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Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zachiah, and this is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore

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Speaker 1: science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.

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Speaker 1: We started talking about the brain last week in our

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Speaker 1: grab bag, but that was really just a preview, just

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Speaker 1: a little snippet. That's right, realizing how important the brain

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Speaker 1: is and how much we need sleep and all the

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Speaker 1: things that's beneficial for down to bone growth for kids

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Speaker 1: and metabolism for adults. Okay, that's right, Because y'all were

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Speaker 1: talking about doing the Great lock in and we said,

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Speaker 1: you need to do the Great lay down. Okay, and

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Speaker 1: it's time to make a little commotion for the brain.

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Speaker 1: Neuroscience is who we thought rocket science was. You know

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Speaker 1: how people say, right, it's not rocket science. Neuroscience actually

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Speaker 1: is that gru Okay, that's where the complexity lies. We

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Speaker 1: were looking outside when we needed to turn inside, turn

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Speaker 1: this body inside out and take a look into the brain.

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Speaker 1: So this episode, we're looking at the neuroscience of pain,

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Speaker 1: and we have the perfect guest expert to do just that.

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Speaker 1: All right, TT, let's jump into the recitation. What do

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Speaker 1: we want to know? I want to know stuff like

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Speaker 1: how is neuroscience at work in our everyday lives? What

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Speaker 1: is the mechanism of pain? Like how do you go

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Speaker 1: from incident to ouch? What is going on in my cranium? Yes,

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Speaker 1: and then I want to know more about like the

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Speaker 1: memories and stuff tied into pain, because there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of conversation on my timline right now about this. You

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Speaker 1: know that book The Body keeps the Score. Yes, people

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Speaker 1: are saying it's not right or it's trash. Now that's

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Speaker 1: what Atlanta told me. Really, Atlanta told me the body

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Speaker 1: does not keep the score. She was like, that's why

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Speaker 1: you don't remember giving birth to that baby. Oh see,

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Speaker 1: I haven't read the full thing. I don't know all

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Speaker 1: the commentary. Has anybody else heard this? And even if

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Speaker 1: what's going on there is different from what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: does the body keep the score in regards to pain

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Speaker 1: in some kind of way? Does the brain keep the score? Then? Right,

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Speaker 1: and then there's a cute versix chronic pain, And these

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Speaker 1: are different pathways in my mind. They are like different experiences.

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Speaker 1: But my mind has been wrong a time or two. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I've only seen it once. I've only seen it wrong once,

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Speaker 1: and I Also, you know, I'm on the woo woop

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Speaker 1: party the Internet, and so I want to know about

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Speaker 1: some of the wellness advice around pain, like mindfulness, cold plunges,

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Speaker 1: breath work. Do those actually change how we experience pain?

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Speaker 1: Or is that Gwyneth Paltrow goop stuff. No shade to

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Speaker 1: her as an actress, because I liked her in Shakespeare

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Speaker 1: in Love, Iron Man, and you know I liked her

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Speaker 1: in Contagent. But I have not forgotten about that lawsuit

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Speaker 1: where she was advertising those jade eggs saying it was

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Speaker 1: balancing hormones and regulating mistro cycles. And it wasn't. Yeah, Gwyneth,

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Speaker 1: that was right, It wasn't. But to answer all of

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Speaker 1: these questions, we have the perfect guest expert. So I'm

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Speaker 1: going to let them introduce themselves and let them tell

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Speaker 1: us how they got into the neuroscience of pain.

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Speaker 2: My name's Lindsay Edgoe.

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Speaker 3: I'm a neuroscience patry candidate at the University of Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 3: and I am really interested in the neuro circuits that

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Speaker 3: underlie pain. It's interesting because I get this question a lot,

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Speaker 3: like what got you interested in pain neuroscience? And the

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Speaker 3: answer is it was honestly random, because when I was

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Speaker 3: an undergraduate, I was looking.

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Speaker 2: For research labs to join and get more experience doing research.

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Speaker 3: So I was looking through Pitt's website and I saw

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Speaker 3: this lab that studied something called optogenetics, which is pretty

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Speaker 3: much a way to use light to change the activity

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Speaker 3: of brain cells. And I thought that was so cool

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Speaker 3: that I immediately, you know, the professor saying I wanted

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Speaker 3: to work with him, and he said, okay, that's great.

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Speaker 2: I study pain, so I study.

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Speaker 3: Optientemics in the context of pain relief. So that's why

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Speaker 3: I ended up in the pain field. And then from

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Speaker 3: there my interest just grew and grew and grew, and

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Speaker 3: I just stuck with.

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Speaker 2: It and planned to in the future too.

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Speaker 1: There's neuroscience and basically so many parts of our everyday life,

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Speaker 1: and I'd love for you to share anything that you

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Speaker 1: feel like people don't commonly think of. And you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: neuroscience at play in action.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, it is at play all the time.

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Speaker 3: I mean, our brains generate the conscious experience we live

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Speaker 3: every day. I mean, thinking about where you are right now,

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Speaker 3: even as one of the listeners, you're probably either walking

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Speaker 3: down the street or sitting on a train during your commute.

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Speaker 3: Think about the ground under your feet, the feeling of

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Speaker 3: the chair under your legs, how your body feels in space.

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Speaker 3: Are you in any pain, do you have any aches

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Speaker 3: or sore spots right now?

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Speaker 1: Going on?

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Speaker 2: What do you see in front of you.

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Speaker 3: There's all of this visual information being fed to your

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Speaker 3: brain every second, and you're honestly dealing with so much,

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Speaker 3: like general sensory information in general, from all your sensings

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Speaker 3: at all times.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I think about this all the time, but it's amazing

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Speaker 3: how the brain can even reconcile this all at once

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Speaker 3: because so much that's happening to us at all times.

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Speaker 3: But we also have to like put most of it

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Speaker 3: in the back of our heads and kind of just

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Speaker 3: treat it as background as we do whatever task we're doing,

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Speaker 3: like listening to the podcast, processing the words that you're

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Speaker 3: listening to right now, whatever you might be doing right

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Speaker 3: It's like the brain is constantly active and constantly doing

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Speaker 3: this thing.

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Speaker 1: So everything is neuroscience. Like our entire existence, everything that

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Speaker 1: we do, feel, experience all relates to neuroscience because our

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Speaker 1: brains are part of those interactions all the time. What

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Speaker 1: a huge topic. Yes, exact now we know it's a

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Speaker 1: neuroscience plays a role in every aspect of our lives.

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Speaker 1: But we want to focus on and pain, which is

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Speaker 1: your specific research. Well, I know pain is a part

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Speaker 1: of everyone's life, Like we experienced some type of pain

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Speaker 1: in some type of way at any given moment during

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Speaker 1: our days. When we think about pain, it's usually like

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Speaker 1: physical damage, like where you can see the damage on

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Speaker 1: your body. My son actually hit me in the eye accidentally.

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Speaker 1: He's not abusing me. I was in so much pain

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Speaker 1: and you could see it. My eye was like red

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Speaker 1: and swollen and it really really hurt, really bad. But

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Speaker 1: what about the experience of pain in the brain? What

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Speaker 1: is going on? How we go from like incident to ouch,

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Speaker 1: and like what happens in between those moments in your brain.

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Speaker 3: So not to rub it in your face, but let's

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Speaker 3: use your eye be hurt as an example here. Okay,

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Speaker 3: the first thing that happened when he hits your eye

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Speaker 3: was you probably closed it immediately. This is like your

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Speaker 3: reflex response. So this really quick signal gets sent to

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Speaker 3: your cord and it tells your muscles clutsure eye.

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Speaker 2: Somebody's going on.

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Speaker 3: And then very very very soon after you start feeling it,

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Speaker 3: so that information travels from the nerves in your eye

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Speaker 3: to the spinal cord and then travels from the spinal

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Speaker 3: cord up to your brain, up to the airs that

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Speaker 3: are going to process how you're feeling. Not only the

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Speaker 3: quote unquote sensation of it, which is how much it hurts,

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Speaker 3: how it feels, was it sharp, was it dull? Where

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Speaker 3: is that even located, but also all the other aspects

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Speaker 3: of pain, like bringing it to your conscious attention. So

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Speaker 3: pain hurts, pain is annoying. I know you were not

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Speaker 3: happy when your eye got hurt. It not only tells

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Speaker 3: you what hurts, but also affects your emotions. It's like

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Speaker 3: the quote unquote suffering associated with that physical sensation, and

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Speaker 3: it overlaps with all these different circuits in your brain

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Speaker 3: that process emotion and mood. So it's this very complex

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Speaker 3: experience that involves things like emotion and attention, and you

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Speaker 3: might think about it later to so memory, the memory

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Speaker 3: of that too gets encoded. So it's this huge, very

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Speaker 3: complex process that starts with something interacting with your eye

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Speaker 3: and ending with this pretty complex experience that you will

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Speaker 3: remember afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Right right, Lindsay I love how you broke that down

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Speaker 1: because I feel like pain is this thing we do

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Speaker 1: not have a good grasp on. We have so many advances,

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Speaker 1: so much technology, so many things we know, and pain

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Speaker 1: feels like this hard thing for us to wrap our

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Speaker 1: arms around. And I don't hear people talk about the

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Speaker 1: emotional aspect of pain. But two or three episodes ago,

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Speaker 1: we talked to doctor Jessica Bodie, who's also at the

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Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania at the School of Medicine, and doctor

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Speaker 1: Bodie talked about are iFIT, which is the eating disorder

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Speaker 1: where you have like restrictive eating, and she talked about

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Speaker 1: how people who have early pain from like gastrointestinal problems

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Speaker 1: or diet jest of issues, it makes them hesitant to

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Speaker 1: try new foods and do different things because of the

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Speaker 1: memory of that pain. And it also made me think

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Speaker 1: about something that I haven't talked about a lot. I

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Speaker 1: am technically on vacation right but I'm doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of physical activity now. I had about of sciatica a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, and I have been so nervous to

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Speaker 1: retrigger that shooting pain, and it makes me walk gingerly

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Speaker 1: when I'm doing different it makes me change my whole everything,

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Speaker 1: and even when I think about what I couldn't do

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Speaker 1: and how I felt when I was going through this,

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Speaker 1: and it was almost like a depression in addition to

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Speaker 1: the physical ailment. Are we starting to understand more about

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Speaker 1: like what are you learning in your lab about the

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Speaker 1: emotional ties to pain?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, So before we even talk about that, Like,

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Speaker 3: there's what you mentioned having sciatica. There's a difference between

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Speaker 3: this everyday pain that you might feel from stubbing your

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Speaker 3: toe or touching on hot stove and this long term

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Speaker 3: chronic form of pain that can happen from nerve injuries

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Speaker 3: like psiatica, and that chronic pain largely uses different brain

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Speaker 3: circuits than that acute type of pain, and it's also

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Speaker 3: tightened with the emotional stuff and you form that memory

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Speaker 3: over time too. So for example, my dad also had

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Speaker 3: zyetica and he was very unhappy. And a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who have chronic pain also co present with disorders

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Speaker 3: like depression and anxiety, And it sucks because then anxiety

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Speaker 3: and stress also interact with pain circuits to make pain

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Speaker 3: feel even worse. So the stress from feeling pain can

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Speaker 3: also increase your pain perception and it's like this destructive cycle.

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Speaker 3: And if you think about it, evolutionarily, an animal would

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Speaker 3: want to feel bad after feeling pain because the goal

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Speaker 3: is to avoid physical.

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Speaker 2: Harm so that you can continue your species.

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Speaker 3: But it's like that way out of order where you

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Speaker 3: feel bad and you feel worse, and you feel worse

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Speaker 3: and you feel worse, and it's kind of hard sometimes

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Speaker 3: to break out of it. That's why a lot of

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Speaker 3: people find that their chronic pain disorders get better after

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Speaker 3: getting things like cognitive behavioral therapy or something called pain

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Speaker 3: repressing therapy, which separates the feeling of pain from the

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Speaker 3: fear of it and that anxiety that comes with it.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's deep. That is very very deep.

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Speaker 1: I mean you're talking about different areas of your brain

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Speaker 1: that are active during different types of pain. What is

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Speaker 1: the difference in the brain signal, So like I get

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Speaker 1: hit in the eye, I stubb my toe, I get

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Speaker 1: a paper cut, I burn my hand, versus I have

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Speaker 1: this injury from a car accident that is really causing

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Speaker 1: me a lot of pain. The signals that your brain

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Speaker 1: is sending, or the areas of your brain that are

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Speaker 1: being activated, what are those different areas and why is

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Speaker 1: that the response for those different types of pain.

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Speaker 3: So the answer is like pretty complicated because it.

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Speaker 2: Changes in every area.

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Speaker 3: So there are areas that are involved in both the

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Speaker 3: short term as we call it a cute pain and

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Speaker 3: that low long term chronic pain. And then for example,

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Speaker 3: I study in an area called the thalmis, and the

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Speaker 3: thalamus is involved in both acute and chronic pain.

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Speaker 2: And then also quote unquote emotional.

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Speaker 3: Part of the physical pain is processed like in the

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Speaker 3: middle of the thalmis, and then that sensation is on

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Speaker 3: the outside of the thelmis or the edges of it.

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Speaker 3: So it's like a cute and chronic pain kind of

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Speaker 3: overlap too sometimes and then also don't overlap in other

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Speaker 3: brain areas, so it kind of just depends on the

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Speaker 3: area you're talking about. So then the question of why

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Speaker 3: would this happen, Well, one is that chronic pain doesn't

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Speaker 3: start chronic, It starts acute.

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Speaker 2: So it's a transition. So it starts off in certain

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Speaker 2: areas and then.

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Speaker 3: It kind of like these brain patterns and these networks shift.

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Speaker 2: It's called like synaps of plasticity.

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Speaker 3: This I don't call it learning, but it's this changing

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Speaker 3: the brain changes the way it's wired to kind of

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Speaker 3: accommodate this new state in which you are in pain

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Speaker 3: almost constantly, and that looks different just as a result,

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Speaker 3: like I said earlier, because of all these things that

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Speaker 3: the pain is doing to affect the other brain processes

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: So it's very complicated and it's different in every person.

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Speaker 3: So it would be really easy if you could just

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Speaker 3: target a particular brain area right and be like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is gonna look exactly like this one is a cute,

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Speaker 3: and exactly like that one is chronic. But it sometimes

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Speaker 3: differs between people, so it's not as easy as to treat.

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Speaker 1: Even our perceptions of pain is different from person to person,

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Speaker 1: so what is very painful for one person might not

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Speaker 1: be as painful. I think about when folks be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm tenderheaded, like when they get braids done and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and to me, like when I'm getting braids done and

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Speaker 1: they're doing it really tight, it feels very nice to me,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know why. Like the play, I'm like, ooh,

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Speaker 1: that feels nice. Like certain parts of my head, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I wish you could undo this braid, redo it, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is about it, But that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. People are experiencing pain in different ways. Is

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Speaker 1: that something that is geneicic or is it something that

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Speaker 1: you know it's just I'm lucky that I'm not tender.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a mixture of both.

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Speaker 3: Zakia was talking about certain pains that you feel can

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Speaker 3: change the way you experience pain in the future. So

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Speaker 3: maybe when you were a kid, you just remember how

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Speaker 3: much it used to hurt, and like now you hate

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Speaker 3: it and it feels even worse to you now. But

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Speaker 3: sometimes it could just be genetic, like you just have

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Speaker 3: a different pain tong th to somebody else, So it

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Speaker 3: differs in that way. But the other thing I want

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Speaker 3: to say too is pain doesn't always feel bad. I mean,

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Speaker 3: think about situations where you are in physical pain, but

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Speaker 3: you like it, like a really deep tissue massage exactly. Yes,

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Speaker 3: So that reminded me of that where like they're pulling

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Speaker 3: like a scalp.

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Speaker 2: I cannot relate to that feeling, but I do know

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Speaker 2: what it's like to get DeepC massage and be.

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Speaker 3: Like, oh, this hurts so good. So a lot of

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Speaker 3: these tools like mindfulness. Earlier I was talking about therapy,

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Speaker 3: like cognitive behavioral therapy, even things like hypnosis. I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to tell you they don't work, because for some

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Speaker 3: people they work a lot, but I will say they're

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Speaker 3: not what we would consider a cure because they don't work.

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Speaker 2: On everybody and they don't work every time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so these techniques might not work on everybody, but

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Speaker 1: for the people that they do work on or the

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Speaker 1: people they work for, how sway, how does it work?

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Speaker 1: How are they turned down the pain dial?

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Speaker 3: Something we study in our lab two is really big

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Speaker 3: part of my PhD project is the natural opioid system.

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Speaker 3: So you might have heard of opioids drugs like morphine

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Speaker 3: or fentanyl even or heroin. Your brain makes its own opioids,

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Speaker 3: natural ones. A good example you might know is endorphins

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Speaker 3: that get released, you know, after exercise. Those are actually

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Speaker 3: natural opiend molecules that can relieve pain. So there's this huge,

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Speaker 3: growing field of literature where people are studying how natural

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Speaker 3: opioids and other natural chemicals can help cause pain relief

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Speaker 3: without any drugs, and how those are released during things

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Speaker 3: like hypnosis or mindfulness and other things like that.

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Speaker 2: So there's definitely a basis to it, and.

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Speaker 3: I think the ultimate goal is to kind of quote

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Speaker 3: unquote hack that natural opioid system. Because opioid drugs have

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Speaker 3: harmful side effects. They can block your muscle movement, including

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Speaker 3: the muscles that help you breathe or which can be fatal.

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Speaker 3: They can be highly addictive. But these natural opioids are

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Speaker 3: released in very tiny amounts in very specific parts of

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Speaker 3: the brain in a way that gives you that pain

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Speaker 3: relief without this dependence or any of these negative side

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Speaker 3: effects by like bathing the whole body in opioids like

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Speaker 3: you would when you take a drug.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now I really want to zoom into your

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Speaker 1: specific research. What questions are you trying to answer with

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Speaker 1: your PhD work and how are you studying that and

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Speaker 1: what has surprised you so far.

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Speaker 3: The first question that I tried to answer was based

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Speaker 3: on this natural pain relieving process. And something I didn't

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Speaker 3: mention is another time that these natural opiids get released

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Speaker 3: is during placebo, during what we call this expectation of

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Speaker 3: pain relief, just the expectation that something will relieve your

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Speaker 3: pain can be enough to relieve your pain because of

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Speaker 3: the release of these natural opious So what we did

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Speaker 3: in our lab was we use this model where we

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Speaker 3: basically taught animals to relieve their own pain, kind of

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Speaker 3: trick them into doing it, because you know, you can't.

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Speaker 2: Just be like, relieve your pain, it's a mouse.

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Speaker 3: So what we did was we would put them into

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Speaker 3: two different chambers and be like, in this chamber, you're

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Speaker 3: gonna feel pain from like a warm plate that's under them.

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Speaker 3: Not too hot that they burn their skin or anything

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Speaker 3: like that, but definitely uncomfortable, something that they don't want

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Speaker 3: to be in. So you put them in one chamber

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Speaker 3: and say this chamber is associated with pain and the

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Speaker 3: other one is not. Every day you put them in

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Speaker 3: the pain chamber and they are able to freely run

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Speaker 3: into the one that's safe, and they learned that when

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Speaker 3: they make this action into this quote unquote safe chamber,

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Speaker 3: their pain is going to be relieved. Afterwards, we make

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Speaker 3: that safe chamber unsafe again. So they've run into the

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Speaker 3: other chamber, and you would expect them to realize that

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Speaker 3: it's hot and start exhibiting behaviors that show that they're

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Speaker 3: in pain.

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Speaker 2: But instead we saw that the.

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Speaker 3: Animals would run into the other chamber and even though

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Speaker 3: they're still on a hot plate, they would be sitting there.

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Speaker 2: Wow, chilling.

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Speaker 3: They weren't even they weren't even moving much. They weren't

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Speaker 3: like in any kind of distress. It wouldn't last very long.

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Speaker 3: We'd be around ninety seconds. But in that time, yeah, honestly,

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Speaker 3: it is long. In that time, they would mostly be still,

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Speaker 3: maybe a little bit of grooming, and then you would

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Speaker 3: see them be like, oh wait, it would wear off

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Speaker 3: a little bit. They'd start walking around and then they'd

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Speaker 3: be like, oh no. They run to the other side.

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Speaker 3: They realize, oh wait, nothing's safe, and by then the

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Speaker 3: tests almost over.

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Speaker 2: So we just put them out.

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Speaker 3: But it's this process of that expectation, just the expectation

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Speaker 3: that it's going to be safe. There is enough for

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Speaker 3: even a mouse to quote unquote like relieve its own pain.

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Speaker 3: So then what we do in the lab is we

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Speaker 3: have different brain areas that we know are involved in

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Speaker 3: pain relief and this natural opiod release.

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Speaker 2: So what we're doing is tracking the activity of.

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Speaker 3: Cells that are involved in pain relief during this process

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Speaker 3: and then also measuring the actual opioids that get released

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Speaker 3: and just seeing how can we further understand this process.

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Speaker 3: This model was just created in the past few years,

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Speaker 3: and we really haven't had a good one since then,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't really have a good one before then,

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Speaker 3: so still early stages. But it's really cool because we

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Speaker 3: get to really investigate these brains because of how they

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Speaker 3: change in this process, so that we can work towards

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Speaker 3: building tools to harness what we've.

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Speaker 2: Learned and replicating in a way.

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Speaker 3: That's safe for people, well, first mice and then people

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Speaker 3: who live with chronic pain.

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Speaker 1: I can draw so many parallels, which I know, lindsay,

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Speaker 1: you may say not scientific, don't do as a kid,

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Speaker 1: but I was just thinking when you were talking about this,

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Speaker 1: about this model of like expectation of pain relief, and

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Speaker 1: we learned this from being children. You know, you get

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Speaker 1: a boo boo and a parent comforts you and they like,

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Speaker 1: let me kiss it is gonna make it feel better.

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Speaker 1: You think it feels better. They didn't do anything, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it's just the expectation that it feels better. All

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Speaker 1: they're doing is spreading those germs around.

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Speaker 2: And.

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Speaker 1: I disinfected, right. I think about that, and then I

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Speaker 1: think about this as an adult. And I'm extrapolating a

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Speaker 1: little bit, quite a bit, but I'm thinking about what

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Speaker 1: it means to move through a world that may feel unsafe,

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Speaker 1: but to have community that does feel safe, Like when

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Speaker 1: I know I'm gonna be with my friends, I have

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Speaker 1: the expectation of pain relief, and I'm already feeling good

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Speaker 1: expecting that. So even if things are unbearable, they're a

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Speaker 1: little less unbearable, right, Like it feels a little bit

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Speaker 1: more tolerable, even for ninety seconds, Like the animals and

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Speaker 1: the experiment like the same thing, And I think there's

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Speaker 1: something really beautiful to that, for sure.

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Speaker 2: The powerfulacebo.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the strongest placebo effects that your body

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Speaker 3: can do when it comes to pain. So much of

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Speaker 3: that experience of pain is mediated and generated by the

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Speaker 3: brain and can be changed by the brain too, if

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Speaker 3: only it could be done very easily.

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Speaker 2: We're still working on that.

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Speaker 1: I know that for me when I think about like

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Speaker 1: just like common pain that I have, it's like headaches,

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Speaker 1: back aches, my shoulder might be hurting or something like that.

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Speaker 1: I have some wrist pain and I'm always taking like

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Speaker 1: a tile and all or something like that. And I

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Speaker 1: know that a lot of folks don't. It always goes

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Speaker 1: viral on my timeline, which means it's a question I

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Speaker 1: have too, like how do these pain relievers work, Like,

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Speaker 1: how does it know that the pain is in my wrist?

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Speaker 1: How does it know that my head hurts? And these

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Speaker 1: are questions that folks have. Can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about how some of these pain relieving medicines drugs

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Speaker 1: work and what they're doing when they get in our body.

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Speaker 2: I can talk about hyberprofen for example.

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Speaker 3: Hyberprofen is what we call an instead, so it stands

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Speaker 3: for a non steroidal anti inflammatory drug.

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Speaker 2: If you have a stomach ache or a wrist ache

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Speaker 2: and you take.

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Speaker 3: A certain amount of eyberprofen, it's not necessarily that the

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Speaker 3: hyberprofen is traveling to your wrists or your belly and

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Speaker 3: telling it come.

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Speaker 2: It's really.

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Speaker 3: Going all over the body and it's just floating around

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Speaker 3: and relieving inflammation. So if you have a kind of

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Speaker 3: pain that's like driven by inflammation, then just putting this

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Speaker 3: drug in your system, it'll eventually get to that area

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Speaker 3: and fee your blood and then relieve that and that

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Speaker 3: can help reduce the amount of pain signals that get

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Speaker 3: sent to your brain. Or maybe you're used to taking

438
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 3: iboprofen all the time and you know what's worked before,

439
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: so just the process of taking that truck can be

440
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 3: enough to at least help their brain be.

441
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: Like ooh, this painerly is coming.

442
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to just start doing the motion. TT's mind

443
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: is strong. I could give TT a jelly bean and

444
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: she'll be like pain relieved, okay, the same way braining

445
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: up her scalp feels wonderful. I think you should study

446
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 1: TT and the pain. Don't study means so scary. I

447
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: know we're coming close to time. I want to ask

448
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: you one more thing. I'm curious as we continue to

449
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: learn more. I think there were things before people used

450
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 1: to laugh about the placebo effect, and it's like, now, look,

451
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 1: you know we're changing, we know more, we are opening

452
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: our minds more. I'm curious about what you might be

453
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: excited about. I feel like there's neuroscience in the news

454
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: all the time. Recently, I saw something about phantom limbs,

455
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: like when somebody loses a limb and that they still

456
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: feel the limb being there. And now we know. I

457
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: saw a paper that just came out like, yeah, the

458
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: brain has a map of the body and it doesn't

459
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: change when you have like a limb amputated. So it

460
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,239
Speaker 1: makes sense things that people thought were like oh, they

461
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: don't really feel this. We are continuing to expand what

462
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: we know about what the brain does. What are you

463
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: excited about, what do you see in the pipeline, or

464
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: what do you not see but want to see in

465
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: your field? Any of those.

466
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: So something I'm personally excited about is another side of

467
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: pain that is studied less, and that is something called

468
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 3: visceral pain or this like internal pain that might happen.

469
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 3: So like I mentioned earlier, stomach aches, pains in your

470
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: intestines from insulatory bowel, moving out of the intestines, pelvic

471
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: pain from periods, women's health. There's so many understudied topics

472
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: within that field and how the brain processes those types

473
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: of pain, because we're beginning to understand it's not the

474
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 3: exact same way as you would feel when you have

475
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: something that gives you pain on your skin versus internal organs.

476
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 3: So I think that the field is definitely learning more

477
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 3: about things like endometrios is pain or sickle cell pain

478
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: and then colon cancer pain, these things that come from

479
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 3: these internal organs that kind of got a later start

480
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: to being studied, And I'm really excited about that, and

481
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: that's the kind of work I want to do in

482
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: the future. My goal is to end up starting my

483
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 3: own lab and that's what I want to study in

484
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 3: that so I'm very excited about that space, especially as

485
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 3: it applies to people with pain disorders that are just

486
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 3: not studied as much as others are. I'm very excited

487
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: about the way the field is going too, and I

488
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: know that if we broaden the types of things that

489
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 3: we study and we fund and we really go in depth,

490
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 3: I think we will definitely have.

491
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: A bigger impact as a field and people won't.

492
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: Just think of pain as oh, that's the thing I

493
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 3: feel sometimes when I stub my toe, but really as

494
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 3: something that can really impact somebody's entire life and does

495
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: require a lot of time, attention, and money to help solve.

496
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: Yes, Lindsey, I think you've given us a lot to

497
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,239
Speaker 1: think about. I know I'm going to be taking that

498
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: expectation of the pain and trying to apply that to

499
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 1: all things in my life. Okay, is there anything else

500
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: you think our listeners should know?

501
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: Well, all just said something I say all the time,

502
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: your experience of pain, somebody might be telling you you're

503
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 3: making it up. And even if there is no quote

504
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: unquote evidence in your physical body, that you're experiencing that pain.

505
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that your pain isn't real.

506
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: Like I said, it is an experience generated by your brain,

507
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: and it is felt by you and it is processed

508
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 3: in complex ways throughout your body and affects your life.

509
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: So that does not mean that it is not real.

510
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 3: And honor that. And definitely, like I said, there's no

511
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: absolute cure for pain, but there are many many strategies

512
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 3: that many people find super helpful that I've changed their lives.

513
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 3: Please do your research, find what works for you, and

514
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 3: I'm rooting for you and for your release.

515
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: Love it. Thank you so much for joining us today, Lindsay,

516
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: thank you.

517
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: This is really cool, you know.

518
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: T T This lap really opened my eyes. I feel

519
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: like pain is something that all of us experience, but

520
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: hearing it broken down in this way, it makes me

521
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: think of it like a lot differently, not even just

522
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, Like it's so much more complex.

523
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: Like the way that I experience pain and the way

524
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: that you experience pain is different and all valid, you

525
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And so it's just like we

526
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: all have to be a lot more understanding and open

527
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: our minds up to people having different experiences than we are.

528
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: It feels just like the Arfit episode that we did

529
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: where it was just like, oh, somebody that has this disorder,

530
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: you know, is experiencing this. And it's not just like, oh,

531
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: you're a picky eater, or why don't you like this thing?

532
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: How come you're only eating whatever chicken tenders at the restaurant.

533
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: We have to take a step back and be like, listen,

534
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: everyone is different, Yes, and I think we just touched

535
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg when it comes to like

536
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: chronic pain, and when Lindsay was explaining these emotional aspects

537
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: and how you remember things and how early experiences or

538
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: late experiences can make you want to avoid pain. I've

539
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: never broken a bone. I don't want to, Okay, Like,

540
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: just thinking about all of those things and how the colors,

541
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: how we move through the world, how we anticipate pain

542
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: or anticipate relief from it, it just was so much.

543
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: I feel like it just cracked my skull open just

544
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: a bit. I've never broken a bone, I've never been

545
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: stung by a bee. I don't want any of those things.

546
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: And so yes, when I see that bee, I'm taking

547
00:28:53,280 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: off honey. Okay, Yeah. My friend turned to flow joe H.

548
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: That's right. A big thank you to Lindsey Edgoe, also

549
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: known as neuro Melody on Instagram. Check out the show description.

550
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: We will have her handle there. You can click and

551
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: learn more about neuroscience directly from her. You can find

552
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast, ct

553
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho,

554
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: and you can find Zakiya at z said So. Dope

555
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: Labs is a production of Leimanada Media. Our supervising producer

556
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Asevez. Dope

557
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber.

558
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: Limanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger.

559
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: Executive producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead

560
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: is Alison Kanter. Original music composed and produced by taking

561
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey.

562
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: Dope Labs is executive produced by us T T Show

563
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: Dia and Zakiyah Watki