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Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, I should stop briefly Phil and explain something,

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Speaker 1: or you can you give me a minute to explain

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Speaker 1: something important, please. Um you're gonna be hearing advertisements on

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Speaker 1: the show. Here're coming up, and I feel like I

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Speaker 1: should explain them. We were working with the new company,

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Speaker 1: and the way this works for advertising is they drop in,

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Speaker 1: we record as, and they drop them in parts of

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Speaker 1: the show. And I just want you to know that

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Speaker 1: we're doing our best to make all that work and

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Speaker 1: make it a seamless process. But we gotta make money,

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Speaker 1: right Phil, Yeah, we gotta keep the keep the lights

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Speaker 1: on in your nursery, Ben, Somebody's got to pay Phil's

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Speaker 1: exorbitant salary. I mean, he makes tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: dollars a show worth every penny where there. And you know,

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Speaker 1: every time I say right, Phil, he says right in

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Speaker 1: a way that not no one else could. So, so

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Speaker 1: just say, you know, new things happening, very good things

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Speaker 1: for our show. I might finally get the cash app

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Speaker 1: to to advertise. I might finally get Express VPN to

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Speaker 1: advertise all these great advertisers that if they're on your show,

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Speaker 1: you've made it. I feel I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: agree with that, Phil, But this is that's where my

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Speaker 1: that's my goal. Um. The other goal is to get

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Speaker 1: White Claws a title sponsor the show. And if we've

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Speaker 1: done those things, I may just end it right there.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I'm excited about our new advertising

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Speaker 1: partners coming up. So enjoy that. That was a little

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Speaker 1: public service announced. But to the to today's episode, it's

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Speaker 1: a fantastic one. You're gonna love it your you agree, Phil, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I don't like to play favorites, but

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Speaker 1: this is a good one, one of my favorites. We

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Speaker 1: answer a few emails. Phil has never took a ship

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Speaker 1: in the woods. We meet Dolly Broadway, the crazy TikTok Lady,

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Speaker 1: and UM learn about Joshua's perspective of his COVID nineteen

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Speaker 1: experience th HC listener. But all that is only a

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Speaker 1: foot note to Robert C. Jones. The return of Robert C. Jones,

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Speaker 1: our friend, the vegan, the philosophy professor out of California.

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Speaker 1: He's currently in Hollywood. He's got a lot of cool

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Speaker 1: stories for us. We talk about bargaining and consumption, what

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Speaker 1: death really means, what's suffering really means and start to

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Speaker 1: define how we think about veganism versus hunting and consuming

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Speaker 1: of meat. I think it's a very important conversation. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when the preamble we talk about ship in white Claw.

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Speaker 1: So that's a THHC for you. Enjoy. Hey, everybody, welcome

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Speaker 1: to episode hundred and twenty two. Is that right, Phil? One?

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Speaker 1: That is correct of a hunting collective? I of course,

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Speaker 1: I've been o Brian. I'm joined by Philip T. Engineers

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Speaker 1: say hello, Philip, Hello, and we're along into April. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a break from turkeys this week for

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Speaker 1: a very important public service announcement. We have the return

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Speaker 1: of Dr Robert C. Jones. Are you excited, Phil, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've I've heard a lot of the interview, and I

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Speaker 1: should say that the listeners should be excited as well.

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Speaker 1: I said in at the very tail end of the interview,

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Speaker 1: And I do feel like this is true, Um, that

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Speaker 1: Robert just being I mean, he's incredibly intelligent also just

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Speaker 1: incredibly nice person, and so I think he brings out

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Speaker 1: the best of me, and maybe maybe vice versa. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but he definitely brings out the best of

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Speaker 1: me in terms of like how I think about and

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Speaker 1: articulate some of the things that we've covered over to

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Speaker 1: the couple hundred and twenty two episodes of this show.

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Speaker 1: So you're really gonna like it. We're not gonna we're

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Speaker 1: not gonna do too many things. Um, we're just gonna

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Speaker 1: kind of let that interview be what it is for

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Speaker 1: this episode. But we got some listener emails, some things

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Speaker 1: to get to before we get to Robert. Now, Phil,

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Speaker 1: in true t C fashion, we're gonna do some silly shit.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about crapping in the woods, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about white claw, and then we're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: a very serious intellectual discussion. Are you ready? It sounds

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Speaker 1: like standard th HC standard standard, just complete ridiculousness that

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Speaker 1: makes no sense, and white claw and when and then

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Speaker 1: serious discussion, serious discussion. That is how I built my life. Um.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I got an email from the guy's

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Speaker 1: name is Robert sent I believe I have to pull

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Speaker 1: up my email to make sure I got all your

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Speaker 1: names right, because I clearly do. Now I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to be stalling for a moment to like get this up, Um, Robert,

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Speaker 1: since S E N T S said, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of you sent me this. There's a something called TikTok.

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Speaker 1: Are you familiar with TikTok film? Yes? Yes, I am.

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Speaker 1: Our our very own Maggie Smith did one this past week.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if if you've seen it. It's ti

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Speaker 1: You're King themed. I've seen it. It is fantastic. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where do I send people to watch that?

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Speaker 1: The Lone Loom Yeah, her Instagram, I don't it might

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Speaker 1: I think her stories might have disappeared by now. I

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Speaker 1: think it's gone. It's lost to the sands of time. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yes, TikTok short they're kind of like short short

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Speaker 1: Instagram short videos that are usually involved dancing or lip syncing.

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Speaker 1: That's usually the theme, but there are other things as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: are you on TikTok? Phil? I am not. No, I'm

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Speaker 1: not that hip. You're a gamer. I thought all gamers like,

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Speaker 1: we're into the you know what's cool on the internet.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate it, man, But no, I'm not. I haven't caught

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Speaker 1: up that far. I was trying to take out. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to imbobe some good qualities of gamers. Um.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people, I would say, like a

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Speaker 1: dozen people send me the same link to this white

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Speaker 1: claw video, uh from in it is very explicit, but

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Speaker 1: it's an old lady. So I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 1: old lady cursing is not as impactful as if say

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Speaker 1: you or I, or to say foul foul thing. Um.

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Speaker 1: This lady's name is Dolly Broadway and Phil. She's got

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Speaker 1: a one point two million followers on TikTok. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what to say about that. Well, I mean, she's

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Speaker 1: she's a personality, that's for sure. I'm when I joined TikTok,

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Speaker 1: I will be one of her followers for sure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Robert said, my wife sent this video to me a

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Speaker 1: few weeks back, and I thought of you guys instantly.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm catching up on the back logal podcast and

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Speaker 1: I had to send you this link. Enjoy all right,

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Speaker 1: So here we go. This looks like an older lady.

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Speaker 1: How would you describe or Phil, I'll let you go

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Speaker 1: ahead and do that in case I offend anybody. Uh short, short,

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Speaker 1: bright red hair, um glasses. It's the funniest thing about

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Speaker 1: this video to me is that she's just like behind

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Speaker 1: like a picnic table of a really cheap like tablecloth

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Speaker 1: over it. In a beige wall behind her. It's she

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Speaker 1: could have spent gone more on production design, but for sure,

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Speaker 1: it's just called white clontine and says, try my new drink,

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Speaker 1: a white claw team. Hi, I'm dolly to Jetty. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to teach you back to make a white cord

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Speaker 1: and team. You put two white cors, mangu white cloths,

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Speaker 1: mangaro port like shape, splash arrange juice. She has a

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Speaker 1: giant jug of orange juice, sticking it up and pouring

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Speaker 1: it all over the table. She puts like nothing in there,

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Speaker 1: and it's mother, you use your haner top shape. You

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Speaker 1: don't have that toilet paper and put it to good juice,

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Speaker 1: put ice in it, and then you plant it. It's

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Speaker 1: the ice in it, that's it. She doesn't put ice

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Speaker 1: in it. It looks like water at the end. It's

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Speaker 1: not even Yeah. Well, one of my favorite things besides

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Speaker 1: white claws mango, which is just which is just yeah.

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Speaker 1: When you're referring to a plural plural attorney general, it's

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Speaker 1: attorneys general. That's what it reminded me of. Also, she says,

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Speaker 1: a splash of orange juice. She puts like no orange juice,

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Speaker 1: and she's like oh, I put in too much. She's like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Yeah. At the end she says, put

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Speaker 1: some ice in it. There's clearly no ice in there,

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Speaker 1: and uh, it looks like just water and white maybe

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Speaker 1: and it's a mirror lax because all she says, all

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Speaker 1: you have the toilet paper, you might as well use it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: God bless you Dolly Broadway, God bless you from us

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Speaker 1: here tc. So if you want to find Dolly Broadway,

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Speaker 1: you gotta know what. You first have to know what

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Speaker 1: TikTok is, and then you have to find her on there.

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Speaker 1: And she has Here's the one where she's dressed up

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Speaker 1: like snow white holding I'm not even gonna she's holding

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Speaker 1: a white claw and she's on the other hand, she's

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Speaker 1: holding a buzz Lightyear doll. Uh. There's another one where

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Speaker 1: she's dressed like a princess. And there's one which she

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Speaker 1: has two giant Easter eggs. So I don't even know.

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Speaker 1: I'll probably spend a good hour watching all these phil

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Speaker 1: after this, she's quite popular, quite popular, so shout out

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Speaker 1: to let me have her on the podcast and give

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Speaker 1: her own segment, Dolly Dolly Broadway. Oh, she doesn't need

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Speaker 1: our publicity. She's she's way more namous than you, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna have to pay for that. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would think, all right, well, we've got a lot to

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Speaker 1: get to. I just you know, I generally would apologize

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Speaker 1: to um everyone who uh is here for the intellectual conversation. Uh,

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Speaker 1: because now we're going to move on to pooping. Are

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Speaker 1: you ready for that? Phil? Oh? Yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: this is a horrifying story. Go ahead and give go

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Speaker 1: ahead and read that out. Read that for us, buddy, Sure, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this comes from k Camp. Let's see Keith hello,

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Speaker 1: bit and fill the engineer. So here, I am sitting

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Speaker 1: alone with my back against a pine turkey hunting in

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Speaker 1: Colorado shooting. It is now gleaming, and I am hoping

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Speaker 1: that the turkey I hear gobbling wants to come my way.

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Speaker 1: Out of the corner of my eye, a figure appears

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Speaker 1: to the right. It is a camo dressed person and

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Speaker 1: two dogs. He walks in front of me at a

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Speaker 1: hurried pace and stops at twenty yards away. I waved

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Speaker 1: my hand to catch his attention and let off a

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Speaker 1: deep hey. He does not hear or see me. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he whips his pants down and proceeds to take a

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Speaker 1: nice steamer right in front of me. What would you do? Uh?

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Speaker 1: When when do I let him know my presence? Of

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Speaker 1: course I didn't watch. After I figured out what was

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Speaker 1: going on, I went the I'll stay hidden route and

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Speaker 1: he will never know I was here. However, when he

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Speaker 1: got up to walk away, his dog came over to

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Speaker 1: the fully camouflaged me and began growling. I was caught.

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Speaker 1: We both had a good laugh and he apologized coffee

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Speaker 1: had finally kicked in for his bowels. I have not

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Speaker 1: found another hunter that has had this happened to him

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Speaker 1: or her. And I did not bag a turkey that day,

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Speaker 1: but did find a little mule. Dear shed congratulations uh

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Speaker 1: from Keith. Congratulates it's Keith. Now Keith, I had this

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Speaker 1: happened to me, And we talked about it in the

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Speaker 1: quarantine cast with Miles and all day uh he and

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Speaker 1: and he was a co worker of mine, and so

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Speaker 1: this this happened. We told the story where we were

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Speaker 1: elk cunning together and I split off with Joe, Fernando,

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Speaker 1: Jamie and uh Sam Longer and Miles Nulty went another

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Speaker 1: direction and we were going to kind of wrap around

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Speaker 1: these two ridges and then meet up at some point

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Speaker 1: if we hadn't seen any elk. Well, we were coming

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Speaker 1: back down this ridge to where towards where they were,

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Speaker 1: and we came upon this man in first light taking

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Speaker 1: a ship and we were twenty yards maybe behind him.

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Speaker 1: He didn't see us, and I thought for sure at

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Speaker 1: some point he would turn around, but he never did,

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Speaker 1: so we just had to stand there, uncomfortably, uh, about

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Speaker 1: twenty yards while he finished up. And it took a

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Speaker 1: long time. Um, as you would hear if you go

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Speaker 1: back to that episode, because we had eaten some hobanierro

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Speaker 1: wild turkey the night before, and so this has happened

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Speaker 1: to me, and it is very uncomfortable and you have

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Speaker 1: to look away, but then you have to keep checking

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Speaker 1: back to see what's going on. You can't just look

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Speaker 1: away forever. You got to check back to see if

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Speaker 1: he's done, and then check back again. So that's a

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Speaker 1: delicate dance. Um. But you're not alone, Keith, You're not alone.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think Phil you don't have any similar stories.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think no, I mean, no pooping into

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think no, uh no, I I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to think if I've ever even done that. Nope, what nope?

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Speaker 1: I mean I've never been. I've been camping, like I

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Speaker 1: agree and like a lot, but it's never been. I

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Speaker 1: mean maybe I just my body naturally shuts down my

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Speaker 1: bows because I don't want to poop in the woods

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Speaker 1: for a few days. Whoa, whoa, I like where this

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Speaker 1: is going. Oh I don't. We're gonna peel the onions back.

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Speaker 1: That is the onion layers. That is Phil. Now, Phil,

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Speaker 1: you don't are you have a nervous battels in the woods.

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Speaker 1: I'm not. It's not nervous. I think it's just a

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Speaker 1: si not just thing. I don't know. I'm trying to think.

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Speaker 1: I've never pooped in the woods. I never have. Alight

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Speaker 1: this weekend. Your assignment is to just go poop in

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Speaker 1: the woods? Man? Just okay, you've never experienced it. It's

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Speaker 1: so free, I would find. You gotta find like a

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Speaker 1: log to sit on or a tree to lean up against. Um,

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Speaker 1: make sure it's comfortable, make sure you don't you have

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Speaker 1: your whatever you're gonna wipe with in your hand that way,

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Speaker 1: and there's no kind of like movement afterwards. It's a

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Speaker 1: very efficient. That's that's a good tip. There's actually our

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Speaker 1: buddy Mark Kenyon wrote how to Crap in the Woods,

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Speaker 1: an article that's on the media dot com right now.

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Speaker 1: So we'll leave that at that, but Phil will look

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Speaker 1: forward to next episodes. Your report on your first time Okay, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know I'm looking forward to it too. You know,

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Speaker 1: I got a lot of crap for saying two point

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Speaker 1: five um for my Turkey excitement the other week, but

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Speaker 1: crapping in the woods, I think I'm at a solid eight.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, So wait, hold on. It was a two

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Speaker 1: point five level disappointment, but I'm in an eight for

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Speaker 1: excitement for pooping in the woods. Yet makes sense even

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Speaker 1: though it doesn't make sense. Um, alright, we're gonna we

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Speaker 1: got a couple of sheltered perspectives here. Um, even though

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Speaker 1: that's not the official title of the segment. Um. A

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Speaker 1: lot of you sent these in, so thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for sending those in. Next week we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: I know we promised Eric Hall, but Phil and I

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Speaker 1: want to prepare the proper tribute to our friend Eric Hall.

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Speaker 1: We chatted with him last week and from his home

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Speaker 1: and got to know him a little bit better. But

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Speaker 1: we want to prepare a proper tribute for our friend Eric,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna get him next week. But this week

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Speaker 1: we have Joshua Butler. Is that how you'd say that?

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Speaker 1: Phil b E U T L E R. Butler? You know,

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Speaker 1: I think it might just be Butler. What the hell

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Speaker 1: is the E in there, Joshua? You know it's that

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Speaker 1: Europeans christ Man or Boiler Maybe Boiler. I can't Why

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Speaker 1: is there any Smiths out there listening? Then have emails,

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Speaker 1: Lord Heaven, Joshua says. Being an essential worker, a Navy

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Speaker 1: veteran with friends on the quarantine aircraft carrier, and someone

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Speaker 1: who routinely deals with handling hazardous materials, I have unique

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Speaker 1: perspective on the current pandemic and proper use of PPE.

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Speaker 1: I'm a radiation safety technician. Our power plant located on

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Speaker 1: the edge of the New England COVID nineteen quote unquote bubble.

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Speaker 1: We have been deemed essential in order to keep power

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Speaker 1: flowing to the region. Some of my job responsibilities is

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Speaker 1: to ensure the radiological safety of public workers and environment.

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Speaker 1: Working presents many challenges. We have had to fundamentally change

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Speaker 1: the way we perform our jobs. Evolutions that were simple

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Speaker 1: a month ago have become incredibly difficult. We've had to

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Speaker 1: incorporate social distancing and physical barriers such as plexiglass into

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Speaker 1: as many applications as possible to limit the spread of

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Speaker 1: the disease. Even with all the protective measures, there are

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Speaker 1: still a risk of transmission. We are strictly enforcing a

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Speaker 1: quarantine of all personnel who becomes sick or we have

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Speaker 1: been potentially exposed. This leaves the rest of UH, the

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Speaker 1: rest of our staff working extra to ensure minimum staffing

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Speaker 1: too safe, to make sure the safe operation is met.

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Speaker 1: And here's where you know you learn a little bit

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Speaker 1: about Joshua and and where it would get scary for

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Speaker 1: me um As he says, as the father of three

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Speaker 1: young daughters, the threat of bringing home the virus is

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Speaker 1: always at the back of my mind. I spent ten

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Speaker 1: years in the military. My only fear then was the

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Speaker 1: potential of myself not returning from deployment. This is a

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Speaker 1: new perspective for me because I have not had to

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Speaker 1: fear for my loved one's safety. My family is healthy

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Speaker 1: and not in the risk group. But but the thought

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Speaker 1: is always there. UH as someone who regularly deals with

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Speaker 1: has some materials is painful to watch people and properly

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Speaker 1: using PPE. A message I would really like to get

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Speaker 1: out there would be to research their protective equipment to

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Speaker 1: make sure you're not causing more harm than good with it.

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Speaker 1: And then he goes on say, hope this email finds

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Speaker 1: us well, and thank you for the great content to

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Speaker 1: take all our minds off the current date of the world.

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Speaker 1: Josh So, josh um, thanks for that. I don't feel

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Speaker 1: Have you been wearing PPE when you go outside? Uh? Well,

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Speaker 1: I had to do a couple of store runs, try

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Speaker 1: to get stuff delivered when we can, but um, you know,

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Speaker 1: with produce and groceries, it's a little tough. But when

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Speaker 1: I do. Uh, here's the thing. When I read this,

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Speaker 1: it kind of jumped out of me because when he

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Speaker 1: says improperly using PPE, what I've been doing is I

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Speaker 1: after I get out of the car, like between my

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Speaker 1: car and whatever story I'm gonna get into, I put

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Speaker 1: on gloves and I pull like a bandana mask type

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Speaker 1: thing over my mouth. Um, It's not like an in

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Speaker 1: n mask or anything like that, just something just some

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Speaker 1: sort of barrier, mostly for other people's protection rather than mine.

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Speaker 1: Just so I'm getting less moisture into the into the

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Speaker 1: air when I'm breathing. But that's that's pretty much it.

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Speaker 1: And then I you know, I heavily sanitizing wash after

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Speaker 1: all my trips and and stuff like that. But I've

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Speaker 1: never actually like looked up, am I doing this right? Like?

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Speaker 1: Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing with

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Speaker 1: these gloves? Or how how efficient does this mask actually

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Speaker 1: or anything like that right me either? And I think

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Speaker 1: you know, from a Josh's example, obviously he knows things

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Speaker 1: that that they're regular folks don't know. I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: watched some videos and I kind of understand these things,

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Speaker 1: but I'm also the type of person who's very skeptical

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Speaker 1: that it matters at all. But I want to be

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Speaker 1: responsible to the people around me, so I certainly would

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Speaker 1: wear a mask. And I got um if you go

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Speaker 1: back to January, when we're recording podcasts about the birth

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Speaker 1: of my son, I got a little preview of this

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Speaker 1: in January. So basically I've been quarantined for the entire year.

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Speaker 1: When my wife got influenced b um right as she

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Speaker 1: was full term with our son, and so we I

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Speaker 1: had to wear a mask for a week straight in

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Speaker 1: the hospital. Um, so I could be in the room

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Speaker 1: with her, and then we had to sit and kind

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Speaker 1: of be quarantined until she was better and we could

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Speaker 1: have the baby. So UM, I had boxes of masks

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Speaker 1: and got some training from the doctors during that time

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Speaker 1: as toll it to do. And and they're very much

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Speaker 1: explaining what what what. We've all heard that it's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily going to protect you from getting sick, but it's

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Speaker 1: certainly if you're coughing or sick yourself, it can protect

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Speaker 1: the others around you. So that's the way I approach it.

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Speaker 1: But certainly, Josh right and let us know, give us

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Speaker 1: a step by step but what you would do, that's

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Speaker 1: not not a bad thing for all of us. But

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Speaker 1: thanks Josh for doing what you do out there. Stay

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Speaker 1: safe and healthy, take care of your family. Because I said,

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Speaker 1: I know Phil, you probably feel the same. If you

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Speaker 1: get out there in this world and um, you know

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Speaker 1: you might get sick. That's fine, that's something you can

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Speaker 1: deal with. But not knowing whether you're going to bring

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Speaker 1: that home to the family, which is all that matters

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Speaker 1: is um is a fear that I don't know that

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Speaker 1: I could handle. Oh, I mean I I just even

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Speaker 1: if it isn't doing a whole lot, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's not doing any harm. And how hard is it

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Speaker 1: for me to put on some gloves and cover my

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Speaker 1: mouth before I go out to a store. It's it

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Speaker 1: couldn't be easier. And if there's even a chance that

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Speaker 1: one maybe I'm there's one less person that gets you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just like you know, and we're just putting barriers up,

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Speaker 1: and if one less person gets sick, then then it

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Speaker 1: was worth it. So I I it's not a big deal.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just going to continue doing it. Yep. And

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Speaker 1: if if the best quote I've heard about all this,

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Speaker 1: and again I'm not, don't you're not coming to th

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Speaker 1: HC for your for the pandemic response expertise? I hope,

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Speaker 1: I hope you're going elsewhere for that. But all the

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Speaker 1: best quote I've heard thus far is that if if

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Speaker 1: all of it, if we do this right, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: look like an overreaction. If we do all this right,

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Speaker 1: at the end of all of this COVID nineteen, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna look like we overreacted. Um. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's telling to to to what Phil says and what

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Speaker 1: everybody feels, you know, feel silly wearing a mask. But

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Speaker 1: if you can help one person, UM, hopefully that person

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Speaker 1: lives in your home with you, or yelped someone else

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Speaker 1: out in your community that saw you ought to do it.

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Speaker 1: So we will continue reading your emails. We got I

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Speaker 1: got a bunch of other emails that I want to

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Speaker 1: get to later in the weeks to come. We got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of great guests coming up. But for now, UM,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite people and one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: UM conversations is that of Robert C. Jones. If you

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Speaker 1: don't remember Robert, you would go back and listen to

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Speaker 1: our last episode. It was over the summer last year.

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Speaker 1: And actually I remember that being one of the first

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Speaker 1: episodes where we got to know Phil a little bit better.

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Speaker 1: And so here we are, UM, now Phil the Engineers

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Speaker 1: fully bloomed as a part of our team and just

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Speaker 1: a part of our hunting community. He's there, he's he's

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Speaker 1: getting ready to take his first ship in the woods.

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Speaker 1: And now we're going to get to our friend Robert

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Speaker 1: Jones and in a great conversation about you know, what

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Speaker 1: is our what are the bargains of consumption that we make?

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Speaker 1: And what really is death and suffering in the context

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Speaker 1: of of human versus animal interaction. So here he is

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Speaker 1: my friend, Dr Robert C. Jones, Mr Robert C. Jones.

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Speaker 1: How are you, sir Ben. Good to hear from you

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Speaker 1: again and good to be back. Yes, it's great to

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Speaker 1: have you back there. This is much anticipated, I must

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Speaker 1: say from a lot of the emails I've gotten since

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Speaker 1: we announced it last week that you were coming back,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are excited for for our conversation. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to and I wanted to say I was

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Speaker 1: looking through my emails in preparation for this. I received six,

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Speaker 1: exactly sixteen emails from your listeners. I wrote all their

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Speaker 1: names down. I don't know if you want to give shoutouts,

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Speaker 1: but what I can say is I was every single

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Speaker 1: email I got was supportive. I didn't I didn't get

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Speaker 1: any hate mail, So I mean not that your listeners

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Speaker 1: would send me hate mail, but you know, having a

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Speaker 1: vegan on a hunting podcast, I was really pleasantly surprised

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Speaker 1: at how much support and how much encouragement I got

424
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: from the listeners. So thanks to the emails, Well, yeah,

425
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: I would thank thank everybody for doing that and reaching

426
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: out certainly, you know, for me, Um, it's it's nice

427
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: to just reflect on on those moments where you kind

428
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: of take a little bit of a risk. I don't

429
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: know if it's I mean talk to use an not

430
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: a risk. You're a very reasonable person and and there's nothing,

431
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: nothing you know, that gets me, that scares me or

432
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 1: thinks there's any traps involved. But it's nice to do

433
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: something outside the norm. And almost everybody appreciated your approach

434
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: and and appreciated the conversation, and I think that bodes

435
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: well for for what we're trying to do. Yeah, nice

436
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: work work on your part. Yeah. So before we get

437
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 1: into any of the conversation here, what's what's going on

438
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: over there? You it's certainly you were telling me you

439
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 1: had to to adapt to teaching from home, and you're

440
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: kind of in We're not really in a hotspot here

441
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: in Montana, but I'm sure you've got a lot to

442
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 1: deal with over there. And Um, California, So update us

443
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: on what's what's happening in the quarantine. Well since the

444
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: last time we spoke. The last time we spoke, I

445
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: was actually UM working at cal State Chico, which is

446
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: about a hundred and seventy miles north of San Francisco.

447
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: And then this year I took a job down in

448
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: l a. Um and so I'm actually I'm speaking to

449
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: you from Hollywood, California. I teach here at California State

450
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: University to Ming's Hills this year and um and so

451
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: I moved from Chico, a kind of bucolic little college town.

452
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: I picked the wrong time to move back into the

453
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: you know, the the layer of of you know, the

454
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 1: virus here. So the good thing is is that California

455
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: was a little bit ahead of things, and it's not

456
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like it was it is over

457
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: in New York. Um so, but you know, it's still

458
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: it's still not super safe. But I do have to say,

459
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: ben I I do try to acknowledge a few things,

460
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: Like one is I'm really blessed to be able to

461
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: have I mean, my gig. I'm teaching online. I took

462
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: all of my courses that were taught in the classroom

463
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: move them online. And so I have the kind of

464
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: job where I'm at least as far as I can see,

465
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: I don't have a threat to my income. So there's

466
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are losing their jobs so

467
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: I feel really fortunate. I feel fortunate that, you know,

468
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: I'm not on the front lines delivering food or in

469
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: the emergency room, So I feel pretty privileged. I mean,

470
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here in my little apartment and I'm teaching

471
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: my classes online, and you know, so I feel like

472
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge that there's a lot of people

473
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: who have it really much worse than I do. So

474
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: it's not too bad. I can't complain. Yeah, that's the

475
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: same here for us. I mean, we've had a lot

476
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: of so, like I told you Florida record, we've been doing.

477
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: We did a daily show for three weeks and this

478
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: is I think this is our eighteenth podcast during the quarantine,

479
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: and it I am reaching out and trying to find

480
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: as many perspectives as I can because this is such

481
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: it's such a different thing for everyone. Everybody has a

482
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: different way of experiencing this, and there's lots of hardship

483
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: out there, and we always try to acknowledge that. But hey,

484
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you're doing okay and you're still you're

485
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: still teaching, still doing my thing. I'm still I'm still

486
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: corrupting the youth here from California. You bat stirred. Uh

487
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: do you do you have any moments during this quarantine

488
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: that you feel that you feel you remember, um looking

489
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: back on this years from now, something weird that happened,

490
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: or something prophetic that you you feel that is worth

491
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: bringing up. Um, I feel like, uh what basically, Okay,

492
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: So here's here's the moment I've been thinking about. Is

493
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 1: I used to think that naively that you know there

494
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: are there were um uh, the government, the government had

495
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: things set in place, like I think about, like, okay,

496
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: here's my gig. I'm I'm a philosophy professor. I prep

497
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: all my stuff, I read, and I make lecture notes

498
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: like going like I do my gig. My gig is

499
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: not pandemic prevention. And I and I foolishly assumed that

500
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: there are people in this country who that's their gig

501
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: to make sure that this stuff is in place. And

502
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: so I had a moment when you know, a few

503
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: weeks ago, where I thought, holy hell, like I'm I'm

504
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: not a survivalist, but I have a whole new respect

505
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: for people who saw ahead and felt like I gotta

506
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: I gotta have supplies and provisions because you know, like

507
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: a lot of people, I was left, you know, thinking

508
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: I gotta go to the store and stand in line

509
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: and stuff. So I did have this moment where I,

510
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: I guess I felt like like things are things are

511
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: much more rickety than I imagine. I thought, like I said, naively,

512
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: I thought that there's people who do this for a living,

513
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: and and now I realized, wow, I really have to

514
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: be much more self sufficient than I than I thought.

515
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: So of course I started looking at like survivalist websites

516
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: and I'm like, damn, I'm ready for the next one.

517
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: I don't if I make it through this one. So

518
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: that was my learning experience. I like the term rickety.

519
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: I really that does describe it so well, uh exactly

520
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: how I feel. Yeah, And I think for me to

521
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: just realizing that the structure in which we kind of

522
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: move on our everyday lives is fragile, and we're we're

523
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: fragile as well. Obviously, I think we don't we don't

524
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: sit up in the morning and realize either of those things,

525
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: nor would we want to on a daily basis. But

526
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: now you have to, um and it takes it takes

527
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: form in a lot of weird ways. I've had some

528
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: just really weird personal exchanges with people, where some people

529
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: really want to acknowledge you. They want to reach out

530
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: from six ft away at least and say, hey, I

531
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: see you. I'm happy. I hope you're happy. And there's

532
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: other people that just do not want to be that

533
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: do not want to look anyone in the eye, I

534
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: don't want to be close to anyone. Are just reeling

535
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: from from human human contact. I imagine you see a

536
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: lot of that in Hollywood. Yeah. In fact, yesterday, you

537
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: know today, I had a little emergency in the morning

538
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: with my washing machine. Yesterday, I went to start the

539
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: car and the battery was dead, of course, and so

540
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: I I've got my backpack and I walked. I hadn't

541
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: I hadn't really left my house and like ten days,

542
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: and I walked down to Hollywood and Vine to the

543
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: pet boys there to get a battery for the car.

544
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: And it was definitely surreal. Um, Hollywood and Vine is

545
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: usually packed, and it was empty. But I did see

546
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of people along the way, and uh, I

547
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: noticed exactly what you're talking about. There were some people

548
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: as I was walking, we you know, everyone had masks

549
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: and stuff, but there was this kind of like for

550
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: some people, there was this kind of acknowledgement, Like we

551
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: looked at each other and sort of either waved or

552
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: you know, made made whatever a little connection like hey,

553
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, we're in this together. And then there and

554
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: then there was and I count myself among those people.

555
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: And then there were the people who man, they were

556
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: just walking down the street, didn't acknowledge, no acknowledgement whatsoever.

557
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: And I thought, wow, it's it's kind of a weird. Uh.

558
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: It's like a sociological phenomenon when you're un there's this

559
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: kind of pressure. How do you respond to you feel

560
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: like you want to reach out or do you want

561
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: to you know, hide? And so it was a weird thing.

562
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: But fortunately I got home, put the battery in the

563
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: car started, so I had you know, that's part of

564
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: my like self self sufficiency. I was like, I can't

565
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: be left without a car. What if there's an earthquake

566
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: I'm in l A or what if there's an I

567
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: gotta you know, I gotta be able to get out

568
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: of here. So anyway, there you got more self sufficiency

569
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: on my pod. I like it. I like it. Yeah,

570
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: And for me, I've been been really focused on just

571
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: how people around me react and and examining my own

572
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: reaction to this whole thing, and even in the conversations

573
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: we've been having in the last three or four weeks,

574
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: trying to to make sure, you know, I personally document

575
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: for everybody listening kind of what I'm going through. Like

576
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: you said, my my experience has been just kind of like, well,

577
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: I gotta stay home more than I would otherwise, and

578
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: it's you know, and take care of two little kids.

579
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: But it's not so at um. So I'm glad to

580
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: hear that, so we can put that part to bed

581
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: and get onto what I think everybody wants to hear

582
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: because us talk about veganism, animal rights, hunting, and the like. Um,

583
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: have you thought much? You know, our last conversation. We

584
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: won't rehash you know, exactly how it went or or

585
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, I know, we both think it was productive.

586
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: And in almost every listener that I interacted with back

587
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: then and to this point, because it's still available for

588
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: folks to download and they do, UM has has reacted

589
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: with with positivity and supportive, supportive nature. Why do you

590
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: think that is? Do you think there's something in their

591
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: approach or you know, how does that make you feel? Well? Okay?

592
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: So I did try yesterday. I thought, let me listen

593
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: to that. I guess I hadn't listened to the podcast,

594
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: and I thought, let me like kind of familiarize myself

595
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: with what we talked about, just to get get it

596
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: in my head. So I did listen. It's it's really

597
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: difficult for me to listen to myself. So I made

598
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: like about half an hour in. I was like, I'm

599
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: not I'm sounding kind of foolish. So um, but first

600
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: of all, I do think that uh, and I'm not

601
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: just you know, this is not just false compliments. I

602
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: do think that UM your ability as as an interviewer,

603
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: but also your ability to um to see to be

604
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: pretty open minded and see different points of view because

605
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: you know, when we first started today, you said something,

606
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: you mentioned something like trapped and trapped mentor traps. But

607
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: that was my original reluctance was like, Okay, is this

608
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: gonna be like a hatchet job, Like I'm gonna go

609
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: onto this podcast and I'm gonna get you know, minced,

610
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna edit it and make it sound

611
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: like I'm a lunatic. So but so that so I think,

612
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: I think, first of all, a lot of the success

613
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: if they're you know, for whatever success there was in

614
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: our first dialogue has to do with your intelligence and

615
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: your experience and your understand being an open mindedn So

616
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: that was that was that had a lot to do

617
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: with it, I think. And and secondly, UM, I think

618
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: that you know, a lot of animal rights people or vegans, um,

619
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: rightly or wrongly, have a reputation for uh maybe intolerance

620
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: or self righteousness or holier than now kinds of things.

621
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: And that's that's a position that I actively try to

622
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: um counter in my own life as an animal rights person.

623
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: So hopefully, I mean partially. Part of what I hope

624
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: was successful about our discussion last time was that I

625
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: explicitly wanted to come onto your podcast and make the

626
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: point that, UM, there are actually a lot of issues

627
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: on which people like you and I agree, and our positions,

628
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: although in some ways it might be opposed, in other ways,

629
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: are actually congruent and and there's there's room for like

630
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: reasonable disagreement as opposed to you know, a hunter and

631
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: a vegan yelling at each other or something like that. UM,

632
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: and I have heard some other podcast with other gets.

633
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: I won't mention them, but I have watched you know,

634
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: vegans and hunters, and they it's it's it's just I

635
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: can't even last a minute. I can't either. I do

636
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: think that, you know, that's part of what I think

637
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 1: the success was. Yeah, you know, I said we won't

638
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: dwell on this too much. But I really do think

639
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: that there is there's a version of this where both

640
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: of these things are made on on each side, right

641
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: on each pole. If you were to say an animal

642
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: rights activists or a die hard hunter who doesn't really

643
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: accept the point of view, they're made to seem like

644
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: they're not an approachable it's not an approachable subject um.

645
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: People are. People are scared of those social land mines

646
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: that they might step on. They may be you know,

647
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: I've experienced more criticism from within the hunting world, not

648
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: specifically on our conversation, but just just in general as

649
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: my activities as someone who produces media that I have

650
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: from the outside world, whether it's you know, whether you

651
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: put an anti hunters or vegans or animalrights activists. So

652
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of fear baked in on

653
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: both sides. I don't know if do you feel that

654
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: on on your side as you try to push for

655
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: a more reasonable way to talk about veganism and animal

656
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 1: rights is is do you feel more heat from within

657
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: that community than from without? Well, I certainly feel when

658
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: I do things like this, I do. I do feel

659
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: a little nervous sometimes thinking, um, is this going to

660
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: be perceived as as me uh being like a turncoat

661
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: or abandoning the cause in some way? And um and

662
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: I and you know there are there are uh sections

663
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: or sectors of the animal rights movement that wouldn't condone

664
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: me even having this conversation. But I think, um, so

665
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: I do feel some pressure. I don't know how much

666
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: of it is real. It could be imaginary on my part,

667
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: but you know I do. When I have told people

668
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: about our podcast and sent it out to folks and

669
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, animal rights people, and I was pleasantly surprised

670
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: I didn't get any uh discouraging commentary. Everyone thought, wow,

671
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: that was really great, and people thought, like I said,

672
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: Ben about you. People are like because, like, like we've

673
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: talked about before, there's this caricature of hunters and there's

674
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: a caricature of vegans. And I think people who I

675
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: shared the podcast with, we're pleasantly surprised at encountering someone

676
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: like you who you know, you're not, like you said,

677
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: even from some hardcore hunters, you might get pushed back.

678
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: So I think that was that was um. That was

679
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: a positive side to this, was exposing not only me

680
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: as someone who's engaging with a hunter to animal rights

681
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: people who I've sent it to, but also your thoughtfulness

682
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: and intelligence was people like, oh, okay, so it's not like,

683
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's not a bunch of wackos who like

684
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: to kill things. Right. So just like people may have heard, oh,

685
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: not all vegans are lunatic, right, So hopefully that that

686
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: that kind of um, yeah, that disseminated among those people

687
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: who listen to Go There's something to be said on

688
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: both of these ends. I see, I really do see

689
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: this lately as I think about it, I see like

690
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: this is an active struggle for me personally. You know,

691
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: I've heard this from a lot of people too, And

692
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people that listen to this show are

693
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: are new to hunting, and they're in their thirties or forties,

694
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: and they're wrestling with some of these you know, more

695
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: ethical questions, morality, um, some of the entanglements of just

696
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: kind of what is an essence of like a tragedy

697
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: that you've inflicted on something like that is um. That's

698
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: a big part of it. So I see this as

699
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: an active struggle for me. But I get so much

700
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: from hunting that I feel like I would I would

701
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: be remiss if I if I got, you know, remove

702
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: that from my life, because there is this active struggle

703
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: within me. UM. And so it's a balance you get

704
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: you feel that about about your own consumption and your

705
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: own feeling about animals. It's like there is there is

706
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: some active struggle with you trying to figure out a

707
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 1: very complex interaction. Oh yeah, it's and this is something

708
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: that I've come to over years UM of first starting

709
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: out like many vegans, I imagine thinking that I sort

710
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: of found the solution to ending suffering, and thinking that

711
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: my own personal consumer behavior is in some way going

712
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: to have this impact or it's it separates me, it

713
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: it sort of purifies me in some way. And and

714
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: then you know that that view I quickly got reality

715
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: crashed in that view. And then the more I looked

716
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: into it, realizing this is a constant struggle and it's

717
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: a very complicated UM situation. It's a very complicated dynamic

718
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: of consumption impact suffering and and and the way it

719
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: all plays out. So yeah, I do feel um, I

720
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: do feel like as I mentioned the last time we

721
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: were together, the last time we talked, um, I do

722
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: see veganism and and this kind of lifestyle as an aspiration.

723
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: And there's no everyone has blood on their hands. So

724
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: it's for me, it's a question of how can I,

725
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: within reason, you know, within a reasonable amount, how can

726
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: I decrease suffering? Here? I am in you know, the

727
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: most affluent culture probably in the world, and I live

728
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: in a metropolitan area. I have a you know, a

729
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: decent income, and I have um the ability to make

730
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: choices with my purchases and and my lifestyle and my

731
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: being an exemplar perhaps two people who are struggling with

732
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: how to be a vegan, and so all of this

733
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: is very complex, And these questions of decreasing suffering, you

734
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: have to look at them in the light of day.

735
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: You can't think, well, I went to the store and

736
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: I bought tofu and everything's cool. In every purchase, every

737
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: interaction I have as a consumer or as a professor,

738
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: these things have effects. And so too to think that

739
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: I'm in some way outside the circle of suffering, or

740
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 1: I've removed myself from that. That's just that that's see,

741
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: that's that's a case if you if you, I think,

742
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: if you believe that, it's a kind of a bad faith.

743
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: You know, this is it's a bad faith. It's like

744
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: you have to accept that you're a cause, you know,

745
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: we're we're entangled in this web of suffering and and

746
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: and and killing and and that includes human beings, that

747
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: includes you know, people from non affluent nations, that includes animals,

748
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 1: that includes the environment, the water, so all that stuff

749
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: is affected by each one of us, and and and

750
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: so it is. It's complicated. And how you know, the

751
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 1: way that I choose to address that or the way

752
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: you choose to address that, um, those might take different paths.

753
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: I think the important thing, though, is to have that

754
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: that kind of epiphany to say this is really complicated

755
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: and to think, you know, for me to think, well,

756
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna buy tofu and and and be fine,

757
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: or for a hunter to think, well, I'm just gonna

758
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna I'm not gonna buy any agriculture, big

759
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: agg products, and I'm just gonna live off the you know,

760
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: each one of those or choices that comes it comes

761
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: with um kind of welfare or suffering a footprint, and

762
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 1: the first step is to realize it. And then I think,

763
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, Ben, you're like this too.

764
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: It's like being cognizant of the fact and that that.

765
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: But this way you you said something last time. I

766
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: remember you said, it's like you and I we sort

767
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: of started with the same worldview and we sort of

768
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: walked into different directions, but we both had the kind

769
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: of philosophy of lowering our impact on the environment and

770
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: the planet and the animals and and so um acknowledging

771
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: that is really important. And my fear is that and

772
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is this is just armchair empirical,

773
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: you know, speculating, but my fear is that a lot

774
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: of people who are vegans and a lot of people

775
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: are hunters don't don't get to that moment where they're like,

776
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: wait a second, this is a lot more complex. I

777
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: wish life were as simple as I'll just be a

778
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: vegan or I'll just hunt for my food myself, but

779
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: when in fact, it's very complicated, especially when you follow

780
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: those you know, when you follow your your trail to

781
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: the ultimate mode or the ultimate point of suffering, from

782
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: your consumption. It's it's pretty complicated. Yeah, it is. And

783
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: that's that's the one thing that I think about always,

784
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: is it could be a solution. You know, it's a

785
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: solution to a myriad of problems with kind of the

786
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: constructs of who we are and how we move through

787
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: the world. And it's something that starts out as personal,

788
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: but then if you care enough, you kind of want

789
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: to share it with other people because it's important to you.

790
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: My I think the biggest issue right now with me,

791
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: other than just kind of discussing some of the finer

792
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: details of of the act of killing versus you know,

793
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: the act of like the suffering and and something that

794
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: we'll get to is simply the when when you think

795
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: you have the solution. Right, if I'm a hunter and

796
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: I say I have the solution, just kill wild animals

797
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: and everything will be fine. Um. And if if a

798
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: vegan or animal rights persons said, just just adopted this

799
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: certain diet, this certain way of moving, and you have,

800
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: you're absolved. You stopped, you stopped thinking critically about a

801
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 1: very important thing. You stop being adaptive in your reasoning,

802
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: and you and you stop being flexible and being able

803
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: to change and grow as your understanding of these interactions

804
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: changes and grows, and that's frustrating to me. And I think, um,

805
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 1: if there's one thing that we could kind of examine

806
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: here is how to kind of bring out of the

807
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: shadows the bulk of the people who are just like

808
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: you and I, who have very passionate about some idea,

809
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: but at the same time are willing to accept that

810
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 1: it's not prescriptive for everyone or at the same time

811
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: necessarily only right way to do it. Um. I've just

812
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: maybe I'm maybe I am suffering from reading too many

813
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: social media posts from one or the other, but it

814
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: just it just doesn't seem like that group is represented anywhere,

815
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: especially within animal rights. You see, I see a lot

816
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: of boy, there's a lot of bombastic, like over the

817
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 1: top imagery and and a lot of things that are

818
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: that are meant to shock people into into into paying attention.

819
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: I imagine. Yeah. I mean, if you look at an

820
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: organization like Peter People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals,

821
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: they are I mean, they're they're really brilliant at manipulating

822
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: the media. Um, and you know, being being provocative works.

823
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: I mean, whether or not that's I mean, whether or

824
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: not we like it. So, UM, I don't really keep

825
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: up much on the vegan social media as much as

826
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: I probably should. I, but I see, I see you know,

827
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: provocative kind of UM imagery, and you know, it does work.

828
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: It does work to have people to to to to

829
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: UM kind of like get people's emotions riled up and

830
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So yeah, I don't I don't follow

831
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: it as much as I used to, but I but

832
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: I do think that, um, I do think that the well,

833
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: let me put it this way, there's a power there's

834
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: a power imbalance and this is not and I'm not

835
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: justifying any kind of UM misrepresentation, like if there are

836
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: photographs or if there are ways that things are presented

837
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: imagery that's misrepresentative. You know, I don't endorse that. I

838
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 1: do think though, that there is an extreme power imbalance. Right,

839
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: So we live in a culture that is you know,

840
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: some people call it car no no normativity. Right, It's

841
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: like it's like eating meat is just the norm right.

842
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: And so I don't have what percentage of people in

843
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: the world of vegetarian four or something. In the United States,

844
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: it's like two. So it's it's pretty small, right. So,

845
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: I mean, when you have a small group, a relatively

846
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: small group of people who have this position that you know,

847
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: oh well, animals are moral, there's moral subjects, and the

848
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of people don't agree with that, or at

849
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: least in practice, they don't agree with it. And you

850
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: have a country with you know, thirty million people and

851
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: four million guns. I think I'm not I'm when I'm

852
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: trying to, I can understand where the um, the kind

853
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: of like the anger and the moral outrage comes from.

854
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: It's sort of like you're you're you're like a lone

855
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: wolf saying and you know, saying, hey, pay attention to

856
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: this issue. No one's really giving a crap about this issue. Yeah,

857
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: And I always hear this is the one thing it

858
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: comes up. And I said, I've said this in the past,

859
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: and her repeated this over many shows that I do.

860
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: If if I felt, you know, just removing on my

861
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,919
Speaker 1: own personal feelings for a moment, if I felt that this,

862
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, there was mass murder being committed and there

863
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 1: was this whole the relationship between these two things was domineering,

864
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: and humans were abusing on mass um animals as it were,

865
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: I probably, you know, you would become an activist because

866
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: that's one hell of a world view to take that

867
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: that that's got to be associated with a lot of

868
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: anger and a lot of um, you know, the need

869
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: to be louder and louder to be to be heard.

870
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: And that also the thing, you know, and talking to

871
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: um Matt ivileiaves Matt Johnson from direct action everywhere. I

872
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: think about that guy way too often, more than more

873
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: than I probably should, because it was just like I

874
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: did that interview before what you and I chatted, and

875
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful that I got to talk to him

876
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: then talk to you. Um. I didn't necessarily think it

877
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: was going to be as impactful having these conversations in

878
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: that way, But I think about him often because one

879
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: of the most disturbing parts of my conversation with him

880
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: from my perspective was that he kept bringing in slavery

881
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: and other you know, atrocities, you know, the holycaust all

882
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: these other things that we're comparatively uncomfortable for me. But

883
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: maybe that's the point. So I would love to hear

884
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: from you like I've I've heard these comparisons a lot,

885
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: not just from Matt but from others. Is that something

886
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: that you're comfortable with using those comparisons to kind of

887
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: to to help people understand the worldview. That's a really

888
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: uh touchy topic and I and I think so so

889
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: on the one hand, and just to echo what you're saying,

890
00:49:52,960 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: I understand that there is um a comparison. So so

891
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: let me let me back up a little bit. So,

892
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: first of all, in globally speaking, about seventy to a

893
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: hundred billion animals are slaughtered a year annually for food

894
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: and products. Right, so, so the entire in the entire

895
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 1: history of the of the planet Earth, there have only

896
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: existed a hundred and ten billion Homo sapiens in the

897
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: past two fifty thousand years. So every year a hundred

898
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: hundred billions, say seventy to a hundred billion sentient beings

899
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:44,959
Speaker 1: are slaughtered, mostly mostly vastly and unnecessarily because well, whether

900
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: or not it's required to have meat in your diet

901
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: or to the degree that people have it, you know,

902
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: those are those are different questions. So so first of all,

903
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: the numbers are staggering, and I don't think that I

904
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: don't think that most people hunter or non hunter, and

905
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: most people think, yeah, like pigs and cows and chickens,

906
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: and now with a lot of scientific data, fish and

907
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: a lot of foul there other they feel pain, right,

908
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 1: So so it's not a question, it's not a question

909
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: of a question about the physiology of these beings. So

910
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: you have seventy to a hundred billion sentient beings are

911
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 1: slaughtered every year, So that's massive. It's you can't even

912
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: wrap your mind around the number of animals that are

913
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: killed for food. So if you have seventy to a

914
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: hundred billion sentient beings that are for the most part,

915
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: for a vast majority of their unnecessarily suffering and unnecessarily killed,

916
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: that's a moral atrocity. It's a moral atrocity. So so

917
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: it's something to say, Holy Toledo, what the hell are

918
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: we doing? How have we gotten to this point where

919
00:51:52,440 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: where we have this this industrial the system systemic um

920
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: uh suffering. That's you know, such a high level. So

921
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: so that putting that in in in in that in

922
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: those terms, it's real. It really is start it's startling,

923
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: and it should be it should cause people to stop

924
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: and and think. Now, on the other hand, um there

925
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: there has been a long history of people, for example,

926
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: African Americans or Africans all over the world and and

927
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: with regard to the Holocaust, Jews and Gypsies and other

928
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: subaltern populations who have been uh compared dec you know,

929
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: in a derogatory way with animals. Right, So there's this

930
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 1: ugly history of African Americans, of Asians, of of of

931
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: of Jews, right and so and so to compare to say, oh, yeah,

932
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: what we do to pigs is similar just like what

933
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: people slave owners did two slaves. There there's a there's

934
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: a there's a sensitivity. You can't ignore the history. And

935
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: for people, you know, they're African Americans and and and uh,

936
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: other minority groups who look at things like that, Peter

937
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: does and says like, how can you do this kind

938
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: of comparison. It's it's it's really uh, it's it's totally

939
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: insensitive to the to the history. And for that I agree,

940
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: and I feel like that is something that's important and

941
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 1: and but what I want to say is it's it's

942
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: a it's a it's a fine line. I don't think

943
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: that no comparisons can be made. I think it's important

944
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: to do it in a particular context. It's important for

945
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: historically oppressed people's to recognize that there are similarities between

946
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: the ways that non human animals have been treated are

947
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: are being treated, and and and oppressed groups, but also

948
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: on the on the part of animal rights folk to

949
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: just just sort of like really nilly go like this

950
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: is just like the Holocaust or this is just like slavery.

951
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: That to me is that's really being insensitive. And the

952
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: last thing if I can can say is that um

953
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: the reason why and going back to our conversation earlier

954
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: about the issue of species is um and and and saying, look,

955
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: humans are supreme, we reign supreme, and we're just better

956
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: for all these reasons. That's part of the reason. The

957
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 1: the way that species is m and human supremacy are

958
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: just embedded in human culture. That can account for the

959
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: reason why when someone calls you a dog or a pig,

960
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: like the fact that that's even a derogatory term speaks

961
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: to the way the way these ideas of species um

962
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: and human supremacy are just embedded in like human culture.

963
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 1: So so so even going back to the question of

964
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: like why do people compare oppressed groups to animals in

965
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: a way to lower their moral value, and that is

966
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: why do we do that to animals in the first place.

967
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: So it's a very complicated it's a very complicated relationship,

968
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 1: but I do agree with you when and I don't

969
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: know Matt and you know personally, but whenever I see

970
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 1: um animal rights people sort of just nonchalantly saying this

971
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: is like the Holocaust. I my response, I feel like,

972
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't think we're help you know,

973
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: that's not helping the movement. That that's the average person

974
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: is going to go, what the hell? You know, why

975
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: why are you? So it's very problematic. But again, I

976
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: just want to go on record as saying I do

977
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: think that there it's legitimate to make certain comparisons, but

978
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: the way that it's done has to be done thoughtfully

979
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: and sensitively. Yeah, I appreciate that, because that's the one

980
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: thing that I wish I had said to Matt and

981
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: would say to other animal rights folks. It's like you,

982
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: I understand, I understand. I think I understand. The point

983
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: you're trying to make is that that we as as

984
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: a human species, have have inflicted lots of unnecessary pain

985
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: on each other and on the world and on the environment,

986
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 1: on the world around us. Just as the very nature

987
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: of our existence we are an imperfect, you know, an

988
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: imperfect organism. We just kind of consume and consume and consume. Um,

989
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: We've we've inflicted a lot of death for for reasons

990
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: that now don't seem justified. I So I get it

991
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: in making that point that you know, history, if if

992
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: history is our guide, we know that we've we've made

993
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: some some really terrible decisions as as just us. And

994
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: so I get that. But then it just seems like

995
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 1: a logical parachute and and really also a way of intimidation,

996
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: a way to make people uncomfortable and kind of scare

997
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: them a little bit into into kind of adopting this

998
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: belief or at least semantically adopting this belief, which you know,

999
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: if you really going to create a movement, having a

1000
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: bunch of people that are kind of intimidated and coerced

1001
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 1: into stepping into it, under like, well maybe this is

1002
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: slavery and maybe I don't understand it. Um, it just

1003
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: felt to me like every time we would kind of

1004
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: get into a point where we could we got into

1005
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: a sticky piece of the conversation. Matt and then other

1006
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: folks in the animal rights movement that I've talked to

1007
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: kind of used this as a way to just let's

1008
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: pull the parachute, and let's push this into a corner

1009
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: and and kind of keep it, uh in the frame

1010
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: that I need to keep it in. And so I

1011
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 1: like I just like you. I think I'm kind of

1012
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: I understand it in the way that it's trying to

1013
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: frame the conversation. I get it, and I do. And

1014
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: I always said, I think I may have said in

1015
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: your in our conversation or in the conversation Matt, I'm

1016
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: not one that's gonna say we've been doing it for

1017
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: millions of years, so we gotta keep doing it. Um,

1018
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: that's not in my playbook. I don't think that's ever

1019
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: that you know, we can learn from history, but we're

1020
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: not going to could just continue to justify all these things.

1021
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: So it's that's one that just bothered me personally. And

1022
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: I've been trying to work through it and understand it,

1023
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: and I just keep seeing it pop up. So I

1024
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: appreciate the way that you certainly take it on and

1025
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: and and moved to it. But one thing you said

1026
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: a little bit ago that that I had written down

1027
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: that I kind of wanted to discuss and at least

1028
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: get your point of view. When I've read a couple

1029
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: of different studies and surveys that UM sixty upwards of

1030
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: six or more of vegans, specifically vegans are in our

1031
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: our eating that diet or practicing that lifestyle based on

1032
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: an ideology rather than the nutrition of it. UM. My

1033
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: good friend Joe Rogan had a bunch of UM uproar

1034
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: around James Wilkes documentary on Netflix called Game Changers, and

1035
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: then he had Brian Chris Krasher on he was a

1036
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: nutritionist that was kind of refuting some of the nutrition

1037
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: elements of this. And I just sent Joe a text

1038
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: and said, hey man that that's fine. The nutritional part

1039
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: of this is fine, and I think we will continue

1040
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: to debate that, but let's not forget about just the

1041
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: ideological drawl here of veganism. Is that is that something

1042
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: you found in your and your teachings and and in

1043
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: your own community, that it's it's that sixty forty split

1044
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: of I'm here to inflict less suffering and I'm here

1045
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: to be healthier. Yeah, I know what, I don't know.

1046
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: This is all anecdotal. I think that veganism recently UM

1047
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: has UH has increased mostly due to questions of health

1048
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: and sort of like plant based you know, having a

1049
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: plant based diet as opposed to having a moral or

1050
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: ethical diet. So it seems in recent years, just as

1051
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: I said, just my observations, it seems like a lot

1052
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: of people who identify as vegan are doing so for

1053
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: health reason ends or maybe just because it's a trend

1054
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: trendy kind of thing. Um. When you say, when you

1055
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 1: say ideology, I do want to um. I mean, ideology

1056
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 1: can be a loaded term, and I've heard ideology used

1057
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: as and I'm not saying you're doing this, the term

1058
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: ideology can be like a signal to I think a

1059
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: better way to put for me to think about it

1060
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: is having like a moral or ethical stance relative to

1061
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: your your diet and things like that with with regard

1062
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: to veganism. So, so are there a bunch of people

1063
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: I think. Here's what I found is the whole connection

1064
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: between the connection between the environmental impact and this is

1065
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: something you and I talked that before, and we agree, right,

1066
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: the environmental impact of of agribusiness, of massive animal food

1067
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: production is I mean it's it's it's one of the

1068
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: largest um producers of greenhouse gas. So so there's a

1069
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: lot of people who are like, hey, as an environmentalist,

1070
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna adopt this plant based lifestyle, and then there

1071
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: are people who are, yeah, like I want to be healthier.

1072
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: I think the number of people who do it as

1073
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: as a for like a political or an ethical reasons

1074
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: for as a stand stand standpoint, I think that's probably

1075
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: that's that's probably the lowest person. Maybe it's forty percent.

1076
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: Maybe it's um. You know, so I do notice that

1077
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: that there is this. I mean, look, veganism, at least

1078
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: for now in the in the culture, relative to how

1079
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 1: it was ten years ago, it's it's exploding. I know that.

1080
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: I remember when I first became vegan years ago, I

1081
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: would if I went into a restaurant and say, like,

1082
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: is this thing vegan? People would say what is? What

1083
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 1: are you talking about? Now it's like, at least in California, right,

1084
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: And you know, I've been around the country in New

1085
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: York and Philadelphia, like I can go to a restaurant

1086
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: and say is this vegan? People actually know what the

1087
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: hell I'm talking about? So there is a movement. But

1088
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: I think it I think it does have to do

1089
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: mostly with environmental concerns or or health concerns. But um,

1090
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: and you know, please don't get me started on your

1091
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: buddy Joe Rogan. I think you know Joe, he obviously

1092
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: has an act to grind, and I mean we all

1093
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: have certain acts to grind, but um regard, I mean,

1094
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not a nutritionist, but I do think

1095
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: that there are plenty of people in on the planet

1096
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: who are physical living manifestations of of who have physical health,

1097
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: who do not consume animal products. So and I can't

1098
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 1: get into like, you know, this person said this and

1099
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: that nutrition as you can imagine, you can find a

1100
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: nutritionist too who will say you should only eat celery

1101
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: and you should find people at sake. So amen, because

1102
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: that's exactly what brings it up. But yeah, hey, to

1103
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: this point, the point of that podcast I mentioned Joe

1104
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I mean James Wilkes. He had Chris

1105
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: Krasher on to crush James Wilkes's Game Changers documentary, and

1106
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: then James Wilkes came on and just completely flipped the

1107
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: script and dominated the conversation and changed Joe's mind. Um, well,

1108
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 1: that's good to hear, because I didn't hear about the

1109
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: I didn't hear about what the Wilkes appearance, but I

1110
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: saw the other pressure appear. So wil Wilkes just basically

1111
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 1: walked in the door and kicked the ship out of

1112
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: Crasher and made him look like a fool. Um. And

1113
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 1: so for me, that's even more I I just don't

1114
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like even in this conversation, I

1115
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: would like you said, I think, and I'm glad you

1116
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: said it. I think there you can find a nutritionist

1117
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: to say just about anything, because it's such an exploratory world,

1118
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: um for And so when I'm listening to that, I'm like, yes,

1119
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: I get all this, and you know he my iron

1120
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: and beat twelve. I under like I want to understand

1121
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: those I don't want to make sure our audience understands them.

1122
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: But I thought, you know, really, at the heart of

1123
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: a lot of this is, you know, the point that

1124
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: I think you and I can discuss it is just

1125
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 1: the death and suffering part and the morality part, because

1126
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: I think whether it's four or twenty or ten, it's

1127
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: certainly I think underlies many many vegans thought processes. And

1128
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: also it should underlie and I has to underlie many

1129
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: hundreds thought processes. Um. And so I think that's I'd

1130
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: like to lay I wanted to just lay that out

1131
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 1: to say that, like, we could certainly both go get

1132
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: twenty different papers, whether it's epidemiology or you know, data

1133
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: driven other data driven studies and present our cases to

1134
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: each other and try to, you know, try to back

1135
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: up what we believe the best diet is. But it's

1136
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: so it's cultural societal. I mean, there's so many impacts

1137
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 1: on health and then what we intake that I that

1138
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: in that way, I think I'm not sure if you

1139
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: would agree with this point. I think that if you

1140
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: were to look at you know, big agg in its whole,

1141
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: large scale agriculture, whether it's animals or plants, all of

1142
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 1: it has imperfections, um whether when you're when you're looking

1143
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: at And this is not my intention to kind of

1144
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: go down either of these roads too deeply, because I

1145
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: want to get to kind of the death and suffering part.

1146
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: But there certainly is large sky agriculture is degrading our

1147
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 1: soil and causing runoff. And then we've we've already documented

1148
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 1: large scale animal agriculture is bad for the environment for

1149
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 1: a numerous reasons. It's also bad for the animals if

1150
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: you care at all about their welfare. So I just

1151
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: I think maybe if if we could pause there for

1152
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 1: a moment to kind of get your comment on you know,

1153
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: feeding people out on a large scale almost by its nature, degrades.

1154
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 1: Certainly degrades are our Earth, no question. I mean, we

1155
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: have seven and a half billion people. By the end

1156
01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: of the century, we're gonna have nine billion people. Um,

1157
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: if we were too, if everyone on the planet Earth

1158
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 1: were to have the kind of lifestyle that we have

1159
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: for the most part in the United States, it would

1160
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: require I don't know how many earths, four or five

1161
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 1: earths to produce those kinds of resources. So having this

1162
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: the carrying capacity of this little blue ball is just

1163
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: not up to in the you know, nine billion people

1164
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: that were going to have. And so we have this

1165
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: kind of dilemma and and and there's an intersection of

1166
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: many things like the animal suffering aspect, the environmental impact,

1167
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: the feeding of of humans, keeping humans healthy and viable.

1168
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, these are really gigantic, big problems with

1169
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: regard to producing food for people. I mean, um, one

1170
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: of the arguments that vegans have at the ready is

1171
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: to say, look the amount of and every every anytime

1172
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: I give a talk on veganism, I usually get the

1173
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: question well, if we did away with animal agriculture, Um,

1174
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: then uh, you know, we can't. How are we gonna

1175
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 1: feed people? Like, how's it? How's it gonna How are

1176
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: we gonna have all these people being fed? But the

1177
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that most of the grains

1178
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: that are produced and soy and things like that, the

1179
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: go go to feed animals anyway, to produce meat. So

1180
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: so as far as lowering the impact on a massive

1181
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: scale of of the environmental degradation of the planet is

1182
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: a quote. Plant based diet definitely has on its side

1183
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: that that aspect that it is. It's less harmful to

1184
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 1: the environment. But the point you're raising is, as I

1185
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: mentioned before, in the United States, I mean the number

1186
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 1: is about forty billion chickens. It's about forty billion. Uh,

1187
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: well in the United States, it's not nine billion chickens.

1188
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:05,479
Speaker 1: It's about a few billion pigs and cows. So there's

1189
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 1: massive suffering going on just on at the animal concerned

1190
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: just fully with or solely with animal suffering. So how

1191
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: can we have a diet putting aside for the moment,

1192
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: the environment, How can we have a diet that has

1193
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: a low suffering or a lower suffering impact and This

1194
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: is where I think for me veganism is is it

1195
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: contributes to decreasing the suffering. And and there's interesting there's

1196
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 1: some studies recently done. There's a really great paper that

1197
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,600
Speaker 1: came out last year looking at the supply chains of

1198
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 1: like supermarkets. Because for a long time people said if

1199
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: people go vegan, that doesn't really make a difference, there's

1200
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: no causal efficacy from the consumer to the production of animals.

1201
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: But actually, it turns out the supply chains they have

1202
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: this stuff so dialed in that when you go to

1203
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 1: your supermarket, it doesn't take a hell of a lot

1204
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 1: of people to change their diets to actually impact the

1205
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 1: product animal production side. So I think I think that's

1206
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 1: it really does. As a vegan, you really can make

1207
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: a difference in decreasing animal suffering. And I know you've

1208
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 1: been and people like you who are hunters. I mean,

1209
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: part of your my understanding isn't correct me if I'm wrong,

1210
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: is you're not a big fan of like going to

1211
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,919
Speaker 1: the supermarket and buying a steak and wrapped in plastic

1212
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 1: and taking it home, right, I mean, oh no, I

1213
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 1: would never. I would never do it, Like I'm if

1214
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 1: I just went a year without killing an animal. I

1215
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 1: would begrudgingly borrow wild meat from my friends that I

1216
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: would just My wife and I have arguments about this

1217
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 1: all the time. I say, like, you do not for

1218
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 1: any reason, you know, and she always pushes me like, well,

1219
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 1: I'd love to have some lunch meat. What are you

1220
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,679
Speaker 1: gonna do about that? So we have this a little

1221
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: bit of an adversarial relationship around like, hey, we can't

1222
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: just eat all elk all year, idiot, Like we have

1223
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 1: to have some varied some varied meats like white meats

1224
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 1: and in different things. It's just not palatable for our family.

1225
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,600
Speaker 1: So we do have of that. But yeah, yeah, that

1226
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 1: that that point really I think goes to like where

1227
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 1: do we where we agree? Like it just every I've

1228
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 1: had it since we you know, our conversation actually yours

1229
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 1: and mine last time really inspired me to go down

1230
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 1: and we've done this. I mean, we've talked about regenative

1231
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 1: agriculture on this show. I visited I've visit a ranch

1232
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 1: in Texas and got to see regenerative agriculture firsthand and

1233
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 1: learned about soil health and soil biology. Um, we've had

1234
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, other folks on the on the program that

1235
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: I've sure started like local butchery co ops where people

1236
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 1: are um able to butcher their own animals and share

1237
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: the meat and kind of everybody knows where the meat

1238
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: comes from. So all of this is kind of inspired

1239
01:10:55,320 --> 01:11:00,639
Speaker 1: meating to to understand more of the tangible, let less

1240
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 1: the intangible, the the idea that there is some diet,

1241
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, because because the question I always

1242
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 1: ask is veganism is better, Well, what form of veganism.

1243
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 1: Veganism comes in so many different forms. I'm sure, um,

1244
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: I don't practice it, but I know and I know

1245
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 1: wild people that are hunters take part in the practice

1246
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,600
Speaker 1: in many different forms. Some people kill one deer a

1247
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 1: year and just eat that deer, and also by steaks. Um.

1248
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 1: Some people like me really abhorre um that factory farming

1249
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 1: and not knowing wrong meat comes from. Because as I,

1250
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 1: as we'll discussed here in a little bit, like I

1251
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: kind of know what that death feels like, and I

1252
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 1: know what it is to look that in the eye,

1253
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 1: and I would never um want to be a proxy

1254
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,600
Speaker 1: for that um anywhere else. So it's like those understandings

1255
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: lead me to kind of maybe a little bit of

1256
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 1: an animal rights perspective maybe a little bit of more

1257
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 1: over the vegan perspective of like, this is not sustainable

1258
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: on a large scale um And at the same you know,

1259
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 1: I said, at the same time, large scale plan out

1260
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,320
Speaker 1: your culture is is in and of itself, even that

1261
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:13,679
Speaker 1: practice is is harmful as well, given the many variable

1262
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:16,679
Speaker 1: variables in that as well. So it's I I kind

1263
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 1: of just stop and say, I want to understand the

1264
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:22,720
Speaker 1: tangible better. Who's starting a local farm, who is backyard

1265
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: gardening and keeping bees in her backyard and having chickens,

1266
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 1: who is doing what we said, what you said at

1267
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,600
Speaker 1: the beginning is becoming more self sufficient in a in

1268
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,599
Speaker 1: a more holistic fashion. And for me personally, and this

1269
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 1: is just me personally, hunting has brought me to that

1270
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 1: idea because it taught me what I could do in

1271
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 1: my own self sufficiency and it's kind of given me

1272
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 1: this aspiration to have a life that's that's holistic in

1273
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: that way. So I mean, you know, that's only my

1274
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: personal experience, and it's it's driven me to to to

1275
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 1: just say, like, what's the tangible rather than the intangible.

1276
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: But because I think all mass production and all the

1277
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 1: feeding of our eventually seven to nine billion people is

1278
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,840
Speaker 1: going to be imperfect and just by it, by the

1279
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 1: nature of of what we're trying to accomplish. Well, yeah, Ben,

1280
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 1: I mean here's what I wonder about when you raise

1281
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 1: that the self sufficiency UM. When I think about the

1282
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 1: popular going back to our question the population um and

1283
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: I respect. I mean when you say something like, well,

1284
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:34,240
Speaker 1: there's someone who could maybe shoot a deer and and

1285
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,920
Speaker 1: make that meet last for you know, a year or

1286
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 1: how however long when you have, like I said, seven

1287
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: and a half billion people. Um, maybe you know, in

1288
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 1: nin ah the population was like one point six one

1289
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 1: point seven billion people, right, so now we've exploded. So

1290
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:01,080
Speaker 1: what I what I wonder when I when I think

1291
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 1: about the choices that folks like you, thoughtful hunters have

1292
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: made and and think about self sufficiency, I also think

1293
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: about the problems of scale, like like, can you have

1294
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: the lifestyle that and each of us, like myself included, right,

1295
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,640
Speaker 1: Like I'm a vegan, I'm living in a cosmic, cosmopolitan,

1296
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 1: metropolitan area. You're a hunter and you you you live

1297
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 1: in you know, Montana, So it's it's a pretty you know,

1298
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 1: it's not it's not a non affluent area. But for

1299
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: someone who who takes the position that you take, can

1300
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 1: seven and a half billion people live like you can

1301
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:42,320
Speaker 1: center and a half billion people go out and get

1302
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 1: all their hunting gear and do the entire thing, and

1303
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 1: the hundreds of you know how much thousands of dollars

1304
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,520
Speaker 1: to get the equipment and do all that and have freezers,

1305
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 1: and I mean so so so that can't happen, right,

1306
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 1: So you can't. Yeah, yeah, Well, I would just say

1307
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:00,320
Speaker 1: that I have flatly part of the reason why I

1308
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: want to talk on this show and just publicly about

1309
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 1: regenerative agriculture and all the other things that kind of

1310
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: lead to self sufficiency is because that's not the case.

1311
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 1: At the same time, we've talked about lab grown meats

1312
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 1: and we've talked about large scale animal agriculture on the

1313
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 1: show because I know that I'm not It's a personal

1314
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: prescription on a relatively tiny scale. I mean, it's the

1315
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,719
Speaker 1: number of huts like a nine to eleven million hunters

1316
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 1: in the US. I mean that's such a tiny number, um,

1317
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 1: And so I just just for a point of the conversation,

1318
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: I kind of see it at this moment as a

1319
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 1: personal prescription that makes my life better. It is not

1320
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:40,480
Speaker 1: a prescription for for the health and well being our society.

1321
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: You know, on a scale, it just isn't can't be um,

1322
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,679
Speaker 1: it's it would lead to ruin of our wildlife resources

1323
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 1: and our land resources. So um, it sits in a

1324
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:52,879
Speaker 1: weird vacuum. I would say, well, I think it's important,

1325
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:56,719
Speaker 1: and I appreciate you acknowledging that. Of course you would,

1326
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: because you're you know, you're very thoughtful and you thought

1327
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: about all this stuff. I do hear people. Um. Again

1328
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 1: this is anecdotal, but just reading social media and reading

1329
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: the internet, people who are what you might call local

1330
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 1: wars and UM, sometimes I think, wow, these people haven't

1331
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:18,880
Speaker 1: thought through Uh. You know, seven and a half billion

1332
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 1: people can't survive on heritage pork from northern California, right,

1333
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 1: So I love it. I love the point. So this

1334
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:28,719
Speaker 1: whole thing about this is like good for the planet.

1335
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good for the planet for a small

1336
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:36,680
Speaker 1: percentage of humans who have that that privilege. So so

1337
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 1: I when you when you acknowledge the way that you

1338
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 1: just did right to say like, hey, this is a

1339
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 1: this is this is not scalable. I don't think that

1340
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 1: needs to be um. Those kinds of um, those kinds

1341
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 1: of realities need to I think sinking and and when

1342
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 1: I and when I talk about people who are who

1343
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 1: are local wars and talking about heritage pork and stuff,

1344
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: I'd be willing to bet I'm just guessing, Ben, I'd

1345
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: be willing to bet that a lot of people like

1346
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 1: that probably are not into hunting and they're not into

1347
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: like guns and like that. You probably find those people

1348
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: more on the hippie side. And yet and they're more

1349
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 1: planet you know, at least publicly quote planet friendly, maybe

1350
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: their priest whatever. But that's what's interesting is like they're

1351
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: they're sort of I don't know if it's a will

1352
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 1: for willful ignorance of Wait a second, the kind of

1353
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 1: lifestyle that you're that you're promoting, it's not scalable. So

1354
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 1: so at least let's least let's do what you just

1355
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 1: did bed and and say like, yeah, this is a

1356
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 1: preference for my own personal life, rather than act like

1357
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 1: this is a panacea and everyone. If everyone did this,

1358
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: the planet would be okay. It's just it's impossible. So

1359
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, as we talked about this, you know, I

1360
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 1: think my major point to you and I'd love to

1361
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 1: hear what you think about this idea, um, Robert is

1362
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 1: is shrinking just kind of shrinking the commentary. I feel

1363
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,640
Speaker 1: like at least we can get our arms around that

1364
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. And that's kind of what I've moved

1365
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:05,640
Speaker 1: to after being so confounded by, you know, how we

1366
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 1: feed all these people, UM, A smaller, a smaller, more

1367
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: prescriptive approach, that's like, hey, where do you live, what

1368
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: do you do, what do you value? Let's try to

1369
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:20,479
Speaker 1: make you more self sufficient, improve your diet, improve your

1370
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 1: health based on the environment in which you've chosen to live,

1371
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: which you find yourself in. I think it's just I

1372
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 1: would just acknowledge that this is such, you know, the

1373
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: large scale conversation is such a hard thing to maneuver. UM.

1374
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: I've tried to kind of shrink it down just a

1375
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 1: little bit on my end, and I think that's I mean,

1376
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: that's I think that's an important component. Excuse me, but

1377
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,879
Speaker 1: I do think so that's an important component for anyone

1378
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 1: on the food consumption spectrum and lifestyle spectrum. UM Hunter

1379
01:18:53,600 --> 01:19:00,439
Speaker 1: to vegan, I am a big egg producer. UM, that's

1380
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 1: certainly a part of it for me. But I do

1381
01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 1: think for me, and for probably a lot of ethical vegans.

1382
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: Part of the issue is, as I mentioned last time

1383
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 1: we talked, this is a ethical or political um uh issue.

1384
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:21,000
Speaker 1: And so as much as I do want to I

1385
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 1: want to do these things simultaneously. I would like to

1386
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 1: promote and and come and come to understand with others

1387
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 1: the best ways that we can individually carve out a

1388
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 1: little um lifestyle or way of being that decreases, you know,

1389
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:45,600
Speaker 1: the impact on the planet and and and on animal suffering. Meanwhile,

1390
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, if we have seventy two hundred

1391
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: billion Sindi and beings in this massive systemic um industry

1392
01:19:57,880 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: that are that are that are being that are so

1393
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 1: ferring and being killed, that that requires more than me

1394
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: siloing myself into my little vegan world right, that that

1395
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:14,960
Speaker 1: requires a political action or some kind of social justice action.

1396
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 1: So I do want to say I don't want to,

1397
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:22,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to to find fully the solution in

1398
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,839
Speaker 1: we all just need to take care of ourselves. Meanwhile,

1399
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 1: there's this system that is that has really gone off

1400
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 1: the rails. It's it's it's just it's basically an unsustainable

1401
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 1: system of producing animal meats. So I want to want

1402
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 1: to say, is while we're doing this figuring out our

1403
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:45,679
Speaker 1: own personal and our own little ways of doing things

1404
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 1: here in our lives. I need to remain engaged with

1405
01:20:49,120 --> 01:20:53,519
Speaker 1: the larger political aspects of animal rights and veganism that

1406
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:59,520
Speaker 1: involve ending the suffering of tens of billions of animals,

1407
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,679
Speaker 1: mostly just so that people can satisfy their palettes or

1408
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 1: or you know, get these fulfill these preferences. Yeah. No,

1409
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:10,200
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of that I agree with. I

1410
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 1: think the way the hunt a lot of hunting communities

1411
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 1: are set up UM really exactly does that as well.

1412
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,080
Speaker 1: I mean it it says, you know, conservation is kind

1413
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 1: of the tenant in which we live by, and that

1414
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 1: that's health of ecosystems, that's health of wild populations, that's

1415
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:29,839
Speaker 1: you know, we we live with like a larger ethos

1416
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: in mind. UM. And one thing I would say, one

1417
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: thing in in discussing kind of our food production system,

1418
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:41,800
Speaker 1: the system of um animal agriculture and and kind of

1419
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 1: how we change that, I've I've discussed with several folks.

1420
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 1: There's one company called Force and Nature Meat. They sell

1421
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: captive servant meat, which I don't agree with, but they

1422
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:54,800
Speaker 1: also look at you know, sourcing uh animal protein in

1423
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: a way that uses a virginitive agriculture and it's friendly

1424
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 1: to the land, and so as I look to those

1425
01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 1: types of companies as possible solutions here UM across the board,

1426
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, kind of divorcing the dow, we kill animals

1427
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:13,800
Speaker 1: or not for a moment, UM. As I look to that,

1428
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:16,800
Speaker 1: the answer they often give me people in that situation

1429
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:22,479
Speaker 1: is the consumer. The consumer's lifestyle overall dictates what these

1430
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 1: industries do. So if people stop buying um, you know,

1431
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 1: factory farm chicken. If if the demand drives up, then

1432
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:34,320
Speaker 1: everything else drives up with it. So I I do

1433
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:37,720
Speaker 1: think there is some connective tissue. While I understand kind

1434
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 1: of the proclivity to be more of an activist for

1435
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 1: the message UM, I certainly m in a lot of

1436
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,679
Speaker 1: ways for hunting UM, there is this connective tissue between

1437
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:50,680
Speaker 1: what you do and the lifestyle you promote in your

1438
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 1: own community, and then how that's married with you know,

1439
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 1: changing how these food systems work that we all you

1440
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 1: know that you and I agree are not palatable for

1441
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 1: for many reasons. And then when you there's something you

1442
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:08,720
Speaker 1: said that triggered a thought in my memories, you know,

1443
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:12,679
Speaker 1: from the many years I taught at cal State Chico

1444
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 1: up in northern California, which Chico is in Butte County,

1445
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:19,040
Speaker 1: which is pretty much an AGG community. Right, there's a

1446
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 1: lot of ranchers my students in my so I I

1447
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:26,360
Speaker 1: started a class of an animal rights class in the

1448
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:28,639
Speaker 1: philosophy department when I got to Chico, because there wasn't

1449
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 1: an animal rights class, And ironically, the class was chosen

1450
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:37,160
Speaker 1: to be a part of a certain what they call

1451
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: these pathways, like different themes that students can take, and

1452
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,720
Speaker 1: one of the pathways is the food pathway. And so

1453
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:48,200
Speaker 1: I envisioned my class as being like a social justice

1454
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:52,800
Speaker 1: or philosophy of justice class, and it got put into

1455
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 1: the food pathway. And one of the upshots of that

1456
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 1: is that in my classes, say of forty five students,

1457
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 1: I'd have twenty to thirty students who were no AGG

1458
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 1: students who were, um, you know, they were ranchers, their

1459
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 1: fifth generation ranchers, right, and and so as you might

1460
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:14,439
Speaker 1: imagine a lot of interesting conversations ensued in that in

1461
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 1: that class. But this is a long, long about way

1462
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:23,839
Speaker 1: of saying that oftentimes when these issues of consumer demand

1463
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 1: would come up, and in the industry, you know, big

1464
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:29,640
Speaker 1: AGG because a lot of my students, they when they graduated,

1465
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:32,599
Speaker 1: they went right into big AGG. Right. And so what

1466
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 1: they would say to me as well, look, we're we're

1467
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 1: we're merely meeting consumer demand. Right that if if if

1468
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,880
Speaker 1: consumers didn't demand this, if there wasn't a market demand

1469
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 1: for it, we would be out of business. And and

1470
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 1: I think that that's a wonderful thing for us student

1471
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:52,000
Speaker 1: to say, who may be in an AGG program and

1472
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 1: that you know, but I think you and I hopefully

1473
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 1: you would agree that it's a little bit naive. Right.

1474
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:01,160
Speaker 1: It's a little more complicated than simply that consumers demand

1475
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 1: something and it's produced. Right. We we both know that

1476
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: demand can be generated through marketing and advertising and lifestyle

1477
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:13,519
Speaker 1: and so it's not a simple equation that And I'm

1478
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:15,639
Speaker 1: not saying you or you know you're saying this. I'm

1479
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:21,760
Speaker 1: just saying it's it's a it's accomplished, complex dynamic that says, um,

1480
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:24,679
Speaker 1: the meat industry, you know, milk does a body good

1481
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 1: gotten milk? I mean all these you know, pork, the

1482
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,679
Speaker 1: other white meat, you know, beef, it's what's for dinner.

1483
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 1: All the West wasn't one on salad, all these the

1484
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:37,640
Speaker 1: beef counts all these agg lobbies. They and I'm not

1485
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,639
Speaker 1: I'm not saying people are you know sheep, but I'm

1486
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:45,640
Speaker 1: saying there's a certain aspect of generating demand through advertising

1487
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:48,559
Speaker 1: and through marketing that is effective. Right, So so that

1488
01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 1: has to be acknowledged to that that when we look

1489
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 1: going back to our original point of thinking, like what

1490
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:57,040
Speaker 1: can I do personally in my own life to alter

1491
01:25:57,160 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 1: the way that I behave and maybe act as as

1492
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:03,200
Speaker 1: an exemplar for a way of life that I think

1493
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:07,320
Speaker 1: is more sustainable, and then looking at the bigger sort

1494
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,640
Speaker 1: of political aspects and saying, yeah, but there's billions and

1495
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 1: billions of animals in this system that are being that

1496
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 1: are suffering and dying unnecessarily. Um, it's important. I'm I

1497
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:23,759
Speaker 1: don't I don't want to fully like villainize the the

1498
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:28,760
Speaker 1: the AGG industry, but the AGG industry is partially responsible for,

1499
01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:34,040
Speaker 1: um that the meat culture. It's not merely that, oh,

1500
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 1: people want to eat meat. And so when you're talking

1501
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:40,719
Speaker 1: about these companies that say, you know, when people's demand

1502
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,879
Speaker 1: for meat decreases, one of the ways it will decrease

1503
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:48,519
Speaker 1: is if activists who are who are shedding a light

1504
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 1: and not just vegans just people who are from different

1505
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 1: walks of life, who are shedding a light on the

1506
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 1: atrocity of what the agg industry, like you said, it's

1507
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 1: doing to the water tables, it's doing to the environment.

1508
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,080
Speaker 1: Um So that that's what I'm getting at, is the

1509
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 1: activism for me has to be built into the lifestyle choice.

1510
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,599
Speaker 1: And that's where I see veganism, not so much as

1511
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,400
Speaker 1: a lifestyle or as an identity, but as a stance,

1512
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 1: like as a political stance to say, I want to

1513
01:27:19,080 --> 01:27:21,679
Speaker 1: decrease suffering in the world when I leave the when

1514
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 1: my day comes and I leave the planet. If there's

1515
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:28,839
Speaker 1: something I could have done, even incrementally to open people's

1516
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: eyes and say this is an unstainable system, and along

1517
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:37,520
Speaker 1: the way, billions of animals are being being are suffering

1518
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:41,439
Speaker 1: and being killed unnecessarily, then I feel like, Okay, well, maybe,

1519
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:43,479
Speaker 1: you know, maybe that's what we can that's the best

1520
01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,440
Speaker 1: we can do. Not all of us can be Gandhi

1521
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 1: or you know, so we we have to do what

1522
01:27:48,080 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 1: we can in our lives, but we can ignore the system,

1523
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 1: and and and and and and I don't even want

1524
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 1: to open this door, Ben, but I'll just use a word.

1525
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 1: Oh no, don't don't trigger me corporate capitalism. We we've

1526
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:06,400
Speaker 1: never even talked about corporate capitalism, and that's a whole

1527
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:08,880
Speaker 1: other discussion. But you know, we do live in a

1528
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 1: system where I mean going back to our original discussion

1529
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,880
Speaker 1: about the rickety system and not being prepared and our

1530
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 1: our our government not being prepared. Um. A lot of this,

1531
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 1: or at least a large part of it, has to

1532
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:27,760
Speaker 1: do with things like profit. Right. So so when when

1533
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 1: someone in the age industry looks at the bottom line

1534
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: and says, I need every quarter to produce profit, um,

1535
01:28:34,080 --> 01:28:37,720
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that person is thinking twenty years down

1536
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 1: the road, fifty years down the road, how are we

1537
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: going to have a planet to sustainable when you're always

1538
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:47,880
Speaker 1: pushed to think about quarterly profits. That's not a you know,

1539
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 1: I think you would agree that's not a way to

1540
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:53,639
Speaker 1: produce a sustainable planet. But just looking at the bottom line, right,

1541
01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 1: you know, the nuances of this are are so many

1542
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,360
Speaker 1: and so orton. Um. I try to think of a

1543
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: way how I'd like to kind of articulate what I'm

1544
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 1: what I want to get a cross here, because it's

1545
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: it's got a lot of these things have so many

1546
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:11,439
Speaker 1: layers which is why I appreciate, you know, kind of

1547
01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:13,439
Speaker 1: working through this stuff with you, because you start on

1548
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 1: one thing and then it just kind of unleashes all

1549
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 1: these other layers of logic. I I guess in terms

1550
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 1: of the systems, I find that I haven't. I have

1551
01:29:24,160 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: a particular immunity to these systems, um. And that immunity

1552
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:33,519
Speaker 1: comes from this idea of self sufficiency. Right, so in

1553
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:39,440
Speaker 1: terms of the marketing of meat or milk or or whatever, um,

1554
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:44,080
Speaker 1: if I'm able to build my own structure of health

1555
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 1: and well being and fitness of both mental and physical

1556
01:29:47,479 --> 01:29:50,639
Speaker 1: fitness and kind of like a life of my own

1557
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:54,080
Speaker 1: that's sufficient, and I know kind of the cause and

1558
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:57,479
Speaker 1: effect on a very local level, I'm I'm then find

1559
01:29:57,479 --> 01:29:59,720
Speaker 1: my and I do this personally, I find myself a

1560
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:03,320
Speaker 1: little bit immune to the bullshit, uh in the mainstream

1561
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:06,200
Speaker 1: media kind of I can tell when a lobbyist group

1562
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 1: puts something together because normally it's just a piece of

1563
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 1: pandering media. And so yeah, I think maybe that the

1564
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:19,400
Speaker 1: worldview that it's crystallizing for me and hearing you talk

1565
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 1: is is there's an idea for me that you know,

1566
01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: while we have this this time to examine these larger issues,

1567
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,960
Speaker 1: and a bit of of that involves our own privilege

1568
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:32,599
Speaker 1: as being affluent and in a certain part of our society.

1569
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 1: If you're able to build your life in such a

1570
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 1: way and whatever elements you bring in is up for

1571
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 1: for your own you know, decisions and structure is to say, hey,

1572
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 1: I'm immune to the marketing. I'm because I know where

1573
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:51,200
Speaker 1: my meat comes from, so I don't care what you

1574
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 1: tell me. Or I'm immune to having to go to

1575
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 1: the store and buy as because I got a chicken

1576
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:57,639
Speaker 1: out back that lays them and I know when they're

1577
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 1: good and when they're not good. UM that that kind

1578
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:03,439
Speaker 1: of has a waterfall effect and it has in my

1579
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: life to kind of go further and further and further

1580
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 1: to to to create those value systems in my my

1581
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: own life. So if if we could, I guess maybe

1582
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:16,599
Speaker 1: where I disagree with you is like activism on a

1583
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,760
Speaker 1: personal level as long as we're promoting that activism by

1584
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:24,240
Speaker 1: saying build your own structures, share those structures with other

1585
01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:27,759
Speaker 1: people you think would would benefit from them. Get yourself

1586
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:30,720
Speaker 1: away from these systems, whether it's food systems, are all

1587
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:35,200
Speaker 1: kind of our cultural structures that we know now that

1588
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 1: UM are weak and flawed and built on like what

1589
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:41,840
Speaker 1: you said, some some of them are building corporate greeds

1590
01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 1: of them are built um two emotionally and they don't

1591
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:49,760
Speaker 1: have enough just just hard facts build into them. UM.

1592
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:52,800
Speaker 1: But you can kind of build up an immunity to

1593
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:54,920
Speaker 1: to that stuff. And I have, and I feel I

1594
01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:57,880
Speaker 1: feel really good about that. UM. So, I don't know

1595
01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 1: where that fits and all that we've covered, but but

1596
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 1: that's I think that's that's where I where I land

1597
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:07,000
Speaker 1: on kind of the activism, and I think it's important

1598
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 1: then too to take that stance and to take that

1599
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 1: um to take that position where you can build immunity,

1600
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:23,439
Speaker 1: and that requires critical thinking. That requires critical thought, That

1601
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:30,160
Speaker 1: requires understanding the systems and the kind of worldview that

1602
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:35,400
Speaker 1: you are are advocating, which which builds this kind of

1603
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 1: immunity I people need, especially in let's just let's keep

1604
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:45,519
Speaker 1: let's keep it to the you know, the the United States.

1605
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 1: You know that that's a difficult, Uh, that's a tall

1606
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:53,639
Speaker 1: order to to to get an entire nation of people

1607
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 1: to start thinking critically about these issues. And it's it's

1608
01:32:57,120 --> 01:32:59,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's deadly important. Our survival depends on it.

1609
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:04,559
Speaker 1: But um and so like one of the my you know,

1610
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:06,639
Speaker 1: I teach it to I teach it to state college

1611
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:10,639
Speaker 1: at California State College, and I teach critical thinking. And

1612
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:17,599
Speaker 1: I tell my students, um that you know, um, this

1613
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 1: might be you know, a general education class and you're

1614
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:23,160
Speaker 1: taking this class critical thinking. What the hell is critical thinking?

1615
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:27,880
Speaker 1: But what I tell them, and all sincerity, is that

1616
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:32,559
Speaker 1: critical thinking is the key in in many ways, it's

1617
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:35,880
Speaker 1: the key to liberating yourself. It's it's a key to

1618
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,120
Speaker 1: liberation to be able to build what you're been what

1619
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:43,320
Speaker 1: you're calling this immunity because and and and and there

1620
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:45,200
Speaker 1: is a certain luxury to it. Right, there's people who

1621
01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:47,519
Speaker 1: are like a lot of people there there's half a

1622
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 1: million people who are homeless in the United States. Well,

1623
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:51,840
Speaker 1: I gotta go up to a homeless guy and say,

1624
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 1: what the hell are you eating? And what you know? Why?

1625
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:56,320
Speaker 1: So so there's there are a lot of people who

1626
01:33:56,360 --> 01:33:59,040
Speaker 1: aren't in the position that you and I are to

1627
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 1: have the luxury or the privilege to like to understand

1628
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 1: and build this kind of critical thought and and and

1629
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 1: uh and and and build this immunity. But that said, right,

1630
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:12,040
Speaker 1: it's a worthwhile goal. It's a worthy goal to say

1631
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:15,080
Speaker 1: the one of the things that's gonna save us, if

1632
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:18,759
Speaker 1: anything's gonna save us, is having this kind of critical

1633
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:21,640
Speaker 1: thought that you're talking about. And you know, when I

1634
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:23,720
Speaker 1: look at and and the thing, I don't know if

1635
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:25,679
Speaker 1: this happens to you, Ben, but you're it's like, I'm

1636
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:30,439
Speaker 1: so immersed in the way that I see advertising or

1637
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:34,360
Speaker 1: the way that I see um, food promotion or lifestyle promotion,

1638
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:37,080
Speaker 1: or clothing from promotion, or a car from or whatever,

1639
01:34:37,479 --> 01:34:41,080
Speaker 1: and and I have this view and I forget. I

1640
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:45,960
Speaker 1: sometimes forget, like this isn't the way most people think, right,

1641
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: And and these ads and these kinds of lifestyle presentations

1642
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: in these television programs, they actually have a lot of

1643
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:57,400
Speaker 1: impact when on on. So it's like a wake up call.

1644
01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm like, wait a second, I'm sitting are teaching

1645
01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:04,639
Speaker 1: critical thinking. I'm thinking critically about food production, about animal suffering,

1646
01:35:04,680 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 1: about capitalism and corporate greed, and and I kind of

1647
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:11,360
Speaker 1: get lost and I have to check myself and go

1648
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:15,680
Speaker 1: away a second. Um, this is not how everyone think,

1649
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 1: This is not how the masses think. And so part

1650
01:35:19,760 --> 01:35:22,960
Speaker 1: of the solution. It's it's funny because we've talked about

1651
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 1: this before the last time It's like there's a certain

1652
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 1: sense in which you and I our world used or

1653
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:33,640
Speaker 1: our life choices, they're in opposition. But I think, and

1654
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 1: we've talked about it before, like if you pan out

1655
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:40,320
Speaker 1: and get a global picture, people like you and I

1656
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 1: actually much we're much more in accordance. Um, we make

1657
01:35:45,240 --> 01:35:48,719
Speaker 1: make different choices, like we've talked about, but talking about

1658
01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:55,440
Speaker 1: critical thinking and immunity to these kinds of pressures, I think, Um,

1659
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:59,160
Speaker 1: I think we need to acknowledge that hunters like you

1660
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:04,040
Speaker 1: and vegan like me actually share a lot. Yeah, I

1661
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:05,880
Speaker 1: I Like I said, I always go back to that

1662
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:07,880
Speaker 1: analogy because I feel like we share so much and

1663
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:11,720
Speaker 1: we've been we've been trained kind of within our communities

1664
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:15,040
Speaker 1: and even without outside of our communities that were not

1665
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:17,880
Speaker 1: the same, that we do have these worldviews that can't

1666
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:22,520
Speaker 1: coincide with each other, and that there is this adversarial relationship,

1667
01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:24,599
Speaker 1: and I just don't believe that. And and to your

1668
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 1: point about kind of like what what is the masses? Um,

1669
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:30,600
Speaker 1: that's one of those things just kind of like the

1670
01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:33,439
Speaker 1: nutrition of on all vegan diet or or all even

1671
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:35,720
Speaker 1: all meat diet or whatever you might say, you you

1672
01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:38,519
Speaker 1: can find a lot of examples. Either way. I've heard

1673
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:40,680
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, guys like Sam Harris and

1674
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:44,719
Speaker 1: Eric Weinstein and a lot of really impactful intellectuals talk

1675
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:48,040
Speaker 1: about this kind of like is there a mainstream are

1676
01:36:48,120 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 1: are we just being fooled in in in that there

1677
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:53,439
Speaker 1: is one? You know, Um, there's a lot of kind

1678
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 1: of the democracy of podcast is a good example of

1679
01:36:56,800 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 1: millions of people listening to something that is outside of

1680
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 1: the structure of and this, this podcast is a good

1681
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:06,720
Speaker 1: example of that, outside of the structure of what mainstream

1682
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 1: quote unquote media is. You know, it's it's it's not

1683
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 1: the Tonight Show, it's not the local news. It's not

1684
01:37:13,320 --> 01:37:15,639
Speaker 1: you and I aren't talking heads on a TV screen

1685
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 1: arguing for thirty second clips. Um. This isn't a presidential

1686
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:23,280
Speaker 1: debate where we just we just hit soundbites and whoever

1687
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 1: wins it has the best sound bite. And it's not

1688
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:27,519
Speaker 1: social media where people are playing an arcade game to

1689
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:32,120
Speaker 1: score points, um, in some strange social experiment. You know,

1690
01:37:32,240 --> 01:37:35,360
Speaker 1: this is this is kind of a divergent from those

1691
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:39,760
Speaker 1: mainstream examples. And and podcasts are huge, Um, you know,

1692
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan's being like the biggest podcast in the world,

1693
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:44,800
Speaker 1: he talks about all kinds of crazy shit. UM, whether

1694
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 1: you agree with some of it or not. It's so

1695
01:37:48,240 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 1: I wonder this is an open wondering of mine. I

1696
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:53,040
Speaker 1: don't I'm not saying the mainstream is, let's give it

1697
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 1: more credit, But I just wonder how we define those

1698
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:58,760
Speaker 1: things and how much credit we should give ourselves, because

1699
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:02,040
Speaker 1: I do think that lots lots of people, UM, are

1700
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:06,120
Speaker 1: in kind of the the unaddressed majority, well the unaddressed

1701
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:09,519
Speaker 1: portion that want to think critically, UM, but just don't

1702
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 1: know where to go because mainstream media has told them

1703
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 1: that they don't want to think critically and they'd much

1704
01:38:14,080 --> 01:38:16,880
Speaker 1: rather just be pandered too. So at least we can

1705
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:21,160
Speaker 1: open up the door and say, like walk through or don't. UM.

1706
01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:23,559
Speaker 1: But this isn't mainstream, It's not going to be structured

1707
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:27,439
Speaker 1: like UM all these other things. Great point, Ben, I

1708
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:31,439
Speaker 1: don't disagree at all. I think it's it's that provides

1709
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:35,400
Speaker 1: like a check on my cynicism to think, wait a second,

1710
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 1: there is a democratization of information that can have a

1711
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:42,840
Speaker 1: positive effect and UM. And that's part of part of

1712
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:44,960
Speaker 1: what I do in my my critical thinking classes is

1713
01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:48,759
Speaker 1: I have forty five students sitting there for fifteen weeks.

1714
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:52,240
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not saying I'm not. I don't.

1715
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:54,960
Speaker 1: My students don't know that I'm a vegan. They don't

1716
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:57,240
Speaker 1: really know much about me. I don't. I don't use

1717
01:38:57,320 --> 01:39:00,599
Speaker 1: that as a platform from my polity of goal views.

1718
01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:03,559
Speaker 1: What I tell my students is when you walk in

1719
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:08,000
Speaker 1: the door in in you know, in in August, and

1720
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 1: you walk out in December, if you have the same

1721
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:16,439
Speaker 1: beliefs you had when you walked in the door, that's

1722
01:39:16,439 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 1: not a failure to me. What's a failure to me

1723
01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 1: is if you haven't examined why you have those beliefs.

1724
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:25,400
Speaker 1: That the purpose of the critical thinking is to examine

1725
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:28,280
Speaker 1: your beliefs and and why you hold them, not to

1726
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:31,040
Speaker 1: change them necessarily. I mean, of course they will change,

1727
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 1: but so I do I I mean, you give me

1728
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:36,440
Speaker 1: hope to say, well, there is this, there is this,

1729
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:41,800
Speaker 1: this this non um mainstream democratization through these kinds of

1730
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:45,599
Speaker 1: media that can spread these ideas and okay, good, thanks man.

1731
01:39:45,640 --> 01:39:49,320
Speaker 1: I feel I feel I feel like it's like virtual hug.

1732
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 1: I know I couldn't hug you in real life, but

1733
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 1: virtual hug. But I'm like, we're okay, Uh, yeah, I do.

1734
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 1: I do think that. I think it's it's strange that, um,

1735
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, this conversation comes to the points, but it's true,

1736
01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:04,280
Speaker 1: it really does. It really does to note that we

1737
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:07,840
Speaker 1: can we can you and I in this conversation and

1738
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: we as is as the the the plural, like the

1739
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 1: plurality of everyone that cares about what they're eating that

1740
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:18,080
Speaker 1: doesn't fall into these trapped sidal traps, you know, like

1741
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:22,720
Speaker 1: we can be together on this um even if even

1742
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:24,880
Speaker 1: if we're being told we we're not, you know, we

1743
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:28,320
Speaker 1: can't UM. And there's hope in that. And there's like

1744
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:32,520
Speaker 1: a lot of us thrive on this, you know, adversarial conversation.

1745
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:35,640
Speaker 1: I I do not. I couldn't even sometimes even if

1746
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:37,519
Speaker 1: I disagree with something you might say or someone else,

1747
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 1: I just moved past that because I want to get

1748
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 1: to a conversation where we can kind of examine not

1749
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 1: the not the positive motions, but these the kind of

1750
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:51,680
Speaker 1: more constructive things that that that'll move us in one direction. UM.

1751
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 1: So that's that's just always how I approach it. But

1752
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:57,840
Speaker 1: I do want to before we we go or um.

1753
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:01,719
Speaker 1: And this I've been really drawn to over the last

1754
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:05,799
Speaker 1: say three or four months reading about um and thinking

1755
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:09,920
Speaker 1: about death and suffering. And that's it's really dark to

1756
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:13,200
Speaker 1: say now I say it out loud, So that's real dark.

1757
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 1: You spend your free time doing that, do you? UM?

1758
01:41:15,880 --> 01:41:19,880
Speaker 1: But I do in some way, UM, I believe, and

1759
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 1: we talked about this last time. I believe that my

1760
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:26,360
Speaker 1: proximity to the death helps me to understand and appreciate

1761
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:30,639
Speaker 1: what death is. And I wouldn't I guess I'll say

1762
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,880
Speaker 1: it this way. I wouldn't want to remove myself from

1763
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:38,320
Speaker 1: the death knowing that it's being caused by my consumption

1764
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:42,360
Speaker 1: at some level. No matter what, UM, I want to

1765
01:41:42,439 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 1: find a way to understand it. Like, for for example,

1766
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:47,720
Speaker 1: if I would remove kind of the hunting piece for

1767
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:50,440
Speaker 1: a moment. I want to plan a garden in my backyard.

1768
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:53,839
Speaker 1: We have an infestation of voles back in my backyard

1769
01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:58,479
Speaker 1: and that these things are are destructive UM, And so

1770
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:00,320
Speaker 1: my I have a choice now, like do I let

1771
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 1: them have a piece of my garden or do I

1772
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:06,559
Speaker 1: kill them? Because I'm not gonna you know, I'm not

1773
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 1: going to transplant them or translocate them somewhere else. So

1774
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:12,360
Speaker 1: you kind of I kind of have this this real

1775
01:42:12,479 --> 01:42:16,759
Speaker 1: life like life and death thing to work out. Most people,

1776
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:21,040
Speaker 1: people I I that I know, would just kill of oles.

1777
01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:24,240
Speaker 1: They don't like They're not a beautiful animal, they don't

1778
01:42:24,600 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 1: have much value their rodents. They live underground. We never

1779
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 1: see them dead, see you without But I I thought

1780
01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:34,120
Speaker 1: about it, and and still I'm thinking about I haven't

1781
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: killed a single one of them. Um. And I think

1782
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:42,960
Speaker 1: my my train of thought around that is due to

1783
01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 1: my hunting Um, because I see death, I know death.

1784
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:51,400
Speaker 1: I appreciate death in a way that's very constructive and

1785
01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:55,960
Speaker 1: also very dark. And and I have what some philosophers

1786
01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 1: call kind of like tragic wisdom, the wisdom of the

1787
01:42:58,479 --> 01:43:02,519
Speaker 1: moral ambiguity of death and life and how there just

1788
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 1: is no certainty. So I've been thinking a lot about that.

1789
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:09,960
Speaker 1: I'm interested just to kind of here because animal writes

1790
01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:14,240
Speaker 1: it so much about reducing suffering. Here your thoughts on

1791
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 1: on both my backyard conundrum and how you approach death. Yeah,

1792
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:23,000
Speaker 1: And I think, Um, and Ben, my hat's off to

1793
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:26,800
Speaker 1: you that you that you haven't your your knee jerk

1794
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: reaction wasn't to just decimate the vole population in your backyard.

1795
01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:33,120
Speaker 1: I think, like you said, most people would just figure

1796
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:35,600
Speaker 1: that's the solution, right, get it rid of them. Um,

1797
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 1: I do want to disagree. I don't think les. I

1798
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:39,439
Speaker 1: think falls are actually kind of cute, but that's just

1799
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 1: my own aesthetic. Um. But uh, I think when it

1800
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:48,679
Speaker 1: comes to there's separate issues of death and suffering, right,

1801
01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 1: so to to like disentangle those those concepts, um. Uh,

1802
01:43:56,960 --> 01:44:02,680
Speaker 1: the the the experience of these sentient beings like a

1803
01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 1: vole or like a pig or something, or like a deer,

1804
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:11,040
Speaker 1: So while they're alive, their lives can be there there

1805
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:17,280
Speaker 1: there can be a point of suffering reached where um,

1806
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:19,720
Speaker 1: just the life just isn't worth living. Right, if you've

1807
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 1: ever euthanized a beloved companion animal or something, right, it's

1808
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 1: like it's just not the suffering is too great. And

1809
01:44:28,160 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 1: so I think there's the question of the suffering and

1810
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:33,160
Speaker 1: then there's the question of the death and and so

1811
01:44:34,040 --> 01:44:39,679
Speaker 1: um that the issue for me with regard to veganism

1812
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:44,880
Speaker 1: and animal rights is this notion of unnecessary suffering. And

1813
01:44:45,479 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 1: the reason I talked about unnecessary or mentioned unnecessary suffering

1814
01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:52,559
Speaker 1: is because some suffering is necessary, right, like if you

1815
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 1: if you have you know you have kids, if you

1816
01:44:55,720 --> 01:44:58,560
Speaker 1: if you get then you know, you take them with

1817
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,160
Speaker 1: the doctor and they have to get an injection or

1818
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:04,280
Speaker 1: some vaccine or whatever, and and you know you think, well,

1819
01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:07,639
Speaker 1: there's gonna be transient suffering for a moment, but then

1820
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:09,720
Speaker 1: it's gonna have a greater good. So that would be

1821
01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:12,519
Speaker 1: an example, of course, of like a necessary suffering to

1822
01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:15,839
Speaker 1: to achieve a greater good. The question of unnecessary suffering

1823
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:19,240
Speaker 1: is like it doesn't really serve a purpose that warrants

1824
01:45:19,280 --> 01:45:22,960
Speaker 1: the suffering that's that's occurring. Like, for example, I don't

1825
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:29,479
Speaker 1: think that my desire for a bacon donut warrants the

1826
01:45:29,520 --> 01:45:32,360
Speaker 1: suffering of a pig and a factory farm. Right, So

1827
01:45:32,360 --> 01:45:36,640
Speaker 1: so the suffering aspect of the sentient being for me

1828
01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 1: is something that I want to seek to reduce because, um,

1829
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:45,559
Speaker 1: I I think I think it's uncontroversial, right, It's like,

1830
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:49,000
Speaker 1: unnecessary unnecessary suffering is a bad thing, and as a

1831
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 1: caring human being, as a person who cares about other beings,

1832
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:57,320
Speaker 1: I want to reduce that. So to your vole question,

1833
01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:00,280
Speaker 1: I've had issues When I lived in a house a

1834
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:03,200
Speaker 1: few years ago, I had rats in my attic and

1835
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so I don't want rats in

1836
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:08,400
Speaker 1: the attic. I don't know what I mean. I don't

1837
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:11,120
Speaker 1: have anything against rats personally, I know that they're sort

1838
01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:14,559
Speaker 1: of they're they're vermin. They're seen as vermin in a

1839
01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 1: vermin it's a relative term, right, like in some parts

1840
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 1: of of Africa, chimpanzees were seen as vermin, right whereas

1841
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:25,120
Speaker 1: we would say, oh, chimpanzees are beautiful being So my

1842
01:46:25,200 --> 01:46:26,559
Speaker 1: point is, I was like, Okay, what am I gonna

1843
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:27,640
Speaker 1: do with these rats? You know, I don't know if

1844
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:31,200
Speaker 1: they have disease, And so I did some investigation and

1845
01:46:32,280 --> 01:46:34,920
Speaker 1: I could have just thrown the you know, the the

1846
01:46:34,920 --> 01:46:38,000
Speaker 1: glue trap up there. But instead I I found these

1847
01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:41,160
Speaker 1: little cages and I read all about it, and I

1848
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:46,360
Speaker 1: stuck their cage traps up there, and then I, uh

1849
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:49,799
Speaker 1: quickly caught the rats in the trap and I drove

1850
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:52,479
Speaker 1: them out to some mountain region that was it was

1851
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:54,720
Speaker 1: like a half hour from my now. Now. I did

1852
01:46:54,760 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 1: all this not thinking that, um now the rats are free.

1853
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:03,160
Speaker 1: Like as far as I know, I could have opened

1854
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:06,160
Speaker 1: the cage and a and a you know, a coyote

1855
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:08,640
Speaker 1: could have eaten the rat like a minute later. So

1856
01:47:08,680 --> 01:47:11,960
Speaker 1: I wasn't like I didn't have this this idea that

1857
01:47:12,040 --> 01:47:15,360
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm liberating the rat to be free and happy.

1858
01:47:15,520 --> 01:47:18,160
Speaker 1: But I just didn't want to kill them. And I thought,

1859
01:47:18,200 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give the rat a running chance. And I

1860
01:47:20,280 --> 01:47:22,320
Speaker 1: called three rats actually in my attic and I let

1861
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:24,000
Speaker 1: them go up in the mountains and that was it.

1862
01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:27,880
Speaker 1: So um so I felt like as a as an individual,

1863
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 1: I didn't want to contribute to that particular case of suffering.

1864
01:47:32,280 --> 01:47:35,559
Speaker 1: But now we've talked about this before, it's like, I

1865
01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:38,639
Speaker 1: have to have my eyes open, and we are all

1866
01:47:38,680 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 1: caught in this cycle and this system of suffering and

1867
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:47,040
Speaker 1: the system of killing and the system of death and

1868
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 1: and so as a vegan, I want to say on

1869
01:47:49,120 --> 01:47:53,560
Speaker 1: your podcast, as a hunter's podcast, yeah, yeah, it's important

1870
01:47:54,560 --> 01:48:00,439
Speaker 1: to recognize that all of my choices, yeah, are are

1871
01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,400
Speaker 1: attached in some way to some suffering and some death.

1872
01:48:03,920 --> 01:48:06,920
Speaker 1: Um uh, you know, whether or not it's choosing to

1873
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:11,440
Speaker 1: eat vegetables that caused the deaths of insects and they're harvested,

1874
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:16,360
Speaker 1: or small field animals or in some way. So I

1875
01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:21,480
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the fact that you you feel compelled

1876
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:28,320
Speaker 1: to address up close and personal the issue of death,

1877
01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:32,479
Speaker 1: because my fear is that most people but I'm going

1878
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 1: to focus just on vegans that vegans might vegans might

1879
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:43,479
Speaker 1: um remove themselves or think that they're removing themselves in

1880
01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:45,000
Speaker 1: the same way that the person who goes to the

1881
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:47,760
Speaker 1: supermarket and buys the plastic covered piece of steak and

1882
01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:51,639
Speaker 1: that's removed and it's it's sort of sanitized. There's there

1883
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:53,920
Speaker 1: might be a tendency for vegans to think, well, now

1884
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:55,360
Speaker 1: I'm you know, like I said, I'm a little bit

1885
01:48:55,400 --> 01:49:00,000
Speaker 1: more pure. But in fact, there's death all the way

1886
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:02,280
Speaker 1: to you know, when you when you when you take

1887
01:49:02,320 --> 01:49:05,720
Speaker 1: the trail far enough, you're going to find some kind

1888
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:08,439
Speaker 1: of death. So I really respect the fact that you

1889
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:13,160
Speaker 1: and people who think like you see death. I see

1890
01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:15,920
Speaker 1: coming to grips with death and the death of the

1891
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 1: animal for your sustenance as an important component in who

1892
01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:23,080
Speaker 1: you are as you know, your character as a person.

1893
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 1: That's that's really important. So I I think I don't

1894
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:30,800
Speaker 1: ignore the death aspect um, and I do think it's

1895
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:35,000
Speaker 1: important to think about our consumption um with regard to

1896
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:37,920
Speaker 1: the you know, the death death that it causes. And

1897
01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:40,800
Speaker 1: as a vegan, I want to say I cause death too.

1898
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:45,000
Speaker 1: In my purchase. I drive a car when I get

1899
01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:47,400
Speaker 1: home from a long trip and there's hundreds of insects

1900
01:49:47,439 --> 01:49:49,519
Speaker 1: on the front of mine. I mean, what am I doing?

1901
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:52,280
Speaker 1: Is a vegan? Should I? I mean, how far do

1902
01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:57,400
Speaker 1: I take this? Right? And so I think, um, veganism.

1903
01:49:57,439 --> 01:49:59,640
Speaker 1: And if you look at the original notion of veganism

1904
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:03,400
Speaker 1: as as as when it was coined back in the forties,

1905
01:50:04,040 --> 01:50:07,000
Speaker 1: the the idea of veganism is to, to the best

1906
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:11,200
Speaker 1: of our abilities within reason, to reduce suffering and reduce death.

1907
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:16,080
Speaker 1: And so I think it's important for vegans to not delute.

1908
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:19,880
Speaker 1: We shouldn't delude ourselves and and have more experiences like

1909
01:50:20,120 --> 01:50:25,200
Speaker 1: you're you're doing with your own life in confronting death.

1910
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:28,759
Speaker 1: Now whether or not I want to go And again

1911
01:50:28,840 --> 01:50:32,400
Speaker 1: we haven't really talked about this um with regard to

1912
01:50:32,800 --> 01:50:39,799
Speaker 1: our our our life's choices. But um, then there's something

1913
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:44,439
Speaker 1: about and let me there's something about like the person

1914
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:46,920
Speaker 1: who goes into the supermarket and buys the stake and

1915
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:49,439
Speaker 1: they can be divorced from the suffering and the death.

1916
01:50:50,000 --> 01:50:53,920
Speaker 1: And there's something really inauthentic about that that someone like

1917
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:57,920
Speaker 1: you who gets an animal in his sight and pulls

1918
01:50:57,960 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 1: the trigger and ends the animals life and and interacts

1919
01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:04,599
Speaker 1: with the body and the viscera and all that. That's

1920
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:11,679
Speaker 1: that's an important that's an important thing. And by that said,

1921
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 1: what I want to say, and and this is a

1922
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:19,160
Speaker 1: topic for another discussion, is how how can I say this?

1923
01:51:19,360 --> 01:51:27,160
Speaker 1: I m my as a as a as a person,

1924
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:32,160
Speaker 1: as a as a striving to be a thoughtful person

1925
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:38,400
Speaker 1: who doesn't want to inflict pain and suffering. Um, I

1926
01:51:38,920 --> 01:51:41,519
Speaker 1: don't know if I could pull the trigger, like I

1927
01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 1: like the act of there's one thing, if I buy

1928
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:51,320
Speaker 1: a piece, if I buy some tofu and that caused

1929
01:51:51,320 --> 01:51:54,280
Speaker 1: the death of a field animal, and and maybe and

1930
01:51:54,400 --> 01:51:57,760
Speaker 1: maybe then like maybe some I've heard some hunters say,

1931
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:00,559
Speaker 1: like people like you, you're just more horror like because

1932
01:52:00,640 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 1: you you're like the Nietzschean superman. Like I face death

1933
01:52:05,360 --> 01:52:07,559
Speaker 1: and I look at in the face and I'm not

1934
01:52:07,920 --> 01:52:11,160
Speaker 1: hiding behind any kind of facade. This is what it

1935
01:52:11,200 --> 01:52:14,200
Speaker 1: takes to survives, to kill. And and what I want

1936
01:52:14,200 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 1: to say is there's a certain sense in which I

1937
01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:19,040
Speaker 1: say my hats off to you because you have bridge

1938
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:25,040
Speaker 1: that existential moment of an embraced killing. However, I want

1939
01:52:25,080 --> 01:52:27,600
Speaker 1: to say, I don't know if I want to be

1940
01:52:27,640 --> 01:52:29,800
Speaker 1: that kind of person. Not that I don't want to.

1941
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to be inauthentic, but I don't know

1942
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:34,080
Speaker 1: if I can do what you do. I don't know

1943
01:52:34,160 --> 01:52:39,240
Speaker 1: as as a vegan, as someone who values has my value,

1944
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 1: you know, possess the values I do. Man, there's something

1945
01:52:42,479 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 1: about pulling the trigger. And it's not to say like

1946
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:48,919
Speaker 1: I'm weak, because, as we talked about in the last podcast,

1947
01:52:48,960 --> 01:52:51,040
Speaker 1: I actually as a as a teenager, I did. I

1948
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:54,400
Speaker 1: have killed animals with it with a gun. So it's

1949
01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:58,240
Speaker 1: not about weakness or it's not about authenticity for me,

1950
01:52:58,320 --> 01:53:01,639
Speaker 1: And it's not about like Machie Mo, It's just about

1951
01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:08,400
Speaker 1: man like like it might be necessary to do it,

1952
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:11,160
Speaker 1: I just don't know if I can do it, just

1953
01:53:11,200 --> 01:53:13,000
Speaker 1: like there are some things that might be necessary to

1954
01:53:13,120 --> 01:53:15,840
Speaker 1: like some people are like, look, I had to euthanize

1955
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:18,479
Speaker 1: this human being because of this, you know it was

1956
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:20,880
Speaker 1: it was a choice. It was like a Sophie's choice,

1957
01:53:20,920 --> 01:53:23,160
Speaker 1: and I had to choose. And I guess I want

1958
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:26,160
Speaker 1: to say, is man, I don't know if I if

1959
01:53:26,200 --> 01:53:29,799
Speaker 1: I want to do that, So I guess what I'm

1960
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:33,920
Speaker 1: what I'm doing is I'm both praising your decision, but

1961
01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm also calling into question. Um, what it's like, I'm

1962
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:42,679
Speaker 1: not I'm not passing it. I don't want to pass

1963
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:45,840
Speaker 1: a judgment. What I want to say is, Um, that's

1964
01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:49,280
Speaker 1: a certain decision to be a kind of person that

1965
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:55,800
Speaker 1: I just feel so like atavistically un Um, I feel

1966
01:53:55,840 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable with that. So I don't know what I mean.

1967
01:53:59,040 --> 01:54:03,519
Speaker 1: You've thought a lot about this man. It's so like

1968
01:54:03,560 --> 01:54:05,080
Speaker 1: I said, I have to like take a step back

1969
01:54:05,120 --> 01:54:07,160
Speaker 1: and think how I want to structure what I'm about

1970
01:54:07,200 --> 01:54:09,280
Speaker 1: to say, because it does have so many layers and

1971
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:13,840
Speaker 1: impacts in such a different ways. Um. I guess I'll

1972
01:54:13,840 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 1: start by saying that act of killing and I've I've

1973
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:21,840
Speaker 1: said and Michael Poland wrote this in his book An

1974
01:54:21,920 --> 01:54:26,200
Speaker 1: Omnimbers Dilemma, like hunting looks so different from an outside

1975
01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:29,640
Speaker 1: perspective than it does from an inside perspective. Um, and

1976
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 1: for good reason. I mean, just like you said, we're

1977
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:36,400
Speaker 1: we are being raised and and we're coming up in

1978
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:39,120
Speaker 1: a society. Now it's not our fault, it's just when

1979
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:43,040
Speaker 1: we were born that is full of all these proxy activities.

1980
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:45,520
Speaker 1: Where you go, I I buy clothes. I don't make

1981
01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:48,080
Speaker 1: those clothes. I don't know how they get here. I

1982
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 1: don't know what. I know. They look nice and my

1983
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:54,040
Speaker 1: wife thinks I look cute, uh, but I don't know

1984
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:57,120
Speaker 1: much about it. So I'm choosing like, hey, look that's

1985
01:54:57,720 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 1: I know. I know intellectually that it's not a perfect

1986
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:04,800
Speaker 1: process how these clothes came onto onto my back that

1987
01:55:04,800 --> 01:55:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm wearing right now, And I know at some point,

1988
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:10,280
Speaker 1: I'm just this being that doesn't understand that I'm just

1989
01:55:10,400 --> 01:55:13,480
Speaker 1: collecting things inside of a home. And I'm just collecting

1990
01:55:13,480 --> 01:55:15,400
Speaker 1: all these things and I don't understand why I'm doing it.

1991
01:55:15,440 --> 01:55:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm progressing a certain direction. I don't understand why, Um,

1992
01:55:19,080 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 1: I want more things and and and what why that's

1993
01:55:22,480 --> 01:55:24,360
Speaker 1: supposed to make me happy? So there's just a lot

1994
01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:26,520
Speaker 1: of like the the being built into that. So I

1995
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:29,640
Speaker 1: I want to within you know, addressing what you're saying

1996
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 1: is just to say, like I from, I wouldn't continue

1997
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:38,480
Speaker 1: to do it if it didn't provide immense value to

1998
01:55:38,560 --> 01:55:41,760
Speaker 1: my life. And what I would say to not you personally,

1999
01:55:41,760 --> 01:55:45,440
Speaker 1: because your approach is so even handed to other people

2000
01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:48,560
Speaker 1: that don't like what I do. I wouldn't keep doing

2001
01:55:48,600 --> 01:55:50,400
Speaker 1: it if I didn't feel like it had immense value

2002
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:52,840
Speaker 1: to my life. Because I don't like death. I'm not

2003
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:56,640
Speaker 1: a sadist. I I I'm doing it because of the

2004
01:55:56,640 --> 01:56:01,360
Speaker 1: the overwhelming value that it brings. And also that value

2005
01:56:01,400 --> 01:56:04,680
Speaker 1: has baggage that comes along with it, and I address

2006
01:56:04,760 --> 01:56:09,280
Speaker 1: that baggage, and I am choosing to explore pathways to

2007
01:56:09,360 --> 01:56:12,520
Speaker 1: make that not baggage, to really make it an additive

2008
01:56:12,560 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 1: to my life and this activity. So I address That's

2009
01:56:16,360 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: how I would kind of address that part of it,

2010
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, to your to your point of, Hey, I

2011
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:26,320
Speaker 1: just don't think I can do this. Um, I think

2012
01:56:26,440 --> 01:56:30,440
Speaker 1: that's okay. I think that is that is a reflection

2013
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:35,280
Speaker 1: of all of of the conditioning of of where you've lived,

2014
01:56:35,280 --> 01:56:37,680
Speaker 1: how you've grown up, the values that you have seen

2015
01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:42,240
Speaker 1: that we share and don't share. So I think there's

2016
01:56:42,240 --> 01:56:45,560
Speaker 1: certain of us that that can do it. The point

2017
01:56:45,560 --> 01:56:47,920
Speaker 1: I'll makeover and above that is, I've had a lot

2018
01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:51,280
Speaker 1: of people that were in your position that when we

2019
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:53,320
Speaker 1: do this, a lot of meat eater overall, we take

2020
01:56:53,360 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 1: new hunters out, we show them our value systems, we

2021
01:56:55,800 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 1: show them the way we approach it. I have never

2022
01:56:58,400 --> 01:57:00,520
Speaker 1: not once, and I can tell you it's it's only

2023
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:03,160
Speaker 1: my anecdote of like twelve or fifteen people I've taken

2024
01:57:03,160 --> 01:57:06,800
Speaker 1: out as new hunters. I have never once had somebody

2025
01:57:07,040 --> 01:57:09,840
Speaker 1: do the thing they were so scared of that they

2026
01:57:09,880 --> 01:57:12,760
Speaker 1: thought they couldn't do and come out of it with

2027
01:57:12,840 --> 01:57:15,440
Speaker 1: the same level of kind of abhorrence that they went

2028
01:57:15,480 --> 01:57:20,360
Speaker 1: into it with. UM. I'm not saying that proves my point.

2029
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:24,600
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that's my experience. UM. And I'm sure

2030
01:57:24,600 --> 01:57:25,880
Speaker 1: if I just took them out and then like, shoot

2031
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:27,840
Speaker 1: that deer, and they shot that deer and it fell over,

2032
01:57:27,880 --> 01:57:29,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, let's move on to the next one,

2033
01:57:29,960 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 1: they would maintain that abhorrence. So it's a killing is

2034
01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:37,840
Speaker 1: a practice that like requires an insulation of ethics and

2035
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:42,040
Speaker 1: morality and discussion. UM. That does make it different if

2036
01:57:42,080 --> 01:57:44,800
Speaker 1: you approach it with a single minded like I'm gonna

2037
01:57:44,840 --> 01:57:46,840
Speaker 1: kill this thing and eat it, or I'm gonna I'm

2038
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:50,800
Speaker 1: I love the game theory of matching wits with an animal. UM,

2039
01:57:50,840 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 1: So I think it requires all those layers. And then

2040
01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:57,920
Speaker 1: I guess the third part of this, which goes back

2041
01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:02,720
Speaker 1: to my vole analogy. I think I'm just aware of

2042
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:05,440
Speaker 1: the series of bargains I have to make to move

2043
01:58:06,040 --> 01:58:11,400
Speaker 1: um to move through this, and particularly to that bargain.

2044
01:58:11,440 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 1: And I thought about this the other night. I was

2045
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:16,520
Speaker 1: a couple of whiskies deep, but I thought about, you know,

2046
01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:20,000
Speaker 1: if I let the moles live, I probably can't because

2047
01:58:20,000 --> 01:58:22,200
Speaker 1: that these things are gonna propagate and there's going to

2048
01:58:22,240 --> 01:58:24,000
Speaker 1: be just destroying my yard. I'm not going to be

2049
01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:26,480
Speaker 1: evil to have the garden that I want to have

2050
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:30,760
Speaker 1: if I let these things live, and if I kill them,

2051
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:32,400
Speaker 1: i'll have a garden. Well, if I let them live,

2052
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:36,080
Speaker 1: I have to go buy my vegetables elsewhere and enact

2053
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:37,960
Speaker 1: of proxy. I wouldn't have had to do if I

2054
01:58:38,000 --> 01:58:40,360
Speaker 1: had a garden in my backyard. And so I might

2055
01:58:40,480 --> 01:58:42,320
Speaker 1: let these things live and there might be no suffering

2056
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:45,640
Speaker 1: on their part, but then I have to Then I

2057
01:58:45,640 --> 01:58:49,320
Speaker 1: have to go and kind of enact some mysterious suffering

2058
01:58:50,520 --> 01:58:53,560
Speaker 1: UM through buying vegetables from a local farmer or going

2059
01:58:53,560 --> 01:58:56,400
Speaker 1: to the grocery store or whatever. So I would much

2060
01:58:56,520 --> 01:59:00,080
Speaker 1: rather kill the number of holes as necessary to to

2061
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:04,440
Speaker 1: UM to grow my garden and have control over over

2062
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:07,960
Speaker 1: that part of it. So I think that the constant

2063
01:59:08,040 --> 01:59:12,000
Speaker 1: bargaining is something that I hope if vegans listen to this.

2064
01:59:12,080 --> 01:59:13,560
Speaker 1: I don't know why I don't know why they would,

2065
01:59:13,560 --> 01:59:15,480
Speaker 1: but if if somebody is a vegan, listen to this,

2066
01:59:15,680 --> 01:59:18,800
Speaker 1: like don't and hunters too, don't act like you're not

2067
01:59:18,920 --> 01:59:22,720
Speaker 1: bargaining everything that you do. Like and I like that

2068
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:25,480
Speaker 1: your approach is to just think about the suffering. Is

2069
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:28,600
Speaker 1: it necessary? Is it unnecessary? I think about it that

2070
01:59:28,640 --> 01:59:32,920
Speaker 1: way too. Um. It's never perfect on any end of it,

2071
01:59:33,040 --> 01:59:36,760
Speaker 1: so UM, I think, I yeah, that's something I would

2072
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:39,200
Speaker 1: love for people to to take away from this. It

2073
01:59:39,240 --> 01:59:42,720
Speaker 1: is like we always are making bargains and I'm choosing.

2074
01:59:42,760 --> 01:59:44,720
Speaker 1: I know, we talked about this last time. I'm choosing

2075
01:59:44,760 --> 01:59:48,959
Speaker 1: the suffering I can see and control versus the suffering

2076
01:59:49,160 --> 01:59:54,000
Speaker 1: I can't see and can't control. Um, both through my hunting,

2077
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:55,720
Speaker 1: and then that kind of gets reflected through the rest

2078
01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:58,960
Speaker 1: of my life. And you know, I greatly respect that,

2079
01:59:59,160 --> 02:00:04,680
Speaker 1: and we I think, UM yeah, the issue of confronting

2080
02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:08,280
Speaker 1: the suffering, I think that's important in all aspects of

2081
02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:12,280
Speaker 1: our lives. With regard to what you what you mentioned earlier,

2082
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:15,800
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the suffering component with regard to food production.

2083
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:21,440
Speaker 1: There's a suffering component with regard to um dry goods

2084
02:00:21,480 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 1: and clothing, there's a suffering production. UM, suffering footprint with

2085
02:00:27,760 --> 02:00:30,800
Speaker 1: you know, where we choose to build homes and where

2086
02:00:30,800 --> 02:00:32,800
Speaker 1: we choose to live. And like I said, there's a

2087
02:00:32,840 --> 02:00:36,440
Speaker 1: half a million homeless people. Um, I do homeless work.

2088
02:00:36,480 --> 02:00:38,880
Speaker 1: When I was in Chico, I worked with a homeless organization.

2089
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:43,080
Speaker 1: And I think there's an analogy here is you know,

2090
02:00:43,200 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 1: I spent um every Sunday in when I was in Chico,

2091
02:00:48,360 --> 02:00:52,920
Speaker 1: every Sunday in the plaza where the homeless population often gathered,

2092
02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:55,800
Speaker 1: and we would are our little group. We would talk

2093
02:00:55,840 --> 02:00:59,040
Speaker 1: to them and you know, hand out some some some

2094
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:04,000
Speaker 1: clothe and stuff. But the main focus of our interactions

2095
02:01:04,240 --> 02:01:08,880
Speaker 1: were too to get up close and personal with the

2096
02:01:09,000 --> 02:01:11,880
Speaker 1: lives of these human beings and find out like, well,

2097
02:01:11,920 --> 02:01:13,360
Speaker 1: how did you get here? And what what is your

2098
02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:15,800
Speaker 1: what's going on here? You know, tell me about your life.

2099
02:01:16,080 --> 02:01:19,920
Speaker 1: And of course in the town, the majority of people,

2100
02:01:20,240 --> 02:01:23,200
Speaker 1: there's a big movement you know to remove the homeless

2101
02:01:23,240 --> 02:01:26,360
Speaker 1: and criminalize right. And what I would say in my

2102
02:01:27,480 --> 02:01:31,080
Speaker 1: and my um presentations before the city Council or in

2103
02:01:31,120 --> 02:01:34,040
Speaker 1: my letters to the editor would be like, look, come

2104
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:36,640
Speaker 1: out of the plaza, come out and talk to the

2105
02:01:36,640 --> 02:01:41,000
Speaker 1: people and and and humanize them. They're they're here and

2106
02:01:41,120 --> 02:01:44,120
Speaker 1: the notion that you have that this is a scourge

2107
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,880
Speaker 1: that needs to be removed. I bet you once you

2108
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:51,320
Speaker 1: spend an afternoon talking to someone and and humanizing them,

2109
02:01:51,400 --> 02:01:56,240
Speaker 1: you'll feel differently. And so what I'm getting at is

2110
02:01:56,240 --> 02:01:58,400
Speaker 1: is that you know, you and I like, you've chosen,

2111
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:01,360
Speaker 1: like we've both chosen this pain ath of like to

2112
02:02:01,360 --> 02:02:06,200
Speaker 1: to be aware of the suffering engaged in our food consumption.

2113
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:11,280
Speaker 1: But as you mentioned as well, there's suffering all over

2114
02:02:11,360 --> 02:02:15,360
Speaker 1: the many chains of our interactions in our culture, in

2115
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:19,360
Speaker 1: our lives and our society. And I think it's really

2116
02:02:19,400 --> 02:02:22,200
Speaker 1: important then this this point you bring up, it's really

2117
02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:27,760
Speaker 1: important for us too to confront the suffering, to to

2118
02:02:27,760 --> 02:02:31,000
Speaker 1: to look closely at the suffering. And and as my

2119
02:02:31,240 --> 02:02:34,600
Speaker 1: good buddy in Homeless Work and Chico Patrick Newman always says,

2120
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:38,000
Speaker 1: he says, he says, in that suffering, in that death,

2121
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:45,320
Speaker 1: there is invaluable information to gain to tell us about ourselves,

2122
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:47,880
Speaker 1: to tell us about who we are as a people,

2123
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:50,920
Speaker 1: who we are as a culture. So so when you

2124
02:02:51,360 --> 02:02:53,920
Speaker 1: and and for you and people who hunt like who

2125
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:56,480
Speaker 1: we are as interacting with animals, and what does it

2126
02:02:56,520 --> 02:02:59,840
Speaker 1: tell us about you know, animals and their sentient live.

2127
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:04,280
Speaker 1: So I think this is a a massive important point

2128
02:03:04,360 --> 02:03:09,480
Speaker 1: that you raise. Is is and again, we can't we

2129
02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:11,840
Speaker 1: can't spend we we can't spend every minute our of

2130
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:14,960
Speaker 1: our lives looking at all the different sufferings. It would

2131
02:03:15,000 --> 02:03:17,080
Speaker 1: just it would take up all of our time. But

2132
02:03:17,080 --> 02:03:19,280
Speaker 1: but by the same token, we don't want to bury

2133
02:03:19,280 --> 02:03:22,800
Speaker 1: our heads in the sand and shield ourselves from these realities. Right,

2134
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:25,240
Speaker 1: So I think, I really do. I think you make

2135
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:28,040
Speaker 1: a such a such an important and profound point. Is

2136
02:03:28,080 --> 02:03:32,040
Speaker 1: that is that confronting the suffering and confronting the death,

2137
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:36,680
Speaker 1: as difficult as it is, it tells us about ourselves.

2138
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:40,480
Speaker 1: It gives us information about who we are individually, who

2139
02:03:40,480 --> 02:03:43,520
Speaker 1: we are in our families, who we are in our communities.

2140
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 1: And I I'm with you, man, I like advocate more

2141
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:51,640
Speaker 1: confronting and the suffering. It's what it's gonna do, as

2142
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:53,960
Speaker 1: difficult as it is. And I know you agree, it's

2143
02:03:53,960 --> 02:03:56,160
Speaker 1: gonna make us better. We're gonna be better on the

2144
02:03:56,200 --> 02:04:01,200
Speaker 1: other side of that examination. Yeah, exactly. And if if

2145
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:03,640
Speaker 1: you you know, that's why I come back to. We

2146
02:04:03,720 --> 02:04:09,200
Speaker 1: had a Cornell ethicist on Dr James Tantillo in January

2147
02:04:09,320 --> 02:04:12,280
Speaker 1: UM and we talked about this, this idea of tragic wisdom,

2148
02:04:12,680 --> 02:04:15,880
Speaker 1: and I it is, you know, and whether or not

2149
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:20,280
Speaker 1: you know, hunting is it's some sort of serious art. Um.

2150
02:04:20,280 --> 02:04:24,960
Speaker 1: And it is and it it starts to bring to

2151
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:26,680
Speaker 1: to bear and it has brought to bear in me

2152
02:04:27,720 --> 02:04:31,600
Speaker 1: and hopefully people that listen to this show, um what

2153
02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:35,280
Speaker 1: you just said, you know, are we can we take

2154
02:04:35,320 --> 02:04:38,560
Speaker 1: this baggage. It's I mean, death is never going to

2155
02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:41,040
Speaker 1: be a positive. Suffering is never going to be a positive.

2156
02:04:41,200 --> 02:04:44,520
Speaker 1: It's always it's the baggage of life. I mean it

2157
02:04:44,680 --> 02:04:47,880
Speaker 1: is if to live is to to to suffer from

2158
02:04:47,920 --> 02:04:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, suffer from death. And at some level, um,

2159
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:55,400
Speaker 1: and so if we can just acknowledge that and say,

2160
02:04:55,400 --> 02:04:58,960
Speaker 1: like what, that's where hunting becomes kind of a ritual

2161
02:04:59,040 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 1: experience to me in a way that and I would

2162
02:05:01,960 --> 02:05:04,120
Speaker 1: tell you that one of the one of the main

2163
02:05:04,240 --> 02:05:07,720
Speaker 1: rituals I've come to appreciate. I'm I mean, I'm thirty four,

2164
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:10,520
Speaker 1: so I can't say in my later years like in

2165
02:05:10,640 --> 02:05:15,480
Speaker 1: my in my thirties. Um, what I've come to appreciate

2166
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:17,480
Speaker 1: in this time of my life is kind of the

2167
02:05:17,640 --> 02:05:23,960
Speaker 1: transformation of this animal that has that lives in breathes

2168
02:05:24,000 --> 02:05:28,600
Speaker 1: and suffers, and has relationships, and has a natural knowledge

2169
02:05:28,640 --> 02:05:33,600
Speaker 1: and and has been created out of you know, thin air.

2170
02:05:33,760 --> 02:05:36,320
Speaker 1: And this is like just a ball of um. It

2171
02:05:36,400 --> 02:05:40,120
Speaker 1: is in itself just kind of morality. I take its life.

2172
02:05:40,560 --> 02:05:44,120
Speaker 1: I feel what I feel. Sometimes I feel more than

2173
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:46,440
Speaker 1: I do other times. It's it's just kind of It's

2174
02:05:46,480 --> 02:05:50,840
Speaker 1: just a a very ambiguous thing to explain. But once

2175
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:53,800
Speaker 1: once I get through that part and I start to

2176
02:05:53,960 --> 02:05:57,800
Speaker 1: take I take its hide off, UM, I start to

2177
02:05:57,880 --> 02:06:00,600
Speaker 1: examine the parts of its body that I want to eat.

2178
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:05,000
Speaker 1: I take those parts, I deconstruct those parts, and then

2179
02:06:05,080 --> 02:06:07,240
Speaker 1: by the time it gets to where I'm getting ready

2180
02:06:07,240 --> 02:06:09,760
Speaker 1: to cook it, the transformation in my mind is so

2181
02:06:09,880 --> 02:06:14,000
Speaker 1: complete that it goes from this thing I struggled with,

2182
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:18,160
Speaker 1: this ultimately beneficial thing, and to ride along with that

2183
02:06:18,800 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 1: from from the struggle to the benefit is where the

2184
02:06:23,760 --> 02:06:27,840
Speaker 1: value sits for me ultimately. And so I would say

2185
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:30,440
Speaker 1: to all vegans, like, I don't want to I don't

2186
02:06:30,440 --> 02:06:33,520
Speaker 1: want you to go shoot a bunch of animals, um,

2187
02:06:33,560 --> 02:06:36,280
Speaker 1: but like find something that gets you there, that gets

2188
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:39,320
Speaker 1: you from like the struggle. Two. It could and it

2189
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:41,600
Speaker 1: could be your clothes. You could go you know make

2190
02:06:41,640 --> 02:06:43,840
Speaker 1: your own clothes and understand the struggle to get the

2191
02:06:43,880 --> 02:06:47,600
Speaker 1: textiles and get the like, get the knowledge and understand

2192
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:49,920
Speaker 1: the abilities you need to have and then finally make

2193
02:06:49,960 --> 02:06:54,000
Speaker 1: a shirt that's comfortable and doesn't feel like shit like that,

2194
02:06:54,640 --> 02:06:59,000
Speaker 1: the struggle, the suffering, all of it. Um, if you

2195
02:06:59,000 --> 02:07:01,720
Speaker 1: can find something in your life that tracks that journey,

2196
02:07:02,680 --> 02:07:06,320
Speaker 1: you'll you'd be You don't have to be completely impervious

2197
02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:10,160
Speaker 1: to to not find some perspective from it. Amen, Amen

2198
02:07:10,200 --> 02:07:14,520
Speaker 1: ben um. So yeah, that's where that's where I where

2199
02:07:14,520 --> 02:07:18,320
Speaker 1: I sit, and I think, Um, that's where I think

2200
02:07:18,320 --> 02:07:20,280
Speaker 1: you're doing the same thing. Man. I I think you

2201
02:07:20,280 --> 02:07:22,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't be a vegan or animal rights person if it

2202
02:07:22,760 --> 02:07:27,200
Speaker 1: didn't provide value to your life. Uh, you're not doing

2203
02:07:27,200 --> 02:07:29,560
Speaker 1: it to make a point. I know you're not. Um,

2204
02:07:29,680 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 1: you're doing it because it's you feel it's making your

2205
02:07:33,920 --> 02:07:38,320
Speaker 1: your existence better and holy beneficial. Yeah, And like I said,

2206
02:07:38,360 --> 02:07:42,160
Speaker 1: I if it's even if it's just a little incremental difference,

2207
02:07:42,360 --> 02:07:44,720
Speaker 1: when you know, when my day comes and I'm like, well,

2208
02:07:45,120 --> 02:07:47,000
Speaker 1: I was on the planet for X amount of years

2209
02:07:47,120 --> 02:07:51,920
Speaker 1: and I left the place maybe just a little bit

2210
02:07:51,920 --> 02:07:54,120
Speaker 1: better than how it was when I got here. Just

2211
02:07:54,200 --> 02:07:57,920
Speaker 1: because something I did. You know that that's really what

2212
02:07:58,200 --> 02:08:00,640
Speaker 1: you know I'm looking to do is to is to

2213
02:08:00,760 --> 02:08:03,440
Speaker 1: really just reduce the suffering. As you said, you know

2214
02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:08,240
Speaker 1: it's never a good thing, but um I just I

2215
02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:13,680
Speaker 1: just I mean, it's it's m I try to fight

2216
02:08:13,960 --> 02:08:17,400
Speaker 1: feeling powerless as an individual, and a lot of things

2217
02:08:17,400 --> 02:08:20,280
Speaker 1: we talked about today, I think are in the realm

2218
02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:23,320
Speaker 1: of of like what can we do as individuals? And

2219
02:08:23,360 --> 02:08:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, in my in my darker moments, I do

2220
02:08:25,960 --> 02:08:29,720
Speaker 1: think can I make any difference in this entire system?

2221
02:08:29,840 --> 02:08:31,920
Speaker 1: You know? And but you know, on the days when

2222
02:08:31,960 --> 02:08:34,200
Speaker 1: I feel good, like we were talking about before, I

2223
02:08:34,200 --> 02:08:37,760
Speaker 1: feel like, let me put it to you this way,

2224
02:08:37,840 --> 02:08:41,400
Speaker 1: even if I can't make a difference, I still have

2225
02:08:41,480 --> 02:08:43,760
Speaker 1: to try. Like there's no there's it's almost like there's

2226
02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:48,640
Speaker 1: no choice. Um As as the philosopher Jean Paul Sart

2227
02:08:48,960 --> 02:08:52,640
Speaker 1: said back in the forties, he's like, uh, you know,

2228
02:08:52,800 --> 02:08:57,000
Speaker 1: the French were not fighting fascism, fascism because we think

2229
02:08:57,040 --> 02:09:00,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna win. We're fighting fascism because it's fast. Just

2230
02:09:00,360 --> 02:09:03,360
Speaker 1: it's fascism. And I feel like it's like I have

2231
02:09:03,480 --> 02:09:05,640
Speaker 1: to do what I have to do, and it's really

2232
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:08,400
Speaker 1: maybe it's not really for the results anyway, it's just

2233
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:11,280
Speaker 1: because I have no alternative. I have to try to

2234
02:09:11,360 --> 02:09:14,320
Speaker 1: live a life where I where I, you know, to

2235
02:09:14,400 --> 02:09:17,960
Speaker 1: the best of my ability, live as authentically as possible,

2236
02:09:18,080 --> 02:09:21,280
Speaker 1: confront the death and suffering, and maybe I don't know,

2237
02:09:21,320 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 1: if I'm lucky, maybe make a place a little bit

2238
02:09:24,120 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 1: better for you know, my kid. Yeah, yeah, I mean

2239
02:09:27,320 --> 02:09:30,160
Speaker 1: you're you know. The point you made earlier on was

2240
02:09:30,240 --> 02:09:32,320
Speaker 1: is an important one, Like we can do both. We

2241
02:09:32,560 --> 02:09:35,560
Speaker 1: can shape our own personal you know, impact, but then

2242
02:09:35,600 --> 02:09:38,200
Speaker 1: also worry about how are we going to solve this

2243
02:09:38,240 --> 02:09:41,280
Speaker 1: problem overall because we gotta impact our We can impact

2244
02:09:41,280 --> 02:09:44,919
Speaker 1: our governments in the way that they're constructed, and um

2245
02:09:44,960 --> 02:09:46,960
Speaker 1: our global society and the way that we treat each

2246
02:09:47,000 --> 02:09:49,320
Speaker 1: other and what we value. We can't impact that by

2247
02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 1: speaking out and talking about it too. So I appreciate it, man,

2248
02:09:52,480 --> 02:09:54,760
Speaker 1: And you really do. Like just just talking with you,

2249
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:57,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if this case be like, you bring

2250
02:09:57,560 --> 02:09:59,840
Speaker 1: out a lot in me that I wouldn't have this

2251
02:10:00,040 --> 02:10:02,760
Speaker 1: covered otherwise. Um, So I appreciate it, man. I think

2252
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:06,760
Speaker 1: it's yeah, yeah, no, I thank you for that, man.

2253
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:09,320
Speaker 1: It's uh. I love doing podcasts for this reason, because

2254
02:10:09,360 --> 02:10:12,160
Speaker 1: you come off like, hey, who knows what we figured out,

2255
02:10:12,240 --> 02:10:14,640
Speaker 1: but we at least are able to talk through some

2256
02:10:14,720 --> 02:10:17,800
Speaker 1: things that that I probably wouldn't have without your presence.

2257
02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:20,000
Speaker 1: So I really really do appreciate that. Thank you, man,

2258
02:10:20,040 --> 02:10:22,360
Speaker 1: I appreciate it a lot. All right, Well, you're gonna

2259
02:10:22,360 --> 02:10:24,360
Speaker 1: come back, aren't you. We'll probably have to. This will

2260
02:10:24,360 --> 02:10:27,640
Speaker 1: probably spin into many other conversations here down the road.

2261
02:10:27,960 --> 02:10:29,840
Speaker 1: As long as I'm breathing, I'm ready to go on

2262
02:10:29,960 --> 02:10:33,520
Speaker 1: with you, man, I love man. Well, we'll be safe,

2263
02:10:34,040 --> 02:10:36,440
Speaker 1: be happy and healthy over there, and um, we'll check

2264
02:10:36,480 --> 02:10:50,760
Speaker 1: in soon. Thank you, okay, Ben, take care many that's it.

2265
02:10:51,560 --> 02:10:54,000
Speaker 1: That's all another episode of the books. Thank you very

2266
02:10:54,080 --> 02:10:57,160
Speaker 1: much to Robert C. Jones for joining us once again.

2267
02:10:57,200 --> 02:10:58,640
Speaker 1: I can't wait to have him back the next time.

2268
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:00,320
Speaker 1: As I said there at the end of the show

2269
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:04,200
Speaker 1: and even in the opening, he I think brings out

2270
02:11:04,240 --> 02:11:06,720
Speaker 1: the best of me. He makes me think critically about

2271
02:11:06,800 --> 02:11:09,680
Speaker 1: very important ideas, and I'm happy to have him around

2272
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:11,840
Speaker 1: for that reason and others. He's just a really nice guy,

2273
02:11:11,960 --> 02:11:14,480
Speaker 1: really thoughtful guy. Um, when this is all over, I

2274
02:11:14,520 --> 02:11:20,080
Speaker 1: hopefully we can share a whiskey and talk about these

2275
02:11:20,120 --> 02:11:23,800
Speaker 1: topics and even more depth, So hang on for that,

2276
02:11:24,360 --> 02:11:26,080
Speaker 1: all right, Well, we'll see you next week. We had

2277
02:11:26,120 --> 02:11:28,240
Speaker 1: a great one for you next week, that is with

2278
02:11:28,320 --> 02:11:32,160
Speaker 1: Donnie Vincent, the Great and Powerful. Donnie Vincent had a

2279
02:11:32,240 --> 02:11:36,080
Speaker 1: good conversation with him about his views on the pandemic

2280
02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:42,240
Speaker 1: and his views on UH nature and viruses, So stick

2281
02:11:42,280 --> 02:11:44,400
Speaker 1: around for that. It's an entertaining one. We'll see you

2282
02:11:44,440 --> 02:11:47,400
Speaker 1: next Tuesday on The Hunting Collective. Say bye Phil H

2283
02:12:00,200 --> 02:12:01,160
Speaker 1: two