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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I'm never told to your protection of I Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: is how stuff works. Today, we're talking about something that

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Speaker 1: I think is frequently misunderstood UM. And before we get

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Speaker 1: into it, we did want to say that this is

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Speaker 1: we're giving it the not Safer work stamps. Yes, perhaps

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Speaker 1: so that means don't blast it on your computer while

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Speaker 1: you're trying to look up the email Bob about the

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Speaker 1: long email he sent you. Why unless you're trying to

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Speaker 1: get fired or leave on an epic, they just blast it. Actually,

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Speaker 1: they should wait to bless it on the interviews when

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Speaker 1: they get more detailed what they like. Yeah, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: might be building it up more than it is, but

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Speaker 1: it's just so interesting. It is. It is UM and

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Speaker 1: it is one of those things that I think has

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Speaker 1: been seen as taboo. But we're talking about b D

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Speaker 1: s M and the world of bondage, kink and kink,

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Speaker 1: and we we're fortunate enough are really you You were

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Speaker 1: the one who did the leg work on this, and

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Speaker 1: we found people too who are who are willing to

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Speaker 1: speak with that about it. You're actually kind of excited

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Speaker 1: thing to speak with us because they wanted to break

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Speaker 1: that stereotype, the stigma that comes with what bondage means,

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Speaker 1: what kink means, and women in that world, or those

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Speaker 1: who identify as female in that world, And it was

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Speaker 1: really kind of beautiful to hear everything they said, Like

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Speaker 1: I was, I don't know about you. I'll learn a lot,

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Speaker 1: oh yes, but just it was fascinating because this world

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Speaker 1: is seemingly better on track on some things when it

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Speaker 1: comes to sexuality than the heateral normative ideas or the

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Speaker 1: normative ideas of what sex is right. And we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about some of that stuff for shore and they

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Speaker 1: they speak to some of those things in in the

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Speaker 1: interviews that we did, but before we get into those interviews,

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Speaker 1: we we did want to do kind of an overview.

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Speaker 1: Numbers are a bit difficult to come by from this world.

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Speaker 1: A study out of Australia found that over a year period,

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Speaker 1: one point eight percent of sexually active people, two point

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Speaker 1: two percent of men and one point three percent of

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Speaker 1: women were involved in b D s M, and that

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Speaker 1: the numbers were higher among the l G B t

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Speaker 1: Q plus community. A two thousand and five studies suggest

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Speaker 1: that Americans might be more into b D s M

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Speaker 1: than the rest of the world. Thirty six percent of

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Speaker 1: adults reported using blindfolds, masks, and bondage during sex. The

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Speaker 1: worldwide number is thought to be around That's interesting because

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Speaker 1: when I was researching some things, the whole statistics of

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Speaker 1: I guess sex toys or UM toys used in bondage

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Speaker 1: or b D s M in the bedroom alone, America

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Speaker 1: was ranked as one of the higher ones in using

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Speaker 1: these things as well. So it just because we're maybe

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Speaker 1: more open. Oh, I don't think that's what it is.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so either, But I think that's fascinating,

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Speaker 1: especially when you think of European ideas. Maybe that's just

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Speaker 1: a stereotype. That's true. That's true, UM, and maybe we

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Speaker 1: should take a step back good because I feel like

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Speaker 1: most people know what b D f M is, but

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Speaker 1: I bet a lot of people hear that what they

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Speaker 1: think of is ift shades of gray, which did do

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Speaker 1: a lot to bring it into our cultural mainstream, even

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Speaker 1: if a lot of it was incorrect. Um are just

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Speaker 1: like whips and leather. So b D s M means

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Speaker 1: bondage and discipline, dominance and submission and sadism and masochism.

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Speaker 1: And there's a whole lot of stuff in there. We

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Speaker 1: got so much out of these interviews that we are

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Speaker 1: going to split it probably into two. Um, but just

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Speaker 1: just in case, like you, you've only got kind of

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Speaker 1: a vague idea, and we are going to go into well,

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Speaker 1: not us specifically, but people that we interviewed will go

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Speaker 1: into they'll break that down more for exactly. Study from

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Speaker 1: the Kinsey Institute found that five to ten per cent

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Speaker 1: of Americans regularly engage in s and m um, wh

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Speaker 1: should I always the h honest song whips. I remember,

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Speaker 1: actually that song was huge when I first got this job,

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Speaker 1: and I remember listening to it on Marta, which is

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Speaker 1: our public transport every day. I'm not gonna lie, I'm

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Speaker 1: really surprised that you listen to that sometimes. I just

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Speaker 1: get some pop cultures I would not imagine. Well, as

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Speaker 1: a runner, you need your beats per minute, and certain

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Speaker 1: songs um hit that beat per minute, and that's how

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Speaker 1: I know them, generally the popular one now, I think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: m Anyway, I found this interesting. A N study found

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Speaker 1: that of women in fifty of men like being bitten.

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Speaker 1: A N study found that sixty of university students fantasized

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Speaker 1: about being tied up. One study found that less than

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Speaker 1: ten percent of women like to dominate. And there is

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Speaker 1: a popular misconception that submissives are people who like to

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Speaker 1: be the submissive one in this kind of dynamic, this

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Speaker 1: power dynamic, are weak or have low self esteem in

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Speaker 1: your life, But in actuality, most bottoms or submissives have

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Speaker 1: a lot of power and want to take on the role,

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Speaker 1: a role different than every day Relinquishing control when you're

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Speaker 1: a control freak can be a relief um something like that.

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Speaker 1: But from the people we talked to, definitely exactly, and

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Speaker 1: and we even talked with a couple of black women

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Speaker 1: who are in that community, and they even talk about

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Speaker 1: the fact that it comes with the stigma for them

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Speaker 1: as well. If they say submissive. They talk about the

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Speaker 1: language in itself and the wars in itself and how

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Speaker 1: it kind of disrupts their mindsets even though it shouldn't.

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Speaker 1: And the Ugle hilar that more in the interview, and

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Speaker 1: I found that fascinating. But it does. It comes with

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Speaker 1: this whole connotation, and again we're gonna talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more. I found some research about that as well.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of assumptions out there that submission is

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Speaker 1: kind of again the weaker the dominant in that this

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Speaker 1: is women in general. Yeah, yeah, And I always have

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Speaker 1: to relate back to fan fiction, and I even brought

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Speaker 1: this up embarrassingly during the interview, but people in the

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Speaker 1: fan fiction will know that this is a very common

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Speaker 1: like you'll see dom sub um and usually and you

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Speaker 1: can find are the epic piece we did on a

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Speaker 1: fan fiction learn more about this. But most of it,

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Speaker 1: well not I don't know if I want to say most,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of the couples, even though they're written

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Speaker 1: by female writers, are gender nonconforming writers are male male

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Speaker 1: and the yeah male two men um and usually the

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Speaker 1: submissive one is understood to be the weaker one, and

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Speaker 1: it is. I mean, I love fan fiction, but there

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Speaker 1: are you can see a lot of toxic things play out.

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Speaker 1: Are just things that I think people have internalized and

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Speaker 1: don't realize they've internalized. So we're, yeah, for sure going

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Speaker 1: to bring that back up into the interviews. The percentage

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Speaker 1: of folks fantasizing about something that would fall under the

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Speaker 1: B d S m umbrella from psychology today is about

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Speaker 1: six or four point six percent. Of women in fifties

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Speaker 1: three point three percent of men that reported fantasies about

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Speaker 1: being dominated sexually and forty six point seven percent of women.

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Speaker 1: In fifty nine point six percent of men reported fantasies

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Speaker 1: about dominating someone sexually. All right, Actually, again, I think

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Speaker 1: I just hit on the fact that when I was

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Speaker 1: researching it, there's this assumption that women want to be taken,

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Speaker 1: because that's the best board I can give. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things that popped up. And I had no

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Speaker 1: idea when at first when I was reading through it

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Speaker 1: what kind of article it was. The site has some

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Speaker 1: interesting and off the mark ideas. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: else to say that, which I think is part of

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Speaker 1: the whole pick up artist. The site I think has yeah,

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Speaker 1: that kind of leaning, I mean, which while I was

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Speaker 1: reading it, an advertisement popped up, offering to teach me

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Speaker 1: the key of getting women to flood my bedroom. What's

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Speaker 1: the key? I don't know. And it's just because I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna lie. It's like, okay, now, that's this column

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Speaker 1: is making a lot more sense with that advertisement it self,

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Speaker 1: but in which the writerserts once again that women all

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Speaker 1: want to be dominated, and he used the word all

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Speaker 1: and all are submissive. And also, as we would say

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Speaker 1: it's incorrect. The whole idea of Madonna and horror persona

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Speaker 1: is real, and it's again taken on by every woman.

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Speaker 1: I guess. Um. It even continues with again all the

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Speaker 1: misogynistic idea that men are no longer men as he's

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Speaker 1: saying it today, and that's they're being domes emasculated, and

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Speaker 1: again he says this and must reprogram their minds to

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Speaker 1: get what they want and become quote unquote a real man,

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Speaker 1: because again apparently all women just want to be dominated.

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Speaker 1: And he even mentions his relationship with conservative women, religious

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Speaker 1: women and how he's like, yeah, they're they're freaks essentially

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Speaker 1: what he's saying in the bed. I was just like,

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Speaker 1: oh God, why am I reading this? I think every

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Speaker 1: few words I was carsing at the at the column.

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Speaker 1: But again, this isn't one of the first actually was

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Speaker 1: one of the first things I popped up when I

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Speaker 1: was searching and researching. I was like, I hate that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I encounter that a lot. Yeah. Also, we had a

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Speaker 1: fun off my conversation about the time my mom gave

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Speaker 1: me that book where Good Girls Go Bad, and I'm

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Speaker 1: still trying to figure out if it was a joke. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he actually highlights that as well. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to name off the site or or the author, but

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Speaker 1: he he says, as well, as you know, good girls

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Speaker 1: actually want to be bad girls, and this is how

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Speaker 1: you turned them. Oh my goodness. Um, well, um, going

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Speaker 1: back to some more research. You don't you don't like

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Speaker 1: my research? No, I mean it's important point to touch on.

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Speaker 1: How Also, yeah, be careful what you read when you're

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Speaker 1: researching these things. Yes, and that we heard that from

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Speaker 1: the people, Yes, about like the correct search terms to use.

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Speaker 1: Harvard University hosted group for Students interested in Consensual S

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Speaker 1: and M so as of the university, I believe, so. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, as I was researching more according to and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk a little more about kink, the

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Speaker 1: kink community as with the b D s M as well,

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Speaker 1: because this is kind of an overarching topic and overarching research,

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Speaker 1: I guess. Um. And according to the study titled Sensual,

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Speaker 1: Erotic and Sexual Behaviors of Women from the Kink Community,

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Speaker 1: and it's written by Jennifer eve Rohar because she just

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Speaker 1: had a lot like this is a lot of content,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, I want to I I want

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Speaker 1: to see what's going on. So if y'all look that up,

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Speaker 1: you can see that for yourself. So in eighteen eighties six,

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Speaker 1: Richard Vaughan Kraft Eating, I believe that's right, an early

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Speaker 1: quote unquote sexologist. I think he was one of those

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Speaker 1: with freud Um published Psychopathia Sexualities with a special reference

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Speaker 1: to the antipathic sexual instinct. A medical forensic study. I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing this is Ianish, which was known as an Encyclopedia

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Speaker 1: of sexual perversion. Now this is not what I'm calling it.

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Speaker 1: This is what it stated to be. So they looked

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Speaker 1: a lot about like criminal behavior or perverse behavior, as

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Speaker 1: they said again eighteen eighties six. So he studied more

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Speaker 1: than two clinical cases of unconventional sexual behavior. Again, remember

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Speaker 1: this book, of course, regarded sex a only as for reproduction,

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Speaker 1: and he focused normal sex quote unquote uh like the

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Speaker 1: penis vagina essentially, and that that was the normal behavior.

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Speaker 1: And this is everything else's a perversion, I guess, or

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Speaker 1: as he said, unconventional sex sexual behaviors. Almost all of

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Speaker 1: these clinical cases were based on male clients, and apparently

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Speaker 1: von Craft Eating documented only two cases of female sadism

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Speaker 1: and only two cases of female masochism, so this is

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Speaker 1: a really small number obviously, and acknowledge that he had

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Speaker 1: quote unquote thus far not succeeded in obtaining facts with

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Speaker 1: regards to pathological fetishism in women. And both of them

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Speaker 1: contended that masochism was the natural state for women, so

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Speaker 1: it's impossible to study female sexual masochism now that think

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Speaker 1: about it, that's weird. In a group attempted to again

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Speaker 1: research the Stato mesochistically oriented women, they only found thirty

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Speaker 1: four participants that fit their criteria, so they had a

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Speaker 1: specific mode UM and I think it discluded any sex

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Speaker 1: workers as well as UM I think some criminal behavior essentially.

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Speaker 1: But due to this, it was assumed that very few

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Speaker 1: women participated in kink and that research is slowly coming

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Speaker 1: to understand that the number of women and those who

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Speaker 1: identify as female actually enjoy and enthusiastically participate in the

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Speaker 1: kink and B s M world. Also, it was pointed

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Speaker 1: out that many people may not realize that the thing

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Speaker 1: they enjoyed are actually categorized as kink or b D

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Speaker 1: s M. And I think that's very true for many people.

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Speaker 1: And one of our interviewers talked about that she's just

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Speaker 1: like Oh, this is actually exactly what I like. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know it was a thing, um, And the article

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Speaker 1: has some interesting theories and lots of like side of research.

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Speaker 1: You should definitely go check it out if you want

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Speaker 1: to kind of see the history of research on it,

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Speaker 1: because the whole idea it was based on do women

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Speaker 1: enjoy this? And not necessarily that the numbers were correctly

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Speaker 1: saying this small amount. It was just they didn't get

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Speaker 1: enough participants. Whether it's a stigma of what kink in

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Speaker 1: fetishism and b D s M was or whether it's

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Speaker 1: uh they were excluding sex workers and at this point

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Speaker 1: they definitely brought back the idea, Yes, sex workers can

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Speaker 1: enjoy it as well, and it's not necessarily one excluding

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Speaker 1: the other. Also, this is coming from a very gender

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Speaker 1: normative perspective. Yes, Unfortunately, as with most right right um,

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Speaker 1: Despite a popular narrative otherwise, people who engage in b

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Speaker 1: D s M have been shown to have lower levels

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Speaker 1: of anxiety depression, PTSD, psychological sadism, psychological masochism, paranoia, and

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Speaker 1: borderline pathology when compared to a normative sample of those

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Speaker 1: that don't engage in b D s M. Because I

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Speaker 1: think it is a popular people think, if you're doing

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Speaker 1: b D s M something right not right in your

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Speaker 1: brain or something there's something kind of what was it?

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Speaker 1: What devian version type of like those titles that were

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Speaker 1: put on way back when right UM. People who engage

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Speaker 1: in b D s M also UM showed higher levels

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Speaker 1: of openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, and subjective well being,

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Speaker 1: and lower levels of rejection, sensitivity and eroticism. UM research

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Speaker 1: has shown that after a scene in b D s

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Speaker 1: M UM, which is kind of like an agreed upon,

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Speaker 1: like negotiated what frequently said, this is what we're gonna do,

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Speaker 1: this is the thing the bottom are, the submissive experience

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Speaker 1: both decrease in psychological stress and an increase in physiological stress,

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Speaker 1: which is interesting because it does suggest an altered state

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Speaker 1: of consciousness. Further tests found that bottoms interest state called

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Speaker 1: transient hype b frontality in tops or dominance interstate known

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Speaker 1: as flow. Transient hypofrontality comes with sensations of floating, reductions

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Speaker 1: and pain, time distortions and peace. Flow, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: is associated with focused attention, optimal performance, and a loss

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Speaker 1: of self consciousness. Historically, ancient Greek art depicted b D

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Speaker 1: s M and the Comma Sutra circus featured erotic spanking.

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Speaker 1: Brothels that specialized in dominating men date back to the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century. Point being this is not a new thing

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Speaker 1: and overall point being frequently misunderstood, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: a lot more people participated than most people think. Right again,

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Speaker 1: as we were talking about the earlier studies and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have do not know that it is

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Speaker 1: identified as bad as them or which about brings us

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Speaker 1: to our interviews, right, but first it brings us to

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Speaker 1: a quick break for a workingmer sponsor and we're back,

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Speaker 1: thank you sponsoring. So I actually was linked with Sammy,

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Speaker 1: who you're gonna hear on the interview, and she's been

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Speaker 1: involved in the Atlanta kink community for a few years now.

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Speaker 1: And with that we were also able to talk with Lily,

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Speaker 1: Moxie and Rema. I'm gonna say I learned so much

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Speaker 1: from them it was amazing. So here you go, it's

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Speaker 1: how to learn. Hi, I'm Sammy. Um do you want

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Speaker 1: me to say something about who? I say? Whatever you want, Sammy? Yeah? Yeah, Like, um,

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Speaker 1: who who are you? A questions question? Uh? So I

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Speaker 1: am here today because um, I'm involved in the kink community,

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Speaker 1: and um, I'm here to share my story a little

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Speaker 1: bit UM and I'm Lily, And I think kind of

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Speaker 1: the reason I'm here is probably because I am also

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Speaker 1: a part of the local king community and also the

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Speaker 1: regional and national king community. I have a lot of

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Speaker 1: different kink I entities that also include power, exchange, enthusiasm,

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Speaker 1: and some fetishism around bondage and some uh maybe some

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Speaker 1: interesting things that are not so common. I am Moxie.

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Speaker 1: I am UM a budding and exciting or like excited

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Speaker 1: sexual advocate UM also inclusive lgbt Q, UM like feminist.

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Speaker 1: And I'm excited to be here today to talk to

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Speaker 1: you guys about one of my favorite topics about type.

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Speaker 1: My name is Rama. Um how I got involved right? Well,

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Speaker 1: asked My mom likes to tell all my girlfriends. Do

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Speaker 1: you also walk around the house and just tie everything

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Speaker 1: up and tire sisters up? My sisters will tell you

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Speaker 1: where's the shoe string is wrapped around one of my sisters. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: bondage has always been an amazing story, has always been there,

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Speaker 1: and I just like time people up so being people

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Speaker 1: calls some pain that's my So are you a top

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Speaker 1: or a dom or up are you talk about theom

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Speaker 1: I'm a dog? So you said your mom, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that. Does your mom know that you're part of

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Speaker 1: the pink world because you were just very open about

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Speaker 1: So when I started ordering rope initially had it going

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Speaker 1: to her house and she was like, why do you

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Speaker 1: keep ordering so much Rope? And I stopped. I was like,

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Speaker 1: do you really want to know? And she was like,

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Speaker 1: my god, and she was like, my kids are in

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Speaker 1: such interesting things. She was like, I don't want to know.

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Speaker 1: And I was just like okay. She was like, what

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Speaker 1: you doing? I said, remember that thing you said you

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Speaker 1: don't want to know? She was like, okay, I'll talked

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Speaker 1: to you later. I'm just like, cool, So your mom

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Speaker 1: has an idea, yeah, but you're not. You're not hiding anything.

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Speaker 1: I love I love it. So I met Sammy through

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Speaker 1: a friend of ours and we had we were having

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Speaker 1: a conversation about how I was part of this podcast

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Speaker 1: now and we wanted to jump into conversations about women

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Speaker 1: in sexuality and not only that, but the ideas that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people don't think in regards to feminism

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Speaker 1: or feminist females or those who identify as film up

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Speaker 1: females and sex and one of the things we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: you and I were talking about kink and fetishes and bondage.

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Speaker 1: What does that look like when it comes to a

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Speaker 1: female perspective, because we often hear this through male perspective

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Speaker 1: or misogynistic ideas, whereas very male controlled from what I

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Speaker 1: understand from what I've seen more so than anything else.

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Speaker 1: And you and I had a conversation, what does this

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Speaker 1: look like when it is female driven or and or

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Speaker 1: um you know, something that is enjoyed by women, and

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Speaker 1: how do we look at it and talk about it

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Speaker 1: unless explore this idea of women enjoying sex, women enjoying pink.

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Speaker 1: I know, right, Let's go ahead and start off with

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Speaker 1: can you guys give us some terms or specific words

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Speaker 1: or the definitions to some of the things that you

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Speaker 1: may say that we might not understand or using everyday

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Speaker 1: conversation because you were talking about the power all of that.

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Speaker 1: Can you kind of define what some of these may be, like,

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Speaker 1: I know we'll be using dun, submissive and all of those.

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Speaker 1: If you can give us some little baseline words. Sure, Um, So,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to express first and foremost that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the community will use these

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Speaker 1: words differently than I might. UM. So these are just

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Speaker 1: how I might use these definitions. UM. And when you

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Speaker 1: think of B D, S M, it's an acronym that

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Speaker 1: people can use, like there are four different ways to

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Speaker 1: even define that one acronym. So just know that there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of debate around this UM. There it's like

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Speaker 1: any sort of subculture. There's a ton of people who

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Speaker 1: have different opinions. UM. But in general it kind of

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Speaker 1: encompasses this idea and what I was speaking about when

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Speaker 1: I said power exchanges, this idea of like very intentionally

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Speaker 1: making a decision around one party having a power or

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Speaker 1: authority or florthy other. And that can be in like

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Speaker 1: a very discreete way, so like over the course of

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Speaker 1: one interaction, so like a scene or play, Um, that

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Speaker 1: could be an hour or one day or one evening,

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Speaker 1: or over the course of an entire relationship that could

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Speaker 1: be a lifelong relationship. Right. So power exchange can occur

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Speaker 1: in a lot of different context it can occur at

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Speaker 1: a lot of different intensity levels, UM, And it can

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Speaker 1: be defined by a lot of different sort of behaviors. UM.

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Speaker 1: But when I say power exchange, I generally mean a consensual, informed,

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Speaker 1: intentional decision by two parties to give one party a

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Speaker 1: leadership role and authority over the other party. So when

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Speaker 1: I say that I'm enthusiastic about power exchange, I both

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Speaker 1: mean in discrete ways like in interactions, but also um,

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Speaker 1: I actively pursue those types of relationships as well. UM.

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Speaker 1: So that's like kind of the main way that my

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Speaker 1: personal kink manifest and it looks different with different people

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Speaker 1: and in different interactions. UM, but that would be like

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Speaker 1: the primary way of defining uh that for me. And

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Speaker 1: then also you have something like s M, which is

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Speaker 1: just sado massochism, So you have sadism and massochism, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of more the it's more about the actions

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Speaker 1: and the things that are really occurring between two people.

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Speaker 1: So that's more about sensation. It's more about pain and

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Speaker 1: experiences of pain and sensation, so it's a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: It's more about the actual physical um and sometimes emotional experiences.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you want to add to that.

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Speaker 1: The other terms that we might use been talking about

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Speaker 1: ropes specifically is probably tops and bottoms, um or rigor um.

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Speaker 1: The rigor or top is the person who's doing the tying, um,

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Speaker 1: and the bottom is the person who's being tied, and

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Speaker 1: shabari is what the whole process of tying and the

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Speaker 1: kink world. We use a lot of Japanese words badly

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Speaker 1: in the United States when it comes to ro bondage.

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Speaker 1: We steal words and use them poorly. So we might

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Speaker 1: use words like shabarri or kimbuku to describe things that

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Speaker 1: in ways that most Japanese people would not, But we

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Speaker 1: do it anyway, um, because we've taken a lot of

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Speaker 1: inspiration from Japanese bondage culture. Um. Um. But I think

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Speaker 1: other than that, if we say something like uh, Lily

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Speaker 1: mentioned a scene, that's what we call it. If it's

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Speaker 1: a pre negotiated interaction um. And like Lily said, they

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Speaker 1: can be ten minutes or they can be ten days

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Speaker 1: like it just it depends on what's negotiated. And and again, UM,

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Speaker 1: my partner could tell you the history of it way

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Speaker 1: better than I could. Yeah, he is very into the

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Speaker 1: history of rope. Um. But it's a common misconception that

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Speaker 1: it comes from Japanese torture and it's like this ancient practice. Um.

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Speaker 1: When an actuality it seems like it and correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, Lily, you probably know this better than

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Speaker 1: I do as well. It UM kind of emerged in

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Speaker 1: like the sixties, right yea, So basically post World War two,

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Speaker 1: when most people were starting to be more creative with

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Speaker 1: their sexuality in the West end in the East was

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Speaker 1: when bondos started to become part of our sexual vernacular.

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Speaker 1: But like, I think there is still some inspiration from

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Speaker 1: ancient times when we look at like art and things

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Speaker 1: like that. And but there are a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: in the in the modern bondage community who want to

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Speaker 1: talk about how there's like this very distinctive timeline from

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Speaker 1: maybe like ancient um you stern times, and we mostly

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Speaker 1: just think that's not true. That's a red flag to

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Speaker 1: me if I hear a lot of people talking about

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Speaker 1: how what they're doing is like very traditional, we're just

427
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: making this stuff up. Really. But again, like any subculture,

428
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: and I would say specifically this what Eastern style of

429
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: bondage is a subculture of a subculture of a subculture. UM,

430
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,719
Speaker 1: there's elitism and like people are always trying to say

431
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: they're doing it a more authentic or traditional way than

432
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: other people. So you have these hierarchies that form so

433
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: are safe wards an actual thing? Or is that more

434
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: of a staffords are so misunderstand understood I could oh man,

435
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. If if I am, if I

436
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 1: am doing B D s M with a person and

437
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: they say, hey, could you stop doing that? I'm just

438
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: gonna stop doing that, okay, unless I have very specifically

439
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: negotiated for the When they say stop doing that, for

440
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: it not to mean stop doing that, right, okay. This

441
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: is called consensual nonconsent. It's a very specific type of play.

442
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: It can also be a type of relationship. It's very specific.

443
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: Unless you're doing that kind of play, you don't need

444
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: a safe word, right, This is my opinion. There are

445
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: people who argue with me. Okay. But like if I am,

446
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: for instance, doing a rope scene with Sammy and she says, hey,

447
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: you're not my right arm, can you fix it? Or hey,

448
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: you are hurting my elbow? Can you please move that

449
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: rope two inches up my elbow, I'll say absolutely, I

450
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 1: will let me fix up for you so we can

451
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: keep doing this thing that we both enjoy. She doesn't

452
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: need a safe word to communicate, and in fact, her

453
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: saying watermelon doesn't actually communicate. An't even think that communicate

454
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: to me. So I think that safe words are very

455
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: very misunderstood, and they are useful if you are in

456
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: a C and C scene conceptual non consent, where you

457
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: have decided I want to scream no, I want to

458
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: scream stop. I want to be at the top of

459
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: my left no. Stop. But I don't want you to

460
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: listen to me, right, Okay. I did have a situation

461
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: where I was playing with someone who had not played

462
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: with before and I was hurting them and they started

463
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 1: screaming No. One stopped, and so I stopped and they

464
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I didn't mean it, and I was like,

465
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: we didn't negotiate that, So I'm stopping, right, So now

466
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: I have to change my sapord from watermelon, don't it's

467
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: a security. If someone's going to ignore your please stop

468
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: doing that, we're going to ignore your safer it too, also,

469
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: so I think it creates a false sense of right.

470
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: And I wondered if that was just like a more

471
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: studio type, because it is kind. I do think that

472
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: there's a space for yellow and an impact because that

473
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: yellow yellow, like a common safe like phrase, is either

474
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: yellow or red and yellow is like Okay, that's not

475
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: too much, but you might be being close to too much,

476
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: so just keep that in mind, right, Um. And that's

477
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: especially if you're in in like rough impact scene or

478
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: something like that, there's less communication than when you're in rope.

479
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: For me, I'm not there is a time and a place,

480
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: but some people don't want to say sentences right, like

481
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: they don't want to Sometimes easier to be like okay, yellow,

482
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: but then be like okay, so slow it down a

483
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: little bit, but keep going. That's great, so very good point.

484
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I do think that also with especially

485
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: like rough impact scenes, there's a place for red two

486
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: or whatever is safe word you've I don't I don't

487
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: see a reason to not have it just be yellow

488
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: and red. But um if I do think there's a

489
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: place for red, because you can accidentally hurt someone if

490
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: you're like wrestling around with them, um in a way

491
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: that like you need them to stop touching you immediately.

492
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: And if you say like red and you know that,

493
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: then like they'll stop touching immediately, like if you think

494
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: you've pulled something out of socket or something like that. Um.

495
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: So I do think that in other types of play,

496
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: there's there is a place for this, there is another

497
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: there's a community thing where like if you're in a

498
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: in a setting where you're in public, right and someone

499
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: screams red across the room, everyone knows what that means.

500
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: So that is kind of a nice thing about it too,

501
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: And so I didn't mean to dismiss as like a

502
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: useless thing, right, They're just misunderstood, right, So like if

503
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: I am in a public place space and I hear

504
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: someone screaming right across the room, I'm I'm going to

505
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: be like, WHOA, what's going on? And everyone in that

506
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: room that's monitoring the safety of that environment is going

507
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: to be like, well, what's going on? Okay? Okay, that

508
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: makes less sense. So that being said as someone who

509
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: doesn't have no idea, and I'm learning so much and

510
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: I'm very very happy about it. But like one, do

511
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: you engage with in play with partners? Is it usually

512
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: that it happens um over a lot of like sessions

513
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: times are are is it kind of like one officer?

514
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: Is it mix of both, which I am assuming but

515
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: um and also um sex always involved? Or is it sometimes?

516
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: I love this question. I love this question for several reasons.

517
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: And I feel if I don't address something that you said,

518
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: please let me know. I'm a talker. So first, sex

519
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: is not always involved um with the play that I do.

520
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: I do know that there are people that sex and

521
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: kink are very much intertwined. They don't really have a

522
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: distinction between that for me because I think so much

523
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: of the play that I crave is about control. I like,

524
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: I can have control over you by just telling you

525
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: you can't use the restroom, like I don't need to

526
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: touch you, we don't need to engage in anything. And

527
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: that's fine for me. Like, yes, it will also turn

528
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: me on, but it's not something that I'm that will

529
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: always do that. It's just kind of like I love

530
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 1: that this person is letting me tell them what to do,

531
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: and that's awesome. And then there are also times and

532
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm just like that person is letting me tell them

533
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: what to do. This is awesome, And I think that

534
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: it's just it depends on the person. It's just really

535
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: being like we've been really clear about these boundaries. And

536
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: then even if I have been really clear, I have

537
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: to have a like, beyond reasonable doubt feel that you

538
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: are going to respect that. When I don't have that

539
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: agency because of the situation that I am in, and

540
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: I don't feel that with a lot of men, for one,

541
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: And so I don't play with men particularly, um often,

542
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: if at all. UM. And if I do play with men,

543
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: their bottoms for me, because I trust myself to respect

544
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: their consent. The light primal. So I'd like to like

545
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: wrestle and get a little rough. You could probably name

546
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 1: me roll up on me, but like taking a paddle

547
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: or taking your hand across my butt, You're probably gonna fight,

548
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: and not like the good pleasurable fight, like I'm really

549
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: trying to hurt you. So you just said the word primal,

550
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: is that it actually a term that is? So what

551
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: does that mean? Because I haven't heard that yet. Um.

552
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: Frequently it's turned with like a connection with an animal.

553
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: That's not how I find it. It's more just going

554
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: down to like that basic instinct of like using your

555
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: body to interact with someone else, which is probably all

556
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: of king I suppose, um. But for me, is that

557
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: I like to use my hands in my mouth a lot,

558
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: so biding, scratching, licking. I like to use my actual

559
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: strength to like lift people, and I do it in

560
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: rope to like tossing. It makes me feel powerful in control.

561
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: And then you see, I'm learning all these terms. I'm

562
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: working at these out now. Um. And then would you

563
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: say that because wrestling wasn't its own role. Yeah, because

564
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: there's no there are topping bottoms in primal, but it's

565
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: not as defined um, because we could be wrestling and

566
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: I can be topped, like if someone gets me down

567
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: on my back, I'm literally being topped. Um. And that's okay,

568
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: that's fine of course that we still have negotiations beforehand. Um.

569
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, I wouldn't really say there's entire roles unless

570
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: we're doing like a chasing capture the people that the

571
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: people's being chased are usually bottoms or subsum pray, Okay,

572
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: I'm a predator, Okay, so I will chase you. Okay,

573
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 1: I'm trying to capture you. Okay. So this is an

574
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: actual scene that you would play out. Let's chasing because

575
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: this is a new one as well. You're bringing some

576
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: new terms to us every day chase me around the house.

577
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: Is there any other stuff that you UM enjoy as well?

578
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: Because you seem to have a vibarride like splashing? What

579
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: is that? Um? It's also known as like messy food play.

580
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: We have some more of our interview interviews. I should say,

581
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: we gotta get the s in there, but first we

582
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: have one more quick break for a workmer sponsor, and

583
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you, sponsor. Let's get back into these interviews.

584
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: Can you tell us how you discovered the pink world

585
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 1: and how it was something that you decided, yes, this

586
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: is something that I like, this is what I want

587
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: to be a part of. Kind of just give us

588
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: your origin story. Essentially, I was never interested in regular pornography.

589
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: It was not interesting to me. But I definitely reading

590
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: erotica as a young person, was drawn to the type

591
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: of erotica where there were obvious power differentials. Um So,

592
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: things like where there's like a clear authority figure like

593
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: a teacher or a student, or like you know, things

594
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: where there's like a martial arts instructor and their student

595
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: or something like that. Um and so then you explore

596
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: online and they're all these like groups online, and but

597
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: I distinctly remember being like, oh, I don't know that

598
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: there are real people that do this, Like I can't

599
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: you know. I wasn't interested in interacting with real people

600
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: in that way for a long time. Um, but I

601
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: never you know, it's funny how your journey kind of progresses,

602
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: like the things that you think you might be interested

603
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: or not necessarily, how you how you end up falling,

604
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: and what ends up being interesting to you. I certainly

605
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: never imagined that I would have such a focus on

606
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: this like fairly technical rode bondage stuff that I spent

607
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: so much of my time doing. Um. I the first

608
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: time I saw someone doing complex rope suspension, I was like,

609
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: what is the point of that? Like why would you

610
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: even bother with that? And now I spend I mean,

611
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: it's my primary hobby and I spent hours every week

612
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: pursuing it. So who knows. I don't think I was

613
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: ever distinctly aware that I was into any sort of

614
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: UM b D s M until after I realized I

615
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: was into it, and I was like, oh my gosh,

616
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: I've been into this my whole life, Like it is

617
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: one of those things. I was like, oh, yeah, all

618
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: of these things throughout my life makes sense now, like um,

619
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: but I was, you know, doing the single thing and

620
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 1: on dating apps and I went out with this guy

621
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: who I was like, so I'm into b D s

622
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: M and you know, identify as a dominant and I

623
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: don't know if that freaks you out, but if you

624
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,959
Speaker 1: want to try some stuff with me, like that'd be cool.

625
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: And I decided to give it a shot. We went

626
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: on a few dates as in trigued by some of

627
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: this stuff, but then I kind of was like, I

628
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: think you're also just a jerk that you're pretending you're

629
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: getting your jerk ry out by being like, oh, I'm dumb.

630
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: So I was like, I want to break up with you,

631
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: but now I am fully into whatever this other stuff

632
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: might be. So how do I find that? So I

633
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: did some googling. I found fat life, which is a

634
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: social media platform for kink kinky people, um, and I

635
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: started reaching out to people in Atlanta and was like, hey,

636
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: I'm new and you seem like a real person because

637
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: you have you know, friends, and you go to community

638
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: events in Atlanta and your parts of these groups and

639
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: so I like, I tried very carefully as a single

640
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: woman too identify people that seemed safe and um, I

641
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: could get references from before I actually went out and

642
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: met them. So I didn't get involved in the B

643
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: D S M or kink scene until maybe like October.

644
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: Obloski so I'm a little baby newbi kink and I

645
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: was dating a woman at the time who went to

646
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: the club and was like, I had this life changing

647
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: experience at this kink club and you should go. And

648
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, cool, let's go together. And she's like, no,

649
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be here for two months, but you

650
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: should go by yourself. And I was like, okay, cool,

651
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: I guess that's fine. Um. And so I went on

652
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: the Queer Women in Kink Night, which was really great

653
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: and I think the best way to get introduced as

654
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: a queer woman myself. UM. And I saw somebody tying

655
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: rope for the first time and I was in trance,

656
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: like I just could not take my eyes off of her,

657
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: and I sat there the whole night. Um. And then

658
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: like a sheepish, little like kid, I went up to

659
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: her and I was just like, I think you're amazing

660
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: and I don't know what you call what you're doing,

661
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: but I want to be able to do it and

662
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 1: I want to do it real well. Um. And she's like,

663
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,479
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're so sweet. This is blah blah blah.

664
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: This is how you get involved. And so from there

665
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: it's just kind of been a snowball avalanche of getting

666
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: into the kink world. I saw out, um some other

667
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: riggers or rope tops UM to see like what they

668
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: did and how they got into UM I guess their

669
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: particular kink and or proclivity for rope and then just

670
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: kind of like watch five hours of YouTube videos every

671
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: day and bought some rope and started tying myself UM.

672
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: And then as I got more involved in the king community,

673
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: I also developed an affinity for impact UM, which is

674
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: like basically getting hit or hitting other people with all

675
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: sorts of implements, so like wouldn't implements like a wooden

676
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: spoon or something fiberglass acrylic UM, also caning, which is

677
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: apparently like an old school form of punishment and like

678
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: boarding schools, private schools, and like, as I got older,

679
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: I was just like, this doesn't hurt, Like this is

680
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: actually kind of like oh stinky, like okay whatever, UM.

681
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: And then revisited it at the club and I was like,

682
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: oh no, I really like this, and I also really

683
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: want to do this to somebody else UM. And then

684
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: also UM, I consider myself a dominant which means that

685
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: I like to be the person that does things to

686
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: people UM. I have. I've been called a control freak,

687
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 1: and I would also um align with that term as well.

688
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: And so having somebody relinquished that control to me is

689
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: also a really big thing for me. Um And I thought,

690
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: well of it was weird at first, um in my

691
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: own like vanilla relationships, and then I found the Kink

692
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: Club and people like this is our normal, Like the

693
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: vanilla world is like our our like our Superman outfit,

694
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: like Kent is kink and then like, I don't know, yeah,

695
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: Superman is the vanilla stuff. So I think that's a

696
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: little bit. I'll probably expand upon other things that I'm

697
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: interested in. But okay, so your main your dominant in

698
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: the impact world as well as the the top because

699
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: we learned these phrases world in the rope world, I

700
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: would say yes, um And like even in my vanilla life,

701
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm a pretty dominant person. I'm also a four year

702
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: which means I like watching other people engage in their

703
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: particular kink. And I the first time that I went

704
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 1: to the club, or the first four or five times

705
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: I went to the club, I just watched. I just

706
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: watched everybody play, and I was like, oh yeah, I

707
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: like some of that are definitely not into that UM.

708
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: And after their scenes and after I felt like it

709
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: was an appropriate time. I just want up to ask

710
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: people questions. I think with the amount of tact and

711
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: common sense that you would approach anybody. UM. I don't know,

712
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: the common sense is a flower that grows often in

713
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 1: other people's gardens. But and also just to get a

714
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: little bit more candid, I wanted to be a sex

715
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: therapist for a really long time, so the fact that

716
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: kink existed and b D s M existed was never

717
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: foreign to me. I was just like, oh, other people

718
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: do that, you know UM. And I think the more

719
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: that I got to know people in the community and

720
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you also have this regular job in

721
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: this is something that you do on this side UM

722
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: was something that I think made it safer for me

723
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: to explore and to accept UM. And then just talking

724
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: to people at those munches about how it does or

725
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,959
Speaker 1: does not permeate their life or how they create those

726
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: boundaries was really big for me. And then participating like

727
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: really just going in asking somebody to be like, hey,

728
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: I've never tried this, would you mind giving me an introduction? UM?

729
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: And going from there and then doing more research talking

730
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: to more people, going to the club and two events,

731
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: and finally plucking up the courage to ask somebody that

732
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: knew better how I could get into it, or if

733
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: they'd be willing to talk to me and or let

734
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: me participate in a scene with them. So how did

735
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: you get into this world? This primal kink world? Um,

736
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: I want to use that word. It's been a few years,

737
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: maybe two or three. Anyway, So I was dating this

738
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: girl and she han't showed me out, and I was like,

739
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: I Like, she was telling me about an exploit with

740
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: floggers and using paddles, and I was like, oh, that

741
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: that sounds cool. Okay. So then I started talking about

742
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: there's therapists about and I was like, I really, I

743
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: think I enjoy hurting people because it's choking thing and

744
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: time people like just normal bed restraints, just really speaking

745
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: to me. Um, I say the road is like. She

746
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's b DS. I'm gonna for you

747
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: to a colleague who is a king specialist and she

748
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: was like, it's the whole world. I was like what.

749
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: So she sent me to a fat life when I

750
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: started scroll and I was like, oh, it's my life.

751
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,720
Speaker 1: So I just started going to events and talking to people,

752
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: and I was like, Okay, I think that anyone, any

753
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: single woman who's in the dating world right now, understand safety.

754
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: Like you're going to meet strangers from the internet and

755
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: it's normal. It's part of dating apps, it's part of

756
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 1: your life. You're going to meet strangers from the internet

757
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: that want to hurt you and tie you up, and

758
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: you're like, who, I'm into that too, But now it's

759
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: really like you need to be share your being safe.

760
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: So I had safety calls with friends. Um. You know,

761
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: there's different ways you can go about that. There's there's

762
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: different sort of stop gaps you can put in, but

763
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: you can never be safe. And I would add to um,

764
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: just advice that idn't tend to give people around this

765
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: stuff is just you know, trying to be patient with yourself.

766
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: You know, oftentimes when you discover a new avenue of

767
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: your sexuality can be so exciting. Like I know many

768
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: people who sex wasn't interesting too until they discovered kink,

769
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: and women who were just like I didn't understand what

770
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: the big deal was about. And I don't know, I

771
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 1: never I never enjoyed it once until I had discovered kink,

772
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: right and so then you realize that you're like, oh,

773
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: this is really exciting. And so that level of energy

774
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: does encourage sometimes people to make that decisions. And so UM,

775
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: I always try to, UM give people the advice of like,

776
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: take your time, build a network of friendships first. UM,

777
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: try to really ingrain yourself in the community in a

778
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: way that just like you would make friends in any

779
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: other community, you know, build some relationships with people who

780
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: don't want to have sex with you. Build some relationships

781
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: with people who have other longstanding relationships who seemed like

782
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: they have been around for a while. You know. Um

783
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: I marched into the b d s M club the

784
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: first night and stood there with my hands on my

785
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: hips and said, who's going to do b DSM to me?

786
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: You know? And like that was that was not the best, right.

787
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: I met someone who seemed like they knew what they

788
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: were doing, and like three weeks later, I was like, wow,

789
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: that was a terrible idea. But like, people go through

790
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 1: this thing and they call it frenzy a lot of

791
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: the time when they're first in the community, where um,

792
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: they just want to try all the things really fast,

793
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: and UM, there are some like truly tragic traumatic outcomes

794
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: from that sort of behavior, and I think both of

795
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: us were fairly fortunate and that we didn't have any

796
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: of those things. But like, I cannot tell you how

797
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: many young women enter into this community and you see

798
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: them three or four times and you never see them again,

799
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: and you don't know. You just don't know what happened,

800
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: and it's probably horrible, and the things that you do

801
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: here are not good. So I mean, like just like

802
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: any other subculture, UM, there are bad actors and there

803
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: are predators. UM. There are some really amazing people too, though,

804
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: but you have to evaluate that and you have to

805
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: be cautious and you have to use your brain like

806
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: you would in any other environment and maybe more right. So, yeah,

807
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: I think that's a great UM segue. You already gave

808
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: some examples on how to make it a safe practice.

809
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: Would there be any other things to a new person

810
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: that comes in and who are really really excited and

811
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: wants to try something new, how to really UM have

812
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: it almost like a checklist? Would you tell them how

813
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: to be thorough and understanding what they're coming into. I

814
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: would say, seek education around risk mitigation and negotiation, UM,

815
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: particularly as it pertains to rope bondage which is the

816
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: stuff that we mostly focus on when it comes to

817
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: play because, um, it's an incredibly risky type of play,

818
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: so it can cause permittent injury. UM, and it's it's

819
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: very edgy, and that there are there are regular and

820
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: consistent injuries that occur from this type of interaction. So UM,

821
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: we always say, like, know exactly what risks you're taking.

822
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: There are some books out there, there are people you

823
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: can talk to, there are really good resources out there

824
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: to figure out, like what level of risk are you

825
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: willing to take in order to have these experiences to

826
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: figure out what your risk profile is and know how

827
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: to communicate that to other people. If you are not

828
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: willing to incur an injury that could keep you from

829
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: being able to do your job for six months, there

830
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: are certain things you do not want to do, and

831
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: you have to know how to say no to that, um,

832
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: and then know how to negotiate for yourself. I was

833
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: gonna say negotiations are key that I would tell anyone

834
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: coming into the community. I started negotiating by being like, oh,

835
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: these are my hard limits. And they were silly hard

836
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: limits that as a new person I didn't know. I

837
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: was like, don't spit in my face. I don't I

838
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: don't want that, and otherwise I'm good to go. But

839
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: I could take a chainsaw to your neck or something.

840
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: And so in one of my early impact scenes within

841
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: an impact is if you're like getting hit with canes

842
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 1: and hands and other implements, um, like spanking plus spanking plus.

843
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: So one of my early scenes doing that, you know,

844
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: I said, this is my hard limit. And he was like, well,

845
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: do you have you ever done anything like wrestling beforehand,

846
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: like a takedown scene, And I was like, no, no,

847
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: that sounds great. I'm interested. So we were trying this

848
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: takedown scene and he just suck or punched me in

849
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: the stomach and knocked the wind out of me completely

850
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: and I couldn't breathe and I was freaking out. And

851
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you didn't tell me I couldn't

852
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: punch you. That wasn't one of your hard limits. And

853
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: I was like, I did not know that that was

854
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: something that needed to be negotiating, um. And so you know,

855
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: I learned real fast that one of the better ways

856
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: to negotiate, or in my opinion for me, what works

857
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: better for me is to negotiate inclusively to so to

858
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: say this is allowed, this is loud, this is allowed,

859
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: this is loud, and like those are the things that

860
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: are allowed. Um, and if someone wants to add something

861
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: in in the middle of the scene, So it probably

862
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: would depend on who the person was. Sometimes I could

863
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: do in scene negotiations, and sometimes I would be like, no,

864
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: you're new. I don't want to do that because your

865
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: mental facilities also can be really impacted during a scene

866
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: and or having doorphins going crazy in your brain and

867
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: you're not quite all the way there, So um, it's

868
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: better to negotiate upfront. So is this something that's just

869
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: spoken or is it actually written out? Different people do

870
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: it in different ways. I think, Um, I tend to so.

871
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, when you have an established relationship with someone,

872
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: this changes, you know. I think if if Sammy and

873
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: I were going to do rope together, I would be like,

874
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: how's your body? Everything normal, let's go, you know, like

875
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: that's kind of how that would work. But in general

876
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: I think that it would be more like, um, you know,

877
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: if it was someone new, I might like text message

878
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: with them for a couple of days or but I

879
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: usually start with a conversation with like, so, you know,

880
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: how do you like to feel in rope? What are

881
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: what kind of experiences are you interested in having? And

882
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: you can usually tell from there if there's going to

883
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: be overlap, Like I just want to see, like what's

884
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: the interest overlap? Right? Um. And one thing I think

885
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: that's important that people don't always realize is like it

886
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: can still be a good negotiation if if you determine

887
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't do this thing right, you know, especially

888
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: when you're pople are very new and eager, like they're

889
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: just like, oh well, I'll just do whatever you But

890
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: like having a bad experience with someone is like so

891
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: much worse than just not doing it, you know. So

892
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: I think that's a good negotiation point to um. But yeah,

893
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: so you can negotiate in whatever way it works best

894
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: for you. Sure. I have a friend who does like

895
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: a thorough chucklist with every single person as like cover

896
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: their ass sort of methodology. Um, And it's very strange

897
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: and interesting, but it's a little wrote for me. But like,

898
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: everyone has their own styles. So I don't mind newing

899
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: impact with a new person, because the worst thing that's

900
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: happened is they're going to hit me in a place

901
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: that doesn't feel particularly great, like it's not doesn't have

902
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: the cushion but with rope, Like Lily was saying, you know,

903
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: you can you can have nerve injury, and you can

904
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 1: have risk drop and like loose function of your wrist

905
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: for an hour or a year. Um, you can have

906
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: the same thing with your foot. Like they're they're true

907
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: risks to it that are could be life changing. So

908
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: you know it's I can't stress enough how important it

909
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: is to go slow and make sure that you're you

910
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: know what you're getting into. I think it's also like

911
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: if we're going to be really honest, I think also

912
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: just my purview of interacting with other people in sex

913
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: adjacent kind of things has put my guard up. I'm

914
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: also a very assertive person, and so I'm not the

915
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: type of person that's gonna let somebody kind of boss

916
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: me around. Like I said, I'm a control freak, Like

917
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: I need to have specific things in place that make

918
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: me feel comfortable, and then if something uncomfortable was happening,

919
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: I would have the wherewithal to be like, actually, I

920
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 1: have a picture of your license. I told my boyfriend

921
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: where I was going to be tonight. He has your address,

922
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 1: he knows what your government name is so if anything

923
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: goes left, just know like you will be find out.

924
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: Like you'll be found out. Um. And that's not to

925
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: say that even people that do take those UM measures

926
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: cannot have those kind of experiences. You know, people who

927
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: want to hurt people or be awful will be awful. UM.

928
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I really appreciated, especially

929
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: in my first foray into the community, was they were like,

930
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: this particular community and this space is very consent heavy.

931
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: So even if you want to hug from somebody, you

932
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: need to ask them first, because bodily autonomy is also

933
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: something that they're very big on. It's like if you

934
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: start a scene and you get uncomfortable and you call red,

935
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: which is like the universal UM safe word for dungeons,

936
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: They're like, you stop immediately. There is no like um

937
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: I think she said red, Like I'm just gonna keep going.

938
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: It's like if we hear anything, it's done. UM. And

939
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of women, learning the fact

940
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 1: that they have bodily autonomy and or the right to

941
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: say no to things is a foreign concept, um, just

942
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: because of how people are socialized, how women are regarded UM.

943
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: And so in this space, I feel empowered as a woman,

944
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: as a person, and as somebody that respects the right

945
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: that like a people also acknowledge my like my agency

946
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: and things that have to do with my body and

947
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: how I'm interacting with a space. So the dungeon that

948
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: I'm referring to is specifically a place that caters to

949
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: the b D, S, M and kink lifestyle in which

950
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: they have implements, furniture, and spaces that are conducive to

951
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: UM people playing or taking part in a scene. UM.

952
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: Dungeons could also be a space that you create in

953
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: your own home for that UM I'm talking about it.

954
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: I think I think the proper term would be social dungeon,

955
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: where there are areas for people to kind of just

956
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: like communicate outside of playing UM. And then there's a

957
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: big space with some subspaces that have like I don't know,

958
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:47,240
Speaker 1: spanking benches and tables where you can do specific kinks

959
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: or themed rooms for other things. UM. So dungeon is

960
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: not you know, like a bloody like claw marks wall

961
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: where like there's bodies hanging from the ceiling, but as

962
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 1: space where UM, kinky people go to engage in kinky

963
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: things in a safe way. One of the other things

964
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: that I really love about the dungeon that we're at

965
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: is that they have education classes at this dungeon. UM

966
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: there are different groups that put on education courses. So

967
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: there was literally like a B D. S. M one

968
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: O one class. There was a negotiations class. There was

969
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: a UM like I don't know, a breakup in the

970
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: poly community, like who gets the toys? Who gets the

971
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: munch is the kind of thing you know, UM, And

972
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: so in those places they give you a lot of

973
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: good resources and or like gestalts for what those things

974
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: look like. And for negotiation, it really is just kind

975
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:42,479
Speaker 1: of a preplay conversation where the things you talk about

976
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: are rather salient, but they are also dynamics. So while

977
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: you play this way the first time, maybe after the

978
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: seeing you debrief and something needs to be changed, UM,

979
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: you record it. So personally, for me, when I'm negotiating scenes,

980
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,439
Speaker 1: I have a little book with the person's like name,

981
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: and then I run through um any prior injuries that

982
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:05,919
Speaker 1: they may have had, places that they do not want

983
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: to be touched, words or phrases that are triggers for them,

984
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 1: UM like what they want out of the situation, what

985
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: I am willing and not willing to do in that situation, um,

986
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: and then leave time for them at the end to

987
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: kind of tell me how they think the scene went,

988
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: if there were any places where I miss stepped or

989
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: did something that they hadn't um thought to say before,

990
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: and then we amend that. And that's more specifically if

991
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: I think we're going to continue to play together, but

992
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: also just because I want people to have a chance

993
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: to say to me in it like a safe way

994
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: what they did or did not enjoy about our play together,

995
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: even if it's not going to happen again, because I

996
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: think that every experience that you have with somebody is

997
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: a learning experience. And I also want them to have

998
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: a good opinion of like how seriously I take the

999
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: fact that they were willing to give me that opportunity,

1000
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, um, even though they asked me to do

1001
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: something to them. I so feel like it's a point

1002
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: of not pride. I don't even know what the word

1003
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm looking for is, but the fact that they trusted

1004
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: me enough to put themselves in that vulnerable position is

1005
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: something that I need to honor um. And I think

1006
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: that that's what most negotiations are about, or at least

1007
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: the crux of them is like, I want to make

1008
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: sure that the things that we agreed upon will make

1009
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: sure that this is a great like a good situation

1010
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: or as good as we can make it until we

1011
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: get in and learn each other more. So. Yeah, And

1012
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: those negotiations can change depending on what type of play

1013
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: you're doing as well. They can be more in depth, um,

1014
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: like if it's a partnership or an ownership as opposed

1015
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: to pick up play. I think that can also change

1016
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: how the negotiations go. Pick up plays exactly what you

1017
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: think it is. It's like, hey, you have a whip. Uh,

1018
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: I want to get whipped? So like how do they? Yeah,

1019
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: I see what you've gotten there, Like I'm interested. I

1020
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:52,919
Speaker 1: don't really know, but like maybe give me a little

1021
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: taste of this and then maybe after that They're like,

1022
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: I would like to be your partner in this kind

1023
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: of play. Let's negotiate what that's going to lik like

1024
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: moving forward. And there are all different types of frequencies

1025
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: and timelines and their nuances on nuances. So so when

1026
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: you're doing splashing and follows the chase and capture, does

1027
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: it's follow the same guidelines of negotiations? Yes, everything everything

1028
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 1: in negotiations and it's hurt. It's more inclusive now because

1029
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: it's a hard, harder language to talk about all the

1030
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: things you don't want to do sometimes that you don't

1031
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: know what you don't want to do? Is that the

1032
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: way you do negotiations well as well? Yeah? I do

1033
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: normally start off like what are your heart and soft limits?

1034
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: It's like an absolute no, what are you willing to try?

1035
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 1: And if I like have an idea of where I'm

1036
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: trying to go out, so okay, well I can put

1037
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: it in your head. Like when we was doing splashing,

1038
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, you're gonna have basy food on it.

1039
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: Can I put slime? Like? Can I open it thing

1040
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: up and just support a bucket of slime in there?

1041
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: Can I put it in your back? Can I kick you?

1042
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: M I want to like just side kick you in

1043
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: your chest with a whole bunch of slab and just

1044
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: watch it. Is that? Okay? Yeah? That brings us to

1045
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: the end of our interviews in this episode on Kink

1046
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: and B D s M. We do have another episode

1047
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: related forthcoming forming, so look for that. And I think

1048
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 1: one point, I just want to drive home, even though

1049
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: I think we drive it home. A ton of interview right,

1050
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: concerns this whole communicative ability to consent and understand how

1051
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: to protect one another as a community, as well as

1052
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: knowing your own limits and your own non limits. Well,

1053
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: we hope that people listening learned as much as we did,

1054
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: and we are really grateful for all of our interviewees.

1055
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: And if those who are wondering and want to ask

1056
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 1: more questions and try to find a community of their own,

1057
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 1: they did talk about fat life, Apparently that is the

1058
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: one to go to just to keep you guys safe, right,

1059
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: and um, we we would love to hear from any

1060
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: listeners involved in this world are interested in becoming involved

1061
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: in this world maybe. Uh. I'm always just like, have

1062
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: you written anything about this round? You have a different

1063
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: take that we would love to know about. Absolutely. You

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Speaker 1: can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart

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Speaker 1: media dot com. You can find us on Instagram as

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Speaker 1: stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom

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Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard.

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Speaker 1: Way to go, Andrew, and thanks to you for listening

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Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You. The protection of I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radios How Stuff Works For more podcasts from iHeart Radio

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite show.