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Speaker 1: On May eleventh, nineteen ninety two, Marilyn Malara was with

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Speaker 1: a group of people mourning a friend who had recently

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Speaker 1: been killed by the Latin Kings. The group split up,

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Speaker 1: and Marilyn went out with a friend and another mourner

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Speaker 1: who they both had met that night, Jackie Montanez, who

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Speaker 1: had her own sordid history with that gang. At around midnight,

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Speaker 1: the three were driving near Humboldt Park when two guys

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Speaker 1: who knew Jackie called out to her at a light.

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Speaker 1: They all agreed to meet in the park to hang out.

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Speaker 1: It turned out that these two men were members of

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Speaker 1: the Latin Kings. Jackie lured one of them into the

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Speaker 1: bathroom to make out, and when he stopped to urinate,

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Speaker 1: she shot him in the back of the head. When

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Speaker 1: she emerged alone, the other man asked about his friend,

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Speaker 1: and Jackie shot him too. Marilyn and her friend were

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Speaker 1: caught completely unaware and panicked. They fled the scene. Then

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Speaker 1: the case fell into the hands of two of Chicago's

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Speaker 1: now most infamous detectives, who used incentivized snitches, false eyewitness testimony,

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Speaker 1: and coercive interrogation tactics to pull Marilyn and her friend

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Speaker 1: into a case that should have rested squarely on Jackie

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Speaker 1: mount and as his shoulders, then Marilyn's hired attorney inexplicably

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Speaker 1: advised her to plead guilty while getting nothing in return

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Speaker 1: from the prosecutors, sending her directly to death row. News

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Speaker 1: of this case would reach then twenty nine year old

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Speaker 1: law professor Justin Brooks, and it drove him to uproot

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Speaker 1: his life and begin a two and a half decade

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Speaker 1: long quest to expose the misdeeds of those detectives and

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Speaker 1: have the evidence of Marilyn's innocence finally heard. She was

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Speaker 1: released on April eighth, twenty twenty. This is Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: with Jason Blom Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 1: Today we have an episode for you that is deeply

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Speaker 1: person to me, but it's even more personal to our

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Speaker 1: second guest today, Justin Brooks. He is the founder and

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Speaker 1: director of the California Innocence Project. Justin Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Always the pleasure, Chason, thank you, And I'm

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Speaker 1: about to introduce one of the most extraordinary people and

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Speaker 1: stories that I've ever met or heard. And when I

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Speaker 1: say that Marilyn Malaro, who I'm going to introduce in

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Speaker 1: a second was sentenced to death in the nineties in

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Speaker 1: Illinois after pleading guilty to a crime she didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: So her attorney did such a terrible job that he

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Speaker 1: actually resigned from the bar after the trial and became

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Speaker 1: a priest. Marilyn, I'm so sorry that you have to

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Speaker 1: be here because of what you went through, but I'm

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Speaker 1: so happy you're here, So welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So this whole insane story began around midnight on May

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Speaker 1: eleventh and into May twelfth, nineteen ninety two, when two

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Speaker 1: members of the Latin Kings were shot and killed in

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Speaker 1: and around a bathroom in Chicago's Humble Park. But Maryland,

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Speaker 1: I want to go back even before that, you were

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Speaker 1: just twenty one years old. What was your life like

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Speaker 1: before all of this happened.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was a mother of two. I used to

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Speaker 2: work two jobs, live with my brother. I sold drugs

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Speaker 2: at the time to help pay for the bills. I mean,

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Speaker 2: a single woman of mother too. Was very difficult to

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Speaker 2: pay for bills on your own, so I had to

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Speaker 2: choose another method to bring some sort of income, and

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Speaker 2: stelling marijuana and concaine was one of them.

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Speaker 1: So you really had three jobs, two legal ones and

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Speaker 1: one in the shadows. But no judgment here. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a religious person, but let them who was without sincast

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Speaker 1: the first stone and Justin, can you take us back

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Speaker 1: to what happened and how the hell they decided to

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Speaker 1: focus on an innocent woman when in fact they could

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Speaker 1: have and probably did know all along who the real

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Speaker 1: perpetrator was of this awful crime. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, I mean, this case, Jason, and we can get

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Speaker 3: into each one of these elements as we go along,

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Speaker 3: involved every cause of wrongful conviction that you discussed on

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Speaker 3: this podcast. This case involved a false confession, false informant testimony,

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Speaker 3: a bad identification, a bad lawyer, bad judges, and bad cops.

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Speaker 3: So pretty much all the causes of wrongful conviction occurred together.

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Speaker 3: It was the perfect storm which led Maryland to spend

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Speaker 3: twenty seven years in prison for a crime she didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: This case was such an insane injustice that it actually

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Speaker 1: led you to give up your life as you knew

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Speaker 1: it and found an innocence project. Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this case changed my life. I had heard about it.

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Speaker 3: I was at the time in Michigan teaching law school,

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Speaker 3: and I read in the newspaper about this young woman,

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Speaker 3: Marilyn Molara, who'd been sentenced to death on a plea bargain.

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Speaker 3: And when I read that, I thought, how could she

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Speaker 3: possibly been sentenced to death on a plea bargain. It's

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Speaker 3: a plea, but it's certainly not a bargain, and you

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Speaker 3: know there's supposed to be some kind of negotiated result

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Speaker 3: where you get a lesser sentence as a result of

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Speaker 3: you giving up all the rights that you have to

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Speaker 3: give up in a plea agreement, and you're giving up

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Speaker 3: your right to trial, you're giving up a lot of

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Speaker 3: your ap pellet rights, and you know you're going directly

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Speaker 3: to jail. And with her, she went directly to death row.

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Speaker 3: And I was so shocked by it that I've found

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Speaker 3: out more about her case. I ended up meeting with

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Speaker 3: her on death row. She was a scheduled for execution,

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Speaker 3: and I remember the day vividly, one twenty five years ago,

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Speaker 3: sitting across from Maryland and saying, how did you end

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Speaker 3: up here? And she told me this remarkable story about

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Speaker 3: how this lawyer who had never handled a case like

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Speaker 3: this in the past had no training on death penalty litigation,

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Speaker 3: never negotiated anything with the prosecution, pled her straight up

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Speaker 3: to the homicide case, and the result was she was

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Speaker 3: sentenced to death. And then she said the most amazing thing,

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Speaker 3: which is and I'm innocent. And so I went back

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Speaker 3: to the law school where I was teaching, and I

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Speaker 3: told my students her story, and I said, you know

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Speaker 3: who wants to help me out on this case? And

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Speaker 3: four brave souls raised their hands, and we started investigating it,

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Speaker 3: and everywhere we looked, we found out that she was

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Speaker 3: innocent and that her case was a complete fabrication.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you know, when you first told me about

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Speaker 1: this case, or however I learned about it, I became

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Speaker 1: obsessed with it as well, and kept me up many nights,

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Speaker 1: and I was so thrilled when it finally resolved. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was nice for you and I'd have something else

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Okay, So let's go back to May eleventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two. Maryland's out driving around with Jackie Montez

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Speaker 1: and another friend around midnight or something, the night before

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Speaker 1: a mutual friend's funeral who had been killed by the

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Speaker 1: Latin Kings. They were near Humboldt Park, and they had

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Speaker 1: two guys who knew Jackie, Jimmy Cruz and Hector Reyes.

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Speaker 3: You know, these guys saw these three girls and they

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Speaker 3: started chatting at the light, and all three women went

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Speaker 3: to Humboldt Park with these two guys who remembers the

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Speaker 3: Latin King. Jackie went into the bathroom with one of

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Speaker 3: the men. They were making out in the bathroom. He

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Speaker 3: turned around to urinate, and she pulled a gun out

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Speaker 3: and shot him in the back of the head. She

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Speaker 3: then leaves the bathroom. And then there's two stories. The

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Speaker 3: story that convicted Marylyn, which we ultimately proved to be false,

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Speaker 3: was that Jackie walked over handed the gun to Maryland

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Speaker 3: and then she shot the second victim. What we now

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Speaker 3: know happened was Jackie came out of the bathroom, the

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Speaker 3: other guy said, you know, where's my homeboy? She makes

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Speaker 3: a joke about it. She laughs and says he's taken

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Speaker 3: a shit. He turns around, and she walks over and

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Speaker 3: shoots him in the back of the head in the

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Speaker 3: exact same manner.

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Speaker 1: Wait, so I have a couple of questions, but let's

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Speaker 1: just start with this. How did they all not hear

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Speaker 1: the gunshot from inside the bathroom.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we actually had at former homicide detective go to

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Speaker 3: the park because I never understood why the guy outside

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be fully alerted to what happened. But apparently because

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Speaker 3: it was a low caliber bullet and it was a

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Speaker 3: contact killing, meaning the gun was actually on the back

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Speaker 3: of his head. His head actually acted as a sort

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Speaker 3: of silencer, so there wasn't a lot of noise, even

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Speaker 3: though it was a tiled bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Do we know why Jackie did what she did?

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Speaker 3: So? What Jackie has has said over the years is

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Speaker 3: her motivation was a friend of theirs was killed by

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Speaker 3: the Latin Kings, But there's also been a lot of

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Speaker 3: talk about that she was doing it to rise up

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Speaker 3: in the gang, to be seen as someone who would

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Speaker 3: do something like this.

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Speaker 1: So what did Marilyn do when the shooting happened.

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Speaker 3: Well, Marilyn and the other girl are in shock, they

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Speaker 3: see what happened, They run, and of course you know

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Speaker 3: when you run, it's going to be equated to guilt.

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Speaker 3: Neither Marilyn nor her other friend knew what Jackie Mantins

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Speaker 3: was up to that night, and then ultimately they're arrested

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Speaker 3: walking out of this funeral that we've been talking about

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Speaker 3: for their friend who'd been killed by the Latin Kings.

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Speaker 1: And Marylyn, can you give us just from your perspective.

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Speaker 1: So here you were a mother of two, you're snatched

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Speaker 1: off the street after this funeral, and you and fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old Jackie Mount and as the woman, the girl

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Speaker 1: really who actually committed this crime, were brought down to

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Speaker 1: the Latin Kings and detective I can believe they did this,

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Speaker 1: and detectives tell them, quote unquote, these are the two

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Speaker 1: girls that killed your homeboys, which put you at immediate

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Speaker 1: and grave risk. It threatens to make your kids into orphans.

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Speaker 1: And then the cops bring you down to the station,

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Speaker 1: deny you legal representation, interrogate you for around twenty hours

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Speaker 1: without any sleep, and ultimately you signed a statement that

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Speaker 1: they had prepared.

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Speaker 2: It was a terrible moment. We had just left the funeral.

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Speaker 2: The detectives just came straight and arrested Montanesse and myself.

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Speaker 2: Then they parked. They received a phone call. Once they

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Speaker 2: hung up with the phone call, they took us to

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Speaker 2: Humble Park. We sat there for like a good ten

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Speaker 2: minutes and they were questioning us. I did not answer anything.

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Speaker 2: After the ten minutes, they took us to the beach

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Speaker 2: in Spalding. They displayed us before the Latin Kings, and.

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Speaker 1: That must have been terrifying in and of itself.

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Speaker 2: At that moment, all I thought it was my ending

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Speaker 2: was right there. You know, somebody's going to pull the

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Speaker 2: trigger and kill us both. Then they took us to

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Speaker 2: Grant and Central, placed us in separate rooms, and from

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Speaker 2: then on that's where the interrogation began. They took turns

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Speaker 2: Detective GUERVERA. Halverson and kept questioning me over and over,

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Speaker 2: trying to get me to admit that I've committed one

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Speaker 2: of the crimes, which I kept telling them I did not.

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Speaker 2: So the interrogation kept going back and forth between Guevara

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Speaker 2: and Halverson. They wanted me to say something that I

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Speaker 2: could not say. You know, they wanted me to lie,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't want to lie, but they kept pressuring

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Speaker 2: me and pressuring me, and it's just, you know, it

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Speaker 2: becomes to where you're like, what the hell, Just leave

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Speaker 2: me the hell alone. And you know, I spent time

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Speaker 2: just crying, and it was like they didn't care. It's

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Speaker 2: they didn't care about the tears. They didn't care about

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Speaker 2: how I felt. They didn't care about, you know, how

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Speaker 2: they were pressuring me, you know, and so mentally, emotionally,

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Speaker 2: and physically, it was very draining.

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Speaker 1: So justin why was Marilyn in their sights and how

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Speaker 1: did they come to focus on her?

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Speaker 3: So this case started for Marilyn with a combination of

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Speaker 3: some corrupt detectives detective Guevara and Halverson, who, by the way,

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Speaker 3: have been linked to now dozens of exonerations in Chicago

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Speaker 3: and more than fifty million dollars in settlements for wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 3: So you have a couple of corrupt detectives and a

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Speaker 3: snitch who's just making stuff up and gave three separate

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Speaker 3: statements that kept changing in order for them to be

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Speaker 3: consistent with the detective's story. And it started with her

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Speaker 3: saying that Jackie Martinez had been bragging about these killings.

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Speaker 3: Then once they got Marilyn into the mix, then she

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Speaker 3: changed the story and said that Jackie just took credit

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Speaker 3: for one of the murders. And then once they got

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Speaker 3: a confession out of Maryland, after keeping her for nearly

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours in custody and keeping her up all night,

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Speaker 3: then they built this news story where Now, this snitch

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Speaker 3: claims to have seen these girls before the shooting and

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Speaker 3: had said that they were going to go do the

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Speaker 3: shooting in gang vernacular, which was that apparently they said,

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Speaker 3: We're going to roll on some flakes. And by the way,

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Speaker 3: this snitch had been charged with a drug crime that night,

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Speaker 3: which of course was later on dropped after they used

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Speaker 3: her testimony. And all this was to build in the

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Speaker 3: evidence they needed to make their case, and they were

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Speaker 3: just literally just making up their case as they went along.

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Speaker 3: So it started with corrupt detectives and a snitch and

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Speaker 3: then it went downhill from there.

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Speaker 1: Now, Marylyn, you've now gone through this unbelievable ordeal, no sleep,

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Speaker 1: twenty something hours in the police station, and you signed

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Speaker 1: a statement prepared by the police. At that point you

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Speaker 1: probably would have signed anything to make this torture stop, right,

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Speaker 1: But did you understand what this meant? I mean, you

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Speaker 1: were implicating yourself in both murders, one is a shooter

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Speaker 1: and the other as a conspirator.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, that was not explained to me at that point,

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Speaker 2: and at that time I did not know the difference.

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Speaker 2: You know, when they're telling you, well, if you want

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Speaker 2: to grow old and see your kids, and this is

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Speaker 2: your best bet that you take the blame from one

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Speaker 2: of the murders, and Jackie Monteness will take the blame

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Speaker 2: for the other. So it's like they leave you with

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Speaker 2: no choice because you're going to put your children's before anything.

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Speaker 2: So I just went ahead and signed that statement.

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Speaker 1: And of course there's more insanity coming our way, right,

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Speaker 1: because there's a witness who ends up testifying to seeing

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Speaker 1: the murders from her apartment window, even though we find

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Speaker 1: out later, right, I guess justin your investigation on covers

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Speaker 1: some interesting things about that.

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Speaker 3: Sure, so after they use this snitch testimony to get

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Speaker 3: to Maryland, they now have to build the case up.

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Speaker 3: And this woman claimed to see the shooting from her apartment.

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Speaker 3: And the first weekend I was working on this case,

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Speaker 3: I drove to Chicago with my students and stood right

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Speaker 3: in front of her apartment building. And it was crazy

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Speaker 3: because all you had to do is go to the

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Speaker 3: park to realize that she was lying. And when I

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Speaker 3: measured it off, the distance between her apartment and the

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Speaker 3: bathroom where the shooting occurred in front of it was

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Speaker 3: four hundred and eighty nine feet. And she claimed at

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Speaker 3: night in the dark with hardly any lighting. She saw

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Speaker 3: Jackie hand this gun to Marylyn and do this shooting. Now,

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Speaker 3: this is like saying you were sitting in a football

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Speaker 3: stadium behind one end zone in the dark, and you

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Speaker 3: saw someone hand somebody a hot dog behind the opposite

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Speaker 3: end zone.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take your analogy one step further because

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Speaker 1: four hundred and eighty nine feet is closer to two

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Speaker 1: football fields, and it's dark, and there was foliage in

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Speaker 1: the way, right, So I mean, they don't even have

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Speaker 1: that in a football state. I've never seen one with foliage.

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Speaker 1: So there you go with your law students that it

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Speaker 1: takes you five minutes to realized that this whole thing

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Speaker 1: is complete horseshit.

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Speaker 3: It was factually impossible for her to see what she said,

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Speaker 3: and nobody investigated it. Now when we finally tracked her down. Coincidentally,

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Speaker 3: the one person who said they saw this shooting, the

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Speaker 3: one person in the city of Chicago, was in a

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Speaker 3: relationship with one of the victims, and none of that

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Speaker 3: stuff was ever reported or investigated. So that's the bad

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Speaker 3: identification portion of this case. So now we have bad cops,

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Speaker 3: bad snitch testimony, and bad identification.

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Speaker 1: And then there's this lawyer. This lawyer in quotes Jeremiah Lynch.

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Speaker 3: So he was hired to represent Maryland. There were friends

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Speaker 3: who hired him. He was paid a retainer. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if he capitulated his role in this case because

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Speaker 3: he figured there was no more money coming, so why

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Speaker 3: not just plea this out? You know, a death penalty

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Speaker 3: cases takes a lot of time and energy and doing

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Speaker 3: a trial very expensive and time consuming. But he took

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Speaker 3: this ten thousand dollars retainer and as a result, he

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Speaker 3: had a couple of meetings with Maryland, short meetings, and

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Speaker 3: he didn't meet with the district attorney, and he didn't

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Speaker 3: go to the crime scene, even though later on when

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Speaker 3: he was questioned he wasn't that far away his office

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Speaker 3: from the crime scene, and he'd claimed that maybe he

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Speaker 3: jogged by there one time. Just basic stuff wasn't done

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Speaker 3: and he had no training in this, and this was

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Speaker 3: his final case as a lawyer. After Marylyn was sentenced

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Speaker 3: to death. He actually went, you know, took off out

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Speaker 3: of the courtroom. And it took me a year to

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Speaker 3: find him. And usually lawyers are easy to find. And

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Speaker 3: when I found him, he was studying to be a

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Speaker 3: priest at University of Detroit, and he now is a

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Speaker 3: Catholic priest. And you know, if this was a movie,

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Speaker 3: we'd have to change his name because it would be

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Speaker 3: too corny that his name was father Lynch. And he

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Speaker 3: literally did Lynch Marylynd in this case due to his accompetence.

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Speaker 1: The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode

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Speaker 1: and of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and

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Speaker 1: tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re

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Speaker 1: enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving

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Speaker 1: the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily

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Speaker 1: to helping young people and students. For more information on

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Speaker 1: the work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program,

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Speaker 1: visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the Lastmile dot org. This

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Speaker 1: episode is sponsored by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 1: and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a leading international

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Speaker 1: law firm. The AIG Pro Bono program provides free legal

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Speaker 1: services and other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals

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Speaker 1: most in need, and recently they announced that working to

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Speaker 1: reform the criminal justice system will become a key pillar

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Speaker 1: of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has long had an

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Speaker 1: unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance to

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable members of our society and in support

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Speaker 1: of the public interest, including extensive work in the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice area. So Marilyn's lawyer, this ex lawyer who's now

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Speaker 1: a priest, gave her terrible and that's not even strong

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Speaker 1: en forward counsel, because when you plead guilty, there's almost

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Speaker 1: always some sort of a deal made and leniency given.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, there was no deal on the table,

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Speaker 1: so she doesn't even get a trial. And on top

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Speaker 1: of that, her right to present evidence of innocence at

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Speaker 1: that time and into the appellate process had been waived,

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Speaker 1: so she went straight to a sentencing hearing in front

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Speaker 1: of a jury, and it's just the process cution telling

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Speaker 1: twelve normal everyday people what a terrible, violent, evil person

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Speaker 1: she is.

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Speaker 3: And then there's the question of whether she gets death

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Speaker 3: or whether she gets life in prison. Now the reason

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Speaker 3: is so incompetent. It's because you could at least make

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Speaker 3: an argument if the sentencing was being done by a judge,

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Speaker 3: that the judge had sort of off the record indicated

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Speaker 3: this isn't going to be a death case. But when

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Speaker 3: it's a jury, you have no assurances of anything. So

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Speaker 3: the jury now gets to hear everything that the prosecution

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Speaker 3: wants to put on, crime scene photos of dead bodies,

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Speaker 3: testimony from the victim's family, all these things in the

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Speaker 3: sentencing phase of a death case, and Marilyn ends up

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Speaker 3: getting sentenced to death.

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Speaker 1: And it's worth noting that Illinois, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: long ago, it was more than ten years ago, there

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Speaker 1: was a professor at Northwestern who assigned his students to

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Speaker 1: find innocent people on death row. And the student's eleven

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Speaker 1: innocent people on death row students, by the way, and

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Speaker 1: at that point Governor Ryan at the end of his term,

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Speaker 1: commuted the death sentences of everyone on death row in

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Speaker 1: Illinois because he realized that I think during his term

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Speaker 1: they'd executed ten people, and here these students had found

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Speaker 1: eleven innocent ones. So his you know, they weren't even

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Speaker 1: batting five hundred, even if they got it right on

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Speaker 1: the ones they executed, and it's extremely unlikely that they

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Speaker 1: didn't execute some innocent people along the way, so you know,

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Speaker 1: they were maybe getting it right. About three out of

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Speaker 1: ten times, and we're talking about the death penalty for

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Speaker 1: christ sakes, So Marilyn, can you give us some insight

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Speaker 1: into what it was like on death row as a

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Speaker 1: young mother now separated from her children, thrown into this

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Speaker 1: twilight zone nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Well, when I first arrived to Dwight, and I was

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Speaker 2: taken to Cottage fifteen where it's basically segregation, and they

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Speaker 2: have a wing where they held the defro inmates, and

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Speaker 2: it's basically glass where segregation inmates can see the defro inmates.

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Speaker 2: And they put me past that glass into a cell

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Speaker 2: and I went in the room. They had brought me

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Speaker 2: some boxes with clothing, all my beddings and everything that's

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Speaker 2: required from the institution to give to you, and wouldn't

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Speaker 2: make my bed. I just sat there and started praying,

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Speaker 2: and I just kept praying and praying, got on my

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Speaker 2: knees and I'm like, Lord, just take the rings, whatever

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Speaker 2: you know, whatever you want me to do, I'm here

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Speaker 2: and I'm gonna do it. You know, Just let me

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Speaker 2: be at ease, let me be at peace, let me

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Speaker 2: be right by you, and let me get through this

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Speaker 2: as fast as I can. You know, it was a

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Speaker 2: beginning of a new start for me, away from everybody

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Speaker 2: and getting to know new people. And the officer came

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Speaker 2: back and saw me praying and kind of disturbed me.

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Speaker 2: It's like, hey, miss Malero, would you like the chuckhole open?

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, sure, left the chuck hole open. The

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Speaker 2: girls came by, introduced them self to me, and they

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Speaker 2: sat there and they pray with me, you know, through

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Speaker 2: the chuck ho and so, you know, it was like

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Speaker 2: an experience being back there on death Ro. I try

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Speaker 2: to stay as active as I possibly could back there.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're not allowed to be with other offenders,

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Speaker 2: but the people they were back there, so we had

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Speaker 2: moments to where we were able to come out at

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Speaker 2: hour at a time or two people at a time.

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed it for the most part, not that I

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Speaker 2: enjoyed being on death ro, but the way I was treated.

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Speaker 2: I was loved and cared for. I was tend to.

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Speaker 2: They would always constantly pray for me. We had lieutenants

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Speaker 2: and officers, you know, kind of stay back there with us,

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Speaker 2: keeping us company and praying with us. And because you

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Speaker 2: get to know these officers, if they're a part of you,

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Speaker 2: you know, they no longer become officers. You know, some

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Speaker 2: of them are compassionate and their heart goes out to

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Speaker 2: you and they try to spend as much time as

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Speaker 2: they positively can, you know, keeping you on a positive note.

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Speaker 2: And majority of the times I would stay in my

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Speaker 2: room and I would try to sleep my days away,

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Speaker 2: and the officer were like, miss Maler, get up, get up,

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Speaker 2: let's go, let's go to the yard or whatever, and

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Speaker 2: I would go just to you know, stay motivated. I

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Speaker 2: tried to do some schooling. I enrolled in myself for college.

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Speaker 2: Within three months, they came back and told us back

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Speaker 2: there that we were not worthy enough to take any

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Speaker 2: schooling because we were defro inmates. We were you know,

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Speaker 2: about to be executed. So they took the schooling from us.

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Speaker 2: And one of the ladies back there decided that, hey, okay,

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Speaker 2: so let's get some sponsors. Let's write the church and

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Speaker 2: see if they would you know, sponsor us and pay

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Speaker 2: for some schooling for us. And that's what we did.

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Speaker 2: We started writing several churches organizations to try to see

433
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: if we got sponsors. You know, I was blessed to

434
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: get two different spons to get some of my education.

435
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: You know, I have diploma certificates. Right now, I have

436
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 2: like four more modules left before I attain my sociate's

437
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: degree on theology. And it hasn't been easy. It's been

438
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 2: kind of a rough time in prison because prison's not

439
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: designed for you to be comfortable. It's designed for you

440
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: to be uncomfortable, for you to stay in trouble. But

441
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 2: it all determines on the individual in side and what

442
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 2: is it that you want to do and accomplish while

443
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: you're there. So I was determined to do the right thing,

444
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: not just by me, but for my children and my

445
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: family and for my attorneys who were fighting hard to

446
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: get my release. So I owed it to everybody, not

447
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: just myself. So I pretty much stayed busy trying to

448
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 2: stay focused on a positive note while I was there.

449
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: Do you think they knew you were innocent?

450
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: Yes, they did. They knew from the moment that I

451
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: got there, because before my arrival, Montanez was already at

452
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 2: Dwight Correctional Center and she was always bragging about, you know,

453
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: killing these guys, so they already knew that I was innocent.

454
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: And justin Jackie signed after Davids had admitted verbally numerous

455
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: times that she alone planned and executed the murders.

456
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: So these are the arguments that we made for years

457
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 3: and years and years, but the problem was no one

458
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 3: was willing to listen to them as long as that

459
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: police stood, and Marilyn never had an opportunity to present

460
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: this evidence in a trial.

461
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: So the process of how the hell this thing finally

462
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: unraveled itself, it took god a better part of two

463
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: and a half decades, really, right.

464
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, twenty five years I was working on it. I

465
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 3: mean when I started this case, to put it in context,

466
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 3: I was twenty nine and Marilyn was twenty four, and

467
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: now I'm fifty five, and I won't say how old

468
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: Marilyn is, but it's been a long journey. So now

469
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: that death sentence got reversed by the Illinois Supreme Court

470
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 3: because the prosecution got greedy in the sentencing phase and

471
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 3: in the prosecution's closing argument to the jury actually said,

472
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: you know, ladies and gentlemen, miss Malario filed emotion to

473
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 3: suppress her confession in this case, that show she has

474
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 3: no remorse, and that's another reason to sentence her to death. Now,

475
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 3: the problem with that argument is you're basically saying, because

476
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: somebody asserted a constitutional right, they should be executed based

477
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 3: on that, And when it went in front of the

478
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: Illinois Supreme Court, the ILLINOI Supreme Court ruled unanimously in

479
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 3: Marylyn's favor to reverse the death sentence, saying like, you

480
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 3: cannot use a constitutional right as an aggravating circumstance, and

481
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: also we don't even see a logical connection between a

482
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: lawyer filing emotion and then a person not having remorse.

483
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 3: So then we went back to a new sentencing. I

484
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: handled that sentencing along with the Chicago Public Defender's office.

485
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 3: I first tried to get in all the innocence evidence,

486
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: but it was very difficult because they didn't want to

487
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 3: hear it because they said, this isn't about whether she's

488
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 3: innocent or guilty, this is about whether she gets sentenced

489
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 3: to death. Because the court refused to withdraw her plea,

490
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 3: so Marilyn's always been stuck with this plea. She then

491
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: gets sentenced to natural life, which was the best case

492
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: scenario out of that proceeding, and then we start this

493
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: two decades long odyssey trying to get her out of

494
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: prison or get her a new trial. I took the

495
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: case up on appeal. From there, we went into federal court.

496
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: We argue the ineffective assistance a council Federal court. The

497
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: oral argument with it was really frustrating. One of the

498
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: justices kept saying, well, it was her decision to plead,

499
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: and I said, your honor, this is like going to

500
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: a doctor's office and they say you're going to be

501
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: dead in ten minutes if you don't have open heart

502
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: surgery and you're saying, okay. Your right to effective assistance

503
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: a council means getting good advice, and there was no

504
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: way this advice was good. But I lost petition, the

505
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: US Supreme Court, lost petition the Governor's office three separate

506
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: times for clemency. I file a petition in the United

507
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: Nations trying to declare Chicago's justice system as a human

508
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: rights violation where they allow people to plead guilty and

509
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: get death on a plea bargain. And due to all

510
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: the incompetence in this case, the United Nations has still

511
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: not ruled on that petition. So there's been a lot

512
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: of proceedings and ultimately the most successful one occurred just

513
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: a few months ago, and that was finally another petition

514
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: to the governor asking for her release, laying the case

515
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: out that evidence had never really seen the light of day.

516
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: It's madness. I mean, the idea that she was prevented

517
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: from presenting overwhelming evidence of innocence is not It's absolutely nuts.

518
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: It's a terrible indictment of our system. There should be

519
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 3: some mechanism for justice to see.

520
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,239
Speaker 1: The light of day. Of course, the last resort this

521
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: case was a clemency from the governor.

522
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: And by the way, it wasn't just me that petition

523
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: for that, it was the Exoneration Project, the Illinois Innocence Project.

524
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: As you said, there's been a lot of innocence work

525
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 3: in Chicago over the past few decades. There's a lot

526
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: of great lawyers and organizations. They're doing it.

527
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: I know, I called so many people trying to get

528
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: this on the governor's desk. That's probably people listening who

529
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: are like, oh, bomb, you bother to crap out of

530
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: me in this case for so long. But anyway, it

531
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, because the point is that it finally worked.

532
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: So Maryland, So October ninth of twenty nineteen, there's a

533
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: clemency hearing, and then there's a god almost seven months

534
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: go by, almost to the day until April sixth, twenty twenty.

535
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: How did you find out that the governor had granted

536
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: you clemency?

537
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: I had surgery not too long ago, and one of

538
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: the officers that sat with me at the hospital ended

539
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: up working with internal affairs and she comes to my room.

540
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: She's like, hey, Marylyn, I need to see you. And

541
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: I'm like yeah. Everybody's like, oh shucks, I ace here. Hi,

542
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: you're contra band, you know. So she's like, no, come here,

543
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: I need to speak to you. I'm like okay, and

544
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: she's like do you know. And I'm like, oh my god,

545
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: you're leaving me too. And she's like, oh, you don't know.

546
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: I'm like, don't know what. She whispered in my ear

547
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: and she's like, no, you're going home. I'm like, stop

548
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: playing with me. And she's like, I'm for real. I'm like,

549
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: stop playing with my emotions. This is not funny. I

550
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: love you. You're good to me. You were good to

551
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: me then, but right now you're kind of, you know,

552
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: working a little nerve. She's like, no, no, I'm for real.

553
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: She's like, Officer Dorsey is up there at the business

554
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: office right now, shutting down your account. When are your

555
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: paperwork the people for the parole board is coming to

556
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: see you. You need to sign the paperwork. The governor's

557
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: sending you your release form. You need to sign it.

558
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: I said, I believe it when I see it. And

559
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: I looked at her and she's like, H'm for real.

560
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I believe you. So then there's two

561
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: officers who are just they go above and beyond. They're

562
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: very compassionate and I'm very fond of them because they

563
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: break their neck to help women in there. And Lamar

564
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: and Hardison and were like, miss Malari, come to the

565
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: day room right now. And I'm like, oh shucks. And

566
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: they were like, we're about to announce it on the

567
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: intercom that you're going home. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

568
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: please do not do that just yet. They were like what,

569
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 2: Because I don't want the girls to be in an

570
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: uproar because once they find out that I was going home,

571
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: because they've been waiting and waiting impatiently. We were on lockdown,

572
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: difficult situation to where we couldn't see each other. I

573
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: felt like maybe a riot would have kicked out on

574
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: the unit, you know. So what we did was we

575
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: waited till the next morning. So I woke up about

576
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: four o'clock in the morning and started packing my things

577
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: and giving everything I had away. I didn't care. I

578
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: didn't want to take nothing home but my bible, my pictures,

579
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 2: my school were and my legal work. That's all. I

580
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: walked out of there with everything else was left behind,

581
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: and the lieutenant came with the paperwork. I signed it.

582
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: The parole board came. I signed it at seven o'clock

583
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: in the morning when count was clear. They're like, we

584
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: got to get you out the institution so you won't

585
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: be on our eight o'clock count. I'm like, okay. So

586
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: we went to the BFI, took my picture, took the fingerprints,

587
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: took my stuff to property, and was headed out the

588
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: front gate and right at the sally port where the

589
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: visitors come in. Outside at the gate is where my

590
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: brothers were waiting for me, and all the wardens were there.

591
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: The administration was there at Heidie Brown and other people,

592
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: and they, you know, hugged me. We knew we didn't

593
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: have it the coronavirus. We hugged and said our goodbyes,

594
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: you know, shed tears, and everybody was kind of mad

595
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: that I didn't say bye. To the ladies the institution,

596
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: but I couldn't because we were on lockdown, you know. So,

597
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: I mean when the girls found out, the officers blasted it, Hey,

598
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: Malario's going home, and everybody started hollering out the window,

599
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: trying to let the other ladies on other units know

600
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: that I was going home, and you know, they were

601
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 2: hollering and screaming, don't forget about us, don't forget about us.

602
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 3: I tell you, Marylyn, when I got the call that

603
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: you were getting out, I couldn't even speak.

604
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: It's just.

605
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: It's just been so long, and yeah, it's heartbreaking. I'm

606
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 3: glad it's over. But I really hope we can learn

607
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 3: from the story, and I hope some changes are made.

608
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: Did you get a chance to see your children while

609
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: you were in prison or what was that communication?

610
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: Like?

611
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: Over all those twenty six years.

612
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: I was pretty blessed. I had a family who would

613
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: take turns bringing my kids see me constantly, So in

614
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: that perspective, I, you know, was very grateful for my family.

615
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 2: So throughout my whole incarceration, I was able to see them.

616
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 2: It was heartbreaking sometimes because my oldest son will always

617
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: try to undo the handcuffs to release me and stuff,

618
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: you know, and he will always be like, my mom, let's go,

619
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: let's go. And I'm like, no, baby, I got to

620
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 2: stay here in school. He's like, Mom, you're not in school,

621
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: You're in jail, you know. So they pretty much knew.

622
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: So at that point I knew that I had to

623
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: keep it real with them and be like, yeah, mommy's

624
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: in jail, you know, but not for long, and I'll

625
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: be home with you guys. You know. It took them

626
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: to be grown men now, but I'm blessed to be

627
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: here with them and be able to spend time with

628
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: them and my grandkids and my family. Since I've been

629
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: out here, I've been on a movement trying to focus

630
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: back on those ladies that are still there, that are

631
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: also innocent, that no one knows about, because like myself,

632
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: I've been fighting and it's been falling on deaf ears

633
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: and the same thing with the women's that are in there.

634
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: So I am fighting hard with the Exoneration Project to

635
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: make these ladies known. So that's what I'm working on

636
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 2: right now.

637
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: You've really hit the ground running, and it's awesome to

638
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: see that your spirit is beyond and all I can

639
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: say about that is welcome home. And of course, there

640
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: was another development, which is that in May of this year,

641
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: the Cook County State's Attorney's Office began a comprehensive review

642
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: of now retired Detective Ronaldo Guervera's cases in what has

643
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: now been called one of the biggest policing scandals in

644
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: US history. And let me just say that again, one

645
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: of the biggest policing scandals in US history. This is

646
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: the detective, well, the two detectives that were responsible for

647
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: your wrongful conviction. But justin what about Ernest Halverson.

648
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's been tied into these cases as well. You know,

649
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 3: as usual, it's not one bad apple. There was a

650
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: lot of bad things happening in Chicago back then and

651
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: there's still problems now. And fortunately we have organizations like

652
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: the Exoneration Project in Chicago, the Illinois Innocence Project, the

653
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: Center of Wrongful Convictions. It's a real hotbed of wrongful

654
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 3: convictions in Chicago, and they're not just letting these lay down.

655
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: You know, for a long time it's been about just

656
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 3: getting our clients out of prison. But we need real

657
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: reform and we need to examine these cases after they

658
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 3: happen and look for the people responsible and hold them

659
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: accountable and then look at their other cases. I've been

660
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 3: talking for years about how Detective Guevara was part of

661
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: Marland's case because people have been looking at him for

662
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 3: a long long time. But the problem is in our system.

663
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: Getting the truth into a format that then can get

664
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 3: presented within our judicial system and have a result is very,

665
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: very difficult. It's the greatest frustration of my life is

666
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: that often we know the truth and we have the facts,

667
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: but for some reason, the system won't allow those facts

668
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: to be presented or won't give you an opportunity to

669
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: get the right result, and that's taken away twenty seven

670
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 3: years of Marilyn's life.

671
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: It's so remarkable to sit here and listen to Marylyn,

672
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: and you know, it just dawned to me. She hasn't

673
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: had one negative thing to say. There hasn't been any

674
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: trace of and maybe I'm just not hearing it, but

675
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 1: I don't think it's there of bitterness. No. I mean,

676
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: she's focused on during this interview, on the things, the

677
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: bright spots, the positive things that happened while she was

678
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: on death row, while she was in prison in maxim

679
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: security prison for twenty six years, or something she didn't do.

680
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: So all I can say is you are a blessing

681
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: and it is an honor to be able just to

682
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: talk to you and to be a part of your

683
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: story in some small way.

684
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 2: Well, I kind of knew that eventually. You know, I've

685
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: always believed in God, and I've always placed my faith

686
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: in Him and allow me to see me through. That's

687
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: going to be okay, that I was going to come

688
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: through this if I kept believing and maintaining my faith

689
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: in him.

690
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: It takes a lot to maintain faith after everything you've

691
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: been through, but more power to you.

692
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: And she is extraordinary. You know you said about how

693
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 3: a positive an upbeat she is. I've had times over

694
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 3: the last couple of decades when Marilyn has tried to

695
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 3: cheer me up about the case, and you know, that's

696
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 3: a very strange thing. She's been a believer. She's an

697
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: incredibly strong women. And that's what we see with a

698
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 3: lot of exoneries. They are different, and they are survivors

699
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: and they are fighters, and that's why they make it

700
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: through this nightmare.

701
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: Well said, and it is justice delayed, but at least

702
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: in this case, justice was not denied. And there's still

703
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: fighting left to be done on Marilyn's behalf, and I

704
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 1: know she's in the best possible hands with you in

705
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: the California Innocence as well as all the other great

706
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: people that have been involved in helping to get you home, Marylyn,

707
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: and I want to put a plug in too. You've

708
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: heard today about the work of the California Innocence Project

709
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: as well as the two other organizations that helped free Maryland,

710
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: the Illinois Innocence Project and the Exoneration Project, and we're

711
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: going to have a link in our bio to all

712
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: of those wonderful organizations. Please go and click on the

713
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: link and learn more and join us and get involved.

714
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: So this is part of the show where I first

715
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: of all get to thank both of you for coming

716
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: on and sharing your thoughts and your perspective and your spirit.

717
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 1: And then I turned my microphone off and kick back

718
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: on my chair with my headphones on, close my eyes

719
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: and just listen to whatever else you have to say. Maryland.

720
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: We're going to save you the best for last, and

721
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to that. So now again, Justin Brooks,

722
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: founder and director of the California Innocence Project, law professor

723
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: and human rights fighter extraordinaire. Thank you again for being

724
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: here with us today.

725
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 3: You know this case changed my life, Marylynd changed my life.

726
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 3: I was teaching law school and a nice quiet life

727
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: in the middle of Michigan with a nice little Victorian house,

728
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 3: and I'd been a criminal defense attorney for a number

729
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 3: of years in Washington, d C. But when I got

730
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 3: involved in this case, I was shocked. I was shocked

731
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: at the United States of America, a twenty one year

732
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 3: old individual could be sentenced to death on a polea bargain,

733
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 3: with no investigation into our case, a conspiracy between the

734
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: police and the lawyers and the judges. Everybody'd let this happen.

735
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: They let this twenty one year old fall through this

736
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 3: giant crack. It shocked me, and I didn't think I

737
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 3: could be shocked as a criminal defense attorney, and so

738
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: it just changed my life. It caused me to leave

739
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 3: my job in Michigan, move to California, start the California

740
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: Innisen's Project. And this case is the inspiration for the

741
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 3: more than thirty people we've been able to free in California.

742
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 3: I don't think any of that would have happened without Maryland.

743
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 3: And now even a few months after she's out of prison,

744
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: it's still not real to me because it's been part

745
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 3: of my life for so long. It's almost like I

746
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 3: don't know who I am if I'm not representing Marilyn

747
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 3: Molaro and trying to get her out of prison. So

748
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: I'm really happy we could tell her story today. It's

749
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 3: an important story and it's certainly a big part of

750
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 3: who I am.

751
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: Amen to that. And Wow, Marilyn, that must have been

752
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: an amazing feeling to hear justin say those words and

753
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: to know that you are a key element in the

754
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: freedom of so many others who were wrongfully convicted of

755
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: thirty in counting so and now what we've all been

756
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: waiting for, no pressure. Thank you again, Marilyn Malarro for

757
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: being here, for being so strong, and will turn it

758
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: over to you for closing arguments.

759
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: I want to thank you. I want to thank everybody

760
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: who's been involved in my case throughout my twenty seven

761
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: plus years. I've had a lot of good people working

762
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: on my case, and some of them are still in

763
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 2: contact with me, and that's a very you know, emoctional thing.

764
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: Knowing that these people can still stay in contact, which

765
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: they didn't have to, but they are, you know, so

766
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 2: I take that to heart. Prison life has not been

767
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: easy for me, you know. I've had some struggles, my

768
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: ups and downs, you know, my downfalls, you know, and

769
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: it's part of the struggle while you're in prison. And

770
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: sometimes you have to set up a mechanism so that

771
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: people won't, you know, think that you're vulnerable or take

772
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 2: the best of you. So I always had my head

773
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: up and always stay positive. I've always tried to do

774
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: my best to help other women. My experience with my

775
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: situation in my case had helped me to deal with

776
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 2: other women in their situations as well and help them

777
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: cope with, you know, their pain and suffering and being

778
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: able to be away from their families. And you know,

779
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: while I've been incarcerated, I've helped create different programs, different

780
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: groups and join the Phoenix Rising, And as soon as

781
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: a week within joining Phoenix Rising, which is a program

782
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: from long term prisoners, I was voted in to become

783
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 2: a committee member, and you know, I was honored by

784
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: that because a lot of women had respect for me

785
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: and a lot of my ideas and we've always succeeded

786
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 2: in everything that we've tried. To accomplish, and the wardens

787
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: would allow me to partake in a lot of the

788
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: things and be a part of what they would do

789
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,959
Speaker 2: in the institution. And they asked me and Tammy Fike

790
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: if we would create a program for the elderly and

791
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: the disabled, and we took a whole unit, which was

792
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: House Unit six, and we created that which became a

793
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: safe haven for those women so they would not be mistreated,

794
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: you know, and misled and extorted and beat down in

795
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: whatever other case could have taken place with these women.

796
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: And We've created various programs, groups, activities. You know, we

797
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: constantly always pray for the unit so the women's could

798
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: get along together and not create a lot of chaos.

799
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,720
Speaker 2: And I'm very grateful that I'm here now. I'm grateful

800
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: for Justin. You know, Justin always told me, Hey, Marylyn,

801
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: I'm never divorcing this case, so you get home. But

802
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: like I told Justin, I'm home, but you're still not

803
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: divorcing me. You're stuck with me for life. So you know,

804
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: now he's got to deal with me, so, you know,

805
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: and Lauren and the other Lauren and you know, send

806
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: the all these people. So I'm very grateful and at

807
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 2: this moment, I'm trying to do me. I'm still at peace.

808
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 2: I'm happy with the women I've became while I was incarcerated,

809
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: and I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing,

810
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: and that's helping people while I'm out here and reaching

811
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: back out to the women that are still in there

812
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: as well as to the men. You know, I'm insupportive

813
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: of all the Gervarra victims and I'm just going to

814
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 2: continue to be me and be positive, and one day

815
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: I hope to put together my work release center to

816
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: help some of these women that don't have places to go.

817
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: And that's my story, that's my life, and that's my dream,

818
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: and I believe I was designed.

819
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: To do this. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

820
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm

821
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: a proud donor to the Nnocence Project, and I really

822
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

823
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence

824
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

825
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

826
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: Kevin wardis the music in the show. Is by three

827
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

828
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

829
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

830
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

831
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: Company Number one