1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 2: Wilson. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: We talked about Villa's de Vechi week. 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, two of it. 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: There were a couple things that I didn't include. The 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: episode ran a little bit shorter than usual, and I 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: had had these things in and I pulled them out. 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: One is a thing that I didn't pull out. It's 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: just a random thing. 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: But I just could not substantiate them. And they were 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: odd enough that I would have felt weird even trying 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: to I mean just trying to talk around them. I 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: was like, surely there should be a record of this, 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: Like it just became a weird thing. 17 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 18 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: One was that allegedly there was actually a fire there 19 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: at some point. I don't know if this is true. 20 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: I never found any news stories about it. 21 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: Nothing. 22 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: And the reason why I was like, I don't know 23 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: that this is accurate is that when you do look 24 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: at pictures, I haven't seen anywhere it looks like there's 25 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: charring or you know, fire damage that you would normally see. 26 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: It's possible there is, and I just haven't seen pictures 27 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: but I just do not know. The other was that 28 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: there was a report that the reason the government finally 29 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: took some steps to try to close the site with 30 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: like wire fencing and whatever is that somebody had actually 31 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: fallen when the upper floor caved in because the upper 32 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: floor is not there anymore, and that they were injured 33 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: and that's why. But I also could not find any 34 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: substantiation of that one, although that would certainly make sense 35 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: as a catalyst to take steps, but it also could 36 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: have just been that they got around to it on 37 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: their list of things to think about. I don't know. Yeah, 38 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: I understand the it is to want to look at 39 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: a place that is overgrown and was once beautiful and 40 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: is now a mess to make up ghost stories about it, 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: Sure I do, But I really think, yeah, these ones 42 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: are unfounded. Yeah, I'm sorry, most haunted house in Italy. 43 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: I don't believe you are. When the like the origin 44 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: story of the ghosts is apparently just not really a thing, 45 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: that doesn't make it a little weird. Yeah, ironically there 46 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: is no I found zero mention of the ghost of 47 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: Sidoli being there, which would have made more sense, sure 48 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: since he was the architect that was there working. Yeah, 49 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: I have also had the experience of trying to research 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: something for the show, having like one set of information 51 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: of what's available in English, and then finding the Wikipedia 52 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: page for the country where that place is and looking 53 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: at it out of curiosity and sometimes finding wildly different 54 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: information and often more just the amount of information is 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: much different, which is not I mean, it's not surprising 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: that a person who was really important to the history 57 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: of a particular place that is not the United States 58 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: where we live, and is also not a place that 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: has a lot of cultural and historical ties to the 60 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: United States. Right, Totally reasonable and normal for there to 61 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: be way more information about that person in that other 62 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: place than here. 63 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: Right. 64 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: But occasionally when this happens, I'll like see the Wikipedia 65 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: page in this other place, and I'll do the same thing. 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: I'll look at it and I will like translated, just 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: to be out of curiout like what does it say? 68 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: How does it compare? And occasionally go, yeah, this is 69 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: this is very different, and trying to sort of figure. 70 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: Out where where where the divergence. 71 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: Happened in like the factual yeah, the like where where 72 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: did that come from? Not so much where did the 73 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: ghost stories come from? But like where did this completely 74 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: different story about a murder arise? Right, And this is 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: a case where like there, I feel like places like 76 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: this have this unique problem in terms of finding the 77 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: root of that because, especially if they are in a 78 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: foreign country from where native English speakers live, visitors will 79 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,559 Speaker 1: go there and locals will tell them stories to goad 80 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: them on that then get repeated as though they are fact, 81 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: while those locals are probably snickering at the Dindong tourists 82 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: who bought everything hook line and sinker, and so it 83 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: becomes trickier to be like, okay, but then there are 84 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: also allegedly locals that believe it's haunted, so right, yeah, well, 85 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: and I mean I've had that experience in the United States. 86 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: We went on a. 87 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,119 Speaker 1: Ghost tour one time in New Orleans that I feel 88 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: like that ghost tour was a lot grounded in reality 89 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: most of the time. Yeah, but there were a couple 90 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: of particular stories that after we returned to our respective 91 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: homes from our visit to New Orleans, I was like, 92 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: that would be a great podcast episode, and I went 93 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: to look it up and I was like, oh no, 94 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: that story was made up, saying but I can't even 95 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: find you know, an origin point for something that could 96 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: have been distorted into that story. Yeah, I also that 97 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: you said in the episode, like the like Wikipedia articles 98 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: are not a source that we use for the show. 99 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: One of the things that I do on Wikipedia sometimes 100 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: is scroll immediately to the bottom of the article to see. 101 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: If there are books that I am not aware of. 102 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: Because as the quality of search engine results has gotten 103 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: worse and more driven by ads and whatnot, sometimes I 104 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: will find a reference to the book in the source 105 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: list of a Wikipedia article that I might not have 106 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: found otherwise. Same do it all the time. I am 107 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: now using a plugin for Chrome that just strips out 108 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: all of the AI summaries and AD links, which is 109 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: very helpful, but still, like the results themselves sometimes are 110 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: less helpful than they used to be. In my personal life, 111 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: I use Wikipedia for stuff like looking at the list 112 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: of TV episodes from specific television shows when I'm trying 113 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: to figure out, like, where did I leave off watching this? 114 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: My watch history has gotten cleared somehow, that kind of thing, 115 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: anything that has a fandom association with it. A lot 116 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: of times the Wikipedia page will be incredibly robust about 117 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: like that particular entertainment property or whatever. Very helpful anyway. 118 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: Wikipedia has uses, is what I'm saying. Yeah, even if 119 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: those uses are not you know, researching episodes of the show. 120 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not anti Wikipedia at all. 121 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: We just always we try to do primary sources as 122 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: often as possible, right, and then you go to secondaries, etc. 123 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: And we've always said, like on the Halloween episodes, especially 124 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: when you're talking about paranormal things or haunting stories, we're 125 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: not as hardcore about those rules. But this one, even so, 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: I was like, I literally took this from a Wikipedia 127 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: article and I wanted transparency about it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, 128 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: we'll talk about a depressing thing, oh sort of, and 129 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: then a funny thing, Okay. I have looking at pictures 130 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: of places that are dilapidated Holmes is very melancholy for me. Yeah, 131 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: because on the one hand, I'm fascinated and it's like, oh, spookyky, 132 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: And on the other I'm like, it happens less with 133 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: smaller or it happens less with big palatial homes like 134 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: this and more with smaller homes. But I just like, 135 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's that I'm too empathetic about 136 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and I'm like, this was a place 137 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: that somebody loved once and they felt like this was 138 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: their special place and their like, you know, their hopes 139 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: and dreams were into this space and now it's just junk. 140 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: And I find that very depressing. Yeah, because I am 141 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: sentimental about inanimate objects. It happens all the time. Yeah, listen, 142 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: I'll I see one sad shoe in the road, and 143 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: I'm sad because like, where is the other shoe? What 144 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: happened here? That's me. Here's the funny thing. I was 145 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: looking at pictures from inside Villadeveki in Greece, which again 146 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: you are allowed to go into and you can buy 147 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: tickets to go visit, but it also does have a 148 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: lot of graffiti. But I don't know why. It cracked 149 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: me up. While I was looking at these pictures, somebody 150 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: had very very carefully spray painted the URL for their SoundCloud. 151 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: Oh that's hilarious. And I'm like, on the one hand, 152 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, honey, do you think people are like taking 153 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: this down or like taking a picture to go visit 154 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: your SoundCloud because you did a graffiti. But then on 155 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: the other hand, I'm like, is this very astute because 156 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: they know this is a place that's photographed a lot Yeah, 157 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: that presumably those photos are going online and now everyone 158 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: will know about their SoundCloud. 159 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 160 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: I didn't go to their SoundCloud site, but I did 161 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: think it was funny. I'm waiting for the time there's 162 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: like a graffiti QR code. I'm sure someone's done it 163 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: already for the stencil, but it seems like that would 164 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: be very arduous. You got to get out your cricket 165 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: and custom cut that biz. But I'm waiting. I'm waiting. 166 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: The age is coming. Sound cloud graffiti. I don't know 167 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: why that cracked me up. To very carefully spray paint 168 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: an entire url is very funny to me. That's just 169 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: inherently hilarious. That's like the nerdiest graffiti artist of all time. 170 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: Are you going out tagging? Yeah, let me make sure 171 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: I spell check it first, Like, yeah, I love everything 172 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: about it. Listen, we need our giggles where we can 173 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: get them. We talked about the Hammersmith Ghost murder this week. 174 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: We did, and I stopped you as we were recording 175 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: because you were about to be real Ti Rady in 176 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: a perfectly valid way about the language of the law 177 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: that allows for the nuance of mistaken understanding. 178 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, which I. 179 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: Completely agree with, although I feel like in Great Britain 180 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: it may work differently than it does here. Right, So 181 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: we live in the United States. I don't know why 182 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: the word United States didn't want to just come out 183 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: of my mouth just then, but we live in the 184 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: United States, so we like that's the context we're operating 185 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: out of. But when I was reading that whole, all 186 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: the legal language, it made me super angry because the 187 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: basic idea of what that boiled down to is that 188 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: if a person believes that someone else is a threat, 189 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 1: even if that is an unreasonable belief, if they were 190 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: genuinely laboring under that unreasonable belief, can use it as 191 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: a defense. So if you think wildly with no basis 192 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: that someone is a threat to you, and you shoot 193 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: and kill them, you can still use that thinking they 194 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 1: were a threat as a defense even though it was unreasonable. 195 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: And we have similar laws in parts of the United States. 196 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: And when the United States, we are also living in 197 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: a society that for centuries spread racist misinformation about really 198 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: anyone who was not white, but especially about black people, 199 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: and very especially about black men, presenting black men as 200 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: uniquely dangerous to everyone else, and that has been used 201 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: as a defense so often in people murdering unarmed black 202 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: people in particular, also unarmed people of other races, saying well, 203 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: I thought that this person was dangerous, right, and I 204 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: don't think that is a good defense. I do think 205 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: that it is incumbent on all of us not to 206 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: kill one another. And so having to read this language 207 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: that was like, oh, yeah, this is actually fine, if 208 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: not fine, but like this is appropriate to use as 209 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: a defense, I was like, no, I think if you 210 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: are under the absolute unfounded misapprehension that someone is threatening 211 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: you and you kill them because you're scared, that's not 212 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: a good defense. I think I agree with you one 213 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: hundred percent. I think, and I could be wrong. So 214 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: any of our listeners from Britain who want to set 215 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: the record straight, the way that it is handled in 216 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: courts there is different than here insofar as there has 217 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: to be enough evidence that it would be reasonable for 218 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: them to have come to that conclusion, you know what 219 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean. They can't just say this person looked scary 220 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: and they happened to be in my yard, so I 221 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: got scared and shot them. There has to be and 222 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: he did this and this and this, and there has 223 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: to be evidence behind it. Yeah, you know, in that case, 224 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: that nineteen eighty three case, there's all the stuff about 225 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: like that guy told me he was a police officer, 226 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: but then he couldn't produce any credentials that proved that, right, 227 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: and he you know, he obviously was lying to some degree, 228 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: which kind of fed the problem that he was just 229 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: that he was in fact doing what you're talking about, 230 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: going after a young black kid, that he was doing 231 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: that kind of profiling wrong thing. 232 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: So it's I. 233 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: Think there is more room for that kind of discussion 234 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: and nuance in courts in Britain to establish a reasonable 235 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: like that, yes, a reasonable person might think this was 236 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: the situation versus the way it is often handled here, 237 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: where you just have to say they were on my 238 00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: property and I was scared. 239 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 240 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: Well, And part of my frustration here is that, like, 241 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: because of the centuries of propaganda that has been steeped 242 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: throughout society in the United States, it's possible to build 243 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: an incredibly racist argument that someone was reasonable in feeling 244 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: that they were threatened, right, which is like just a 245 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: whole other. 246 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: Layer of it. 247 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: The definition is really like how you perceive reasonability, I 248 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: think at that point, Yeah, not to make light of it. 249 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: But I really do think, like what is considered reasonable 250 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: to some people, it's not reasonable to us writers, and 251 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: I think some municipalities are a little more stringent in 252 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: their assessment of that. 253 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 254 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, that was my my tirade, I guess. Yeah, 255 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: it is wild to me in this that. I mean, 256 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: it kind of speaks in this story to how well 257 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: liked Francis Smith was then even the victim of his 258 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: accidental shootings, family members were like, no, yeah, uh, he 259 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: really was purposely taking this dumb risk. Yeah, which is interesting. 260 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: That kind of feeds into some like similar similar things 261 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: that continue to happen today that it's like taking us, 262 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, an unwise risk is not grounds for being 263 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: summarily executed in the street. 264 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: No, not at all, not at all, not at all. 265 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is like a point that was made in 266 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: the trial was that like even if he had been 267 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: on purpose pretending to be a ghost. 268 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: That's not something you kill somebody over. Yeah. 269 00:16:46,000 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a very interesting case. I'm so fascinated 270 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: by scenarios as evidenced this year maybe of like mass 271 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: hysteria and like group fear, that this one was very 272 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: interesting to me, Like where an entire community can get 273 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: so heightened where but what's really fun. Fun is not 274 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: the right word because it does involve a murder. But 275 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: what's really really interesting is how Hammersmith had enough people 276 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: that were really amped up over this that they were 277 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: sending you know, people were going out and hunting patrols 278 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: are happening, and at the same time, like London was like, 279 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: oh Hammersmith, I mean, those dang dongs think they're ghostly. 280 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: It's an interesting thing in like cultural pockets within larger 281 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: metro municipalities that just have their own beliefs or you know, 282 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: they get caught up in the thing. 283 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, now we have that, but. 284 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: It's all segregated down into communities online, Right's right? Yeah 285 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: to me? If you are in this community that has 286 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: been gripped by the possibility that there is a ghost, 287 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: and it seems likely that, if not a ghost, there 288 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 1: is at least someone all in white who has been 289 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: scaring people on purpose, and the way such things are 290 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: handled is often with community patrols. It's reasonable to me 291 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: for the community patrol to question that person. Ye, well, yeah, 292 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: I question the guy that happens to be out at 293 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: night in all in all white clothes, the fact that 294 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: it jumped immediately to shooting him. I'm like, I don't 295 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: fully follow Well, he. 296 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: Called out for him twice and he didn't answer. 297 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, and to me, that's still not a reason to shoot. 298 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: Well. No, but like, I mean, I think in that 299 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: moment of fear. 300 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, again, keeping in mind that this was two hundred 301 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: years ago, when our understanding of the world was a 302 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: bit different. Yeah, I can see we're in that moment 303 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: of fear. Somebody might do that. I'm not happy about it. 304 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: I don't want that to happen. But I also am 305 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: kind of one of those people that's like, you know what, 306 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: this man had the pants scared off of him, and 307 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: he reacted in a way that was not great but 308 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: is understandable, particularly because he did say like, hey, who 309 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: are you and Thomas didn't want to reply, and the 310 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: fact we kind of glossed through it. But that in 311 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: that testimony that his mother in law gave about his 312 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: previous altercation with someone thinking he was a ghost, his 313 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: response was not oh, no, I'm so sorry. It didn't 314 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: even occur to me that I would look like a ghost. 315 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: It was I'm gonna punch you in the head. Like, clearly. 316 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: He was not participating in trying to ease anybody's minds 317 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: about the situation. He sure sure, Like that is a 318 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: man that seems all ready for five Like, oh my gosh, 319 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: I thought you were a ghost. Really, I will punch you, 320 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: Like what is the that's not a logical reaction either, rights, 321 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: it's a lot of problems. Yeah, yeah, don't punch people. 322 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: Don't shoot people, is the moral of the story. Yeah, 323 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: don't do it. At least don't punch people for wearing 324 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: white work clothes at night. Well, he was going to 325 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: punch the guy for thinking he was, you know, a ghost, 326 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: even though he yeah, yeah, so you don't everybody be cool? 327 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 1: Which is the problem is that we don't. We live 328 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: in a world where everybody can't be cool and there's 329 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: guns cool, just mind your mind your business. We could 330 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: all just be hanging out having snacks, trick or treating. 331 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: I don't know. 332 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is germane here is 333 00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: that Graham the shoemaker came forward. Nobody believed him because 334 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: they didn't want to. There may have been a perception 335 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: that he because he did it the day after the sentencing, 336 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: that he was trying to help mitigate the final outcome 337 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: for Francis Smith, but also because people didn't want to. 338 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that he faced no repercussions whatsoever, 339 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: even though I mean it sounds like, according to a 340 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: lot of accounts, he was out there not just scaring 341 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: people but touching them in ways that might be considered assaultive. 342 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: Oh you know what I mean, Like, yeah, he's. 343 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: Putting his hands around somebody. If he's putting his arms 344 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: around someone, if he's putting his hands on someone's throat, 345 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: that would be considered assault in my book. Oh sure, 346 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: he didn't seem to face any repercussions for any of that. 347 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: So the whole thing has problems. That's annoying. There's layers 348 00:21:54,920 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: of things. Everybody be cool. So this Halloween, I hope 349 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: that you have a wonderful celebration, however you celebrate it. 350 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: If you do, I hope that you have so much 351 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: fun that involves no violence whatsoever, that no one assaults 352 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: you in any kind of way. With the one very 353 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: niche exception of if you pay to go into some 354 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: sort of haunted attraction where you know that you are 355 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: likely to be in some way assaulted by someone in 356 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: the spirit of fun that you have consented to. That's 357 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: my one, very niche exception. I hope that you have 358 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: a wonderful time and that you celebrate with delicious things, 359 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: maybe a yummy candy corn flavored cocktail. I'm working on 360 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: one right now I'm very excited about. And that as 361 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: you go into this weekend, you have some relaxation time. 362 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: Maybe you're going to recover from your Halloween revelry. If 363 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: you don't have time off, maybe you have to clean 364 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: up the yard after your Halloween decorations, or just be 365 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: like me, leave that stuff up your around. 366 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: It's great. 367 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: I hope everybody is kind to one another and that 368 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: we all take care of each other rather than an is, 369 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: rather than immediately jumping to violent reactions. We all need 370 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: each other to be cool. We will be right back 371 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: here tomorrow in a classic episode, and then on Monday 372 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: we will have something brand new. Stuff you missed in 373 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 374 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 375 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.