieve its own pain. 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.960 So then what we do in the lab is we 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.159 have different brain areas that we know are involved in 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.280 pain relief and this natural opiod release. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.400 So what we're doing is tracking the activity of. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.960 Cells that are involved in pain relief during this process 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.520 and then also measuring the actual opioids that get released 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.640 and just seeing how can we further understand this process. 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.000 This model was just created in the past few years, 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.480 and we really haven't had a good one since then, 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:39.840 and we didn't really have a good one before then, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.520 so still early stages. But it's really cool because we 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.440 get to really investigate these brains because of how they 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.280 change in this process, so that we can work towards 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.360 building tools to harness what we've. 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.680 Learned and replicating in a way. 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.760 That's safe for people, well, first mice and then people 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:58.920 who live with chronic pain. 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.200 I can draw so many parallels, which I know, lindsay, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.480 you may say not scientific, don't do as a kid, 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.680 but I was just thinking when you were talking about this, 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.439 about this model of like expectation of pain relief, and 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.480 we learned this from being children. You know, you get 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.359 a boo boo and a parent comforts you and they like, 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.520 let me kiss it is gonna make it feel better. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.600 You think it feels better. They didn't do anything, you know, 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.600 but it's just the expectation that it feels better. All 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:40.640 they're doing is spreading those germs around. 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:40.800 And. 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.199 I disinfected, right. I think about that, and then I 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.560 think about this as an adult. And I'm extrapolating a 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.479 little bit, quite a bit, but I'm thinking about what 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.320 it means to move through a world that may feel unsafe, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.200 but to have community that does feel safe, Like when 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:00.760 I know I'm gonna be with my friends, I have 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.880 the expectation of pain relief, and I'm already feeling good 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.639 expecting that. So even if things are unbearable, they're a 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.719 little less unbearable, right, Like it feels a little bit 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.320 more tolerable, even for ninety seconds, Like the animals and 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.600 the experiment like the same thing, And I think there's 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.280