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Speaker 1: The first thing that drove me to the story was

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Speaker 1: the pill, and actually through the reporting and spending time

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Speaker 1: in Latin America following how the information spread so quickly,

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Speaker 1: how these women built support systems around this pill, I

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Speaker 1: understood that that was the real story.

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Speaker 2: From Futuro Media and PRX, it's Latino USA. I'm Maria

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Speaker 2: Jojosa today a conversation about the making of the Network.

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Speaker 2: It's a new series that follows the women who transformed

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Speaker 2: abortion access around the world by taking abortion out of

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Speaker 2: the clinic or Latino USA listener, you know, these past

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Speaker 2: few days, we've brought you the Network. It's a new

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Speaker 2: series that Latino USA co produced with NPR's Embedded podcast,

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Speaker 2: and it's about this network of women, not an established

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Speaker 2: organization of any kind, but just women who were helping

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Speaker 2: other women to have safe abortions without a doctor present

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Speaker 2: and regardless of the law. And by doing this, the

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Speaker 2: women and these networks completely transformed abortion access around the world.

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Speaker 2: Latino USA producers and hosts of this series, Marta Martinez

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Speaker 2: and Victoria Estrada, have taken us to Brazil in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties, where the women there made this surprising discovery

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Speaker 2: about mesoprostol and how you can use this ulcer pill

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Speaker 2: to actually have a safe abortion at home. Then Martin

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Speaker 2: and Victoria reported on how the network continued to grow,

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Speaker 2: how it changed tactics and eventually was even able to

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Speaker 2: help change the law around abortion in many countries. So

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Speaker 2: if you haven't listened to this series, please do. It's

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Speaker 2: just great history and great journalism. You can find all

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Speaker 2: of the episodes on the embedded feed or look for

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Speaker 2: them on this feed. But today we wanted to bring

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Speaker 2: you a behind the scenes conversation about how the series

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Speaker 2: was made. Victoria and Marta have been reporting for this

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Speaker 2: series for over a year. They traveled all over the

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Speaker 2: Americas in order to reconstruct a story that spans for decades,

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Speaker 2: and they're going to tell us all about it. Welcome

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Speaker 2: Marta and Victoria.

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Speaker 3: Hi Mariya, thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Hi Madia. So you know, I'm part of the generation

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Speaker 2: that in the United States it becomes politicized because of

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Speaker 2: the issue of abortion, the passage of Roe v. Wade, right,

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Speaker 2: But also I understand the Latin American component because I

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Speaker 2: studied Latin American studies and I was a feminist. So

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Speaker 2: for me, this is a story that I kind of

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Speaker 2: have known. And what I wanted to ask you was,

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Speaker 2: how did the both of you are much younger than me,

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Speaker 2: come upon this moment and say, wow, we really need

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Speaker 2: to tell this story.

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Speaker 1: I think for me it was having reported on reproductive

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Speaker 1: rights for many years in Latin America. It's pretty clear

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Speaker 1: there that this is how you have an abortion. For

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Speaker 1: most regular people, they will take me so prostal and

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to tell that story, but also the

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Speaker 1: origin of how this was discovered, because it's actually a

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Speaker 1: fascinating story, the fact that it was actually appeal that

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Speaker 1: was invented for something completely different like stomach problems, and

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Speaker 1: it's this quote unquote side effect.

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Speaker 2: I mean, whoever it was that was able to unlock

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Speaker 2: that and we don't know, right we don't. That's pretty incredible. Yeah, Nctodia,

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Speaker 2: what about you? How did you come to this story?

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Speaker 3: I live in Mexico and I've been covering also Latin America,

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Speaker 3: also Latin communities in the US. But I think that

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Speaker 3: once you're reporting and you pay attention, you see the

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Speaker 3: story of feminism in Latin America, how it's been like

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Speaker 3: for the last couple of decades, women have been organizing

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Speaker 3: because there are a lot of issues that they face

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Speaker 3: in their specific countries, and when you start to look

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Speaker 3: at it, abortion has been like a very strong component

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Speaker 3: of the activism and the organizing, you start to see,

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Speaker 3: like all of the collectives, it's not just institutions. It

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Speaker 3: literally can be just like women who know about it.

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Speaker 3: And so we were really thinking about that when the

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Speaker 3: overturn of Wade happened in twenty twenty two. So I

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Speaker 3: think that for us the connection was like very natural

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Speaker 3: and clear to try to follow this story.

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Speaker 2: This is a story to me that is as much

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Speaker 2: about the issue of reproductive justice and reproductive rights as

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Speaker 2: it is about living, breathing feminism, women organizing, women having

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Speaker 2: a whole way of operating that is outside of just

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Speaker 2: institutional norms. So that part of the story Marta, the

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Speaker 2: Feminist Test is really extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: What I found fascinating is how women actually came up

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Speaker 1: with this whole system of taking care of each other

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Speaker 1: that was very different from what you will find in

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Speaker 1: the traditional medical system. And just being able to document

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Speaker 1: that is something that has been a goal for us

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Speaker 1: because this was just women experimenting on their own and

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Speaker 1: no one really.

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Speaker 4: From those bigger institutions.

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Speaker 1: Not a lot of people were paying attention at the time,

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Speaker 1: and so I think it needs to be documented that

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Speaker 1: this happened, and how it happened, and who were the

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Speaker 1: people who made that happen right Because they were taking

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Speaker 1: a lot of risks because in these countries abortion was

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Speaker 1: pretty much banned. They could end up in prison, and

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Speaker 1: that's also probably part of the reason why they were

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Speaker 1: not keeping track. In many cases, not all of the groups,

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Speaker 1: but many of the groups. It was dangerous to keep

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Speaker 1: track of things.

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Speaker 2: You had to go back and essentially find people who

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Speaker 2: were actively engaged in multiple parts of this story in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies and eighties. You know, I was alive

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Speaker 2: at that time. It's not like one hundred years ago,

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Speaker 2: but finding people in Brazil to be able to talk

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Speaker 2: about this. Can you just share a little bit of

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Speaker 2: how you found some of the people who were actually

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Speaker 2: on the front lines, whether it's the doctor from Casife

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Speaker 2: or it's the woman who can see Cristo from her

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Speaker 2: apartment in Rio de Ja Neeiro. I love your descriptions.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about how you did this

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Speaker 2: deep reporting.

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Speaker 3: We started reporting on this, doing research about this over

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Speaker 3: a year ago. So we had like some ideas, but

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Speaker 3: we knew that we needed to go on the ground.

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Speaker 3: We were actually able to go to Brazil, and so

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Speaker 3: when we got there, they start telling like the more

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Speaker 3: personal how they were living, what they were doing. We

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Speaker 3: mentioned this very briefly in the story, but Brazil was

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Speaker 3: coming out of the dictatorship in the mid eighties, and

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Speaker 3: so there was a lot of organizing in Brazil. The

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Speaker 3: moment Mestill came out, there was a lot of movement.

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Speaker 3: It was very prime because women were already organizing to

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Speaker 3: try to get rights into the constitution, and so women

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Speaker 3: started building knowledge just like by sharing with each other.

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Speaker 3: That really informed our reporting, like, oh, it really is

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Speaker 3: the women. The women are connecting with each other and

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Speaker 3: it's this network.

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Speaker 1: Before we went to Brazil, we were like, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: think once we are on the ground, we're going to

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Speaker 1: find someone. And then we were on the ground and

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Speaker 1: we were talking to all these activists, all these experts,

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Speaker 1: and we would always ask at the end of the interview,

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Speaker 1: do you happen to know someone who took side to

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Speaker 1: tech in the late nineteen eighties, And their answer kind

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Speaker 1: of surprised us. They always said no, I don't know

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Speaker 1: anyone directly, Like I've studied this, I've been, you know,

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Speaker 1: learning so much about this throughout history, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know anyone personally. So we understood that there was a

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Speaker 1: big class element involved. Those were not the people who

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Speaker 1: were actually experimenting with side at tech. It was poor women.

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Speaker 1: And so we ended up finding the person and we

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Speaker 1: cannot give a lot of details because we need to

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Speaker 1: protect her identity, but basically it was through a personal

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Speaker 1: connection of one of the local journalists who helped us

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Speaker 1: when we were in Brazil. So it was really interesting

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Speaker 1: to understand that we needed to break that class barrier

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Speaker 1: to really find the people who were taking those risks.

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Speaker 2: Which actually, on the issue of reproductive justice and reproductive rights,

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Speaker 2: the issue of class is central, it really is. There

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Speaker 2: was another thing that was happening that I was profoundly

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Speaker 2: fascinated by, which is these in guentros. They were gatherings

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Speaker 2: of thousands of women activists, the incuentros that you talk about,

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Speaker 2: like you could just imagine that there were either panels

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Speaker 2: or that it was being exchanged in the hallways, which

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Speaker 2: is there's another way to have a abortion. Have you heard?

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about these incuentros,

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Speaker 2: what you know and how important it was when you

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Speaker 2: kind of uncovered that and you're reporting.

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Speaker 4: So these in quentro's.

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Speaker 1: Started happening in the mid nineteen eighties in Latin America,

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Speaker 1: especially in Argentina. They are very, very strong, and I

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Speaker 1: became obsessed with this one in quentro in particular that

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Speaker 1: was for all of Latin America, and it took place

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Speaker 1: in San Bernardo, which is.

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Speaker 4: A coastal city in Argentina.

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Speaker 1: I think it's more like a Florida kind of place,

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Speaker 1: so a place where people go on vacation, and it

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Speaker 1: was the low season, so they actually got better deals,

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Speaker 1: so that's why they decided to do it there. And

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Speaker 1: there were more than three thousand women. And I found

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Speaker 1: this incredible footage by a historian named Lola Luna who

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Speaker 1: filmed during the encuentro, and you see all these young

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Speaker 1: women with the like big glasses and perms, the way

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Speaker 1: it was that kind of place that looked like there

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Speaker 1: was a lot going on, like women were really kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking together about their priorities, about how to rethink gender,

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Speaker 1: how to rethink power structures.

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Speaker 4: And in the nineteen ninety and.

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Speaker 1: Quintro, a lot of things happened for abortion particularly, and

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Speaker 1: some Argentinian doctors actually decided it's time to do a

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Speaker 1: workshop only focused on abortion, because usually it would be like,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about health issues more generally, but that year

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Speaker 1: they were like, no, we're going to do one workshop.

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Speaker 4: Dedicated to abortion.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I interviewed mamel Bianco, one of the organizers of

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Speaker 1: this workshop, and she told me this, we suppose.

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Speaker 2: Are going to be a small group and we find

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Speaker 2: more than So what happened here all was abortion.

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Speaker 4: Abortion.

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Speaker 2: Everybody was talking about that if you open a kid

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Speaker 2: or something and explode.

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Speaker 1: Also, something else that happened that was very interesting is

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Speaker 1: that they declared that September twenty eighth was going to

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Speaker 1: be the International Day for Safe Abortion. So it really

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Speaker 1: became a priority for feminists in that particular meeting. And

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Speaker 1: then what surprised me in terms of our story following

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Speaker 1: what happened to the pill. What happened to me so

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Speaker 1: is that it's not like the Brazilians were doing like

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Speaker 1: a whole you know, PowerPoint presentation on how to use MISO.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if powerpoints existed at that.

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Speaker 1: Point, I know, but you know what I mean, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not like they went there and explained this is

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Speaker 1: what we use now and this is how you take

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Speaker 1: it and this is what you do.

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Speaker 4: It literally was something they were sharing in whispers.

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Speaker 1: It's something that they were sharing in the hallways when

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Speaker 1: they were having lunch together. And actually it had the

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Speaker 1: biggest impact of all right, Like that's the one thing

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Speaker 1: that really transformed access to a for for millions of

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Speaker 1: women in the future.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit more of Victoria

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Speaker 2: about the importance of the feminist movement in Latin America

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Speaker 2: and what it's doing today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that one thing that is important about

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Speaker 3: the feminist movement in Latin America is that it's not

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Speaker 3: focused on one issue, like people reach out one collective

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Speaker 3: can't cover everything, so they can form a lot of

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Speaker 3: alliances with each others even that if they're doing different things.

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Speaker 3: And one example of that is the symbol for the

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Speaker 3: abortion rights movement in Latin America, which is the green bandana.

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Speaker 3: We actually spoke with Marta Alanis. She was one of

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Speaker 3: the activists who back in the early two thousands came

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Speaker 3: up with the idea of using the bandana. And this

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Speaker 3: is Marta Alanis to Mamozilla. Mala Alanis said that they

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Speaker 3: decided to wear a bean like the Madrees Mayo did.

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Speaker 3: These were a group of mothers in Argentina who protested

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Speaker 3: at Mayo Square during the military dictatorship, and they demanded

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Speaker 3: for their children who had been disappeared by the military

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Speaker 3: to be returned, and they all wore white bandanas over

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Speaker 3: their heads. Then this became a symbol for justice and

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Speaker 3: for human rights, and so Alani's and the abortion activists

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Speaker 3: decided to pay the so much, but they changed the color.

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Speaker 3: And Alanis also explained to us why they decided to

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Speaker 3: make the bandana greenna.

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Speaker 4: You know, if poor Elila is a total.

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Speaker 3: She says that purple was already taken by the feminist movement,

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Speaker 3: and for them also green symbolized life and nature, so

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Speaker 3: they decided to go with green. And the green bandana

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Speaker 3: eventually turned into the green wave movement in Latin America.

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Speaker 3: And it has this whole imagery of it's a movement,

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Speaker 3: it's massive and it can have a place for everyone.

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Speaker 3: So it's not like everyone has the same politics inside

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Speaker 3: the movement. They don't agree with everything. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of discussions of tactics and what are the specific objectives.

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Speaker 3: But it is a massive movement in Latin America around

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Speaker 3: women's rights.

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Speaker 2: Well, as you can tell, I'm a big fan of

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Speaker 2: the work, mostly because it's just really phenomenal journalism documenting

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Speaker 2: something we all need to know. So I have a

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Speaker 2: lot of takeaways myself. But you've been both immersed in

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Speaker 2: this reporting for a long time. It is out in

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Speaker 2: the world. Now, what's your takeaway after having dedicated like

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Speaker 2: a chunk of your journalistic endeavor to reporting on the network.

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Speaker 1: I think for me, one thing I've learned is that

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Speaker 1: the first thing that drove me to the story was

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Speaker 1: the pill and the discovery of the pill, and actually

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Speaker 1: through the reporting and spending time in Latin America following

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Speaker 1: how the information spread so quickly, how these women built

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Speaker 1: support systems around this pill, I understood that that was

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Speaker 1: the real story.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't only just this super creative discovery.

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Speaker 1: It was actually the fact that the women understood this

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Speaker 1: is powerful, even though maybe we don't have institutional support

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Speaker 1: to do this. And I was very interested in learning

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Speaker 1: that there was a whole tension and debate about how

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Speaker 1: far are you willing to go to make that happen.

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Speaker 1: How far are you willing to go to help others

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Speaker 1: in the way you think they should be helped, and

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Speaker 1: also that you can actually I don't want to sound cheesy,

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Speaker 1: but like there is power in the collective.

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Speaker 4: Actually trusting each other, building.

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Speaker 1: Something together is going to be a lot more powerful

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Speaker 1: than just relying on.

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Speaker 4: One pill you can buy at the pharmacy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean tiny tiny steps that you think, what

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Speaker 2: am I really changing here? It all adds up, Victoria,

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Speaker 2: take us out.

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Speaker 3: Just being able to follow this pill through all the decades,

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Speaker 3: follow the movement through all the countries and now to

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Speaker 3: the United States. I think you do see like a

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Speaker 3: very specific things that are happening in each place, the barriers,

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Speaker 3: the culture, but also like all of the testimonies of

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Speaker 3: the people who use the pill, who are supported by

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Speaker 3: either like a collective or someone a friend, a family, mother, someone.

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Speaker 3: The way this method is being used by the women,

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Speaker 3: how their experiences like mirror each other, going all the

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Speaker 3: way back to the eighties until now, I think that

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Speaker 3: was very.

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Speaker 2: Powerful, all the way back to the eighties. You know,

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Speaker 2: so again, listener, it's whispers among women that then lead

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Speaker 2: to super loud voices Thank you so much Marta Martinez

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Speaker 2: and Victoria Estradra for your reporting on our new series,

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Speaker 2: our collaboration with Embedded from NPR. It's called The Network,

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Speaker 2: and you are going to want to listen to this.

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Speaker 2: You are going to learn so much and it's because

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Speaker 2: of great journalists like Martin and Vittoria. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for your work.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Adiah.

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Speaker 2: Remember, dear listener, you can find all of the episodes

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Speaker 2: of the Network on MPR's Embedded feed or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts. This episode was produced by Sam Jay Leads.

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Speaker 2: It was edited by Benny le Ramirez. It was mixed

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Speaker 2: by jj Carubin. Fact checking for this episode by Roxana Aghiri.

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Speaker 2: Special thanks to the International Women's Media Foundation for funding

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Speaker 2: this reporting in Brazil. It's part of their Reproductive Health,

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Speaker 2: Rights and Justice in the America's initiative. The Futuro Plus

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Speaker 2: team includes production managers Francis Poon and Jessica Ellis, marketing

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Speaker 2: manager Luis Luna, development manager Genetzi Men, and engineers Gabriela

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Speaker 2: Bayez and Stephanie Lebou. The Latino USA team also includes

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Speaker 2: Roxana Guire, Julia Caruso, Felicia Doo, Minuez, Domiquinestrosa, Renaldo Leanos Junior,

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Speaker 2: Andrea Lopez Gruzsado, Julieta Martinelli, Monica Morelis Garcia, Tasha Sandoel

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Speaker 2: Nour Saudi and Nancy Trujillo. Fernando Echavari is our managing editor.

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Speaker 2: Benille Ramirez, Maria Garcia and I are co executive producers

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Speaker 2: and I'm your host Marino Jssa. Join us again on

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Speaker 2: our next episode. ETU Saves not Bay. Yes Bai.

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Speaker 3: Latino USA is brought to you in part by the

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Speaker 3: Levi Strauss Foundation, outfit movements and leaders fighting for a

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Speaker 3: more just and abundant world, with the support from the

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Speaker 3: International Women's Media Foundation as part of its Reproductive Health,

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Speaker 3: Rights and Justice in the America's initiative, and the v

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Speaker 3: Day Foundation