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Speaker 1: I'm Met, I'm Null, I'm Ben, and we are Stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. Each week we cover

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Speaker 1: the latest and strangest in fringe science, government cover ups,

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Speaker 1: allegations at the paranormal, and more. New episodes come out

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Speaker 1: every Friday on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, in anywhere else

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff Mob Never told

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Speaker 1: you from how stup works dot com. Come and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the second installment in our series on romantic comedies

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Speaker 1: a k a. Rom coms. It's right, this is our

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Speaker 1: whole summer series. So strap on your seat belts. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what's a good movie theater like, so, so

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Speaker 1: silence your cell phones. Silence your phones, although you're probably

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Speaker 1: listening to this on your phone, so don't silence your phone.

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Speaker 1: You could get some popcorn, an oversized carbonated beverage. Perhaps, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's all go to the lobby and start listening to

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Speaker 1: episode two in our summer series. Uh, and this is

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Speaker 1: when we start diving into the tropes of rom coms.

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Speaker 1: Are so many tired tropes, and this first one that

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Speaker 1: we're looking at is the one that I feel is

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Speaker 1: so common in so many different variations and themes across

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Speaker 1: the decades of rom coms that we have, and that

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Speaker 1: is the independent, career minded woman who won't be tamed

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Speaker 1: except she will, you know, as soon as she meets

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Speaker 1: a man. Now is she distinct from a career girl? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: career woman. And then there's the working girl, working girl,

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Speaker 1: that's what I'm thinking of, Working Girl Melanie Griffith. Of course,

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Speaker 1: we will of course list her in our timeline of

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Speaker 1: working women. So working Girl the movie is about a

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Speaker 1: working woman, not to be confused with a trope of

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Speaker 1: the working girls. Yes, hopefully all of our listeners are confused.

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Speaker 1: But eating popcorn, yes, oh I know, I I actually

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Speaker 1: do all of that. I'm prepared for this episode because

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Speaker 1: I ate some popcorn and some of it's in my teeth,

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Speaker 1: and it will probably work itself out at like a

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Speaker 1: really inopportune moment in the middle of this recording. I

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Speaker 1: can't wait. Yeah, so you're just gonna see me making

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Speaker 1: real weird faces over here. Sorry, uh, and listeners, when

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Speaker 1: that happens, I'll be sure to describe them to you

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Speaker 1: in detail. So let's get into the independent career focused

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Speaker 1: rom com leading lady who doesn't need a man, at

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Speaker 1: least she thinks she doesn't need a man. And of

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Speaker 1: course I say need a man because all of the

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Speaker 1: you know, this entire genre is completely heterosexually focused for

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Speaker 1: the most part. We will have an episode, by the way,

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Speaker 1: devoted to LGBT rom coms, and we'll also have an

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Speaker 1: episode later in the series dedicated to rom coms that

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Speaker 1: focus on people of color, because so many of the

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Speaker 1: movies that we are going to be talking about feature

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Speaker 1: white I want to say heroines, but they're not so

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Speaker 1: much heroin's. They're like just leading women who need to

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Speaker 1: be saved by a man. Yeah, straight white women who

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Speaker 1: are usually really bad at walking through like revolving doors,

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Speaker 1: or going up or down escalators, or generally walking with

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Speaker 1: things in their hands. Yeah, she might be a CEO,

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Speaker 1: but she can't carry a cup of coffee to save

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Speaker 1: her life. Oh certainly not. Um So in addition to

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Speaker 1: being generally clumsy, what are some hallmarks of this trope?

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Speaker 1: So basically, this is a woman character. She's focused on

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Speaker 1: her career, and possibly she is so career focused because

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Speaker 1: she has previously been burned by love or emotion before

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Speaker 1: in some way. Maybe she had a bad example of

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Speaker 1: her parents growing up, maybe she was burned by a boyfriend. Um.

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Speaker 1: And she also views people who need love as weak.

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Speaker 1: People tend to fear her. She's this scary, cold, witchy woman.

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Speaker 1: But part of that is because she's just like a man.

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Speaker 1: She acts like a man, and she needs to be

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Speaker 1: put in her place. Yeah. Um, so could you say

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Speaker 1: that that she is kind of married to her job?

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Speaker 1: I could say that indeed, And this trope I mean,

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Speaker 1: in a way, it's another form of a magical makeover,

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Speaker 1: because even though she well, she does actually usually go

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Speaker 1: through some kind of wardrobe change. Out of her yes,

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Speaker 1: out of the pencil skirts and stilettos, and into what

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Speaker 1: Gingham was loose Gingham or something. Yes, oh man, I

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Speaker 1: want to be that woman in a Gingham Captain. Um.

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Speaker 1: But after she falls in love, whether she even knows

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Speaker 1: it or not at the time, suddenly she becomes more vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: more stereotypically feminine, and open to love, and she realizes

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Speaker 1: that her priorities have been all out of whack. Caroline

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Speaker 1: so wrong. She's been going for the corner office when

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Speaker 1: she should have been going for the guy. In the corner,

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Speaker 1: maybe office or just in the corners, just like lurking,

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Speaker 1: it's the guy in the corner. I don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: probably Harry Connick Jr. Based on based on this genre,

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Speaker 1: Harry Kuneck Jr. Or Ryan Reynolds. Okay, can I have

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Speaker 1: for Ryan Reynolds right off the bat? Harry Knnick Junior

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Speaker 1: makes me so angry? You all, this might not be

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Speaker 1: your popcorn face. But Caroline has a very raised eyebrow.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, I do I listen. I'm not in control

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Speaker 1: of my eyebrows. Okay, But Harry Connick Jr. I feel,

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Speaker 1: I literally feel like I've brought this up on the

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Speaker 1: podcast before about how angry he makes me in Hope

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Speaker 1: Floats with Sandra Bullock, Well maybe I talked about it

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Speaker 1: on our Facebook live that like, first of all, his

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Speaker 1: neck really bothers me. But secondly and Hope Floats, he

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Speaker 1: like has to coerce her into being in a relationship

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Speaker 1: with him and she's not ready. But anyway, so that's

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Speaker 1: why I opted for Ryan Reynolds. But the message of

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Speaker 1: these independent woman lad rom coms, not surprisingly are that

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Speaker 1: love and relationships are paramount, but also that women should

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Speaker 1: know their place and the key formula and driving force

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Speaker 1: behind these plot lines, and we touched on this idea

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Speaker 1: in our introductory episode is the heteronormative battle of the

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Speaker 1: sexes that depicts anxieties about women's changing roles in society basically,

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Speaker 1: and this results in a change and evolution not for

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Speaker 1: the man, not for society, but just for the woman,

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Speaker 1: because that's this, this battle of the sexes allows her

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Speaker 1: to become a quote better woman. And several of the

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Speaker 1: rom com scholars that we that we read for this

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Speaker 1: episode addressed this idea, the the almost drawing a line

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Speaker 1: such a distinct the line between men and women and

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Speaker 1: masculinity and femininity and what is appropriate in these gender cultures,

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Speaker 1: and how important that is to drive the conflict and

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Speaker 1: drive the storyline, but that it has to resolve itself

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Speaker 1: by these two people putting aside their personal interests, so

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Speaker 1: the woman's marriage to her career for instance, and joining

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Speaker 1: with a man to form a long term union. And

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Speaker 1: this is crucial because, as to mar Jeffers McDonald writes

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Speaker 1: in her book Romantic Comedy, boy Meets Girl Meets Genre,

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Speaker 1: the basic ideology the romantic comedy genre supports is the

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Speaker 1: primary importance of the couple. So you've got the scary, cold,

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Speaker 1: witchy career woman and like the you know, slightly looser,

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Speaker 1: more creative man who comes in to save her and

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Speaker 1: bring her around to his viewpoint. Um. And and this

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Speaker 1: has to happen. The the battle of the sexes has

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Speaker 1: to be solved one by the man so that they

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Speaker 1: can form this union, because that's what romantic comedies are

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Speaker 1: all about, although of course we would be led to

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Speaker 1: believe that the woman is really winning because she is

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Speaker 1: romantically desirable and people will like her more at the

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Speaker 1: end of the film. And in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: Caroline reading all of these rom com scholars which I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad exists, Oh man, rom com scholarship is real

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Speaker 1: fun reading. Um. What kept coming to mind those how

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Speaker 1: it reflects the workplace gender role tensions that have existed

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Speaker 1: that we've talked about on the podcast a number of

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Speaker 1: times ever since women first started entering, like secretarial roles.

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Speaker 1: In particular, when you had the first man drain in

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Speaker 1: the Civil War, you know those old Civil War rom

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Speaker 1: com Oh sorry, I was busy picturing a man drain.

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Speaker 1: It's like a big bathtub drain with all these men's

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Speaker 1: soldiers going down there they um. But once the Civil

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Speaker 1: War ends, of course, unlike World War Two where Rosie

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Speaker 1: the Riter goes home, you know, the women stayed in

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Speaker 1: the office. And that's where you start to have all

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Speaker 1: of these concerns about like, well, single women are out

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Speaker 1: of the home, they're having these jobs, are making their

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Speaker 1: own money. Uh, these men might be sexually attracted to them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's going on. We have never been able to leave

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Speaker 1: those worries behind. Never, We've never really been able to

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Speaker 1: overcome it. And we got into sort of a great sparkling,

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Speaker 1: adorable period with screwball romantic comedies, which we talked in

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Speaker 1: depth about in our introductory episode. And and that was

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Speaker 1: a great moment to look at career women in movies, UM,

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Speaker 1: because these women tended to be on equal footing, even

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Speaker 1: if not literally in the workplace equal They were still

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Speaker 1: trading all of these sparkling witticisms with their male counterparts.

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Speaker 1: But that isn't always true before and it isn't always

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Speaker 1: true after. But one big difference with the screwball genre

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen thirties especially is that a lot of

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Speaker 1: those leading ladies who were subverting those gender roles were

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Speaker 1: simply heiresses. They were wealthy women. They weren't necessarily like

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Speaker 1: working women who were actively competing with men in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: Lots of layers, so many layers. You'll never watch Bridget

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Speaker 1: Jones quite the same. Oh, I know, and I love

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Speaker 1: that you bring up Bridget Jones because speaking about layers

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Speaker 1: and Bridget Jones, it just makes me think of the

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Speaker 1: sea through shirt she wears in the office. So fewer layers.

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Speaker 1: It actually made me think of her her spanx like underwear. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: the worst layer, the tightest layer, of course. Um. But

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Speaker 1: if we look not at Bridget Jones, who was a

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Speaker 1: working she's more of the working girl trope. But if

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Speaker 1: we look more at the working woman who is the

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Speaker 1: witchy executive, she is Sandra Bullock in the proposal, it's

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Speaker 1: all about the classic Taming of the Shrew. That's that is,

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Speaker 1: that is the thread through all of this stuff. And

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Speaker 1: there is a scholar who looks at Shrew's in history. Uh.

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Speaker 1: This is louise O V. S Vari, who wrote an

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Speaker 1: analysis for the journal Comparative Literature and Culture pointing to uh,

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Speaker 1: the sixteenth century William Shakespeare. Yes, yes, yeah, I think you.

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Speaker 1: I think you have. He was in the movie Shakespeare

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Speaker 1: in Love. Oh that's yeah, yeah, exactly with this little

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Speaker 1: got um. Well so, yeah, sixteenth century we get Kate,

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Speaker 1: who is the shrew needing the taming, But she is

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Speaker 1: just part of a much larger and more in depth

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Speaker 1: and like centuries old storytelling trope that's existed across cultures

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Speaker 1: and across time. And apparently these stories were supposed to

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Speaker 1: be really funny, but a lot of the examples that

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Speaker 1: zvari sites, especially from like Eastern European literature, are horrifying.

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Speaker 1: Usually involves a woman being beaten to the brink of death,

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Speaker 1: often then wrapped in animal skins. Yeah, I'm beaten some

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Speaker 1: more and maybe beaten some more and then uh possibly

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Speaker 1: raped by her new husband. Yeah. And what's interesting And

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Speaker 1: I can't remember which film it is at the moment,

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Speaker 1: but it's from the thirties. I believe that has a

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Speaker 1: variation on this whole Taming of the Shrew, like the

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Speaker 1: old trope in storytelling, not literally Taming of the Shrew

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Speaker 1: from Shakespeare. But this woman in this film marries a

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Speaker 1: man and to like set her in her place, he

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Speaker 1: ends up almost starving her. Like but it's hot it's funny,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a hilarious romp into a new relationship.

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Speaker 1: And and she's got to prove how cool she has

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Speaker 1: proved her metal by like putting a with like eating

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Speaker 1: stale bread and cheese. Well, at least that film did

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Speaker 1: not also depict one other hallmark of his classic shrew

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Speaker 1: taming stories that involved the husband torturing animals and usually cats,

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Speaker 1: in front of the wife. Yeah. So there's this one

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Speaker 1: story from Eastern Europe that has the man he's trying

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Speaker 1: to teach his new wife a lesson. Here's how you

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Speaker 1: take care of me, your husband, because I can't do anything,

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Speaker 1: and you're the wife, so you have to do everything.

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Speaker 1: So he demands that the cat get him water to

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Speaker 1: wash his hands. Well, you know what happens. So then

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Speaker 1: he kills the cat because the cat doesn't bring him water.

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Speaker 1: He demands the dog go bring him water to wash

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Speaker 1: his hands, kills the dog because the dog doesn't bring

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Speaker 1: him water, demands the horse bring him water to wash

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Speaker 1: his hands. Kills the horse. Then turns to his wife

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Speaker 1: and says, you bring me water to wash my hands. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I hope that. She then pulls a Godfather move

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Speaker 1: leaves that horse in his bed and gets out of

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Speaker 1: their Yeah, I don't think that's how it is. Yet

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Speaker 1: I don't think it is either. But at the heart

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Speaker 1: of this narrative is those power dynamics between a married

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Speaker 1: heterosexual couple, and as Vesfari writes, they for centuries, these

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Speaker 1: stories of reflected anxieties about insubordinate female behavior in a

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Speaker 1: male dominated marital system. And of course though they end

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Speaker 1: with the quote unquote happy ending and atonement of the

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Speaker 1: woman committing to that submissive and subordinate role. So if

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Speaker 1: we look at a timeline of these characters in Hollywood

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Speaker 1: starting in the midnight teen thirties, there's this theme of independence,

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Speaker 1: a woman's independence being her ultimate foiball. Really, So if

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Speaker 1: we go to five, we have Betty Davis starring in

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Speaker 1: Front Page Woman, which the title that sounds pretty cool, right,

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Speaker 1: front Page Woman, Hello, she must be successful right now,

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Speaker 1: She's just a hapless gal reporter who really wants to

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Speaker 1: impress her reporter boyfriend, who of course keeps undermining her

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Speaker 1: because but she finally gets a scoop and proves her

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Speaker 1: worth despite the fact that she is a woman and

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Speaker 1: her femininity makes her so hapless. So this would be

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Speaker 1: more of an example, I guess of a working girl,

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Speaker 1: because it doesn't sound like she's cold, she's just yeah.

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Speaker 1: But it is a great example of just showing well,

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Speaker 1: what are what are women doing in the workplace? So

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Speaker 1: she's still that career woman, she's still pursuing that job

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Speaker 1: outside of the home. But it's a great example of

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Speaker 1: people making the movie who were uncomfortable with an ambitious

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Speaker 1: woman and had to show her a kind of stupid,

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Speaker 1: which makes me think of Confessions of a Shopaholic, right right, right,

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Speaker 1: And she is also that aspiring journalist or aspiring writer,

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Speaker 1: but she's portrayed as like so stupid, Like she can't

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Speaker 1: control her finances, she can't string a sentence together, she

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Speaker 1: can't get her life together, and like love is the

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Speaker 1: only thing that sets her straight. Finally, well, of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but in between those two and whatever year that terrible

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Speaker 1: movie was put out, we do have some good examples. Um.

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Speaker 1: We talked about this movie in our last episode, uh

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties His Girl Friday with Rosalind Russell starring as Hildi.

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Speaker 1: So this is an example of an ambitious career woman

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Speaker 1: who was going to give up her career for a man,

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Speaker 1: but she ends up with the right guy, Carrie Grant,

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Speaker 1: who also loves his own career in journalism. Thanks to

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Speaker 1: this falling in the screwball genre. Yeah, I mean, and

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Speaker 1: I of his girl Friday. I don't want to just

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Speaker 1: reiterate everything that I said last episode, Um, but this is,

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Speaker 1: like you said, a positive example in this genre because

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Speaker 1: Carrie Grant knows how good Hilt he is and he

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Speaker 1: can't stand a to see her with her bumbling fiancee

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Speaker 1: who's like he's not good enough for her, but also

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Speaker 1: selfishly he's like, she's she's the best reporter I've got.

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Speaker 1: I can't lose her. So it allows her brilliance to shine. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's probably the last best example that

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Speaker 1: we have in this timeline, because when you go to

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Speaker 1: ninety two, they all kissed the Bride, starring Joan Crawford

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Speaker 1: as m j Uh. This movie was described in Variety

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Speaker 1: in n two as quote another in the current Hollywood

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Speaker 1: cycle of girl immersed in biz versus irresponsible mail Uh movie,

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Speaker 1: And this is part of what one scholar called the

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Speaker 1: career woman's cycle that sought to correct working women's masculine

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Speaker 1: behaviors with love. So she's you know, before she finds love.

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Speaker 1: She has the severe hair and the and the you know,

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Speaker 1: power suits, and to me, she looks great and she's

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Speaker 1: in charge. She's the boss lady. But this is clearly

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Speaker 1: something that must be corrected well. And that's the same

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Speaker 1: year that Katherine Hepburn's Woman of the Year comes out,

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Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about in more detail in

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Speaker 1: the second half of the podcast, but it also follows

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Speaker 1: a very similar formula. Yeah, people are just not down

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Speaker 1: with women remaining powerful uh and jumping ahead though to

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Speaker 1: N seven. This is when we get Annie Hall with

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Speaker 1: Diane Keaton in the starring role, and her blossoming career

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Speaker 1: drives a wedge between her and Alvi because she just

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Speaker 1: doesn't need him anymore. And this is an example of

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Speaker 1: the nervous romance genre that started to emerge around this time.

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Speaker 1: Because keep in mind too, like we we mentioned before

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Speaker 1: in the last episode that the seventies and eighties is

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Speaker 1: when you start getting more people being like, oh love

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Speaker 1: is it? The solution of things doesn't really exist. But

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Speaker 1: in the eighties we do have the heyday of women

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Speaker 1: in the workplace. Like up to that point in time,

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Speaker 1: like you have more women working outside the home than

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Speaker 1: ever before. So this, it seems like this is when

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Speaker 1: you start to also have this ethos of can she

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Speaker 1: have it all? That becomes the new question, not the

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Speaker 1: thing in five with Bettie Davis's Front Page Woman, where

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Speaker 1: it's like, obviously women are ridiculous who want to work?

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Speaker 1: That's just a foolish notion. But now we've gotten to

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Speaker 1: the point of like, all right, well you got the

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Speaker 1: shoulder pads, you've got the money, but can you get

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Speaker 1: the man and the baby? Um? And one example from

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Speaker 1: that I could barely get through. It was Broadcast News

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Speaker 1: starring Holly Hunt as Jane, and I wanted to love it.

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Speaker 1: I watched it a while back, and Um, I was

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Speaker 1: watching it with my Ma Boo, and he had to

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Speaker 1: get up and leave because it was so ridiculous. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it has been so long since I've seen it. What

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Speaker 1: makes it, I literally what makes it so uncomfortable? I

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Speaker 1: think just the sheer tropishness of it. Um. Jane is

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Speaker 1: the journalist at the center of a love triangle. She's ambitious,

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Speaker 1: but of course because she's so ambitious, she doesn't have

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Speaker 1: much of a social life or success in love. And

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Speaker 1: so it sat back and forth tension. But it all

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Speaker 1: just I don't know nothing. Nothing felt very genuine about it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like when I was watching it,

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Speaker 1: I do remember thinking, just let her work. That that

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Speaker 1: was really the only thing I remember my my impression

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Speaker 1: being from that movie. Because then at the end she

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Speaker 1: ends up alone. I just remembered why I hated it.

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Speaker 1: She cries all the time. Uh, Holly Hunter's character cries

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Speaker 1: like fifteen times in that movie. Um. And it was

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Speaker 1: the strangest thing because you have her yes, like super ambitious, um,

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Speaker 1: but also in private, you know, she has this feminine weakness. Listeners.

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Speaker 1: I know that a lot of people love broadcast news,

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Speaker 1: so I am so open to hearing more positive reviews

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Speaker 1: of it. But it was it was a tough one

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Speaker 1: for me to get through. Well, I mean a lot

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Speaker 1: of those a lot of those movies are one that

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Speaker 1: is not from the same era. Uh well, when it's

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Speaker 1: not hard to get through for me, but it's from

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Speaker 1: the same eras Working Girl Melanie Griffith as tests with

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Speaker 1: sky high hair that she cuts off because she says, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what, a serious woman needs serious hair or

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Speaker 1: something like that. And it's so that movie stars her

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Speaker 1: and Suppourtey Weaver and Harrison Ford and Joan Q. Sack.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Oh, that's right. It's like cat nip for me.

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Speaker 1: I love it. And what is so fabulous about this

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Speaker 1: movie because there's like a whole lot of like uh,

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Speaker 1: Shakespearean drama going on, like Deception and Masquerade, like that

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Speaker 1: whole thing. But Melanie Griffith is ambitious. She wants a

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Speaker 1: better role for herself in the company than being a secretary.

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Speaker 1: So she ends up you know, I'm not gonna spoil everything.

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Speaker 1: I'll just the end um, but you know, she ends

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Speaker 1: up adopting this persona wooing Harrison Ford, oh so dreamy

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Speaker 1: in that movie, Oh my god, um, because he's so

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Speaker 1: impressed by her gumption and her smarts and abilities and

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Speaker 1: probably her haircut, I don't know. But at the end

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Speaker 1: she is allowed, not only allowed by the screenwriters to

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Speaker 1: continue to be this career woman, but Harrison Ford literally

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Speaker 1: packs her a lunch and tells you to, you know,

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Speaker 1: have a great day. Oh man. And that's wonderful because

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Speaker 1: that is a time well when have we not been

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Speaker 1: in a time of people being anxious about women working?

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Speaker 1: But like, this is totally a time like coming out

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Speaker 1: of second wave feminism when you're starting to get uh,

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Speaker 1: feminism being a really ugly word, and oh, we're totally

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Speaker 1: in post feminism now, people, we don't need it any more.

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Speaker 1: Women are in the workplace and people are so anxious about,

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Speaker 1: you know, women being masculinized. But here is adorable Melanie

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Speaker 1: Griffith being a badass in the workplace and getting the

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Speaker 1: job and the man and Sigourney Weaver just well, she

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Speaker 1: flies into space and that's how she became Ripley. Actually,

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Speaker 1: and in the movie Alien little known fact one in Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: Hollywood fact um. So if we jump way forward to

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Speaker 1: two thousand one, we see things have changed. If we

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Speaker 1: look at the Wedding Planner starring j Lo I literal

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Speaker 1: really walked out of that movie. Really did you go

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Speaker 1: see it in the theater? Number one? Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: in high school. I was young and dumb. Although, as

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Speaker 1: I confess in our previous rom com episode, I love

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Speaker 1: a Matthew McConaughey rom com. I find him charming. He

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Speaker 1: gets charming, you know. Yeah on that plot line, I

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Speaker 1: literally like, I don't even want to think about it,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, you know, she's super driven. Event planner,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the careers that women are allowed

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Speaker 1: to have in these new era rom coms. UM. And

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Speaker 1: you know she's she's wooed Wood I tell You by

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Speaker 1: Matthew McConaughey. Same year, though, you get Vivica Fox starring

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Speaker 1: in two Can play that game, And she is this

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Speaker 1: arrogant game playing woman who's finally put in her place

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Speaker 1: when her boyfriend plays those games right back. And she's

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Speaker 1: an example in a couple of sources we read of

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Speaker 1: the sapphire stereotype, the domineering black woman who doesn't need

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Speaker 1: a man pushes them away. You know, she's up ending

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Speaker 1: gender norms of of needing a man to be the

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Speaker 1: head of her household. And oh, thank goodness, her boyfriend

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Speaker 1: comes in to save the day and put her in

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Speaker 1: her place. Yeah. The sapphire stereotype never ultimately elevates um

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Speaker 1: the woman in question, but is used to like subvert

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Speaker 1: any of her actual intelligence and strength. UM. Now, if

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Speaker 1: we if we move in and take a sharp right

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Speaker 1: turn from that to two thousand twos Sweethome, Alabama, we

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Speaker 1: see this other common theme that UM that emerges in

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Speaker 1: the two thousands of the Escape to Small Towns like

405
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Speaker 1: leaving the urban for the small town where you can

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Speaker 1: finally discover yourself, get away from the hustle and bust

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Speaker 1: all Reese Weatherspoon, leave behind your fashion career in New

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Speaker 1: York and come on home and Alabama, y'all has some

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Speaker 1: sweet tea and fall in love. Yeah, where she's able

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Speaker 1: to finally dust off that city living, which is clearly false.

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Speaker 1: It's a false performance of whatever to find her true

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Speaker 1: roots in rural America, which is like so patronizing, it's

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Speaker 1: so like. But is that not just a rehashing of

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Speaker 1: the idea we talked about from It Happened One Night

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Speaker 1: and similar movies from the thirties and forties, where like,

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Speaker 1: the rich heiress learns about herself by either having to

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Speaker 1: be poor and give up her money, or Claudette Colbert

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Speaker 1: and It Happened One Night takes this cross country train

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Speaker 1: journey and and realizes that, you know, the common man

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Speaker 1: is better. Yeah, it's like rediscovering these kind of homey

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Speaker 1: value values, right, which are portrayed in films like this

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Speaker 1: as so much more superior and more valuable than anything

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Speaker 1: she could have possibly learned as a business owner in

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Speaker 1: a city. Because that's an authentic woman, you know, close

425
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: to the home. And in the following year we have

426
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: another update, but this one an update on Shakespeare's Taming

427
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: of the Shrew with deliver Us from Eva, with Gabrielle

428
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: Union playing the titular role of Eva, who is a

429
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: bossy perfectionist. Yeah, and if only she had ll cool

430
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: j to come in and put her set her right,

431
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: oh lll um. And then two thousand seven's Knocked Up,

432
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: which has had so much controversy or we'll had so

433
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: much controversy around it because of Starkatherine Heigel's comments and

434
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: Vanity fair So. In the movie, she's a journalist. She

435
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: has a slacker boyfriend and Seth Rogan and he basically

436
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: kind of ends up the hero almost for his evolution,

437
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 1: like he becomes more responsible and like decides that he

438
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: wants to help be a father, right, Like that's kind

439
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: of how it goes. Yeah, I mean, well he's not

440
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: even he became coms her boyfriend, but she becomes pregnant

441
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: after a one night stand with him, and she realizes

442
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: it and it's like, oh, this this guy, you know,

443
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: got me pregnant. I'm gonna keep it dot dot dot,

444
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: which was the point in the film, when I was like, huh, okay,

445
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: so right off the bat, we have um it's called

446
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: an interesting choice made uh by high goals, you know,

447
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: very conventionally attractive, very successful, very put together character. Um.

448
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: And then she's like, Okay, yes, Seth Rogan, you You

449
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: and I would never date in real life, but let's

450
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: let's make this thing happen. Yeah. And she told Vanity

451
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: Fair that she thought the movie was a little sexist,

452
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: claiming that it paints the women is shrewe's there, we

453
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: have it as humorless and uptight, and it paints the

454
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: men as lovable, goofy, fun loving guy. She was basically

455
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: blacklisted from Hollywood after that when that happened. All the

456
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: true story full disclosure. I never liked her because of

457
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: her Grey's anatomy character. I just haven't been able to.

458
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: I just so, if you had to go so, if

459
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: you had to spend the day with either Katherine Heigel

460
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: or Harry Knnick Junior, Caroline, oh lord, would it be Ah?

461
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: She's really thinking hard folks. I guess Katherine Heigel because

462
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: Harry Knick Jr. Is something about him. It's so weird

463
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: to me. But I do agree with her assertion about

464
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: the women in Knocked Up being portrayed as shrews, because yeah,

465
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: she's humorless. But also Leslie Mann, who plays Paul Red's wife,

466
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: is similarly, you know, just always having to keep Paul

467
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: Red in line, whereas the guys are laid back and

468
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: funny and they go to circus lay on mushrooms and

469
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: it's luterous. Well, there is something about Judd apatow movies

470
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: that leave a bad taste in my health, because he

471
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: they seem to be very um preachy about setting women right,

472
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: having them make the quote unquote better woman choice, Like

473
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: even even um train Wreck. I hated train Wreck because

474
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: even though like if that was a real life person,

475
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: if she were your friend in real life, you would

476
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: applaud Amy Scheimer's character for making better life choices. But

477
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: it was such to me a cinematic cop out because

478
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, no, good, everything is set right with

479
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: the world where the woman is choosing the relationship rather

480
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: than remaining single. And so it's amazing to me, like

481
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: when I watch Girls, for instance, which Judd Apatow has

482
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: a hand in, like I'm so glad that Hannah horror

483
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: Vath is allowed to be as terrible as she is. Yeah,

484
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: I mean I train wreck aside. I think that his

485
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: uh comedies are often more about the men and women

486
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: are just like things for them to kind of bounce

487
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: off of, and just about arrested development and the fear

488
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: of aging. Um. But yeah, I mean there there's definitely

489
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: some one dimensionality that that often happens, um. Although it's

490
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: not obviously it's not just Avatae. It's the genre in general,

491
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: because you have to have some kind of conflict, you

492
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: have to have foils, and then you have to have

493
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: some type of happy ending. Although of course there's the

494
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: ending and knocked up, which is um very graphic and

495
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: it is a crowning in a in a delivery room.

496
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: So moving on from that, pivoting away from that, UM,

497
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: I feel like The Proposal from two thousand nine starring

498
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: Sandra Bullock is like the quintessential working woman film because

499
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: she is icy, she has those business suits and those stilettos,

500
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: and she, you know, just tells Ryan Reynolds what to

501
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: do to the point of saying, yes, you're going to

502
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: pretend that we are getting married? Right? Yeah, no, I live.

503
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: This is the movie I think about when I think

504
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: about this genre. I think I watched it at home

505
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: with my mother as she dozed on the couch, uh,

506
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: and it was I think my face was stuck in

507
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: a perma like sneer watching it, because it's it follows

508
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: that formula where the icy career woman like encounters an

509
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: actual loving family who genuinely care for each other and

510
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 1: they're earnest and their love and you know, she's finally

511
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: thawed by Mary Steen Virgin and the guy who plays

512
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: Coach from Coach or the guy who plays uh the

513
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: granddad and parenthood. Sure I've actually never seen Parenthood listeners,

514
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: but yeah, she she finally was like, oh, this is

515
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: what love is supposed to be. And so then she's

516
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: thawed by Ryan Reynolds, who well he does more than

517
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: just thaw me. I O um, what I didn't real life,

518
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: so I hadn't put together before reading for this episode.

519
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: Caroline was how I think that it came out. Yeah,

520
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: it came out before the Proposal two weeks notice, also

521
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: starring Sandra Bullock, and she is also an ambitious working

522
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: woman who has no social life, but it's because she

523
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 1: is the Ryan Reynolds to Hugh Grants billionaire like the

524
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, zany billionaire character. Now of course, you know,

525
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: being the exact like over involved boss is portrayed as

526
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: like lovable with Hugh Grant, and of course they start

527
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 1: you know, they end up falling in love with spoiler alert, Um.

528
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: But it's funny to see that she's played sort of

529
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: both sides of this this trope. I do love Sandra

530
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: Bullock though, oh yeah, I mean she's a terrific rom

531
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: com leading lady. UM. And I also though didn't realize

532
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: I I haven't seen this UM, but I think I

533
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: think if you watched the trailer, you've kind of seen

534
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: the whole thing. But New in Town Own starring um

535
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: Renee Zellwegger in a very non Bridget Jones type of role,

536
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: which I think it came out around the time as

537
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: the Proposal, because I've never heard of it. She's got

538
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: the pencil skirts, she's got the stilettos. You know, they

539
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: have the boardroom scene where you know, she's she's the

540
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: lone woman, and she ends up having to go to

541
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: Minnesota small town, leave the city for a small town

542
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: where she meets wait for Caroline Harry Connick Jr. But

543
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: in the end, she is able to Uh to have

544
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: the job, to have a guy and the small town.

545
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: She ends up relocating to Minnesota, but she becomes the

546
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: again spoiler alert, she becomes the CEO of the company

547
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: that she was first sent there to manage. Yeah, okay,

548
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: I do remember, like I'm I'm vaguely remembering knowing about

549
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: this storyline, but I've never seen the movie. Like, I

550
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: literally have no picture in my head of it. I mean,

551
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's pretty much just a Midwestern

552
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: version of the proposal, a little bit of a knockoff. Um,

553
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: So I mean all that to say that, I mean

554
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: there there's very much a formula to this. Yeah. So,

555
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier in the podcast the quote career woman

556
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: comedy cycle. This was a term coined by I can

557
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: only assume her last name is pronounced glitter Uh, Katrina Glitter.

558
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it, but it seems magical.

559
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: Well also, yeah, because it's spelled g l I t

560
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: r E. And yes, I'm going to call it glitter too. Yeah. Yeah, so,

561
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: so Miss glitter Uh talks about how in the late

562
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 1: thirties we get the emergence of this career woman's cycle

563
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: with d nine's Double Wedding and the film Honeymoon in Bali.

564
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: And this sub genre peaked around forty two, declined through

565
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: the war, but then saw a revival in the wake

566
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: of World War two. And that should be clicking in

567
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: your brain with what we said around the top of

568
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 1: the podcast about anxieties around women in the workplace. And again,

569
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: this genre does involve the good old battle of the

570
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: sexes and the source of conflict rather than the later

571
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: screwball genre that we would see or or I guess

572
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: the screwball genre starts two starts here as well. But

573
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: this is different. Well, this is this is post screwball,

574
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: because screwball is more thirties, right, Okay. And then I

575
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: mean basically the screwball genre like couldn't survive in a

576
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: wartime climb, right, That's what it was, Yeah, because it

577
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: was so yeah, so effervescent, egalitarian. Yeah yeah, people were like,

578
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to see that happiness and joy in equality. Um,

579
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: but you also have women going to work, you know,

580
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: that's the big thing, exactly exactly. And so rather than

581
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: the conflict being all of the witty repartee between the

582
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: man and the woman in the lead roles, the source

583
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: of the conflict in these career woman comedies is the

584
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: woman's career and the disproportionate energy and time she puts

585
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: into it, meaning that while the woman might be in

586
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: a position of authority, the film is warning us that

587
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: her success in the man's world comes at a high cost,

588
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 1: and that cost is a social life, and that cost

589
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: is a love life. And so we just see this

590
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: heroine sort of struggling in an unnatural gendered position. Basically well,

591
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: and as Glitter also underscores in her book, it's not

592
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: just the job that's the problem. I mean, it's it's

593
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: the woman herself is the problem, kind of like j

594
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: Lo in The Wedding Planner, where she literally needs to

595
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: be saved from herself because her life is just become nothing.

596
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: It's become nothing but a job planning too many events,

597
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: too many weddings. Um. So the guy comes in to

598
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: solve this problem, which is not how do we become

599
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: you know, better people together, but rather, oh, how can

600
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: I become a better woman that more people like? How

601
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: can I become kinder to my family members and more

602
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: liked by my coworkers or underlings and also sexually attractive

603
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: to this dude. Yeah, And so Glitter writes about what

604
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: is natural and positive in men, which is power leadership,

605
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: becomes unnatural and negative in women, signifying things like frigidity

606
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: and repressed maternal emotions like if only she are more

607
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: feminine and she could have all the babies. Uh. And

608
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: the woman ends up in these films adopting a more

609
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: submissive role, which Glitter points out is like, is this

610
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: not her just performing femininity which is unnatural for for

611
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: this character, for this person. Um, you know, therefore acknowledging

612
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: the error of her ways in ever, in ever having

613
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: performed anything other than true pure femininity. Well, and speaking

614
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: of true pure femininity, this is where we start to

615
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: see that contrast really solidified between the working woman Allah

616
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: Sandra Bullock and the proposal versus a working girl who

617
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: I would say that Meg Ryan and You've got mail is.

618
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: While she is a business owner, she's more of the

619
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: working girl because she's not competitive, you know, with Joe

620
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: Fox a k A. Tom Hanks. Um, I don't know

621
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: that you can a k a someone's actual name, by

622
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: the way, Sure yes, sure, um, but yeah, so you

623
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: have the more audible working girls in similar career focused movies,

624
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: where it's more the job is kind of just convenient.

625
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: It provides a meat cute or it just kind of

626
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: gives her something to do, flushes out her character a

627
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: little bit, but it's not the central, you know, like

628
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: the the crux of her character. It's not the driving

629
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: force of the romance. Um. So with working girls, you

630
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: tend to have more secretary, shop assistance, waitresses, essentially any

631
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 1: non threatening jobs, and also food service, uh, baking, these

632
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: these kinds of these more domestic types of work. Yeah,

633
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: things that are an acceptable substitute for the inevitable and

634
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: eventual real job, which is being a wife at home,

635
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: something that can easily just be set aside because she

636
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: has no real, true career ambitions of her own anyway.

637
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: So maybe she was just doing it to make some

638
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: extra money and till she found that prince charming and

639
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: a relationship that existed both on screen and off screen.

640
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: That is actually such a wonderful illustration of this whole

641
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: like punish, the career woman theme is the one between

642
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy. So earlier in the podcast,

643
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: I mentioned that Katherine Hepburn's Woman of the Year came

644
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: out in two and as we learned from Ms Glitter,

645
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: who Caroline, I'm gonna go ahead and say that she's

646
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: my favorite scholar, or at least my favorite scholar name

647
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: at this point. Um. Ms Glitter talked about how this

648
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: role was part of Katherine Hepburn's off screen comeback plan. Yeah.

649
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: So fascinating. So uh, Katherine Hepburn, you know, who was

650
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: very non traditional. She wore pans, and she was a

651
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: handsome woman. Much she was a handsome woman. She really was.

652
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: Um and and yes I have heard you listeners who

653
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: responded to our Prince episode. We will do an episode

654
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: on Katherine Hepburn and her mother one of these days.

655
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: Um So anyway, Yeah, she had a string of flop.

656
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: She's like, how do I get control back over my career? Well,

657
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: she ends up taking the reins behind the scenes. She

658
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: makes nineteen forties The Philadelphia Story, the play version of

659
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 1: which was written for her, and she secured the film

660
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: rights and Woman of the Year, which Glitter says demonstrate

661
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: this conscious effort on Hepburn's part to reclaim her star

662
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: persona by assimilating her otherness into the patriarchy. Wow, okay

663
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: translate please. Basically, in these roles Katherine Hepburn becomes that

664
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: career woman. She's beautiful, she's smart, she's powerful, but she's

665
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: not hyper feminine, and she's not hyper maternal, and thank god, masculine,

666
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: chin clefted Spencer Tracy comes along the set her straight.

667
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: And an irony that Glitter does point out though, about

668
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: these roles is that Hepper and traditionally, you know, wearing

669
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: the pants, actually never looks more feminine than she does

670
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: in these roles, you know. And in one of them,

671
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: I can't remember, I think it's a Woman of the Year.

672
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: She's wearing this gorgeous dress, this flowy, black, puffy, puffy concoction.

673
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: But at the same time that she's wearing it, she's

674
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: also exhibiting super like anti maternal tendency. She doesn't want

675
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: to stay home to take care of the refugee child

676
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: she and Sam have adopted, and she's leaving the man

677
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: in the feminine role of caring for the child. Well,

678
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: she goes out to accept an award, and so even

679
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: in that movie, Spencer Tracy's character even tells her she's

680
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: not a woman anymore, even though, as Glitter points out,

681
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: she's literally like the most feminine looking she's ever looked

682
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: in this role because she's so she's trying so hard

683
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: to drive home like, no, look me, I can conform

684
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: to these image standards, these optics that are set forth

685
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 1: for this industry. Meanwhile, I mean that is an interesting

686
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: like one to punch with Philadelphia Story and Woman of

687
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: the Year because Philadelphia Story, while yes we are in

688
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: the you know, the waning days of Screwball, it is

689
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: more of a screwball comedy where she plays more of

690
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: an aristype, but she does look dazzling throughout the whole thing.

691
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: I mean, she's basically in like an evening gown the

692
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: whole time. And you have Carrie Grant yet again like

693
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: coming in, um who romances her for the second time.

694
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it, it's fabulous. Um. So I

695
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: wonder if that was also an appealing contrast, you know,

696
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: to kind of have like both of the um, both

697
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: of those types of characters played in such quick succession. Yeah,

698
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: and I mean Woman of the Year really is a

699
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: perfect example of this career woman comedy with the woman

700
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: having to then conform to the man's expectations and points

701
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: of view. I mean, her character tests and his character

702
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: Sam get married after a whirlwind romance, but you know,

703
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: tests she knows nothing about how to take care of

704
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: a man, and she ends up putting her career first,

705
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: which drives Sam away. And then she goes to her

706
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: father's wedding. She has this epiphany about the true meaning

707
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: of marriage and commitment and romance. She tries to make

708
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: amends to Sam by cooking for him, but she fails

709
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: because what she's a hapless homemaker. She can't cook breakfast

710
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: and he finally the decides to stay and critic James Agee,

711
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: writing about this film wrote, for once strident, Catherine Hepburn

712
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: is properly subdued. Whoa yeah, man, Geeus Wow. Well and

713
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: what a contrast to to nineteen forties not Philadelphia story

714
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: starring Katherine Hepburn, but his girl Friday, which is another

715
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: love story between two journalists, which of course, you know

716
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: elevates Hildy the cracker Jack reporter, but in this one,

717
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: Spencer Tracy more of the Slab is a sports reporter

718
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: and she's the you know, the sharp columnust and her career,

719
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 1: you know, is kind of taken down a peg. That's

720
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: the problem rather than the solution. But what is happening

721
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: off screen too, is Katherine Hepburn's friends being surprised that

722
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: she also seemed to willingly and lovingly play a more

723
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: submissive role in her and Spencer Tracy's off screen romance. Yes, Yes,

724
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: and so. Glitter points out that her career parallels the

725
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: structure of the career woman comedy. You have this unfeminine,

726
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: ambitious woman who's tamed by the love of a strong man.

727
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: But the taming, so to speak, is a ruse because

728
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: it was Catherine who was pulling all the strings. She's

729
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: the one who cast Carrie Grant in Philadelphia story. She

730
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: specifically wanted him for that role. She was she was

731
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: no slouch in the business department. Um, the business department

732
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: where you go and you buy your business and and

733
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: you have you have it picked out for you. UM,

734
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: still trying to find that department. I get lost on

735
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: the way. I know, I know, I get lost in

736
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 1: the sandwich department. But um. Glitter writes that by acting

737
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 1: out her subordination on screen, Hepburn regains her power off screen.

738
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: Such interesting contrasting dynamics. I mean really haven't talked about

739
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: gaming the system, And by the system, I do mean

740
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. I want that as a T shirt. Katherine

741
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 1: Hepburn like gaming the system. I don't know, somebody who's

742
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: funnier can can or an artist can do that. Um.

743
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: But you know, we have the same cycle basically of

744
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: people being afraid of career women again in the nineteen

745
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: eighties really through through now. And this is something that

746
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: Emery professor Michelle Schreiber writes about in her book American

747
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: Post Feminist Cinema, Women, Romance and Contemporary Culture. She calls

748
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: twelve the post feminist romance cycle that reflects not only

749
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: contemporary women's anxieties about their multifaceted roles at home, in

750
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: the workplace, whatever, but also anxieties about women. So the

751
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 1: more things change, the more they stay the same. Well,

752
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: and in a more socio political context, you have the

753
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: rise of neoliberalism, and as that applies to feminism, this

754
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: is when things become more self centered, away all about

755
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: choice and you're on your own and it's up to

756
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: you to empower yourself and climb that ladder. Um. And

757
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: it's a time when, too, when feminism gets commodified, which

758
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: may or may not be why a lot of these

759
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: leading women also you know, lead very like comparatively lavish

760
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: lives on screen. All the writers have giant apartments in

761
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: New York. They all have killer wardrobes. You get a

762
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: movie like Confessions of a Shopoholic, which gag may speaking

763
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: of the nineties. But one quick note Caroline about neoliberalism

764
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: and rom coms, which that's a sentence I've never said before.

765
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: Um that I read in a book by Betty Kaklamana

766
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: Do called Genre Gender and the Effects of Neoliberalism, is

767
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: how in this in this era, there aren't as many

768
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: female sidekicks, like Sandra Bullock in The Proposal doesn't have

769
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: a sassy sidekick obviously because sisters doing it for herself.

770
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: Which I was like, oh, that's interesting to think about. Yeah,

771
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: because in Um Needless in Seattle and when Harry met Sally,

772
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: just for instance, those are two that have great, uh

773
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: like whole sidekicks storylines. Those sidekicks play a huge role.

774
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 1: But it seems like it's it's and we still see

775
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: sidekicks today, of course, but it's when you have the

776
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: films that are more like um A New to Town, Proposal, etcetera.

777
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 1: With the career woman, because Sleepless in Seattle, Meg Ryan's

778
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: not the ambitious career woman in that movie, and she's

779
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: not the ambitious career woman. And when Harry met Sally,

780
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: she's just you know, your average Jane. And but it

781
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: seems like, yeah, when you make that crossover to know

782
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: she's you know, head of the board or whatever, like

783
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: she's probably a feminist. That means she has no women friends. Interesting,

784
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: so many layers, so many way you know, I never

785
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: thought about that. That's a good point. Catman do kaclamanna

786
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: do yep uh zanna do um. Sorry, I'm not making

787
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 1: fun of your name. It's just like I'm doing word association.

788
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: I can't stop but shry her. So, Schreiber points to

789
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: this whole like neoliberalism, post feminism, so to speak, era

790
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: as the source of consumable fictional characters being served up

791
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: to women rather than real feminist leaders. So rather than

792
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: having a glorious Steinham as a feminist figurehead, you get

793
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: like an Ally mcbeel, who's not real. She's a concocted

794
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: creation of what powerful women are supposed to look like.

795
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: Question mark. Well, and I think it's the post feminist

796
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: powerful woman because, especially if we talk about Ally McBeal,

797
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 1: the first thing I thought about when you were saying

798
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: that in this context is the time magazine cover that

799
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: came out with feminism is dead. Alan Feel's face, yeah,

800
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: because her whole thing is like, yes, she's an attorney,

801
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 1: but she also wears those micro skirts, lots of makeup.

802
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: She's always me she's a wreck, and she's always in

803
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: some like falling apart relationship and she's falling apart and

804
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: her mouth is always slightly open. You're right, You're right, Um,

805
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: but I mean bringing us a full circle. She's married

806
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: to Harrison Ford in real life, so, um, so you

807
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: really can have it all. Letn't have Calissa Flockhart on

808
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: the show. I know I did actually want to bring

809
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: up the idea of having it all, because that's what

810
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: these movies, as Schreiber points out, in this era, are

811
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: trying to tell us almost like you don't need feminism anymore.

812
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: We're past all that mess. Like you can wear the

813
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: short skirt and have Prince Charming come save you and

814
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: still work really hard and be the chairwoman of the

815
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: board or the ceo um and you know, even if

816
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: you haven't frozen your eggs and you're still trying to

817
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: make partner, you can still have the perfect life. Now,

818
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: now that Prince Charming is here, and and that's anxiety

819
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: inducing because as we I feel like, as we've talked before,

820
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as having it all, doing it

821
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: all whatever. Well, and it's also it seems like the

822
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: men in these movies by this point are not as

823
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: threatened by a woman's career. There's just that aspect of

824
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: like she just has to be feminized more in some

825
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: kind of way. She can keep working, but she just

826
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: needs to. She just needs that Gingham Keftan Caroline right,

827
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: and I mean Schreiber told Huffington Post that, quote nobody

828
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: knows what to do with women after feminism because we

829
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: are quote post feminism. You have to have a leading

830
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: lady in a role where she has clearly benefited from feminism.

831
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 1: She's a career woman, she's independent, lives by herself, makes

832
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: her own money, all that jazz, But she still has

833
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: to have that romantic love. She has to end up

834
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: even if she's put it off to pursue the career,

835
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: she still has to end up in that long term

836
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: partnership well. And I think an interesting example of that

837
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: idea on screen is No Strings Attached, starring Natalie Portman

838
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: and a handsome man. It's not justin Timberly because he starts. Yeah,

839
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: mel coonis in basically the exact same movie, Ashton Kutcher.

840
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: She said, you can't mean Ashton Kutcher. Ashton Kutcher. Yeah.

841
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: So Natalie Portman plays this, uh, this no nonsense doctor,

842
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: which is one of the approved roles for a leading

843
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: women in romantic comedies. Um, and very much in a

844
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: quote unquote post feminist sense, Like she doesn't you know,

845
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: she's living on her own, she's successful, and she thinks

846
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: she doesn't even need a monogamous relationship. So she's even

847
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: just like having sex. And that's even one of the

848
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 1: newest developments in the genre too. Women like a train

849
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: wreck of like women openly having sex lives but then

850
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: being taught that, oh, actually monogamy is better. It's not

851
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: even necessarily marriage. It's just monogamy. Yeah, you better straighten

852
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: yourself out, sister. Get off that man entrain. Um, what

853
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: about the man drain? Does the man drain lead to

854
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 1: the man train? Yeah? I think so that's where they

855
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 1: end up. And tomar Jeffers McDonald, who's another one of

856
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: those rom com scholars who sided earlier, points out that

857
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 1: you know, we're at a time when most women are

858
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: in the out of the home workforce, but career women

859
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: in rom coms are generally portrayed as incompetent, like we

860
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, cruel or both. You're incompetent and you're cruel.

861
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: And she writes that she finds it quite insulting that

862
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: a career woman now is something that is so frowned upon.

863
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: She says that these roles are basically punishing the character

864
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: for being as out there and powerful and ambitious as

865
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: she is, and that, uh, clearly, you may be at

866
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: the top of your job, but what you actually need

867
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: as a man preferably a husband. Although again I would

868
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: I would respond to McDonald who I don't I don't

869
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: know when McDonald wrote that, but I would argue that

870
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: in when we are recording this, I would strike the husband.

871
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,800
Speaker 1: I don't even think that the rom com goal anymore

872
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: is necessarily a husband, because we're delaying marriage longer than

873
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: ever before. But it's still just like some kind of coupling,

874
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, some kind of stable relationship where you you

875
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: go to dinner. Yeah. Now, the yeah, that's the that's

876
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,879
Speaker 1: the end, is you finally get to go out for Chinese. Um. Yeah,

877
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,399
Speaker 1: but I mean the rom coms still exist to alleviate

878
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: the modern woman's anxiety at putting off marriage and commitment. Like, hey,

879
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: it's okay if you've been pursuing a career all these

880
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: years or getting your masters or whatever. Um Like, don't

881
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: worry as as we'll show you in this movie. Prince

882
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: Charming Harry Connick Jr. Is still right around the corner. Well,

883
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,800
Speaker 1: and I wondered too if there's in more recent film

884
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 1: an anxiety coming through too over not just gender roles,

885
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: but also technology, which I know curveball, um, but I'm

886
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: just thinking about it. Was just the montage of woman

887
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: in rom com in Soletto's like marching down the sidewalk

888
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: talking into a cell phone or texting and not looking

889
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: at anything around her, and that optic right there is

890
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: our audience queue that she's not really engaged in her life.

891
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: You know, things are just passing her by. She's so

892
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: focused she's missing everything around her. You know what I

893
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: want to see? What I want to see a movie

894
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: like maybe nobody else would enjoy this, but I really

895
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: would because I appreciate absurdity. I want to see a

896
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: movie where the leading lady like, like, let's say she's

897
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: a scientist, right, she works in a lab, and she's

898
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: totally normal. She's totally average. She's good at her job.

899
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: She has some friends that she goes out with on

900
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: the weekend. But she's living her life and she's fine,

901
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: and like she dates sometimes and you know, she's she's

902
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: totally fine. But everyone around her is still acting like

903
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: all the trophy characters in a romantic comedy. So you've

904
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: still got like Matthew McConaughey like bumbling into her and

905
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: trying to save her. You've still got like the sassy

906
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: best friend who's lecturing her on like getting out there

907
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. So everybody's really absurdly crazy around her.

908
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: But she's like, I'm just I'm just trying to go

909
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: to work. I'm totally fine, kind of like almost a

910
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: Daria in the middle of a of a bleep storm.

911
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: And the end of the movie is her just breaking

912
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: it off with a guy that she's been hooking up

913
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: with and they're fine, and they're just like, okay, cool,

914
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: she's just over it. I'll see around. It's just fine, Yeah,

915
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: no big deal. Those are actually the closing words of

916
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: the movie. That's the last lit I no big deal,

917
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: I'll see you later. Um, I would love to see

918
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: that too. Who would play in the starring role, Ellen Page,

919
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: Ellen Page could do it. Jenny Slate, Oh, Jenny Slate.

920
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: And she's just totally I mean, she's just totally fine.

921
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: But one, okay, one thing I wanted to ask your

922
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: opinion on Caroline is sort of the the flip side

923
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: of the working woman who has to be softened and

924
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: maybe her career focus just taken down a pick. She

925
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: doesn't have to just become jobless. But um, obviously you

926
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: know her success is too great. But then you also

927
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: have more of the hapless, bumbling working girl movie where

928
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: her career is kind of enshambles, but then once she

929
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: falls in love then everything comes together a Lah Kristen

930
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: Wig and Bridesmaids. She was burned, She had the whole

931
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: factor of the hallmark of being burned by a former lover.

932
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: And she is very clumsy. Um has a meat cute,

933
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: et cetera. But it's only after she gets set stabilizing

934
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: factor of the relationship that he finally gets her of

935
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: course bakery job back on track. I yeah, Well, what

936
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: is satisfying about things like that? And I don't necessarily

937
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: mean for me, I just mean kind of in general.

938
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: Is that. Uh In that storyline, similar to train Wreck,

939
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: everything is tied up very neatly. Everything is like set right,

940
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: We're like, okay, now she has a career. But it

941
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: is annoying that it takes the dude inspiring her indirectly

942
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: in one way or another. It does take the dude

943
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: for her to be like, oh, I guess I should

944
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: do something with my life. Well, and I guess to

945
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: One big difference is that at the beginning of the movie,

946
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: those characters aren't just like bogged down with all these

947
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 1: stereotypically masculine traits. They're not unlikable to begin with. Some

948
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: really like the likability makeover. Yeah, but she is a mess.

949
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: She has a man. That movie is the source of

950
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: so many great gifts. And you know what, Caroline, I'm

951
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: speaking of gifts. I'm very glad that that nineteen thirties

952
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: Taming Up a Shrew movie that you mentioned earlier came

953
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: out before the era of gifts that would have the

954
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: most horrifying gifts. Yeah, and thank goodness, Yeah, all of

955
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: those animal storyline myth tropes from long long ago were

956
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: before media in general. Yeah, let's never bring those a

957
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: screen people. Um, well, listeners, Now, we're curious to hear

958
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: from you about this trope because obviously it's there are

959
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: many different versions of it, from the ice Queen all

960
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: the way down to the hot mess who is sort

961
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 1: of reformed in her work, And we want to know

962
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: what you think about it, who your favorites are, who

963
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: your least favorites are. Does Harry Conne Jr's neck also

964
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: freak you out? Really? I mean, it's this whole persona,

965
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: to be honest, like, let's not limit it to the neck. Um.

966
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff and also works dot com is our email address.

967
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

968
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we got a couple of messages

969
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I'm gonna start

970
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: out this letter by saying, I'm sure Harry Conning Jr.

971
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: Is a really nice person in real life. Well, anyway,

972
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from Allison about our st

973
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: D and s t I testing episode. She says, thank

974
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: you for your frank discussion of s t I S.

975
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: When I was in grad school, I went through a

976
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: program to become an egg downor I had gone through

977
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: all six months of grueling applications, interviews, medical examinations, counseling sessions,

978
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: meetings with geneticists, and many many s t I tests.

979
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: After my information was put into a large binder of

980
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: available donnors, I was selected by a family almost immediately

981
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: after that. It was another grueling battery of medical examinations,

982
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 1: s t I tests, and at this point, hormone injections.

983
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 1: It was a week before the egg harvesting win. Upon

984
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: walking into the office to pick up another pack of

985
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 1: hormone injections, was unceremoniously told by an office assistant that

986
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: I had tested positive for syphilis and would be removed

987
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: immediately from the program. There was no sit down discussion

988
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: or information provided me about treatment options. The level of

989
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 1: shame and guilt and concern for my own health was devastating,

990
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: not to mention the worry over the poor family who

991
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: had been planning on being pregnant by Christmas. I had

992
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: no clue how I had contracted it between all the

993
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,919
Speaker 1: other STI tests that had been performed at this very

994
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: reputable Ivy League fertility clinic, considering I hadn't participated in

995
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: any behaviors that would have put me at risk. When

996
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: I was presented this information and pushed the subject, a

997
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: doctor was called in who told me, in no uncertain terms,

998
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: the tests are virtually infallible. I must have contracted syphilis

999
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: by engaging in some sort of irresponsible behavior. I went

1000
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 1: immediately from the clinic to student Health, which was right

1001
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: down the road, and took another test, which forty eight

1002
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: hours later had confirmed that the initial test was a

1003
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: false positive and I did not, in fact have syphilis.

1004
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: Before the results were back, they took time to sit

1005
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 1: down with me and explain that if I did test positive,

1006
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 1: I would be treated with a short course of penicillin.

1007
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: No shame, no guilt, no trauma. Needless to say, I

1008
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: had a meeting with the head of the fertility clinic

1009
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: to let her know of the poor care I had received,

1010
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 1: and she issued an apology. But the scars I carry

1011
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 1: from that experience make STI testing an uncomfortable experience for

1012
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: me to this day. Dude, Alison, I'm so sorry. That's

1013
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: the worst a nightmare. Well, I have a letter here

1014
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: from Banana about our Hillary Clinton episode. Banana writes, I

1015
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: shared the episode with a secret pro Hillary Facebook group

1016
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm part of. I know there are many underground pro

1017
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: Hillary groups out there because people are either actively getting

1018
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: shouted down by Bernie supporters on social media or are

1019
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: afraid to share their views in the first place. I've

1020
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: been pleasantly surprised by the level of discourse in this group,

1021
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 1: despite it being members all driven by word of mouth.

1022
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: Many people have expressed relief at having a space to

1023
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,919
Speaker 1: share their opinions and discuss the election without fear of retribution.

1024
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: The group is mainly female, but there is an active

1025
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: contingent of men as well. Yeah, it's interesting to me

1026
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: to witness the relief and joy new members express when

1027
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: they find us. I know you've done several episodes relating

1028
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: to women and online harassment, but it might be interesting

1029
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: to revisit this topic via the lens of the election.

1030
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 1: My own theory is that Hillary supporters, especially women, have

1031
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: been self censoring on social media given the hostility from

1032
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 1: both the right and even more sadly, the left. There

1033
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:43,959
Speaker 1: was a long thread in our group of people telling

1034
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 1: their stories of quote unquote coming out as Hillary supporters

1035
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 1: on Facebook. People felt very real anxiety and fear of retaliation.

1036
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: But we've been urging each other to be more visible

1037
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: one thing I hear pundit saying over and over again

1038
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 1: is that Hillary isn't inspiring enthusiasm. But I think they

1039
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 1: have it all wrong. In fact, I think she's inspiring

1040
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 1: quite a bit of bravery and her supporters. So I

1041
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: wanted to share Banana's letter because I know that we

1042
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of listeners in our audience who support,

1043
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, other presidential candidates, and I'm just curious to

1044
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: get other people's thoughts on the social media climate, especially

1045
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: when it comes to um the reactions people get when

1046
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: they discuss supporting Hillary online, because it's usually pretty harsh,

1047
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: to put it, lightly, yelling yes yes um. So with that, listeners,

1048
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: we want to hear all of your thoughts. Mom stuff

1049
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address,

1050
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: and our rom com summer series will continue. We have

1051
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: more tropes to unpack or lack of tropes, such as

1052
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: where people of color in uh rom comms? And where

1053
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