WEBVTT - Life After Escaping Captivity 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.596 Pushkin. I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings 0:00:33.676 --> 0:00:36.676 us to life, but this turned up the volume on 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:40.716 that in a pretty incredible way. That's Tommy Caldwell, who's 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:43.356 considered one of the best rock climbers in the world. 0:00:43.916 --> 0:00:46.116 When he was on a climbing expedition, he had a 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:49.436 near death experience where he was held hostage for six days, 0:00:50.076 --> 0:00:52.716 and he says what he endured on that mountain unlocked 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:56.356 a completely new state of mind, one he describes as 0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:59.676 a flow state. To me, that flow state in its 0:00:59.796 --> 0:01:04.076 most pure form, is like this moment where it's almost 0:01:04.156 --> 0:01:09.396 like everything slows down. You feel weightless, you feel like 0:01:09.476 --> 0:01:12.356 your vision is a queue. You notice detail in this 0:01:12.476 --> 0:01:17.116 incredible way. It's like in the moment where all odds 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:22.596 are against you, suddenly it's like the clarity comes. Tommy 0:01:22.636 --> 0:01:26.396 tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than twenty 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:30.236 years ago, and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 0:01:31.276 --> 0:01:34.076 I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:36.876 a show that died deep into the world of change 0:01:37.036 --> 0:01:39.916 and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 0:01:39.916 --> 0:02:04.396 our own lives. So to jump in I would love 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:07.556 to just hear a bit more about how it is 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:09.636 that you got into climbing. I mean, I got into 0:02:09.676 --> 0:02:11.676 climbing because of my father. He was a mountain god, 0:02:12.076 --> 0:02:15.716 pretty extraordinary human being. He was a bodybuilder in the 0:02:16.316 --> 0:02:21.476 like eighties and early nineties, like big, super macho man. 0:02:21.596 --> 0:02:25.236 He had this incredible love of adventure, and he was 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:28.876 a middle school teacher, and so he blended all those 0:02:28.916 --> 0:02:32.236 things together and used me kind of as his test subject. 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:37.676 Like I was actually, at least socially and probably mentally 0:02:38.476 --> 0:02:41.996 a pretty meek, delayed child in a lot of ways. 0:02:42.396 --> 0:02:44.756 You know, I'm not good at the mental things. You know, 0:02:44.796 --> 0:02:47.596 I'm socially really shy and having a really macho down. 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:49.196 He's like, we got to figure out ways to like 0:02:49.436 --> 0:02:51.436 toughen this kid up so that he can deal with 0:02:51.476 --> 0:02:54.276 the world. And he might have overcompensated a little bit. 0:02:54.316 --> 0:02:57.756 But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood. 0:02:57.756 --> 0:03:00.036 So I'm curious to know what that's like. Like, what's 0:03:00.036 --> 0:03:01.796 an example of something you would do with your dad. 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:04.396 I mean to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 0:03:04.436 --> 0:03:08.556 pretty insane, especially back then. I mean, one example is 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:11.196 we hyped to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 0:03:11.316 --> 0:03:15.076 spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:18.596 or in Yusemite National Park, And we repelled down four 0:03:18.676 --> 0:03:21.236 hundred feet off the rim of Usemite Valley with you know, 0:03:21.316 --> 0:03:24.236 two thousand feet of exposure below us. Wow, I did 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:27.436 this as like maybe six or seven years old. Were 0:03:27.436 --> 0:03:29.556 you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to you? 0:03:29.676 --> 0:03:32.996 Or was it really hard? I think there are there's 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:36.276 a couple moments from my childhood where I remember feeling 0:03:36.596 --> 0:03:38.996 pretty scared, like this was a bit much. But those 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:44.676 were definitely the exceptions, Like I developed a sort of 0:03:44.876 --> 0:03:48.796 fear tolerance that it's probably part of the reason I've 0:03:48.796 --> 0:03:51.556 been able to excel the way I do now. But 0:03:51.596 --> 0:03:53.436 there's certainly been times in my life where I wonder 0:03:53.436 --> 0:03:56.596 if it's unhealthy, Like I don't get scared when I should. 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:00.756 But can you say a little more about that. Yeah, 0:04:00.796 --> 0:04:04.276 I mean the types of climbing that I do in 0:04:04.316 --> 0:04:07.636 the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, for instance, 0:04:07.676 --> 0:04:11.436 there's a lot of objective hazard, Like there's instances where 0:04:11.436 --> 0:04:15.196 you're climbing up a mountain and you know, some rockfall 0:04:15.236 --> 0:04:17.676 event happens, and like a big rock will fall and 0:04:17.836 --> 0:04:20.596 land on alleged twenty feet away from you, and most 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:23.516 people get freaked out by that kind of thing, like 0:04:23.516 --> 0:04:27.236 they have this emotional kind of adrenal reaction, and I 0:04:27.356 --> 0:04:30.396 don't have that so much, And I wonder if that's unhealthy. 0:04:31.076 --> 0:04:33.436 Was this just a natural trait that you had, or 0:04:33.956 --> 0:04:35.796 did you feel like you were building it over time 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:37.916 as a kid. I feel like for me, I was 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:40.956 building it over time. Like there are certain climbs that 0:04:40.996 --> 0:04:43.956 I go and do, climbs where I might fall twenty 0:04:43.996 --> 0:04:46.676 thirty fifty feet at a time before I get caught 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:50.436 from the rope. That feels incredibly terrifying at first, early 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:52.756 on in the season, but I get more and more 0:04:52.836 --> 0:04:54.196 used to it over time. So I think that can 0:04:54.236 --> 0:04:56.676 happen within a season or on a certain climb, but 0:04:56.716 --> 0:04:59.476 I think it can also happen in a way over 0:04:59.636 --> 0:05:02.156 the length of your life. And so since I started 0:05:02.396 --> 0:05:05.276 really young doing this stuff, I believe that that's why 0:05:05.716 --> 0:05:09.516 I am the way I am. I guess. Yeah, that's 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:12.156 so interesting, As you were simply describing that, I felt 0:05:12.196 --> 0:05:14.756 tingles in my fingers in a pit in my stomach 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:18.516 imagining being at that height, so sadly. Yeah, I think 0:05:18.516 --> 0:05:21.716 my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. Yeah, yeah, 0:05:21.756 --> 0:05:26.236 it's probably more healthy your way. When Tommy's twenty two, 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:28.396 he gets invited to go on a climbing trip with 0:05:28.436 --> 0:05:32.636 three other climbers to Kyrgyzstan, this beautiful mountainous country in 0:05:32.676 --> 0:05:36.316 Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, is of course excited for 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:38.996 the challenge, but the real reason he wants to go 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:42.676 is because of another climber on the trip, Beth Rodden. Yeah, 0:05:42.716 --> 0:05:45.596 that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. I 0:05:45.596 --> 0:05:48.196 would saying, we're really really kind of early on in 0:05:48.236 --> 0:05:50.556 our dating period at that time, So this was during 0:05:50.556 --> 0:05:52.996 the like still wooing her stage. Is that why you 0:05:53.036 --> 0:05:56.516 were so excited to go? Absolutely? Yeah, okay, got it. 0:05:58.636 --> 0:06:00.716 So can you paint a little bit of a scene 0:06:00.756 --> 0:06:03.636 for me about when you first arrived in Kyrgistan, Like 0:06:03.676 --> 0:06:06.716 what is it like and what climbing lies ahead of you? Yeah, 0:06:06.756 --> 0:06:09.716 so we flew in, come around the corner and we 0:06:09.716 --> 0:06:14.116 see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever been 0:06:14.156 --> 0:06:17.636 in a region like the Himalayas or something, the mountains, 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:21.276 they are just so big and so beautiful that it's surreal. 0:06:21.316 --> 0:06:23.156 I mean, it looks like you're looking at a painting. 0:06:23.196 --> 0:06:26.436 It looks completely unreal. And so those big snow covered 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:29.436 mountains are in the background, and then these big rock spires, 0:06:29.436 --> 0:06:32.036 these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, the kind of 0:06:32.036 --> 0:06:34.916 thing that climbers dream of, were kind of in the foreground. 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:37.476 So we flew and there was a bit of a 0:06:37.596 --> 0:06:41.076 valley kind of below all of the rocks spires, and 0:06:41.156 --> 0:06:44.636 so that's where we made our base camp. And some 0:06:44.676 --> 0:06:47.156 of the people that live in the valley came and 0:06:47.276 --> 0:06:50.836 visited with us and brought us, you know, yak milk 0:06:50.876 --> 0:06:55.676 and butter and fresh baked bread, and it was like, yeah, yeah, 0:06:55.676 --> 0:06:58.356 it was pretty idealistic. Like they hadn't they had they 0:06:58.396 --> 0:07:01.596 had encountered climbing teams like us in the past, because 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:03.196 this is the place that people had been coming and 0:07:03.196 --> 0:07:06.796 climbing for ten or fifteen years, so we knew that 0:07:06.836 --> 0:07:09.676 we would encounter them. So we brought ways to play 0:07:09.716 --> 0:07:14.796 with the kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, 0:07:14.796 --> 0:07:17.596 it was. It was absolutely beautiful. It's certainly sort of 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:20.716 a dream trip. Everything I kind of expected and hoped 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:24.916 for at first. Can you describe the moment when you 0:07:24.996 --> 0:07:29.956 realize that you were in danger. Yeah, so it's very distinct. 0:07:31.396 --> 0:07:35.396 We had been in the valley for five or six days. 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:38.676 We had sort of walked around and scope the rocks 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:40.356 and decided that we were going to do our warm 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:42.356 up climb on this mountain, which is about a two 0:07:42.396 --> 0:07:45.716 thousand foot nearly vertical rock cliff. And then we had 0:07:45.756 --> 0:07:48.596 spent the first day climbing about halfway up that wall, 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:51.436 so a thousand feet up. We know the style of 0:07:51.436 --> 0:07:53.916 climbing we're doing. You climb one hundred or two hundred 0:07:53.916 --> 0:07:57.036 feet up, and then you haul all of your equipment up, 0:07:57.076 --> 0:08:01.556 which is food, water, portal ledges. There's no horizontal places 0:08:01.596 --> 0:08:03.196 to sleep, so you set up your portal ledges. And 0:08:03.236 --> 0:08:06.476 we had this hanging camp a thousand feet up this wall. 0:08:06.956 --> 0:08:09.716 And that was actually the night of my birthday. Beth 0:08:09.796 --> 0:08:12.476 presents me with this candle. We're seeing happy birthday. It's 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:15.916 like there's no light pollution at all in this place 0:08:15.956 --> 0:08:20.916 because you're literally fifty miles from the nearest source of electricity, 0:08:21.676 --> 0:08:24.916 and the stars are brilliant and these you know, the 0:08:24.956 --> 0:08:28.796 moonlight is illuminating these these snow covered peaks up valley 0:08:28.836 --> 0:08:32.276 and it's Yeah, it's a pretty incredible scene. And so 0:08:32.316 --> 0:08:34.996 we go to beds feeling like everything's great, and then 0:08:35.716 --> 0:08:39.996 at very first light the next morning, we awake to gunshots, 0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:43.756 like just startled awake to gunshots. And first we thought 0:08:43.756 --> 0:08:47.276 that it was just some hunters in the valley, probably, 0:08:47.476 --> 0:08:49.796 but then bullets started to hit this roof of rock 0:08:49.876 --> 0:08:51.716 that was right above us, and so we realized that 0:08:52.116 --> 0:08:54.196 they were actually shooting at us. They were close by. 0:08:55.356 --> 0:08:58.316 We had a big camera with us with a long 0:08:58.396 --> 0:09:01.476 telephoto lens, and so we pulled out that camera and 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:03.996 we could look down to the ground, almost like looking 0:09:04.036 --> 0:09:08.716 through you know, binoculars, and we could see these heavily 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:12.436 armed militants on the ground. We felt very vulnerable, like 0:09:12.476 --> 0:09:14.796 we're expecting bullets to just rip through the bottom of 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:18.636 the portal edge at any moment. Wow. So in that moment, 0:09:18.996 --> 0:09:22.796 are you thinking, Okay, they might have missed slightly the 0:09:22.916 --> 0:09:26.036 first with the first few shots, but you know we're 0:09:26.036 --> 0:09:28.956 going to die. Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:30.556 There's no way to run away them, and it's just 0:09:30.756 --> 0:09:33.916 complete vulnerability. It's like somebody shooting at you and you 0:09:33.956 --> 0:09:38.516 can't hide behind anything. Yeah, you're literally affixed to a 0:09:38.596 --> 0:09:41.596 vertical wall in a tent, right, there's literally no escape 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:44.756 rut right, Yeah, I mean moving out of the way 0:09:44.796 --> 0:09:46.996 would have been, you know, a several hour process to 0:09:47.756 --> 0:09:51.516 just get up and around the corner or something. Okay, 0:09:51.556 --> 0:09:54.276 So then so you hear this these gun shots. What 0:09:54.396 --> 0:09:58.956 happens next through our telephoto camera lens, we see them 0:09:58.996 --> 0:10:02.356 sort of waving at us to come down, and we 0:10:02.916 --> 0:10:06.236 know that we have no other option. Basically, they've got 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:08.916 these big guns. They've proved that that they're good shots 0:10:09.636 --> 0:10:12.196 with these guns, and so we're like, we have to 0:10:12.236 --> 0:10:14.836 go down. So we have a discussion and we decide 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:18.316 that John Dickey, who is the oldest member of our expedition, 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:20.996 will go down and try and talk to them. We're 0:10:20.996 --> 0:10:23.156 just trying to be super optimistic at this point. Maybe 0:10:23.196 --> 0:10:26.236 they just want information, we don't really know. And so 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:30.916 John starts descending down the wall. Takes him probably nearly 0:10:30.956 --> 0:10:34.276 an hour, and he gets down there and we have 0:10:34.316 --> 0:10:36.636 these two way radios and he had taken one of them. 0:10:36.956 --> 0:10:39.996 When he gets down there, he he just sounds very serious. 0:10:40.076 --> 0:10:43.476 He radio's back to us and he's like, you guys 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:46.596 are just gonna have to come down. So the other 0:10:46.636 --> 0:10:49.556 three of us just start descending down the wall, and 0:10:49.596 --> 0:10:52.156 when we get to the ground, we're confronted with a 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:55.876 pretty scary scene. I would say, there's two heavily armed 0:10:56.636 --> 0:11:01.996 men that are wearing this combination of like army fatigues, 0:11:02.636 --> 0:11:05.356 so they look pretty scary, but their demeanor is actually 0:11:05.476 --> 0:11:08.756 pretty chill. They wait for us. We get to the 0:11:08.756 --> 0:11:11.796 ground and they're just kind of sitting around, not really 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:14.036 saying that much, and then and then they just kind 0:11:14.036 --> 0:11:16.596 of wave us on to follow them back to base camp. 0:11:17.356 --> 0:11:19.516 A conflict had broken out in the country between the 0:11:19.556 --> 0:11:23.276 Kyrgi's army and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. Up on 0:11:23.316 --> 0:11:25.956 the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 0:11:25.996 --> 0:11:28.756 a Kyrgi soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 0:11:28.756 --> 0:11:31.156 his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 0:11:31.196 --> 0:11:33.636 able to get a closer look at the soldier. He 0:11:33.836 --> 0:11:37.356 just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind of 0:11:37.396 --> 0:11:39.956 scared and very stern, and he had blood all over 0:11:39.996 --> 0:11:42.596 his pants. And I think there was that one moment 0:11:42.636 --> 0:11:44.556 in there where John looked over at us and he's like, 0:11:44.716 --> 0:11:48.396 we're hostages. I think we're hostages, and so that's kind 0:11:48.396 --> 0:11:51.636 of when it struck us. The militants waste no time. 0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:54.316 They lead Tommy and Beth and the other climbers into 0:11:54.316 --> 0:11:57.076 the mountain side at gunpoint, and as they start to 0:11:57.116 --> 0:11:59.996 cross the river, a group of Kyrgi soldiers appear at 0:11:59.996 --> 0:12:02.436 the top of the hill and start shooting at them. 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:06.356 This battle breaks out essentially, and we hide in this bush, 0:12:06.396 --> 0:12:10.996 and Beth and myself and this Kurgy soldier end up 0:12:10.996 --> 0:12:13.996 in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 0:12:14.036 --> 0:12:17.996 the rebels told us one by one to run up 0:12:17.996 --> 0:12:23.116 behind this boulder, and the Kurgy soldier went first, and 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:25.236 as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:29.236 heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 0:12:29.236 --> 0:12:31.636 and they had just shot him in the shot him 0:12:31.636 --> 0:12:33.916 in the head right there, and then the rest of 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:35.716 us had to go up and hide behind that boulder. 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:38.516 As this battle sort of erupted around us. It was 0:12:38.556 --> 0:12:40.956 a full on like war scene. We were hiding behind 0:12:40.956 --> 0:12:43.596 this boulder. The boulder was getting you know, bullets were 0:12:43.676 --> 0:12:46.676 ricocheting off the boulder. We were behind it, sitting on 0:12:46.716 --> 0:12:50.476 the dead body of this other Kurgy soldier, and they 0:12:50.476 --> 0:12:54.916 were shooting these these mortars across at us. I mean, 0:12:54.956 --> 0:12:56.276 we were kind of certain that we were going to 0:12:56.316 --> 0:13:01.436 die at any moment. I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of 0:13:01.476 --> 0:13:06.556 going from these immensely peaceful climbs in this expansive valley 0:13:07.236 --> 0:13:12.476 too absolute life or death, insanity. What do you remember feeling? 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:16.716 Definitely writing on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 0:13:16.916 --> 0:13:20.596 is not like the rest of life at all. And 0:13:20.796 --> 0:13:24.836 I think it was fear that was more intense and 0:13:24.956 --> 0:13:27.276 far different than anything I had noticed. Like, in some 0:13:27.356 --> 0:13:30.276 ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 0:13:30.396 --> 0:13:34.236 my climbing life, but this was just way different. Tommy, 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:36.316 Beth and their crew managed to make it out of 0:13:36.316 --> 0:13:39.796 this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive by 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:43.436 two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors because 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:46.036 they don't speak the same language, but from what they 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:48.516 can glean, there's an older guy who seems to be 0:13:48.556 --> 0:13:52.836 in charge, and then a teenager named Scherapov. During the day, 0:13:52.916 --> 0:13:55.716 the militants lead them around and what ultimately ends up 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:59.556 being a big circle looking for hiding places, and we 0:13:59.596 --> 0:14:01.796 don't have any food. We had to abandon all of 0:14:01.836 --> 0:14:04.156 our food, except I had managed to shove like five 0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:07.716 or six energy bars into my pocket. So each day 0:14:07.796 --> 0:14:10.236 we would in the evening, we would split one of 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:12.916 those energy bars between the six of us, and that's 0:14:12.956 --> 0:14:15.996 the only food we had, and we do kind of 0:14:15.996 --> 0:14:17.996 feel like we're all in it together, like we share 0:14:18.036 --> 0:14:20.036 our food with them. They didn't just take all of 0:14:20.036 --> 0:14:22.956 our food. They shared it with us, those six, you know, 0:14:23.116 --> 0:14:28.236 energy bars that we had, and the demeanor became pretty 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:30.956 friendly a lot of the time. And then during the 0:14:31.036 --> 0:14:36.276 daylight hours we would hide in usually just absolutely miserable 0:14:36.356 --> 0:14:40.796 hiding spots like you know, buy rivers, under boulders. It 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:44.196 was always super cold, were our teeth were chattering all 0:14:44.276 --> 0:14:47.636 day long, every day, to the point where where our 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:50.556 jaws and our mouths got really sort We'd be sitting 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:53.996 there hiding for fourteen hours of daylight or whatever, and 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:56.676 it would feel like a week. Did you ever worry 0:14:56.676 --> 0:14:59.116 that you were going to die of hypothermia, so it's 0:14:59.156 --> 0:15:01.716 not just the potential of being killed, but also you 0:15:01.756 --> 0:15:04.716 just might die from extreme conditions. Yeah, no, that was 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:07.276 definitely a worry of ours. We were probably on the 0:15:07.356 --> 0:15:10.516 verge most of the time, and we're at a point 0:15:10.516 --> 0:15:15.236 where where we can't really just sit through these conditions anymore. 0:15:15.356 --> 0:15:18.396 But then weirdly at times, I think this is sort 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:20.796 of a proven thing that happens when you go through 0:15:20.836 --> 0:15:24.276 this severe hunger, as you have these moments of like 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:27.556 mental clarity, like you feel like you are almost more 0:15:27.596 --> 0:15:30.796 alive than ever as you're starving to death, your body 0:15:30.996 --> 0:15:35.476 sort of starts to kick into this like survival mode, 0:15:35.556 --> 0:15:39.316 and so you sort of an alternate between that and 0:15:39.356 --> 0:15:42.036 then other times of just feeling really lethargic and really 0:15:42.076 --> 0:15:45.996 slow and you know, really hungry. So we just traveled 0:15:45.996 --> 0:15:49.756 around like that for six nights, getting progressively weaker, and 0:15:49.796 --> 0:15:53.476 then finally on that last night, things are pretty desperate, 0:15:53.836 --> 0:15:56.396 and so we were left on this night with just 0:15:56.716 --> 0:16:01.396 the young scared soldier Chapov, and told to climb up 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:04.996 this incredibly steep mountain. It was, you know, true rock climbing, 0:16:04.996 --> 0:16:07.076 Like it was kind of terrain that if you fell 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:09.036 on it didn't seem like you would stop. You would 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:12.116 continue falling until you got you know, bouncing down the 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:15.716 mountain until you got to the bottom. And and Shariffov 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:19.436 was really scared. Um we were actually having to lead 0:16:19.476 --> 0:16:23.116 the way because we're climbers. We would you know, grab 0:16:23.156 --> 0:16:25.916 his hand and pull him up over rock steps. We 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:29.156 would point out footholds for him to step on. We 0:16:29.156 --> 0:16:31.316 would sort of spot him in case he stumbled, we 0:16:31.316 --> 0:16:33.396 could catch him so he didn't just fall down the mountain. 0:16:33.916 --> 0:16:37.156 And so in all of our minds like if if 0:16:37.156 --> 0:16:40.876 there was a time to escape, this was it. So 0:16:40.916 --> 0:16:44.676 I'm curious, and it seems like the very natural instinct 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:47.436 to help others was kicking in for you. Right, you're 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:50.556 spotting the sky, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 0:16:51.356 --> 0:16:55.156 Who are these competing feelings towards him and the situation 0:16:56.076 --> 0:16:59.516 leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 0:16:59.596 --> 0:17:02.836 right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 0:17:02.956 --> 0:17:05.676 a person who might ultimately lead to your death, if 0:17:05.676 --> 0:17:07.996 you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance in 0:17:08.036 --> 0:17:11.436 their situation. I mean, I think I think it felt 0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:13.876 different at different times, Like at times I was like, 0:17:13.956 --> 0:17:16.436 we should outlast this, We should be good human beings 0:17:16.436 --> 0:17:18.876 as long as we can. In a way, these rebels, 0:17:18.916 --> 0:17:22.356 I didn't see them as super evil people, especially Cherpov 0:17:22.396 --> 0:17:24.476 who were with like he was just a he was younger, 0:17:24.556 --> 0:17:26.556 or he was probably about my age or maybe even younger. 0:17:26.556 --> 0:17:28.836 I think he was eighteen years old at the time. 0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:32.196 He was a hired mercenario. He was obviously super frightened himself. 0:17:32.876 --> 0:17:35.076 You know, Like, who's to say if I didn't grow 0:17:35.156 --> 0:17:36.956 up in a circumstance, I wouldn't have been right there 0:17:36.996 --> 0:17:39.596 with him. So I thought it was sort of morally 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:42.356 wrong to try and take these guys lives. But I 0:17:42.396 --> 0:17:44.956 think on this last night, clouds started to roll in 0:17:45.316 --> 0:17:47.836 and started to reign a tiny bit, and all of 0:17:47.956 --> 0:17:50.356 us were like, if we don't escape this scene pretty soon, 0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:53.476 we are going to succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as 0:17:53.476 --> 0:17:55.756 we were getting to the top of the mountain, I 0:17:55.876 --> 0:18:00.516 knew that our opportunity to push him was going to 0:18:00.556 --> 0:18:05.516 be gone soon. And Beth had been adamantly against killing 0:18:05.556 --> 0:18:08.036 somebody this whole time, but it was getting pretty dire. 0:18:08.116 --> 0:18:11.436 So I looked over her when we're at her, when 0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:13.636 we were maybe fifty or one hundred feet below the 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:15.036 top of this mountain, and I was like, do you 0:18:15.036 --> 0:18:18.436 think I should And she didn't say anything, which to 0:18:18.476 --> 0:18:20.516 me that meant that she thought she'd come around like 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:22.596 she thought that this was probably the right thing to do. 0:18:23.436 --> 0:18:27.556 And so when he saw the top of the mountain 0:18:27.636 --> 0:18:30.116 kind of close, he got a little bit excited. He 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:32.956 started to sort of rush up ahead of all of us. 0:18:34.316 --> 0:18:39.996 He is in Sharipov and I then started to sort 0:18:39.996 --> 0:18:44.596 of sneak up behind him. And he was so focused 0:18:44.636 --> 0:18:46.716 on like staying attached to the mountain, you know, like 0:18:46.716 --> 0:18:48.596 grabbing the right hand holds and stuff, that he really 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:50.996 didn't even notice me. And I ran up behind him, 0:18:51.036 --> 0:18:53.876 and I just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged 0:18:53.916 --> 0:18:56.276 backwards on it, and he started to fly off off 0:18:56.316 --> 0:18:59.516 the mountain side. He fell about twenty feet, hit this 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:01.596 ledge that was below us, bounced off of it like 0:19:01.636 --> 0:19:04.676 the slipping ledge, and then out of sight, just in 0:19:04.716 --> 0:19:10.116 the blackness. We'll be right there. With a slight change 0:19:10.116 --> 0:19:16.716 of plants, I'm maya shunker and this is a slight 0:19:16.796 --> 0:19:20.516 change of plans. Tommy called Wells made the bold decision 0:19:20.556 --> 0:19:23.876 to push one of his captors off the cliff. Years later, 0:19:23.916 --> 0:19:27.116 a journalist working on the story discovers that Cheripov did 0:19:27.156 --> 0:19:29.996 not actually die from the fall, but at the time 0:19:30.116 --> 0:19:34.116 Tommy assumes he's killed Cheripov. And for Tommy, the reality 0:19:34.156 --> 0:19:36.516 of what he just did comes crashing down on him. 0:19:37.236 --> 0:19:40.156 It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:43.276 I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 0:19:43.316 --> 0:19:48.636 like closing my eyes incredibly tight and like seeing like 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:52.556 weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like it's 0:19:52.556 --> 0:19:54.636 almost hard to explain it. It was just it was 0:19:54.676 --> 0:19:58.996 just like emotionally overwhelming that I've never experienced. You know. 0:19:59.716 --> 0:20:02.876 Beth was really comforting me. I mean she like I 0:20:03.356 --> 0:20:04.996 like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 0:20:04.996 --> 0:20:07.116 and she was. And I didn't know if she suddenly 0:20:07.116 --> 0:20:08.916 think that I was like this evil person because we 0:20:09.116 --> 0:20:10.796 haven't really been able to talk it out what I 0:20:10.836 --> 0:20:12.796 was about to do. So she was the one was 0:20:12.796 --> 0:20:16.116 like you, you're my hero. You We're gonna be okay 0:20:16.156 --> 0:20:18.476 because of you, and trying to say the right things 0:20:18.516 --> 0:20:22.236 to help me in that moment. The moment doesn't last long, though, 0:20:22.636 --> 0:20:24.876 with one of their captors pushed off the mountain and 0:20:24.916 --> 0:20:27.236 the other one out of sight. Tommy and his team 0:20:27.316 --> 0:20:29.396 know they need to seize the moment and get out 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:31.956 of there as quickly as possible, so they run down 0:20:31.996 --> 0:20:35.076 the mountain and find safety at a military outpost, and 0:20:35.156 --> 0:20:38.996 eventually they all make it back to the US. Almost immediately, 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:43.236 Tommy's dad notices a change in him. I mean, I 0:20:43.276 --> 0:20:46.916 felt like for a time I sort of receded into 0:20:46.956 --> 0:20:51.036 a ball. I didn't talk to anybody except for Beth 0:20:51.116 --> 0:20:55.916 about personal things. But Beth and a few other close friends. 0:20:56.436 --> 0:20:58.436 I didn't talk to my parents that much about it, 0:20:58.516 --> 0:21:00.236 So I think he probably had that take more than 0:21:00.316 --> 0:21:02.716 most because he knew me a lot. And then I 0:21:02.996 --> 0:21:07.116 just didn't want to discuss this with him. What aspect 0:21:07.236 --> 0:21:10.516 of the experience made you most uncomfortable talking about with 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:14.356 your dad? I think I was just I just didn't 0:21:14.396 --> 0:21:19.876 know how to think about the experience. Like I didn't 0:21:19.916 --> 0:21:22.396 know for a while whether whether I, you know, it, 0:21:22.476 --> 0:21:24.716 was kind of an evil person for having done this thing, 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:26.836 or whether I was kind of a hero for saving us. 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:29.876 I was both. But I'd also learned. I think very 0:21:29.876 --> 0:21:34.356 few people get to find out how they will react 0:21:34.476 --> 0:21:37.996 and super intense experiences like that, everybody sort of wonders. 0:21:37.996 --> 0:21:42.156 And I now knew that when when things are really bad, 0:21:42.396 --> 0:21:44.116 I was able to kind of like rise to the 0:21:44.116 --> 0:21:47.196 occasion and do something that was really hard for me 0:21:47.756 --> 0:21:50.916 and really fight for survival in this way that I 0:21:50.956 --> 0:21:52.956 think I was. I was a bit proud of at 0:21:52.956 --> 0:21:56.596 the time, but I didn't want to seem proud. I 0:21:56.596 --> 0:21:58.556 didn't want to feel I didn't want to feel proud 0:21:58.596 --> 0:22:00.796 in a lot of ways. But I think kind of 0:22:00.996 --> 0:22:02.996 deep down I was a little bit proud, like I 0:22:03.036 --> 0:22:08.036 felt empowered. Interesting, so, so did the adversity faced in 0:22:08.156 --> 0:22:12.996 Kyrgyzstan change your understanding of yourself or actually just reinforce 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:15.476 what you had believed all along about what you were 0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:20.316 capable of. I think it it reinforced more than changed, 0:22:20.396 --> 0:22:23.116 but it also revealed a lot. It opened up a 0:22:23.116 --> 0:22:26.076 ton of curiosity, like I wanted to learn more. I 0:22:26.116 --> 0:22:29.716