1 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd LODs podcast. 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wasn't Thal, and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, It's 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: time for another episode about one of our favorite topics. Money. 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: It's gotta be money, It's gotta be money. It's always money, 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: I mean, all of our inner sense. I guess all 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: of our episodes are money. But how could you talk 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: about things about money if you don't even know what 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: money is or where it comes from? I agree that 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: all of our episodes are money in that what was 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: that film you suppord money n Swan where people were going, 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: you're so money swingers, Yeah, swingers that one. Our episodes 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: are money in that sense, but they're also about money. 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: They are. And of course there's one of our favorite topics, 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: and today we have um. I think we're going to 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: explored with a slightly different angle than we sometimes do. 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: So we sometimes talk about the origins of money? Does 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: money come from the state? Is money inherently credit based? 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: What are the different kinds of things that we call money? 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: I think we're gonna attack the question from a slightly 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: different angle than we normally do. Yeah, I think this 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: is going to be a really interesting episode because it's 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: actually going to bring together a lot of the different 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: discussions we've been having about specific types of money, so 24 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: cash versus cryptocurrency, or different types of cryptocurrency like bitcoin 25 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: versus something like libra, uh, the currency that Facebook is 26 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: currently working on, and what the different use cases are 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: for each of those, but also what the different sort 28 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: of I guess societies that they create actually are, if 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, I like the way you put 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: that society is that they create. And of course, like 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: money is just like really interesting because obviously people pay 32 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: pay for things with money, but you know, people do 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: new things with money that they hadn't always done. So 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: it's like people paying venmo to their friends and they 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: leave funny messages along with their venmos, Like that's a 36 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: new thing that wasn't always the case. So within this 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: thing like payments or money, how we use it, what 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: its role in society is, how it connects us. It's 39 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: always evolving. Yeah, absolutely, And there's a big inclusion discussion 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: to be had there as well, So who has access 41 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: to different types of money, So I'm interested in touching 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: on that as well. So today I'm really excited once 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: again we have a past guest we had. I think 44 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: it was probably a couple of years ago now, but 45 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: we have her back. I'm very excited we're gonna be 46 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: speaking with a Lanta Swords. She's the professor of Media 47 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: Studies at the University of Virginia. She's also a fellow 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: at the Burguing Institute, and she is the author of 49 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: a recent book called New Money, How Money Became Social Media. 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,839 Speaker 1: So it will be interesting a different angle than we've 51 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: typically had. But a Lana, thank you so much for 52 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: joining us, Thanks for having me. It's good to be back, 53 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: you know. So, like we said this, we like this 54 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: topic what is money money? But there is some question 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: that arises sometimes, I think, which is why bother, like 56 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: why do we talk about this question? Like why is 57 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: it interesting or why is it important? From your perspective, 58 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: tackling this question from a different angle, and we'll get 59 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 1: to this the content of your book about money as 60 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: social media? Why is it even a thing we're studying 61 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: in the first place? In your view? Well, I know 62 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: for me, so I started my PhD program um right 63 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: kind of in the aftermath of the last global financial crisis. 64 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: So I was really in this moment of like I 65 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: was entering into a moment of scholarly study when it 66 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: seems like the whole world was asking that question, you know, 67 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: what is money? Why is money? Why do governments and 68 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: traditional financial institutions have like the say over what gets 69 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: to be money? And that kind of like post two 70 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: thousand eight moment was when we saw, I would say, like, really, 71 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: the emergence of what we now call fintech, what we 72 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: now call the sharing a con to me, what we 73 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: i'll call um, you know, the gig economy, like all 74 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: these different ways of doing money differently, of course, the 75 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: crypto space, and so it suddenly seemed like like everybody 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: was asking that kind of question, and so I became 77 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: really interested in it at a time where I could 78 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: also study people who were really interested in kind of 79 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: questions of money nous um and at a time when 80 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: people were starting to build new infrastructures to do money 81 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: and do the economy differently. Um. And of course, my 82 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, I'm an assistant professor of media studies, 83 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: and my background is in thinking about communication media technologies. 84 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: So I, prior to that point, had been, prior to 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: kind of turning to money, had been looking at the 86 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: emergence of social media. UM, you know, what do cell phones? 87 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: What do social media networks? Um? Mean for any number 88 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: of different social questions. And I realized that there was 89 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: almost no one inside the economy, inside academia, inside kind 90 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: of this field of media studies looking at that communication 91 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: and technological infrastructures that make money happen, and we're they 92 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: were undergoing this like kind of tremendous moment of transformation. 93 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: So for me, as someone who studies technologies that move 94 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: information around and um, the kinds of social and cultural 95 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: dimensions of those technologies, UM, I think it's important and 96 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: interesting to study money because typically when we talk about money, 97 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: we talked about kind of the politics or cultural meaning 98 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: of money. It has to do with questions of like 99 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: who has money, who doesn't have money, who's doesn't have 100 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: enough money, who has too much money? But we don't 101 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: usually think about the infrastructures that actually move money around 102 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: and how those infrastructures themselves have meaning and have power, 103 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: and how they're changing. So talk to us a little 104 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: bit more about that point. What exactly is the overlap 105 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,239 Speaker 1: between media and money? Because I think to most people 106 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: it's not going to be immediately apparent Oftentimes when I say, 107 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, my book is called How Payment Became Social Media, Um, 108 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: people immediately go to Venmo. And of course that's true, 109 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: like Venmo, such a cliche, such a cliche, immediately wondering, 110 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: and lots of Venmo in the book. So and I 111 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: think Vemo is really fascinating. But you know, Venmo is 112 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: overtly designed to be social media. You know, I've one 113 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: of my students mentioned once and I think that's even 114 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: made it to the book. It's like literally Facebook Blue, 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's a social stream that you know, turns 116 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: money into into a form of kind of media. But 117 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: if we go back and we think about, you know, 118 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: the the technologies of money, they have always kind of 119 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: tracked alongside the money the technologies of communication and media 120 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: more broadly. Um, so we could go back to thinking about, 121 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, the way coins, the way tally sticks, um, 122 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: the way any number, whether you know big rocks that 123 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: you you know, keep an oral history of of who 124 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: owns it in the case of the TIV and the well, 125 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: the isle of Yap. You know, those are all kind 126 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: of information systems. And however we kind of keep track 127 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: of information, whether it's through bits of shell or just 128 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: kind of oral history is kind of the remit of 129 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: what media and communication study scholars are interested in. But 130 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: if we think a little bit more more recent so, 131 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: paper currency does many of the same things that scholars 132 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: in my field talk about paper UM culture print culture 133 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: more generally doing so, you know, Benedict Anderson, who is 134 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: a UM scholar of the printing press, talked about how 135 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: the print and newspapers created an imagined community. It's his term, 136 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: like the skies and scale of the nation state. So 137 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: we kind of learned to think about ourselves as members 138 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: of nations through the consumption of printed media. And similarly, 139 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,559 Speaker 1: print currency is covered with iconography of the nation state. 140 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: It tells us an efficiently sanctioned past, and it allows 141 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: us to project into kind of a shared future UM 142 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: as kind of a community of shared faith. If we 143 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: then you know, think about okay, like move forward into 144 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: what you know, the technologies of money have been and 145 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: so you know, the telegraph, you know, we think about 146 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: Western Union is being primarily a money transfer service these days, 147 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: but it's also you know, one of the most important 148 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, communication systems. More broadly, moving forward into the 149 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: twenty later in the twentieth century, the very same computers 150 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: and in some cases some of the same engineers who 151 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: built the early Internet. We're also um building the Visa 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: master Card network, which is this kind of you know, 153 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: global communication system. So and you can still hear in 154 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: some like I haven't been to a bar in a 155 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: really long time, but um, but you can still hear 156 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: from the back and like the back a t M 157 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: of some sketchy bar like modem noises coming out of 158 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: a t M s And it kind of reminds us that, 159 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, this is an Internet of sorts. You know, 160 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm old enough to remember that you couldn't you know, 161 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: you couldn't swipe a credit card or my mom couldn't 162 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: swipe a credit card when someone was on the phone 163 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: at the store in the eighties and nineties. And so 164 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: now when we talk about new payment systems, we're looking 165 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: at mobile, we're looking at the Internet. We're thinking about crypto, 166 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: which is like in many ways, there's a reason why 167 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: we call it. You know, people jokingly call it magic 168 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: Internet currency and that sort of thing. So I try 169 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: to say, all right, let's rethink money as communication, you know, 170 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: think about transactions as literal like transactions moving across from 171 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: one account to another UM and then look at the 172 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: systems that power that communication, whether they are tally stick paper, 173 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: you know, UM, telegraph, Internet, whatever the case may be, 174 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: and say, all right, you know what are the politics 175 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: of those systems? Who manages them? How do we use 176 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: them to create meaning in our everyday lives. It's interesting. 177 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: You may not know this, but on a recent episode, 178 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: so Tracy after years and years of skepticism or recent 179 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: episode turned her into a bitcoin bowl. She she converted anyway, 180 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: But it's interesting thinking about, like you mentioned, imagined communities 181 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: and Benedict Anderson in the printing press sort of reifying 182 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: the state because obviously you look at physical currency, icons 183 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: of the state, founding fathers, other symbols that sort of 184 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: emphasize this. It's interesting to think of like sort of 185 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: like bitcoin and crypto, is this sort of like post 186 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: nation state currency which fits with the Internet. Is this 187 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of like you know, post newspapers posts, sort of 188 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: like post post print communities. I guess yeah, And you know, 189 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: I I will say I'm not, you know, hugely bullish 190 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: on crypto myself. I've been I've written some academic articles 191 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: about UM, bitcoin and blockchain going back many years now, 192 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: I'm old in bitcoin time, I guess, and I do 193 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: think that a huge part of what UM appeals about 194 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: about bitcoin or about crypto is the kind of community aspect. 195 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: So this like sense of being part of a shared 196 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: future that looks a particular way. UM. You know, I 197 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: have said, I've written that, you know, all money is 198 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: a stake. UM. It allows you to stake your claim 199 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: in a particular future. Like all money is kind of 200 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: a prediction market in some ways, because if you're willing 201 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: to accept and hold money, you're kind of betting on 202 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: a particular set of outcome. So if you do believe 203 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: in the future that is as folks talked about in 204 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: the nineties, like homesteading on the electronic frontier UM, and 205 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: that you're the pioneer UM, then why wouldn't you kind 206 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: of put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, 207 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: and and start thinking about what kind of monetary systems 208 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: would that would entail. So my time frame might be 209 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: slightly off here because I haven't lived in the States 210 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: for a while now, but from what I remember, like 211 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: even five years ago or so, it was kind of 212 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: difficult to send money very quickly to just a random person. Um. 213 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: You know, you could do a wire transfer, you could 214 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: do a money order, right, a check, things like venmo 215 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: or um other sort of instantaneous payment methods, maybe sending 216 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: bitcoin over the internet something like that. They weren't really 217 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: around yet. Why was that the case? Like, what is 218 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: the justification for making money transfers that slow for so long? Yeah, 219 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: whenever I speak to, you know, talk with folks in 220 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: other parts of the world, they're always like, they don't 221 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: really quite get venmo, because, um, it doesn't quite make 222 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: sense that we haven't yet had a good way to 223 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: send friends um money quickly and easily. And the United 224 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 1: States has kind of historically been behind in P two 225 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: P payments. And I I think there's kind of a 226 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: couple of different answers to that, for you know, in 227 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: terms of the reason why, um, you know, one is, 228 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: as you know, just general lack of public investment UM 229 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: or general lack of of you know, infrastructural investment that 230 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: would enable something like that. In a lot of places 231 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: in Europe, there is just they're more public options for 232 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: peer to peer payment UM. But also I think one 233 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: of the things I write about the book is that 234 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: the Visa master card network was developed at a time 235 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: that imagined a much more um kind of dietic economy. 236 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: So like there were consumers which were people, and there 237 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: were merchants that were businesses, and there were there wasn't 238 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: really away for a person to be a merchant um 239 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: or and therefore a person to kind of accept payments. Um. 240 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: And so we have as you may know, and I 241 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: could really geek out about this for a very long time, 242 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: but people tell me, um that not everyone is like 243 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: Super in the credit card acquiring value change. So with 244 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: credit cards, um, every everyone has a bank that represents themselves, 245 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: that represents them as they enter the kind of credit 246 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: card network. So people have a bank that's their issuing 247 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: bank that issues them a credit card. UM. Let's say 248 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: I have a Chase UM Sapphire Cards, so chases my issuer. 249 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: And then if I am a merchant, UM, I have 250 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: an acquiring bank who you know, maybe let's say oftentimes 251 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: it's also Chase, but um, you know, it could be 252 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: Bank of America Merchant Services, and that acquiring bank, you know, 253 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: acquires payments on my behalf but also kind of holds 254 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: the risk for me. And what that means is that 255 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: if a customer wants their money back UM, then they 256 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: will UM ask for chargeback through their issuer, who will 257 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: then go through the network and then go to the acquirer, 258 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: and the acquirer, under the rules of the network, typically 259 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: is mostly obliged to just give them their money back, 260 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: so UM, so the acquirer essentially pays the issuer and 261 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: the issuer then issues a refund to the customer. So 262 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: then the acquirer has to then go to the merchant 263 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: and say, hey, I've issued this chargeback, I need money 264 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: from you. And if the which happens all the time, 265 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: it's not usually that big a deal. UM. But if 266 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, the merchant faces a ton and a 267 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: ton of chargebacks, or the merchant goes out of business, 268 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: or the merchant was a scammer, the acquirer is left 269 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: holding the bag for all of that risk. So acquiring 270 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: services are priced according to risk. So if you're an acquirer, 271 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: one of the ways you make money is by um 272 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: doing higher risk payments. UM. So anyone who, for the 273 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: most part, who's an issue, who's a merchant, can find 274 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: an acquirer who like matches their risk appetite. But historically 275 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: that has not been so there's no has not been 276 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: any real way for individuals to have their risk assessed 277 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: by an acquirer. And there has never been a kind 278 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: of acquirer for people. Um So, there has never been 279 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: a way for people to accept payments through the Visa 280 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: master Card network. And then you know, the big innovation 281 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: in that space was PayPal in the nineties. Um And 282 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: of course PayPal rides the rails not primarily of the 283 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: Visa master Card network, but of the A C H network. 284 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: UM So that's why you know, PayPal prefers it when 285 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: folks use their checking account rather than like having to 286 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: access and having to pay fees to access the network 287 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: the Visa master Card network. So it we never it 288 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: was built in a time. The Visa master Card network 289 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: was built in a time in the you know, nineteen 290 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: seventies when we didn't have as much of a peer 291 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: to peer economy, didn't have as much as a person 292 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: to person, we didn't have as much of a press 293 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: person imagination for how the economy would work. And I 294 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: think that that has a lot to do with our 295 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: media infrastructure. So I mean the Internet in many ways, 296 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: like allows us to imagine ourselves as economic actors um 297 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: as people, and so the internet kind of had to 298 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: figure out a way to allow us to get paid 299 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: and to pay so and I'm just wondering. So, you know, 300 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: when Facebook launched Libra, which is sort of like the 301 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: next iteration of a lot of what we're talking about, 302 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: there were a lot of cynics out there who were saying, well, 303 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: this is just a way for Facebook to get additional 304 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: data on its users. I'm curious, like how much of 305 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: these new payment systems are about learning more about the 306 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: individual to your point, versus you know, just dealing with 307 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: the merchant. Yeah, I mean absolutely, UM. I think that 308 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: that like anything else coming out of the tech industry, 309 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, there is a data imperative, there's a data 310 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: play UM. Merchants, as I mentioned, pay to receive payments 311 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: and if and for the most part, we don't you know, 312 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: people don't pay to be paid, nor do we UM, 313 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: nor are we willing to really pay to pay UM. 314 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: So there has to be some way that like this 315 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: is being monetized UM. And so for the most part 316 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: that has been you know, imagined like everything else as 317 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: and I kind of when I say how payment became 318 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: social media, A big part of what I mean, is 319 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: like social the Silicon Valley, since the term which means 320 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: that there is a social data component um. And you know, 321 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: for a long time, folks in this kind of like 322 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: new payment space talked about like mobile payments as kind 323 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: of the holy grail of social data sets, because there 324 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: was this kind of dream that if you could actually finally, 325 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: um you know, close the loop between targeted message to 326 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,479 Speaker 1: actual purchase in real space and time, UM, then you 327 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: would um you know, do something you know, no advertiser 328 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: has ever done before. I think that some of the 329 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: business models have moved away, um to some extent, from 330 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: the kind of like direct advertising type of targeted advertising 331 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: type of business model to thinking about things like developing 332 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: new systems of risk analytics, UM, you know, just kind 333 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: of applying data to whatever data can be used for. 334 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: And and in some cases I've been somewhat convinced by 335 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: Tim Wong's new book that that basically are argues that 336 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: it's possible that we don't we can't actually get as 337 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: much value out of all of these um data sets 338 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: as we may hope, and then we may see something 339 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: we may be in the middle of a data bubble. 340 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, the kind of Quest for Data, which you 341 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: guys should have him on the podcast. He's really interesting. 342 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: We should. I was just thinking, what's the name of 343 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: his book is called I Can see it? Sub Prime 344 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: attention crisis advertising and the time bomb at the heart 345 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: of the Internet. Sounds good? Is this like how I buy? 346 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: Like I bought like a new Dutch oven the other 347 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: day and then now all I get is ads for 348 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: Dutch as if you were a Dutch oven collector. Wait, 349 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: if we collector, it might make sense. But if it were, 350 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: like if it were some theoretically efficient market for data, 351 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: someone's getting screwed. Like someone's buying a lot of impressions 352 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: that probably they wish they weren't, you know, as all 353 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: of the right exactly, and as all of the almost 354 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: every major social media company has tried to do payment 355 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: it's over the last ten years, um, with varying degrees 356 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: of success, and they've all applied kind of their standard 357 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: m o um too the what they think they're going 358 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: to do with it. So you know, Google has imagined 359 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: that they will sell like AdWords type of thing as 360 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: it relates to payments. Facebook has imagined that they would 361 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: kind of hoard it and figure out what they were 362 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: going to do with it. Venmo is kind of interesting 363 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: because Veno has a public api. Um, it's quite easy 364 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: to browse Venmo data. There's a lot of interesting art 365 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: projects that UM kind of ticket exploit this so um 366 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: that one of my favorites is called public by Default, 367 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: and that is by an artist called UM but named 368 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: hand the Duke, and she basically um downloaded all Venmo 369 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: transactions from the year seen and used it to create 370 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: portraits of individual people. She calls them the humans of Venmo, 371 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: and she profiles like young lovers obviously getting into an 372 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: argument and then making up and breaking up, and this 373 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: one woman who's seems to spend an inordinate amount of 374 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: money on junk food, and someone who is almost definitely 375 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: a weed dealer. UM, and she kind of and she 376 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,959 Speaker 1: kind of uses it to to say, like, you know, 377 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: which the reason why I think this is so interesting 378 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: is that, yes, she's using it to say we should 379 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: probably be making this private. But it also shows, you know, 380 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: really how like poignant the stories are money tells are 381 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: and how these are like lived experiences. Yeah. So I know, 382 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: you say, like it's a cliche and everyone goes to Venmo, 383 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: but there's obviously a reason for this because it's just 384 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,959 Speaker 1: so obvious and like I use Venmo, but you know, 385 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: like I don't put like clever things in my messages. 386 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: I just like say straight up if I like, if 387 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: I'm splitting lunch, I'm splitting lunch. But obviously people do, 388 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: and they like use emojis or you know, tongue in 389 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: cheek jokes. Why like why is and you see, like 390 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of weird that it's people are default public 391 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: or that they let themselves, especially when you can then 392 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: reverse engineer you can figure. You know, there was some 393 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: site that I saw it was basically just like every 394 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: like trains, yeah, vice mobized yeah Vice. So like why 395 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: and when when you when people research this, what is 396 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: it about the desire to make it fun their transactions, 397 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: or to make it public, or to even reveal a 398 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: legal activity that people are so comfortable doing. Yeah, I 399 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: mean I do think that the I do think that 400 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: money is fundamentally social, Our transactions are, and I think 401 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: that for a long time, I think that people are 402 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: uncomfortable admitting it, um and uncomfortable. Uh, and that's true 403 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: for scholars, like you know, whether we fall onto the 404 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: side of being like economists who think like money is 405 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: pursuing you know, some sort of rational economic interests, or 406 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: we fall under the camp of being Marxists who thinks 407 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: that um, all money reduces all the quality in the 408 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: world two mere quantities UM. Historically, scholars have given money 409 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: kind of short shrift, like it's insufficiently social um and 410 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: and that or that money sociality is an aberration from 411 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: how it's supposed to act UM. And I think in 412 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: everyday life we tend to think about money is something 413 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: we shouldn't talk about UM or something that is we 414 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: really feel the need to set apart from our social lives, 415 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: our friendships, and Venmo kind of reveals how deeply social 416 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: it is and how kind of fun it can be. 417 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: You're meaningful it can be UM. But I do think 418 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: that that sociality isn't so straightforward as like these mirror 419 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: like I will put a joke that makes perfect sense 420 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: with the transaction that I'm I'm doing UM. And what 421 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean by that is when when I talk to 422 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: young people who are big users of Venmo, they describe 423 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: the kind of public performance element as usually indeed quite performative. 424 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: So you're paying your rent to your roommate, but you're talking, 425 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: You're putting Margarita emojis to ensure that everyone has a 426 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: sense that your social life is more interesting than it is, 427 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: right exactly. And so I do think that that anyone 428 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: who goes to Venmo data hoping to find some truth 429 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: um that is very straightforward, is probably going to have 430 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: to really dig to find these kind of like clear 431 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: cut stories. But I do think that what makes the 432 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: data interesting to advertisers or to you know, the FBI 433 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: is the um kind of social network, that kind of 434 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: social graph inaggregate, So it doesn't really matter what I'm 435 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: saying to you, Um, it's so more so that we 436 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: can kind of trace the transactions of the kind of 437 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,239 Speaker 1: flow of money. So yeah, I mean, I do think 438 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: I think an interesting part of that data set is 439 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: that it is so available, but it is definitely one 440 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: that we I don't think anyone who has really figured 441 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: out quite yet how um, it should be wielded or 442 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: how it can be best wielded. Oh. The other thing 443 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: I'll say about Venmo is that they've tried to sell 444 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: themselves as an advertising, um, a side of advertising more recently. 445 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: So they there's like an ad on the Vemo side 446 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: as of a couple of weeks ago that shows like 447 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: to just some guys having a conversation about some pants 448 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: they bought. So it's like, you know, oh, sweet khakis, bro, 449 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: and the other guys like, yeah, they fit pretty well, 450 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: and it's like the most artificial conversation you can imagine. 451 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: But the the advertising copy is, you know, you know, 452 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: puts your brand at the center of real authentic conversations 453 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: between friends. And when the young people that I interview 454 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: or my students UM at University of Virginia look at this, 455 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: they just kind of think it's it's a joke. So 456 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: it's it's very social, but it might not be um 457 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: social in the way that people who, you know, the 458 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: folks who want to make money off of it, hope 459 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: that it is. Um There's something that we briefly touched 460 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: upon that I wanted to go back to and talk 461 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: to in further detail, and that was the idea that 462 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: money has historically always been wrapped up in notions of 463 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: the nation state, and now we're sort of seeing that disrupted. 464 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: And I think you use in your book this analogy 465 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: that it's sort of like new media disrupting the old 466 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: media and the old media would be the state in 467 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: this particular case. And you dig into that a little 468 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: bit more, and what does it actually mean for society 469 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: if money starts being divorced from the covernment? Mm hmm. Yeah. 470 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: So in some ways this goes back to the home 471 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: setting on the electronic frontier analogy. So, UM, you know, 472 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: I hear people, I've long heard people tell me that 473 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: the bitcoin is like the Internet in UM. So it's this, 474 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: you know, the fresh new thing that's open for you know, um, 475 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 1: reimagining all aspects of society. UM. And so I do 476 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: think that many people who come to designing new money 477 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: systems UM, specifically new currency systems, are overtly trying to 478 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: like accelerate the process of the kind of decoupling of 479 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: money from the nation state. I mean, if you go 480 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: back and read some of the memoirs of the folks 481 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: UM involved in the early days of PayPal. Even PayPal, 482 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: which was not bitcoin, you know, did not have the 483 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: same kind of aspirations that bit going does was imagic 484 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: as kind of a libertarian project that would allow money 485 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: to move around the world very quickly, UM, that would 486 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: disrupt some of the traditional state and traditional financial intermediaries, etcetera. UM, 487 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: that clearly isn't exactly what it became. And even before that, 488 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: UM de Hawk, who is the kind of like unsung 489 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: visionary behind Visa. So he was the CEO UM and 490 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: founder of Visa. He's a really fascinating person. But in 491 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: he right he wrote in the seventies that you know, 492 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: money now is nothing more than alphanumeric information inscribed on 493 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: a magnetic strip. And therefore, in very soon, UM, traditional 494 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: governments and traditional financial institutions will no longer UM have 495 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: a monopoly on the kind of issue and movement of money. UM. 496 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: So this kind of like re envisioning what society would 497 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: be and kind of disrupting state issued currency has sort 498 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: of been at the heart of financial innovation for a 499 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: very very long time, and sometimes quite overtly, sometimes less. 500 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: But then, you know, thinking back to this idea that 501 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 1: bitcoin is the Internet, um in I think that you know, 502 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: we we kind of have to follow what actually happened 503 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: with the Internet. I mean, the Internet is not a 504 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: anarcho capitalist utopia or dystopia as the case maybe. You know, 505 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: the Internet has primarily been carved up by platforms and 506 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: corporate behemoths, and I don't think there's necessarily any reason 507 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: that we would anticipate that the same wouldn't happen for 508 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: the kind of issue of extra national non state currency. Um. 509 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: I don't know why we're imagining. We we so often 510 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: imagine a future, but I mean it's cool that they're trying. Yeah, 511 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing. It's like, you know, there's 512 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: a lot of like hand like it's you know, it's 513 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: sort of the Internet. I think maybe it's because you know, 514 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: I'm older, but you know, ten years ago, I thought 515 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: the Internet was more fun when it wasn't just like 516 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter and Google and people had individual websites 517 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: and dogs and all that stuff. And then the Internet 518 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: gutless cool when those things went away. So it's cool 519 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: that people are trying, right, Absolutely, I mean it's something 520 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: that's not owned by a Silicon Valley trillion dollar unicorn. Absolutely. 521 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: But I think the question is why did that happen? Um? 522 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: You know what did over focusing on say I will 523 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too into the question of regulation, 524 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: but are there ways in which the I that kind 525 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: of fantasy that the Internet should be divorced from going 526 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: back to again speak, Um, you know, the like meat 527 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: space governments, and that the Internet was truly going to 528 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: be this like heterotopia that existed in cyberspace that was 529 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: like somewhere else and we should be really hands off 530 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: about it. Um. Did that allow those platforms to kind 531 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: of come in and carve it up? Um? So another question, 532 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, another way to put that would be, 533 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: having learned that lesson, how can we protect, um, the 534 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of future of the Internet and into the future 535 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: of the kinds of you know, when it comes to money. 536 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: So if we're if we're really imagining a future where 537 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: money is primarily so, I actually don't think state issue 538 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: currency is going anywhere, but I do think that it 539 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: will probably live alongside a variety of other currency forms. 540 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily believe that those currency forms will 541 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,719 Speaker 1: all be you know, an archo capitalist or libertarian or 542 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: or however inflected with any kind of values. Alternative money forms. 543 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: I think that we have every reason to believe that 544 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: they might be corporate moneys, and maybe we don't want that. 545 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: You know, everybody joked a couple of years I guess 546 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: it was about a year ago now, maybe more than that. UM, 547 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: when Howard Schultz you know CEO, former CEO and uh 548 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: of of Starbucks. But this was some time before he 549 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: launched his presidential campaign. Um was saying he does think 550 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: that there will be a future of of non state 551 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: money forms that are based on block chains, but he 552 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: doesn't think that they will be bitcoin or cryptocurrencies like bitcoin. Rather, 553 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: they will be issued by a few, as he put it, 554 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: kind of like trusted brands. Um that would you know, 555 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: steward these money forms. And everyone kind of laughed at him. 556 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: It was like a funny little moment of like Twitter 557 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: schadenfreud for like somebody said something that sounded really stupid. 558 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: But if you think about it, Starbucks has probably the 559 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: most ubiquitous, most still most widely used mobile payment system 560 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: in the United States. Um, we you know, we've Venmo 561 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: and other payment companies would have been trying for a 562 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: very long time to get an app on people's phones, 563 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: and really before Venmo, the only one that was on 564 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: anybody's phones was a Starbucks app. Um. They have greater 565 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: geographic breadth and depth than the US Postal Service. So 566 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: if we compare them to postal banking in terms of 567 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: like what a branch network might look like, they're doing 568 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: pretty good. They are truly global. They do have something 569 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: like they're you know, loyalty points and all of that 570 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: that people really do care about. When you get to 571 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: talking to people about their Starbucks stars, they get, um, 572 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: really passionate about it. So I can imagine a future 573 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: where many of our kind of plural currencies are issued 574 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: by brands are corporate and you know, we can't stay 575 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: too focused on the kind of um sci fi vision 576 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: of the future and instead kind of think about what 577 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, various forms of utopian dystopia will look like. 578 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: And historically, I say, we fight for the sci fi version. 579 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: Maybe it'll happen eventually, I mean you could, but let's 580 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: not accept it. Yeah, let's not just let's not preemptively surrender. Well, 581 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, historically, I mean Tracy mentioned that, you know, 582 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: money has we're moving away from money, as you know, 583 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: being tied the nation state, but historically, and in many 584 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: places in the world, more often than not, money has 585 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: been quite plural. Um. So you know, of course the 586 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: free banking era. But um, you know, one of my 587 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: favorite books on this is a book called City Reading 588 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: by David Hankin, who's a historian, where he writes about 589 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: how in before the Civil War, when people moved to 590 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: New York City, they had to negotiate all different kinds 591 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: of monetary media, you know, um, bank notes issued by 592 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: countless different banks, but also bank notes that were issued 593 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: by banks that had gone bust, counterfeits real ones, but 594 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: that you know. So it's like, is your bank good? 595 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: And is like the money? Is the bank good? And 596 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: is the money good? And like and is this money 597 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: going to be even if it is a real bank? 598 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: Is it something that someone will take in the city 599 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,719 Speaker 1: that I live in, Like, maybe they'll take it in Philadelphia, 600 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: but they won't take it New York. Um. And And 601 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: to be to be a city liver, the city dweller 602 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: in um antebellum New York, you had to really know 603 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 1: how to add a glance, like decide if you're going 604 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: to take a form of money, if you could use 605 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: a form of money, um. And it was really complicated. 606 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: People live very complicated monetary lives. And I think so 607 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: I think that more we're going to have to learn 608 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: with living in a kind of cacophonous monetary media ecosystem, 609 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: And in some ways we already are. If we think 610 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: about things like Starbucks cards, or you know, my Chase 611 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: Sapphire reserve confers all kinds of uh um benefits upon 612 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: me um. If I use an E B T card, 613 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: I can only I can't buy hot rotisserie chicken, but 614 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: I can buy because that's prepared food and it is disallowed. 615 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: But I can buy chick rotisserie chicken that has been 616 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: taken out of the hot case and chilled, making it 617 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: no longer hot food. UM. So I am really interested 618 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: in the question of, like what is monetary mass media 619 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: and what happens when we move to monetary social media, 620 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: which is like, you know, all of these new kinds 621 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: of systems, but in many cases we're already living in 622 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: a world where mass media when it comes to money 623 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: is kind of a myth um, where money is really 624 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: complicated for people, and we need to kind of pay 625 00:34:50,960 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: attention to that. So that Antebella, New York example reminded 626 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: me of something else that I wanted to ask you, 627 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: which is, if we're talking about money as a societal thing, well, 628 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: societies are about inclusion, but that also means excluding some people. Right. 629 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: You can't have a group of people without sort of 630 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: creating an opposite group that you compare and contrast yourself 631 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: against and I can see like in New York, making 632 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: the money system as complicated as possible was probably a 633 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: very good way of distinguishing New Yorkers from you know, 634 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: the routs who are coming in from the country or whatever. 635 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: What sort of barriers are being built into new systems 636 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: of money and what does that mean for the future. 637 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: There are questions of inclusion exclusion. So for example, you know, 638 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: I'm kind of a soft soft war with this very 639 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: expensive smoothie store UM here in my town because they 640 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: refused to take cash UM. And you know, they're like, 641 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: here's that lady who's coming around again, who wants to 642 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: talk to us about how we're excluding poor people from 643 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: our smoothies. But it's kind of true. You know, the 644 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: kinds of money that we take create various kinds of 645 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: inclusion exclusion. But I also like to think about the 646 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: term predatory inclusion. So you can almost always find a 647 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 1: way to pay for something, but what are the terms 648 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: of that inclusion? So if you think about um, you know, 649 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: most prepaid cards have tremendous fees attached to them. Um. 650 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: You know, you have a fee to every time you 651 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: swipe the card. You have a fee every time you 652 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: put money on it. You have a fee if you 653 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: need to cancel it, you have a monthly maintenance fee, etcetera, etcetera. 654 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: So whereas someone like me with my credit score is 655 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: getting paid every time I pay with my Chase aff 656 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: I reserve, somebody else is actually paying you know they're 657 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: they're in fact not their payment is not at all 658 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: clearing up par um. So I think that we do 659 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: need to look at questions of of inclusion, like can 660 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: you be involved in the economy, but really like what 661 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: are the terms of that include as you enter the economy? Um? 662 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: And how how are they you know, how are these 663 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: systems being monetized? So before we go and we have 664 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: to wrap up, I mean, obviously there are some sort 665 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: of very blatant examples of money as social media. We 666 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: talked about venmo very easy to understand. Our cryptocurrencies are 667 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 1: social libra, the memo on checks are social. The old 668 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: Western Union and the telegraph. What's in your book what's 669 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: the most sort of surprising social money that you discovered 670 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: or what's the most sort of like weird thing that 671 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: maybe people haven't heard of as much. One thing that 672 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: I think is very interesting. UM is you know, everyone 673 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: knows about Chase Fire Reserve, and I mean your audience 674 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: probably does. And how um when it first came out, 675 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: there was some and you know, various premium cards. There's 676 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: always like drama over if it increases access to premium 677 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: lounges and kind of opens up space to people who 678 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: might not you know, there was a complaint I think 679 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: in the New York Times that was, like the premium 680 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: lounges have become a zoo now that everyone with with 681 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: a particular credit card can get in. But there are 682 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: other cards and other loyalty systems that kind of open 683 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: up access to these like previously hidden or rarefied realms. 684 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: And one of the ones that I think is really 685 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 1: interesting are UM on their credit cards designed for owner 686 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: operators of trucks, so like truckers, long haul truck drivers 687 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: UM and they and like lots of loyalty geared at 688 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: truck drivers who do in fact ring up quite a 689 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: bit of interchange, which is what pays for the rewards, 690 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: because they're on the road and spending a lot of 691 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: money and swepping their cards many times UM and so 692 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: rather than there being these kind of like premium airport lounges. 693 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 1: There are premium truck stop gas areas, so if you 694 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 1: are a have status as a truck driver, you can 695 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: enter certain areas of truck stops that you or I 696 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: don't even know existest that allows you to get gas 697 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: kind of more quickly. Yeah, get access to showers, that 698 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Yeah, I know, I really want one 699 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: of those cards. Yeah. Well, I think the they're like 700 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: the kind of gas pumps that are geared for like, 701 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: you know, semi trucks. So I don't think that even 702 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: like work with with normal cars. Um, So they're definitely 703 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: not geared for us. And I don't think you want 704 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: to take a shower at a truck stop, um, although 705 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: you might if we're all driving now that we're not 706 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: flying as much anymore, because I show um. And of course, 707 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: because these are business cards, um, because these folks are 708 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: owner operators, they're not as um, they're not, they don't 709 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: face they're not as regulated as heavily as consumer cards, 710 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: so they they do have perhaps higher credit lines than 711 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: someone might qualify for as an individual, they're higher interest rates. 712 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: They can be kind of part of this kind of 713 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: predatory inclusion if people aren't very careful about how they 714 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: manage them. But I did you know, I write about 715 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: an account of a trucker who talks about, you know, 716 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: the kind of loyalty rewards from these trucker cards as 717 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: quote unquote like food stamps for truckers, because they allow 718 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: truckers to access um a shower access and meal access, 719 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: like a rest stop when they need to, even if 720 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: they at the moment don't have the funds. All Right, 721 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: that was awesome, Laana Sports, thanks so much for coming 722 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: back on oudlock. Yeah, thank you, Thanks Launa. I really 723 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: like talking to Lana. I find this like an endlessly 724 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: fascinating subject. I love them. I love the reference to 725 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: Benedict Anderson. I don't know if you've ever read that book, 726 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: but this idea of like print forming the sort of 727 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: conception of like community and nationhood and then thinking about 728 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: what like post print culture and post print money looks 729 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: like it's just sort of a super fascinating thing with 730 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: what I think is probably a lot of implication, many 731 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: significant implications to that. Yeah, I think the idea of 732 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 1: money being sort of wrapped up in communication, which means 733 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: that it's inevitably wrapped up in communication technology, and it 734 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 1: sort of changes along with those new technologies as they're developed. 735 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: I think that makes a lot of sense. I also 736 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: really liked her idea of the price of financial inclusion, 737 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: because I think we do think a lot about people 738 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,439 Speaker 1: just being locked out of new payment systems, or even 739 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: people who aren't able to get bank accounts and things 740 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: like that, and we don't often think about the flip 741 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: side of that, which is, you know, when they are included, 742 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: what are the terms of that inclusion, And once they're 743 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: sort of embedded in a particular payment system because of 744 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: the data aspects that we were talking about, does that 745 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: mean that they're locked into it basically forever? Like are 746 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,439 Speaker 1: you always going to be tagged as a person who 747 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 1: has this particular credit score or a person who lives 748 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: in a particular way, And you know, therefore, for the 749 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: rest of eternity you're going to be getting advertisements for 750 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: Dutch ovens to your example. But you know, if you're 751 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: a poor person, maybe for the rest of your life, 752 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: you're going to be getting pushed loans and financial products 753 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: with a higher interest rate than you would otherwise. Yeah, 754 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: And I thought the question that you asked was I 755 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,240 Speaker 1: had never thought about her answer before about why our 756 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: system is so clunky when it comes to two way money, 757 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: and so why is it, you know, and this idea 758 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: that there is like at one point it was like 759 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: the sort of like fundamental difference between a merchant and 760 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: in a buyer and a purchaser, and that they have 761 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: different need and that different types of merchants run different 762 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 1: levels of chargeback risks. So presumably there are things there 763 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: there merchants for whom are always dealing with customers trying 764 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 1: to scam them and trying to get their money back, 765 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: and others for whom not so much, And that that 766 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: sort of like gradation of risk is a very sort 767 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: of like alien concept to the individual. I thought that 768 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: was super interesting and then sort of like helps to 769 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: like sort of re contextualize all these different average by 770 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: like social media companies who like knows so much about 771 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: us to turn us all into both payers and recipients 772 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: of money. Yeah, And I guess the big question is 773 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: whether or not individuals do you start getting risk profiles 774 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: in that sense sort of like that you know that 775 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: Black Mirror episode where everything is determined by like your 776 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: Instagram profile? Do you remember that? Oh? I don't think 777 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: I ever watched that. You know what, can I just 778 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: say I saw the first episode of Black Mirror and 779 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: I got too freaked out by it, and I've never 780 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,919 Speaker 1: watched them Alright, this one would freak you out because 781 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: this one I could see actually happening. Um. But this 782 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,359 Speaker 1: idea that maybe like your social media profile or your 783 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: online profile is eventually going to feed in how you 784 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: are perceived as a financial risk or financial credit, I think, 785 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think to some extent we're already on 786 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,919 Speaker 1: the way to that. Yeah. Well, and also reason the question, 787 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, like if you ever read a stuff J. W. Mason, 788 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,479 Speaker 1: he's like an economist at John J Here in the City. 789 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: He makes this really interesting point in some of his writing, 790 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: which is that like our bank account, in this weird way, 791 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: like if you like look at your bank account, you 792 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: have x amount of money in some sort of like 793 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: abstract sense, it's supposed to be some representation of all 794 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: of your historical decisions, right. It's it's this sort of 795 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: number that represents every purchase and every income you've made, 796 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: one minus the other. And so in a way like 797 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: money is all is on some level, this sort of 798 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: like measure of our past selves and then thinking about 799 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: it in terms of like explicitly measuring our social media 800 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: or monitoring our social media is almost like making been 801 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: more explicit what money is attempted to do. I don't 802 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: know if that makes any sense, but no, it does. 803 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,399 Speaker 1: Money is a source of identity. Yeah, yeah, it's it's 804 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: a it's a great subject and even um, there's a 805 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: reason we always like to talk about it. Yeah, there 806 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: definitely is. I'm definitely going to read Lana's book now, 807 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: which is also an audiobook, so maybe I'll be listening 808 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: to it. Okay, should we leave it there? All right, 809 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 1: let's leave it there. This has been another episode of 810 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: the ad Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow 811 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Why 812 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,840 Speaker 1: Isn't Though? You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart, 813 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: And you should follow our guest on Twitter, Lana Swartz. 814 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,439 Speaker 1: She's at Lana, Lana and Chug out her new book 815 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: New Money, How Money Became Social Media, and be sure 816 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: to follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. 817 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca Levi at Francesca 818 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: Today and check out all of our podcasts under the 819 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening to