1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always for 3 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: tuning in. This is part two of our strange dive 4 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: into a Tureen of Turtle Soup history. What's a tureen? 5 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: A tarin is like a thing where you hold soup, right, 6 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. It's like like a gravy boat. Yeah, 7 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: I guess it's like a super gravy boat. So like 8 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: in Secret of the Ooze, you know, when the animals 9 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: get accelerated by the mutagen. Maybe a tarin is like 10 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: a gravy boat with like a mutagen powered gravy boat. 11 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: If you look up to read their fancy Oh my god, 12 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: but you're right. It's like a leveled up gravy boat, 13 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: or like a casserole or something. Also seemingly a requirement 14 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: is for it to be ornately decorated with flowers and 15 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: leaves and decorative handles. Well, anyway, we digress. Here's the episode. 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: Recipes for the fake or mock turtle soup appear right 17 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: around the time that real turtle soup recipes appear so 18 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: interesting because like, yeah, you're right, I mean, like you said, uh, 19 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: it was mock turtle soup that was served Abraham Lincoln's 20 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: first inauguration because the times were a little tighter and uh, 21 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: you know, turtles were not as easy to come back. 22 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: I don't know that doesn't make sense in terms of 23 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: like the scarcity of the actual turtles, but they were 24 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: expensive and it was just much more austere times. Um, 25 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: but okay, yeah, mock turtle soup had already become already 26 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: a British classic. Hines, Like we said at the earlier 27 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: in the show, when when something really starts to break through, uh, 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: in the zeit guys, in terms of culinary stuff, it 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: ends up in mass produced cookbooks, and Hindes was one 30 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: of the big ones. Um. It was in their cookbook 31 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: and then they eventually even canned it and made a 32 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: version that was like mass marketed. And even if it 33 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: was something that you know, more people could have access to, 34 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: it didn't mean that it was something that your average 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: home chef could just whip up because some part some 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: of the stuff is like literal butchery, you know, where 37 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: you really have to know what you're doing. Uh. Some 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: of the process involved dressing a calf's head, which started 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: with opening the skull no, no, no, small task, uh, 40 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: and extracting the brains and then the face meat and 41 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: the tongue, and then the meat has to be boiled 42 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: before letting it stand overnight. So this is really quite 43 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: disgusting to do, but it was hugely popular. This whole 44 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: idea of boiling a calf's head seemed for some reason 45 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: to be really a pe length. It was considered high end, 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: even though it was essentially trash meat, kind of like 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: the way Edward Edward Burnet has made bacon popular amongst 48 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: the plebs. Interesting point. Yes, also shout out to Fergus Henderson, 49 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: the luminary behind one of my favorite restaurants, St. John 50 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: in London. Fergus, if you're hearing this, you'll love the 51 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: following part. Mock turtle soup took the world by storm. 52 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: And really, when we talk about mock turtle soup, we're 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: talking about calves head soup. We're talking about a name change, right, 54 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: We're talking about branding, because when people started making mock 55 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: turtle soup, what they're doing is they're reproducing that rendering 56 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,839 Speaker 1: of fat, the green fat of the turtle's body versus 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: the fat of the head of this calf. There's a 58 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: long tradition of sheep or cow head soup. We have 59 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: to remember, even though it might be cheaper than a 60 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: gigantic turtle, a calves head is still kind of high end, 61 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, you're buying the whole head. 62 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: When's the last time you walked into a supermarket and said, 63 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: I'll buy the whole head. Yeah. No, that's not something 64 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: I would ever hope to find myself doing. But I 65 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: see the I see the logic. Even though it is 66 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: typically the part that gets thrown away, it does feel 67 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: like a big to do, you know, when you're getting 68 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: the entire head, brains and all um. You know, it's 69 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: all on how you sell it. It's all on how 70 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: you spin it and when it starts ending up on 71 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: menus at places like the Waldorf Astoria or the Plaza Hotel, 72 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: the St. Regis Hotel, even in the White House is 73 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: seven official cookbook. And that's when you start to see 74 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: the more like kind of fancy um spice blend and 75 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: and seasoning with sherry, cayenne, pepper, lemon, sugar, salt and 76 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: mace um. And that is kind of what I believe 77 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: is considered the classic recipe for both turtle and mock 78 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: turtle soup in terms of like the bass seasonings. And 79 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: it's so interesting because you know, what essentially is just 80 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: a totally different soup unto itself, was created, you know, 81 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: not to trick people, right like not, it wasn't trying 82 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: to mislead people. It was called mock turtle soup. But 83 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: it was just like such a it had such a 84 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: place in people's hearts and minds, this turtle soup that 85 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: it just really sort of took hold in and of itself. Um. 86 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: And maybe where when even when turtle soup fell out 87 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: of fashion, mock turtle soup became more popular then the 88 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: original turtle soup to the point where Lewis Carroll you'll 89 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: probably remember in his eighteen sixty five Alice in Wonderland 90 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: had a character called the mock Turtle. Um. And Alice 91 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: says in the the story, I don't even know what 92 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: a mock turtle is, and they're there in kind of 93 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: lies the joke because aside from the boiled calf's head, 94 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: I think that's sort of the point, isn't you don't 95 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: really know what's in mock turtle soup? What is a 96 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: mock turtle is the thing mock turtle soup is made from. Uh. 97 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: Lewis Carroll also, by the way, very creepy dude, A 98 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: very very creepy guy. I'm sure that many of our 99 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: listeners today are aware of this. Yeah, you're right, though, 100 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: mock turtle soup became its own sort of acknowledged thing 101 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: that had very little to do with actual turtles. I 102 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: know you guys have not eaten turtle or mock turtle, 103 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: maybe yourself, but I have. I have eaten both. Actually, 104 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: I guess technically I've eaten multiple things that will qualify 105 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: as mock turtle soup. But I've eaten actual turtles as well. Uh. 106 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: I would still do it if it were not for 107 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: their endangered status. Well, Ben, does it taste? Is it 108 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: as advertised in the lore? It does? It tastes like 109 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: a combination of shrimp, pork, veal, beef, and chicken all 110 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: rolled into one. I think it depends on how you 111 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: cook it, man. Uh. Also, why soup? Why soup? And 112 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: why not say freaking sea of filet, etcetera. It's because 113 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: this was a way to culturally frame the consumption of 114 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: awful O F F A L all that stuff that 115 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: you usually don't see on a restaurant menu, right, yeah, 116 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: and that's because in the forties, you know, uh, it was, 117 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: it was, it sort of mattered. It was almost like 118 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: a national campaign to try to convince regular folks, you know, 119 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: civilians to eat all those leftover bits, because the you know, 120 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: the tastier bits, the chops and the steaks and all 121 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: the cuts people are used to seeing. We're being shipped 122 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: overseas to feed soldiers during the war um and they 123 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: were left with a surplus. You know, we as a country, 124 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: left with a surplus of hearts and kidneys and brains 125 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: that were you know, they are ultimately sources of protein, 126 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: so it seems a shame to waste them. So you're 127 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: left with the situation, and how do I package this 128 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: up so that people can stomach it? Literally? Right? How 129 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: do we make it seem fancy to eat these things 130 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: that are ordinarily treated as throw away cuts? How do 131 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: we persuade people two enjoy this? Right? How do we 132 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: make it acceptable and bonus points or stretch goal they 133 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: would call it. How do we make it aspirational? With marketing? 134 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: There is the shadow of exactly and so instead of 135 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: calling it awful, or trash meat or gutty parts. They 136 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: coined the term. It was actually Margaret Mead, this cultural 137 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: anthropologist who was working with the Department of Defense with 138 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: some food sciencests, some homemack experts, and they created this 139 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: marketing campaign around this awful the gutty bits, uh, And 140 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: they coined the term. And I think this is pure genius. 141 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: Variety meets. I think it's pretty good. I think it's 142 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: I think it's seven point three out of ted. It's 143 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: like the same reasoning with Halloween candy, with the little 144 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: candies they call fund size. I speak for every childhood 145 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: trick or treater when I say, how how can something 146 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: be fun when there's less of it? So anyway, yes, 147 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: variety meets, they're doing their best. Uh. And this is 148 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: a product of austerity during World War two. But after 149 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: World War two ends, the US encounters this huge economic boom. 150 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: It's one of the few countries that didn't have its 151 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: infrastructure bombed into ruins. So people in the US just 152 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: go back to steaks and burgers and they keep skipping 153 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: you know this sweetbreads, the pancreas, the trotters, the food, 154 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: the awfuls, the you know, the the Rocky Mountain oysters 155 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: were probably still a thing because people will always be weird. 156 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: But but one there was one exception to this rule 157 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: was the calf's head in mock turtle soup. The real 158 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: name for this soup should have been cow head soup 159 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: calf's head soup, but that also didn't last forever. Mock 160 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:43,479 Speaker 1: turtle soup was popular till about the late nineteen fifties. 161 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: By the nineteen sixties, it was considered increasingly anachronistic. It 162 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: was fancy anachronistic, like a double breasted uh soup coat 163 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: or a monocle, yeah, or like aspect or you know, 164 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: cooking make savory gelatins. For example, Um, there's a restaurant 165 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. It's actually, I think in danger of closing. 166 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: It's called the Colonnade. It's like an old meat and 167 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: three type, you know, super old school restaurant, and they 168 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: have aspect on the menu still because it's just a 169 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: hold over. Some people just don't change with the times, 170 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: and that can actually be charming in small doses, but 171 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, uh, society can't sustain just a ton of those. 172 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: There's like the few little holdouts, and in this case, 173 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,599 Speaker 1: the holdouts were luxury passenger liners like the s S 174 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: United States and the carriage House in Fort Worth, which 175 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: was a fancy French restaurant. Um. Because this is the 176 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing, like the aspect that I could see 177 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: the French, you know, kind of hanging onto for a 178 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: little longer. Um. But there are reasons that we can 179 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: pretty easily pinpoint as to why people aren't into eating 180 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: gutty parts so much anymore. It's because we don't have to, 181 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: and they're kind of gross, and they seem like the 182 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: parts you should leave. I like a tongue taco. I'm 183 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: not gonna lie I. I've talked about my history with 184 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: eating liver pudding and brains and eggs, not something I 185 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: would go for on purpose these days. But I also 186 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: like liver. I do like fried liver and onions. Uh 187 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: So that's probably the most acceptable of what would be 188 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: considered the awful. But all the rest of that stuff 189 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: still available from your local butcher um, but usually more 190 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: by request. Right, It's not like there's a whole keeping 191 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: caste full of awful parts, right. Well, it depends on 192 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: where you go in different countries. It's a different story too, sure, Yes, 193 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: And the grocery stores I go to have awful of plenty. 194 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: But you're right, I talked about this on stuff. They 195 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: don't want you to know the soft cultural taboos of 196 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: what is or is not acceptable to eat, and these 197 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: are relatively arbitrary things. Why do I not see turtle 198 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: soup on my menu? Ben? You might be asking yourself, 199 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: you sort of a fish? Uh? Why did you all 200 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: spend h two episodes talking about this turtle suit and 201 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: I cannot order any of it? Well, the explanation lies 202 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: in a couple of factors. First, courtesy of our friend Gabelusier, 203 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: one of the answers, maybe indoor plumbing. Indoor plumbing decreased 204 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: the average homestead interaction with the turtle because you're not 205 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: going to creeks, you're not going into swamps, you're not 206 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: going into the wild to grab your water, which means 207 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: you may not be seen turtle. And then, also going 208 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: back to what I said earlier about the soft cultural 209 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: taboos of what is or is not to be eaten, 210 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: turtles started to enter the realm of dogs and cats 211 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: in that they were they were becoming somewhat anthropomorphized. You 212 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Well, sure, the aff formentioned teenage 213 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: mutant Ninja turtles. You got your urtle, the turtle you got? 214 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: What what other turtles you got? There's that turtle in 215 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: the Tusti role pop commercial that everyone like, so well, yeah, 216 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: it's I I you know, I've brought this before, even 217 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: on this show. But I think on stuff that I 218 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: want you to know, where it's like the cultural taboos 219 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: around eating certain animals. I always feel like there's not 220 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: a clear line in the sand with that because I 221 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: know plenty of people that have pet rabbits, and rabbits 222 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: are uniformly cuddly and and and sweets, even though they 223 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: can be a little bity and and feral. But you know, 224 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: people still eat rabbit stu, mainly at higher end restaurants, 225 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: but that's still definitely on the menu. Rabbits that are 226 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: bred for slaughter. Uh. Turtles, on the other hand, you know, 227 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: people can still keep turtle as a pet. You can 228 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: still find a traditional type of box turtle like you 229 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: might have when you were a kid. But now that's 230 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: across the line um after being so insanely popular. I'm 231 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: just I mean, I'm fascinated by that. One thing that 232 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: I thought was interesting too, is it's hard to tell 233 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: the difference between a more common turtle and some of 234 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: its more endangered brethren, so that's an important thing to 235 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: consider as well. There's another thing that's interesting here, so 236 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: post World War two, that's when we really see the 237 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: decline of turtle soup as both an aspirational thing and 238 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: an actual thing. On menus, we have to mention that 239 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: the decline was sort of signaled or telegraphed in advance 240 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: by the end of World War one, way before, way 241 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: before World War two. Prohibition comes in, as every Gormands knows, 242 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: one cannot have proper turtle soup without cherry, and if 243 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: you can't have sherry, then you can't have turtle soup. 244 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: So it's suffered under a prohibition. And we know from 245 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: previous episodes people weren't really following the laws of prohibition. 246 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: But when there was no fortified wine that was easily available, 247 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: obviously people weren't making the turtle soup the way they 248 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: like to make the turtle soup. And then post World 249 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: War two, the decline is accelerated because you got convenience foods. 250 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: It's the nuclear America. We've got frozen TV dinners, we've 251 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: got better can soup. We've got mixes. You don't have 252 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: to spend hours and hours every day cooking over a 253 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: smelly pot. You no longer have to find a huge turtle, 254 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: a casey verified size of a large dog turtle and 255 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: hang it from his back fence. You know, it never 256 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: occurred to me that prohibition would have really done a 257 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: number on flavoring and sauces, because there would be no 258 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: cooking wines, no liquors for making sauces, which is really imported. 259 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: And I mean a little white wine uh in like 260 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: a shrimp scampi or something like that. I mean that 261 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: you really needed. And the irony is the alcohol burns off. 262 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: I guess you know. Johnny Law just couldn't trust Americans 263 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: to just cook with their sherry and not take a 264 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: little sip. They had to take an all or nothing approach. 265 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: Thank god we got through that. Um. But yeah, this 266 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: was in fact a nail in the coffin for turtle soup. 267 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: No sherry. You don't have the soup, but you're used to. Um, 268 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: But you're right, Ben, you know. Lumped in with that, 269 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: as we heard from the Hinds Company, there were canned 270 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: versions of mock turtle soup. It did kind of get 271 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: it's its moment brief as it was as as a 272 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: convenient food, but it just didn't stick. Campbell's uh did 273 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: not continue to make their version of mock turtle soup. 274 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: It was described as having a tempting, distinctive taste so 275 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: prized by the epicure at the time. Um and that 276 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: was before nineteen sixty. But it didn't have this making 277 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: power that like you know, your cream of mushroom and 278 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: chicken noodle would have had. Though it did have its 279 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: uh it's it's devotees, one of which was Andy Warhol, 280 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: campbell soup can enthusiast and apparently big fan of of 281 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: mock turtle soup. He even said he likes to shop 282 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: for discontinued flavors. If you ever run across mock turtle, 283 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: save it for me. It used to be my favorite, 284 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: but I must have been the only one because they 285 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: discontinued it. Ridiculous histories, you're saying right now, obviously this 286 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: sounds amazing. Where is my turtle soup? Where is my 287 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: mock turtle calves head soup? Well, we have an answer 288 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: for you, and that answer is Cincinnati. The love of 289 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: mock turtle soup continues in the modern day. I'm sorry 290 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: to sound a little rudd surtling about that, but it's true. 291 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: This is a solved mystery. There is a twilight zone 292 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: turtle soup part of the US. German immigrants traveled to 293 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: Cincinnati in the eighteen hundreds, and according to Sherry Brinkman, 294 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: who wrote a fantastic book Cincinnati in Soup or a 295 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: fantastic series of cookbooks, I should say, uh, the mock 296 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: turtle movement continues in Cincinnati. She says, today's Cincinnati chefs 297 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: make the dish with ground beef rather than awful, but 298 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: it's just as popular as ever. It's still made by 299 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: many local restaurants and at church festivals. You can also 300 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: order canned mock turtle soup from a company called Worthmore. 301 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: I The thing is, let me be honest with you, guys. 302 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: The thing is they canned version includes the hard boiled eggs. 303 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm just so skeptical canned hard boiled eggs. Like God, 304 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: I want to believe, you know, I feel very David 305 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: Tocovany about this, very fox molder. I want to believe, 306 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: but I'm skeptic. I'm fine with not believing in that 307 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: one canned hard boil like like, the idea of pickled 308 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: eggs just makes me want to puke. I don't don't 309 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: care for it. I like a hard boiling my own egg. 310 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: I also don't like store bought hard boiled eggs. Something 311 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: about that. I just need it to be, you know, 312 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: a me thing. I will say tho as far as 313 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: an hard boiled egg in a soup or a soft 314 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: ball egg in a soup, like you know, those ramen 315 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: eggs are really tasty and they're sort of like marinated 316 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: and soy and marrin and they have a really nice 317 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: kind of mommy to them and of themselves. But they're 318 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: a nice little added seasoning for a for a bowl 319 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: of ramen. Yeah, I got it. I prefer if I'm 320 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: if I'm boiling egg, I prefer to be the boiler. 321 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: You know. Same? Yeah, I like that vertical integration, uh 322 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: without me laying the egg. That's the threshold. But but well, Casey, 323 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: what do you think? What do you think you? Uh? 324 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: Would you buy hard boiled eggs? And again no, I 325 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,719 Speaker 1: can't say I would, ben Casy on the case, how 326 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: about mock turtle soup? Casey would you try that, or 327 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: or regular turtle soup. I would I would do the 328 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: mock turtle soup. I don't think I could bring myself 329 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: to do the regular turtle soup. You're okay with boiled 330 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: calves head, but not turtle meat. You know, people are strange, strange. 331 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: So here's the thing. Real turtle soup is increasingly difficult 332 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: to get these days because, as we've mentioned earlier, these 333 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: animals are endangered or they may be rare, so the 334 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: idea of processing them for soup takes an understandable back seat. 335 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: You can find and a couple of corners of the 336 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: internet you can find, uh, people selling canned turtle actual 337 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: turtle soup, not mock turtle. But it's gonna be pretty old. 338 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: At this point there there aren't fresh canned varieties, meaning 339 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 1: that if you are eating at a fancy restaurant and 340 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: you're eating actual turtle soup, it is uh, it is 341 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: probably fresh made, one would hope. Otherwise, don't tip. I'm kidding, 342 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: always tip, always tip minimum be a good person. Indeed, 343 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: and I think this concludes are for a into the 344 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: weird and wonderful, questionably world of of turtles as cooking ingredients. 345 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed it. It's not been the most appetizing conversation 346 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: we've had in recent memory. But um, I think I'm 347 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: gonna go and make some non turtle soup after we 348 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: get done here for for lunch, just to kind of 349 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: cleanse my palace which has sort of a greasy patina 350 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: on it now. Um, but huge thanks to to you, 351 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: Ben for for having that, for joining me on this 352 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: journey and being here, you know, but huge thanks to 353 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: you Ben for h for joining me on this journey. 354 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: Thanks to you as well, Noel. Huge thanks to super 355 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: producer Casey pet Grip, Alex Williams who composed this amazing soundtrack, 356 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: and of course Christopher Hasiotis. Thanks to researcher extraordinary Gabe Bluisier, 357 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: Jonathan's trickling the Quister and don't forget. If you would 358 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: like to find us or our show, we are available 359 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: on social media channels of note to the Twitter, the Pinterest, 360 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: no not the pintrest, never the pintress um bringing that 361 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: one back, uh, and the Instagram. You can find us 362 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: as a show or as individuals. I am on Instagram 363 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: at how Now Noel Brown. You can find me on Twitter, 364 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: app and Bulling hs W and you can find me 365 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Ben Bullen or at number one Leafblower 366 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: Fan on Pinterest in my Space. For more podcasts for 367 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 368 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.