1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and arress Mussen poll of who did 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: a better job as president has Donald Trump eight points 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: behind President Biden. This is amazing because Rassmuten has me 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: blocked on Twitter for telling them there are a bunch 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: of conservative shows. We have such a great show for 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: you today. The New Yorker's own Eban os No stops 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: by to talk about what the Epstein files say about 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: the Epstein class. Then we'll talk to Yale's own Asha 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Raan Goppa about accountability for the elites in the Epstein files. 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: But first we have the stories the media is missing. 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 2: My there is information coming out of the Epstein files 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 2: in a drip drip, drip faucet, just NonStop. So I 15 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: wanted to take some time and get the listeners up 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: to speed on some of the latest app saluted sanity. 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: Since this is moving quite quite fast, let's start with 18 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: Jamie Raskin saying that Donald Trump is in the Epstein 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: files more than a million times. 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So basically here's what's going on. There are these 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: computers at the DOJ and I think there are two 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: or three of them, and members can come and start 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: the unredacted files. Now, there are still redactions in the 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: unredacted files because this DOJ does not give a fuck 25 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: about any of the norms or about breaking the law. 26 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Because you'll remember, this Ebstein Transparency Act is technically law. 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: So by not doing what the law says, they are 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: technically breaking the law. And this is where we are 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: to not get me startums upset. Raskin had one of 30 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: these unredacted computers, found that Donald Trump's name mentioned more 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: than a million times. Senator Cynthia Loomis from Wyoming not 32 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: running again, is the crypto. Senator is a Republican and 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: says that she now understands what the big deal is 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: after reviewing the unredacted files. 35 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: She's a really quick study, really really fast on the 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: uptake that one. 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: I just am glad that people are talking. There are 38 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: six men. We went in there for two hours. There's 39 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: millions of files, right and for a couple of hours 40 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: we found six men whose names have been redacted, who 41 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: are implicated in the way that the files are presented. 42 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: As he said, he would prefer to allow the Justice 43 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: Department to correct their mistakes. I think it's very generous 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: to assume these are mistakes rather than the reveal the 45 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,399 Speaker 1: names publicly on the House floor. But he said one 46 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: of them is clearly Les Wexner, the Victoria's secret CEO. 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: And another he is an Emiati sultan who is I'm 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: just going to read this because it's already in Bloomberg. 49 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: He is one of Dubai's most powerful executives and his 50 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: name is Sultan Oddmed Bin Siam. He is the one 51 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: who is mentioned in the emails that discuss a torture video. 52 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: Representative Jamie Raskin, ranking member of the House Judiciary, has 53 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: been given access to unredacted copies of files. And remember 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: there still are reactions in those files. The Democrats said. 55 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: He was able to view maybe thirty or forty. They 56 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: were mysterious and baffling reactions, and he didn't know why 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: they were redacted. Ooh ooh, call on me. 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 3: I know why. 59 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: Raskin has said he has seen scandalous new details regarding 60 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: the extent of Epstein's criminality. You read through the files, 61 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: you read about fifteen year old girls, fourteen year old girls, 62 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: ten year old girls, Raskin told reporters on Monday, I 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: saw a mention of a nine year old. This is 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: the largest sex traffick ing ring in American history, and 65 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: these children are as young as nine. Marjorie Taylor Green 66 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: said Trump is the one blocking the release of the 67 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Epstein files. He is the president. There's a reason why 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: he's blocking the release. And I'll tell you why. 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: Three million files. I think we know why these are 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: being held to Frascan says, it's about fifty percent of 71 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: been released, and we know what fifty percent is, and 72 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: this fifty percent already looks bad. 73 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is where we are. 74 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: So for perhaps you remember a Project twenty twenty five, 75 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: a thing we made a little documentary about. One of 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 2: the things it's said was that the EPA was going 77 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: to reclassify the way they measure things and they're going 78 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: to start to say, oh, it's okay that the environment 79 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 2: has impact on humans. And we've now seen that put 80 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: into action, as the inaction of the Project twenty twenty 81 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: five in what year, has reached fifty percent. 82 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they are moving at breath taking speed. They are 83 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: dismantling the federal government and they are dismantling all climate regulation. 84 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: And why are they doing this because they don't care. 85 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: Here's what's happening. 86 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 3: They are. 87 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: Basically, it's the largest act of deregulation in the history 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: of the United States. And Zelden will many animals, He 89 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: will be responsible for the dumps of many chemicals into 90 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: our environment, and Republicans will have done this to us, 91 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: and there's nothing we can do at this moment to 92 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: stop it. 93 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: Speaking of we're at the mercy of the Supreme Court 94 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: now with this one. Trump's tariffs have cost the average 95 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: American household one thousand dollars last year. 96 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Trump's tariffs only makes sense when you realize that 97 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: Donald Trump uses them to hurt people, to hurt countries, 98 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: to be a kleptocrat, to punish enemies, to try to 99 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: keep people online. But what they don't do is they 100 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: don't help Americans. And this is a really good example 101 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: of that. Trump's tariffs costs the average American household one 102 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: thousand dollars last year. New analysis shows Trump's tariffs have 103 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: pushed up US cost of living. And I want to 104 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: talk about this for a second, because basically, the Supreme 105 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: Court can shut down the tariffs. They can stop Trump. 106 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: They are not constitutional. Trump does not have this. Congress 107 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: has his power. The Supreme Court just needs to do 108 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: their jobs here and stand up to Trump. Do I 109 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: think they will. It's hard to know, but it's worth 110 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: realizing that this is like yet another self inflicted injury 111 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: of trump Ism. We find once again that Donald Trump 112 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: is causing damage that he does not need to cause, 113 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: Hurting Americans, hurting manufacturing, I mean, hurting people buying things, 114 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: Hurting the dollar. I mean, it's just, you know, we 115 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: look at Christmas. They were not the same level of 116 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: spending that there should have been for Christmas because people 117 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: don't have money, because things are more expensive. And this 118 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: is all self inflicted injury on the part of Trump. 119 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: He is tariffs are inflationary, He's making things more expensive. 120 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: Americans have less money because things cause. 121 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: More So MOLLI. One of the things we keep hearing 122 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: about is Ken Martin's DNC is not raising as much 123 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: money there is. Of course, there's tons and tons of 124 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: fundraising on Republican side looking to curry favor with Trump. 125 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: And today in the New York Times we have a 126 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: article on the absolutely insane Republican cash edge threat to 127 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: swamp the Democrats and the mid terms but I think 128 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: there's a little bit of nuance to this story. 129 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this is I'm looking at this chart which 130 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: just that Republicans have about I'd. 131 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: Say it's a four x advantage ship. 132 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: I was gonna say it's a shocking chart. So basically, 133 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: here's what's happened. Ken Martin has shit the bed okay 134 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: number one. The DNC cannot raise money. Now is it 135 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: because Ken Martin is a terrible DNC chair. Maybe there's 136 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: some other reason. I don't know, but his job is 137 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: to raise money and he refuses to do that for 138 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: whatever reason. Democrats should be raising money handover fist. Donald 139 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: Trump is a complete disaster. The fact that they cannot 140 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: raise money is because the base is angry at leadership. Period. 141 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: Paragraph Donald Trump has a gazillion dollars MAGA Inc. Has 142 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: I think it looks like three hundred million dollars a 143 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: little bit less. 144 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: Maybe, Yeah, it's around three hundred. 145 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,119 Speaker 1: Now do I think Donald Trump is going to spend 146 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: a lot of money on other candidates? Now? I do not. 147 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: I think that is a slush fund for lawyers. One 148 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: of the things that's worrying for Republicans is going to 149 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: look more like Republicans like Elon Musk because he has 150 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: all the money, is the richest man in the world, 151 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: and he does not give any of that money to charity, 152 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: so he can, in fact, really bankroll a lot of races. 153 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: Now he is completely unhinged, so you may not see 154 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: him jumping into races the way that I think a 155 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: lot of Republicans would like him to be. But he 156 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: is really has a lot of money. I don't know 157 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: how Democrats have managed to fuck this up when it 158 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: comes to fundraising. I mean, this is just shocking. And 159 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: if you see how much better they're doing on the 160 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: generic ballot, you know that there is absolutely zero chance 161 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: that they should be raising that kind of money. They 162 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: should be raising handover fist, and the fact that they 163 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: can't is a real sign that somebody's fucking up in leadership. 164 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: Evan Osnos is a writer for The New Yorker and 165 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: the author of The Have and the Have Yachts. Welcome, Welcome, Evan. 166 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 3: Thank you, Mollie. Great to be back. 167 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: And I both actually write about rich people that sort 168 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: of are This is true, that's hobby. I actually think 169 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: these Ebstein files are in some ways the biggest story 170 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: about wealth and power, the use and misuse of it. 171 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: And I think the idea that there are a wealthy 172 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: cabal of people who consider themselves to be beyond the 173 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: law is entirely what this story is about. 174 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 4: Absolutely right, in some strange way, this is like now 175 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: the master document that lays bare an entire systemic moral collapse. 176 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 3: Like this is the point. 177 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 4: It's not about a few individuals, though we are much 178 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 4: better off knowing the names of these individuals, and I 179 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 4: think we need to continue to get as much information 180 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 4: about the people in these files. But in fact, it's 181 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 4: about a culture. It's about a whole set of moral beliefs, 182 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 4: about a collapse of the idea of shame, about a 183 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 4: collapse of the idea that you should have boundaries and 184 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 4: standards that there are that there's a kind of ostentation, 185 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 4: a kind of privilege, a kind of obscenity that is 186 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 4: beyond the pill. And you know, it's easy to sort 187 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 4: of say, oh, well, you know, are you really telling 188 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: us anything that we didn't already know. Throughout the ages, 189 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 4: there's always been rich and powerful people taking advantage of 190 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 4: the week. Except that doesn't mean that you then say 191 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 4: we're gonna shrug, no, what you say, is that when 192 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 4: you have an opportunity like this to lay it bare 193 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 4: and to make it as clear and as crisp and 194 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 4: as unbelievably frank as these emails are, it's incumbent on 195 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 4: us as a society to say, Okay, let's talk about it. 196 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 4: Let's talk about exactly this problem. 197 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: I also think that what has happened here is the 198 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: cover up, So it is not just you know, we've 199 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: long suspected that wealthy people were doing bad stuff broadly, 200 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: and with Epstein. You know. I remember years and years 201 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: ago looking at the sex offender map because there was 202 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: a sex offender map app and seeing that in Central 203 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: Park was Jeffrey Epstein, and I thought, how weird is 204 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: it that all of us know this guy is a 205 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: scary sex predator, and yet he is still living in 206 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: his fancy Manhattan townhouse. I remember, like literally having that thought. 207 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: And I didn't know him, but I had just read 208 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: reporting about him, and I knew that he had done evil, 209 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: evil things. And what I think is so interesting about 210 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: these reactions is a lot. So much of this story 211 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: is about the FBI covering for itself and covering for 212 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: its agents, and covering their complete disinterest with holding powerful 213 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: people to account. 214 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, accountability, that is the key word here, because in 215 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 4: some ways the greatest luxury good in American life is 216 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 4: the idea that you can escape the consequences for your 217 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 4: own actions, for your own absolute, in this case, debased 218 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 4: criminal activity. But it's also about escaping accountability when your 219 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 4: business fails and you have the right friends who can 220 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 4: bail you out of trouble in a way that you 221 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 4: don't get if you're running a small business in your town. 222 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 4: This idea that you could somehow just slip the surly 223 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 4: bonds of the normal physics of the world, which is 224 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 4: to say that you screw up and you are paying 225 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 4: the price for that. Jeffrey Epstein's life and the people 226 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 4: who surrounded him are examples of how if you had 227 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 4: enough money, and you have enough money in this country, 228 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 4: you can simply buy your way out of those physics, 229 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 4: and you do it at the expense of people without 230 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 4: your power. And here's the piece that I think is 231 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 4: really important to drive home too. That feels almost like 232 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 4: we don't capture it enough in our conversations usually in 233 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 4: this country, which is the idea that somehow shunning people 234 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 4: like Epstein or the many people now who are found 235 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: to have done bad behavior in his orbit by staying 236 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 4: contact with him, that shunning them was somehow considered a 237 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 4: kind of weak minded thing to do. It was a 238 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 4: kind of oh, sort of you know, really, you're going 239 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 4: to get so caught up in that sort of ethical boundary. No, no, sorry, 240 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 4: there are some people who have done things that are 241 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: simply beyond the pale. 242 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: Are you trolling Berry? Why is how darere to start 243 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: keeping that CBS contributor because she is against canceled culture 244 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: except if you do something really bad, like say something 245 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: she doesn't. 246 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 4: I actually think Peter Attia is a prime fascinating example 247 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 4: here because you know, what's amazing in his language and 248 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 4: in the way that he tried to explain his way 249 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 4: out of this absolutely ludicrous and indefensible behavior was that 250 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 4: he said that at that point in his life, he'd 251 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 4: never seen that kind of excess before. That's such a 252 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 4: telling word, right, Molly. What he's saying is I didn't 253 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 4: realize that was possible, and I could actually cross the 254 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 4: blood brain barrier into a world. 255 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: Of excess like that. 256 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 4: That is like such a tell And you know, look, 257 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 4: he has no business continuing on as an advisor to 258 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 4: Americans on health and good living. That's ridiculous, But yeah, 259 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 4: exactly the decision for others to make. 260 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: I also think that it's a decision that we should 261 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: not allow them to get away with. And I think, 262 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: like the job. So what we're seeing here is that 263 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: if you are at all placid and if you would 264 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: all believe that things will sort of turn out the 265 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: way they're meant to, you're probably in the wrong and 266 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: you probably need you know, Like, for example, I think 267 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: so much about Julie Kay Brown, who was just we 268 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: just I just interviewed. 269 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: Like that story, okay, right, that story. 270 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: Is basically dead. It happened he had gotten the sweetheart deal. 271 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: They were victims, but you know, it's sort of settled, 272 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: and here's Julie and she goes out and she starts 273 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: talking to these victims, and it turns out that there 274 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: are not ten victims, they're not fifteen victims. There are 275 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: more than a thousand victims, and they have spanned four 276 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: decades and decades and decades, and so that is a 277 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: story that would have never you know, Jeffrey Ebstein would 278 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: have gotten away with it. And I just want to 279 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: say one last thing in this very long winded question, 280 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: which is yesterday I was on Nicole Wellce's show and 281 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: I met one of the victims and she said she 282 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: had been victimized from twenty two thousand and four to 283 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and five. So you realize, like the first 284 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: Wow allegations we saw were like in the nineties. So 285 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: here are women who this is just absolutely preventable. 286 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and in a way, this is a prime demonstration 287 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 4: of the thing people want most of all these days, 288 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 4: which is a reminder that we are not in fact 289 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 4: powerless in the face of this kind of abuse and 290 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 4: of this kind of of this kind of political and 291 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 4: social and ethical abuse, which is exactly what we're talking 292 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 4: about here, that as a society, one of the things 293 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 4: we've learned is that in US you have nutnik reporters, 294 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 4: bless us all, who are willing to just honestly keep 295 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 4: driving home and keep driving home. The fact that these 296 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 4: questions haven't been answered, this story hasn't gone away. I mean, 297 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 4: Julie Brown in the best way is in the tradition 298 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 4: of investigative reporting that goes back to like Ida Tarbell 299 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 4: and Upton Sinclair. The reason I mentioned folks from the 300 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 4: Gilded Age. Is this is what we're talking about. We're 301 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 4: talking about now, the investigative reporting that is bursting open 302 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 4: the mechanics of our gilded age at the moment, and 303 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 4: she is showing us, oh, okay, in this day and age, 304 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 4: these are the ways in which our most abusive tycoons 305 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 4: are taking advantage of people. 306 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's really good. Upton Sinclair, I'm thinking about 307 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: I'm writing this thing about my grandfather, so Upton Sinclair 308 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: has come into my yeah, fore ground, But I wonder 309 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: it is true, and that is it's funny because it's 310 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: like EBC, such a metaphor for the moment we're in 311 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: right now. 312 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: He's our ultimate creature of this age. I mean, my 313 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 4: colleague John Cassidy at The New Yorker had such a 314 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 4: great way of putting it. He just said in the 315 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 4: last couple of days, I'll get this mostly right, but 316 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 4: he wrote basically that Epstein is the ultimate creature of 317 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 4: an agent which wealth and ostentation and unaccountability are associated 318 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 4: with social status. 319 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 3: Think about it in. 320 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 4: A way, that's an astonishing thing that the idea of 321 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 4: being able to get away with something becomes a status symbol. 322 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 4: That's one of the things that Epstein was was living 323 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 4: out by then continuing to have all of these dealings 324 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 4: with the most powerful people. So now we have somebody 325 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 4: like Howard Lutneck, right, I mean, Haard Lutneck, who it 326 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 4: turns out, has been lying to the American public, lying 327 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 4: to everybody about his contacts with Jeffrey Epstein. And are 328 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 4: we supposed to just kind of shrug and say, oh, 329 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: that was just a scheduling confusion. Give me a break. 330 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 4: I mean, at certain point, why is this person serving 331 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 4: in our name in the cabinet? I just don't understand 332 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 4: how this can go on much longer. 333 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so that's the question. And then you 334 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: think about our Lutnik. And then you think about John Phalen, 335 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: the under secretary for the Navy, who flew on Epstein's jet, 336 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: And then you think about and who got that job 337 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: not because he had a long career of Navy service, 338 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: but because he was a Donald Trump donor and a 339 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: friend from Palm Beach, And you think about you know, 340 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: there are just like at every point, is John Falin guilty? 341 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: Who knows he flew on a plane? He said he 342 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: only flew once. Who knows. But the point is even 343 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: the larger corruption of like donors getting real government jobs 344 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: versus you know, for years donors got ambassadorships, and in 345 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: some ways a door was opened to this level of corruption. 346 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: And it may have been opened during a a Republican presidency, 347 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: but it may have also been opened during a democratic presidency. 348 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: Like there's certainly the road to the to the place 349 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: we are now, the terrible corrupt place we are now, 350 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: is really paved. Yes, with quite a lot of you 351 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: know inches. 352 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 3: I totally agree. I totally agree. 353 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 4: Look, I believed for a long time, and I've written 354 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 4: essentially my last two books are on the fact that 355 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 4: Donald Trump is a symptom of the disease. Yes, he 356 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 4: is a source of all kinds of incredible toxic effects 357 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 4: on America, but he is a symptom of a much 358 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 4: deeper disease. And that deeper disease is about what happens 359 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 4: when you get so much money and power that you 360 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 4: simply detach from the realm that the rest of us 361 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 4: in habit. You're able to seclude yourself almost literally and 362 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 4: physically and geographically on your island or on your yacht. 363 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 4: But then you're also able to seclude yourself in a 364 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 4: world of people who have taken a kind of moral 365 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 4: holiday where they've suddenly decided these rules. 366 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: Don't matter for us. These are for the little people. 367 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: You know. 368 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 4: I remember Leona Helmsley, you know, who is like the 369 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 4: you know, the original the og tycoon of the eighty 370 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 4: and she at one point, it was in her tax 371 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 4: evasion case where somebody remembered her saying, you know, we 372 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 4: don't pay taxes. 373 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 3: Taxes are for the little people. 374 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: Only the little people pay. 375 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 3: Taxes, exactly. 376 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 4: And that right there was like a preview that was 377 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 4: positively decorous and small ball compared to what we're dealing 378 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: with now. But honestly, I see a connection in the 379 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 4: way that if we allowed that kind of world to flourish, 380 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 4: and that, of course was the world that Donald Trump 381 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 4: grew up in k of agony, exactly, that's now the 382 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 4: world that he seeks to thrust upon the rest of 383 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 4: us every day of every year. 384 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: It's funny because I think so much about I'm exactly 385 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: that age, I'm exactly the Leona Helmsley taxes for the 386 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: little people on the cover of the New York Post. 387 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: It comes back to this idea that there was a 388 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: certain class of New Yorkers, and I'm thinking, you know, 389 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: it really does come back to Roy Coone, Roy Kone, 390 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: the consecultary he was, he was really the advisor of McCarthy, 391 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: Joe McCarthy, and then he comes you know, that's sort 392 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: of his rise to fame. And then he creates a 393 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: world of corruption where he's able to get both mafia 394 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: figures who really did run the city during the seventies 395 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: and eighties, and also and then eventually these sort of 396 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: real estate families that kind of took over that mantle 397 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: a little bit h in the nineties and two thousands. 398 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 4: And in a way, what roy Cone represented and the 399 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 4: tutelage which he then delivered to Donald Trump, was this 400 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 4: combination of things. It was that politics is not about 401 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 4: what actually is the morally correct thing to do. It's 402 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 4: about power and submission. It's about that the strong will 403 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 4: do what they will and the week will do what 404 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 4: they must. And it was also about the idea that 405 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 4: there are worlds of secrecy and interior power that you 406 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 4: keep shielded from the public, that you never allow the 407 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 4: regular people to get a visibility on that somehow that 408 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 4: like that's the way the world should be organized, and 409 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 4: you know, I think that they're part of What's so 410 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 4: important about this moment, with the revelation of what's in 411 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 4: these emails, is that it is actually prying open the 412 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 4: doors of a world that is the most closed. I'm 413 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 4: not talking about a very specific world around one finance here. 414 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 4: I'm talking about an entire world of people who are 415 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 4: favor trading and letting themselves off the hook from mistakes 416 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 4: that they're making at the public's expense year after year 417 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 4: after year. That's really what we're seeing and. 418 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: Buying Woody Allen ten thousand dollars worth of underwear. I 419 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: think it's like, you know, I liked Woody Allen, I 420 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: knew Woody Allen, and I think that we should all 421 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: be done with Woody Allen now because it is done. 422 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: There's no coming back from and Son ye like, there's 423 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: no coming back from that. 424 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 3: There are people to hear that. I just I have 425 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 3: to ask myself, you know. 426 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 4: I sometimes had this moment in interviews when I'm particularly 427 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 4: writing about very rich people who get into big trouble, 428 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 4: which is a pattern that I write about a lot. Yeah, 429 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 4: And the single most important question in these moments is 430 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 4: always the same, which is, what in God's name possessed you? Like, 431 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 4: in what conceivable world did you think this was okay? 432 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 4: And I kind of feel like that's the question being 433 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 4: posed to an entire class of Americans right now, and honestly, 434 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 4: to be more precise about it, the Brits are asking 435 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 4: that question much more effectively of their own ruling class 436 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 4: than we are in ours. And I'd like to see a. 437 00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 3: Little more saying. 438 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: And the king, right, the King of England is now 439 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: saying that he would like to see accountability for his brother. 440 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: Donald Trump refuses to even look at Howard Lutneck, but 441 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: the King of England is saying he would like to 442 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: see accountability for his brother. Whatever that looks like. 443 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 4: This is a pattern that I have to say does 444 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 4: not usually end particularly well for the oligarchs. One of 445 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 4: the things that you see in history is what's known 446 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 4: as autocratic backfire, which is there is like a point, 447 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 4: it's like a tripwire with the public where at a 448 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 4: certain point the amount of abuse and of entrenchment of 449 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 4: their own money and power and privilege just passes some 450 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 4: point that the public can't bear. I think we're seeing 451 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 4: it in political terms in our country right now with 452 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 4: the collapse of Donald Trump's support. This is autocratic backfire 453 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 4: in action right now. 454 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: Evan, I am you know. I know it's a good 455 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: interview because I have a bunch of notes. 456 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 3: I love chatting with you, Molly. 457 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 4: We should do it, yeah, whenever the nation is collapsing, which. 458 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: Yes, which luckily will probably be for at least another year. 459 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: Las. 460 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, Evan. 461 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 3: My pleasure. Great to chat with you. 462 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: Asha Rangappa is a former FBI special agent, lawyer, and 463 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: editor at Just Security. Welcome to Fast Politics, Asha, thanks 464 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: for having me. Molly, I'm so excited. I wanted to 465 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: have you because I wanted to talk about everything that 466 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: is going on with Ebstein, and also like I feel 467 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: like you're an expert on a number of the things 468 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: that are happening right now. So first tell us a 469 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: little bit about what your role in government was. 470 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 5: I was an FBI special agent. I specialized in counterintelligence investigations. 471 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 5: I worked in the New York Division. 472 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 1: Of the FBI. 473 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 5: I am also a lawyer, though I you know, did 474 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 5: clerk for a federal judge. 475 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: I worked during law school at the US Attorney's Office. 476 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 5: I have, like you know, other government experience, but the 477 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 5: FBI is sort of. 478 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: The central one. And this is why I wanted you 479 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: here because the two big stories right now and the 480 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: one that I am deeply obsessed with, and that's one 481 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: I really want to talk about. But then I also 482 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: want to talk about Trump dismantling the federal government, which 483 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: I assume as someone who worked in the federal government, 484 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: you can attest to. But the first story is the 485 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: Epstein Files. So I want you to explain to us 486 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: a little bit about what you think went wrong as 487 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: someone who worked for the FBI, who knows how a 488 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: case like this would get brought because you know, when 489 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: you look to the files, you see the women prosecutors 490 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 1: behave very differently than the male prosecutors, and there really 491 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: is a gender situation that we see play out. But 492 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: I would love you to just talk about that case 493 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: and what you think went wrong. 494 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 5: So I think it's hard to talk about the Epstein 495 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 5: Files as a single case because I think what we're 496 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 5: seeing is coming from a lot of different places, right, 497 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 5: and so I kind of think of it as there 498 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 5: being at least four discrete buckets. So the first bucket 499 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 5: is this investigation that happened in two thousand. 500 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: And seven down in Florida. 501 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 5: The draft indictment, yes, exactly, and that was two Palm 502 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 5: Beach detectives who had originally taken their case to a 503 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 5: state prosecutor, weren't really happy with how that was being 504 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 5: handled and so went to the FBI. It appears that 505 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 5: there was a relatively robust investigation. There was a line 506 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 5: prosecutor who was on that case. There was a draft 507 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 5: indictment I believe sixty counts that was presented to alex Acosta. 508 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: Then it went off the rails. 509 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 5: It goes off the rails, and then there was this 510 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 5: whole it's not even a plea deal. It was a 511 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 5: non prosecution agreement that basically allowed him to plead guilty 512 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 5: to a state charge, et cetera, and even really serve 513 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 5: The second bucket, I would say, is the OIG investigation 514 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 5: within the Justice Department of that whole debacle. 515 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: And they went through and. 516 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 5: They interviewed all, you know, the prosecutors, the agents to 517 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 5: try to unpack what happened. And there's not really a 518 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 5: satisfactory explanation for why this went off the roads, except 519 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 5: for Alexacosta has some off site meeting with Epstein's lawyers 520 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 5: and then puts a cabash on the investigation. Then fast 521 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 5: forward to twenty nineteen, there's the Southern District of New 522 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 5: York investigation that results in the arrest of Epstein, then 523 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 5: of course he kills himself in jail, and then the 524 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 5: subsequent arrest of Glen Maxwell, also from in the Southern 525 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 5: District of New York, where she gets arrested and she 526 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 5: gets prosecuted and convicted. So what I find really interesting 527 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 5: about these files is, you know, you see like, for example, 528 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 5: all these emails to Epstein, and like where were these 529 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 5: coming from? Which of these buck's was did this surface in? 530 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 5: Was it an active investigation at that? But do you 531 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 5: know what I'm saying, Like, it's really hard to know 532 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 5: right now, which is kind of why. You know, probably 533 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 5: what you would need, I think is like the prosecutors 534 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 5: who handled these three cases like on the ground, like 535 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 5: to hear from them, like I think you would get 536 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 5: a much better picture like the one in Florida from 537 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 5: two thousand and seven, the ones in Southern District of 538 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 5: New York, because I think, you know, as far as 539 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 5: I can tell, they were being aggressive, So it's hard 540 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 5: for me to believe that they would on their own 541 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 5: have overlooked things, so where and then they can maybe 542 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 5: contextualize where all of these other things are coming in. 543 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: So that gets to the question that I had, which 544 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: is like, clearly this DOJ does not want to provide 545 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: evidence or accountability because we know members of Congress are 546 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: already saying that what they've seen is still redacted. A 547 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: lot of the files in the DJ where they were 548 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: going to see them are filled with reactions, so that 549 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: means they are not able to see the unredacted files. 550 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: And remember the law was set up so that BONDI 551 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: was going to have to talk through each of the 552 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: reactions or someone was going to have to explain reactions. 553 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: So obviously none of that is happening. So the question is, 554 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: and this is like my bigger, more important question, is 555 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: what would it look like if you wanted accountability for 556 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: the co conspirators? Right that we know I'm Thomas Massey 557 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: says he has a list of two hundred and twenty 558 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: five names of people who the victims have ideed. You 559 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: have women who have been subjected to sexual crimes by 560 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: these men, and a lot of these women, I mean, 561 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: we have more than a thousand victims, so you're going 562 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: to have four or five or twenty or thirty women 563 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: testifying that they've all been sexually assaulted or raped by 564 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: these specific men. So why can't there be prosecutions, Why 565 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: can't there be testimony? Why isn't there like a larger hearing? 566 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I just don't understand why we keep hitting 567 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: a wall with this stuff. 568 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 5: First, I think the two things can be true. That 569 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 5: you can believe these women and that these people were implicated, 570 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 5: but that there may not be enough evidence to either 571 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 5: charge or actually convict them of a crime. Because if 572 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 5: what you have is first only the testimony of these 573 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 5: witnesses without any corroborating evidence, Like, let's first just imagine 574 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 5: that this is a normally functioning justice department, So we're 575 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 5: setting aside, this is Pambodani's justice department. The justice department 576 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 5: isn't going to bring charges unless it knows it can 577 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 5: win the case, which means that you have to be 578 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 5: able to charge something that is, you know, still within 579 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 5: the statute of limitations number one, number two, there is 580 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 5: enough evidence to persuade a jury that it can be 581 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 5: one beyond a reasonable doubt. And the prosecutors that I've 582 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 5: talked to who have done sex trafficking crimes. I mean, 583 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 5: they're notoriously difficult for these reasons, right, is that there's 584 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 5: often difficulty and you know, even testimony in terms of 585 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 5: memory finding, corroborating evidence and all this stuff. 586 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: Right, But just for example, like there's one guy who 587 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: there were at least ten witnesses of women who have 588 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: had including in the draft indictment, who have had experiences 589 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: with him, Like, there's no way to build a case 590 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: from that. I don't want to say there's no way. 591 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 5: I would probably talk to somebody who has done these 592 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 5: cases because they'll know the weeds. But I think it 593 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 5: would be really hard, Molly, Like, I think even if 594 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 5: you had ten people going on and saying this guy 595 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 5: really like, I think you always need some sort of 596 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 5: corroborating evidence right to make they would want. The last 597 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 5: thing you want to do is bring a case and 598 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 5: then have the person not be convicted, Like then they're 599 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 5: sort of weirdly exonerated. And I think that brings me 600 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 5: to a second point is I personally, and I've written 601 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 5: a couple of subtec posts on this, that we get 602 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 5: very overly fixated on criminal accountability. And I get it. 603 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 5: You know, nobody wants to see a sexual predator in 604 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 5: an orange jumps suit more than I do. But we 605 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 5: sometimes act as though that is the only way there 606 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 5: is accountability. 607 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: Right, And that's a good point. Will you talk about 608 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: that more. 609 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, The latest substec piece I wrote was about you know, 610 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 5: there's actually an entire category of criminal punishment called shame sanctions, 611 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 5: where a part of what the punishment is is that 612 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 5: you expose the. 613 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: Person's wrongdoing to the public. 614 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 5: You know, sex offender registries are kind of something like this, 615 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 5: and then you know there's other ways they do this 616 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 5: for DUI, you know, people, et cetera. 617 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: But I mean that's how I. 618 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 5: See what the purpose of the Epstein files is, which 619 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 5: is it may be that these people have not committed 620 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 5: a crime, can't be charged with a crime, but that's 621 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 5: kind of actually that's exactly why they should be released, 622 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:53,959 Speaker 5: exactly because in many ways, the social opprobrium is what 623 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 5: is going to create some accountability. And we have seen this, Molly. 624 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 5: We saw this with Larry Summers. Like Larry summers exchanges 625 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 5: with Epstein were not a crime. 626 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: They weren't. 627 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 5: They were gross and you know, obviously misogynistic. That cost 628 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 5: him his status and position at Harvard. That's account I mean, 629 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 5: there is some accountability there, right, Like he's not in 630 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 5: an orange jumpsuit, but there was some cost to him. 631 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 5: Brad Karp, who was the chairman of Paul Weiss, you know, 632 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 5: there were communications between him and Epstein. He's had to 633 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 5: step down from this top position at this law firm. 634 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 5: So I do think that we should think about accountability 635 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 5: more broadly. 636 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: I just feel like these women have like one of 637 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: the farmer's sisters has a brain tumorrow and is dying. 638 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: Virginia killed herself. Maybe these women have had their lives ruined, 639 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: and like when I talked to Julie K. Brown about 640 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: when she went back into this case, she talked about 641 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: how she had discovered these women on Facebook and seen 642 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: that their lives they were just the broken people whose 643 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: lives have been completely ruined by the two years of 644 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: abuse they had endured from Jeffrey Epstein so they could 645 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: buy new sneakers. So in my mind, I just don't 646 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: understand how it's like the large I mean, this is 647 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: probably the largest sex trafficking crime in American history, right 648 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: with more than a thousand women. I mean, maybe there's 649 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: some other one that's worse, but hopefully not. And like 650 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: the people involved, their names are redacted. You know, the 651 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: men involved, their names are redacted. We know that there 652 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: are tens of thousands of videos, hours of videos and 653 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: photographs because this was a blackmail scheme as much as 654 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: it was anything. So like they can watch those videos 655 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: and see who is in them. I mean, isn't that proof. 656 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 5: I don't think any of us, being on the outside 657 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 5: can get to these answers. Like I said, I really 658 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 5: think that people that have the answers are the line attorneys. 659 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 5: Why not have the US attorney who was on the 660 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 5: ground in Miami testify. You know, Mare and Comy was 661 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 5: the lead prosecutor for Glenn Maxwell. 662 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: She was fired. 663 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 5: Bring her in because they'll be able to say, yeah, 664 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 5: we saw all of these leads, we followed up, or 665 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 5: we were told not to pursue it, you know, whatever 666 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 5: it is, or we never saw this. This didn't come 667 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 5: in as a part of our case. It came in 668 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 5: somewhere else. But where did it come in and who's 669 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 5: who's responsible? In other words, I think that if I 670 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 5: were looking at this, I would approach this in itself 671 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 5: as an investigation, right, like each of these documents, like who's. 672 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: Desk did this land on? And then what did they 673 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: do with it? Like where did that happen? 674 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,919 Speaker 5: Like that's the only way you can understand why there 675 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 5: was nothing done, because either somebody didn't see it either, 676 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 5: or somebody saw it and looked into it and they 677 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 5: just you know, there was some legal impediment to moving forward, 678 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 5: or they move forward and somebody told them to stop. 679 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 5: Like those kind of are the three main things that 680 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 5: I can think of, and so you kind of have 681 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 5: to start at ground zero. So I really think congressional 682 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 5: hearings are sort of the way to do that at 683 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 5: this point. 684 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to be like annoying about this, because I 685 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: know there's a sense with what we do that we 686 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: should always sort of not ask stupid questions like this. 687 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: It's not a stupid question, you know. I just think 688 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: to myself, this is this crime that has just gone 689 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: on and on, and the only time we've ever gotten 690 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: anything like accountability for these women has been when a 691 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 1: female journalist like Julie K. Brown. I mean, this would 692 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,479 Speaker 1: never have gotten reopened had it not been for her. 693 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Congress is going to do hearings 694 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 1: about this. I'm so struck by his failure of accountability 695 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: on every which way. 696 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, I mean, this is a complete breakdown of 697 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 5: the system, right. But I think the problem is is 698 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 5: that there's what's being obscured is any investigation into where 699 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 5: that breakdown occurred. Like I said, you have the OIG 700 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 5: investigation at least of the Miami case. You can read 701 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 5: that it's online. Actually, unless they took it down. Frankly, 702 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 5: it kind of points the finger at alex Acosta. It's 703 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 5: unbelievable to me that he's now like like he is 704 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 5: doing fine. 705 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you say a little more about that. 706 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 5: It was just highly irregular and there's no I mean, 707 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 5: even the OIG report, as far as I guess hell, 708 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 5: could find no discernible reason that it did not follow 709 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 5: the normal protocol like it you know, things were being 710 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 5: handled in ways that never had been handled that way before. 711 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 5: You know, he did go and testify in front of 712 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 5: Congress back in October, I think, and he just doubled down. 713 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: So you need to bring him back and get him 714 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,959 Speaker 1: to testify, I think. 715 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 5: So, I think somebody needs to really get to the 716 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 5: bottom of who was he meeting with off site, what 717 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 5: pressure was brought to bear. I mean, when I read 718 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 5: between the lines of that, there's obviously you know, and 719 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 5: I talked with people we know who are former federal 720 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 5: prosecutors who you know, talk all the time on TV 721 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 5: at the time when the you know, news was coming 722 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 5: out about that Loig investigation, and I was I reached 723 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 5: out and I was like, how would this kind of 724 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 5: agreement ever get drafted? And all of them were like, 725 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 5: I've never seen this language before where you immunize all 726 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 5: co conspirators, whether they're known or unknown to the office. 727 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just that makes no sense. 728 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 5: But you know, it's interesting Mollie that I'm you know, 729 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 5: I'm writing this book on complicity and moral courage, and 730 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 5: although this the Epstein case is getting, you know, is 731 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 5: obviously in the forefront, which it should be, you know, 732 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 5: I'm looking into case studies like Purdue Pharma, same shit 733 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 5: was happening there, where US attorneys were being told not 734 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 5: to pursue the case. So I think it's sort of 735 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 5: like they are the people who can answer where the 736 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 5: pressure is coming from. And I suspect there's pressure coming 737 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 5: from powerful people outside the Justice Department that are either 738 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 5: using carrots or sticks because a lot of times, and 739 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 5: at least in Purdue Pharma for example, one of the 740 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 5: things that was happening is they would entice people inside 741 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 5: the system with jobs outside the system that would be 742 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 5: very lucrative. This also happened in Larry Nasser's case, where 743 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 5: FBI agents who the FBI supervisor who was overseeing the 744 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 5: Larry Naster case was being dangled with a job at 745 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 5: the US Olympic Committee. You know what I'm saying, So like, 746 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 5: I think we have to get to those kinds of 747 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 5: things that are not going to be a parent from 748 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 5: just a document dump. 749 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: I mean it is also such a metaphor for the 750 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 1: Trump administration because you see powerful people having a different 751 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: set of rules for them than everyone else. So it 752 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: is just really dark. Thank you, Asha, You're welcome. 753 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 5: I'm sorry, and you know, I just want to emphasize 754 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 5: you're not asking any stupid questions. And I'm sure people 755 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 5: are annoyed with me listening to this because they're like, 756 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 5: you're not telling you know, you're telling us nothing can 757 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 5: be done. 758 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: I'm not saying nothing can be done. 759 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 5: I'm saying that we need to think beyond criminal charges, 760 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 5: right well, and a lot this stuff there are statutes, right, Yeah, 761 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 5: the criminal justice system is actually a very narrow form 762 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 5: of accountability. And I think this is true for even 763 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 5: when we look ahead to beyond the Trump administration. We 764 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,879 Speaker 5: just have an our idea that the only thing that's 765 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 5: going to ever heal all of this to send people 766 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 5: to jail. I'm totally for that, but I think we 767 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 5: need to be prepared that that might not be an 768 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 5: option for everyone involved, and so we need to really 769 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 5: think about what accountability looks like much more broadly. 770 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Asha, no Mo Jesse Cannon Malli. 771 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 2: The US has slipped to its lowest ever rank in 772 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 2: the Global Corruption Index. What could have caused that? 773 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: No, I don't know, Probably Nancy Pelosi. Oh, yes, Donald J. 774 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,240 Speaker 1: Trump is doing corruption, and he's doing it much much 775 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: worse than he used to. By the way, we were 776 00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: tied with the Bahamas, but beaten by Lithuania, Barbados and Uruguoy. 777 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't. 778 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 2: You know. 779 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: You have a fucking elect a criminal, have a crime scene. 780 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: This is where we are. It is crushingly dark moment 781 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: in American life, and we're seeing it everywhere. We're seeing corruption. 782 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: You know, the Wall Street Journal had this really good 783 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: reporting about this Trump kids doing crypto scams. Eric and 784 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,959 Speaker 1: Don Junior and Baron all involved in a crypto rug pull. 785 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,399 Speaker 1: I mean, we're going to live like this until Americans 786 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: decide that they don't want to live like this. 787 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 2: Agreed. 788 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 789 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 790 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 791 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 792 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,240 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.