1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings 2 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:36,676 Speaker 1: us to life, but this turned up the volume on 3 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: that in a pretty incredible way. That's Tommy Caldwell, who's 4 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:43,356 Speaker 1: considered one of the best rock climbers in the world. 5 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:46,116 Speaker 1: When he was on a climbing expedition, he had a 6 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:49,436 Speaker 1: near death experience where he was held hostage for six days, 7 00:00:50,076 --> 00:00:52,716 Speaker 1: and he says what he endured on that mountain unlocked 8 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:56,356 Speaker 1: a completely new state of mind, one he describes as 9 00:00:56,396 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: a flow state. To me, that flow state in its 10 00:00:59,796 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 1: most pure form, is like this moment where it's almost 11 00:01:04,156 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 1: like everything slows down. You feel weightless, you feel like 12 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:12,356 Speaker 1: your vision is a queue. You notice detail in this 13 00:01:12,476 --> 00:01:17,116 Speaker 1: incredible way. It's like in the moment where all odds 14 00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:22,596 Speaker 1: are against you, suddenly it's like the clarity comes. Tommy 15 00:01:22,636 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 1: tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than twenty 16 00:01:26,476 --> 00:01:30,236 Speaker 1: years ago, and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 17 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:34,076 Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 18 00:01:34,516 --> 00:01:36,876 Speaker 1: a show that died deep into the world of change 19 00:01:37,036 --> 00:01:39,916 Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 20 00:01:39,916 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 1: our own lives. So to jump in I would love 21 00:02:04,476 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 1: to just hear a bit more about how it is 22 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:09,636 Speaker 1: that you got into climbing. I mean, I got into 23 00:02:09,676 --> 00:02:11,676 Speaker 1: climbing because of my father. He was a mountain god, 24 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:15,716 Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary human being. He was a bodybuilder in the 25 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:21,476 Speaker 1: like eighties and early nineties, like big, super macho man. 26 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:25,236 Speaker 1: He had this incredible love of adventure, and he was 27 00:02:25,476 --> 00:02:28,876 Speaker 1: a middle school teacher, and so he blended all those 28 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 1: things together and used me kind of as his test subject. 29 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:37,676 Speaker 1: Like I was actually, at least socially and probably mentally 30 00:02:38,476 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: a pretty meek, delayed child in a lot of ways. 31 00:02:42,396 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not good at the mental things. You know, 32 00:02:44,796 --> 00:02:47,596 Speaker 1: I'm socially really shy and having a really macho down. 33 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:49,196 Speaker 1: He's like, we got to figure out ways to like 34 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:51,436 Speaker 1: toughen this kid up so that he can deal with 35 00:02:51,476 --> 00:02:54,276 Speaker 1: the world. And he might have overcompensated a little bit. 36 00:02:54,316 --> 00:02:57,756 Speaker 1: But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood. 37 00:02:57,756 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to know what that's like. Like, what's 38 00:03:00,036 --> 00:03:01,796 Speaker 1: an example of something you would do with your dad. 39 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 1: I mean to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 40 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 1: pretty insane, especially back then. I mean, one example is 41 00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:11,196 Speaker 1: we hyped to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 42 00:03:11,316 --> 00:03:15,076 Speaker 1: spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 43 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:18,596 Speaker 1: or in Yusemite National Park, And we repelled down four 44 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:21,236 Speaker 1: hundred feet off the rim of Usemite Valley with you know, 45 00:03:21,316 --> 00:03:24,236 Speaker 1: two thousand feet of exposure below us. Wow, I did 46 00:03:24,276 --> 00:03:27,436 Speaker 1: this as like maybe six or seven years old. Were 47 00:03:27,436 --> 00:03:29,556 Speaker 1: you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to you? 48 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:32,996 Speaker 1: Or was it really hard? I think there are there's 49 00:03:33,036 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 1: a couple moments from my childhood where I remember feeling 50 00:03:36,596 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 1: pretty scared, like this was a bit much. But those 51 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:44,676 Speaker 1: were definitely the exceptions, Like I developed a sort of 52 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:48,796 Speaker 1: fear tolerance that it's probably part of the reason I've 53 00:03:48,796 --> 00:03:51,556 Speaker 1: been able to excel the way I do now. But 54 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 1: there's certainly been times in my life where I wonder 55 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: if it's unhealthy, Like I don't get scared when I should. 56 00:03:58,516 --> 00:04:00,756 Speaker 1: But can you say a little more about that. Yeah, 57 00:04:00,796 --> 00:04:04,276 Speaker 1: I mean the types of climbing that I do in 58 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:07,636 Speaker 1: the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, for instance, 59 00:04:07,676 --> 00:04:11,436 Speaker 1: there's a lot of objective hazard, Like there's instances where 60 00:04:11,436 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 1: you're climbing up a mountain and you know, some rockfall 61 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:17,676 Speaker 1: event happens, and like a big rock will fall and 62 00:04:17,836 --> 00:04:20,596 Speaker 1: land on alleged twenty feet away from you, and most 63 00:04:20,596 --> 00:04:23,516 Speaker 1: people get freaked out by that kind of thing, like 64 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:27,236 Speaker 1: they have this emotional kind of adrenal reaction, and I 65 00:04:27,356 --> 00:04:30,396 Speaker 1: don't have that so much, And I wonder if that's unhealthy. 66 00:04:31,076 --> 00:04:33,436 Speaker 1: Was this just a natural trait that you had, or 67 00:04:33,956 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 1: did you feel like you were building it over time 68 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: as a kid. I feel like for me, I was 69 00:04:37,956 --> 00:04:40,956 Speaker 1: building it over time. Like there are certain climbs that 70 00:04:40,996 --> 00:04:43,956 Speaker 1: I go and do, climbs where I might fall twenty 71 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: thirty fifty feet at a time before I get caught 72 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 1: from the rope. That feels incredibly terrifying at first, early 73 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:52,756 Speaker 1: on in the season, but I get more and more 74 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:54,196 Speaker 1: used to it over time. So I think that can 75 00:04:54,236 --> 00:04:56,676 Speaker 1: happen within a season or on a certain climb, but 76 00:04:56,716 --> 00:04:59,476 Speaker 1: I think it can also happen in a way over 77 00:04:59,636 --> 00:05:02,156 Speaker 1: the length of your life. And so since I started 78 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 1: really young doing this stuff, I believe that that's why 79 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 1: I am the way I am. I guess. Yeah, that's 80 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:12,156 Speaker 1: so interesting, As you were simply describing that, I felt 81 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:14,756 Speaker 1: tingles in my fingers in a pit in my stomach 82 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 1: imagining being at that height, so sadly. Yeah, I think 83 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:21,716 Speaker 1: my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. Yeah, yeah, 84 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:26,236 Speaker 1: it's probably more healthy your way. When Tommy's twenty two, 85 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:28,396 Speaker 1: he gets invited to go on a climbing trip with 86 00:05:28,436 --> 00:05:32,636 Speaker 1: three other climbers to Kyrgyzstan, this beautiful mountainous country in 87 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:36,316 Speaker 1: Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, is of course excited for 88 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:38,996 Speaker 1: the challenge, but the real reason he wants to go 89 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:42,676 Speaker 1: is because of another climber on the trip, Beth Rodden. Yeah, 90 00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. I 91 00:05:45,596 --> 00:05:48,196 Speaker 1: would saying, we're really really kind of early on in 92 00:05:48,236 --> 00:05:50,556 Speaker 1: our dating period at that time, So this was during 93 00:05:50,556 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 1: the like still wooing her stage. Is that why you 94 00:05:53,036 --> 00:05:56,516 Speaker 1: were so excited to go? Absolutely? Yeah, okay, got it. 95 00:05:58,636 --> 00:06:00,716 Speaker 1: So can you paint a little bit of a scene 96 00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 1: for me about when you first arrived in Kyrgistan, Like 97 00:06:03,676 --> 00:06:06,716 Speaker 1: what is it like and what climbing lies ahead of you? Yeah, 98 00:06:06,756 --> 00:06:09,716 Speaker 1: so we flew in, come around the corner and we 99 00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:14,116 Speaker 1: see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever been 100 00:06:14,156 --> 00:06:17,636 Speaker 1: in a region like the Himalayas or something, the mountains, 101 00:06:17,676 --> 00:06:21,276 Speaker 1: they are just so big and so beautiful that it's surreal. 102 00:06:21,316 --> 00:06:23,156 Speaker 1: I mean, it looks like you're looking at a painting. 103 00:06:23,196 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 1: It looks completely unreal. And so those big snow covered 104 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,436 Speaker 1: mountains are in the background, and then these big rock spires, 105 00:06:29,436 --> 00:06:32,036 Speaker 1: these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, the kind of 106 00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:34,916 Speaker 1: thing that climbers dream of, were kind of in the foreground. 107 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:37,476 Speaker 1: So we flew and there was a bit of a 108 00:06:37,596 --> 00:06:41,076 Speaker 1: valley kind of below all of the rocks spires, and 109 00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:44,636 Speaker 1: so that's where we made our base camp. And some 110 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 1: of the people that live in the valley came and 111 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:50,836 Speaker 1: visited with us and brought us, you know, yak milk 112 00:06:50,876 --> 00:06:55,676 Speaker 1: and butter and fresh baked bread, and it was like, yeah, yeah, 113 00:06:55,676 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 1: it was pretty idealistic. Like they hadn't they had they 114 00:06:58,396 --> 00:07:01,596 Speaker 1: had encountered climbing teams like us in the past, because 115 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 1: this is the place that people had been coming and 116 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:06,796 Speaker 1: climbing for ten or fifteen years, so we knew that 117 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 1: we would encounter them. So we brought ways to play 118 00:07:09,716 --> 00:07:14,796 Speaker 1: with the kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, 119 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:17,596 Speaker 1: it was. It was absolutely beautiful. It's certainly sort of 120 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:20,716 Speaker 1: a dream trip. Everything I kind of expected and hoped 121 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 1: for at first. Can you describe the moment when you 122 00:07:24,996 --> 00:07:29,956 Speaker 1: realize that you were in danger. Yeah, so it's very distinct. 123 00:07:31,396 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 1: We had been in the valley for five or six days. 124 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:38,676 Speaker 1: We had sort of walked around and scope the rocks 125 00:07:38,676 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 1: and decided that we were going to do our warm 126 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:42,356 Speaker 1: up climb on this mountain, which is about a two 127 00:07:42,396 --> 00:07:45,716 Speaker 1: thousand foot nearly vertical rock cliff. And then we had 128 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:48,596 Speaker 1: spent the first day climbing about halfway up that wall, 129 00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 1: so a thousand feet up. We know the style of 130 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:53,916 Speaker 1: climbing we're doing. You climb one hundred or two hundred 131 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 1: feet up, and then you haul all of your equipment up, 132 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:01,556 Speaker 1: which is food, water, portal ledges. There's no horizontal places 133 00:08:01,596 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 1: to sleep, so you set up your portal ledges. And 134 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:06,476 Speaker 1: we had this hanging camp a thousand feet up this wall. 135 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: And that was actually the night of my birthday. Beth 136 00:08:09,796 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: presents me with this candle. We're seeing happy birthday. It's 137 00:08:12,796 --> 00:08:15,916 Speaker 1: like there's no light pollution at all in this place 138 00:08:15,956 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 1: because you're literally fifty miles from the nearest source of electricity, 139 00:08:21,676 --> 00:08:24,916 Speaker 1: and the stars are brilliant and these you know, the 140 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:28,796 Speaker 1: moonlight is illuminating these these snow covered peaks up valley 141 00:08:28,836 --> 00:08:32,276 Speaker 1: and it's Yeah, it's a pretty incredible scene. And so 142 00:08:32,316 --> 00:08:34,996 Speaker 1: we go to beds feeling like everything's great, and then 143 00:08:35,716 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 1: at very first light the next morning, we awake to gunshots, 144 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:43,756 Speaker 1: like just startled awake to gunshots. And first we thought 145 00:08:43,756 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 1: that it was just some hunters in the valley, probably, 146 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:49,796 Speaker 1: but then bullets started to hit this roof of rock 147 00:08:49,876 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 1: that was right above us, and so we realized that 148 00:08:52,116 --> 00:08:54,196 Speaker 1: they were actually shooting at us. They were close by. 149 00:08:55,356 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 1: We had a big camera with us with a long 150 00:08:58,396 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 1: telephoto lens, and so we pulled out that camera and 151 00:09:01,476 --> 00:09:03,996 Speaker 1: we could look down to the ground, almost like looking 152 00:09:04,036 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 1: through you know, binoculars, and we could see these heavily 153 00:09:08,916 --> 00:09:12,436 Speaker 1: armed militants on the ground. We felt very vulnerable, like 154 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:14,796 Speaker 1: we're expecting bullets to just rip through the bottom of 155 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:18,636 Speaker 1: the portal edge at any moment. Wow. So in that moment, 156 00:09:18,996 --> 00:09:22,796 Speaker 1: are you thinking, Okay, they might have missed slightly the 157 00:09:22,916 --> 00:09:26,036 Speaker 1: first with the first few shots, but you know we're 158 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 1: going to die. Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. 159 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 1: There's no way to run away them, and it's just 160 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:33,916 Speaker 1: complete vulnerability. It's like somebody shooting at you and you 161 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:38,516 Speaker 1: can't hide behind anything. Yeah, you're literally affixed to a 162 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:41,596 Speaker 1: vertical wall in a tent, right, there's literally no escape 163 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:44,756 Speaker 1: rut right, Yeah, I mean moving out of the way 164 00:09:44,796 --> 00:09:46,996 Speaker 1: would have been, you know, a several hour process to 165 00:09:47,756 --> 00:09:51,516 Speaker 1: just get up and around the corner or something. Okay, 166 00:09:51,556 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 1: So then so you hear this these gun shots. What 167 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:58,956 Speaker 1: happens next through our telephoto camera lens, we see them 168 00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 1: sort of waving at us to come down, and we 169 00:10:02,916 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 1: know that we have no other option. Basically, they've got 170 00:10:06,236 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 1: these big guns. They've proved that that they're good shots 171 00:10:09,636 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: with these guns, and so we're like, we have to 172 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: go down. So we have a discussion and we decide 173 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,316 Speaker 1: that John Dickey, who is the oldest member of our expedition, 174 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 1: will go down and try and talk to them. We're 175 00:10:20,996 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 1: just trying to be super optimistic at this point. Maybe 176 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:26,236 Speaker 1: they just want information, we don't really know. And so 177 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:30,916 Speaker 1: John starts descending down the wall. Takes him probably nearly 178 00:10:30,956 --> 00:10:34,276 Speaker 1: an hour, and he gets down there and we have 179 00:10:34,316 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 1: these two way radios and he had taken one of them. 180 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:39,996 Speaker 1: When he gets down there, he he just sounds very serious. 181 00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:43,476 Speaker 1: He radio's back to us and he's like, you guys 182 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 1: are just gonna have to come down. So the other 183 00:10:46,636 --> 00:10:49,556 Speaker 1: three of us just start descending down the wall, and 184 00:10:49,596 --> 00:10:52,156 Speaker 1: when we get to the ground, we're confronted with a 185 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:55,876 Speaker 1: pretty scary scene. I would say, there's two heavily armed 186 00:10:56,636 --> 00:11:01,996 Speaker 1: men that are wearing this combination of like army fatigues, 187 00:11:02,636 --> 00:11:05,356 Speaker 1: so they look pretty scary, but their demeanor is actually 188 00:11:05,476 --> 00:11:08,756 Speaker 1: pretty chill. They wait for us. We get to the 189 00:11:08,756 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 1: ground and they're just kind of sitting around, not really 190 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:14,036 Speaker 1: saying that much, and then and then they just kind 191 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:16,596 Speaker 1: of wave us on to follow them back to base camp. 192 00:11:17,356 --> 00:11:19,516 Speaker 1: A conflict had broken out in the country between the 193 00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 1: Kyrgi's army and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. Up on 194 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:25,956 Speaker 1: the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 195 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:28,756 Speaker 1: a Kyrgi soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 196 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:31,156 Speaker 1: his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 197 00:11:31,196 --> 00:11:33,636 Speaker 1: able to get a closer look at the soldier. He 198 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,356 Speaker 1: just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind of 199 00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: scared and very stern, and he had blood all over 200 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:42,596 Speaker 1: his pants. And I think there was that one moment 201 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: in there where John looked over at us and he's like, 202 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:48,396 Speaker 1: we're hostages. I think we're hostages, and so that's kind 203 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: of when it struck us. The militants waste no time. 204 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 1: They lead Tommy and Beth and the other climbers into 205 00:11:54,316 --> 00:11:57,076 Speaker 1: the mountain side at gunpoint, and as they start to 206 00:11:57,116 --> 00:11:59,996 Speaker 1: cross the river, a group of Kyrgi soldiers appear at 207 00:11:59,996 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 1: the top of the hill and start shooting at them. 208 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: This battle breaks out essentially, and we hide in this bush, 209 00:12:06,396 --> 00:12:10,996 Speaker 1: and Beth and myself and this Kurgy soldier end up 210 00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:13,996 Speaker 1: in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 211 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:17,996 Speaker 1: the rebels told us one by one to run up 212 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:23,116 Speaker 1: behind this boulder, and the Kurgy soldier went first, and 213 00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:25,236 Speaker 1: as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 214 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:29,236 Speaker 1: heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 215 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:31,636 Speaker 1: and they had just shot him in the shot him 216 00:12:31,636 --> 00:12:33,916 Speaker 1: in the head right there, and then the rest of 217 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 1: us had to go up and hide behind that boulder. 218 00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: As this battle sort of erupted around us. It was 219 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:40,956 Speaker 1: a full on like war scene. We were hiding behind 220 00:12:40,956 --> 00:12:43,596 Speaker 1: this boulder. The boulder was getting you know, bullets were 221 00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 1: ricocheting off the boulder. We were behind it, sitting on 222 00:12:46,716 --> 00:12:50,476 Speaker 1: the dead body of this other Kurgy soldier, and they 223 00:12:50,476 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 1: were shooting these these mortars across at us. I mean, 224 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:56,276 Speaker 1: we were kind of certain that we were going to 225 00:12:56,316 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: die at any moment. I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of 226 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 1: going from these immensely peaceful climbs in this expansive valley 227 00:13:07,236 --> 00:13:12,476 Speaker 1: too absolute life or death, insanity. What do you remember feeling? 228 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 1: Definitely writing on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 229 00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 1: is not like the rest of life at all. And 230 00:13:20,796 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 1: I think it was fear that was more intense and 231 00:13:24,956 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 1: far different than anything I had noticed. Like, in some 232 00:13:27,356 --> 00:13:30,276 Speaker 1: ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 233 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 1: my climbing life, but this was just way different. Tommy, 234 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:36,316 Speaker 1: Beth and their crew managed to make it out of 235 00:13:36,316 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive by 236 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:43,436 Speaker 1: two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors because 237 00:13:43,476 --> 00:13:46,036 Speaker 1: they don't speak the same language, but from what they 238 00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:48,516 Speaker 1: can glean, there's an older guy who seems to be 239 00:13:48,556 --> 00:13:52,836 Speaker 1: in charge, and then a teenager named Scherapov. During the day, 240 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 1: the militants lead them around and what ultimately ends up 241 00:13:55,756 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 1: being a big circle looking for hiding places, and we 242 00:13:59,596 --> 00:14:01,796 Speaker 1: don't have any food. We had to abandon all of 243 00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 1: our food, except I had managed to shove like five 244 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:07,716 Speaker 1: or six energy bars into my pocket. So each day 245 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 1: we would in the evening, we would split one of 246 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: those energy bars between the six of us, and that's 247 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:15,996 Speaker 1: the only food we had, and we do kind of 248 00:14:15,996 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 1: feel like we're all in it together, like we share 249 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:20,036 Speaker 1: our food with them. They didn't just take all of 250 00:14:20,036 --> 00:14:22,956 Speaker 1: our food. They shared it with us, those six, you know, 251 00:14:23,116 --> 00:14:28,236 Speaker 1: energy bars that we had, and the demeanor became pretty 252 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:30,956 Speaker 1: friendly a lot of the time. And then during the 253 00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:36,276 Speaker 1: daylight hours we would hide in usually just absolutely miserable 254 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 1: hiding spots like you know, buy rivers, under boulders. It 255 00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:44,196 Speaker 1: was always super cold, were our teeth were chattering all 256 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:47,636 Speaker 1: day long, every day, to the point where where our 257 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 1: jaws and our mouths got really sort We'd be sitting 258 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:53,996 Speaker 1: there hiding for fourteen hours of daylight or whatever, and 259 00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:56,676 Speaker 1: it would feel like a week. Did you ever worry 260 00:14:56,676 --> 00:14:59,116 Speaker 1: that you were going to die of hypothermia, so it's 261 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:01,716 Speaker 1: not just the potential of being killed, but also you 262 00:15:01,756 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 1: just might die from extreme conditions. Yeah, no, that was 263 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:07,276 Speaker 1: definitely a worry of ours. We were probably on the 264 00:15:07,356 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: verge most of the time, and we're at a point 265 00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 1: where where we can't really just sit through these conditions anymore. 266 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:18,396 Speaker 1: But then weirdly at times, I think this is sort 267 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 1: of a proven thing that happens when you go through 268 00:15:20,836 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 1: this severe hunger, as you have these moments of like 269 00:15:24,396 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 1: mental clarity, like you feel like you are almost more 270 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:30,796 Speaker 1: alive than ever as you're starving to death, your body 271 00:15:30,996 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 1: sort of starts to kick into this like survival mode, 272 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 1: and so you sort of an alternate between that and 273 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:42,036 Speaker 1: then other times of just feeling really lethargic and really 274 00:15:42,076 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: slow and you know, really hungry. So we just traveled 275 00:15:45,996 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 1: around like that for six nights, getting progressively weaker, and 276 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:53,476 Speaker 1: then finally on that last night, things are pretty desperate, 277 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:56,396 Speaker 1: and so we were left on this night with just 278 00:15:56,716 --> 00:16:01,396 Speaker 1: the young scared soldier Chapov, and told to climb up 279 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:04,996 Speaker 1: this incredibly steep mountain. It was, you know, true rock climbing, 280 00:16:04,996 --> 00:16:07,076 Speaker 1: Like it was kind of terrain that if you fell 281 00:16:07,116 --> 00:16:09,036 Speaker 1: on it didn't seem like you would stop. You would 282 00:16:09,556 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 1: continue falling until you got you know, bouncing down the 283 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:15,716 Speaker 1: mountain until you got to the bottom. And and Shariffov 284 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 1: was really scared. Um we were actually having to lead 285 00:16:19,476 --> 00:16:23,116 Speaker 1: the way because we're climbers. We would you know, grab 286 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:25,916 Speaker 1: his hand and pull him up over rock steps. We 287 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:29,156 Speaker 1: would point out footholds for him to step on. We 288 00:16:29,156 --> 00:16:31,316 Speaker 1: would sort of spot him in case he stumbled, we 289 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: could catch him so he didn't just fall down the mountain. 290 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:37,156 Speaker 1: And so in all of our minds like if if 291 00:16:37,156 --> 00:16:40,876 Speaker 1: there was a time to escape, this was it. So 292 00:16:40,916 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 1: I'm curious, and it seems like the very natural instinct 293 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 1: to help others was kicking in for you. Right, you're 294 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:50,556 Speaker 1: spotting the sky, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 295 00:16:51,356 --> 00:16:55,156 Speaker 1: Who are these competing feelings towards him and the situation 296 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,516 Speaker 1: leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 297 00:16:59,596 --> 00:17:02,836 Speaker 1: right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 298 00:17:02,956 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 1: a person who might ultimately lead to your death, if 299 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 1: you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance in 300 00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:11,436 Speaker 1: their situation. I mean, I think I think it felt 301 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 1: different at different times, Like at times I was like, 302 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: we should outlast this, We should be good human beings 303 00:17:16,436 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 1: as long as we can. In a way, these rebels, 304 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 1: I didn't see them as super evil people, especially Cherpov 305 00:17:22,396 --> 00:17:24,476 Speaker 1: who were with like he was just a he was younger, 306 00:17:24,556 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 1: or he was probably about my age or maybe even younger. 307 00:17:26,556 --> 00:17:28,836 Speaker 1: I think he was eighteen years old at the time. 308 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: He was a hired mercenario. He was obviously super frightened himself. 309 00:17:32,876 --> 00:17:35,076 Speaker 1: You know, Like, who's to say if I didn't grow 310 00:17:35,156 --> 00:17:36,956 Speaker 1: up in a circumstance, I wouldn't have been right there 311 00:17:36,996 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: with him. So I thought it was sort of morally 312 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:42,356 Speaker 1: wrong to try and take these guys lives. But I 313 00:17:42,396 --> 00:17:44,956 Speaker 1: think on this last night, clouds started to roll in 314 00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 1: and started to reign a tiny bit, and all of 315 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:50,356 Speaker 1: us were like, if we don't escape this scene pretty soon, 316 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:53,476 Speaker 1: we are going to succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as 317 00:17:53,476 --> 00:17:55,756 Speaker 1: we were getting to the top of the mountain, I 318 00:17:55,876 --> 00:18:00,516 Speaker 1: knew that our opportunity to push him was going to 319 00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 1: be gone soon. And Beth had been adamantly against killing 320 00:18:05,556 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 1: somebody this whole time, but it was getting pretty dire. 321 00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:11,436 Speaker 1: So I looked over her when we're at her, when 322 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: we were maybe fifty or one hundred feet below the 323 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:15,036 Speaker 1: top of this mountain, and I was like, do you 324 00:18:15,036 --> 00:18:18,436 Speaker 1: think I should And she didn't say anything, which to 325 00:18:18,476 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 1: me that meant that she thought she'd come around like 326 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 1: she thought that this was probably the right thing to do. 327 00:18:23,436 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 1: And so when he saw the top of the mountain 328 00:18:27,636 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 1: kind of close, he got a little bit excited. He 329 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 1: started to sort of rush up ahead of all of us. 330 00:18:34,316 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 1: He is in Sharipov and I then started to sort 331 00:18:39,996 --> 00:18:44,596 Speaker 1: of sneak up behind him. And he was so focused 332 00:18:44,636 --> 00:18:46,716 Speaker 1: on like staying attached to the mountain, you know, like 333 00:18:46,716 --> 00:18:48,596 Speaker 1: grabbing the right hand holds and stuff, that he really 334 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:50,996 Speaker 1: didn't even notice me. And I ran up behind him, 335 00:18:51,036 --> 00:18:53,876 Speaker 1: and I just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged 336 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: backwards on it, and he started to fly off off 337 00:18:56,316 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 1: the mountain side. He fell about twenty feet, hit this 338 00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:01,596 Speaker 1: ledge that was below us, bounced off of it like 339 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 1: the slipping ledge, and then out of sight, just in 340 00:19:04,716 --> 00:19:10,116 Speaker 1: the blackness. We'll be right there. With a slight change 341 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 1: of plants, I'm maya shunker and this is a slight 342 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:20,516 Speaker 1: change of plans. Tommy called Wells made the bold decision 343 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:23,876 Speaker 1: to push one of his captors off the cliff. Years later, 344 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:27,116 Speaker 1: a journalist working on the story discovers that Cheripov did 345 00:19:27,156 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 1: not actually die from the fall, but at the time 346 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:34,116 Speaker 1: Tommy assumes he's killed Cheripov. And for Tommy, the reality 347 00:19:34,156 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 1: of what he just did comes crashing down on him. 348 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 1: It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 349 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 350 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:48,636 Speaker 1: like closing my eyes incredibly tight and like seeing like 351 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:52,556 Speaker 1: weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like it's 352 00:19:52,556 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 1: almost hard to explain it. It was just it was 353 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 1: just like emotionally overwhelming that I've never experienced. You know. 354 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 1: Beth was really comforting me. I mean she like I 355 00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 1: like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 356 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:07,116 Speaker 1: and she was. And I didn't know if she suddenly 357 00:20:07,116 --> 00:20:08,916 Speaker 1: think that I was like this evil person because we 358 00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:10,796 Speaker 1: haven't really been able to talk it out what I 359 00:20:10,836 --> 00:20:12,796 Speaker 1: was about to do. So she was the one was 360 00:20:12,796 --> 00:20:16,116 Speaker 1: like you, you're my hero. You We're gonna be okay 361 00:20:16,156 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: because of you, and trying to say the right things 362 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:22,236 Speaker 1: to help me in that moment. The moment doesn't last long, though, 363 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: with one of their captors pushed off the mountain and 364 00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 1: the other one out of sight. Tommy and his team 365 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:29,396 Speaker 1: know they need to seize the moment and get out 366 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,956 Speaker 1: of there as quickly as possible, so they run down 367 00:20:31,996 --> 00:20:35,076 Speaker 1: the mountain and find safety at a military outpost, and 368 00:20:35,156 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 1: eventually they all make it back to the US. Almost immediately, 369 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:43,236 Speaker 1: Tommy's dad notices a change in him. I mean, I 370 00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 1: felt like for a time I sort of receded into 371 00:20:46,956 --> 00:20:51,036 Speaker 1: a ball. I didn't talk to anybody except for Beth 372 00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:55,916 Speaker 1: about personal things. But Beth and a few other close friends. 373 00:20:56,436 --> 00:20:58,436 Speaker 1: I didn't talk to my parents that much about it, 374 00:20:58,516 --> 00:21:00,236 Speaker 1: So I think he probably had that take more than 375 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 1: most because he knew me a lot. And then I 376 00:21:02,996 --> 00:21:07,116 Speaker 1: just didn't want to discuss this with him. What aspect 377 00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:10,516 Speaker 1: of the experience made you most uncomfortable talking about with 378 00:21:10,556 --> 00:21:14,356 Speaker 1: your dad? I think I was just I just didn't 379 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:19,876 Speaker 1: know how to think about the experience. Like I didn't 380 00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 1: know for a while whether whether I, you know, it, 381 00:21:22,476 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 1: was kind of an evil person for having done this thing, 382 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 1: or whether I was kind of a hero for saving us. 383 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: I was both. But I'd also learned. I think very 384 00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 1: few people get to find out how they will react 385 00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: and super intense experiences like that, everybody sort of wonders. 386 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 1: And I now knew that when when things are really bad, 387 00:21:42,396 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 1: I was able to kind of like rise to the 388 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: occasion and do something that was really hard for me 389 00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:50,916 Speaker 1: and really fight for survival in this way that I 390 00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:52,956 Speaker 1: think I was. I was a bit proud of at 391 00:21:52,956 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: the time, but I didn't want to seem proud. I 392 00:21:56,596 --> 00:21:58,556 Speaker 1: didn't want to feel I didn't want to feel proud 393 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:00,796 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But I think kind of 394 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:02,996 Speaker 1: deep down I was a little bit proud, like I 395 00:22:03,036 --> 00:22:08,036 Speaker 1: felt empowered. Interesting, so, so did the adversity faced in 396 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:12,996 Speaker 1: Kyrgyzstan change your understanding of yourself or actually just reinforce 397 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:15,476 Speaker 1: what you had believed all along about what you were 398 00:22:15,596 --> 00:22:20,316 Speaker 1: capable of. I think it it reinforced more than changed, 399 00:22:20,396 --> 00:22:23,116 Speaker 1: but it also revealed a lot. It opened up a 400 00:22:23,116 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 1: ton of curiosity, like I wanted to learn more. I 401 00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 1: wanted to in some ways get back to that place 402 00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: of being in this incredibly meditative like flow state that 403 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:39,036 Speaker 1: I felt like I had experienced it at times in Kyrgyzstan. 404 00:22:39,116 --> 00:22:41,996 Speaker 1: I think in some ways my climbing ever since then 405 00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:45,476 Speaker 1: has been an effort to almost get back there in 406 00:22:45,476 --> 00:22:49,676 Speaker 1: a way and learn more. Yeah, almost like an addiction. Potentially. 407 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:54,916 Speaker 1: I think I saw Kyrgyzstan as this like fuel to 408 00:22:56,036 --> 00:22:59,196 Speaker 1: put me on this higher plane where I could like 409 00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:05,316 Speaker 1: use that adversity to fuel my life in a lot 410 00:23:05,316 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 1: of ways, and and sort of my pursuit of my raft, 411 00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:14,116 Speaker 1: which continues to be climbing to this day. Yeah, man, 412 00:23:14,276 --> 00:23:16,836 Speaker 1: you are such a climber at heart, Like the fact 413 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:19,476 Speaker 1: that you were You're describing Kergusson as being a flow 414 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: state in which you had like you know, deep mental acuity, 415 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:27,556 Speaker 1: and you're that that's as a layperson, right, that is 416 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:31,996 Speaker 1: a truly astonishing way of interpreting those events. Yeah. Well 417 00:23:31,996 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 1: I didn't go there first. I probably win a lot 418 00:23:34,916 --> 00:23:38,036 Speaker 1: of places. Yeah yeah, and that's the place that I 419 00:23:38,156 --> 00:23:41,156 Speaker 1: ended up finding to be the one that suited me. 420 00:23:41,556 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 1: But if you think about it, like you know, I 421 00:23:43,636 --> 00:23:45,916 Speaker 1: can I can equate it to situations as a child 422 00:23:45,956 --> 00:23:47,916 Speaker 1: where I was up on some big wall with my 423 00:23:48,036 --> 00:23:51,836 Speaker 1: dad and you know, surrounded by some incredible thunderstorm and 424 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:54,196 Speaker 1: things get really real and my dad would look at 425 00:23:54,196 --> 00:23:55,956 Speaker 1: me in these kind of moments with these wild eyes 426 00:23:55,956 --> 00:23:57,796 Speaker 1: and be like, this is what brings us to life. 427 00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:02,836 Speaker 1: So that was built into me from a really young age. Interesting, Okay, Yeah, 428 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:04,916 Speaker 1: I think my parents were like, why don't we go inside? 429 00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:10,516 Speaker 1: Now there's thunder you would prefer not to die? Um? Okay? Anyway, anyway, 430 00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 1: can you describe more? I think for a lot of 431 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 1: listeners will be curious what you mean by this flow 432 00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:20,596 Speaker 1: state that you experienced in Kyrgyzstan, Like, what what does 433 00:24:20,596 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 1: it feel like? What were you what were you trying 434 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:26,556 Speaker 1: to reach psychologically when you came back and started climbing again. 435 00:24:28,396 --> 00:24:31,356 Speaker 1: To me, that flow state in its most pure form 436 00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:37,236 Speaker 1: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 437 00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:41,276 Speaker 1: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a 438 00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:44,676 Speaker 1: cute you notice detail in this incredible way. It's like 439 00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:51,516 Speaker 1: a physiological change that is incredibly easy to notice when 440 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:54,836 Speaker 1: it happens. You know, it's like in the moment where 441 00:24:55,756 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: all odds are against you, suddenly it's like the clarity 442 00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 1: comes and it's completely surreal and completely magical. I feel 443 00:25:04,036 --> 00:25:06,396 Speaker 1: like I had experienced that in Kyrgyzstan, and so I 444 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 1: was trying to get back there in climbing, but I wasn't. 445 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 1: I wasn't finding that flow state in that way. So 446 00:25:11,476 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 1: I did start to shift some of my climbing to 447 00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:17,276 Speaker 1: like these mega endurance days where you are out, you know, 448 00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 1: sleep deprived for you know, fifty hours in a row, 449 00:25:20,116 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: and a lot of times these climbs would take four 450 00:25:22,276 --> 00:25:24,076 Speaker 1: or five days, and I started to do them in 451 00:25:24,436 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 1: one day, like twenty four hour pushes. Okay, So I'm 452 00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:32,516 Speaker 1: pausing only because if I were an alien descending on 453 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 1: this planet, and I heard that there's this guy named 454 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 1: Tommy Caldwell who went through a harrowing experience in Kyrgyzstan, 455 00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:43,596 Speaker 1: who's now trying to replicate aspects of that trip on 456 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:47,796 Speaker 1: his own volition in normal life. I think I think 457 00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:50,756 Speaker 1: the alien would bat and I that's all. It's It's 458 00:25:50,836 --> 00:25:54,796 Speaker 1: why I admire climbers so much. It's the relentless focus 459 00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:59,036 Speaker 1: and resolve. And again, I flirted as a musician with 460 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:04,956 Speaker 1: flow right in my childhood, and I, in my own way, 461 00:26:04,996 --> 00:26:08,956 Speaker 1: I crave that too. There's there's something about engaging with art, 462 00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 1: and I guess I see climbing as an art form 463 00:26:10,796 --> 00:26:13,196 Speaker 1: too that can put you in a certain mental state 464 00:26:13,236 --> 00:26:15,876 Speaker 1: that's really hard to You can't you can't recruit it 465 00:26:15,916 --> 00:26:18,236 Speaker 1: in daily life at will. Right, it's not. It's one 466 00:26:18,276 --> 00:26:22,036 Speaker 1: of these elusive things that happens when all the stars align, 467 00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:25,556 Speaker 1: right at least that's how it's been in my own experience. Yeah, 468 00:26:25,596 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 1: Now I can tell you have like you have the 469 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:30,156 Speaker 1: craving and the thirst for it, And yeah, I felt 470 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:32,156 Speaker 1: like I need to pursue that a lot in my 471 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 1: life since then. But in some ways I never got 472 00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: back to that place that I was in Kyrgyzstan, like 473 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:41,276 Speaker 1: that flow state that I experienced that really comes from 474 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:45,716 Speaker 1: this you can really only access when when your life 475 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 1: really is on the line up. Even though I was 476 00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:50,156 Speaker 1: pushing way harder than I was before, I wasn't. I 477 00:26:50,236 --> 00:26:54,716 Speaker 1: wasn't ever getting back to that, to that place, to 478 00:26:54,796 --> 00:26:58,636 Speaker 1: that incredible flow state. Tommy spent the next year after 479 00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:02,196 Speaker 1: his return from Kyrgyzstan trying to access that high, that 480 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:05,756 Speaker 1: flow state in his climbs. Whatever downtime he had, he 481 00:27:05,876 --> 00:27:08,796 Speaker 1: spent with Beth in this little fixer upper cabin they 482 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 1: bought the mountains of Colorado. Then one day I was 483 00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: working on the house. I was trying to use the 484 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:15,596 Speaker 1: tools and not knowing how to use them properly. I 485 00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 1: ended up chopping off my index finger on my left 486 00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:22,956 Speaker 1: hand with a table saw. So this is kind of 487 00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:26,796 Speaker 1: like worst case scenario. Can you describe the moment where 488 00:27:26,796 --> 00:27:29,116 Speaker 1: you realize that your index finger is no longer on 489 00:27:29,156 --> 00:27:33,796 Speaker 1: your hand. I felt this numbness, and I looked down 490 00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 1: at my left hand and saw that the finger was 491 00:27:36,436 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: completely severed, like I didn't know where the other part 492 00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:41,916 Speaker 1: of it was. So I think I immediately panicked. I 493 00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:43,596 Speaker 1: yelled to Beth. I was just like, oh, I just 494 00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:47,836 Speaker 1: cut off my finger, and and she came over and 495 00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 1: we found it like laying on the ground, ran into 496 00:27:51,076 --> 00:27:53,276 Speaker 1: the house, put it on ice, and drove to the hospital. 497 00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:56,276 Speaker 1: What is going through your head on the drive to 498 00:27:56,316 --> 00:27:59,996 Speaker 1: the hospital, I mean I was. I was certainly panicking. 499 00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:02,556 Speaker 1: I mean all I could think about was climbing. Like 500 00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:04,516 Speaker 1: I had gotten to this place where I was, I 501 00:28:04,636 --> 00:28:07,516 Speaker 1: was a professional climber. I was living kind of my 502 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:10,276 Speaker 1: ultimate life. I had all this curiosity about where I 503 00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:13,156 Speaker 1: could take it. It was sort of my coping mechanism 504 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:16,036 Speaker 1: for Kyrgyzstan in some ways, like this was the thing 505 00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:18,876 Speaker 1: that I could focus on that could both distract me 506 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 1: and empower me, and that was what was keeping me 507 00:28:22,516 --> 00:28:26,036 Speaker 1: happy and stable in life. And then suddenly maybe that 508 00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:30,436 Speaker 1: has gone too. So I was panicking. I mean, at first, 509 00:28:30,436 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 1: we're just we're just holding on to hope. I had 510 00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: heard stories about people chopping off fingers and then reattaching 511 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:38,596 Speaker 1: them and everything being just fine. You know, like finger 512 00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:42,716 Speaker 1: reattachment surgery is usually relatively successful thing, at least it 513 00:28:42,796 --> 00:28:45,796 Speaker 1: was in my mind. The doctor came into the room 514 00:28:46,316 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 1: and he you know, sat Beth and me down and 515 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:52,116 Speaker 1: he's like, we've done everything we can. Your finger is dead. 516 00:28:52,156 --> 00:28:54,836 Speaker 1: We're going to do one final surgery and remove it. 517 00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:57,996 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sorry. And he was a climber. 518 00:28:58,036 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 1: Actually our doctor ended up being a climber as well, 519 00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:03,516 Speaker 1: and he and so he along with that, he said 520 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 1: that he told us that he's like, you should start 521 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 1: thinking about what else you want to do in life, 522 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:09,476 Speaker 1: because you're not going to you're not going to be 523 00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:12,836 Speaker 1: able to like be a professional climber anymore. And when 524 00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:15,596 Speaker 1: you first heard that, do you agree with him? I mean, 525 00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:17,756 Speaker 1: did you believe that that was going to be the case? Well, 526 00:29:17,916 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 1: I mean I think I heard that, and I was 527 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:24,476 Speaker 1: just like incredibly sad and trying to absorb that. I mean, 528 00:29:24,796 --> 00:29:26,596 Speaker 1: once again, I feel like this has been a theme 529 00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:28,356 Speaker 1: in my life. I have these things that are said 530 00:29:28,436 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 1: or things that happened to me that are almost like 531 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:32,636 Speaker 1: too grand for me to comprehend in the moment, and 532 00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:34,516 Speaker 1: it takes a long time to really figure it out. 533 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:38,436 Speaker 1: But he left the room, and then Beth looked over 534 00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:40,476 Speaker 1: at me and she's like, fuck that guy, he has 535 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:42,876 Speaker 1: no idea what what you're capable of? It. That was 536 00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:44,676 Speaker 1: like the perfect thing to say, you know, I think 537 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:47,196 Speaker 1: I came out of that hospital with like kind of 538 00:29:47,196 --> 00:29:51,396 Speaker 1: this conviction that was driven partially from like this idea 539 00:29:51,436 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: that I might be able to overcome, but also driven 540 00:29:53,316 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 1: a lot by the fear that I just lost this 541 00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 1: thing that was incredibly important to me, and I wanted 542 00:29:58,236 --> 00:29:59,956 Speaker 1: to do everything I could, like I might as well 543 00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:02,476 Speaker 1: do everything I can at that point to try and 544 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:06,796 Speaker 1: prove him wrong. Do you think you're experiencing Kyrgyzstan increased 545 00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:09,436 Speaker 1: your resolve to give climbing another go? You think you 546 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 1: would have actually tried if that experience hadn't happened and 547 00:30:12,116 --> 00:30:16,436 Speaker 1: you hadn't seen your limits. Um. I think what it 548 00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:20,076 Speaker 1: did for me is that it made me not fear 549 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:24,076 Speaker 1: failure in a weird way, like I'd had to confront 550 00:30:24,356 --> 00:30:26,956 Speaker 1: the worst things that I can imagine in my life 551 00:30:26,996 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and in some ways it 552 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:31,116 Speaker 1: like wasn't so bad, you know. I mean it was, 553 00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:33,516 Speaker 1: it was really bad in some ways, but in other ways, 554 00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 1: I'm like I lived through it. I can find strength 555 00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 1: through this. And that drive, that drive that you can 556 00:30:40,316 --> 00:30:44,636 Speaker 1: feel only in those moments is it's like this moment 557 00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:47,236 Speaker 1: that you have to seize, you know. It's like that 558 00:30:47,316 --> 00:30:49,636 Speaker 1: only lasts for so long, and so you have to 559 00:30:49,676 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 1: capture it, absorb it and let it, let it like 560 00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:57,636 Speaker 1: push you forward. Yeah. Yeah, a big change can do that. Well, yeah, 561 00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:02,796 Speaker 1: what were those early first few climbing days, Like, so 562 00:31:02,836 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 1: I went straight to the climbing gym, I think from 563 00:31:04,876 --> 00:31:10,036 Speaker 1: the hospital, Like I don't only think we would. I've 564 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:13,156 Speaker 1: been You're so passionate about it, you couldn't wait to 565 00:31:13,236 --> 00:31:15,236 Speaker 1: get back on. Yeah. I mean I've been laying in 566 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:17,836 Speaker 1: a hospital bed for two weeks, so I was pretty 567 00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:20,316 Speaker 1: excited to move. And then the doctor had told me 568 00:31:20,356 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 1: that since the finger was gone, I couldn't really do 569 00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:24,756 Speaker 1: any more harm. And so I was really curious to 570 00:31:24,756 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 1: see how my you know, newly remodeled hand was going 571 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:31,476 Speaker 1: to work. And we went straight to the gym and 572 00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:34,036 Speaker 1: it was. It was really hard at first, and I 573 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:35,956 Speaker 1: was like, okay, this is a starting point. I can 574 00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:40,036 Speaker 1: I can take this and improve on it. And then 575 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:43,396 Speaker 1: you know, I went back to the climbing gym at first, 576 00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:46,236 Speaker 1: like basically every day, and each day I would feel 577 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:48,036 Speaker 1: a little bit stronger and a little bit stronger, and 578 00:31:48,036 --> 00:31:49,956 Speaker 1: before I knew it, I was sort of exceeding my 579 00:31:49,996 --> 00:31:53,596 Speaker 1: own expectations and that started this pretty incredible flywheel where 580 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, this is actually working. My strength 581 00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:58,476 Speaker 1: is coming back. And within a couple of months, I 582 00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:01,796 Speaker 1: actually was back at the level of climbing that I 583 00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 1: had been before I chopped off my finger, Like I 584 00:32:03,836 --> 00:32:06,596 Speaker 1: went back to other climbs that I had had a 585 00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:09,076 Speaker 1: climbing project, and I was able to do them again, 586 00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:11,316 Speaker 1: and I was like, Wow, this is working. I can't 587 00:32:11,316 --> 00:32:14,516 Speaker 1: believe I'm overcoming. This is so exciting. And then I 588 00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: didn't stop there. I just kept on getting better and better, 589 00:32:18,556 --> 00:32:20,956 Speaker 1: and you know, in some ways it was like a 590 00:32:21,116 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 1: super magical time for me. There's no manual for how 591 00:32:25,716 --> 00:32:28,556 Speaker 1: to climb with nine fingers, so you're also having to 592 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 1: relearn key form elements of climbing, right, how does that happen? 593 00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:38,356 Speaker 1: Like do you have to fully adjust your strategy like 594 00:32:38,396 --> 00:32:42,076 Speaker 1: the way that you climb a wall. Yeah, I mean 595 00:32:42,116 --> 00:32:45,876 Speaker 1: it's experimental. Climbing is always experimental, like you're always playing 596 00:32:45,876 --> 00:32:49,116 Speaker 1: with how to do moves differently, and so I was 597 00:32:49,156 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 1: just doing that but without a finger. You know, I 598 00:32:51,756 --> 00:32:55,236 Speaker 1: sort of cherished that experimenting, Like my dad actually welded 599 00:32:55,276 --> 00:32:59,196 Speaker 1: me up this specific finger strength like weightlifting machine just 600 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:01,716 Speaker 1: for your fingers though, and so I started using that 601 00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:05,396 Speaker 1: a bunch and I got more more scientific about building 602 00:33:05,476 --> 00:33:10,276 Speaker 1: finger strength. Okay, so you just side to climb one 603 00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:14,156 Speaker 1: of the most impossible rock faces I think in the world, 604 00:33:14,356 --> 00:33:17,036 Speaker 1: is that right, I mean, the Dawn Wall. Most people 605 00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:20,876 Speaker 1: deemed it impossible. And I want to know what was 606 00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:24,436 Speaker 1: your motivation for that? What were you hoping to achieve? Yeah, 607 00:33:24,476 --> 00:33:26,796 Speaker 1: I mean so this was after my you know, after 608 00:33:26,836 --> 00:33:29,636 Speaker 1: I came back from chopping off my finger. You know, 609 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:31,316 Speaker 1: that was sort of when I was kept just doing 610 00:33:31,316 --> 00:33:34,156 Speaker 1: harder and harder roots, and I became the person that 611 00:33:34,236 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 1: knew more about big wall free climbing on El Capitan 612 00:33:37,676 --> 00:33:39,316 Speaker 1: than any you know, I'd spend more time up there, 613 00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:44,476 Speaker 1: I'd done more roots than anybody. The Dawn Wall, it 614 00:33:44,556 --> 00:33:47,436 Speaker 1: is by far the hardest big wall free climb in 615 00:33:47,476 --> 00:33:50,636 Speaker 1: the world to anybody except for me at the time. 616 00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:52,796 Speaker 1: Just look like a pane of glass, Like you look 617 00:33:52,876 --> 00:33:54,396 Speaker 1: up at the wall and you're like there's nothing to 618 00:33:54,396 --> 00:33:56,636 Speaker 1: hold onto. There's no way you could ever climb this thing. 619 00:33:57,596 --> 00:33:59,076 Speaker 1: Like I said, I had spent so much time up 620 00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:01,396 Speaker 1: there that I knew that sometimes these little edges formed 621 00:34:01,436 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 1: on these faces that looked totally blank from below. But 622 00:34:05,116 --> 00:34:06,996 Speaker 1: this is just it was such a big scale that 623 00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:11,836 Speaker 1: piecing it together was this incredible puzzle, which ended up 624 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:14,836 Speaker 1: taking me a year just to figure out the route, 625 00:34:14,876 --> 00:34:19,036 Speaker 1: and then another like seven years to build the strength 626 00:34:19,036 --> 00:34:22,516 Speaker 1: and everything to pull it together. I guess I saw 627 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:25,556 Speaker 1: pushing that venue to be the one place in the 628 00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:28,636 Speaker 1: world where I could really explore something that nobody else 629 00:34:28,756 --> 00:34:33,676 Speaker 1: had At any point, did you experience the intensity of 630 00:34:33,716 --> 00:34:37,276 Speaker 1: the Kyrgyzstan flow state when you were climbing the down wall. 631 00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:40,076 Speaker 1: I feel like I did actually on the final on 632 00:34:40,116 --> 00:34:44,596 Speaker 1: the final go, like when we successfully climbed to the thing. 633 00:34:44,676 --> 00:34:46,556 Speaker 1: So me and my partner Kevin Jorgenson, you know, we 634 00:34:47,116 --> 00:34:50,516 Speaker 1: spent seven years. We would fix ropes to the wall, 635 00:34:50,556 --> 00:34:52,116 Speaker 1: and we would to send up and down the ropes, 636 00:34:52,156 --> 00:34:54,316 Speaker 1: and we would try all the different sections and we 637 00:34:54,316 --> 00:34:57,076 Speaker 1: would learn it all. And then when we finally went 638 00:34:57,196 --> 00:35:00,076 Speaker 1: up and successfully climbed the route, I think when I 639 00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:03,676 Speaker 1: climbed those pitches, it was this moment of incredible flow, 640 00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:07,396 Speaker 1: like sudden. There was so much pressure and anxiety and 641 00:35:07,516 --> 00:35:12,236 Speaker 1: excitement wrapped up in the seven years of preparing for 642 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:17,036 Speaker 1: this that when it happened, it felt magical, like that 643 00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:20,996 Speaker 1: clarity merged. I felt weightless. There was this incredible flow. 644 00:35:21,116 --> 00:35:47,636 Speaker 1: It was yeah, very magical. Hey, thanks for listening. See 645 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:49,956 Speaker 1: you next week. When I talked with Megan Phelps Roper, 646 00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:53,556 Speaker 1: she grew up a develout believer in the Westboro Baptist Church, 647 00:35:53,836 --> 00:35:56,676 Speaker 1: one of the most rapid hate groups in America, but 648 00:35:56,796 --> 00:35:59,516 Speaker 1: then in her mid twenties she walked away from it all. 649 00:36:00,236 --> 00:36:02,876 Speaker 1: It felt like this physical like like I had a 650 00:36:02,956 --> 00:36:06,716 Speaker 1: giant boulder sitting on my chest and I couldn't breathe, 651 00:36:06,756 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 1: and I couldn't see around it, and I had no 652 00:36:09,476 --> 00:36:12,396 Speaker 1: vision of the future. I had no idea what my 653 00:36:12,436 --> 00:36:24,276 Speaker 1: life was going to look like. A slight change of 654 00:36:24,316 --> 00:36:27,636 Speaker 1: Plans is created an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. 655 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:32,156 Speaker 1: Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer 656 00:36:32,276 --> 00:36:36,996 Speaker 1: Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, executive 657 00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:41,316 Speaker 1: producers Mia Lavelle and Justine Lange. Senior editor Jan Guera 658 00:36:41,716 --> 00:36:45,676 Speaker 1: and sound design and mixed engineers Ben Taliday and Jason Gambrel. 659 00:36:46,596 --> 00:36:49,276 Speaker 1: Thanks also to Louis Gara who wrote our theme song, 660 00:36:49,436 --> 00:36:53,116 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music 661 00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:57,076 Speaker 1: from Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks 662 00:36:57,156 --> 00:36:59,996 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a slight change of 663 00:36:59,996 --> 00:37:11,996 Speaker 1: plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. I have to 664 00:37:11,996 --> 00:37:13,516 Speaker 1: say I'm a little bit I was a little bit 665 00:37:13,596 --> 00:37:16,476 Speaker 1: sheepish about doing this interview because I was like a 666 00:37:16,476 --> 00:37:18,876 Speaker 1: budding concert violinist as a kid, and then when I 667 00:37:18,916 --> 00:37:21,716 Speaker 1: was fifteen, I had a hand injury in which I 668 00:37:21,756 --> 00:37:25,436 Speaker 1: tore tendons in my hand, and doctors told me that 669 00:37:25,476 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 1: I could never play again. So my life had to 670 00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:30,156 Speaker 1: take a totally different route from that point forward. But 671 00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:32,236 Speaker 1: I feel like you would have been the dude to 672 00:37:32,276 --> 00:37:35,276 Speaker 1: play the violin with like four fingers and like crush it. 673 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:38,836 Speaker 1: So I just feel like, yeah, didn't really step up. 674 00:37:38,876 --> 00:37:40,796 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, the doctor said I can't play, 675 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:44,596 Speaker 1: I guess I won't play. But anyway, some of us are. 676 00:37:45,316 --> 00:37:47,236 Speaker 1: I'm glad we could start the interview by me