1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: On the night of July twenty third, two thousand and seven, 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Jamal true Love was hanging out in the common area 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: of San Francisco's Sunnydale Projects with his younger brother, Joshua. 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Jamal's friend sel Kuka, drove up intoxicated, ripping off the 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: side view mirror from Joshua's car. Jamal got between Cel 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: and his brother. Then gunfire in the air would send 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: Cel into an alcohol fueled rage. In search of a 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: gun himself, Jamal tried to come sell again, who pushed 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: him away and punched another man. Frustrated and fed up, 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: Jamal left the scene, only to turn in time to 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: witness his friend Cell being gunned down in the street. Now, 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: since snitching is a surefire away to be sent to 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: the same fate, Jamal kept his mouth shut. Cel's cousin, 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: Priscilla Lualamaga, would go downtown to identify the shooter she 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: claimed to see from her second story window, only to 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: pass over Jamal's mugshot that was in plain sight. Police 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: pressured her to name Jamal so they could coerce the 18 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: identity of the shooter. Either he would name the killer 19 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: or he'd go down for the murder. Himself. Jamal would 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: receive fifty years to life. The prosecutor's closing argument would 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: point to l Wallamaga's bravery in light of the supposed 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: thread of Jamal Truelove. This comment, unsupported by evidence and 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: unobjected to by counsel, would ultimately lead to a new 24 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: trial in which Jamal's new lawyers would be able to 25 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: successfully argue that ballistic evidence at the autopsy report proved 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: that the shooter was out of the Wallamaga's second story view. 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: Jamal was finally set free in twenty fifteen. This is 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. That's me. I'm your host, and today 30 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: I'm very excited because this this is a story I've 31 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: wanted to tell from quite some time, and that's primarily 32 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: because of the person who survived this incredible ordeal, Jamal Truelove. 33 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: He has the best name on top of everything else. 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: So Jamal, welcome, Hey, thanks for having me. 35 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: Jason. 36 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, Like I always say, I'm sorry you have 37 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: to be here, but I'm really happy that you are here. 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: So Jamal, this story touches me on a personal level 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 1: because you were in the entertainment business before this horrible 40 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: misidentification and all the other things that went wrong happened 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: to you. Can you talk a little bit about that? 42 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: Because you grew up in San Francisco. 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, grew up in San Francisco Sunnydale Projects. Always 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: wanted to get into entertainment within music and acting, and. 45 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: The ball was starting to bounce your way, so to speak. Right, 46 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: because at the time of this incident, you had been 47 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: recently featured on the reality TV show Popped, the show 48 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: called I Love New York Too. Right, you were just 49 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: a kid from the project with no connections, but you 50 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: were making it happen anyway. How did you do that? 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: Well, initially I was recording music. My friend had a 52 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: studio which he would lend me some time to get 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: into actually record, and then I had an opportunity to 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: audition for this character for this show called I Love 55 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: New York Too. So I figured if I could get 56 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: on the show and put a name to a face, 57 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: then I will get the exposure that I need to 58 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: shine on to my music and to ultimately get into film. 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: And sure enough you had now gone and shot this show. 60 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: Which did you shoot in La or yeah, it was 61 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: based in La and so this was like an exciting 62 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: time for you. How old were you at the time, Jamal. 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: Well, I started recording music when I was sixteen years old. 64 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: When I ended up landing on the show, I was freshly. 65 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: Twenty one, So a kid with big dreams and aspirations 66 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: and you know, the ability to really manifest those things. 67 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: And I think people let meet you now still see 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: that same spark. It makes it a certain way. It 69 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: makes this wrong for conviction more tragic. So, Jamal, your 70 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: life took a terrible turn because of events that occurred 71 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: around eleven pm on July twenty third of two thousand 72 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: and seven. And of course you know what I'm referring to, 73 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: but it was that night that twenty eight year old 74 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: sel Kuka, was a resident in your housing project, was 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: shot nine times. How did this happen? How did you 76 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: find out about it? And how did you get misidentified 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: as the shooter. 78 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: We were all kicking it in the projects in the 79 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: area that would typically chill at and the incident had 80 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 2: happened between Sale Kuka and my little brother Joshua. Sale 81 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: was intoxicated driving up the street where he came real 82 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: close to my brother's car and ripped off his Sime mirror, 83 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: and you know, I've seen it but didn't think too 84 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 2: much of it. Then somebody yelled down to me like 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 2: there was some type of altercation between him and my brother. 86 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: So I come through to diffuse the situation. I seen 87 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: how my brother was contorting his face. Sells, one of 88 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: my good friends. He's got some liquor in them, so 89 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, he's ramped up. He's not trying to take 90 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: no blame, and they're getting closer to each other where 91 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: it's gonna end up, you know, turning into a fight. 92 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: So I intervened, you know, I told both of them chill, relaxed. 93 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: Sale was hyped up to start being kind of a 94 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: crowd people looking on, and next you know, we hear 95 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: some gunshots going off kind of like I guess in 96 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: the air, and I think, you know that field Sell 97 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: that much more to feel some type of way, and 98 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 2: he started heading down saying that he was gonna go 99 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 2: get a gun. So me, I remember some of my 100 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 2: other friends used to you know, kind of contain his 101 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: anger when he's in this type of stake. So me 102 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: trying to prevent anything from escalating. I kind of followed him, 103 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: and he was asking somebody one of our other friends 104 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: to give him a gun, and I'm telling him, no, like, bro, 105 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: there ain't no reason for all of that. But he like, 106 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: you know, m mess out here shooting and I'm like that 107 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: ain't got nothing to do with us or this situation. 108 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: So I got like close up on him. I like 109 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 2: held him, like, you know, in a kind of bear hug, 110 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: and he's like way bigger than me. I'm probably like 111 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty pounds soaking wet at that point, 112 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: and he's like two twenty two thirty at least, and 113 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 2: he's listening, but you could definitely tell that he's kind 114 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: of drunk. And then he kind of bust out of 115 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: my bear hug in an angry type of way, and 116 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 2: at that point it felt like, you know, he wasn't 117 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: trying to hear me or calm the altercation. So I 118 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: ended up leaving across the street, which I had my 119 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: car inside the parking lot. I had a female friend 120 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: inside the car. I bent down to let her know 121 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: that we're about to get up out of here, and 122 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: by the time I stood up from the side of 123 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: the car, I seen sale skipping around the building right 124 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: there from off of the street, and I seen the 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: perpetrator already holding the gun in the shooting position. Before 126 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: I could say stop, gunshots had already rained off. So 127 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: I just got down until all the gunshots was overwood. 128 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: And typically in situations like this in the project, regardless 129 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: if you did something or if you didn't do it, 130 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: you just h tail up out of there. So that's 131 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: what I ended up doing. 132 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask you point blank, did you know 133 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: at the time who the actual shooter was. 134 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: Yes, I did, And there. 135 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: Were a lot of witnesses. Thirty or more witnesses were 136 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: there because as you described, it was a street team, 137 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people hanging out, of course, and it 138 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: seemed like this a lot of people are going to 139 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: be scared to come forward. Nobody wants to be labeled 140 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: to snitch. 141 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: Because I know what that actually means. Something happened to 142 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: me my family. 143 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: But one woman did come forward and she became a 144 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: key part of this whole awful scenario, right And this 145 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: woman's name was Priscilla Lualamaga, and she claimed to have 146 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: seen the whole thing from her second story window. Already, 147 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: my spidy sense to start tingling because it's eleven o'clock 148 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: at night, it's dark. It sounds like a pretty dicey 149 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: scenario to think that she's going to identify somebody. But okay, 150 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: so she told police that her distant relative was just deceased. 151 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: Sell Kuka was chasing another man around a car who 152 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: she identified as your brother, Joshua. And then she further 153 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: claimed that while chasing Joshua, Kuka bumped into a knockdown 154 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: another man who got up, chased him down the street 155 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: and sloping downhill and open fire close range, so this 156 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: is important. She gets taken to the police station and 157 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: showing thirty four mug shots that were set up on 158 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: a bulletin board, and she recognized many of the mugshots 159 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: at spaces from her neighborhood, understandably. But then in the 160 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: two hours she was in that room with the bulletin 161 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: board of mugshots, she didn't recognize your face, correct, which 162 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: was immediately above Joshua Bradley's mugshots. So that's even weirder, right, 163 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: it was right there in front of her face, and 164 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: she still didn't recognize it, okay, correct. So two days 165 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: later the cops come to her workplace and take us 166 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: from there. 167 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: Two days later the police came to her workplace, but 168 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: the day before that, it is real interesting that they 169 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: actually came to her house showing her a mugshot picture 170 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: which we believe to have been me, and they denying 171 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: that it was me that didn't run side by side 172 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: to what you ultimately ended up coming out when it 173 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: comes down to the lineup and the mug shots. So 174 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: they told her that if we were to bring a 175 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: photo lineup with the person who did it inside the 176 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 2: lineup which be able to identify it. So the next 177 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: day they went to her job. They brought her a 178 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: six pack lineup with really me wearing an orange jumpsuit 179 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: and everybody else in playing clothes. But she had already 180 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: identified the other people, you know, not being the person 181 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: and people that she already knows. 182 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: It's even worse than that, right, because of the fact 183 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: that she said that you quote unquote looks like the 184 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: guy who could have shot Kouka, right, So that's pretty 185 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: damn weak. 186 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: The six pack lineup, it had two standout things. It 187 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: had me inside of an orange jumpsuit and then it 188 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: also had the dates that came off of the system 189 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: when they brought up the mug shots where my date 190 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: was dated different than the other dates that came off 191 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: of the system. Because they had me down as the 192 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: shooter on day one. 193 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: Why do you think the detectives had it out for 194 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: you or they just like, whoever, we just got to 195 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: close the case. It doesn't matter. 196 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: I wasn't somebody that was out there. I was always 197 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: trying to do something positive. I was doing music, you know, 198 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 2: I'll hang around, of course, but with my name coming 199 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: up on the day that actually happened, whether they wanted 200 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: questions from me or them saying oh it was the 201 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: guy that Jamal was with, they was like, okay, this 202 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: is how we gonna get him. We're gonna pressure him. 203 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: It's aid either tail on the person who did it, 204 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: or we're gonna make sure that he goes down for this. 205 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: And then no weapon was recovered, but hl casings were 206 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: found down hill from the body, in the trail leading 207 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: up to the body, which means that what she said 208 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: was false because she said the shooter was chasing Kuka downhill. 209 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: So now we know, and they should have known that 210 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: she didn't know what the fuck she was talking about. 211 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: So to be honest right, her representation of what actually happened. 212 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 2: If anything, she could have only seen what was on 213 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: the side of that building. She didn't see when the 214 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: person was actually shooting. 215 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: She told police that Sela Kuka was chasing another man 216 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: around the car and then Kooka bumped into a knockdown 217 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: another man who got up, chased him down the street 218 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: and sloping down on hill and open fire close range. 219 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: It wasn't me who sail had knocked down? 220 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: What was her agenda here? Do you know? 221 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 2: Her whole thing? And the family which I was deeply 222 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: connected to, felt like they weren't scared of me, they 223 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: were scared of the person who actually did it, right, 224 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: So by way of throwing me in there, they felt 225 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: that I was going to tell on the person who 226 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 2: actually did it. 227 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:28,479 Speaker 1: Wow. 228 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: So that's the big boom right there. 229 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: And then things take another crazy turn, right because the 230 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: TV show airs the show that you were in, which 231 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: should have been a cause for celebration. She happens to 232 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: see the TV show, right, and then she comes back 233 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: and says, oh, now I know it's definitely him. 234 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So they were getting her closer and closer to 235 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: that it was me one hundred percent, and then on 236 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: top of her saying that she talked to her cousin, 237 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 2: and then on top of the detectives really trying to 238 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: get somebody to go to jail for this. You know, 239 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: that's what brewed up to what that ultimately ended up being. 240 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: But even still that didn't work. What ultimately ended up 241 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: happening was I said. About fourteen months later, the police 242 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: had did a traffic stop with this other woman named Letitia, 243 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: who had a gun in her lap, had cracked cocaine 244 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: on her baby in the back, had her boyfriend who 245 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 2: was on parole in the passenger seat. Pulled over. She's 246 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: going to jail, and she goes down and they basically say, well, 247 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: if you could tell us X, Y, and Z about 248 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: this case, everybody basically goes free. She initially tells them 249 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: that it was daylight and this altercation happened, and then 250 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: she said she looked through the window and looked all 251 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 2: the way down the block and seeing that this happened, 252 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: and just threw my name in there. So there was 253 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: a lot of things is wrong with that, right as 254 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 2: if first, she says that she's seen it for fifty 255 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: yards away on a slant heel in the daylight, when 256 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: it didn't happen in the daytime, it happened at night. 257 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: But what got the arrest warrant was the write up 258 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: that detectives had rolled up. They were guiding her the 259 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: whole way, making everything like it was a clear record, 260 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: and then wrote at the bottom extremely credible. So now 261 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: when they take that to the DA, now they feel 262 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: they have two witnesses saying the same exact thing. 263 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: So this is a crazy timeline too, because the crime 264 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: we know happens in two thousand and seven, you don't 265 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: get brought in and rested until two thousand and eight, 266 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: over a year later, and then the trial doesn't happen 267 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: till twenty ten. 268 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: Correct. 269 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: So during that time were you in jail, did you 270 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: bail out? How did that unfold? After you arrested? 271 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: Well, after I was arrested, they wanted to question me. Obviously, 272 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: there's two things you can do. You can give up information, 273 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: but never mind that because in that situation, which you're 274 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: taught in the streets, is you know it's not to snitch, 275 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: not to give up information. Something happened to me my family, 276 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: you know, So I balanced that with also knowing that 277 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: it's not my duty to put somebody else into jail. 278 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: That's for them to actually get it right. And that 279 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: was my way of going at it. So it actually 280 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 2: took me about a year and a half to go 281 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: to trial. It was hard trying to get the thirty 282 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: people that was out there to actually come in, you know, 283 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: not say who did it, you know, but to say 284 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: I didn't do it. I wasn't trying to put nobody 285 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: in no situation where I was trying to have somebody 286 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: else tell on the assailant because I wasn't going to 287 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: do anything like that. Then I have to go what 288 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: hide for the rest of my life or something. That's 289 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: just not my job. That's up to the system to do. 290 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: So nobody would want to be in that situation. But 291 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: you were in it, and you're still just a young 292 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: guy without you know, resources, and so you roll with 293 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: it and you go to trial. 294 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we thought the case added an identity case, 295 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: you know, identity testify. We didn't call nobody to testify 296 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: or whatever. So it took three days and then it 297 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: took five days of deliberation. Ultimately they came back with 298 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: a murder one conviction. It was it was definitely tough 299 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: I stayed optimistic because I know I didn't do it 300 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, and that's what, ultimately, 301 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: you know, kept the wools turning in my mind on 302 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: how do I figure this out? 303 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: And you were convicted, of course, and you were sentenced 304 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: to fifty years in prison. 305 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: So I want you to understand this right before I 306 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: get since it's to fifty the life I'm inside of 307 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: my cell, I become we're doing a retrial motion right 308 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: to ask for a retrial before a sentence. I'm come 309 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: back from church, come aside. It's a twelve man like 310 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: tank and this kid by the name of Oliver Bart 311 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 2: sentence comes up to me. Now I don't know who 312 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 2: this kid is. He comes up to me and he 313 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: asked me, like, you know, is your last name true Love? 314 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: And I say yes. He said, did you go to 315 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: jail like in seven I'm like no, but that's when 316 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: my case happened. He said yes. I remember being in 317 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: a police station at the time where some like some 318 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: mooning girl and some detectives came in and she was 319 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: crying and they were pointing out a picture saying are 320 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: you sure it ain't something something? True Love? And I'm 321 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: like whoa, you know, and it blows my mind that 322 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: it just so happens that I run into this guy 323 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: and he had just been transported from sam Bruno Jail 324 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: to San Francisco County on his way to prison. And 325 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 2: he's seen in the newspaper when he was in saying 326 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: Bruno about my case, and he remembered the last name 327 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: that was the first spark. And then when he ended 328 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: up in a sale with me the name again, that's 329 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: when he actually approached me and told me these things. 330 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: So I called my attorney immediately and tell my attorney 331 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: about him, and my attorney came up and you know, 332 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: talk to him, got his statement, and come to find out, 333 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: he was at the police station at the exact same 334 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: time that Lula Lamanga had came into the police station. 335 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: He was a sixteen year old kid come to the 336 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 2: bench watching all of this unfold. So what he ended 337 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: up saying was big in my case because remind you 338 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: that that photo, that photo and the six pack lineup 339 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: that had the date that was different from everybody else's 340 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: which we called in the question made that much more 341 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: sense because they had me down as the shooter on 342 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: day one, and what made more sense from his testimony, 343 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: is why she never put it at my picture on 344 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: the wall, because on day one she was saying that 345 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 2: it wasn't me. Even on day two she was saying 346 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: it wasn't me. Now this is newly found evidence. There 347 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: was no way that we could have knew that this 348 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: kid was inside the police station. So there's no way 349 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 2: we could have called him. Now, just in the heap 350 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: of that time, what was going on in San Francisco. 351 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: You got you know, Kamala Harris, who's going to try 352 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: to be Attorney General. You have another case which got overturned, 353 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: and then you have a big drug scandal that's happening 354 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: in San Francisco also at the exact same time. So 355 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: in the retrial motion hearing when we put him on 356 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 2: the stand to testify, Linda Allen, the city's attorney, attacked 357 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: Oh that he was a gang member and he's trying 358 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: to do this for a favor for the blacks, like 359 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: some prison politics type stuff. And neither one of us 360 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 2: have ever been to prison, and we just don't know 361 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: each other at all. So in this moment though that 362 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: this is new discovered evidence, I feel like I was 363 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: politicked out because if they were to grant me a retrial. 364 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: That would have been two murder cases with convictions granted 365 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: retrial before conviction. And plus the drug scandal that was 366 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: national attention. So ultimately, even what Oliver Barcon is, they 367 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 2: still denied my retrial motion. That's when I got sentenced 368 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: to fifty to life in prison. 369 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's important to look at the role 370 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: that politics played in this because there was a lot 371 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: going on and now things are really looking a lot 372 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: better in San Francisco with the new DA Chase A. Boudin, 373 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: who is doing incredible, incredible thing is probably the most 374 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: impactful six months of any new prosecutor in the history 375 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: of this country, I would say, in terms of what 376 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: he's been able to accomplish. But that's a separate issue. 377 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: Mss Harris at the time does not come out. I mean, 378 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: we can't sugarcoat it. I mean, she was one of 379 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: the villains in this story, in your story, and in 380 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: too many other stories that took place around this time. 381 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, the think about Kamala Harris as a senator, she 382 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: talks a lot of things that ploys towards the African 383 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: American community, and you know it's good, Like if I 384 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: didn't go through the experience that I went through, then 385 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 2: I will probably be on the side of what Kamala 386 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 2: Harris actually talks about. And that's if you know, I 387 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: didn't find out about me. But when we talk about 388 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 2: being a progressive prosecutor, I think of chase A Boudin 389 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris at the time she had opportunity to alleviate 390 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: this case and dive into it, especially a murder charge. 391 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: Any head DA is overlooking any murder charge that's happening 392 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: inside of their city. But also just knowing politics at 393 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 2: that time. I know four people who went to jail 394 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: innocently for murders. In every single last one of them 395 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 2: got convicted. They call it a street sweep. Once elections 396 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: come up, they come through and they sweep any case 397 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 2: that they have. They say, arrest them, arrest them, marest them, 398 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: and look. I went to jail right before elections and 399 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: one of the detectives my dad had ran into before 400 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: I went to trial, Kevin Noble, had told my dad. 401 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: My dad was like, yo, why you got my son? 402 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: And he said, oh, you know how it is. And 403 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: during election time, you know DA's they just come and sweep, 404 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: you know, everybody up any case that they got and 405 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 2: see if they can pressure people into taking deals. Because 406 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: they offered me a deal, you know, before I went 407 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 2: to try my first time, they was like, you know, 408 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: you complete out and take voluntary man slid, don't take 409 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: thirteen years under her watch. So my feeling on Kamala 410 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 2: Harris being in that position, being African American, coming from 411 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 2: the Bay Area and being hard on crime the way 412 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: that she was, and how many people that was going 413 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 2: to jail for marijuana chargers at one of the highest 414 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: rates in the country, you know, played a big part 415 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: of mass incarceration and also to gentrification in San Francisco. 416 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 2: So I cannot unfeel that or see that, or when 417 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: I'm getting sentenced, you know, or my conviction, she's in 418 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: there smiling and you know, proud of what this is, 419 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 2: what this conviction is, and what it means to her career. 420 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 2: And then right after I lose my case, she wins 421 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,479 Speaker 2: you know, Attorney General. So that all tells a story, 422 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: you know, just within itself. 423 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what a sick thing to say to your father. 424 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's I mean, that's as cold as it gets, 425 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: like it's your father, for fox sakes. 426 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: So Kevin Noble before I went to trial, and this 427 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: was not turned over to us. Kevin Noble actually came 428 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: in with a confidential format saying that somebody else did it. 429 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 2: So he was out there investigating and he found somebody 430 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: saying that this person did it, and they took it 431 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 2: and they tucked it under the rug. You know, they 432 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: felt like they had their God at the actually sold 433 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:01,719 Speaker 2: on on doing it. 434 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: Jaman, if you could talk about for a minute, and 435 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: we're going to get to the to the retrial, of course, 436 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: your exoneration, because you were fully exonerated. That being said, 437 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: can you tell us when you were in prison, was 438 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: there a best moment. 439 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: When I was waiting for the courts to give their 440 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: opinion on if I was gonna get a retrial or not. 441 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 2: And they initially I came back and I'm on the 442 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 2: phone at the same time with my appella attorney, Mark Zilversmith, 443 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 2: and they deny, well they didn't deny. They changed the 444 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: conviction from first degree murder to second degree murder, which 445 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 2: I would have had from fifty years. It would have 446 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: went down to forty years to life. And I'm like, WHOA, like, 447 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And My selling at the 448 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: time was like, that's good. I mean, they're really looking 449 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: at it now. Mind you, I'm in prison for three 450 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 2: years before I even get this opinion from the appellate courts. 451 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 2: But I knew that until I get another decision, I 452 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 2: will be in prison for at least another two to 453 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 2: three years because that's the time that it typically takes. 454 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: So then my attorney put in a motion to review. 455 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: So with this strategy at the same time, I ended 456 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 2: up getting two witnesses to sign FI David testifying to 457 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: what happened that day without saying the person who did it, 458 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: and we filed the Habes corpus through the appellate court 459 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: so it could go across judges climbed them table at 460 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: the exact same time as our review was and to 461 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: say that there's two more witnesses saying that he didn't 462 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 2: do it. So ninety days later we got the opinion 463 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 2: back that the judges said, you know what, you're right, 464 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 2: and they granted a new retrial. It was a crying moment, 465 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 2: you know, I cried like a baby, you know, inside 466 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: that cell. 467 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think anyone who's ever not been through 468 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: that could possibly even imagine such a transformative I mean, 469 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: you get your life back. 470 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: Well, well, the crazy part about it is like in 471 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: that moment, you feel excited, right, but come to find out, 472 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: once you get back to County jail, you just know 473 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: that you don't have the life sentence no more, but 474 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: you still have a whole nother fight and that's potentially 475 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: going to trial. Are them coming to you and offering 476 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 2: you a deal where you're almost close to want to 477 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 2: take that deal just so you don't have to go 478 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 2: to trial and lose again, because at that point, you know, 479 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 2: you don't I don't believe in the system. You know, 480 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,239 Speaker 2: I just got to convict the fuck prime. I didn't do. 481 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: Like you ask anybody who has a life sentence right now, 482 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: innocent or not innocent, if they had a deal on 483 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: the table right now to take it and they get 484 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 2: to come home in two years. They're taking it. 485 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: So let's get to the good stuff, because we don't 486 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: have a ton of time left. But I do want to, 487 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: of course, talk about how you manage to finally get 488 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: some measure of justice, and by that I mean, of 489 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: course the retrial and your exoneration. 490 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: When I got back to County, it took me a 491 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: year to go back to trial. I had two extraordinary lawyers, 492 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: Kate Chatfield and Alex Riiseman. The way that we fought 493 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 2: the case, we asked for the original homicide file and 494 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: the judge granted it to us. What helped us was 495 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 2: that they were tampering with the evidence. So when we 496 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 2: slipped at the original homicide file, we seen that the 497 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: detectives was writing in pen pencil in marker. So the 498 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: ballistics of the trajectory of the bullets, it didn't fit 499 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 2: Lula Lamanga's testimony of the bullets going from the left 500 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: to the right. The trajectory of the bullets went from 501 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: the right to the left, and that made more sense 502 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: if the shooter was coming up from the bottom into 503 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: the top of the hill. So what they did was 504 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: erased because they wrote in pencil. They erased everything that 505 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: the autosy lady has said about the trajectory of the 506 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: bullet wounds, so they knew that that was an issue. Also, 507 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: a gun shoots off the shellcases from the right into 508 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 2: the rear ninety eight percent of the time, so is 509 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 2: she saying that this murder happened coming from this way, 510 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 2: then the shellcases will be in the street and not 511 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: in a straight line in the grass from where the 512 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: shellcases landed. It made more sense that the shooter was 513 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: coming from the bottom into the top, so it did 514 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: not match with what Lulu La Maga had actually said. 515 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: So you were able to undermine the police's theory of 516 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: the crime because the autopsy and ballistics findings pointed to 517 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: the gunman approaching sell Kuka from downhill, which was out 518 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: of Loalamana's view. Now what about the deliberation. 519 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: Every day, within deliberation, you get to choose if you 520 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: want to stay downstairs inside the holding tank, or you 521 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: could stay upstairs until they come back with a verdict. 522 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: I chose to stay downstairs because the deliberation room was 523 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: right next to the holding tank. And I'm in there panicing, 524 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: I'm stressing, I'm pacing, you know, I'm thinking about what 525 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do if I win. I'm thinking about what 526 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do if I lose. So five days later, 527 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 2: they finally end up coming back with a verdict, so 528 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 2: I come downstairs. I didn't have no opportunity to call 529 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: my family. Uh, they were living in the East Bay. 530 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 2: So when I come downstairs for the verdict, the only 531 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: people that are sitting on my side is my attorney's 532 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: loved ones, and it's also chasing Boudin, chasing Boudin. I 533 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: don't know who chasea Boudein is at that point, right, 534 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: But on the other side the whole DA's office, So 535 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: Gascon was the DA at that point, right. So there 536 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: are all in there waiting for the verdict, and the 537 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: clerk reads off in the case of Jamal true Love 538 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: on first degree murder, not guilty, and I break out 539 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 2: in tears. I'm crying. I'm hugging my attorney and I'm 540 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: just crying my eyes out. I can't believe it. I'm 541 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: really breaking down. And then my attorney says, hold on, wait, 542 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 2: you gotta listen for second degree murder. I said, what 543 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: hold on? Because I thought I won at that point, 544 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: so oh man, it was I felt the sweat just 545 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: coming down my face. And then they said, in the 546 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: case of Jamal true Love on second degree murder, we 547 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: find the defendant not guilty. And I'm literally feeling that 548 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 2: right now. I'm trying not to get emotional. But when 549 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: I looked over to the jury, that was the first 550 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: time that they could actually show an expression on their faces, 551 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: and you see them over there crying. They're giving me 552 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: prayer hands, they're sitting kisses at me, you know, and 553 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: all of these things, and I'm you know, and I'm 554 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: just crying my eyes out. You know. I look back, 555 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: you see all the district attorneys just leaving, you know, upset, 556 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: and I'm just crying out. I'm just crying my eyes out. 557 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: And even going back up to the sixth for where 558 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: I was being held and telling everybody on the line, 559 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: which everybody knew I was innocent, and I told everybody, 560 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: you know, I got found not guilty. The whole floor, 561 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: the whole jail erupts, even some of the deputies that 562 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: were you know, cool, and even the ones that was 563 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 2: foul as fun because this hell of file shit was 564 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: trying to you know, clap their hands and stuff like that. 565 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: So it was a good feeling. And I went home 566 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: that day. I was able to surprise my mother and 567 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: you know, my family, which they didn't know if I 568 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: want or not. But I popped up on them and they, 569 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 2: you know, they see me. They couldn't believe it. It 570 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: was more tears shit, And it was the most exhilarating 571 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: feeling to know that you know I'm free again today. 572 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: You've been out for how long I've been out? 573 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: Five years? 574 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: And I've seen you around and you know, I know 575 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: you're making the most of every minute of it. Do 576 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: you want to tell us a little bit about what 577 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: you're working on now? And then we're going to get 578 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: to the closing of the show. 579 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: I end up suing, you know, the police. They try 580 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: to offer me, you know, some moneys to shut up. Ultimately, 581 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: our health them accountable, and I won my civil case. 582 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: I was awarded ten million dollars that ended up rounding 583 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: out to be thirteen point one million, which obviously I 584 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: didn't get all the money. But from there on, so 585 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: what's ironic is before I won my civil case, three 586 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: days before that, I landed a role in this movie 587 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: called The Last Black Man in San Francisco, which I 588 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 2: got the opportunity by volunteering at a nonprofit called United Players. 589 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: Rudy Corpez that's my mentor, and you know the mantras 590 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: it takes the Hood to save the Hood. So they 591 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: were coming there to get some kids for the rock 592 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: thoughing scene. Here comes that opportunity. I say, look, I 593 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: know how to act. I'm acting all my life, you know, 594 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: trying to fit in the city where I stand out 595 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: in And I think that was the line that got 596 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: me the opportunity to read Joe Talbot Jimmy Fails called 597 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: me back two times after I got it. Three days later, 598 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: I win my civil case, and from there on I 599 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: took on what I believed my life was meant to be. 600 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 2: And before all of that, I went to school for 601 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: Psychology Africana Studies at State and after one semester I 602 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: identified that much more of what my life was supposed 603 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: to be. So when you were saying manifestation, you know, 604 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: I run my life on you know, manifesto desto. If 605 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: you could manifest it and you can see the steps 606 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 2: that you got to take to actually get there, then 607 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: you take what's it, a tangible right in front of you, 608 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: and you make sense of it on how you ultimately 609 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: get to that next platu. I also landed a role 610 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: on this upcoming animation film called p Other Pigeonhawk, which 611 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: has Whooping gowerk Keenan Thompson, Howie Mandell and of course 612 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: myself and the slew of other names. I'm producing this 613 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: film called Black and White. It's about the USC seventy 614 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: two football team and working on other projects. I launched 615 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 2: my production company with one of my good friends and 616 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 2: business partners, said Twaley Holder called True Narrative, also launching 617 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 2: a record label. I have my son and a few 618 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 2: other artists that's coming up that I plan on putting 619 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 2: out there with their music. And I do a lot 620 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 2: of you know activism. I use my platform to speak 621 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 2: on you know, social issues and to bring the enlightenment 622 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 2: to my community about you know, what we need to 623 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 2: be doing with the voting and letting our voices be 624 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: heard behind you know, systemic racism behind all these police 625 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: involved shootings. Know, I campaign for Chase A Boudin Now. 626 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: Before I would have never in my life be a 627 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: campaign for a DA because the DA is looked at 628 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 2: as basically the police. But once I got the understanding 629 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 2: that there's gonna be a DA regardless, and don't you 630 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: want it to be the right one. So that's what 631 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: I start pressing on to my people to understand that 632 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: there's gonna be a DA regardless, and we have a 633 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: say so in who the DA actually is, so get 634 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 2: out and vote. So that's everything in a nutshell. 635 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: That's a pretty damn good nutshell. And you know, I 636 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: got to say I was a big supporter of Chase 637 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: A Boudin's campaign as well, and I'm super proud of 638 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: everything he's been doing. You know, the truth is, we 639 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: need to clone that guy and put the clones of 640 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: him in DA offices all over the country. And while 641 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: we're on the subject of dismantling systemic racism and all 642 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: the other things that we've managed to talk about in 643 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: this brief time we've had together, we can't leave out 644 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: the young man who testified for you about what he's 645 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: on the police station, right, And that was the guy 646 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: who talked about the police coercing lou A Lamaga. His name, 647 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: of course, was Oliver bar Senda's and he was actually 648 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: shot in the back by the police, right. 649 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: Oliver bar Sendas. The story is really that much like 650 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: we will have to have two hours because the police 651 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 2: shot him after he testified against me the first time, 652 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 2: San Francisco Police Department. Right when he went to prison, 653 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: came home within sixty days, they shot him in the 654 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 2: back while he was running. He had a gun on him. Right, 655 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,919 Speaker 2: he goes to jail, he does three years, come home 656 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 2: around the same time I come home and then he 657 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 2: stays home three years, get off probation, we go to trial. 658 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 2: We actually use him to testify in my civil case. 659 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: He testifies in my civil case, and within two months 660 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 2: again SFPD again shoots him in the back while he's 661 00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: running and tries to literally kill him, which he doesn't die. 662 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 2: They had it on camera, and he actually just two 663 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 2: weeks ago settled for less than five hundred thousand dollars 664 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 2: in a civil suit. And the media has not connected 665 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: these at all both cases. But would I know what 666 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: they ended up doing, because we know this shit is crooked. 667 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 2: They gave a belief like a doe feed or somebody 668 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: it's called a chipped gun, so a drop gun to 669 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: make sure that this gun gets in this person's hands, 670 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 2: so they could go ahead and trail them ultimately to 671 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 2: go to take them down. And when they going to 672 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 2: take them down, there's only two things they can do. 673 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 2: So if they run and they got the gun on them, 674 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 2: then all they gotta do is kill them. And then 675 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 2: they're gonna say, oh, well he had a gun on them. 676 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: I seen a gun and blase the thing with Oliver. 677 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 2: He didn't die both times. 678 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait what a chipped gun, like with GPS 679 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: or something. 680 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: Yes, e'sactly what they do, right. So you know how 681 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 2: when they do like set up cars, they'll put a 682 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 2: car right there with the keys in and stuff like that, 683 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: kind of like lure you, but they already got it 684 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 2: all set up. Same thing with a gun, and they 685 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: was doing this in the nineties, right, That's how I 686 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 2: know about it. It's called a drop gun. So they'll 687 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 2: chip the gun, right, and they'll get this dau fiend 688 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: or something like that that'll go up to a specific 689 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 2: person or if not a specific person, a crowd and 690 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 2: be like, we're gonna give you this. Go sell this 691 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 2: gun for one hundred dollars. If you go to any 692 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,720 Speaker 2: projects and any hood with a dauphend with a gun 693 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 2: saying that he's selling it for one hundred dollars, somebody's 694 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: gonna buy it. And Oliver case that's what I believe 695 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 2: they did, because the same scenario happened twice. In the 696 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: second time, it just so happened that they have footage 697 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: On the day the Warriors won the championship. They first championship, 698 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 2: they pull out on a group of five Latinos with 699 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: one can of beer talking about, oh, what are you 700 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 2: guys doing here? And they're like, where is this one? 701 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: We're just chilling. It's like, oh, well, you got an 702 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: open can of beer. It's like, now, at that moment, 703 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 2: you see Oliver kind of like testing a little bit, 704 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 2: and then next you know, he takes off running. As 705 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 2: soon as he takes off running, the officer already pulled 706 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: out his gun and start running with the gun. Before 707 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: the officer could see even if he had a gun 708 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 2: on him or not, the officer already starts shooting blah 709 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 2: blah blah blah, drops him with three of them, and 710 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: then shoot an extra three of them while he on 711 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 2: the floor, saying get down, get down, and he still lives. 712 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 2: This is the thing, though, right that same officer killed 713 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: a fourteen year old boy in South San Francisco just 714 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 2: three years prior. 715 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: Wow, you're right, and we wouldn't need at least a 716 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: few more hours. And I'm not even sure there'd be 717 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: enough to cover all of this stuff that's coming out now. 718 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: But you know, at this point, let's go to our 719 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: closing argument. This is the part of the show where 720 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: everyone I think that's a part of the show everybody 721 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: looks forward to I know I do. We call it 722 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: closing arguments. This is where I get to, first of all, 723 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: thank you for being here, sharing your incredible story and 724 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: doing it so beautifully. And then I get to turn 725 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: my microphone off and just kick back in my chair, 726 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: leave my headphones on, and listen to you for any 727 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: closing thoughts that you have about anything you want to 728 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: talk about. 729 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 2: My philosophy that I've got out of all of this 730 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 2: that I've been through is that I don't stand for 731 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 2: nothing because I find understanding in everything. And what that 732 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 2: is is just find a mediation. You can have an opinion, 733 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: you can have an opinion on how you look at things, 734 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 2: but also knowing that there's somebody else's opinion and you 735 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 2: have to look at it from their lenses and identify 736 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 2: why they're looking at it like that causing mediation. Mediation 737 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 2: is peaceful. So if people could always look at what 738 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 2: they're going through or their ideology of how they see 739 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: things and compare it to somebody else's and find understanding 740 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 2: in that. But then if it's a negative or a positive, 741 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 2: then you'll be able to come to a common ground 742 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 2: to understand why you're going through what you're going through. 743 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 2: And why the opposite person looks at something the way 744 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 2: that they look at it, and that leads me to 745 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 2: knowing that there will not be a positive for you 746 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 2: or in this life without a negative. You have to 747 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 2: accept every negative. Then you'll understand that me being in 748 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 2: this positive situation right now, there's no way I get 749 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 2: here or can predict that I get anywhere else in 750 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 2: life without going through the most horrific thing that somebody 751 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 2: could actually go through, and that's being put in jail 752 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 2: and given a death sentence that you have to live 753 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 2: the rest of your life until you actually die on 754 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 2: And that leads me to the end, and that's knowing 755 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 2: your past could better predict your future than plan for 756 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: If you know the decisions that you made that led 757 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: to a positive and the ones that led to a negative, 758 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 2: then you will better identify where your future is actually 759 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 2: going towards knowing that we all have to plan for sure, 760 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: but not putting a plan so far ahead are so 761 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 2: heavy onto your shoulders, so when you fail, you don't 762 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 2: find understanding of why you fail, But then you'll understand 763 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 2: it that much more by knowing why you failed before. 764 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you 765 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 766 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 2: It really helps. 767 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Nnocence Project and 768 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 769 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 770 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot orgorg to learn how to donate 771 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, 772 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: Connor and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is 773 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,319 Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 774 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on 775 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm 776 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association 777 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one