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Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Yeah, hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, to show about music, feuds and

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Speaker 1: beefs and long sustummering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve, I'm Jordan,

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Speaker 1: and we're about the venture to the land of frosted Tips,

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Speaker 1: Fedoras and Darren's dance prooves. I cannot wait. Today we

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Speaker 1: have a boy band brawl Backstreet Boys versus in Sync.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait. Yes, Yeah, this is gonna be interesting. Man. Like,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you were of the right age during

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Speaker 1: this era, you know, because you're you're a little bit

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Speaker 1: younger than me. Like, were you like in grade school

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Speaker 1: when these bands were really blown up? Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: like twelve probably during the height of this, which was

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Speaker 1: which is weird because it felt like you were expected

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Speaker 1: as like a boy on the playground. The like mercilessly

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Speaker 1: mocked both of these bands, but of course you like

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Speaker 1: privately did kind of enjoy some of some of the

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Speaker 1: bigger bops. Um, I gotta say, I'm kind of as

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Speaker 1: much as I'm excited to do this episode, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I've ever been more frightened to do one of

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Speaker 1: these because the fandoms are just really intense for both

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Speaker 1: of these groups, and I just have like a very

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Speaker 1: real fear that there are people in my life who

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Speaker 1: won't speak to me by the end of this episode.

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Speaker 1: And it's, uh, it's tearing at my heart. I gotta

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Speaker 1: say it really is. Well. Part of hosting a podcast

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Speaker 1: is having the courage to upset boy band fans. Jordan's

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Speaker 1: so we must adhere to professional responsibility. Yeah, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to get into this too. Like I was in

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Speaker 1: college during the boy band era. Uh so I was

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Speaker 1: listening to you know, Built a Spill and Neutral Milk

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Speaker 1: Hotel and all of these late nineties indie rock bands.

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Speaker 1: But I was also listening to the radio a lot

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Speaker 1: at that time, so I also know every word too.

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Speaker 1: I want it that way by heart, even though I

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Speaker 1: still don't understand what that song means. Oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: which I think we'll we'll, we'll, we'll get into that

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Speaker 1: in this episode. It's definitely a song written by Swedish

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Speaker 1: people who do not speak English as their first lass

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Speaker 1: pre Google Translate. In spite of all that, a brilliant

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Speaker 1: song and uh yeah, this is gonna be fun because

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Speaker 1: as cuddly as these groups are, there's actually like a

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Speaker 1: lot of genuine animosity and seediness in this story, which

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Speaker 1: is stuff I love, so I'm excited to get into it.

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Speaker 1: Let's dive into this mess alright. Two boy bands both

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Speaker 1: alike in Dignity and Fara Orlando, where we lay our scene.

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Speaker 1: The story really begins with Louke Pearlman, who's like really

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Speaker 1: one of the truly great music industry sleez bags, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just everything about him. He's like Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 1: meets Colonel Tom Parker. Oh my god. Yeah, no, that's

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Speaker 1: a great and great comparison. I mean, he's just I

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Speaker 1: think a J. McClean and the two thousand nine documentary

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Speaker 1: The lou Pearlman Story called him the best used car

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Speaker 1: salesman you've ever seen. And it's I mean you in

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Speaker 1: a way you almost feel bad for him because he

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Speaker 1: has kind of a sad backstory. He grew up in

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Speaker 1: Queens as like the chubby kid that wanted to know

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Speaker 1: and so he just kind of like started lying all

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Speaker 1: the time and telling tall tales just to kind of

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Speaker 1: make people like him, which you know, I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: such a childlike thing, but it's it's sad, and I guess.

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Speaker 1: He used to tell people, you know, one day, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be rich, and and when I'm rich, people

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Speaker 1: will like me. And half of that happened. At least

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Speaker 1: he did get very rich. I love the story of

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Speaker 1: how he got into the boy band business, which you know,

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Speaker 1: because he he did. I don't know if he made

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Speaker 1: his fortune, but he definitely got into the business world

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Speaker 1: by chartering airplanes. And uh. He once charted an airplane

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Speaker 1: for the new kids on the block, and he saw

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Speaker 1: much money they were making, and he couldn't believe that

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Speaker 1: these young kids were so rich. So he asked his uncle, who,

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Speaker 1: by the way, who was his uncle Jordan's was his cousin.

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Speaker 1: His cousin was art Garfuncle, And that part was true. Yes,

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Speaker 1: for habitual fibure, that's a pretty good, like real thing

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Speaker 1: to have. I was hoping it was his uncle. I

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Speaker 1: like the idea of uncle Artie, but it's cousin Artie.

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Speaker 1: I love how on this show, by the way, that

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Speaker 1: like previous stars of our episodes, always seemed to come

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Speaker 1: back in later episodes like an unexpected way. It's like

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Speaker 1: we just talked about Simon and Garfuncle, and now Garfuncle

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Speaker 1: rears his af road head once again. In a rival's episode,

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Speaker 1: Billy Joel comes up a lot to I feel like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, well that's just because we both are obsessed

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Speaker 1: with Billy Joel. But be that as it may. He

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Speaker 1: talks to our guar funcle Lou Pearlman, and he realizes

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Speaker 1: that this is a business that he that he wants

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Speaker 1: to be in, so he launches Transcontinental Records, and he

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Speaker 1: goes on this talent search like looking for the next

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Speaker 1: great boy band, and he ends up hooking up with

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Speaker 1: Johnny Wright, who was the manager for New Kids on

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Speaker 1: the Block, and he ends up forming the Backstreet Boys

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Speaker 1: and also forming in sync and pinning them against each other.

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Speaker 1: He amasses a ton of money, he becomes as rich

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Speaker 1: as he hoped to be as a kid, but then

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Speaker 1: it all sort of comes crashing down and he ends

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Speaker 1: up going to prison and actually dying in prison, which

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Speaker 1: is a terrible way to end up. But that is

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Speaker 1: getting ahead of ourselves. We should go back here and

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Speaker 1: get back to the forming of the Backstreet Boys, because

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty interesting story, isn't it. Oh yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's It almost sounds like some kind of weird like

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Speaker 1: summer camp thing. He placed an ad in the Orlando

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Speaker 1: Sentinel for for vocalists who wanted to form a pop group,

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Speaker 1: and I think A J. McClean came first, and he

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Speaker 1: auditioned for him in his living room, which I don't know,

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Speaker 1: makes me feel kind of weird, but and so the

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Speaker 1: other guys showed up and they rented a well, I

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Speaker 1: guess he owned a blimp hanger from his his transport business.

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Speaker 1: So he basically staged what he called boy band boot

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Speaker 1: camp and just had him practicing out there for like

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Speaker 1: six to eight hours a day. No a c just

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Speaker 1: long days of dance rehearsals and voice lessons. Like it

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Speaker 1: was quite a bonding experience. And then I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: they all lived together in in lose like Florida mansion

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Speaker 1: and uh rich and had like movie nice. There's there's

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Speaker 1: tings of like Michael Jackson in here. I feel like, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: One thing I forgot to mention is that lu Pruman

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Speaker 1: has been accused of sexual harassment even assault by boys

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Speaker 1: under his tutelage, essentially like groups that he's been involved

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Speaker 1: with putting together. I don't think there was any accusations

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Speaker 1: from the Backstreet Boys in Sync camps, but like what

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Speaker 1: didn't like members of LFO accuse him of sexual impropriety

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Speaker 1: and I think there was a guy from Otown that

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Speaker 1: also called him out at one point. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: Ashley Parker Angel from Otown also did. And yeah, there

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Speaker 1: was definitely some weirdness there. I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 1: if anything was ever proven, but but yeah, a bunch

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Speaker 1: of kids in this middle aged guy's house totally normal. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we got a j first. I believe Howie had auditioned

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Speaker 1: for Minuto, the the Latin boy band. Uh. Nick Carter

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Speaker 1: was like fourteen, and I think he turned down a

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Speaker 1: role in The Mickey Mouse Club to two for a

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Speaker 1: shot at this Kevin Richardson was working at Disney as

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Speaker 1: a Laddin, which I can totally see at the time,

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Speaker 1: and Kevin suggested his younger cousin, Brian Lttrelle, who I

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Speaker 1: guess got the call in the middle of a high

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Speaker 1: school history class, like someone called him the office, like

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Speaker 1: take a phone call, and it was his cousin beinging like, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you want to sing in this band? Like make

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Speaker 1: a ton of it's to make a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: and it's all right, shuts, you know, this is a

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Speaker 1: lot better than the you know, the Louisiana Purchase or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Learning a history class that day. So so again, is

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Speaker 1: it is it it fair to say that like Latrelle

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Speaker 1: was like the timber Lake of Backstreet Boys. It seems

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Speaker 1: like he was the de facto lead singer. I love

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Speaker 1: that group. Wasn't here or was it Carter? I always

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Speaker 1: thought it was Brian, But then when I would kind

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Speaker 1: of like run that by people because I was always

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Speaker 1: my gun, But no, no, it was either. It was

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Speaker 1: like a a huge argument for Nick. Also and also A

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Speaker 1: J made a strong showing too so and that's god,

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Speaker 1: we'll get in this later too. I always felt that

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Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys were much more of a band than in Sync.

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Speaker 1: Like in Sync, I always kind of got the impression

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Speaker 1: was sort of outshown by j T and j C

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Speaker 1: to a certain extent, But yeah, I know that they were.

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Speaker 1: They had their share of lead vocalists, but oh yeah

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Speaker 1: they were. They were definitely more of a unit, probably

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Speaker 1: because the guys in that band, I think, are a

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Speaker 1: little more faceless that the people in in Sync. I

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Speaker 1: mean there, you know, if they had had a justin

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Speaker 1: timber like type talent in the back Street Boys, he

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Speaker 1: probably would have, you know, you know, risen to the

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Speaker 1: top in the way that you know, the actual JT

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Speaker 1: rose to the top and in Sync. But at any rate,

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Speaker 1: what what what fascinates me about the Back Street Boys,

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Speaker 1: like early image was that they were conceived as like

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Speaker 1: this bad boy act. Like the first time that they

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Speaker 1: performed was in at Sea World Bad Boys. I feel like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like Sea World was like you know, the

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Speaker 1: CBG b of of of the boy band scene. You know,

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Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of boy bands like performed

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Speaker 1: at places like that earlier in their career, Like but yeah,

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Speaker 1: like they were wearing like, you know, like leather jackets

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Speaker 1: and at that time, and I think there was this

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Speaker 1: idea that they were going to be sort of like

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Speaker 1: the tough boy band. And it's very intriguing to me

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Speaker 1: because when I think about the Back Street Boys, especially

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Speaker 1: in comparison to in Sync, I think of them as

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Speaker 1: being the more adult band in spite of being called boys.

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Speaker 1: Like there's some thing very stagy in a way in

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Speaker 1: the way that they're presented. Like I just think of

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Speaker 1: them in like the all white suits from like the

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Speaker 1: I Want It that Way video, you know, whereas in

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Speaker 1: sinc always seemed like they were dressed more like kids

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Speaker 1: essentially a little edgier, and I don't want to say street. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they just like came off a pickup like basketball game

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Speaker 1: or something. They're all were like wearing basketball jerseys and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and like, yeah, they exactly they felt like the kids

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Speaker 1: next door. But like Luke Proman was, I think um

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Speaker 1: shrewd in the sense that, you know, as soon as

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Speaker 1: he got the Backstreet Boys going, he started thinking about

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Speaker 1: another group that could be a contrast. I think the

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Speaker 1: analogy that he uses that you know, if you have coke,

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Speaker 1: you also want to have pepsi. So as he's getting

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Speaker 1: the back Street Boys going, he's also getting in Sync

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Speaker 1: rolling as well, although he's not really telling the Backstreet

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Speaker 1: Boys about it, right, I mean, it's it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a sneaky thing, and that ends up being one of

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Speaker 1: the first real defining things of this rivalry. It's like,

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Speaker 1: what makes the Backstreet Boys, at least for a while

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Speaker 1: resent in sync? Oh yeah, it was crazy. I mean

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Speaker 1: he kept them. He had in sync on all like

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Speaker 1: business forms as under a code name. It was called

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Speaker 1: B five or something. In case An he went the

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Speaker 1: label like got Wind of it and then told the

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Speaker 1: Backstert Boys he was really really underhanded about it, and

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Speaker 1: then I guess he finally showed I think it was

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Speaker 1: Kevin like a VHS recording of of in Sync, just

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Speaker 1: sort of showcasing them, and Kevin later said an interview,

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Speaker 1: I think it was the Backstreet Boys documentary, saying, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that really felt like a betrayal. We started

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Speaker 1: out thinking, you know, we're a team, We're gonna take

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Speaker 1: over the world. There's nobody like us, and then it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my manager made somebody exactly like us. Cool like that

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Speaker 1: we can that's gonna be our biggest competition. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it must have felt like, you know, why would you

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Speaker 1: why would you do this? After we we lived with you,

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Speaker 1: like they called them big Papa, which again doesn't fill

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Speaker 1: me with a good feeling, but they viewed him as, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just like paternal figure that they lived with and

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Speaker 1: used to like get driving lessons in his rolls, Royce

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Speaker 1: and just I don't know, have dinner nights and move

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Speaker 1: me nights and stuff. And then suddenly to find out

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Speaker 1: he's basically been two time and it probably felt like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: having like a mistress or something if somebody who's like

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Speaker 1: a full time girlfriend, it really really hurt them. It

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Speaker 1: seems like from Lou Proman's perspective, he saw himself as

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Speaker 1: a potential Berry Gordy figure. And Barry Gordy, of course

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Speaker 1: is the founder of Motown, one of the great music

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Speaker 1: moguls of all time, and Barry Gordy essentially created a

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Speaker 1: factory for hit pop groups, like he just kept turning

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Speaker 1: them out. You know. It was the whether it was

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Speaker 1: the Four Tops or was the Jackson Five, the Temptations,

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Speaker 1: all all down the line, and I think, Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: this great quote from Johnny Wright, uh from Rolling Stone

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Speaker 1: where he said that, you know, instead of Motown, we

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Speaker 1: wanted to be Snowtown, Like you referred to them as Snowtown.

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Speaker 1: This idea of like whatever Motown was for R and

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Speaker 1: b X in the sixties and seventies, we're going to

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Speaker 1: be like that for boy bands in the nineties. And

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Speaker 1: of course Lou Proman fore grounded that a little bit

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Speaker 1: later on with the whole Making the Band series, uh,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, not only am I going to

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Speaker 1: be this impresario, I'm actually going to like show the

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Speaker 1: public how easy this infrastructure of this how easy it is,

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Speaker 1: which of course added to the resentment of the groups

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Speaker 1: that he first started. Like I know, the Backstreet Boys,

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Speaker 1: for instance, like hated that show because it basically made

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Speaker 1: them look like chumps, Like oh yeah, we're We're just

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Speaker 1: another product of this guy's assembly line. But yeah, like

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Speaker 1: within Sync, I mean they started getting going. I guess

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Speaker 1: it was like, was it like a year or two

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Speaker 1: after Backstreet It was like mid nineties or so. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it was like Backstreet was nine and it

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Speaker 1: started with Chris Kirkpatrick, who was actually somebody who auditioned

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Speaker 1: for the Backstreet Boys. I think that was how we

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Speaker 1: got on Lou Promin's radar. And then he knew Justin

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Speaker 1: Timberlake and j c Um and j c And and

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Speaker 1: Justin Timberlake. We're on the Mickey Mouse Club together. And

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Speaker 1: I think I could be wrong. I think the three

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Speaker 1: of them were doing like demos in Nashville together something

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Speaker 1: so that they had some kind of musical connection, and

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Speaker 1: they ran into Chris's friend from Orlando, Joey Fatone, who

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Speaker 1: I love this so much. He was working as wolfman

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Speaker 1: at the Universal Studios Beetlejuice Rock and Roll Graveyard and review,

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Speaker 1: which I can just completely see that. Yeah, perfect wolf Man.

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Speaker 1: And then uh, Justin's vocal coach suggested Lance, who was

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Speaker 1: a fifteen year old from Mississippi. Um. There was originally

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Speaker 1: another guy named Jason, and that was how they got

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Speaker 1: the band's name was supposed to be the last letter

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Speaker 1: of all of their first names. So this I forgot.

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Speaker 1: What happened to this guy Jason. He was kind of

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Speaker 1: like the like the Pete Best I guess of the insane,

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Speaker 1: and he always lasted like a couple of weeks. I

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Speaker 1: think he decided. I don't think he was fired. I

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Speaker 1: think he decided to leave. But so they made Lance

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Speaker 1: change his name like to Lanston, so that the whole

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Speaker 1: like last letter of the first name things still worked out,

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Speaker 1: which I love. Yeah, yeah, this doesn't really have like

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Speaker 1: it doesn't like Scan and Tiger Beat. I have to

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Speaker 1: say it's a good No, not really, but yeah, like

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Speaker 1: you were saying, he really tried to pit them against

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Speaker 1: each other in in their image, like if Backstreet Boys

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Speaker 1: were the sort of dark, moody, slightly more adult group,

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Speaker 1: then they were the boys next door. They're in basketball

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Speaker 1: jerseys and shorts and air Jordan's shoes and stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I agree with this, but I

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Speaker 1: guess in principle, they were supposed to be more of

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Speaker 1: a performance based group with like way better dance moves.

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Speaker 1: They had like the what's his name Darren from Darren's

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Speaker 1: Dance groups doing a lot of choreography for them, and

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Speaker 1: they were supposed to be more focused on on on

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Speaker 1: concerts and stuff, whereas Backstreet Boys, where I guess more

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Speaker 1: focused on their harmonies. I don't know if that's true,

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Speaker 1: but that's I guess what the idea was behind the

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Speaker 1: two with their separate images. That makes sense to me

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Speaker 1: because again, I think when you look at how the

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Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys are presented in their videos, they just seemed

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Speaker 1: a little more stoic and uh, like I said, more adult,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like the performance style of in Sync

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Speaker 1: it just seems younger and more energetic, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's why ultimately in Sync I feel like they overtook

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Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys by the end, even though, and this is

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Speaker 1: something we're gonna get into, I mean, there's I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's a perception that in Sync is more popular

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Speaker 1: than the Backstreet Boys, although Backstreet Boys are statistically the

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Speaker 1: best selling boy band of all time like a long shot.

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Speaker 1: I think in Sync is number eight, right, which but

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Speaker 1: but again, like perception wise, I feel like in Sync

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Speaker 1: they still seem like more of a touchdown to me,

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Speaker 1: maybe again because they seem younger, and also because they

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Speaker 1: had Justin timber Lake. I mean, I think that was

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Speaker 1: ultimately the thing that like historically, you know, people are

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Speaker 1: gonna remember in Sync because Justin timber Lake came from there,

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Speaker 1: whereas the Backstreet Boys are still together, that's there's still

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Speaker 1: a unit. But they didn't have like that one breakout star,

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Speaker 1: uh in the same way that like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Jackson five had Michael Jackson. You know, in Sync had

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Speaker 1: Justin timber Lake. Um. But you know, it is interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know how the early days, in Sync was the

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Speaker 1: underdog in this uh in this dynamic, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the members of InSync have talked about how they really

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Speaker 1: felt like the redheaded step child essentially in this UH

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Speaker 1: in this company that like the Backstuy Boys were the

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Speaker 1: main attraction and in Sync we're going to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: always coming up behind them. And it seems like that

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do with how they were launched,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, their careers got started around the same time,

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Speaker 1: but actually boys became successful just like a little bit

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Speaker 1: later than they did, right. Yeah, I think Backstreet Boys

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Speaker 1: launched first in Europe, so they were technically first, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like that and then in sync they they

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Speaker 1: both also got their start in in Europe. It was

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Speaker 1: kind of like, I think it was two fold. Your

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Speaker 1: European market was really really just primed for for American

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Speaker 1: boy bands. There was a huge, huge fad farm at

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Speaker 1: that time over there, and they were selling like crazy.

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Speaker 1: And also I think it was almost like a Broadway

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Speaker 1: show opening out of town and just to like get

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Speaker 1: the kinks out first and sort of like you know,

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Speaker 1: making sure it's all good before you you open on

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Speaker 1: on on the Great White Way. We're gonna take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and get a word from our sponsor before

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Speaker 1: we get to more rivals. Yeah, the Backstreet Boys got

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Speaker 1: started first in the States, and they, again, like you said,

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Speaker 1: instinct was sort of more of the underdog until July

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Speaker 1: and there was a Disney had an hour long concert

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Speaker 1: special planned and uh and and they wanted the Backstreet

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Speaker 1: Boys to do it, and Brian Latruelle had heart surgery

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Speaker 1: and so they couldn't do it, and so Instincts stepped

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Speaker 1: in and it was kind of their star making moment.

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Speaker 1: I guess, like records just started absolutely snowball at that point.

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Speaker 1: They went from selling like I think five albums a

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Speaker 1: week to like fifty to sixty thousand a week. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just went totally crazy. It went from being at like

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Speaker 1: sixty three on Billboard to you know, jumping up to

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Speaker 1: I think number two was this high is um as

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Speaker 1: their debut album got and back Street Boys resented the

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Speaker 1: hell out of that. It's basically like, you know, they

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Speaker 1: just completely went off our coattails and everything we passed

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Speaker 1: on they would take and now just adding insult injury.

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Speaker 1: They made a huge success of it. So that kind

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Speaker 1: of so the actual resentment between the two bands. And

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Speaker 1: it's weird because I think I think there was a

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Speaker 1: moment in Europe where it could have been either one

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Speaker 1: of them that got the first push, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: because they were both being successful overseas. The Backstreet Boys

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Speaker 1: record I think dropped in like ear like January or so,

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Speaker 1: and then I think the instinct record came out like

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Speaker 1: a few months after that. So if that had been

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Speaker 1: switched with which you feel like it could have easily done.

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Speaker 1: Then it would have been the other way around. It

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Speaker 1: would have been the back Street Boys writing on Instinct's coattails,

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Speaker 1: don't you think. I mean, I just wonder like how

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Speaker 1: this would have shaken up if Instinct would have launched first,

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Speaker 1: and if the back of Boys would have just been

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Speaker 1: overshadowed completely from the beginning, Like maybe that maybe they

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Speaker 1: were successful first because they kind of got that push

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Speaker 1: early on. Yeah, this is sort of like an alternate

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Speaker 1: timeline of boy band history. I'm throwing, Wow, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: really fascinating. You're right, because I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the b Actually Boys ended up presenting in Sync at

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Speaker 1: this time because, as you said that, there was this

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Speaker 1: idea that, like anything that the back Street Boys rejected,

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Speaker 1: in Sync would get and they would somehow benefit from

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Speaker 1: being in the jet stream of the Backstreet Boys. But

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Speaker 1: I also think they probably ended up resenting in Sync

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Speaker 1: because they could see in Sync big footing them at

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Speaker 1: some point, and they knew that they had justin Timberlake,

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Speaker 1: and and I think timber Lake in a way becomes

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Speaker 1: like the tour of in Sync, like as they go on,

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Speaker 1: like in a way that like like the Actually Boys

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Speaker 1: don't really have an a tour, like like a person

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Speaker 1: that you would look to is like a figurehead or

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Speaker 1: someone who's who's really in control. Another thing I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting about in Sync is that you know they

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Speaker 1: put out No Strings Attached in two thousand and how

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Speaker 1: old were you when that came out? When you're like twelve.

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Speaker 1: I've always thought of that as like maybe the only

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Speaker 1: like meta boy band album, and that it's an album

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Speaker 1: that sort of comments on being a boy band. Uh,

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Speaker 1: just like the puppet imagery of the cover. I just

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Speaker 1: interpreted that as them sort of mocking the idea that

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Speaker 1: they were just puppets on a string for someone like

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Speaker 1: Lou Pearlman and they didn't have any town of their own.

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Speaker 1: They always had a really good sense of hearing about that,

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Speaker 1: You're right, I mean, And then there's the action figure

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Speaker 1: video too, and even celebrity the album. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like that self awareness also helped gravitate them past the

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Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys, who for all their attributes and we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into some of that later in this episode,

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Speaker 1: because we're both Backstreet Boys defenders, um, but I think

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Speaker 1: they had more old fashioned image and artistic sensibility and

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Speaker 1: in Sync was just more modern, and ultimately I think

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Speaker 1: that's what gravitated them, at least perception wise, because again,

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Speaker 1: like record sales tell a different story. But I just

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Speaker 1: feel like in retrospect when people talk about this era,

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Speaker 1: they tend to speak more favorably of in Sync, right

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Speaker 1: or am I wrong? No? It was really strange because

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Speaker 1: I came into this thinking that in Sync really, without

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Speaker 1: having studied any of the chart statistics and stuff, was

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Speaker 1: the bigger band by far and away a cultural influence

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Speaker 1: and sales wise, and that's sales wise at least very

426
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: much not the case. But you're right, there's something so

427
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: much more fun about them that I always got, you know.

428
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, the some people liked the

429
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: whole moody Backstreet Boys thing, but instinct kind of felt

430
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: more like it felt like the Beatles in a hard

431
00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 1: day's night. To me, I always felt they were like

432
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 1: running around playing basketball, having like food fights, just just

433
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: I imagine that they lived like almost like in the

434
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 1: house and the Monkeys or something like. It just seemed

435
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: like they were having so much more of a good time.

436
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 1: And the self awareness was fun too. It kind of

437
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: like felt like they let you in on the joke,

438
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: and it made it okay to like a band that

439
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: seems so clearly manufactured and put together. It was like, yeah,

440
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: we know this is kind of goofy, but isn't this fun?

441
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean even the the beginning of the

442
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: pop video when when Justin's like talking to the woman

443
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: with the big bottle of pop in his hand, and

444
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: it just the plays on consumerism that seemed to be apparent,

445
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: and so much of their their um, their image and

446
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: their videos and the action figure one. Uh yeah, it's

447
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 1: definitely it feels more more fun, more inclusive, more more

448
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: in The self awareness especially does make it up so

449
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 1: much more just funny. Yeah, And I just feel like

450
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: if you were a kid, they just seemed like the

451
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: more fun band to be a fan of than Backstreet Boys.

452
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: Although again, I'm sure there are boy band fans listening

453
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: to this episode who think that's an insane take and

454
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: love the back Street Boys much more than in Sync.

455
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: But I just think like that postmodern aspect of in

456
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 1: Sync is just cooler ultimately than what back Street was doing,

457
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: and I just wonder if that was fueling the resentment

458
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: on the back Street Boys side, Although it's also clear

459
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: that like Lou Pearlman was stoking these flames too, right,

460
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,239
Speaker 1: I mean, didn't he like pitting these guys against each other?

461
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was like total like middle school lunch

462
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: room behavior. He would like bitch about you know, Oh man,

463
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: did you hear? What did you know what A J

464
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: said about about you? J T? Or something like. He

465
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: was just completely bitch to them about the other behind

466
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: their back and say that that they were both talking ship,

467
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: which was not true. It's like like completely not true.

468
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: But he liked having them apart both the sort of

469
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: stoked the rivalry just publicly. And also I don't think

470
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: he wanted them to talk because he probably didn't want

471
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: them to compare notes about business dealings, which were questionable,

472
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: very questionable, the old divide and conquer strategy, although I

473
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: guess and there they did have one true point of beef,

474
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: which I guess Chris Kirkpatrick said at one point that

475
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: he wanted to punch a J. McClean because he, uh,

476
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: he was dating a girl, like dating Chris's ex girlfriend.

477
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: And I guess a J started saying that, you know,

478
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: he was a bad boyfriend or something, and they had

479
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 1: like a little tiff. I think for a little while

480
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: there in the in the early two thousand's. But and

481
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: that's great too because they were like the respective bad

482
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: boys of their bands. I think Queen was like he

483
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: had McLean, had like you know, like the very finely

484
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: sculpted facial hair, and I think he had some tattoos

485
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: and the dreads. You know. Yeah, he was like the

486
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: bad boy of Backstreet and Chris Kirkpatrick. He's not really

487
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: a bad boy, but he had like the wackiest hair,

488
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: So I guess that default makes him the bad boy,

489
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: unless would J. C. Chase be the bad boy. I

490
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: always thought he was like he's like the one, like

491
00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: the easily hurt one. He's like JT's wing man. He's

492
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: like and in the way he's like the most handsome

493
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: guy in the band. Oh yeah, j that's handsomer than

494
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: than than JT. But he doesn't have quite the chrisma

495
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: or the talent for tone. Is like the is the friend.

496
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: He's he's the fun guy. It lands bass, he's he's

497
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: just hanging out. He's there, he's Lanstine, he helps complete

498
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: the band name. So that's all the elements there. Um

499
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: And I feel like another dividing thing too, that occurred

500
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: at this time in the boy band world, was like

501
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: Johnny Wright, who, you know, if Perlman was like the

502
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: huckster of the boy band empire, I mean Johnny, right,

503
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: I think really was the visionary if you want to

504
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: use that word. Yeah, and I guess Batship Boys ultimately

505
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 1: gave him an ultimatum which was like, you know, all

506
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: right too, it's like you're gonna manage us and kind

507
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: of manage our career or in Sync and he ended

508
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: up going in Sync, and uh, I think that that

509
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: definitely caused some some pain. I don't think he really

510
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: wanted to choose, but but yeah, he ended up with

511
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: being with insinc which might be responsible for why we

512
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,719
Speaker 1: kind of envisioned them now as still being the more

513
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: impactful and relevant and influential band too, maybe because he

514
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: had had that guiding for us. Yeah, and I think

515
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: Johnny Wright knew that he's going to hit his wagon

516
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: and j T and you know, like whatever, it's like

517
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna because you know, as as successful as as

518
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: Backstreet was, he could probably tell that those guys were

519
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: always going to be greater than the some of their parts,

520
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: whereas in Sync had like a really valuable asset in

521
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 1: the middle who was probably gonna eventually inevitably go out

522
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: in his own So I think Johnny Right was probably

523
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: savvy enough to recognize that in the moment. And I

524
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: always thought j C never got his dude too. I

525
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: always thought he could have been. I don't know if

526
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: he had, I don't know what it was, more more

527
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: of a personality, more something. I thought his voice was

528
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: just as good as in so many ways too well,

529
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: he didn't have the wherewithal to hook up with the Neptunes.

530
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: I think that was ulto and I guess in uh

531
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: Timberland later on, I mean, like just I think JT's

532
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: taste was the best in that band, and he was

533
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: the most discerning and knowing like what he should be

534
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: associated with. And I think that started in sync and

535
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: then it really took over for sure on his first

536
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: two albums as a solo artist. I think later on

537
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: he kind of loses his way a little bit. But

538
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: at the time, however, the war between Backstreet didn't sync.

539
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: It started to cool once this divide and conquers strategy

540
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: that that Loup Roman had started to break down, and

541
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: these guys actually started talking to each other and realizing

542
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: like how much they were being screwed. And it really

543
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: is like the age old tale of like signing a

544
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: bad record deal and uh, getting no money even though

545
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: you're being hugely successful, because it's all going to your

546
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: management and your record label, which I guess in this

547
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: case was the same person I mean because Loup Roleman,

548
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: because they were still were they still on trans Continental

549
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: at this time or they were they at a different labels.

550
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: I think they went to Mark Curry. And the only

551
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: reason I know that I remember that is because I

552
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: think John Mellencamp was also I believe on Mercury threatened

553
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: to leave if they did business with boy bands, So

554
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: I think that they had some kind of I don't

555
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: know if it's a distribution deal or what, but I

556
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: think they're involved with Mercury at that time. I wonder

557
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: if if Cougar has like met justin Termber like since then,

558
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: I feel like those two would probably get along because

559
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: I mean, now JT is just like a middle aged dad,

560
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: so he probably likes Cougar Mellencamp by now. Um, But yeah,

561
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean there was this instance I think with the

562
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys, like where they made like ten million dollars

563
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: for lou Pearlman in the nineties and they were in together.

564
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: They made three thousand dollars, which comes out to sixty

565
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: grand apiece, you know, which means that they were being

566
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: paid what you know people get paid for, you know,

567
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: computer programming basically, uh, actually computer programmers probably make a

568
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: lot more than that, you know. The point is that

569
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: they were like one of the biggest pop bands in

570
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: the world, and they were making a fraction of what

571
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: they were generating. And the thing that I never understood

572
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: because I thought he would have been smarter than this,

573
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: instead of just kind of silently ripping them off and

574
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: just kind of saying, oh, yeah, it's given me more

575
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: of that kind more more of that came from kind

576
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: of the classic huckster manager line. He made a big

577
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: show of presenting him this tiny check. I think it

578
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: was in sync they he invited him at the dinner

579
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: at some fancy steakhouse and on the plates in front

580
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 1: of him, they all had an envelope and on his account,

581
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: they reached down and opened them all up and looked

582
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: at them and there were checks for ten thousand dollars.

583
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: And this is after selling you know, ten million records

584
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I guess. I think in Lance's autobiography

585
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: says that he just like ripped the check up on

586
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: the spot and that was when he knew, like, Okay,

587
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: there's something up with lou There's something wrong here. Uh.

588
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, I love the story though about like how

589
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: all these guys bonded because there was this charity basketball

590
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: game that Justin and j C were playing in from

591
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: in saying, and Brian and Nick from Backstreet were, you know,

592
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: in the same game, and then they all went to

593
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: McDonald's afterwards, which, by the way, like how awesome would

594
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: it be to be at McDonald's in and you see,

595
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, these heads of boy band empires walk in

596
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: to discuss how they're being ripped off by their manager.

597
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: But yes, yes, the mcflurry summit of or wherever it was.

598
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean they started talking and they realized like, wow,

599
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: you're not making any money and we're not making any money,

600
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: and Louke Roman is like rolling around in money naked

601
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: on beds with you know, why did our bills spread everywhere?

602
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: Take that out of my head right now, I'm sorry.

603
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: The point is is that Louke Roman's rich and we're not,

604
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: and we need to do something about this right, And

605
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: I think it was Briany went first and said, we

606
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: were going to file law. We have to. I think UM,

607
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: someone in Uncle or something took a look at the

608
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: contract and called it the single worst contract he'd ever

609
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: seen in his history of practicing entertainment law. Really really

610
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: bad news. Um. It was a extremely ugly, uh court

611
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: battle for for both of them. Um. I think Back

612
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: Street Boys were able to buy themselves out of his

613
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: contract for something like thirty million and instant. It was

614
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: a little worse. I mean, I don't know if you'd

615
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: call it David and Goliath, but not far off. The

616
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: label was basically saying, you know, he owns you, he

617
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: owns the name, he owns I think the masters actually

618
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: he like, you can't win this. But they found a

619
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: loophole in their contract where I forget exactly. It's a

620
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: lot of legal minutia, but I think the fact that

621
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: they signed it when they were in Germany and the

622
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: contract was only valid and if they signed in the

623
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: United States it was something weird like that about where

624
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: they were when they signed it, UH, got them sort

625
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: of a loophole to to end up getting out of it.

626
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: And UM, the result for both of the bands was

627
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: um incredible albums that both kind of obliquely referenced this

628
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 1: whole UH saga. The one that kind of most directly

629
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: does is Um Instincts No Strings Attached, which you said

630
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: earlier is kind of a reference to cutting the strings

631
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: of the puppet Master. They see it on the cover

632
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: and in the video for for Bye Bye Bye, which

633
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: I always thought was a very telling title for I

634
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: think their first single after the Perlman UH debacle. But Um,

635
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: this album, No Strings Attached sold two point four million

636
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: copies in its first week in two thousand, which there

637
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: was a record that held until for Adele. I mean,

638
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: just absolutely insane amount and not too I guess they

639
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: were kind of getting along at this point, but Backstreet

640
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: probably wasn't too happy that about that because they had

641
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: held the record before that with Millennium for I think

642
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: it was one point five million in its first week

643
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: something like that. But yeah, it's like the steroid era

644
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: for the record sales. I mean, and this is like, right,

645
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: Napster is starting to hit critical mass, Like you know,

646
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: Napster starts to become a thing in on college campuses,

647
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: and it's really going to start taking over in the

648
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: early odds, but like right before that, it was like

649
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: the fall of Rome. You know, like we're partying hardcore,

650
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, just total decadence and drunk on team pop

651
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: money at this time and uh No students attached sort

652
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: of like the height of that before everything started to

653
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: fall apart for record sales. You can almost kind of

654
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: see it in the back Street Boys next album, which

655
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: was called black and Blue, as they said, sort of

656
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: a reference to the way that their their former mentor

657
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: had bruised them, and that didn't sell quite as much.

658
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: It's almost like, like you said, those things attached was

659
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: the apex and started going down a little bit. And

660
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: then um in Sync's next album, Celebrity Too, didn't sell

661
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: as well. I know that's still sold a ridiculous amount,

662
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: but but yeah, Backstreet and uh in Sync. They later

663
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: said that their fights, boy band fights, are like hockey fights.

664
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: It looks real bad on TV, but afterwards you go

665
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: out and have a beer and they um, I think

666
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: Lance ended up telling People magazine, you know, this whole

667
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: thing with Lou really brought us together more and and

668
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,719
Speaker 1: and their their buds kind of so they become buds

669
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: as we enter into the odds, and it's an interesting

670
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: period for both of these groups because as they become bonded,

671
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: their careers end up taking very different paths. Like you've

672
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: in Sync who they put out Celebrity, as you mentioned

673
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: after no Students Attached, and that record does really great

674
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: by pretty much anyone's standards other than in Sync, Like

675
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: it's not as big of a hit as No Strings Attached.

676
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: And more importantly, Justin timber Lake is getting going on

677
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: his solo career, and you know, I revisited the first

678
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: two timber Lake records getting ready for this podcast, and

679
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: I gotta say, man justified um his debut. I think

680
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: it's like one of the best pop records of the

681
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: last twenty years. I mean, that is such a great record,

682
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: and people talk about future sex Love Sounds, uh being

683
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: I think his artistic pinnacle, which I think that's a

684
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: great record too. But it to me, like when I

685
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: look at Justin timber Lake's career, it's hard not to

686
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: look at in Sync as successful as they were, as

687
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: like a preamble to like those records, um, at least

688
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: artistically speaking, because I think that is really like some

689
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: of the best music that came out of the team

690
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: pop wave of the of the late nineties. Like if

691
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: you want to talk about how like with Michael Jackson,

692
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: Off the Wall and Thriller were like a combination of

693
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: his journey from being a motown child star then moving

694
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: on through the seventies and then he gets to make

695
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: those records. Like I'm not saying those records are as

696
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: good as Off the Wall and Thriller, but like I

697
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: think for timber Lake, that's as good as he got

698
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: in terms of making pop music. Uh, wouldn't you agree?

699
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, like those kind of overshadow everything

700
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: that he did and in sync. Oh yeah, I mean

701
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: in the same way that I like Off the Wall

702
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: more than Thriller. I like Justified more than feature sex

703
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: love sounds, which I think a lot of those songs

704
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,959
Speaker 1: on Justified weren't they sort of not rejects but songs

705
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: that Michael Jackson passed on for Invincible. I think at

706
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: least a couple of them are, right. Yeah, I've never

707
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure if that's true or if that

708
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: is just urban legends. Like I've heard that mentioned, and

709
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, like a sound like rock

710
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: your Body for instance, that just seems like such a

711
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: great homage to Off the Wall era Michael Jackson that

712
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, why didn't Michael Jackson record this? I

713
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: think if that were true? Um but I think in

714
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 1: a way, you know, again, we've we've had this thing

715
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 1: where were where we both feel like in Sync seems

716
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: more popular than the Backstreet Boys, even though the Backstreet

717
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: Boys statistically sold more records. Um, I really think that

718
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: people maybe just add Justin timberlake solo career to the

719
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: legacy of in Sync, even though in Sync by two

720
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: thousand and seven they were officially finished by then and

721
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: they've never gotten back together. Um. But in a way,

722
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: I feel like Justin Chamberlake is to carry the torch

723
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: forward for them, and maybe that's affected how we perceive

724
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: these two groups, and it's kind of ensured in a

725
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: way to in Sync transcended their era in a way

726
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: that the back Street Boys didn't. Wouldn't you say, yeah,

727
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: it's right. I mean Justin Timberlakes still getting chart hits,

728
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: whereas Backstreet Boys. I don't really think that the stuff

729
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: that the song they did with like New Kids on

730
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: the Block for example, Like I don't really think of

731
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: it as being quite as relevant in the same way.

732
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: I mean, they the fact that they're still going is

733
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, really great. And you know, I'm trying to

734
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: be kinder. They've got their Vegas residency and they released

735
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of albums since then. But yeah, it's just

736
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: it feels like kind of you know, Elvis in Vegas

737
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: era to me, like it, it feels nostalgia heavy, which is,

738
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: you know, a noble career. I'm not trying to knock

739
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: that at all or what they did do, which again,

740
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: I think they sold a hundred and thirty million albums

741
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: total worldwide, most successful boy band ever. I mean that

742
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: that's a hell of a legacy. If you're got to

743
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 1: coast on your legacy, that's a good one that was done.

744
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's something about that that j T is

745
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: still out there releasing stuff. It makes it feel like

746
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: Instinct's presence is kind of the specter of in Sync

747
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: is still on the charts. Yeah, I mean, I think

748
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: I think the Backstreet Boys, like if I think you

749
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: got to give it to them in terms of like

750
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: how they've been able to maintain their audience because they

751
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: are still really they still have a lot of fans.

752
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: I think I think the difference is that justin Timberlake

753
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: sort of got out of that niche of boy bands

754
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: where he became sort of like a pop star for everybody,

755
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: not just for people that were into that kind of music. Um,

756
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: you know, I actually covered a Backstreet Boys concert in

757
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: two thousand one when I was a young newspaper reporter

758
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: and it was the first show that a J. McClean

759
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: performed after he went to rehab It's history and like, yeah, man,

760
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: historic gig, and uh, I mean the audience at that

761
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: show was insane, you know. I mean they were super

762
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: into the into them, and that was still like they

763
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: were still like a pretty big band at that point.

764
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: They were you know, they were playing at a sold

765
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: out arena, you know, and they were just tons of

766
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: screaming women like throughout that that entire show. But yeah,

767
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: like as the odds go on, you just see that

768
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,919
Speaker 1: their albums become not irrelevant. I mean they're still selling

769
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: in good numbers, but yeah, it just starts to shrink,

770
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,959
Speaker 1: uh in terms of like I guess they're greater fame

771
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: and they become, like you said, more of a nostalgia

772
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: act something that like if you were thirteen years old

773
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: and two thousand. Now you're in your mid thirties and

774
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna get together with like your junior high friends

775
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: and go see the Backstreet Boys and and and it

776
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: kind of relive your youth. I mean, that's what their

777
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: career is now. And you know it's funny. I mean

778
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: I asked a lot of friends just out of pure curiosity,

779
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: because I really truly believe in sync far and away.

780
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: I guess I live in a in sync house, you know.

781
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: I just that I'm surrounded by people that that's their band.

782
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: So it definitely contributed to my bias. But I asked

783
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: around and it was a straight fifty split. It Backstreet

784
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: Boys in Sync and and the Backstreet Boy fans were

785
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: extremely passionate. And I gotta say it's a great book

786
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: coming up by Maria Sherman, incredible writer for Jezebel, called

787
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 1: um Larger than Life boy Band History, and I read

788
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: it last night just I couldn't put it down. It

789
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: was so good and just it's just so funny to

790
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: me how it's just the boy band continuum. I mean,

791
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: going back from you could even call the Beatles even,

792
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: I mean, with all the early n bubble gum type

793
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: stuff that they were selling and all the marketing and everything.

794
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: It's just fascinating that that continuum continues through to like

795
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: you know, the wanted and in one direction, and it's

796
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: I'm really curious about the whole phenomenon, but just what

797
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: it does to people and why people get so passionate

798
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, I know, like rock fans love

799
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: their band and you know, do or Die Zeppelin versus

800
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: you know, the Who or something like that, or Spiels

801
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: versus Stones, or Oasis versus Blur. But I don't think

802
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: I've ever seen people be so passionate about a boy

803
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 1: band or a band rivalry then about in Sync versus

804
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: Backstreet Boys, at least for the ones we've done so far.

805
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: It's crazy. It's funny because for the bands themselves, they

806
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: pretty much deny now that they ever had a rivalry.

807
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: I mean when they talk about it, you know now,

808
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: like they'll they'll talk about each other in complimentary turns,

809
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: maybe sometimes like make like you know, kind hearted jabs

810
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: at each other, but it seems like they want to

811
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: put all that behind them and just pretty much put

812
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: it on lou Perlman, like it seems like he is

813
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: now the villain of this story rather than rather than them,

814
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: you know, sort of going head to head against each other. Yeah,

815
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: although I think Joey challenged him like a basketball showdown

816
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: and said that in Sync could kick Backstreet Boys ass

817
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: on the basketball court, which I would love to see personally,

818
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: I think so Again, I feel like, like Kevin Richardson

819
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: from back Street Boys, wasn't he like fifty two years

820
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: old or something when he joined that band? I mean

821
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: that dude seem like a middle aged man immediately in

822
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: that Yeah, every I mean I every boy band seems

823
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: to have that one member that like looks like he's

824
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: sort of like the chaperone. I guess Chris Kirkpatrick, I think,

825
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: and instinct played that role. But they gave him like

826
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: the wacky sides hiwbob hair though, so he kind of

827
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: could pass for a young person. Whereas Richardson, I just

828
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: picture him wearing like a smoking jacket and smoking a

829
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: pipe and maybe like a back brace or something. It

830
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: seemed like so much older. Yeah, No, he used to

831
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: like freak me out. He just and those like piercing

832
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: eyes too. It was Yeah, there was definitely some like

833
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: it seemed like he'd like seen some ship and like

834
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: maybe that was contributed definitely the whole moody image of

835
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: the Backstreet place. But yeah, no, there was he kind

836
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: of stuck out from me. You're totally right, all right hand.

837
00:42:47,080 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more rivals. So let's talk

838
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: about the pro cases for each side. We'll start with

839
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: the Backstreet Boys. We've talked about this already in the episode.

840
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: But um, they are the most successful boy band of

841
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: all time in terms of records sold. Like you said,

842
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: it's like a hundred and thirty million records and uh,

843
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: which just dwarfs the number of records that in Sync

844
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: is sold. That I think back Street also put has

845
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 1: put out more albums too, so that's helped them get there.

846
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: But um, you know, like we were saying, I I

847
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: think the case that the group themselves might make is

848
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: that they are more of a band than in Sync.

849
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: Was that there is a sense of the some being

850
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, greater than than the parts. Um. And if

851
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: you want to look at that from a negative perspective,

852
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: you could say that, well, that's because there aren't any

853
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: breakout stars on the level of a gist of a

854
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: justin timber Lake in the Backstreet Boys, but in terms

855
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: of the long term like longevity. Um, you know, there's

856
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: no question that that parody that exists in the back

857
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 1: Street Boys, it's helped keep them together. Um. I also

858
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: say two and I think you agree with this. I

859
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: think I want it that way is the great song

860
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: of the boy Banderah like. It is the best song

861
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: that any that either of these groups have put out.

862
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 1: I might argue that I like more in sync songs

863
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: than Backstreet Boys songs, but I don't like any in

864
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: sync song as much as I want it that way. Yeah,

865
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: that's exactly how I feel, despite the fact I still

866
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: have no idea what it means. Yeah, you know, I

867
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: was looking at the lyrics of this song and Okay,

868
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: so in the chorus that goes, I don't want to

869
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: hear you say, ain't nothing but a heartache, Ain't nothing

870
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: but a mistake, and he says, I never want to

871
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: hear you say I want it that way. But like

872
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: in the verses, he's the recurring motif is that he

873
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: does want it that way. It's like they're arguing over

874
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: who gets to say that they want it that way?

875
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: Is how I've I've read it. Yeah, I it's definitely

876
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: I mean I think Max Martin even said like, oh yeah,

877
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: I wrote that when my my English wasn't that good. Uh,

878
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: And that's I think they recorded a version where the

879
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: lyrics actually made sense in English, and it they played

880
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: it back and they had like focus testing and stuff,

881
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: and it just didn't sound the same. It just didn't

882
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: have the same It just didn't roll off the tongue.

883
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: I guess as well. And so they went with a

884
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: version that you know, kind of looks like a Google

885
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: Translate mistake. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. But there's

886
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 1: that part at the end, like where the chord changes

887
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: and you know, the song lifts up. It's like the

888
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: dramatic climax of the song and it's like I don't care,

889
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: like how much of a badass you think you are,

890
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: you listen to that part of the song. It is like,

891
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, scientifically engineered to give you the chills. Like

892
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: that is such a rousing part of that song, and

893
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: it really what I think makes that song such a

894
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: transcendent like pop standard. And you know the best part

895
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: is then they saved that moment in the video for

896
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: when all the fans are like on the tarmac too,

897
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: So it's not that moment doesn't just belong to Backstreet Boys.

898
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,399
Speaker 1: That belongs to the fans too, which is like, yeah,

899
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: all right, I always appreciated that. So I mean, do

900
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 1: you do you agree that? I mean, essentially, like that

901
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: is what their case rests on. If you're gonna argue,

902
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: in fact on behalf of the Backstreet Boys, it's it's

903
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: I want it that way, and it's their longevity as

904
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 1: a band. Yeah. I would also say that clearing the

905
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: way for in Sync. Um. I mean I again, like

906
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 1: we were talking earlier, I don't know how InSync would

907
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: have done if they had been the first one out,

908
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: but I think that they definitely benefited from even just

909
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: just managerial mistakes and stuff like that that that Backstreet

910
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: Boys had gone on before through them. So I think

911
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: that adding to the cases that in Sync benefited too,

912
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: and a lot of the bands that followed. I mean,

913
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: they were the first at the gate for boy bands

914
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: of the late nineties degrees Ohtown, Alfo, and then even

915
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: like British imports like Westlife and five and Boys Zoned.

916
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: I think that, um, you know, on the the sort

917
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 1: of boy band pyramid, they're sort of the Keyston. Yeah,

918
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: So you would say that they're they're the Nirvana of

919
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: boy bands. Yes, that's exactly what I would say. I

920
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: like that a lot, so I guess, I guess and

921
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: I want it that way. Then would be the smells

922
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: like teen spirit of of of boy bands like just

923
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: kicked down the door for so many other bands, just

924
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: changed the world. Um going over the instinct side, and

925
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: we we reiterated this already, I think that the case

926
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: for them is that even though that they know, even

927
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: though they're not technically as successful as the Backstreet Boys,

928
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: they are perceived to be more successful. And in a way,

929
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: I think that speaks to the relevance that they have

930
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: now they just seem to be the band that is

931
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 1: I hate to use this word, but they seem cooler

932
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: than the Backstreet Boys, uh, And I think that has

933
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: fed into their legacy. And the other thing Insinct has

934
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: again is justin timber Lake. And you can say that

935
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: Backstreet is more of a band, there's maybe more of

936
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: a spirit among the members, But because in Sync had

937
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: justin timber Like, I think it just gave them irrelevance

938
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: that goes beyond boy bands and goes beyond that sort

939
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: of late nineties early odds epic that all these groups

940
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: were on. It just extended the life of that group

941
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: in a way, even though the group itself, you know,

942
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: it's no longer together. Oh yeah. And that's not even

943
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: to diminish what he did during the band's time together too.

944
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: I mean, he was an incredible songwriter and uh gone

945
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: was nominated for a Grammy, and then he wrote the

946
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: song girlfriend with with Nellie and I think that was

947
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: when he first teamed up with the Neptunes, to which

948
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: obviously worked out really well for all music fans. Uh.

949
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: And then just like his relevance and pop culture at

950
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: the time too, I mean, dating Britney Spears was like God,

951
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: that was like, what are our James Taylor and Carly

952
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: Simon or something and our our pop super couple. By

953
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: the way, we had to do a JT and Brittany

954
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: episode at something because Man, when I revisited Cry Like

955
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: a River the other day, I was like, Damn, this

956
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: is a brutal song, savage, and uh it seems a

957
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: little unfair, you know, Yeah, but it's such a great

958
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: song that you forgive it when you're listening to it.

959
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, that that's definitely gonna be something we need

960
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: to talk about at some point, you know, you said

961
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: James Taylor and h Carly Simon. There's also some Lindsay

962
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: and Stevie elements to them as well, even though they

963
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 1: weren't in the same band. They weren't in the same band,

964
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: but like in terms of you know, just sniping at

965
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: each other through their songs. Uh, you know, there's a

966
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: there's a rich history there. But anyway, that's a tangent

967
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: for another day. I also feel like not to sleep

968
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: on Lance Bass. I just think his cultural influence is

969
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: not only a gay icon, but he was gonna be

970
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: trying to be the youngest astronaut in the space, which

971
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're gonna go from being a

972
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: boy in a boy band, I don't know, maybe like

973
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: be a manager of another boy band, or maybe going

974
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: the pr like when your boy band closes down, going

975
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 1: to acting maybe, But he wanted to be an astronaut,

976
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: and I just want to say, I think that's really cool.

977
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: I just want to like shot that out. I think

978
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: that's like an awesome that that that's part of my

979
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: pro in sync cases, the fact that Lance wanted to

980
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: go to space. He didn't quite make it, but still

981
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: is that the first time anyone is uttered the phrase

982
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: don't sleep on Lance Bass. I don't think anyone has

983
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: ever said that ever, So congratulations on breaking that don't

984
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: sleep on Lance Bass Barrier. Um. In terms of these

985
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 1: two groups together, yeah, I mean, I think I think

986
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: we've made it pretty clear that you know, at the

987
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: time they were pitted against each other in part by

988
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: design by lou Perlman. But again, to give lou Perlman

989
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: some credit, I do think that, you know, rather than

990
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: canceling each other out, I think that these groups actually

991
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: helped each other because they both existed at the same time.

992
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: It made the Backstreet Boys not seem like as much

993
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: of a novelty. And it also I think gave in

994
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: Sync something to strive for. You know, if they felt

995
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: like they were less than at that time, you know,

996
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: they could look at Backstreet as like a goal that

997
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: they could try to, you know, attain their status. And

998
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: I think one thing that we've found on this show

999
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: is that when you have some conflict and you give

1000
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: people a choice, UM, it doesn't like dampen people's enthusiasm.

1001
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: Actually like brings it up and it makes people more excited.

1002
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: So I think, Um, I think the evidence shows that

1003
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: they actually helped each other in their careers, you know,

1004
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: as much as they might have thought at the time

1005
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: that they were maybe threatening each other's bottom line. I mean,

1006
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: don't you think, Yeah, you know, And I never really

1007
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: thought about the argument about how instinct kind of legitimized

1008
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: the Backstreet Boys is not a fluke, is not this

1009
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, the Monkeys, kind of stand alone, successful,

1010
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: prefab thing. You're right, And by giving people the choice,

1011
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: I think it was in Maria Sherman's new book that's

1012
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: coming out in July. It um, it's like the Beatles

1013
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: on the Stones. You see the group that you personally

1014
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: identify with. By having that choice, you see the attributes

1015
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: that you yourself see. You know, I'm a Beatles guy.

1016
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm an instinct guy, sort more playful fund doesn't take

1017
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: things seriously kind of thing that people that that like

1018
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: the moody, dark, brooding side and the sort of more

1019
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: dangerous rock and roll. I'm gonna put you know, in

1020
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: sync is definitely the Beatles in the scenario, and Backstreet

1021
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: Boys are definitely the Stones. I just having that dichotomy

1022
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: is you're right, It's it says more about us than

1023
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: it does about either band too, So I think you're

1024
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: wrong on that. I think in Sync is the Stones

1025
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: and I think back Street is the Beatles. Well, I

1026
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: think yeah, because well, first of all, the Beatles were first,

1027
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 1: just like the Backstreet Boys, I think the I think

1028
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: the Backstreet Boys had more of a button up image

1029
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 1: in the same way that the Beatles did. I think

1030
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: in Sync was the looser again, more kind of kid

1031
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: friendly band. If you want to say that they were rebellious,

1032
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: I think they were probably more rebellious than the Backstreet Boys.

1033
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: I mean they were rebelling against their own manager on

1034
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: the cover of their record No Strings Attached. You know,

1035
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: they were much more upfront about challenging the machine. You know,

1036
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: if you will, then the Backstreet Boys were so insinc

1037
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: Definitely the Stones, Backstreet definitely the Beatles. All right, I

1038
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: would say that's it's a fascinating take. I hadn't considered.

1039
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: But you know, this has got to be probably the

1040
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 1: happiest ending of any few we've ever done, and possibly

1041
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: we'll ever do. I mean, you know, they overcame the prejudices,

1042
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: teamed up, corrected grave injustices got what they deserve. The

1043
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: bad guy went to jail made some cool tunes. It's like,

1044
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, like an episode of Scooby Doo or

1045
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: something like. It's such a great like after school special ending.

1046
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's safe to say to you

1047
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: that they both wanted it that way. They do want

1048
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: to hear you say it. Not not I don't want

1049
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: to hear you say it. They do want to hear

1050
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: you say it because again, that is the proper way

1051
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: to write that song, right, like the ideas that you

1052
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: want her to say. I want it that way because

1053
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: it's the way you want it, right, You want that correct,

1054
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: you want her to want it too. I think he's

1055
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,919
Speaker 1: saying like, I'm your fire, I'm your desire. I want

1056
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: it that way, and I want you to want it

1057
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: that way. I really you know what I want no

1058
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: way I want it. I want to hear you sing it.

1059
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: I know you said you could sing every word. I

1060
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: would love to hear you sing it, maybe in our

1061
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 1: next episode. I got it before that. Which boy band type?

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00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: Or would you be? Stephen? I know, I know, I

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00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: know what I would be, but I wanna hear you first.

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00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: What would you be? I would either be probably, I

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00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: mean realistically, I would like to be the sweet one.

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00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: I would probably be the one who looks prematurely old

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00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: because in high school I used to get shown hall

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00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: passes from the underclassman because I thought it was a teacher.

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00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: So I probably would be the Chris Kirkpatrick or or

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00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 1: Kevin Richardson one who just looks like way too old

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00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: to be there. But um, yeah, that's if I'm honest. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be Joey for Tone because because I'm also

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00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a total Joey fat One too, so you know,

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00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: I'll be Stevie fat One. Um. On that note, I

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00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: think it's time for us to go. So thank you

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00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: all for listening to this episode of Rivals, and I

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00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: hope you will enjoyed some see Granize Dancing with your

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00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: best Friends sometime in the future. Rivals is a production

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00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are shaun Tytone

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00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 1: and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chacogne and

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00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.

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00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe to leave

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00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio,

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00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,919
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

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00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.