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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nolan.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Andrew, the

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Speaker 4: try Force Howard. Most importantly, you are here. That makes

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Speaker 4: this the stuff they don't.

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Speaker 3: Want you to know.

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Speaker 4: You know, guys, we were talking, oh a little while

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Speaker 4: back off air. We've spent quite a bit of time

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Speaker 4: recently exploring present and future conspiracies and folks with so

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Speaker 4: many bizarre and troubling events occurring, who can blame us?

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Speaker 4: Like Noel, Matt, Andrew. Have you guys checked the stock

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Speaker 4: market recently?

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Speaker 3: Nope.

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Speaker 2: I looked at it this morning. As of April seventh,

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Speaker 2: it was way down.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 5: You know what, though, y'all, we've we've sorry. I hate

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Speaker 5: to be silver lining guy. It's very bad, but we

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Speaker 5: have lived through these kinds of corrections and recessions before.

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Speaker 5: And you know, I just remember at the time the

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Speaker 5: last big recession happened, my mom sold all of her stock,

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Speaker 5: which was a really dumb thing to do because that's

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Speaker 5: when you actually, you know, show the loss. So if

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Speaker 5: she had just sat on it, it would have been

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Speaker 5: fine because it all came back around. But no, what's

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Speaker 5: going on right now is bonkers.

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Speaker 2: That's why we love cafsper mastresses. It's a great place

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Speaker 2: to store that.

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Speaker 5: No man, keep the cash, keep the cash, but don't

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Speaker 5: pan excel.

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Speaker 4: Your stock as well as as well as of course

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Speaker 4: Hellman's Bonnat's jars, Helman's Bonnai's jar.

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Speaker 3: Ours set it, forget it, bury it in your.

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Speaker 5: Yard or just your couch, you know coinstar that's down there.

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Speaker 4: By your put it in your couch or your Casper mattress.

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Speaker 4: That's where we put the jar. Then you bury it in.

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Speaker 5: Your yard so when it turns into Kim chee in

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Speaker 5: a couple.

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Speaker 4: So we're clearly top level financial advisors, but we are

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Speaker 4: counseling people about the importance, yea, of staying calm right

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Speaker 4: in chaotic times. And that's a question that we're going

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Speaker 4: to explore in this Evening's episode. When the Nation of

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Speaker 4: Australia and indeed the world panicked because imagine, all right,

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Speaker 4: we're in chaotic times, right, Now, some people love the

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Speaker 4: current US president. Some people are not fans of the

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Speaker 4: current US president. What if one day he went swimming

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Speaker 4: and disappeared.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know, some people might feel various ways

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Speaker 5: about that in one direction or another. But yeah, certain

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Speaker 5: they would be a big news item.

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Speaker 3: You mean, like in the band one direction.

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Speaker 5: Exactly that, that's exactly could say.

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Speaker 2: But for real, and imagine if the sitting president of

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Speaker 2: the United States was very well liked, like just all around,

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Speaker 2: you know, pretty dang high approval.

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Speaker 3: Rating and folksy guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, imagine, but imagine if that occurred like that,

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Speaker 2: would there would uh, there wouldn't be much other news

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Speaker 2: coming out besides where where did the president go?

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Speaker 3: What happened?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this this evening we're diving back to you'll

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Speaker 4: see why that's.

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Speaker 3: A bad bit of word play.

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Speaker 4: In a minute, we're diving back to our roots with

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Speaker 4: a classic mystery, some classic stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 4: to know. A disappearing prime minister. This one is for you,

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Speaker 4: fellow aussy listeners from down under. What happened to Harold Holt?

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Speaker 4: And why do so many conspiracies about his disappearance abound?

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Speaker 3: Today?

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Speaker 5: We'll find out right after a teeny tiny quickie word

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Speaker 5: from our sponsor.

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Speaker 4: Here are the facts, all right, Who's Harold Holt? This

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Speaker 4: name might not be familiar to a lot of a

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Speaker 4: lot of our fellow listeners outside of Australia.

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Speaker 5: While Harold Edward Holt was born on the fifth of

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Speaker 5: August nineteen eight in Sydney, Australia, both of his parents

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Speaker 5: were teachers, and he had moved around quite a few times,

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Speaker 5: and by the age of twelve had lived in Sydney,

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Speaker 5: Adelaide and Melbourne, where Holt ultimately finished school.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and he is not a guy coming from a

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Speaker 4: silver spoon background, you know what I mean. He's not

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Speaker 4: the scion of some multi generational mining dynasty or anything

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Speaker 4: of that nature. He's not an aristocrat. He is a

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Speaker 4: very smart kid and he's a very popular guy at

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Speaker 4: school at the University of mel But where he studies,

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Speaker 4: he's known for being an avid outdoorsman, a real sporty guy.

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Speaker 4: But he's also great at debate club. He cleans up

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Speaker 4: and he studies law, as did many of his colleagues

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Speaker 4: at the time. He graduates in nineteen thirty with a

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Speaker 4: law degree and he starts working for a local firm

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Speaker 4: before he passes the bar in nineteen thirty two and

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Speaker 4: becomes a full fledged lawyer.

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Speaker 3: He's only twenty four.

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Speaker 4: We do have to give points to the name of

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Speaker 4: his very first legal employer or his very first law firm,

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Speaker 4: Think Best and Miller.

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Speaker 5: Great name for a love think.

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Speaker 3: I don't know man first rat Like.

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Speaker 2: Is it with the accent? Though?

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Speaker 3: Maybe it is? Maybe it's like, how would that be?

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if it would be. It has to

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Speaker 4: be something with a vowel. It's true, right, uh.

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Speaker 2: Miller, Miller, basycle well.

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Speaker 4: Fabits So unfortunately, as we know, as history proves, he

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Speaker 4: becomes a lawyer at one of the worst times to

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Speaker 4: enter the job market, the Great Depression. So this bore

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Speaker 4: a little bit of homework for us because he was

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Speaker 4: not able to make a living as a barrister. Here

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Speaker 4: in the United States, when we say a lawyer, we

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Speaker 4: usually mean a barrister or what people in the Commonwealth

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Speaker 4: would call a barrister. That's the person who goes to

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Speaker 4: court and represents clients or as specialized legal advice. Because

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Speaker 4: he couldn't make a living this way, he was, you know,

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Speaker 4: he's crashing and boarding houses. He was asking friends for money.

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Speaker 4: He had to go into business instead, as something called

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Speaker 4: a solicitor. They'll handle legal matters outside of a court,

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Speaker 4: and they often do all the legal homework for the barristers.

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Speaker 4: So it's kind of like how you have a teacher

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Speaker 4: and a parapro.

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Speaker 5: Is this the same as in the UK? I guess

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Speaker 5: I've always thought that the barrister and solicitor were interchangeable.

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Speaker 4: This is interesting, Yeah, this is our understanding. We'd love

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Speaker 4: to hear more from legal experts in the Commonwealth, which has,

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Speaker 4: you know, a couple different rules of the legal road.

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Speaker 4: But in short, either way you look at it, it

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Speaker 4: was a less auspicious job. Times were tough for everybody

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Speaker 4: during the depression, other than the folks who you know,

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Speaker 4: caused the depression. However, his father at this time had

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Speaker 4: moved on. He was no longer a school teacher. He

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Speaker 4: was now working in the world of entertainment. He was

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Speaker 4: managing theaters. He was partnered with some radio concerns, and

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Speaker 4: these contacts in the entertainment industry, combined with Holt's affable

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Speaker 4: nature and his gregarious approach to things, they made him

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Speaker 4: a great success. He took a job as secretary of

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Speaker 4: the Victorian Cinematograph Cinematograph Cinematograph.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I probably overdid it, but that's fine. That's a tough one.

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Speaker 4: They are exhibitors association. So he was the secretary of

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Speaker 4: a film industry lobby. And while he was working in

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Speaker 4: this capacity, we see him cultivating relationships with a lot

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Speaker 4: of politicians, a lot of up and comers, a lot

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Speaker 4: of celebrities and public figures as well.

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Speaker 2: So let's pause here just to remember some of the

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Speaker 2: stuff we've learned about the entertainment industry here in the

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Speaker 2: United States, where you know, these films oftentimes are so

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Speaker 2: expensive it's difficult to fund all of them. So funding

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Speaker 2: comes from other places, often private investment in a particular

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Speaker 2: film or in let's say, a certain company that is

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Speaker 2: making a bunch of films, right.

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Speaker 3: Sure, or sometimes international.

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Speaker 2: Investment, sometimes international investment just and sometimes not always obviously,

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Speaker 2: but sometimes that money comes from places that you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe they want you to pay him back, and they

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Speaker 2: want to make a little money off of this thing.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that money was under the table or was made

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Speaker 2: from means that wouldn't be above board, right.

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Speaker 4: Or wouldn't pass the domestic financial regulations of Australia. That's

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Speaker 4: why we have to point out international investment water that

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Speaker 4: one a little.

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Speaker 2: All that is to say this, this part of his

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Speaker 2: life is kind of key to some of the conspiratorial

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Speaker 2: thoughts that exist around his disappearance.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and shortly after passing the bar, he inculcates himself

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Speaker 4: in this, in this industry and all the connections it provides.

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Speaker 4: He also enters politics in a big way, which is

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Speaker 4: a natural transition, right or a natural He joins the UAP,

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Speaker 4: the United Australia Party and various subsidiaries thereof the original

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Speaker 4: UAP exactly, the original UAP perfect, And he repeatedly and

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Speaker 4: unsuccessfully runs for office until nineteen thirty five or so.

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Speaker 4: That's when he snags a rule in parliament. This leads

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Speaker 4: to even greater success. Here in the US, we often

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Speaker 4: use the phrase career politician as a insult, right, as

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Speaker 4: a denigrating remark. But he is a career politician. He's

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Speaker 4: twenty seven when he goes into parliament, and he spends

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Speaker 4: thirty two years in office. Yeah, and people like him,

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Speaker 4: people dig him well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And he is also just one of those names

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Speaker 2: that imagine hearing the same politician's name for thirty five years. Right,

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Speaker 2: So like when you're a kid learning about politics, you

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Speaker 2: hear the name. Now you're you're older, you've got your

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Speaker 2: first job, you hear the same name in politics. Even

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Speaker 2: if you don't know this person, right, you just hear

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Speaker 2: him talking and talking and talking. It's a kind of name,

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Speaker 2: like a Nancy Pelosi here in the United States.

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Speaker 3: Or strom Thurmond.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't know that much about them, maybe necessarily

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Speaker 2: even personally or what they stand for, but just you

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Speaker 2: know they're there and they've been there. So it's almost like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, there's that familiarity thing that makes people

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Speaker 2: household na things, yeah, or maybe not like things. But

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Speaker 2: when you have that familiarity, it's almost as though you're

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Speaker 2: more likely to have a positive view on it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, perhaps right, whether the devil one knows, he also

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Speaker 4: has great pr Maybe part of that is due to

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Speaker 4: his his understanding of the entertainment business. He's an avid outdoorsman, right,

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Speaker 4: so there are photo ops of him like spearfishing. He

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Speaker 4: doesn't want a bunch of security because he feels it

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Speaker 4: alienates him from the common voter, and he has all

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Speaker 4: these outdoor adventures. He's a likable guy.

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Speaker 5: So on January the twenty sixth of nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 5: Harold does go on to become the seventeenth Prime Minister

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Speaker 5: of Australia, and this sort of caps off what many

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Speaker 5: would consider a logical trajectory in his astonishing rise to power,

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Speaker 5: his successful traversing of the political ranks. You know, so

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Speaker 5: maybe like the I don't know, you could maybe even

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Speaker 5: say a positive version of that career politician. Maybe right

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Speaker 5: at least he's liked, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he starts from the bottom. You know, he's seen

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Speaker 4: as an everyman. He's erudite, but he's not a nerd.

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Speaker 4: He's physically fit, but he's not a jock or a

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Speaker 4: meat head.

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Speaker 3: He's the he's somebody who has something for every voter.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the way John F. Kennedy type figure in some.

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Speaker 2: Ways when you say yeah, but I think this fact

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Speaker 2: that he goes out, I mean, he is a spear fisherman.

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Speaker 2: Towards the end of his life, he was just talking

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Speaker 2: about going on spearfishing trips. He's like, oh, yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: let's actually go spearfishing in a couple of days, or

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Speaker 2: maybe tomorrow, let's go Yeah, let's go spearfishing. And this

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Speaker 2: is an older gentleman like that's just cool.

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Speaker 4: It's also yeah, it reminds me of you know, there's

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Speaker 4: that kind of soft touch diplomacy that you see in

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Speaker 4: some Western political figures, like I can't remember, I think

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Speaker 4: was the.

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Speaker 3: In Ireland.

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Speaker 4: There's a guy who's famous for always bringing his dog

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Speaker 4: to everything.

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Speaker 2: That's cool, Yeah, and.

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Speaker 3: I get it right, But another this isn't.

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Speaker 2: Like going I'm not a big avid golfer, no man,

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Speaker 2: I spearfish.

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Speaker 4: Right right, right, Yeah, golf also has a different, different

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Speaker 4: vibe here in the States. It has for a while. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: he does spearfish though. He's about that life and people

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Speaker 4: are starting to ask themselves, you know what an amazing,

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Speaker 4: thoroughly Australian success story. What sort of legacy will Prime

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Speaker 4: Minister Holt imprint upon our land? What kind of changes

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Speaker 4: could this every man's administration make for the world? We

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Speaker 4: will never know. It's about twenty two months after he

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Speaker 4: attains office when Harold Holt disappears to date, as we

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Speaker 4: record on Monday April seventh, twenty twenty five. He has

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Speaker 4: not been seen since officially, So what happened? We'll tell

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Speaker 4: you after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 4: I think we have to begin by thanking an author

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Speaker 4: named T. R. Frame who wrote the book The Life

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Speaker 4: and Death of Harold Holt, So we want to this

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Speaker 4: is one of the best primary sources to read all

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Speaker 4: the twists and turns and context here, and a lot

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Speaker 4: of the work you'll see is actually quoting that book.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and let's also shout out the National Film and

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Speaker 2: Sound Archive of Australia as well as the National Archives

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Speaker 2: THEMSE of Australia, because they've got the original documentation on

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Speaker 2: all of the stuff that everything's built on, the original

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Speaker 2: reports that came from you know, both the Commonwealth and

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Speaker 2: from the news media at the time.

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Speaker 5: Not yeah, not to derail too much, but I just

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Speaker 5: think it's so neat. The idea seem the obvious of

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Speaker 5: like what was Australian cinema like.

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Speaker 3: In the sixties and seventies.

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Speaker 5: It's just a world that's completely other than like Mad

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Speaker 5: Max and Priscilla, Queen of the Desert and maybe a

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Speaker 5: couple other Australian films that are more modern. Like I

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Speaker 5: have no idea, but there must have been a rich

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Speaker 5: culture of cinema for them to have an organization like this,

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Speaker 5: and now it makes me really want to kind of

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Speaker 5: dig in to that world and find out who was

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Speaker 5: like the Coppola of Australia, you know.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, the Copola Australia. I like that. It'd be a

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Speaker 3: good one to check out.

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Speaker 4: Do tell us, folks, and what did Harold Holt like

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Speaker 4: to watch exactly?

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Speaker 3: You know? So we know that he we know that

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Speaker 3: he did love.

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Speaker 4: The outdoors, but obviously he would have to be a

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Speaker 4: fan of cinema as well. When he disappears, he is

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Speaker 4: with a group of friends and they're swimming at a beach.

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Speaker 4: We'll attempt the pronunciation cheviot or cheviot beach c h

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Speaker 4: e v IoT.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to shout out, Morgan Kurajeong, I think

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Speaker 2: is how you would say it on YouTube. Just found

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Speaker 2: a random video he's out there and he calls it

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Speaker 2: cheviot beach.

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Speaker 3: Cheviot beach, which is an accent. Question.

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Speaker 4: That's funny because I linked the same video in the

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Speaker 4: episode here.

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Speaker 2: Oh for real?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he describes as the most dangerous beach in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I love that guy.

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Speaker 5: Well, and that's saying a lot considering how danger as

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Speaker 5: Australian wildlife can be and just how you know, untamed

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Speaker 5: much of it is what made it so dangerous, just

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Speaker 5: like treacherous and rocky and things like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's talk about its location. Get into the beach.

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Speaker 4: So it's near Ports Sea, Victoria. When we're talking danger here,

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Speaker 4: a lot of the danger comes from the currents, ripped currents,

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Speaker 4: which can be They can appear deceptively calm, but even

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Speaker 4: experienced swimmers can be challenged or find themselves in a

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Speaker 4: situation going quickly sideways on this beach in particular.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so imagine you're pretty far into shore when there's

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Speaker 2: a low tide and you're looking out at the sea

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Speaker 2: right on the chevy At Beach. To your right there

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Speaker 2: is a like basically a very rocky beach, and to

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Speaker 2: your left there is a very rocky beach. And then

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Speaker 2: in the center it's nice and sandy or much more

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Speaker 2: sandy and clear going out. If you're hanging out in

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Speaker 2: that area with the sandy beach, where humans would want

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Speaker 2: to go and oh hey, it's a lovely beach, I

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Speaker 2: want to swim out there, there are two pretty intense

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Speaker 2: currents just beneath the water because of the rocky beaches

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Speaker 2: there to both the right and left. If you get

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Speaker 2: caught up in one of those, you're getting sucked right

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Speaker 2: out to see.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and the Beaches Act.

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Speaker 4: Actually its namesake is an iron steamer that wrecked on

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Speaker 4: the beach because of these currents back in eighteen eighty

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Speaker 4: seven and.

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Speaker 3: Thirty five people died.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 4: So it's kind of like anytime you go to a

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Speaker 4: place that's named after a disaster that occurred there. It Yeah,

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Speaker 4: tread Lightley's step carefully, walk right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, swimmy.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is the tides, Like, the tides are

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Speaker 2: pretty intense when it comes to changing what's happening beneath

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Speaker 2: the water. At a high tide in this beach, it

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Speaker 2: becomes much more treacherous.

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Speaker 5: Well, at this point, he's sixty years old, right.

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Speaker 4: He is, Yeah, at this point, he's around sixty. His

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Speaker 4: disappearance grips the country. It makes national and then international

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Speaker 4: news within twenty four hours, obviously because it's you know,

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Speaker 4: like we're saying at the top, imagine if your country's

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Speaker 4: prime minister, president, ruler simply disappeared. That is somehow more

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Speaker 4: challenging and disturbing than an assassination, as tragic as an

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Speaker 4: assassination can be. This results in a massive man hunt.

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Speaker 4: We know a little bit about the timeline. You can

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Speaker 4: find this extensively researched and documented. I found National Archives

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Speaker 4: of Australia to be a great source for this. But

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Speaker 4: you walk through the timeline and every source you see

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Speaker 4: says this is a normal day for this guy. Like

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Speaker 4: he gets up, he goes to the general store. You know,

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Speaker 4: he talks with this wife. He thinks the weather's nice,

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Speaker 4: they're gonna go He's gonna go on an excursion with

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Speaker 4: some friends.

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Speaker 3: It's very much not anomalous.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like, oh dude, it's it's it's awesome. And where

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Speaker 2: he is staying, he knows all the neighbors, right this

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Speaker 2: imagine this is the Prime Minister. He knows all the neighbors.

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Speaker 2: He's just popping by neighbors houses to have, you know,

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Speaker 2: a quick drink and hang and listen to some stereo music,

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Speaker 2: which is what said in the report by the Commonwealthfare.

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Speaker 5: As opposed to mono music.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, but he's and he's stopping by other neighbor's house.

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Speaker 2: When he goes to that story you were talking about Ben,

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Speaker 2: he that's when he talks to the store owner like

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Speaker 2: and just says, hey, let's hang out later at your place,

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Speaker 2: which happens to be his neighbor's house. He's just like

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Speaker 2: living his life almost like on a vacate of a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a vacation schedule.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And so it makes sense then logically that he

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Speaker 4: would go and do I like that idea of a

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Speaker 4: vacation schedule. Man, he would logically then go do things

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Speaker 4: people do when they're kicking back and relaxing ed as

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Speaker 4: a guy who loves the swim, that's on his list.

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Speaker 4: He's near the shore, it's go time.

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Speaker 3: We know.

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Speaker 4: He was especially excited. He and his friends were excited

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Speaker 4: about seeing a then famous sailor named Alec Rose. Alec

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Speaker 4: Rose was circumnavigating the globe on a sailing trip. Pretty

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Speaker 4: neat stuff, pretty impressive. So as he is going around

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Speaker 4: the world, he's going to make a stopover in this area,

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Speaker 4: and that's kind of their main impetus to go to

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Speaker 4: the beach that day. And Holt is there with several friends.

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Speaker 4: They're not you know, high muckety MUCKs or foreign dignitaries.

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Speaker 4: He's with a lady named Marjorie Gillespie, her daughter Viner Gillespie,

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Speaker 4: her boyfriend Martin or Marjorie's boyfriend Martin Simpson, and one

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Speaker 4: of his buddies, just one of his homeboys named Alan Stewart.

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Speaker 4: You can also see reports that he had some bodyguards

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Speaker 4: with him, which is interesting because for a long time,

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Speaker 4: before some unpleasant events, he had rejected bodyguards like full stop,

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Speaker 4: but after a couple of attacks and some close calls

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Speaker 4: in his career, he later rescented that and did have

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Speaker 4: a little bit of a security detail, so he was

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Speaker 4: not alone on the beach. There's no audio, there's no

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Speaker 4: video given the timeframe, but there were multiple eyewitnesses. Another

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Speaker 4: important piece of the story.

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Speaker 5: Well, and as we've alluded to, this guy was a

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Speaker 5: seasoned outdoorsman and well let's call him a strong swimmer, y'all.

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Speaker 5: This was something he had done many times before, and

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Speaker 5: like you said, Matt, it was kind of just another

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Speaker 5: day in the life for this man, and he had

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Speaker 5: specifically swum at this beach despite all of the warnings

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Speaker 5: around it's very very strong rip current.

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Speaker 2: Yep. It's stated by his friends who were there that

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Speaker 2: he mentioned specifically, quote, I know this beach like the

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Speaker 2: back of my hand. And he also noted that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the tide is unusually high, as in it's even at

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Speaker 2: high tide, it's not this high.

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Speaker 3: Usually, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And at this point, as you had mentioned, no, Holt

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Speaker 4: is around sixty years old, so like so many world leaders,

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Speaker 4: his age and undoubtedly the stress of his position had

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Speaker 4: caused some or contributed to some health issues. In earlier months,

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Speaker 4: he had collapsed due to what doctors suspected was either

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Speaker 4: a vitamin deficiency or possibly a heart condition, and he

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Speaker 4: had genetic predisposition to that in his family. And in

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Speaker 4: September of that same year, he had begun treatment for

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Speaker 4: an old, painful shoulder injury that he got during his

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Speaker 4: youth as a football player, as a footballer, and this

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Speaker 4: wasn't you know, debilitating to him, but it did require

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Speaker 4: him to be on a regimen of physical therapy and painkillers.

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Speaker 4: And what do you need when you swim good shoulders?

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Speaker 5: It's right, And I mean, you know, he had folks

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Speaker 5: in his inner circle that and his medical care staff

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Speaker 5: that were, you know, certainly warning him against this type

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Speaker 5: of strenuous activity and some of the potential dangers of it.

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Speaker 5: But you know, he was he was a guy who

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Speaker 5: was very confident in his abilities, and he didn't seem

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Speaker 5: to listen. Maybe he could argue he was a little

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Speaker 5: hardheaded about it.

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Speaker 3: He just quit. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's probably one of those things where they say, okay, doc,

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Speaker 4: I hear you. You worry too much. You know, you're

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Speaker 4: telling me not to go, try not to try to

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Speaker 4: swim to China. I get it, but I can go,

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Speaker 4: you know, take a dip. I could take a lap, right.

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Speaker 4: I know this water like the back of my hand.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like saying, you know, I think we

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Speaker 4: interpret that kind of medical advice in very similar ways.

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Speaker 3: Even now.

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Speaker 4: Your doctor might say, hey, don't do too much of this,

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Speaker 4: and then your head says, okay, so I can play

440
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 4: a little tennis.

441
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: You're telling me not to compete for Wimbledon, right, right.

442
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 4: So there's a matter of degree there, and it's not

443
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 4: a surprise that despite the slightly higher water level, Holt

444
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 4: decides to take a dip. In fact, he may have

445
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 4: been somewhat excited to see it, you know, it may

446
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 4: have made it feel more adventurous. One of the people

447
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 4: and the crew guy named Alan Stewart, says, okay, man,

448
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 4: I'll all right homie, I'll go with you into the

449
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 4: shallow water right just off the shore. But no one

450
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 4: in his entourage, including Alan Stewart, will venture further away

451
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 4: from the shore. Nobody wants to go with him, so

452
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: Harold Holt goes solo, and the folks who watch him

453
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: go into the water end up being, as far as

454
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 4: we know, the last folks to see Harold Holt alive.

455
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 4: Let's go to a quote from the Smithsonian. I think

456
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 4: this is just a great summation of this.

457
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Holt's four companions climbed a rocky cliff and searched

458
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 5: the water for traces of him, Finding none, they began

459
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 5: to panic. Stuart went for help, and within minutes three

460
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 5: scuba divers were wading into the water.

461
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: It continues, but the undertow was too strong even for them.

462
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: That's the scuba divers who are then going to look

463
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: for him, and the currents made the water turbid and

464
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: difficult to see in. They retreated from the surf, climbed

465
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: a rock, and scanned the water with binoculars until police

466
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: and search and rescue teams arrived. It should be noted

467
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: here that even the search and rescue teams, once they

468
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: arrive even the other They call them skin divers in

469
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: some of the reporting here. When everybody is there attempting

470
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: to look for wherever the heck mister Holt went, they

471
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: cannot even continue their search effectively because of danger things

472
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: danger the waters you can't see in, and basically the

473
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: conditions in general of the water.

474
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: Right right, which are also ever changing.

475
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: You know, when someone disappears in water, especially this kind

476
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 4: of situation, it's not impossible for as gold as it sounds,

477
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 4: it's not impossible for the body to quickly disappear or

478
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 4: be washed away. And there's another part in the Smithsonian article.

479
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: Just loved the writing on this where it seems to

480
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 4: apply that of the people on the scene, Marjorie Gillespie

481
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 4: is the last to actually see Holt. She keeps an

482
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 4: eye on Holt as he swims further away, quote, drifting

483
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 4: from them, until the water seemed to boil around him

484
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 4: and he disappeared. That's the part that stays with you

485
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: because that turbid water. That description just shows us how

486
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 4: violent and chaotic the tides and the currents were becoming.

487
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: The movement of the water also makes me think of

488
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: a potential animal attack or something if he's that far

489
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: out and then you see alarn bubbles or something happening

490
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: below him, like, it could mean that something came up

491
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: and pulled him down, at least initially. And if you're

492
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: that far out, it's going to be difficult to see

493
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: if he's then under the water being attacked.

494
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 4: And if you already have a shoulder injury, then an

495
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 4: injury that you could have swam away from, yeah, might

496
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 4: be debilitating to the point where you lose motion well.

497
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 5: And if I'm not a second the same riptides that

498
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 5: would carry you out in that direction in the first

499
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 5: place would do the very same to any remains.

500
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: It is interesting to me with a shoulder injury because

501
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 2: it's reported in the National Archives when the Commonwealth did

502
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: the investigation that he played tennis the Saturday before he

503
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: went missing. And if anyone who's ever played tennis, that's

504
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: your shoulder, right, I mean, that's everything is in your shoulder.

505
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: And I believe the quote from doctor Bruce Edwards, that's

506
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: the person they played with. He said he didn't mister

507
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: Holt didn't play up to his regular standards and he

508
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: did complain of his shoulder, but he still played tennis

509
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: just fine.

510
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 4: Right, Like, that's what we're saying with the swimming too.

511
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 4: You know, you're aggravating an injury too. Yeah, and you're

512
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: engaging in that repetitive motion.

513
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: It's to me it sounds like something that would be

514
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: really painful if he had to swim, you know, it

515
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: would hurt really badly, but he would still be able

516
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: to do it. Does that make sense?

517
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah?

518
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 4: And this is These are some of the many questions

519
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 4: that have been asked over the decades since nineteen sixty seven. However,

520
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 4: once five days had passed and searches were still continuing, right,

521
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 4: investigations were still continuing. But the nation is a nation, right,

522
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 4: And so five days had passed, Holt is declared gone

523
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: and Australia continues with the business of government. But perhaps

524
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: the most important question, one that's been asked in multiple ways,

525
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 4: multiple times ever since that day in December, is this

526
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 4: what happened? So we're going to pause for word from

527
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 4: our sponsor and we'll dive into the theories.

528
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 5: And we're back. So, guys, what actually happened to Holt?

529
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: Do we know, well, he disappeared as we know that.

530
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 4: We know that, we know that the Australian government has

531
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: ever since their initial investigation, including in quest as recently

532
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 4: as two thousand and five, they have always concluded the

533
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: explanation is that Holt disappeared, not just didn't just disappear

534
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 4: at see but drowned by accident and that led to

535
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 4: his death. This is understandable. Again, it's a notoriously dangerous

536
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 4: stretch of beach, even for experienced swimmers. But you know,

537
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: this happens in so much conspiracy lore. Given Holt's high

538
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 4: political position, the pivotal role of Australian and global governance,

539
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 4: the tense issues of the region and the time, it's

540
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 4: no surprise that there were alternative theories that would arise

541
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 4: to explain his vanishing, you know, especially because to date

542
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 4: nobody has been recovered.

543
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of talk at the very beginning,

544
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: like we're talking early January nineteen sixty eight. People were thinking, well,

545
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: is it possible that mister Holt decided to swim out

546
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: there and knowing it was dangerous, knowing that his life

547
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: was in danger, and knowing that he would likely die,

548
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: like as in, did he do this on purpose?

549
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: Right?

550
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 4: The possibility that may he may have taken his own life,

551
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 4: And this is initial scuttle, but right, it's a less

552
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 4: speculation that, as we can imagine, would be tremendously offensive

553
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 4: to friends and more importantly family. The proponents of this

554
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 4: idea were saying, I have it on good record, or

555
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 4: I have it on anonymous record, that Holt was depressed,

556
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 4: perhaps mentally unstable in the months leading up to his disappearance,

557
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 4: that for one reason or another he felt his political

558
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: career was damaged or inherently doomed.

559
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: And so let's go really quickly to the Kimber of

560
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: Times in nineteen sixty eight January twenty second, and this

561
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: this is right after the official reporting is released, the

562
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: one that the Commonwealth puts together. So all the police,

563
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: working together with the investigators, all of the initial witnesses,

564
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: anybody that interacted with mister Holt basically weeks before his disappearance,

565
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: they make a very let's say, strong point to talk

566
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: about how mister Holt was his normal self at the time.

567
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: They go to a lot of those initial witnesses who

568
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: say things like he quote was in good spirits, in

569
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: his usual jovial mood. Another person, mister Edgar, says he

570
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: was in excellent health and spirits. And then even a

571
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: doctor who examined him on Friday, December fifteenth, just days

572
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 2: before he went, just said quote there was no reason

573
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: either physical or mental, that could cause or contribute to

574
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: his death under ordinary circumstances.

575
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 4: Additionally, it made no statements to that effect to friends

576
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 4: or family.

577
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: He had shown know what you would call suicidal ideation.

578
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: And even though.

579
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 4: Some of the quotes that are rallying against this at

580
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 4: the time, their attribution is not super great, there is

581
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 4: a uniform stance in the media and in statements from

582
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 4: neighbors and friends, because he knew a lot of people

583
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 4: and they're all so this feels like unfounded speculation. But

584
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 4: to jump in time a little bit, if we're explored

585
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 4: by theory rather than by chronology, this idea or this

586
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: theory of suicide is still around right now, most particularly

587
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 4: because in two thousand and seven Australian network called nine

588
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 4: Network aired a made for TV documentary about the disappearance

589
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 4: called Who Killed Harold Holt? And in this documentary a

590
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 4: bit of a loaded title, right, I.

591
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 3: Mean right, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

592
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 4: And in this documentary they treat claims of suicide with

593
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 4: I think more credence than they should and when people

594
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 4: hear that claim despite being initially dismissed, when they hear

595
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 4: that claim being given so much credibility decades later, you know,

596
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: the average viewer might say, huh, quite possibly. And so

597
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 4: many Australians are so many viewers we should say, who

598
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 4: saw this started along this line or giving sand to

599
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 4: this theory that living friends of the missing Harold Holt

600
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 4: and his family rallied in strident reaction. And I always

601
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 4: just exercise empathy. It's got to be terrible for your

602
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 4: father to disappear. This is something Sam Holt had to

603
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 4: deal with. Your father has disappeared all of a sudden.

604
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: Decades later, you're still dealing with this trauma. Some network

605
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 4: airs a show that says your dad killed himself, and

606
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 4: now you have to go back on air and say, hey,

607
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 4: thanks for bringing this up. Also, as we always said

608
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 4: for decades, no, I mean, that's a terrible thing to

609
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 4: do to anybody's family.

610
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, to me, it feels like no offense, guys, and

611
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,959
Speaker 2: to myself as well, a bunch of producers sitting around saying, ah,

612
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 2: what's juicy about this Harold Holt story that we could

613
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: make a whole thing on You know, it's.

614
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 3: All on the title.

615
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 5: You know, it's pretty exactly as other journalism.

616
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 4: It's the title, right, it might be frank imbiting. So

617
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 4: it's gross. And as we said, the police always disagreed

618
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 4: with the suicide theory. Every reputable source that you will find,

619
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: and even some disreputable sources spoiler, disagree with that theory.

620
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: But it's not the only theory at play.

621
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 4: A second one which doesn't get I think a whole

622
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 4: lot of attention is the possibility that Holt was somehow murdered,

623
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 4: that maybe someone sent him out to the water. And

624
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: that's based on the small number of eyewitnesses. That's also

625
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 4: based on the fact that there's no audio or visual recording,

626
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 4: and that's based on the fact still that they haven't

627
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 4: found the body. So that's really just a hall of

628
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 4: mirrored unknowns I would call it.

629
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 5: But again, like I really like Matt's animal will attack

630
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 5: theory with the bubbling waters and stuff, and again that riptide,

631
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 5: I mean, it would be highly unlikely they'd find the body.

632
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: Just to yes, but just to contradict myself, it feels

633
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: as though there would be more evidence floating debreas of clothing.

634
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 5: Thatide, though it sucks everything out. I mean, maybe, you know,

635
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 5: it's pretty intense. Maybe I wouldn't have left the shred behind.

636
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 5: But I'm with you, Matt, I'm with you.

637
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 4: The yeah, well, the the inquest again they looked at

638
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: the possibility of animals too, and they found bupkus.

639
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. We we do know that on a lot of

640
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 2: shores of Australia and a lot of you know, beaches

641
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: and places, it is very dangerous to be swimming out

642
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: in the water because of the specific species of sharks

643
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: that populate a lot of those waters.

644
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 3: Or just the jellyfish.

645
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: And the jellyfish and the snakes really just anything, uh, spiders, No,

646
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: I'm just I guess what I mean is I I've

647
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: remember recently, guys, and I can't remember exactly what it was.

648
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: I think it was an episode of Radio Rental or

649
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: something that I just watched. They talked about the extremely

650
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: dangerous waters in Australia in a bunch of places that

651
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: you wouldn't expect to be dangerous, like this place if

652
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: you just came upon it, especially back in the day

653
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: when there were steps going down into the water. It

654
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 2: looked friendly, like a place where people could just go swim.

655
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: If you wanted to. You just wouldn't expect. Oh no,

656
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: there's like a pretty good chance you die here if you.

657
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 4: Just happened upon it. You know, you're from out of town,

658
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 4: you haven't spoken with the locals, you don't have you know,

659
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 4: the Internet or something like that. Sure, and that's probably

660
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 4: led to deaths, not just in this area, but in

661
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 4: multiple areas of the world. Right, It's easy to underestimate

662
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 4: the dangers of the shore, in the ocean, or just

663
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: water in general, you know, because humans, despite being built

664
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 4: of water, humans are not built for water.

665
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: It's probably the best way put it.

666
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: The Yeah, I think those were tiger sharks, by the way,

667
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: the ones that I'm thinking about from.

668
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: That specific radio rental.

669
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. So it's like just where tiger sharks exist,

670
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: not in this beach that we're talking about today, just

671
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: a beach that you wouldn't expect. There's a ton of

672
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: sharks below the waters.

673
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, or even or the tricky little guys who hide

674
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 4: under the sand.

675
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're a way for you to step on them.

676
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: Another perhaps one of the more bizarre theories here are.

677
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,439
Speaker 4: The bizarre set of theories is that Harold Holt did

678
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 4: not die at all. But rather instead of purposely dying,

679
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 4: he purposely disappeared. And there are a few versions of

680
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 4: this one and one Holt fakes his death. He's gonna

681
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 4: commit pseudo sides, start a new life under an assumed identity.

682
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 4: None of this is really none of these I think

683
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 4: the general ones are fact based. They have all the

684
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 4: trappings of a gripping story, you know, high politics celebrity

685
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: like Asa Brock would say fast car, danger, fire and knives.

686
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 4: But to make a theory like this really zing, you

687
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 4: got to throw a little bit more into the cauldron.

688
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: Right, So how about this? Right?

689
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 4: What if for the entire entirety of his political career,

690
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 4: the Minister of Australia Harold Holt was a spy?

691
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: You know, he was an asset?

692
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 4: Would you imagine, I mean for people who didn't live

693
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 4: in Australia.

694
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: It's a cool story, but you know.

695
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 4: Could you imagine, just guys, hypothetically, how terrible it would

696
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 4: be for a country if its leader was the asset

697
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 4: of a foreign power.

698
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: Hmm, that would be really strange. I wonder how you

699
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: would figure that out.

700
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm just saying hypothetically, I think that would be

701
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 4: a chaotic time to be it.

702
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 6: It'd be a weird time tariffs. Wait what what imagine?

703
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 6: Imagine that it's almost too absurd to even consider.

704
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, there we go, jumping in there, becoming prime minister,

705
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: you know, destroying the economy.

706
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 4: Doing things that are purposely, purposely against the interest of

707
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 4: the people.

708
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like dismantle all of the stuff that helps

709
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: the country.

710
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 4: Yeah right, oh boy, So this is the pitch. This

711
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 4: is a real pitch made by a British author named

712
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 4: Anthony Gray in his book they published in nineteen eighty three,

713
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 4: named in a burst of creativity, the Prime Minister was

714
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: a spy.

715
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: Once again.

716
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 5: Man, they're really on the nose of these titles.

717
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

718
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 5: Not leave it much to the imagination here.

719
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting. Let's let's let's go down the

720
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 2: rabbit hole a little bit. Guys. What if mister Holt

721
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: was indeed working for China the whole time.

722
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 4: Which is crazy, because China had a bit of a

723
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 4: sea change themselves as a government over the time that

724
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 4: Holt would have been an asset. It was a nationalist

725
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 4: government and then you may have heard about it, it

726
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 4: became a communist government. So this book would argue that

727
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 4: he was a spy for both versions of the Chinese

728
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:34,959
Speaker 4: government somehow, somehow right. The most spectacular claim is that

729
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 4: Holt was depressed, despite what everybody says to the contrary,

730
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 4: Harold Holt was depressed, But he wasn't depressed because his

731
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 4: career was over. He was depressed because he knew people

732
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 4: are catching on he would be exposed. So instead of

733
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: resigning and risking prison, he faked his own death. He

734
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 4: swam in waters known to be extremely dangerous, made statements

735
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,919
Speaker 4: about how he knew the waters were dangerous, and when

736
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 4: he went under the water, he secretly boarded a submersible

737
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 4: stationed off the coast. It was a Chinese craft that

738
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 4: would take him to Beijing. And he lived out the

739
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 4: rest of his life in comfort and obscurity, never contacting

740
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 4: his children, never contacting his wife, never contacting any of

741
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 4: his best friends, or even you know, picking up the

742
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: phone when people called, well.

743
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, Ben, you sadly were on Adventurers. When we talked

744
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 5: to Maggie recently about up and Vanished weekly and the

745
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 5: idea of pseudo side came up, And in fact, Maggie

746
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 5: mentioned that book that you're always referencing Ben, and I'm

747
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 5: totally losing the.

748
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 3: Night by Elizabeth Woods.

749
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 5: That's plain dead a million percent and just once again,

750
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 5: how incredibly challenging. Dare we say impossible? Not impossible? It

751
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 5: would be to unlive yourself in that fashion.

752
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 4: Most people mess up because they ask for money or

753
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 4: they re re emerge for a personal contact.

754
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: Look, guys, I want to get back into the China thing, because,

755
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: as you said, Ben, we're talking about the differences and

756
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 2: the changes in China that occurred like nineteen forty nine

757
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: on when the Republic of China is declared to be

758
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: the People's Republic of China. But then the Republic of

759
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 2: China that was still recognized by a lot of other countries,

760
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: including the United States. And I do not know, but

761
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: I am assuming probably Australia, the Republic of China that

762
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: power is still recognized, but as seated in Taiwan. Yes,

763
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: so that concept of during that time we're talking nineteen

764
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: sixty seven, right end of sixty seven, there is potential

765
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: there for spycraft to I don't know, exist, I don't know.

766
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: It feels less and less that weird to me, I

767
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: guess just the fact that he's an acting Prime minister

768
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: feels a little weird, but just both of those powers

769
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 2: on the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China,

770
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 2: both those powers wanting to have high level spycraft activities.

771
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.

772
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 4: It's also there is a tricky thing here past the

773
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 4: umami of the story, which is at that level of

774
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 4: state power, when you're the prime minister, you're already wrapped

775
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 4: up in a bunch of espionage stuff.

776
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

777
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 4: You may not yeah, you might not even know it.

778
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 4: Like how vetted is your cook? How vetted is your secretary?

779
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 4: That's these are the questions. So it's it sounds like

780
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 4: a really good story, but it even it gets even

781
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 4: weirder when we learn more about Anthony Gray, the author.

782
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 4: He's alive today, he used to work for Reuters. He's

783
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 4: a novelist, he's a journalist. He's in his eighties. I

784
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 4: believe he knows China pretty well, or at least the

785
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 4: inside of China these prison cells, because he was captured

786
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 4: and locked away there from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen

787
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 4: sixty nine.

788
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: So the year.

789
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 4: Disappears, this guy has also disappeared right behind the Great Wall,

790
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 4: and he gets out of prison in nineteen sixty nine.

791
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 4: In May of nineteen eighty three, Anthony Gray, per his

792
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 4: own reports, he gets a call from an anonymous source

793
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 4: who essentially says.

794
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 3: I'm stayed anonymous. I know what happened to Harold holt Hold.

795
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 5: He had to lay on his voice name.

796
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 4: Whoa yeah, kick him with some reverb, you know when

797
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 4: you're going anonymous. But yeah, so that's this guy that

798
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 4: he contacts. We now know his anonymous source, and the

799
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 4: anonymous source puts another twist into the story.

800
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 5: That's right. He was later identified as one Ronald Titcom

801
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 5: Titcomb whatever you like, a former Royal Australian Navy officer

802
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 5: with quite the rap sheet, quite the dirty jacket, as

803
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 5: you put it. Ben. He'd earlier left the Navy in

804
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 5: order to avoid a court martial because he was a

805
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 5: real naughty boy whoopsie.

806
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 3: Oh.

807
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 4: And he also after leaving the Navy, he had a

808
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 4: lot of financial problems. He kept tempting to create businesses

809
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 4: that would fall into disrepute. He had a lot of

810
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 4: debts that he found very challenging. When you're looking at

811
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 4: people's credibility, sometimes you do have to look at their finances.

812
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 4: So critics of Gray's book will say that.

813
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 3: Titcomb is sorry.

814
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 4: We'll say that Titcomb is out to make a quick

815
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 4: buck off of off of this tragic disappearance, and that

816
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 4: no matter what you believe happened to Harold Holt, this

817
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 4: book itself is not going to be It should not

818
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 4: be your prime source for information. The idea is, okay,

819
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 4: there are multiple claims in here that can be proven

820
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 4: factually inaccurate. The pitch is that the story begins in

821
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 4: nineteen twenty nine. Holt is at the He's a student,

822
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 4: right as we said, He's at the University of Melbourne,

823
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 4: and one of his research papers comes to the attention

824
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 4: of the Chinese government for some reason, and then he

825
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 4: gets recruited by the Melbourne Chinese consulate to write pro

826
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 4: Chinese articles. Were a trade publication, That's what they're saying.

827
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 4: And Ronald, I'm just going to call Ronald. You get

828
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 4: it in my head with Titcom Ronald is Ronald is

829
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 4: saying that he discovered this story after a civil servant

830
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 4: from a rock tipped him off, and then he gradually

831
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 4: pieced it together after meeting with different Chinese government officials

832
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 4: who for some reason told him the story that's the

833
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 4: other question.

834
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 3: What I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like, okay,

835
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 3: so to the question you have, Matt, about what we're

836
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 3: talking about.

837
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 4: Working during the Chinese Communist Revolution, which side do you choose?

838
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 4: Apparently he becomes a sleeper agent, which meant he would

839
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 4: just continue along his bureaucratic political path for a while,

840
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 4: and then they would tell him when he needed to

841
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 4: send a memo right or needed to link some info,

842
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 4: leak some info. But he was too valuable, he was

843
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 4: too good, so they reactive because of the chaos happening

844
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 4: in China, and the Taiwan East side paid him in

845
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty two, but then in fifty four he said, no,

846
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 4: I'm a communist sympathizer, so he switched the party to them.

847
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 4: Like the whole the whole story is the allegation of

848
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 4: him hopping back and forth across the lines of conflict

849
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 4: there and ultimately he gets to escape. He gets to

850
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 4: escape in a submarine. I just I don't know, I

851
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 4: don't see it happening. And I got a little too

852
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 4: weird with this, Like what was submarine technology like at

853
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 4: the time? How many subs did they have? You know,

854
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 4: do they have the wherewithal to just go pick up

855
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 4: this one guy who may have already expended his use.

856
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 4: Because one thing governments are not great at in tradecraft

857
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:55,320
Speaker 4: is keeping their word.

858
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 5: That's very true.

859
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: There you go, there you go. You know, this is

860
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: making me think about something I haven't really considered in

861
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 2: this case, and that is the JFK Lyndon Johnson of

862
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 2: it all. I go on, yeah, well, just this concept

863
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 2: of the power vacuum that remains when a prime minister

864
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 2: or president or somebody just departs suddenly like that we're

865
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: no longer in that seat. I wonder about the other

866
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 2: powers that would fill in, right, like who becomes prime

867
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: minister after Holt exits? And you know what is what

868
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: is that infighting like between you know, even inside the

869
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 2: same party, right and then also the other parties like arguing, well,

870
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 2: now this is a whole change. What do we do now?

871
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 2: Who gets to decide? Do we have an election? Do

872
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 2: we do this? What do we do? I just found

873
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 2: something on the National Film and Sound Archive of Australia.

874
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: It's from the Nine network in nineteen sixty seven, and

875
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: it's talking about Deputy Prime Minister John McEwen mce e

876
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: w E n Yeah, it.

877
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 3: Becomes the caretaker prime minister.

878
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like the he's kind of the Linda Johnson

879
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 2: who's like, well, next in line, Okay, you step in.

880
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: You're now going to act at least in this position

881
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 2: for a couple of weeks. I think it's only two

882
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: or three weeks that he actually did that. But then

883
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 2: there's also a treasurer named William McMahon m c m

884
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: A h O N. And they were kind of fighting

885
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 2: back and forth about who is actually going to get

886
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: the power and why and I'm gonna leave if you

887
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 2: get in there. Oh you're you're not ready for this

888
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff.

889
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:37,919
Speaker 3: And they're there.

890
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 4: Their political anatomy is not as simple as the sort

891
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 4: of two party system we have in the US coalitions,

892
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 4: right and all that, Right, right, mc ewen is the

893
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 4: leader of what they call the Country Party. As he said,

894
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 4: he's the caretaker prime minister, sort of the substitute prime

895
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 4: minister from December nineteenth till I guess January ninth, like

896
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 4: you said, just a few weeks and the Liberal Party

897
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 4: has a leadership election, it gets a whole thing that's

898
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 4: frankly a little bit complicated for us Yankees because we

899
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 4: only have the two parties well, yeah, that are allowed

900
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 4: to run or succeed.

901
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 2: I honestly don't even understand how you put those pieces

902
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 2: together and say, well, who's actually benefiting from any of this?

903
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: Or you know, if you were looking at potential suspects

904
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: for foul play any and that kind of stuff, you

905
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: need to know why, right, who's the person who benefits?

906
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 2: So it just I don't know enough about this. I've

907
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 2: only I've literally looked at it for a few seconds.

908
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: But it doesn't seem like enough change occurred or enough

909
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 2: I don't know. It didn't seem like anybody benefited enough

910
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 2: to point a finger, at least in my eyes.

911
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Greg Gorton becomes the nineteenth Prime Minister after a series.

912
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 3: Of intense what Corporate America would call healthy conversations.

913
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then didn't McMahon also get in there.

914
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 4: I believe that's correct. It's something that we would have

915
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 4: to look into, I think, further in depth.

916
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 3: But that is excellent.

917
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 4: The most important part of that question, I think is

918
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 4: it shows us how many stakeholders there were, how many

919
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 4: people would have been required to sustain a conspiracy if

920
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:42,439
Speaker 4: such existed, and it does look as though. It does

921
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 4: look as though, because of the extraordinary nature of this tragedy,

922
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 4: people will continue to re examine it. If we go

923
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 4: to the report by the Commonwealth in Victoria Police from

924
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 4: January of nineteen sixty eight, we see the following there's

925
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,919
Speaker 4: been no indication that the disappearance of the late mister

926
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 4: Holt was anything other than accidental, and then in two

927
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 4: thousand and five a later in quest finds the same thing.

928
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 4: It's it really does feel like this is a tragic

929
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 4: example of man versus nature rather than man versus man.

930
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 3: I don't know, what do you think? What do you think?

931
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 5: Guys?

932
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, to me, that's at least that's what I've seen.

933
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: After everything we've looked at, it does appear that somebody

934
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: underestimated what he was getting into. He took a little dip,

935
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 2: went out a little further. There's a mention in the

936
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 2: Canberra Times back in sixty eight where they talk about

937
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 2: his sand shoes that he was wearing didn't have laces

938
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 2: on him, and everybody thought that was a bit weird, like,

939
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: why would you go out there in sand shoes without

940
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 2: laces if you're going to actually take a dip in

941
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 2: the water.

942
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 5: Also, what are sand shoes.

943
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 3: Laces?

944
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't know any of these things.

945
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 3: What are shoes?

946
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 4: No, it's it's true though, but it shows us people

947
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 4: were scrambling for any of lead, right, any sort of

948
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 4: break in the case. This is a tremendous tragedy and remains.

949
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: So if you want to go deeper in this whole thing,

950
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 2: you can find on the National Archives of Australia a

951
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 2: PDF file of the contents of mister Holt's briefcase at

952
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 2: the time of his disappearance, which is a really fascinating

953
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 2: thing to go through. So it's all of the papers,

954
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 2: all of the official documentation pertaining to both his work

955
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: as Prime Minister and the human being mister Holt that

956
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 2: are hanging out in his briefcase when he does and

957
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 2: it's officially on record, and you know, see if there's

958
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,959
Speaker 2: any rabbit holes you can find in there.

959
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 4: And we'd again like to thank T. R. Frame, the

960
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 4: author of the Life and Death of Harold Holt. If

961
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 4: you'd like to learn more, this is one of the

962
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 4: best places to start, So thank you mister Frame for

963
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 4: your tireless scholarship on this tragedy.

964
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: We want to hear from you folks.

965
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 4: We want to hear your take, especially Australian conspiracy realists.

966
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 4: But you don't have to be Aussies. We just want

967
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 4: your thoughts. Is there anything you feel the investigations have missed?

968
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 4: What do you make of these alternative theories?

969
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 3: Let us know. We try to be easy to find online.

970
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 5: That's right. You can find us at the handle conspiracy

971
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 5: stuff where we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group.

972
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 5: Here's where it gets crazy. Join in on the conversation,

973
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 5: have a ball, make some new friends in the conspiracy

974
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 5: realist community. You can also find us that handle on

975
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 5: x FKA, Twitter and on YouTube. We have video content

976
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 5: color for your perusing enjoyment on Instagram and TikTok. However,

977
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 5: where conspiracy Stuff show and there's.

978
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 2: More, you can give us a call. Our number is

979
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: one eight three three std WYTK. When you call in,

980
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know within

981
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 2: the message if we can use your name and message

982
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 2: on the air. If you'd like to instead send us

983
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 2: an email, you can.

984
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 4: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

985
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 4: we receive. Be well aware that un afraid, sometimes the

986
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 4: void writes back.

987
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, we're catching up with a

988
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 3: few of you this very evening. What do we mean?

989
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: Is it true? Do we actually write back? There's one

990
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 3: way to find out.

991
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 4: Join us here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

992
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

993
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

994
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.