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Speaker 1: Hey Brian, Hi Katie. Well, it was great to be

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Speaker 1: with you in Los Angeles last week. It was so

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Speaker 1: fun for me to see Eliza, who's gotten so big

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Speaker 1: and really seems to like cheese. Well, we keep feeding

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Speaker 1: her so she keeps growing, and she she loved, she loved,

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Speaker 1: meaning Katie. She's heard a lot about you. She told

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Speaker 1: me afterwards that you're not nearly as bad as I said,

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Speaker 1: So I think you got a new thing. Thankful lot, Brian.

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Speaker 1: I have seen her since she was an itty bitty baby,

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Speaker 1: and it's just amazing she's how old now, Brian, she's

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Speaker 1: almost two, and you should come to l A more

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Speaker 1: often and hang out girls chat with She was adorable

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Speaker 1: and of course Brian has a wonderful wife, Claire, and

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Speaker 1: I always love seeing Claire as well. So we also

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Speaker 1: did something we don't normally do, and that is we

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Speaker 1: had a photo shoot. We were ready for our close

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Speaker 1: ups because we're taking some new pictures for the podcast.

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Speaker 1: We want a fresh and up the look and of

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Speaker 1: course includes your beautiful mug and more of the photos. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think you have a future male

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Speaker 1: modeling Brian. Oh yeah, and if you believe that I've

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Speaker 1: got a Trump University dude you to give you anyway. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I handed the photographer a twenty for some air brushing,

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Speaker 1: so hopefully that works. Yeah. Sure. Anyway, it was a

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Speaker 1: lot of fun and it was fun to see you,

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Speaker 1: and as I said, it was great fun to see

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Speaker 1: Eliza and Claire. Meanwhile, I'm back in New York. I'm

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Speaker 1: not traveling for an entire month. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: get on an airplane because my life has been insane

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Speaker 1: with a lot of travel the beginning of the summer.

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Speaker 1: So now I'm just keeping my feet firmly planted on

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Speaker 1: the ground and I'm here in our New York studio. Brian,

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Speaker 1: you're still in l A. And we just had a conversation,

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Speaker 1: a really interesting one with former U S attorney Pre Barrara.

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Speaker 1: He was a wonderful source of information and insight about

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Speaker 1: everything that's going on with the Trump investigation. I think

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Speaker 1: it's very easy in the day to day of the

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Speaker 1: coverage to lose perspective um and to really understand what's

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Speaker 1: going on, and so I think he was terrific at

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Speaker 1: stepping back and giving us, in a sort of Joe Friday,

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Speaker 1: just the facts ma'am style, and maybe I'm dating myself

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Speaker 1: with that reference, a sense of what matters here, what

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Speaker 1: the stakes are, and really to help us understand the

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Speaker 1: Trump investigation and how it's going and really Trump investigations,

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Speaker 1: because he talked about the different jurisdictions or auspices under

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Speaker 1: which these investigations are taking. Is that that the right

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Speaker 1: legal way to say, Brian. With the Russian investigation being conducted,

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Speaker 1: of course by Robert Muller, and the investigation into Michael

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Speaker 1: Cohen's activities being investigated by the U. S. Attorney for

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Speaker 1: the Southern District of New York, which is Prett's old office,

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Speaker 1: and folks, if you're unfamiliar, being a U. S. Attorney

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Speaker 1: is essentially the top federal prosecutor in a particular location,

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Speaker 1: and the Southern District of New York is probably the

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Speaker 1: most important office in the country because it covers Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: so Wall Street is under its jurisdiction. A lot of

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Speaker 1: New York political corruption cases are under its jurisdiction, and

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Speaker 1: very relevant here, uh, the home and business of the

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Speaker 1: President of the United States are under its jurisdiction. By

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Speaker 1: the way, everyone, this is a crossover show, and that

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Speaker 1: means our conversation will be broadcast on pres terrific podcast

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Speaker 1: try to say that ten times fast, called Stay Tuned

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Speaker 1: with pret and it will be broadcasts on our terrific

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Speaker 1: podcast called Katie Curic. And we're trying to come up

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Speaker 1: with a new name, so we'll take any suggestions. Everyone,

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Speaker 1: just keep Brian's name out of it. Just I'm totally kidding.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, we're hoping that people who are listening to

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Speaker 1: Preach show may find ours worth downloading or subscribing to.

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Speaker 1: And conversely, we're hoping that you all will check out

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Speaker 1: Stay Tuned with pret because he's absolutely terrific and has

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Speaker 1: a lot of incredibly smart insights to share. And if

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Speaker 1: you're a longtime listener of our show, tell your friends,

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Speaker 1: tell your family, tell your mail carrier, tell your hairdresser.

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Speaker 1: We're not proud, just tell everyone please. Meanwhile, we had

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Speaker 1: a great conversation, as Brian said, with Prett, who gave

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Speaker 1: us really some much needed perspective, and we began by

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Speaker 1: talking to him about his short lived friendship with Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and the events leading up to his vacating the premises.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people outside New York know you as

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Speaker 1: the U S attorney in Manhattan who was fired by

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. And you've told the story a million times,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, but can you tell our listeners as well

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Speaker 1: as some people who haven't heard the first episode of

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Speaker 1: your show, what happened and why it got so much attention? Um? Well,

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Speaker 1: thanks again for having me. It's very exciting to be

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Speaker 1: here on Stay Tuned with Katie and Brian. You're looking

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Speaker 1: for a new name, we are. I got some very

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Speaker 1: twitter suggestions. I think I think you like Stay Tuned.

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Speaker 1: My lawyers will not go after you if you if

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Speaker 1: you name it Stay Tuned with Katie and Brunn. Oh wait, pretty,

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Speaker 1: did you not get the memo we're actually replacing you

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Speaker 1: on your show? This is very awkward. Actually, I thought

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Speaker 1: he had been told Katie like the worst political junkie ever.

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Speaker 1: If you're if you're starting off the interview with your

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Speaker 1: fired because you know that happened to me last year,

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Speaker 1: which was I think the question. We've come full circles,

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Speaker 1: see how I feel, abuster. Look, So, so, I was

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Speaker 1: the U S Attorney for a number of years. It

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Speaker 1: was appointed by President Obama, confirmed by the Senate, and

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Speaker 1: then it ordinarily happens when a new president comes in

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Speaker 1: particularly one of the other party. All the US attorneys,

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Speaker 1: all the ambassadors, they all know that the new president

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Speaker 1: and the administration deserves its own people. And that's totally normal.

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Speaker 1: Happens every time, and I expected that to be true

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Speaker 1: for me also in November when when Donald Trump won

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Speaker 1: and in fact I had no job security, uh that

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Speaker 1: I could have expected even if Hillary Clinton had one,

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Speaker 1: because it's a new president. But about eight days after

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Speaker 1: the election, the President elect Trump called the Senator for

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Speaker 1: whom I used to work, Chuck Schumer, and said, among

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Speaker 1: other things, do you think pre would stay in his

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Speaker 1: job and stay on for another term? And claimed to

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Speaker 1: be a big fan of mine, said I was doing

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Speaker 1: a great job. I thought about it. I had expected

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Speaker 1: to go do other things. I've been in public service

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Speaker 1: for over seventeen years at that point, so I thought

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Speaker 1: about it. And the best job I've ever had that

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Speaker 1: I will ever have. It's an independent job. We did,

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Speaker 1: you know the job a politically, we don't think about

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Speaker 1: someone being a Democrat and a Republican. We just bring

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Speaker 1: our cases independently, which is the reputation of the office.

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Speaker 1: And so then I was asked to meet with the

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Speaker 1: President elect before the formal offer, I guess would happen.

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Speaker 1: So I went to Trump Tower November. His desk with

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Speaker 1: all the magazines piled up, there's a lot of Trump paraphernalia. Well,

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Speaker 1: every magazine cover that he's been on the cover of

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Speaker 1: is on his desk, and they're probably six deep. Was

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Speaker 1: it still the case? I saw that, But I also

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Speaker 1: saw in the hallway leading to his office there's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of Trump paraphernalia, the pictures and photographs and you know,

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Speaker 1: knickknacks and all sorts of things. But before I even

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Speaker 1: got up there in the lobby, remember at the time

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Speaker 1: during transition, there were all sorts of reporters hanging out

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Speaker 1: sort of penned in behind the velvet rope um, you know,

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Speaker 1: seeing who was coming and going, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: people recognize me when I when I went by, and

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Speaker 1: some reporter while I was waiting for the elevator to come,

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Speaker 1: this he held out, you know, Mr Brara, are you

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Speaker 1: here to serve a subpoena? I wasn't at that moment um,

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Speaker 1: so I know the older takes a long time. It's

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Speaker 1: a goal plate elevator. You go upstairs. The president was running.

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Speaker 1: President elect was running a little bit late, so I

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Speaker 1: shot the breeze with Jared Kushner and Steve Bannon, who

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Speaker 1: was wearing only one shirt at the time. Uh in

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Speaker 1: his office, waited for the President elect to come in.

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Speaker 1: The president was very uh, you know, lovely. We talked

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Speaker 1: about the office. Nothing inappropriate was said. He said I

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Speaker 1: was doing a great job, he said, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you're getting a lot offers to go into private practice.

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Speaker 1: I hope you would consider staying, and I said I would.

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Speaker 1: The only odd thing that happened in the meeting was

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Speaker 1: he pushed, you know, a yellow pad of post it's

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Speaker 1: towards me and asked me for my phone number, my

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Speaker 1: phone numbers. So it was odd that the President elect

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Speaker 1: of the United States of America was asking me from

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Speaker 1: my digits, and presumably they already had them somewhere, because

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Speaker 1: that's how I came to be at the meeting in

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Speaker 1: the first place. So I didn't really understand, although Jared

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Speaker 1: and Steve didn't seem to think it was out at all,

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Speaker 1: that you know, that the next leader of the free

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Speaker 1: world was asking someone first phone numbers, didn't think anything

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Speaker 1: of it. Um I was asked to call Jeff Sessions,

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Speaker 1: the incoming Attorney general, from the elevator bank outside. Everyone

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Speaker 1: said they were excited to work with me, and so

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Speaker 1: that was nice. Jeff Sessions. I did from the elevator

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Speaker 1: bank outside the elevator bank on the I think the

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Speaker 1: floor tower. They wanted to make sure that, you know,

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Speaker 1: they had checked the box. You know, he's going to

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Speaker 1: be the Attorney general. I'm gonna be the US attorney

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Speaker 1: who puatively works for the Attorney General. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to make sure that he was looped in. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just the you know, the president and his staff

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Speaker 1: deciding on their own. It was a sort of a

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Speaker 1: consultation with the cabinet official. Who's the most relevant one

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Speaker 1: for my purposes and also the right thing to do.

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Speaker 1: So he said, yeah, nothing if not good for him,

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Speaker 1: Uh suggestions. Who I knew a little bit when I

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Speaker 1: used to work for Senator Schumer. He was the ranking

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Speaker 1: member on the subcommittee for which I worked, so I

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Speaker 1: knew him a little bit. He said, looking forward to

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Speaker 1: working with you. Then I went downstairs and I had

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Speaker 1: I had asked President elect Trump if they were going

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Speaker 1: to be making an announcement, and he said, well, was

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Speaker 1: there press when you came in, I said, yes, there was.

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Speaker 1: Well did they recognize you? And I said yes they did.

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell them the subpoena things I thought he

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Speaker 1: might appreciate. How funny would that be? Now it's a

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Speaker 1: little funnier and more relevant now. But um, he said,

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Speaker 1: why don't you go back out and just tell the

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Speaker 1: press that I've asked you to stay? I think you're

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Speaker 1: pick and I've asked you to stay. And so I did.

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Speaker 1: And that was the last meeting I had with the

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Speaker 1: president elect. But then, Um, as I've said publicly before,

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Speaker 1: he would call me from time to time, which is

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Speaker 1: an odd thing for a sitting president elect to be calling,

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Speaker 1: even though we had no prior relationship. Um. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't you know, a matter of business with the Justice Department.

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Speaker 1: He called me in December. Then he called me again

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Speaker 1: two days before the inauguration. What did he call you about?

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Speaker 1: Seemingly just to chat and make nice. It was just

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Speaker 1: small talk, and it seemed odd to me at the time.

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Speaker 1: Now we know he does that from time to time.

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Speaker 1: He cultivates people. We know from Jim Comey's testimony that

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Speaker 1: from time to time the president would call him. Um,

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Speaker 1: He never asked me to do anything inappropriate and never

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Speaker 1: has asked me to do anything untoward. But it's all

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Speaker 1: odd for someone who has, you know, about to have

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Speaker 1: the biggest job in the world to have time to call,

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Speaker 1: you know, the local U. S attorney in Manhattan, who

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Speaker 1: I will note, has technical jurisdiction over, among other things,

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Speaker 1: that person's businesses, that person's residence, that person's associates. Were

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Speaker 1: you conducting any investigations at the time into anything Trump related.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna answer that broad question, but i will

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Speaker 1: say that at the time, publicly, there were calls from

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Speaker 1: my office to look at all sorts of things, including

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Speaker 1: the monuments clause that people have heard things about. So

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Speaker 1: fast forward to the time. So when I got those

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Speaker 1: calls from the President elect, I let the head of

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Speaker 1: transition know, and I made sure that people in my

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Speaker 1: staff knew, and we decided it was okay to return

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Speaker 1: the calls because he was not yet the president of

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Speaker 1: the United States and there was no there was no

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Speaker 1: actual Attorney general at the time. He didn't say anything

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Speaker 1: that he was not supposed to say, but it was

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Speaker 1: just it was just a weird Well, I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: when you say small talk like that mean, do you

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Speaker 1: play golf? I mean? What was that? When he called

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Speaker 1: me before the inauguration a day or two before the inauguration,

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Speaker 1: probably the biggest day of his life in some way, like,

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Speaker 1: don't you have a speech to write? I asked him

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Speaker 1: about this speech? I said, I said, sir, how's the

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Speaker 1: speech coming? And he said, which you may find interesting,

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Speaker 1: it's going really well. I'm writing it all myself, and

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Speaker 1: it's about it's about hope, neither of which things I

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Speaker 1: believe to be true. Carnage. Maybe maybe the Wordsmith's got

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Speaker 1: to him between like the Wednesday and the Friday. I

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Speaker 1: think Steve Bannon got to him. He may he may have.

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Speaker 1: He asked me if I was doing all right. He

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Speaker 1: told me some stories about He told me how lots

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Speaker 1: of people are coming to see him. He was very

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Speaker 1: impressed that, you know, governors all around the country had

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Speaker 1: their hands out and wanted government handouts. It was basically

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Speaker 1: like he was trying to be your buddy. Am I right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: My My view is now based on other things that happened,

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Speaker 1: on calls he made to Jim Comey, and the way

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Speaker 1: he conducts himself and the way he sort of violence,

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Speaker 1: the protocols and norms of the Justice Department Independent Investigation

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Speaker 1: that in the way he conducted his business previously, that

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Speaker 1: he doesn't see walls between law enforcement and politics, and

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Speaker 1: that it's good for him to cultivate a relationship and

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Speaker 1: be buddies with people if at such time you want

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Speaker 1: a favor or and again there's this speculation on my part,

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Speaker 1: but it's quite educated speculation. If it's sometime you need

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Speaker 1: someone to do you a favor, or to lay off somebody,

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Speaker 1: or to show loyalty, it's better to have had a

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Speaker 1: friendly relationship with that person. We'll never know, because a

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Speaker 1: couple of months into the presidency, Donald Trump called me again.

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Speaker 1: Now he's a sitting president, and now it seems highly

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Speaker 1: inappropriate that it wasn't coming through the channel of the

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Speaker 1: Attorney General or the deputy Attorney General. There's no warning

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Speaker 1: about it. I didn't know what the call was about. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are protocols that are very sort of serious that

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Speaker 1: the White House has put out because of prior scandals,

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Speaker 1: that make it clear that nobody is supposed to talk

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Speaker 1: to a law enforcement official at a certain level about

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Speaker 1: an enforcement Actionally, I didn't know if he was gonna

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Speaker 1: be calling me about enforcement action. But I thought it

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Speaker 1: was odd, uh, And I kept thinking about and I

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Speaker 1: called my deputy into discuss whether or not I should

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Speaker 1: return the coin that seems bizarre to people. Your boss

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Speaker 1: calls you, you call him back. You know, the president

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Speaker 1: really isn't your boss. If you were a local United

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Speaker 1: States attorney, you serve the people, You serve your oath,

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Speaker 1: you serve the Constitution. In some measures, you serve the

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Speaker 1: Attorney General. But we in the in the what we

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Speaker 1: have called over time, the Sovereign District of New York,

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Speaker 1: sometimes don't even think we serve of the Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't know what the nature of the call

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Speaker 1: was going to be. And one of the things we

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Speaker 1: thought about was, well, how's this going to work if

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Speaker 1: he says something inappropriate and cross some line, which was possible,

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Speaker 1: and now we know, you know, after the fact, that

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Speaker 1: he's done things like that. I believe, who's gonna believe

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Speaker 1: my side of the throat? We actually contemplated, and this

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Speaker 1: is interesting in later we had a discussion about whether

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Speaker 1: or not we should tape the president of the United States.

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Speaker 1: We decided against that because we, unlike Michael Cohen, his

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Speaker 1: own lawyer. I thought it was kind of uncool to

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Speaker 1: take the president of the United States. Then we thought

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Speaker 1: about having a witness to the call. But it just

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Speaker 1: shows you, even early on, before a lot of the

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Speaker 1: new information has come out, that there were lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of people, including the president's own lawyer, who believed

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Speaker 1: that when you have a conversation with Donald Trump, you

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Speaker 1: want to have proof of what the conversation was because

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Speaker 1: there might be a dispute about the content of it later.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing I kept thinking about was something

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Speaker 1: that Donald Trump said over and over and over again

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Speaker 1: during the campaign. He kept casting aspersions on Loretta Lynch

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Speaker 1: for having that now famous meeting at the tarmac with

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Speaker 1: former President Bill Clinton, whose wife Hilly Clinton, was under investigation.

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Speaker 1: And that was just a nice chit chat, the participants claim.

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Speaker 1: And I believe that to be true because I trust

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Speaker 1: Luretta Lynch. I think she's an honorable person who wouldn't

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Speaker 1: violate her oath. But Donald Trump himself got to say,

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again, what do you think

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Speaker 1: they were talking about. I'm sure they were talking about

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Speaker 1: the case. And I'm thinking to myself, even if the

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Speaker 1: president of United States sought to have an innocent conversation

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Speaker 1: with me, which I don't know how he has time

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Speaker 1: to have a conversation with me given everything else going

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Speaker 1: on in the world. Who's going to believe that. If

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Speaker 1: later it looks like we chose not to investigate something,

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Speaker 1: or we were investigating something and chose not to bring

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Speaker 1: a charge against an associate, it has all the makings

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Speaker 1: of an accusation that we had some side deal. I

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Speaker 1: went to Trump Tower, I kissed the ring uh. He

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Speaker 1: he asked me to stay. I agreed to stay. There

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Speaker 1: was some deal of of friendship or loyalty, and no

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Speaker 1: good could come of returning the call. So I called

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Speaker 1: actually Jeff Sessions, chiefest staff, and said I got this

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Speaker 1: phone call, and he agreed with me that I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: return the call. Knowing that, you know, knowing what we

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Speaker 1: know about the President's personality, he would be what's the

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Speaker 1: technical term, piste off. So I called the secretary at

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Speaker 1: the White House back on March nine, two thou and

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Speaker 1: seventeen as that I consulted with the Justice Department for

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Speaker 1: a variety of reasons. I don't think it's appropriate for

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Speaker 1: me to have a conversation directly with the President, no offense,

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Speaker 1: um and and twenty hours later I was asking my resignation. Now,

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Speaker 1: I cannot prove that those things are connected, and everyone

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Speaker 1: else who was a holdover was also asked to resign.

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Speaker 1: But it seems odd to me that those things would

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Speaker 1: be so closely connected in time unless they were at

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Speaker 1: least a little bit related. So pretty you won't answer

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Speaker 1: the question about whether there was any Trump related investigation.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna ask me something anyway, aren't you. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna ask you saying a little bit connected to that,

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Speaker 1: which is is there any evidence of Trump similarly reaching

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Speaker 1: out to any other U. S. Attorney around the country. No,

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Speaker 1: there's not. I mean I presumably, uh, hypothetically it could

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Speaker 1: have happened. And the other thing to be aware of

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Speaker 1: he then the president. My understanding is from the reporting

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Speaker 1: personally interviewed certain um, you know, appointments to U. S. Attorney,

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Speaker 1: including the one in New York, the one in Washington,

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Speaker 1: D C. And I think one in Florida, all who incidentally,

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Speaker 1: out of the nineties, three offices have technical jurisdiction over

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Speaker 1: the person and property of the President and his associates.

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Speaker 1: So you think he would have learned from that interaction,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like he didn't. Again, which is not

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Speaker 1: to say that any one did anything wrong or inappropriate,

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Speaker 1: but there is there is a you know, definitely an

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Speaker 1: m O on the part of this president to develop

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Speaker 1: relationships with people, whether they're in law enforcement or otherwise,

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Speaker 1: when the norm has always been different. And and have

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Speaker 1: you run into anybody since have you been able to

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Speaker 1: ascertain if in fact those things might have been connected

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Speaker 1: that you weren't going to play ball? And so I've

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Speaker 1: not I've not made any accusation along those lines, but

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Speaker 1: I've lived long enough to know you have to wait

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Speaker 1: and see what the historical record is. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: when when I was asked to resign, I didn't. And

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Speaker 1: initially I wasn't trying to be a prima donna. I

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Speaker 1: just was confused because I was the only person from

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Speaker 1: the prior administration who had had a personal meeting with

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Speaker 1: the president, shook his hand and was asked to stay. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, given the level of incompetence that this administration

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Speaker 1: has often shown, I think that's not even not even

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Speaker 1: a partisan point, It's just a fact. When they rolled

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Speaker 1: out the travel band, They rolled out all sorts of

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Speaker 1: other things. Maybe it didn't occur to them. Well, some

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Speaker 1: people stand in a different position. So I was just

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Speaker 1: trying to get the answer. How did they let you

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Speaker 1: know that you're the acting deputy general? Danna bent A

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Speaker 1: called me a two thirty on on the afternoon of

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Speaker 1: March tenth, it was of Friday, and asked me to

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Speaker 1: my letter of resonation. I said to him again, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't trying to be difficult because I served at the

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Speaker 1: pleasure of the president. Are you sure it applies to me?

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Speaker 1: Because you know I had that thing at the Trump Tower.

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Speaker 1: Bannon was there. President he asked me to stay. So

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Speaker 1: this is obviously didn't apply to everyone, because two of

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Speaker 1: the sitting US attorneys at the time, one was Rod Rosenstein,

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Speaker 1: obviously he wasn't being asked to resign, didn't want him

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Speaker 1: to go, and the others Danna bent To himself. Ah,

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Speaker 1: So it was unclear to me if they meant for

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Speaker 1: me to be asked to let go, to be like

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Speaker 1: O or not. And then again, because I lived a

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Speaker 1: long time, I thought it just needed to be clear

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Speaker 1: that this was the wish of the president. If it was,

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Speaker 1: and it took twenty four hours to learn that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I walked out into into the open air as a

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Speaker 1: free civilian man, but I didn't want it to be

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Speaker 1: you know, suggested if in fact there was some nefarious

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Speaker 1: thing going on. I'm not saying their watch, but if

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Speaker 1: in fact there was something nefarious going on, and people

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Speaker 1: are trying to avoid an investigation of some sort, that

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Speaker 1: it should just be clear that this was the wish

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Speaker 1: of the president and not some functionary who was in

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Speaker 1: an acting capacity at the Justice Department. Why was that

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Speaker 1: important because so later on if you have to find

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Speaker 1: out why people did what they did, people don't have

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Speaker 1: plausible deniability. If I if I had never had the meeting, again,

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Speaker 1: as I said, the outset and people conflate these things,

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Speaker 1: I had no expectation of staying. There's actually not even

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Speaker 1: a tradition of the next president keeping someone before. Now

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Speaker 1: sometimes it happens. Rod Rosenstein served under George W. Bush

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Speaker 1: and then was was kept on by Barack Obama and

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Speaker 1: kept on again by Nald Trump. So there are exceptions

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Speaker 1: that Patrick Fitzgerald was appointed by one president and kept

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Speaker 1: on by the following president. So it's a small minority

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Speaker 1: of people I didn't expect to be in that position,

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Speaker 1: but once someone asks you to stay in with a

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Speaker 1: lot of fanfare, you know, I was asked to stand

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Speaker 1: for another term before he appointed in a pretty public way,

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Speaker 1: very public way. And then when you see other things

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Speaker 1: that happened, and you see you begin to see the

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Speaker 1: ways in which the president thinks about law enforcement and

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Speaker 1: thinks about personal loyalty, and thinks about how you interfere

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Speaker 1: with things. You know, issues pardons without going through the process,

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Speaker 1: asks Jeff Sessions, as we found out later, and I

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Speaker 1: believe this, you know, can you can the department do

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Speaker 1: something to back off on jour Pyle asked Jim call

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Speaker 1: me and I believe this also, can you back off

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Speaker 1: on Michael Flynn? These are the kinds of conversations that

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Speaker 1: the president thinks are appropriate that that puts into a

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Speaker 1: different light the nature of the cause he was making

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Speaker 1: to me, And as somebody who's been in the legal

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Speaker 1: system for so long, why is that such a dangerous

429
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: m o pre Because because the law is the law,

430
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 1: and it's supposed to be independently enforced, and no one

431
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: gets special privileges, that law applies equally to everybody, even

432
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: though we have seen examples of this. These are I

433
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: think transgressions of norms and very important norms in this country.

434
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: Unlike a Banana Republic, elected leaders don't get to decide

435
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: because they have enemies or they have friends, Um who

436
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: gets prosecuted who doesn't based on their level of friendship

437
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 1: with you or based on their level of adversari, noess

438
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: towards you. That's how it's supposed to be. And and

439
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: scale look at the scandals have been avoided because they

440
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: have these protocols in place. That the reason you have

441
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: these guidelines that make clear that a political official in

442
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: the White House is not supposed to call a you know,

443
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: a lower level Department of Justice official to say, hey,

444
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: what's going on without investigation of my former business colleague?

445
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: Or hey, can you take a look at investigating uh,

446
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: you know this political adversary I had. That's not That's

447
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: not a kind of country I think that we're supposed

448
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: to live in. I'm just curious that Brian's gonna have

449
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 1: a million questions that Brian, just because there's an opening here,

450
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: does it concern you? Does the nomination of Brett Avanaugh

451
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 1: concern you? For that reason that he seems to have

452
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: a particular view about the power of the presidency. So

453
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: I think there's reason to be concerned that Brett Kavanaugh

454
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: has a view a little bit conveniently adopted after he

455
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: had a different view as a policy matter. As people

456
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: may know, Brett Kavanaugh, one of the first things he

457
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: did as a as a lawyer was working on the

458
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: Star investigation of a sitting president and appears to have

459
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: had a quite different view of what you can subject

460
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,719
Speaker 1: to sitting president too. And later he had he has

461
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: had a slightly different view, had an epiphany somehow you look,

462
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: it can be working in the White House. I mean,

463
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: this was not a crazy story that that experiencing the

464
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: incoming that you see actually working inside the White House,

465
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 1: which he did under the George W. Bush administration. He

466
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 1: changed his mind and he acknowledged that it was a

467
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: you know, different position. It looks I credit his you

468
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: know statement that he changed his mind more than I

469
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: credit what I've seen Rudy Giuliani do massold Rudy Giuliani

470
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: the I'm TV recently saying that a president does not

471
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: have to obey a subpoena for testimony, when at the

472
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: same time I'm forgetting who it was on cable television

473
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: showing him a video of himself saying the exact opposite.

474
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: And rather than say I had a change of heart

475
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: or I changed my mind, he said I never said

476
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: those things. So Grigiliani, uniquely in public life and American law,

477
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: can have two opposite ideas in his head at the

478
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: same time and claim them both to be correct. Well,

479
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: the difference is one president's a Democrat and the others

480
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: a Republican. And do you think that Brett Kavanaugh's nomination

481
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: was more appealing because of his change of heart? I'm

482
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,239
Speaker 1: prepared to believe that, Like what I think is clear. Uh, No,

483
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: matter what you think about the president is that he

484
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: doesn't do a lot of homework. Um, I doubt, in

485
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: fact not. I wouldn't would bet everything I have that

486
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: he didn't read a number of opinions by brit have

487
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: and I'd be shocked if you read even one. I'd

488
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: be shocked if you read the briefing materials that were

489
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: put together and we prepared senators for confirmation hearings and

490
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: to figure out what our views would be on particular

491
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: people who might be nominated. Those briefing materials go to many, many,

492
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: many many, many pages and hundreds of pages. So I'm

493
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: prepared to believe that Donald Trump you took advice from,

494
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: as everyone knows, um the Federal Society and the Heritage

495
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: Foundation to come up with his list of first twenty

496
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: and I think then Brett Caabnot was added later to

497
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: that list people who the conservative community of a particular

498
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: stripe I thought were good and people on the conservative

499
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: side of politics would support. And then in getting briefed

500
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: orally casually, you know, some of the bullet points that

501
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: must have been suggested to the president would have included

502
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: this idea that Brett Kavanaugh has been putting forward that

503
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: the president can do, you know, exercise his power in

504
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: a very broad way. And I'm sure that was a

505
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: little bit music to his ears. I don't know if

506
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: that was the the basis. I think other presidents who

507
00:25:58,359 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: are not in the legal jeopardy that the President Trump

508
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: is in might have also appointed Brett Kavin. I think

509
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: of Jeb bushould become the president, Brett Kavina would have

510
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: been at the absolute top of the list. But I

511
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if it was a little bit of

512
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: icing on the cake. What is striking that In his

513
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: first public statement as President Trump's nominee for the Supreme Court,

514
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh said no president has conducted a more thorough

515
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 1: or comprehensive process to pick a nominee than President Trump has,

516
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: which is kind of an extraordinary states that it's one

517
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: of the most bizarre and demonstrably false statements ever made,

518
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: which is saying a lot from how do you know

519
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: it's follow how do you know it's demonstrably false? Because

520
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: the historical record shows that multiple presidents, not sometimes presidents

521
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: don't consult that much, the multiple multiple presidents have consulted

522
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: extensively with the other party. There are books on how

523
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton and you might not like his nominees if

524
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: you're a conservative, how he reached out across the aisle,

525
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: talked to Orange Hatch and other folks. Um who I

526
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: think during one of these periods was high ranking or

527
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: the chair of the leader of the Republicans and the

528
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee to vet the possibility of people he would

529
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: be nominating. On the other hand, the documentary evidence and

530
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: the testimonial evidence, if you interview people on what Donald

531
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: Trump did was merely some people say, outsourced the decision

532
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: of who to put on the list, to the Heritage Foundation,

533
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: UM and to the Federal Society, there was no one

534
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: has come forward with any plausible suggestion of any sort

535
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: by anyone the president. Donald Trump consulted with any member

536
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: of the other party, and other presidents have, you know,

537
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: kept this sort of internal as well. But to say

538
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: that he consulted more widely than anyone else, ever, I

539
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: think it's demonstrably untrue. It's time to take a quick break.

540
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: When we're back with pre Perar, we're going to dig

541
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: into much more from whether Michael Cohen has flipped to

542
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: what advice pret would give to Donald Trump if he

543
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: were his lawyer? And now back to our conversation with

544
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: pre Berr. How do you assess the extent to which

545
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: President Trump is in legal jeopardy? If here were your

546
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: client as a lawyer, how would you describe the overall

547
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: magnitude of this problem to him? But those are those

548
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: are different questions. How do you assess? I think it's

549
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: difficult to us as you just know what's in the

550
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: public record. You know that Bob Mueller and his team

551
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: are full of super professional, smart heads down kinds of

552
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: lawyers who will bring a case if there's a case

553
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: to be brought, won't bring one if there's not one

554
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: to be brought. And when you're talking about legal jeopardy

555
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: and the way normal people understand it, whether or not

556
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: someone is subject to being arrested, I think the president

557
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: is not in any legal jeopardy really, because I believe

558
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: that that especially Counsel Mueller will take the view that

559
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: the Office of Legal Counsel to Justice Department has taken

560
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: for a long time now. Not everyone agrees with it,

561
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: but it's the prevailing view that a sitting pret no

562
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,479
Speaker 1: with not just Brett Kavana's view that a sitting president

563
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: cannot be indicted. So in that regard, he doesn't have

564
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of imminent legal jeopardy in the

565
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: way that some lawyers have to counsel with their clients

566
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: to have a bag packed and a toothbrush, you know,

567
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: in their overnight bag, and take care of their affairs,

568
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: take care of their affairs. You know, some some players

569
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: tell their clients when they think they're about to be arrested,

570
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: to avoid you know, being arrested in front of their

571
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: family and children. At six o'clock in the morning, they

572
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: check into a hotel, you know, under an alias so

573
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: that when the FBI finally comes, you know that the defendant,

574
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: the target can surrender on his own terms later to

575
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: law enforcement. So I don't think the president is any

576
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: is in any jeopardy like that. On the other hand,

577
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: there are people who around him who are and I

578
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: think we're gonna see additional arrests, including my presumption is

579
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: one of those people being his former personal lawyer Michael Cohen.

580
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: So it's impossible to gauge separate apart from his inability

581
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: to be indicted, how were he not the president? How

582
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: much evidence is there that he engaged in some kind

583
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: of conspiracy if there was knowledge on his part in

584
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: what people say cocluding, But coluding is not really a crime,

585
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: but conspiring with a foreign power to interfere with the election,

586
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: or violent campaign finance laws, or engage in obstruction. So

587
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: the jeopardy he's in is what Congress will do. Part

588
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: of that depends on what the nature of Congress is

589
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: part of Part of that depends on what happens with

590
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: the Democrats in the fall. It also depends on what

591
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: the priorities of the Democrats and others are. Not everyone

592
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: is in favor of taking a legal action against the president.

593
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: Now that the second party of question is what I

594
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 1: would do or say if I were representing the president

595
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: who had this level of legal jeopardy as to keep

596
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: my mouth shut, I would be more a loot, more

597
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: like Emmett Flood, who nobody knows, although he's representing the

598
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: president of the United States as well. We just see

599
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: the pr offensive that's not particularly helpful to the president

600
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: by Rudy Giuliani on TV, and before that we saw

601
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: the same from John Dowd and from Jay Seculo. Generally speaking,

602
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: when your client, even if it's a higher file person

603
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: like a politician or a celebrity or a billionaire, you

604
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: keep your mouth shut and you do your work behind

605
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: the scenes. Like the principal thing that you want to

606
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: do is explain in a in a sober minded, respectful,

607
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: rigorous way to the prosecutors who potentially are going to

608
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: charge your client is why they have it wrong, And

609
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: not blast them in public, and not proclaim facts about

610
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: your client's knowledge that turned out to be untrue a

611
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: short time thereafter. Not to make a proclamation about a

612
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: potential witness against your client. In this case, Michael Cohen

613
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: one day saying he's an honest and honorable man, the

614
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: next day saying he's a pathological liar and his lied

615
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: his whole life. And part of the reason you don't

616
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: do that is you look First of all, you look

617
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: like a fool. Second of all, you don't serve your

618
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: client well. And in particularly the reason you don't serve

619
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: your client well is you don't have credibility. This discussion

620
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: about whether or not the president is going to sit

621
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: down with a special counsel and on what terms. Those

622
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: are human beings who are dealing with each other, you know,

623
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani or at Flood or whoever else is sitting down,

624
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: not with robots, are seeing that with other people, and

625
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 1: they're making representations about what the president you know, will

626
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: agree to or not agree to, or they're making representations

627
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: about what the law is and why the Special Council

628
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: has it wrong, barking up the wrong tree. A lot

629
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: of those arguments, as they are in life, generally, are

630
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: persuasive or not persuasive if the person making them has

631
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: personal credibility. And when Rudy and others go out there

632
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: and say idiotic things that are proven false and flip

633
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: flop day to day when a person like that, and

634
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: we've had people like that are not as famous as

635
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: Rudy Juliani. When a person like that does that in

636
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: public and then comes into my office when I was

637
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: the US Attorney and tries to make an argument to me,

638
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: I don't credit it, And that's a failure of lawyering

639
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: on the part of those guys. But do you think

640
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: they're doing that for the for public consumption? There are

641
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: two different audiences they're appealing to. And do you think

642
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: there is a method to their madness that that people

643
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: are so confused at this point they can't make head

644
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: nor tails of anything, right. I'm always careful not to

645
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: a tribute too much cleverness and strategic thinking on the

646
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: part of people who look like they're saying silly, self

647
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: contradictory things. It's possible, and that's obviously how folks are

648
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: going to spend it. But I don't know anyone, even

649
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: supporters of the president, who actually think that the constantly

650
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: changing statements of Prudi Giuliani are helpful. In fact, I

651
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: think I saw in the last couple of days a

652
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: former lawyer to the president in other matters. I think

653
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: the former divorced lawyer, who it seems remains loyal towards

654
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: the president and infection about the president, said that ry

655
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: Giliani's representation is a disaster. That said, maybe what Juliani

656
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: is doing is acclimating the public to the idea of collusion,

657
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: so that if and when Mueller proves it, you know,

658
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: the reaction is, oh, of course, we knew there was collusion,

659
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 1: just like when Ken Starr proves that Bill Clinton had

660
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: the affair with Monica Lewinsky's moving the gold post, right,

661
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: So people will be less shocked and more in nord

662
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: to this whole notion. Look, it's possible, anything as possible.

663
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: But I do think though, that really smart people like

664
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: you guys and other folks in the public who are

665
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: commentators because they're smart and rigorous, like to impose, you know,

666
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: that kind of strategic thinking on the part of people

667
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: who may just be incompetent. Can we ask you about

668
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: Michael Cohen's case, because your old office is investigating. I

669
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: have no personal knowledge of everything relating to that case.

670
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: But what you've read, what you've seen in the public,

671
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: so clearly he's flipped, right. I wouldn't say clearly, U,

672
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: because remember, two things have to be necessary. Right. First,

673
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: the guy who is in trouble in this case, Michael Cohen,

674
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: has to make the decision that he wants to cooperate

675
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: with the government, and that seems fairly clear, as your

676
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: question and your smile indicates to me. But a second

677
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: thing also has to be true. The government has to

678
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: want your cooperation. The government has to believe the prosecutors

679
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 1: have to believe that this potential target it in this case,

680
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: Michael Cohen has substantial assistance to offer. Now everyone has

681
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: been assuming I think it's not a terrible assumption that

682
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: Michael Cohen knows what a lot of the bodies are buried,

683
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: can cooperate with respect to a lot of folks, perhaps

684
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: even the President of the United States, and then he

685
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: has stuff to give. But then there's another sort of

686
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: third issue as well. Let's say the first two conditions

687
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 1: are met. Guys in trouble. Guy wants to co operate

688
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: with the government, and government wants him. Government wants him,

689
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: government thinks that person has information of criminality, and the

690
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: party of other folks. The government also has to believe

691
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: that the witness is going to be truthful going forward,

692
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: also has to believe that the witness is going to

693
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: be effective. I'm not saying this is true of Michael Cohen,

694
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: but he's got a lot of baggage. Yeah. I think

695
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 1: Giuliani's second assessment of Michael Cohen is the more correct one,

696
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 1: that he's lined his whole life and presumably on behalf

697
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, that the first assessment of his being

698
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: honorable and honest was not true. You know, prosecutors put

699
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: on people who have told lies before and who have

700
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: killed people and have committed fraud. We put them on

701
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: the stand to prosecute other people, but you have to

702
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: go through a real serious assessment of how that's going

703
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: to look, of whether or not they really turned the page,

704
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: whether it's being fully honest with you. There are people

705
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: who I'm not saying this is true of Michael Colin,

706
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: but just remember that these other things. His mere willingness

707
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: to flip against somebody, including maybe his former client, is

708
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: not necessarily sufficient. And it is true that some cases

709
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: never get made because the witness is so flawed and

710
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: so unable to come to terms with the whole truth

711
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: that they're not usable. Do these tape conversations change any

712
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: of that. It would be one thing if there were

713
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: no tapes. Right if you list the tapes, look so

714
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: the last, the one tape that's been released looks like

715
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: it was suddenly in abruptly shut off. And you know,

716
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: you do have to worry him. Had people who claimed

717
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 1: that things were said, but they selectively tape. Um, all

718
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: these things I'm about to say are hypothetical. We don't

719
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: know if Michael Cohen, for example, has three other tapes

720
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: in which he looks terrible and he destroyed them. Let's

721
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: say there's an email about that. Um, you know, let's

722
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: say there are times when he was on tape, you know,

723
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: spin a false story, so he would have something that

724
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: looked like it was credible and tape recorded, but was

725
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: really not true. That would then cast into doubt things

726
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: on other tapes where he was telling the truth. I

727
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: just don't know the extent of this. And I will

728
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: tell you also that prosecutors all the time put on

729
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: unsavory witnesses on the stand because that's the nature of it. Right,

730
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: if you're a bad guy and you committy crimes with

731
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: the mob, you're going to have the information about other

732
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: guys in the mob. But there is a meter of

733
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: unsavory nous that we look at, and the idea that

734
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: a guy was recording his own client does not sit

735
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: well with prosecutors who are by definition lawyers as well.

736
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: And it may be okay, but you know, I think

737
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: people are gonna have to think long and hard but

738
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: how they're going to use a person like that. And

739
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: by the way, on top of all that, the other

740
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: thing prosecutors don't like this is a guy who has

741
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: another lawyer, Landie Davis, who's trying to one up Rudy Giuliani.

742
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: Prosecutors don't want people to come into their office. We're

743
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: gonna be witnesses and then worried that the next day

744
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: they're gonna go right on television, whether the lawyers gonna

745
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: go right on television and say, here's what the prosecutors

746
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: are thinking about, here's what I got asked, here's what

747
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: my guy is gonna do. We hate that. It's terrible,

748
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: it's awful. So they're all sorts of um, you know,

749
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: thorny issues when you're dealing with what it seems like

750
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: a somewhat not controllable witness like Michael Cohen, who also

751
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: looks like he's lied a lot. And I know you

752
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: can't get inside their heads. But what do you think

753
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani and Lannie Davis are thinking when they say

754
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: yes to do all these TV shows. That's a great

755
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: it's a great question. Look, each of them has sort

756
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: of the the you know, the big mouth lawyer who's

757
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: going on television. Maybe it's a you know, it's a

758
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: split strategy. But each of them also has a very

759
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: well respected, quiet, behind the scenes lawyer. In Michael Cohen's case,

760
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: it's Guy Petrolo, who I worked for in private practice

761
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: and who worked for me as the chief of my

762
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: criminal division when I first became the OS attorney. He's

763
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: as solid and competent and as ethical as they come.

764
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: And so maybe it's the decision that some high profile

765
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: uh you know, subjects and targets make. It's like, you

766
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: know what, I am my legal strategy, and I got

767
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: my brainiac nerd lawyer, uh Emmett Flood, Guy Petrilla to

768
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: do that, who have great credibility with the special counsel,

769
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: and they do that negotiating and then I have my

770
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: blow hard guy, and my blow hard guy goes out

771
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: on television MUCKs things up, look strong and you know

772
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: sates the President's need to have someone go on TV

773
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: defend him, and I guess that's totally possible. It's not

774
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: the way, It's not the way I would do it

775
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: or you guys would do it, but maybe that's the

776
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: way it's done these days. I have one more question

777
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: about Michael Cohen, and we can take it out if

778
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: it's super stupid, but he's being investigated for I mean,

779
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: is Michael Cohen being investigated for the collusion stuff, for

780
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: the Stormy Daniel stuff or is there overlap? There's a

781
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: stupid question all I think it's a smart question, And

782
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: again I don't know. But the following things we know

783
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: to be true. One is that Bob Mueller has an

784
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: investigation that's focused on Russian interfering, meddling attack on our election,

785
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: and then related to that, whether or not anyone on

786
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: the Trump campaign UH knowingly help them write what people

787
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: refer to informally as collusion. And third, whether or not

788
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: there's been any obstruction and that so we know that

789
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: to be true. The second thing we know to be

790
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: true is that rather than retain whatever investigation or whatever

791
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: bad things the mother folks found about Michael Cohen, they decided,

792
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: in combination with Rod Rosenstein to separate that part out

793
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: and give it to my old office, the Southern District,

794
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: New York, which suggests that the things and the lawyers

795
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: have made this point in a smart point and better

796
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: for the president, which makes it appear that the things

797
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: that are being looked at on the part of Michael

798
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: Cohen by the Southern District are broader scope, separate from

799
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: the president and have nothing to do with Russia. Now.

800
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,959
Speaker 1: The way the way, so that appears to be true

801
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: on the surface, but the way the world works otherwise is,

802
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, there are humans who have multiple things going

803
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 1: on in their head, and so may be true when

804
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: this happens all the time that you take a look

805
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: at one cooperating witness and then they flip. They don't

806
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: just flip as to the you know, the taxi medallion issue,

807
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: which is reportedly something that people are looking at, or

808
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, a particularly uh, you know, compartmentalized money laundering

809
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 1: issue or some other fraud. You say to that person,

810
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: what other bad things have you done? What other things

811
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: do you know? And my presumption is if they end

812
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: up flipping Michael Cohen and they find evidence of a crime,

813
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: that they're going to ask him to plead guilty to

814
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: with respect to his own business dealings, he will also

815
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: be asked the question, we'll tell us about Donald Trump,

816
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: tell us about the Trump organization, tell us about these

817
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: payments to these women, whether or not they were related

818
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: to the election, and that was the subject of this

819
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: phone call. And if he has information about that stuff

820
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: or dealings with the Russians, then that information is almost

821
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: certainly going to be shared with Bob Mueller. So it's

822
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: not completely compartmentalized, because the information in this human's head

823
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 1: and Michael Cohen's head is not compartmentalized that way. So

824
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: does Bob Mueller's team have access to all the material

825
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: that was what would you say that was seized from

826
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: Michael Cohen's office. So my guess is, I don't know

827
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: what arrangement they've worked out, because you have competing jurisdictions

828
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: all the time. My guess is that in assigning this

829
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: portion of the case of the Southern District, it was

830
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: made clear that if appropriate and as necessary, we need

831
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: access to information to do our own job, then you

832
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: will share that with us, and you will keep us

833
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: in the loop in pushing that part of the case

834
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: over to the Southern District. Do you think Muller is

835
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: in any way preparing for the day that he's fired,

836
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: or at least creating a contingency plan if Rosenstein is

837
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: impeached or fired. Um, if he gets pushed out or

838
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: neutered in some way, is he trying to create a

839
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: kind of a living will for his investigations. I haven't

840
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: heard it put that way. Let's go away putting it.

841
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's his primary considered. Ryan went

842
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: to law school, strated lawyer here, met too. Look at

843
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: us doing podcasts now, Live in the Dream, Live in

844
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: the Dream, you're not even in the studious managed to

845
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: mailing it in from somewhere. Um. Look, I don't know

846
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: that that's the primary motivation for why he's doing what

847
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: he's doing. I think I think Mueller's primary motivation is

848
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: to follow the facts and see what the truth is

849
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: related to. That is to make sure as much as

850
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: possible and consistent with his oath UM, that his investigation

851
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: looks like it's coloring within the lines and staying within

852
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: the lanes, and doesn't look like it's getting too far afield,

853
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: so it has maximum legitimacy and credibility and so if

854
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: they found something that seemed, you know, a little bit

855
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: out of left field with Michael Cohen, I think it's

856
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: more likely they were just trying to show when when

857
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: later eyes are going to be looking at all this

858
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: in hindsight, that they didn't agglomerate to themselves every possible

859
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: crazy thing that anyone associate with Trump has ever done

860
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: and sent it to the Southern District. It's probably nice, um,

861
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, benefit on the side for there to be

862
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: multiple investigations going on in different places. So it's a

863
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: sort of an incidental living Will you know that that

864
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: case against the twelve military intelligence officials in Russia, the

865
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: g r U, that's no longer with Mueller principally either.

866
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: That was transferred to the National Security Division. So it

867
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: is true what you're pointing out. I think it's a

868
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: smart observation that things that have begun in the Mueller

869
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: you know, um crucible, some of them are being parceled

870
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: out to other places. It just makes it a lot

871
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: harder to unring the bell. It's so gratifying to hear

872
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: that there are so many interesting cases involving the president

873
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: that can go on simultaneously. Well, when you make it

874
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: a habit when you make it a habit of surrounding

875
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: yourself with shady people who you who you know boastfully

876
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: referred to as your fixer Um and boastfully you know,

877
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: referred to as kings of dirty tricks with ether At,

878
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: Roger Stone or Paul Manafort or Michael Cohen. It's not

879
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: shocking that there's evidence of criminality in all those cases.

880
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: Do you know Bob Muller and tell us about him

881
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 1: and how you think he's handling himself in the case.

882
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: So far so Bob Mueller. Anybody who's ever worked with

883
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: him respects him, admires him. He's a guy before he

884
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: became known to us here, served his country. He volunteered

885
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: to go to Vietnam. You know, he had a privileged upbringing.

886
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: He went to Princeton, he was a lacrosse star. And

887
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: when when one of his lacrosse teammates after graduate of

888
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: Princeton died in Vietnam, unlike some people you know home

889
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: referring to he volunteered for service. Um was wounded in

890
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: battle and spent basically his whole life in public service.

891
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: Every time he was he's been offered something to do

892
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: in public service, whether it's that's use attorney or chief

893
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,439
Speaker 1: of the Criminal Division or FBI director. He says, yes,

894
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: he does it. He is at need all these jobs anymore.

895
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: And but people forget you know, now you can swift

896
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: and anybody, I guess you can take somebody who served

897
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: his country, who is a Republican who has never been

898
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: mismerged in anyway like this before, about whom new Gingrid

899
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,959
Speaker 1: said at the time of his appointment. Everyone can relax

900
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: because Bob Mueller is a professional. You know, this is

901
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: a guy who started serving as FBI director right before

902
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: nine eleven, and when the ten year term expired, there

903
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: are but three million people in the country. Rather than

904
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 1: find someone who could then replace him, Barack Obama, who

905
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: was of a different party than the president that appointed

906
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: Bob Mueller in the first place, and the Congress got

907
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: together and with a unanimous vote, rather than find some

908
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: other person to replace Bob Mueller, they changed the law

909
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: a hundred zero and extended his term for two years.

910
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: So here's a person. No one's a god, and no

911
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: one should be put on a pedestal unduly. But of

912
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: anyone in the country who is in law enforcement, there's

913
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,399
Speaker 1: no one w had a better reputation than Bob Mueller. Now,

914
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: how's he conducting myself himself? I think he's doing what

915
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: he's always done. And in my observations of him, both

916
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: as the United Attorney work with him as f BI Director,

917
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: and then observing him separately, he doesn't talk to the press.

918
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: He keeps his head down, he does his work. He's

919
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: not afraid of anything, and he's not afraid of anyone,

920
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: and he believes in public serving. Here's a guy who

921
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 1: is back in private practice, who's know, not young in years,

922
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: who accepted this task knowing the no matter what he

923
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: did or decided or didn't do, that a large pertion

924
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 1: of the population, you know, is going to cast dispersions

925
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: on him. And I wrote a piece about him for

926
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: Time magazine some weeks ago, and the bottom line is,

927
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, here's a person that that a lot of

928
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: people like to pour their hopes and fears into. You know,

929
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: he's either a savior for the progressive left or he's

930
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: a villain to the Trump supporters. He's neither one of

931
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: those things. He's I think, just to buy the book

932
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: lawman who's trying to do a difficult job that he

933
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: was given. I'm prepared to believe that he's going to

934
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: have it, you know, a scathing report. I'm also prepared

935
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: to believe that he will find something different. And my

936
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: hope is that everyone accepts, no matter what side the

937
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: aisle you're on, accepts whatever his findings and proposals are.

938
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: Before we move on from the Trump administration or from

939
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: the Trump investigation, I want to ask you one other question,

940
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: which is you said earlier that collusion in and of

941
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: itself is not necessarily a crime. Giuliani said something similar

942
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: this morning on CNN. It's July, we're recording this, and

943
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: then he had to call into Fox later today to

944
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: clarify that statement, and he said, the President didn't do it,

945
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: but even if he did, it wouldn't be a crime.

946
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: Can you explain that concept of collusion not being a crime.

947
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: And if collusion isn't a crime, what are we all

948
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: doing here? So? I don't know where the word collusion

949
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: came from. Initially, I think there are words in the

950
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: English language. Is it a legal term? So it's not so,

951
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: So that's the point I was about to make. There

952
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: are certain terms that have both specialized legal meaning and

953
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: also cloquial meaning. Right, um and collusion is not one

954
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: that you see in the statute, you know, the statue

955
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: to talk about conspiracy, that talk about aiding in a beading,

956
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: to talk about acting in concert, but there's not one

957
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: that that says collusion. It's a word that's sort of

958
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: easy for people to understand that has a I think

959
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: you think of colluding with the enemy. Yeah, and it

960
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: has a connotation of dastardliness about it. But it's Natasha

961
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: appropriate example, Kate, exactly who I think I've been indicted

962
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: under seal I'm prepared to predict that. Um. So it's

963
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: it's a shorthand way of talking about things that people

964
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: talk about all the time. In the same way you

965
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: say you know someone's a bad guy. That that doesn't

966
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: mean as at mean that people are either subjects, targets

967
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: or defendants, some bad guys and good guys. So it's

968
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: a shorthand that people in the press use. The President

969
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: is seized upon it to say that there is none

970
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: of that which is neither here nor there. And now,

971
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: because it's a shorthand term that has come into popular use, um,

972
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 1: it's convenient for people to say it's not even there's

973
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: no such thing which is why people like me like

974
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: to say it doesn't have any specialized legal meaning. Um,

975
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: but things that might constitute in ordinary parlance collusion can

976
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: also constitute a crime. Right. So if you, for example,

977
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: if it if it is true that these Russian gru

978
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: operatives engaged in this hacking with the assistance of, and

979
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: the knowledge of and or that maybe the direction of

980
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: um people in America who are on the Trump campaign,

981
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: perhaps Roger Stone, who's meant who has alluded to in

982
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: the indict but not charged yet, then that is both

983
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: collusion in this sort of lay person's sense, and it's

984
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: also potentially conspiracy. So you know, again, I don't think

985
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: we make too much of this idea that collusion is

986
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 1: not in the statute, you know, but they're they're conspiracy

987
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: statutes that don't have the word collusion. That doesn't mean

988
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 1: that things that would ordinarily constant collusion are not a crime. Yes, yes, yes,

989
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: So it's really semantics we're talking about. And and a

990
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: lot of people ask, what is taking Robert Muller so

991
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: Long's it takes a long look? But people understand is

992
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: it takes a long time to investigate things, in particular

993
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: white color matters. These things take a few years. And

994
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: it also depends on the scope. I mean, you've have

995
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: multiple indictments, multiple guilty please, you have multiple charges against

996
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: people in other countries, namely Russia that required not only investigation,

997
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: getting information, but but the acquiring of classified information. You

998
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: know that that last indictment against the g r U

999
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: twelve is chock full of stuff that most surely very

1000
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: recently was classified. And there's a back and forth that

1001
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: has to happen with the intelligence community on sources and

1002
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: methods to see what you declassify for purposes of making

1003
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: an adequate indictment, and also to maybe send a message

1004
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: to their intel counterparts in Russia. When you investigate a

1005
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: financial crime, and presumably financial things are being investigated as well,

1006
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: sometimes evidence is in other countries. Sometimes evidence is at

1007
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: one bank and you get a subpoena return from that

1008
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: one bank, and you see the flow of money into

1009
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: an ad has happened all the time in cases that

1010
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: we investigated, and it takes a couple of months to

1011
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: get the subpoena return from the one bank account, and

1012
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: then you look and see, well what money was coming

1013
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: into that bank account, and then you got a subpoena.

1014
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: Those banks. So it's pains taking, painstaking, and especially when

1015
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: people are trying to conceal their crimes, crimes of money

1016
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: laundering in particular. That's all about having shell companies and

1017
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: having payments go from one entity to another. It takes

1018
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: a while to peal the the onion. How bizarre was

1019
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: it when you heard that Putin was inviting investigators to

1020
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: work with It was bizarre and scary. Although more scary

1021
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: and bizarre is that the President seemed to say, Hey,

1022
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: it sounds sounds like a great art, like a great idea,

1023
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: along with like the cyber force thing that they were

1024
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: going to do together. It was going to be impenetrable, though, prate,

1025
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: how could you object to that? Let's listen to this

1026
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: voice mail from a listener who is nice enough to

1027
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: send in a question. My name is Marian Demot. I

1028
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: live in Spring, Texas. If the results of Robert Miller's

1029
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: investigation shows that Trump illegally became president of the United States,

1030
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: what happens to all of the long he's done to

1031
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: us as a country and as a people. What happens

1032
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: to Hillary Clinton, who officially won the election? Thank you

1033
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: so thanks? Should I answered so thanks for the question,

1034
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: and I appreciate the sentiment. I don't believe that the

1035
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: presidency operates like um the Miss American pageant. If there

1036
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: was fraud on the part of the president in becoming

1037
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: the president, and that causes him to be removed from office,

1038
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: then it goes to Mike, goes to Mike Pence, And

1039
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, the broader answer the question is, then I

1040
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 1: think it will remain for a lot of good people

1041
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: in the country to come together, get past it, to

1042
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: try to remedy a lot of bad things that may

1043
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: have been done. But it doesn't go to Hillary. Sorry.

1044
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,439
Speaker 1: I recently interviewed James Comey. I know he's a friend

1045
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: and former colleague of yours. He would not give an inch.

1046
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: I was hoping we could break some news and AskMen

1047
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: about his actions during the two thousand sixteen campaign, including

1048
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: the letter he sent eleven days before the election. Do

1049
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 1: you think he has a fair argument and despite your friendship,

1050
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: do you think he should just say I screwed up? Look,

1051
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: you know he's a smart guy, and I worked for him,

1052
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 1: and I worked alongside him when he was the Deputy

1053
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: Trained General, and I worked in the Senate. Friendship aside, No, no,

1054
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: So he can say what he wants to say. Um,

1055
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: I would have done it differently. And if he believes

1056
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: that what he did was right, then he has a

1057
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: right to say that and right to defend himself. What

1058
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: would you have done? I wouldn't have sent that letter.

1059
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: I thought the letter was a mistake, and I think

1060
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: a lot of I think most people think the letter

1061
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: was a mistake. UM, I understand. I mean the best

1062
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: I can do when talking about other people's errors. Who

1063
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: I think we're operating in good faith. I don't think

1064
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: he was trying to sway the election. I don't think

1065
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 1: he was acting out of partisan interests. I don't think

1066
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: he had an ax to grind with anybody. He looked at,

1067
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, a difficult decision tree, and as he keeps saying,

1068
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: you know, there was that the two doors, And I mean,

1069
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 1: I don't know that I fully buy that, but but

1070
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: what I do believe is that he was trying to

1071
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: make the best decision that he could make. I think

1072
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: it was the wrong decision. And I think you can

1073
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: judge people based on their decision making, both on um,

1074
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: the wisdom of the decision, but also on the intent

1075
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 1: behind the decision. And sometimes people make a mistake of judgment,

1076
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: which I think this was uh and some of the

1077
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: people can make a mistake both of judgment and of

1078
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: and of good faith, or doing something for nefarious purpose.

1079
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: I think he was trying very hard to save the

1080
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: reputation of the FBI or defend the reputation of the FBI.

1081
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: I think in the longer run, it's arguable that he

1082
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: did it more harm than good. And I think the

1083
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: problem with that letter h is that it was on

1084
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: the eve of the election. Yes, and you know, I

1085
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: remember I was a little bit of a unique position

1086
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: to know before the world did, what the consequence of

1087
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: the letter would be, insofar as the laptop was in

1088
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: the custody of you know, my folks, the FBI, as

1089
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: we were working with the Anthony Weiner laptop, because we

1090
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: were investigating Anthony Winer for these other you know, sex

1091
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: abuse related CRIMEO, sexual enticement, crimes of a minor, and

1092
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: so we knew among a small group of people that

1093
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: nobody yet was aware of what was on the laptop.

1094
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: So the sending of the letter indicated a legitimately and

1095
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: naturally to a lot of people, including political opponents of

1096
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, that there must be something damaging, because why

1097
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: would you otherwise sort of a vicious circle. The fact

1098
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: that you wish with the letter must indicate that there's

1099
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: something very damning on the laptop. And I don't think

1100
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 1: people appreciated when they saw the letter, and and for

1101
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 1: their own political reason, I think a lot of people

1102
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: acted badly after they got the letter, um, because it

1103
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: was in their political interest to make hay of it.

1104
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: But I think one should have anticipated that that was

1105
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: going to happen, and it might have been the better

1106
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: course to wait and see if the stuff in the

1107
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: laptop was redundant, irrelevant, um, you know, unnecessary, you know,

1108
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: to affect the investigation, all of which turned out to

1109
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: be so. And why couldn't he have put as many

1110
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: agents as possible on that to comb through those emails

1111
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: and to do nothing until he had the information he

1112
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: needed to move ahead or not. I don't know. I

1113
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: don't know did have the power to do that, right?

1114
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: I think everything relating to how the information on the

1115
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: laptop was exploited, a lot of things relating to that, um,

1116
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: you know, we're not wonderful. I'm looking at this a

1117
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: very long Inspector General report on the issue of what

1118
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: happened with that laptop and how much time it took

1119
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: to ask for the information on the laptop? Right right,

1120
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: my office is in the I report to the extent

1121
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: that you know, we were staying in our lane and

1122
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: focusing on the Anthony Weiner, you know, potential criminal case,

1123
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: and we're a little bit surprised that nobody was doing

1124
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: anything more quickly to exploit and look at the emails

1125
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: in the laptop. A lot of people have asked for

1126
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: would you run for office? Are you asking? Is that

1127
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: a statement? Now? It's a statement and then it's a quizzical. Look.

1128
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: So I thought about running for a train general and

1129
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: I've announced on the podcasts this week that I'm not

1130
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: h there's an open seat, and you know they're they're

1131
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: good people who are running for that position. Look, I

1132
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: think I think public office is important. Um. I enjoyed

1133
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: having the appointed position that I had. I think there's

1134
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: a lot of good that can be done, you know,

1135
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: I think doing things from the outside which I'm learning about.

1136
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,959
Speaker 1: And I have this great task force with Governor Chrissy

1137
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: Todd Whitman and the Brennan Center, which hopes to restore

1138
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: institutions of democracy and I have other things planned. The

1139
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: question about serving in office requires first a stomach for

1140
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: an appetite four and a thick enough skin for um,

1141
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: what it takes to get to office, which is campaigning,

1142
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: which also requires depending on the jurisdiction you're in, a

1143
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: lot of I think fundraising and some people can do it,

1144
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: and some people like it less. I tend to like

1145
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: it less. I think there are ways to do it.

1146
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: I'll think about that for the future. So you haven't

1147
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 1: closed the door on the As what I've said often, UM,

1148
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: is it politics is not my cup of tea. Uh,

1149
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: you know, being a judge is not my cup of tea. Um.

1150
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: What I like doing more than anything else was being

1151
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: aligned prosecutor and being the U. S. Attorney for the

1152
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: Southern District of New York, which I think is one

1153
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: of the purest forms of public service. Um. You could

1154
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: remain independent. You didn't know anything to anybody, you didn't

1155
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: have to ask anybody for nicol, and you got to

1156
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: get up every morning and do the right thing. Some

1157
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: of these other jobs are not like that, and certainly

1158
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: the path to these other jobs is not like that.

1159
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: Which is not that I have great faith in respect

1160
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: for people who throw their hat in the ring, and

1161
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: I've supported some of those people. There are people who

1162
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: worked for me who running for office and who worked

1163
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: alongside me who running for office, and I've supported them

1164
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: and gone to fundraisers for them. At this moment, it

1165
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: just doesn't seem to be for me. I'm getting frantic

1166
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: messages on my computers. Pre needs to leave, and uh, Pre,

1167
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: will you come back and to us anytime? It's really

1168
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: it's a real pleasure, and I think you should reconsider

1169
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: your decision not to run for office because we need smart,

1170
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: engage people like you. And you know, I think it's

1171
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: now more than ever we have to have people who

1172
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 1: have the courage to to be the men and women

1173
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: in the arena, as Teddy Roosevelt would say. Pleasure being

1174
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: on stay tuned with Katie and Brown. Thank you, Brian,

1175
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: now that we've made Pre late for his next appointment.

1176
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: You know, there was so much speculation about his running

1177
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: for office when he left the U. S. Attorney's Office.

1178
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: Are you surprised that he decided met not for me?

1179
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: A little bit? Either? The natural job for him would

1180
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: have been Attorney General of New York and it's an

1181
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: and seat and there are a number of people running.

1182
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: He would have had as good a shot as anyone.

1183
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: But ultimately I'd take him at his word that he

1184
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: decided he didn't want to go through the rigors of

1185
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: running for office. And and this is really kind of

1186
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 1: a sad thing, isn't it, Because so many people are

1187
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: being kept from public service because of how nasty politics

1188
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: have become. Well, you know, and this is gonna be

1189
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 1: a weird thing for me to say, but blame the voters. Um,

1190
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: it's gotten really hard because you know, if you can

1191
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: dig up dirt on your opponent, if you can catch

1192
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, a politician in an embarrassing moment, the voters

1193
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: respond to that, and therefore the incentive is to to

1194
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: do it. And and politics has gotten really ugly and

1195
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: a lot of good people aren't running for office as

1196
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: a result. The other the other factor is of course fundraising. Well,

1197
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: I think he's obviously doesn't have a stomach for that either. Well,

1198
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: a lot of members of Congress spend more than half

1199
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: their time raising money dialing for dollars instead of studying

1200
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: the issue US and meeting with constituents and all the rest,

1201
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: which only shows how important campaign finance reform is right

1202
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: for sure. I agree with you, but I don't think

1203
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: there's any appetite right now to do serious campaign finance reform.

1204
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: And I hate to end the show on such a

1205
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: low note, but I think that's the truth. Well that

1206
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: does it for us, everyone. A big thank you to

1207
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: our producer Gianna Palmer, our assistant producer Nora Richie, and

1208
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: our audio engineer in New York, Jared O'Connell. Thanks also

1209
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: to Jordan Duffy for engineering my part of the conversation

1210
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: from l A today. A big thanks to my assistant,

1211
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: the incomparable Beth Demas. You can only imagine what she

1212
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: has to put up with in folks, join me and

1213
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,959
Speaker 1: Brian and our whole team, and wishing a big thank

1214
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: you and fond farewell to our social media maybn Alison Bresnik.

1215
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: She is on to new adventures in La La Lands.

1216
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: So Brian, you'll have to meet up with Alison as

1217
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: she starts her new life on the Left coast as

1218
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: they say, Yeah, we're gonna be going to a sprays

1219
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: handing salon tomorrow together, so it's very exciting for us both.

1220
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,439
Speaker 1: Maybe you guys can schedule a mutual waxing. Oh Wow,

1221
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought of that great idea, Katie. Anyway,

1222
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: for better or worse, we are the show's executive producers.

1223
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: Mark Phillips wrote our theme music. I'm sorry I thought

1224
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: that was funny. And a word of warning for the

1225
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: rest of August will be on a summer breaks. You're

1226
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: gonna miss this witty rep our day I do. Everyone.

1227
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: This means we won't be releasing new episodes, but we

1228
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: are going to revisit some of our favorite conversations. We

1229
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: might even throw in a surprise or two, so don't worry.

1230
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: You won't have to miss us too much. And as

1231
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: NBC used to say when they would do summer reruns,

1232
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, it's new to you, so

1233
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: hopefully check out some of the podcasts that you might

1234
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: have missed. They're all oldies, bud goodies, everyone kind of

1235
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 1: like me anyway. As always, thank you so much for

1236
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,919
Speaker 1: listening everyone, and enjoy the rest of your summer. Talk

1237
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: to you soon. Bye bye.