1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Lannie Davis He's 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: a Washington lawyer and lobbyists served as special counsel to 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: President Bill Clinton and supported Hillary Clinton in her presidential bid. 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: His new book is The Unmaking of the President six 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: How FBI director James Comey cost Hillary Clinton the presidency. 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Lannie, Thanks for having me. What 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: a breaking news story with Mr Rosenstein having the same 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: opinion of Jim Comey as I do. Well, let's let's talk. Uh, 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: we'll have to see what Mr rosen steign is going 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: to be talking about. I think it's the Russian investigation. 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: And let me get your reaction. You were special counsel 16 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: to UH President Clinton when the White House was under 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: investigation by an independent council. How do you see this 18 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: news that there is actually an indictment, a criminal indictment, 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: the first criminal case to accuse Russians of seeking to 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: influence the outcome of the US election. How do you 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: think this plays into all the other things that have 22 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: been happening. Well, just to reference your um my experience 23 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: with President Clinton, UH, seven years and sixty million dollars 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: of the Independent Council Kenneth Stars UH investigation. UH. The 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: subsequent Independent Council concluded the investigation by saying nothing there. 26 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: People forget with the possessive possession of all the headlines 27 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: about Whitewater that the end was nothing there. So in 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: this case, we already have more than something. We have 29 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: several things. We have too guilty, please one by the 30 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: Nationals Security Adviser, Mr Flynn, And now it looks like 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: they have uncovered serious Russian meddling in the election. And 32 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: remember the intelligence agencies don't just say the word meddling, 33 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: they say influencing in favor of Trump. So my book 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: is about Jim Comey making the extreme, extremely bad judgment 35 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: to send a letter contrary to Justice Department policies eleven 36 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: days from an election that changed Hillary Clinton's lead from 37 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: plus six to losing in the three critical stage by 38 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: less than one percent. So that's why I focus on 39 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: Comey because I can prove it statistically but the Russian 40 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: intervention on behalf of Donald Trump was certainly an important 41 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: factor as well. I just want to make clear that 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: there has been no connection of any of these factors, 43 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: especially this indictment to President Trump. There has been no 44 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: back to him. That's correct, and I decided not to 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: try to prove that the Russian meddling on his behalf, 46 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: which is a unanimous judgment of all the intelligence agencies 47 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: of the U. S Government as well as former President Obama, 48 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: that they were meddling to help Donald Trump and tarnish 49 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. That's a fact. What we can't prove is 50 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: that those activities on behalf of Trump were coordinated with 51 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: Trump campaign officials or with Mr Trump himself. That remains 52 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: to be seen. Now let's talk about your book for 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: a moment. You talk about how the single reason Clinton 54 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: lost the election was that FBI Director Comey wrote a 55 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: letter to Congress that we all remember on October twenty 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: saying the FBI was doing additional investigation of Clinton emails 57 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: after the discovery of Anthony Weiner's laptop. Tell us why 58 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: you write that that was the single reason. Well, actually, 59 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: I don't use that expression. I was very careful to 60 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: avoid the single reason. I used the expression the decisive reason, 61 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: and then I used the expression but for the Comy letter, 62 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: she would have won. But there were many other mistakes 63 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: that one could say contributed to her defeat. She took 64 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: ownership of those mistakes, including the very decision to start 65 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: a private email system. All mistakes contribute to a defeat. 66 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: But the one mistake that was decisive, which I proved mathematically, 67 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: is that on the morning of October two thousand sixteen, 68 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: despite all of the other mistakes that contributed to her defeat, 69 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: on that morning of October, she's ahead nationally by six percent, 70 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: a larger margin than Barack Obama defeated Mitt Romney. And 71 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: she's ahead in all of the battleground states that she 72 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: needed to win, including by large margins Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. 73 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: Within three days of the Comy letter, she had dropped 74 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: like a rock falling in a pond, and she was 75 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: virtually tied in those three states. That's within three days, 76 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: So it is impossible to avoid the conclusion, especially the 77 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: drenched media coverage with the headlines Hillary Clinton under a 78 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: new criminal investigation, that was what was the substantial victory 79 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: In the morning of October turned into a narrow defeat. 80 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: Ten days later, Clinton did win the popular vote, and 81 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: an analysis after the election showed that state level polling 82 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: underestimated the level of Trump support, especially in those three 83 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: states you mentioned. Actually, no, that that is, I'm sorry 84 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: to sounds like I'm contradicting you, because you are certainly 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: reflecting what everybody believes. So you have great company. But 86 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: the polls were exactly right because the tracking polls daily, 87 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: which I did in my book, starting on the afternoon 88 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: of one through eight every day, showed the effects of 89 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: the saturated coverage of Hillary Clinton being under a new 90 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: criminal investigation about emails. Each day she was dropping. So 91 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: by the last weekend in those three states, she was 92 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: within one or two points of Donald Trump. So the 93 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: polls were not Not only can I prove they were 94 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: accurate as we approached election day that she was dropping 95 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: after the comy letter, but this is very fascinating. The 96 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: last set of polls by Real Clear Politics predicted Hillary 97 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: Clinton would win the popular vote by three percent. That 98 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: was within one percent of the actual total. So just 99 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: think about how accurate the polls were that they were 100 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: within one percent of predicting the final result in popular 101 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: vote and in the battleground states, as you just mentioned, 102 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: every one of the states that she was ahead on 103 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: October as soon as the Comy letter hit. In North Carolina, 104 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 1: she was ahead. She dropped. In Florida, she only lost 105 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: by one point two percent. She was ahead by several 106 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: points before the Comy letter, and even ours own issues ahead. 107 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: So we are able to see what happened in those 108 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: last ten days as a result of the Comy letter. 109 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: You were a lawyer involved, as I mentioned, in the 110 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: White House under investigation by an independent counsel. What's your 111 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: opinion about the Trump administration's handling of special counsel Robert 112 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,559 Speaker 1: Muller's investigation. That's a great question. I even had Steve 113 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: Bannon pay me a compliment, and I thanked him in 114 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: person on the phone that what the Trump White House 115 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: needed was and they used me as a noun a 116 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: Lannie Davis, which I took as a compliment because my 117 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: philosophy is, if you have bad news, you have to 118 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: have a client willing to tell the truth and tell 119 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: it early, tell it all, and tell it yourself. That's 120 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: the crisis management mantra, and the Trump White House has 121 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: violated that rule almost every time, and I think they're 122 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: major problem. They have my sympathy, certainly the lawyers have 123 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: my sympathy, which is a client who's not willing to 124 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: tell the truth, Well, how have lawyer has been handling it? Well? Uh, 125 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: it's hopefully hard for me to second guess. Happened to 126 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: know the White House counsel Don McGan as a very 127 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: capable person, and he's got his hands full because he 128 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: has a client who twitters or tweets, Uh, information that 129 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: we know is contrary to fact, information that is insulting 130 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: and offensive. And that's his client that he's supposed to 131 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: be controlling in the middle of a criminal investigation. So 132 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: I can only say they're not handling it well. But 133 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: I have sympathy because the client they have is out 134 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: of control, doesn't know a truth from a falsehood, and 135 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: that makes it very hard on a lawyer. So many 136 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: political analysts and some legal analysts have speculated on President 137 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: Trump taking the fifth if his lawyers don't reach an 138 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: agreement with Mueller and if Muller serves him with a 139 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: subpoena impossible is well is several several people have said 140 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: this on our on a Bloomberg on Bloomberg View. Uh, 141 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: we've had no Ah Feldman, who is a respected constitutional lawyer, 142 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: saying that he may take the fifth and he may 143 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: survive it. Noah Feldman and every other lawyer that says 144 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: that hasn't a clue about our constitution. In American politics, 145 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: the president United States taking the Fifth Amendment is politically viable. 146 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: With all due respect to the professor, the answer is 147 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: everyone has the right to the Fifth Amendment. I do 148 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: you do when you are elected president? You either resign 149 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: or tell the truth. You do not take the Fifth Amendment. 150 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: James Madison and Alexander Hamilton's said the only real impeachable 151 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: offense is if a president betrays his trust to the 152 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: American people. If Donald Trump isn't worried about telling the truth, 153 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: tell the truth. If he's worried about telling the truth, 154 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: resign or be impeached. So nobody that I know in 155 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: politics would say that it's politically viable for a president 156 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: States to refuse to tell the truth, but to take 157 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment. People who are criminal defense lawyers or 158 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: in academic institutions who have never run for office have 159 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: an easy time saying, of course he should take the fifth. Well, 160 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: he should take the fifth if he's not president. If 161 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: he's president, he should resign. Well, that that's your scenario. 162 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: But how don't you admit that President Trump has survived 163 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: many things politically that other presidents would not have been 164 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: able to end, including won an election when many things 165 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: were alleged that other presidents wouldn't have been able to overcome. 166 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 1: You're you're absolutely right. And I have to pause when 167 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: I say he has to resign if he takes the 168 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: fifth because his expression is that could kill somebody on 169 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: Fifth Avenue and they'd forgive me. But we're talking about 170 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: they're they're happy about this number approval rating. Yea, yeah, 171 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: the White House actually brags about it. I think Donald Trump, 172 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: well on television, they look at my approval ratings for 173 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: d percent is the lowest approval rating in the history 174 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: of America, and that's about where he is plus your minus. 175 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: So with that level of minor support in a loyal base, 176 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: taking the Fifth Amendment if your president says I'm worried 177 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: about telling the truth, and if you're a private citizen, fine, 178 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: take the Fifth Amendment. If you're president United States, can happen. 179 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. To the Bloomberg Law podcast. You can 180 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 181 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brolso 182 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg