1 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. Unfortunately, my colleague Tracy Elloway is out 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: again this week, so it's just going to be me 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be talking again kind of about 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: the broader crypto world. But I think a really interesting 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: different story this time. So listeners might remember that in 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: two seventeen, during the last cryptocurrency boom, when Bitcoin was 8 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: taking off, through all these follow on coin offerings and 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: beyond just that, beyond just other coins, are all these 10 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: ideas about how different industries could be transformed via blockchain 11 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: technology in some way, or tokens or their own cryptocurrencies, 12 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: and the work stories about putting banana trade on the 13 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: blockchain with the currency, and dentistry having its own currency 14 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: and all kinds of weird things that never really took off. 15 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Tomatoes there was a famous story about putting the tomato 16 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: trade on the block chain. Anyway, none of that has 17 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: really taken off, And at the time when a lot 18 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: of this was going on, I thought a lot of 19 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: these um endeavors were kind of cynical, just attempting to 20 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: cash in on the hot market for coins in general 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: without much purpose, But some of the projects actually did 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: UH did seem sincere, And today we're going to be 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: talking about one such project UH that did sincerely try 24 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: to solve an interesting problem, and that problem was journalism. 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: And so the question was, could this technology could a 26 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: currency somehow helped build a sustainable journalism business model in 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: some way that existing subscription subscription or existing UH models 28 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: weren't capturing UH well or weren't doing a good job 29 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: of So I'm very excited about our guest. I'm going 30 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: to be speaking with Maria Bustillos. She's the founding editor 31 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: of Popular. She has a new endeavor called the Brick 32 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: House co Op, But several years ago she was a 33 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: co founder of a project called Civil which attempted to 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: create a new journalism business model and in part using 35 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: its own cryptocurrency. We're gonna be talking about what she 36 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: learned from that project, and these sort of potential and 37 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: limits of the technology should be very interesting discussion for 38 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: both people interested in finance and markets and our markets 39 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: creating centers, but also journalism and journalism business models. So, 40 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: without further ado, I want to bring in Maria. Thank 41 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. 42 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: It's a real pleasure to be here. Joe. Yeah, I'm 43 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: really looking forward to getting your story. But and it's 44 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: it's always I've been following you in your career on 45 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: Twitter from Afar for a long time. We've never talked before, 46 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: but it's it's always seemed interesting, and you seem to 47 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: have inclination to experiment, to try new things and be 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: open minded about new ideas in a way that is 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: kind of rare for this industry, to be honest. But 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm just sort of curious your background first, you know, 51 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: how you got into journalism and how you got interested 52 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: then in the sort of world of cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology. 53 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: Um well, I am kind of a serial entrepreneur. Really. 54 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: I started my first business when I was in my 55 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: early twenties as a as a designer, like overpriced tchaticas 56 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: for the home, and and then I sold that and 57 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: opened uh kind of like a proto at Sea in ninet. Like, 58 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: I was always really interested in the Internet computers. I 59 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: met my husband on Prodigy, you know, so I kind 60 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: of came at journalism from an interest in the Internet, 61 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: and you know how a long time interest in sort 62 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: of research and writing and an entrepreneurial stuff, and my 63 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: husband's a Wall Street guy, so there was a lot 64 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: of business in our in our house, business talk, and 65 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: that's kind of how I how I approached it to 66 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: start with. But I mean, you know, I love sort 67 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: of literature and blogs, and I wound up going to 68 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: um see that terrible movie Avatar with my husband and 69 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: I just hated it so much, and I just came 70 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: home and banged out this like absolute screed about how 71 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: awful it was and sent it to my favorite block, 72 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: to Corey Spica, and he printed it and that became 73 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: my job, like eleven years ago. Almost. That's awesome. I 74 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: love I love stories like that. I feel like so 75 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: many of the most interesting people in media came at 76 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: it from some angle where they didn't originally intend to 77 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: be in journalism, but then all these new tools opened 78 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: up and they realized they could write, and they're like, oh, 79 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: this is pretty cool, and that's a that's a pretty 80 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: great story. I love it. I like, this is my 81 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: favorite job by far, and there's there's a lot of 82 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: work to do in it. So I've been really fortunate 83 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: to be for in front of some really interesting projects. 84 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Civil and I this civil you 85 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: could describe it, but it got a lot of attention 86 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: from the sort of like media world. Media. The media 87 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: world is always upset with like media business models and 88 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: sustainable journalism and who's going to pay for journalism and 89 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: you know, understandable and why there's so much concern. But 90 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: talk to me about that project. When was it conceived 91 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: and sort of what was the problem you were trying 92 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: to solve. Well, the interesting thing is I had been 93 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: really interested in founding a block chain based journalism publishing platform, 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: like before Civil contacted me. It was like this really 95 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: weird coincidence, you know, because I had been interested in 96 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: bitcoin and blood chain technology from very shortly after it started. 97 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: You know, maybe I started looking into it, and um 98 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: I wrote about bitcoin for the first time in for 99 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: the New Yorker blog. I was you know, people all 100 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: thought it was very weird at that point, and I mean, 101 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: it is really weird. But the things that, yeah, well, 102 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: what interested me about it always was here is a 103 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: way to produce incorruptible records and they cannot be altered. 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 1: And I have a very big interest in archiving in general, 105 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: and so I kind of still see that is the 106 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: most valuable aspect of blockchain technology. That's what you know, 107 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: people talk about applying it to voting, talk about applying 108 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: it to cold chain, you know, supply chain, like all 109 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: this stuff. What they're really talking about is that they're 110 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: incorruptible records are unfalsifiable records because they're distributed. So when 111 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: you kind of apply that idea to journalism very separately 112 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: from the idea of a currency or a token, it 113 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: looks different, right. It's like, this is a way to 114 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: record things. I was really fortunate, you know, as civil 115 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: to be the first person ever to commit the full 116 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: text of a news story directly into the Ethereum block chain. 117 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: This is like really important, right, This is an I 118 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: PF S or some other kind of incorruptible distributed things. 119 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: Is like it cannot be changed until you basically have 120 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: to shut off the Internet. Once you have recorded something 121 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: in the Ethereum block chain, it's now on what like, 122 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: you know, a fluctuating number of computers, but tens of 123 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: thousands of computers, there's always going to be a record 124 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: of it, kind of like there used to be microwthiast 125 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: records of newspapers. It's very similar to that. You can't 126 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: you can't falsify that. I like wrote about Barack Obama's 127 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: birth records, you know, like really there was an unfalsifiable 128 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: mark microfish in Hawaii. If that had not existed, it 129 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: would have given a lot more oxygen to the birth 130 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: of movement. But there were unfalsifiable records in that library. 131 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: And so I kind of view what blockchain can do 132 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: for journalism is being related to that. So I've been 133 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: looking for a way to uh, you know, just kind 134 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: of instantiate these ideas, and and then I got this 135 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: phone call, like just out of the clear blue from 136 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: Josh Benston of Old Town Media, who had been consulting 137 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: for Civil and what it was. It was a consensus 138 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: funded project. I mean at that point, you know, end 139 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, the price of ethereum got to fourteen 140 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: hundred I think at the end of that year, and 141 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: so it would go down between that point and the 142 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: bottom I think was sixty six. So consensus was very 143 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: flesh with cash money and they were throwing it around 144 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: it a lot of projects that were you know, sort 145 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: of had a social you know component of some kind, 146 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, or there's suitor stuff, you know, there's like 147 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: they just had unlimited money and they were handing it 148 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: out and so this is Consensus. So this is one 149 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: of the one of the original sort of co founders 150 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: of the Ethereum project started a company called Consensus, which 151 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: I think characterizes itself is a development studio for etherium projects, 152 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: and as part of it, they fund various endeavors designed 153 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: to build something a top the network. Yes, Joe lit 154 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: bin Um, you know, funded civil directly, and I think 155 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: it was originally like five million or something like that. 156 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: It was really substantial investment and so you know, there 157 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: was money in it, and it was the idea that 158 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to work on. And I'm like, oh my god, 159 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: They're like, we want to start a black chain based project. 160 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: I like, sit down, let me tell you what we're 161 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: going to do. But um, you know, it was really 162 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: fun and a lot of the ideas and are I 163 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: haven't changed my mind about any of it really. But 164 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: what happened is that the crypto winter came and you 165 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: know kind of why, well, you know, regulators didn't like 166 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: all these I c o s. You know, they started 167 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: there started being a lot of money raised in those markets, 168 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: and I mean, I don't know. I know that this 169 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: is maybe a slightly crazy idea, but I I think 170 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: that regulators watching those markets swell up, you know, and 171 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: seeing like an actual direct threat to the regular capital markets, 172 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, started paying a lot of attention, and suddenly 173 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: it became, you know, very difficult to do an ic 174 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: out you don't you say, direct friends to capital markets. 175 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: A cynic might say a bunch of people got fleeced 176 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: on some of these huge things because the projects were 177 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: always sort of um, you know, some of these mega 178 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: ones never really took off extraordinary amount of money, raise 179 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: extraordinary amount of short term speculation assets that by many 180 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: accounts looked like traditional security regulations whose purpose exists to 181 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: protect investors in theory loss a ton of money. True, 182 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: I mean, and go past that, there was like scam Scalore, right, 183 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: Like there's also scam Scalore markets. So that's true. Maybe 184 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: people forget this, you know, but so like this is 185 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: what I was saying in the intro, which is that 186 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: at the time, you know, I was like, there struck 187 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: me as a lot of projects that had no purpose 188 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: other than to cash in on the market. And when 189 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: Symbol launched and seeing the participation of people like yourself 190 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: and other sort of like long time veterans of the 191 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: media industry. It has had a pretty impressive roster. It 192 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: did not look to me like a sort of get 193 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: rich quick thing by any stretch. And so that's why 194 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: at least seemed different than all these other projects. And 195 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: so like what was the premise because it wasn't actually 196 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: putting content on the blockchain, right, well, it was for me. 197 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: I mean there's one thing, right, there's a number of 198 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: things that you can do with this technology, like, for example, 199 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: you know comments, Yeah, you can, Like I actually built 200 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: this with the last of my civil many because I 201 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: was just so interested in popular which tiny, tiny little laboratory. 202 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: It still it works. You know, you can only put 203 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: a comment on a popular story if you're a paying subscriber, 204 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: and it costs five cents worth of eat to do that. 205 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: And what this does is make zeros fam You don't 206 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: have to have any kind of thing like that's just 207 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: one thing. There's a hundred things like this that you 208 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: can do with it, right, But the way it was 209 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: supposed to work was the token. It was an ARC token, 210 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: which is like sort of you know, sort of ethereum 211 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: is kind of like programmable currency, right. It's it's like 212 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: bitcoin that you can put code to it. And so 213 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: you you have a token that is specific to a 214 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: certain project or set of properties or people or whatever. 215 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: You can you can program it to be for one purpose. Now, 216 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: if you have like a journalism denominated token, let's say 217 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: you have to purchase subscriptions using the token, you have 218 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: to do your comments using the token, you have to 219 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,599 Speaker 1: like you create like an economic world um that's denominated 220 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: in this token. And so you know what I like, 221 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: I was really excited about things like micro tipping. This 222 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: was like a huge, huge thing for me. Microsipping is 223 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: still huge and we can do this up popular right now. 224 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: But I mean very few people have eight So I 225 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: mean at the same time that this whole thing is happening, 226 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 1: the market is contracting, you know, there was there were 227 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: there were some regulatory blows that were well, the one 228 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: fatal one I think is when Finsen decided tightened the 229 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: rules for what counted as a money transfer business. Like 230 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: what it sort of meant was if I were to 231 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: tip you know popular writer in eat and popular is 232 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: holding that eat for the writer, I'm now I'm now 233 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: a money transfer potentially now it costs three million dollars 234 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: a year to get licensed for that, like in all 235 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: fifty states, because it's like a state regulated thing. And 236 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: so they made it impossible for these projects to be viable, 237 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: and you know, and it kind of all goes hand 238 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: in glove, you know, the prices, crashing, confidences, you know, 239 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: eroding and all this stuff kind of happened at the 240 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: same time. But what it was supposed to do is 241 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: stuff like that, is like make it make it possible 242 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: to do like frictionless micro tipping really really cheap wit. 243 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: So I want to actually, before you go any further, 244 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: I want to ask about that point specifically, because the 245 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: idea of sort of micro payment for content for journalism. 246 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: People have fantasized about this for a while, and from 247 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: what I understand, and I've never been directly involved in 248 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: any of these projects, but from what I understand, the 249 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: issue is never really I mean, maybe the issue is 250 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: partly of the cost, but also the issue is sort 251 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: of the mental cost. Do I want to think about 252 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: doing a transaction every time I make a comment or 253 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: load an article or whatever like that is sort of 254 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: like a mental tax. And when I think about doing 255 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: that in a cryptocurrency which is already like ten times 256 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: more complicated. It's like, okay, I'm gonna like pay an Eve, 257 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: and now I have to check the eight to US 258 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: dollar exchange RAID, and I have to have like my 259 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: separate Like okay, I got to go buy some Eve 260 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: and then I have to convert that into the civil token, 261 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: and I have to hold that into a wallet, and 262 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: I need to remember my password for the wallet, and 263 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: if I don't, then all that money is gone. It 264 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: always struck me as like, all right, so we've taken 265 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: all of the difficulties of micropayments, which we know are enormous, 266 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: and added about five different complicated, uncomfortable layers on top 267 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: of it. So tell me why my that perception is wrong, 268 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: because that's my outside perception of the challenge here. Yeah, 269 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: well it's it's you can do it today and it's 270 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: really easy, uh, with a metal mask wallet that just 271 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: sits in your browser. And this was in vision right 272 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: when we started. Meta Mask was like, well, on its way, 273 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: you can do meta mask. This is a meta mask 274 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: is a browser based ethereum wallet, right that allows you 275 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: to hold ethereum and any Ethereum based token such as 276 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: the civil token. And when we started, the idea was, well, 277 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: by that time, you'll be able to buy eight with 278 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: a credit card. It will take five seconds, you know. 279 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: And so but I mean, right now, if you just 280 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: if you, if you get through the hoops, which is 281 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: like roughly like opening a bank account, you know, to 282 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: open a crypto account at you know, coin base or whatever, 283 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: you have to show them, you know, picture idy and 284 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: all the kind of junk. But you know, you you 285 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: can buy ethereum and you can put it in your 286 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: browser and it's just always there, so you don't actually 287 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,239 Speaker 1: have to think about anything. That like my theory of 288 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: it was, I had this moment when we were in 289 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: development and I read this really good story that Frank 290 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: Rich had written about the history of his his career. 291 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: You know, he's a New York magazine or something. And 292 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: I got to the end and he has really meant 293 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: a lot to me in my career. It just in 294 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: heeps such a wonderful writer, and so um, I got 295 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: to the end of this thing and I thought, if 296 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: I could send this guy fifty dollars right now, just 297 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: so he knows, you know, what he just is a 298 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: is a way of saying I appreciate this piece, like 299 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: you've so much for me, I don't know I would 300 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: send it, And so I thought this is gonna work. Right, 301 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: there's this moment of passion at the end, like after 302 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: you hear the song or whatever, after you read the story, 303 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: that your heart opens to the idea of contributing to 304 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: that person's welfare directly. I think it's very important, and 305 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: so you can do that right now at popula Um 306 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: using a metal mask wallet. It really once you set 307 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: it up, it takes five seconds. It doesn't interfere with 308 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: you in any way. You just click two buttons. All 309 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: the exchange and all that stuff is handled in a 310 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: very smooth, seamless, very simple way. Just that you want 311 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: to do it in dollars, you want to send fifty dollars, 312 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: it just automatically does the eighth transfer whatever price it's 313 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: at at that point. And considering the problems that we're 314 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: getting this thing started, it's remarkably simple right now. So 315 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: but I mean, you know, people are afraid of it, 316 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: and I mean with good reason. They should be careful, 317 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: just like they should be careful with their regular money, 318 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: just like they should be careful not to let their 319 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: credit card never be stolen. I mean, these are problems. 320 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: It exists in all of every economic transaction. You know, 321 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: if there is a store of value that somebody can sees, 322 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: they will do it. And in the case of crypto, 323 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: you can seize someone's assets with a very little risk 324 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: of being caught. Although there is that risk has increased substantially. 325 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: So um, I'm still a big believer in all these 326 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: in all these principles, it's just not a way to 327 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: do it. Now, why not dollars? Like if I go 328 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: to if I see like this is this is still 329 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, if it's about tipping. So you know, 330 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: I think we want to if we sort of decompose 331 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: the question of how the technology could be applied to journalism. 332 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: There's the first thing that you've described which is super 333 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: powerful to me, the idea of creating a truly permanent record. 334 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: And as you say, if you have like a sufficient network, 335 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: enough computers, enough hash power, you could inscribe something onto 336 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: the blockchain as you have done, or onto a blockchain 337 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: um that really like cannot ever be tampered with. And 338 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: that's pretty powerful. When it comes to something like tipping, 339 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: it could be done with dollars. I mean Venmo exists, 340 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: I get, you know, that's a mobile thing, but right, 341 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: like the Apple pay exists, what is the idea by 342 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: which a cryptocurrency solves this problem and creates new incentives 343 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: for journalism business models that didn't exist. We've seen many 344 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: attempts at micro tipping. They never took off because the 345 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: transaction costs were too high, you know, the tips that popular. 346 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: I mean we've only taken you know a few fewer 347 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: than a thousand so far, but like they're quite often 348 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: like ten cents, you know, cents, which would be great, 349 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: right if if there were a way to do that. 350 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: All these other technologies didn't work out because they became 351 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: keeping track of the transactions. It's very bloated. This is 352 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: a great thing that crypto or you know, really chain 353 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: technology can do. It's like it removes the overhead and 354 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: creates like a bulletproof audit trail for every transaction. You 355 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: can have a quite complicated system where people are leaving 356 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: each other ten and twenty five cents, you know, and 357 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: it's it doesn't create any sort of accounting overhead at all. 358 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: It's all done automatically. So that's like a huge thing. 359 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: Like the other thing is you know the system I 360 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: have right now, If you write a comment and you 361 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: pay your five sets and you write your comment, that 362 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: comment is also eligible for tips. The idea is to 363 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: create an economy of discourse. So here here's something I wondered. Okay, 364 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: let's let's talk a little bit more about the civil 365 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: structure and how it was supposed to work. And so 366 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: the idea was it was going to be this token 367 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: offering And tell me if I'm wrong, but this is 368 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: my impression from the outside. There was this token offering 369 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: that was going to raise some money. Then that was 370 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: gonna fund a series of news rooms that were like 371 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: a sort of multiple journalism endeavors under the civil umbrella. 372 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: And then that token uh would be used to a 373 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: fund the newsrooms and then people would have that and 374 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: they could um then what happens from there, like what 375 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: what is the purpose of the token after the sort 376 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: of fund raise to get the journal uh, the initial 377 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 1: ce see the journalism? What is its purpose there? And 378 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: how why and why would it go up or down 379 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: at that point? Like what makes it fluctuate? Okay, So 380 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: there were multiple projects going on at the same time. 381 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: There was a token curated registry. Have you heard of this? Yeah, 382 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: but only kind of, so maybe explain that. Okay, So 383 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: they I was not in favor of having this be 384 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: the first project, but it was the first project at 385 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: Civil and what it was supposed to do is actually 386 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: determine who was allowed to publish ah UM. And it 387 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: was supposed to be like the community itself is sort 388 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: of this self policing thing. There was like a civil 389 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: code of conduct is like it was actually pretty good. 390 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: I helped them work on an UM a bunch of 391 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: us did. It was like, you know, no plagiarism and 392 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: make your best efforts to verify what you print and 393 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. And the idea was the 394 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: community would cause new new applicants to come in and 395 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: stake a certain amount of tokens, and then people would 396 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: decide between themselves whether or not this person is okay. 397 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: And you know, it's sort of like they like an 398 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: entrance fee or whatever. That is then sort of help 399 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: by the company. But if people want to complain, then 400 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: they have to stake tokens and they say, like you're 401 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: a neo Nazi whatever, and so like I'm going to 402 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: stake these tokens and vote you out, and so like 403 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: if there's it's kind of like a a voting situation, 404 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: but you vote with the token and so you you 405 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: allow people into the network or you you throw them out, 406 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, based on the sort of token government system. Um. 407 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: There have been many attempts at token curity registry before 408 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: civil happened, and they have all failed because you know, 409 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: I think the idea is not without merit, but it 410 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: is not ready for prime time by any means. It 411 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: depends on you know, a large group of people having 412 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: enough overhead to pay attention to the rules and to 413 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: sit there and that this is work, you know, vetting 414 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: a newsroom deciding whether or not they've committed plagiarism or 415 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: whether or not they're adhering to this quota conduct. However simple, 416 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: it is a bunch of people have to sit there 417 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: and and you know, spend valuable time looking at some 418 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: bozos website. You know, it was insanity. So um, I 419 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: was fummed about that. But I mean, but the idea 420 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: of the premise was is that there are all these 421 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: contentious fights that happened online all the time. Is this 422 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: tweet misleading? Is this Facebook post a lie is this 423 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: hate speech, etcetera. And the hope was that if there 424 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: were some sort of monetary stake involved in the debate exactly, 425 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: that that could resolve these questions an agreeable way for 426 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: the community exactly. And even the right to the right 427 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: to publish itself, you know, was contingent. You know. The 428 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: thing is, I took a lot of civil tokens as 429 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: a compensation for this thing, you know, the idea and 430 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: the way that the I c o s were going 431 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: When we first started looking into this, it was a 432 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: great bet, you know, because like any etherory token was 433 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: gonna like I was having a ball, you know, um, 434 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: and I just like to roll the dice. But I 435 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: mean I believed in it hugely. I still do. Because 436 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: the thing is, if you have a you don't really 437 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: need to call it a token, right, But if you 438 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: have a community like like that is linked in it's 439 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: and it's within its economy, is interlinked, all the participants 440 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: have a stake and what is going on, and it's 441 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: frictionless way of recording things that happened, that would be 442 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: great for this industry. It would still be great. The 443 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: problem is how to make those principles um attainable within 444 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: the current frameworks that we haven't they're not right now. 445 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: You know. Something I was thinking about, so like when 446 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: I first got into writing, I just started, as you know, blogging, 447 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: and I just like set up ah, I don't know, 448 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: I think it was like two thousand five, and I 449 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: set up a type Pad account and I just started blogging, 450 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: and you know, it's just for the fun of it, 451 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: you know when you mentioned like these tips of like 452 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: sometimes just a few pennies or ten cents or twenty cents, like, 453 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: does that ever sort of I don't know, I could 454 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: see that having a negative effect because here you are thinking, 455 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: like I'm just doing and I kind of wanted to 456 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: do it for the fun of it, and that's like, 457 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: oh great, I got seventy cents, which is really not 458 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: that much money for a thing. It's like, that's what 459 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: it's worth two people like I would it, doesn't It 460 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: seems like that would be perhaps, even though it is 461 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: technically some sort of compensation, that that might have a 462 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: sort of deterring or demoralizing effect, just like that's it. Well, 463 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: that's very mercenary, Joe. You know when it's like, well, 464 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying like once you established the idea like like 465 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: it's one thing if you're just like, I want to 466 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: be part of the conversation. This looks fun. I want 467 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: to blog. I want to write my take on a 468 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: movie that I just saw. I want to take down 469 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: an article that I run in the New York Times 470 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: and that right, want to write a thing debunking it. Well, 471 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: those you know, that's like what I felt like motivated. 472 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: And then it's like you introduced the idea of like Okay, 473 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna join this network or be part of this 474 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: network of and there's gonna be some compensation, and then 475 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: people like send a few tips and they come out 476 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: to a dollar fifty. It's like I would rather just 477 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: sort of I don't know. I feel like that would 478 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: be a less I feel like that would be a 479 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: counter motivator. Well, I don't know, and I disagree. I 480 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: think it's it's sort of like a if that somebody 481 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: comments favorably on your work with no money attached to it. 482 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: It's I find that pleasurable, the idea that somebody is 483 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: reading it. Yeah, it's pleasurable to me. And you know, 484 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 1: I agree completely. I mean that was to me, like 485 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: that's the fun part, right, so you have that plus 486 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: this other thing that's just a goofball thing, right, Yeah, 487 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: I mean, what what people are really doing is entering 488 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: into a dialogue with you. It's had a little buddy 489 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: attached to it. That's fine, and it's fine. It's good. 490 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: So you know you mentioned that. Then I want to 491 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: sort of talk about your new project in a second, 492 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: But you mentioned that. At the time that you got 493 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: this going, it's civil launched its token. At the time, 494 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: it was still like all these tokens were just flying 495 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: to the moon and make a fortune, and it was 496 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: probably like a good bet to hold onto them. Do 497 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: you think actually you were penalized in part because it 498 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: was a serious project designed to solve a serious problem 499 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: and not the sort of get rich quick scheme slash 500 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: scam that other people are running. Oh no, not a bit. 501 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, no, I think it was we were 502 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: just one of this huge constellation of projects in the 503 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: consensus universe. They were starting so many things at once 504 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: because this huge amount of wealth had just ballooned like 505 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: so fast, and so the seriousness or otherwise of a 506 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: project was like the absolute least consideration. You know, it's 507 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: kind of like just just look at all the millions 508 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: of things that we all have to rent to do 509 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: this as quickly as we can. You know, if I 510 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: mean probably if Civil had ic O like you know, 511 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: and six months earlier, Yeah, it would be really would 512 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: be looking at a real different story. I don't really 513 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: quite know how exactly, but it wouldn't be like this. 514 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you're up to now. So, I mean, 515 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: this is a pretty interesting time in UH journalism because 516 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: they're actually does seem to be the emergence of sort 517 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: of sustainable subscription business models with normal fiat money being used. 518 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: We see a lot of journalists this year having launched 519 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: their own newsletters on services like substack and actually in 520 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: some cases making decent livings. A number of sort of 521 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: independent outlets have gone hard paywall UH the athletic as 522 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: a sports thing, as a bunch of different people writing 523 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: about the local sports team. They seem to be doing well, 524 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: and people are showing a willingness to pay for media 525 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: in a way that a few years ago there seemed 526 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: to be a lot more doubts about. So that's encouraging. 527 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: So talk to us about sort of what you've learned 528 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: from that and how you see your current endeavor fitting 529 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: into this new media landscape which seems to have some 530 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: space open to it for paid subscriptions for Yeah, it's 531 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: really exciting. Well, this kind of came out of Civil 532 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: really because there were a group of US publishers who 533 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: really believed in this sort of cooperative model that we've 534 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: been working on its Civil where basically the token was 535 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: supposed to be the vehicle by which we were sustaining 536 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: each other's work, and it was a really cooperative idea. 537 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: So you had all these publishers after Civil broke up, 538 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: and we're thinking, Okay, that was a little too our 539 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: out apparently, but like, let's let's put these ideas to 540 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: work using a more conventional cooperative model. And so we 541 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: studied cooperatives and um, there's a bakery here in Oakland 542 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: called Arismendi that has like an interesting cooperative structure. There's 543 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: cooperatives in Barcelona. And so we put together this really 544 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: novel sort of business model with a friend of mine 545 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: in Cleveland who's a business attorney, and um, I really 546 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: love it. It's like each each publisher, there's nine of 547 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: us in I knew venture. Um it's called the Brick 548 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: Brick House and it's totally flat organizational structure. Tom Scoca, 549 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: who's one of the publishers in it, and I we're 550 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: talking about what are we going to We've got to 551 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: make a thing that just can't be blown down by 552 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: outside forces. And that was kind of how the name 553 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: came up so UM, because we both worked for outlets 554 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: that were like demolished by you know, one way or another, 555 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: like the sort of business craziness storms that have happened 556 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: throughout journalism. And it's like, Okay, let's just try something 557 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: of our own on a small scale that's absolutely free 558 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: of um, the outside influences of advertisers or owners or 559 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: executives or anything. There's like, there's nothing in this thing 560 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: but editors and publishers. And there's nine um, nine of us, 561 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: and each of us has one share. You buy one 562 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: share for one dollar, and all you can do with 563 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: it is sell it back to the company for a dollar. 564 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: So this company is capitalized with nine dollars and so 565 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: it's an LLC, but it runs according to an operating 566 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: agreement where we share subscribers and revenues and expenses according 567 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,719 Speaker 1: to certain formulas. And there's a board of directors and 568 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: and then we have an advisory council of industry leaders 569 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,959 Speaker 1: in case there's stuff that we can't agree on. And 570 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: so we worked really, really, really hard on the structure 571 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: of this thing, because you know, I was in the 572 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: courtroom when Gawker was taken down the whole Hogan trial, 573 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: and I was covering it for death and taxes, which 574 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: is also no more. But but I mean, we did 575 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: not realize what was going on when that thing happened. 576 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: It was just really shocking, right that, when you had 577 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: William brink With saying, you know, in the eighties defending 578 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: the right of Larry Flitt two say in his magazine 579 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: that Jerry Fallwell had incest in an outhouse. You know, 580 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: like First Amendment principles of the press seemed to me 581 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: to be absolutely ironclad. When William Brinquist was defending that, 582 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: it seemed impossible to me that Gawker would be closed 583 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: down for publishing this tiny little bit of like security 584 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: camera footage of called Cogan having spects. It's just like, yeah, 585 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: it's offensive to people, but it's that's that's protected right. Anyway, 586 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: it did not work out, and so it was really shocking, 587 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: and it took us a really long time to discover 588 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: that it was you know, Peter Teel had bankrot dosn'ts 589 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: of you know, a lot of lawsuits with a view 590 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: to taking this this organization down, and he finally got 591 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: lucky with his judge and and so I was like, wow, 592 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: you know, one person can demolish the livelihoods of hundreds 593 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: of people and remove the reading material for millions of 594 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: people because he was offended by something. And so I 595 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: thought that it's just terrifying, you know, it's terrified that 596 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: many can just shut something like this off. And it 597 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: really motivated me a lot to figure out how to 598 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: how to protect that, you know, speech rights and press 599 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: freedom and so that's a lot where this comes from. 600 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: There's not a way for anybody to come and buy 601 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: it out. We're not relying on any billionaires to put 602 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: the bills. It's like, I don't know if may may 603 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: succeed or it may fail, but at least we're trying, 604 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: and it's really fun and we've got a really great 605 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: um group of publishers and uh, we're raising some money 606 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: in a Kickstarter building a simple version of it and 607 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: we'll see where it goes. So where ship people check 608 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: out to learn more Kickstarter, or you just go to 609 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: If you go to Google and type in brick House Kickstarter, 610 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: you'll you'll see it at the top. There's a lot 611 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: more detail there. Ben Smith interviewed me at The New 612 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: York Times about it, and I wrote a piece about 613 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: it the Columbia Journalism Review that explains the details. We're 614 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: probably like at the current pace. I think we'll be 615 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: publishing at the end of October. Well, I really appreciate 616 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: you joining me for this. Um, it's really cool, I think, Um, 617 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: you know you're sort of your appetite to trying new 618 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: things and experiment and see things like civil not work 619 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: out but then just move on and sort of trying 620 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: to experiment is a really cool and refreshing and thank you. 621 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to seeing how brick House goes. And 622 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, obviously still a lot of uncertainty in this 623 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: industry about how people are going to get paid and 624 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: how many people will get paid. So it feels like 625 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: the more projects the better. Thank you, Joe. I really 626 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Handled so much fun talking. I could yell 627 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: about crypto all day long. Yeah, it's great to finally 628 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: meet you, and good luck. Thank you so much. All right, 629 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: take care Maria. Well there you go. Um. You know, 630 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: I think it's super interesting. Like I said in the beginning, 631 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: I guess I viewed a lot of the projects back 632 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: of the I c O Cryptomania is kind of cynical, 633 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: and then I became cynical about them, and I'm still 634 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 1: cynical about them, and even in with this new sort 635 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: of crypto boom, I'm still sort of super skeptical of 636 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: them all. But I did really like hearing the inside 637 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: story of one of them. So looking forward to checking 638 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: out how Maria's current project goes. So this has been 639 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. 640 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow 641 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: my co host Tracy Alloway. She's on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. 642 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: Our guest Maria Bustillo, She's at Maria Bustillo's. Check out 643 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 1: her project brick House on Kickstarter. Follow our producer Laura 644 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: Carlson at Laura M. Carlson. The Bloomberg head of podcast 645 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: Francesca Levy at Francesco Today, And of course you can 646 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: check out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the 647 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: handle at podcast. Thanks for listening.