1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,400
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective.

2
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,039
Speaker 1: I'm Ben O'Brien, and this week we're joined by the

3
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 1: great Shane Mahoney. And if you don't know who Shane

4
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,720
Speaker 1: Mahoney is, stop now and go back to episode number

5
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,759
Speaker 1: five of The Hunting Collective almost a year ago now

6
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 1: and listen to that episode. He's What that episode will

7
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,280
Speaker 1: do is color a little bit of who he is,

8
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,680
Speaker 1: where he came from, some of the important aspects of

9
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: his early life, and some of his overall philosophies about

10
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: what we do. What I wanted this conversation to be,

11
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 1: and it turned out to be a pretty prolific one,

12
00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 1: is to be specifically breaking down the North American model

13
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,800
Speaker 1: of wildlife conservation. And if you don't know about that model,

14
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,680
Speaker 1: hopefully you do already understand what it is. It's a

15
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 1: set of principles that was introduced by Dr Valerius Geist

16
00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: and Shane Mahoney himself and some others back originally, but he,

17
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,560
Speaker 1: as Shane will describe gain Steam throughout the the following decades,

18
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,840
Speaker 1: and it's really the principles that god wildlife management and

19
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 1: conservation in the US and in Canada and it's important.

20
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 1: I've referenced on this podcast many times. I've talked about

21
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: it on other podcasts and larger platforms many times, and

22
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,479
Speaker 1: I feel as though this conversation is seminal to how

23
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 1: we think about ourselves um and our influence on the

24
00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,880
Speaker 1: natural world, and the way that we manage that influence

25
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 1: and the way that we achieve sustainability in all of

26
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: these things that we do. And so that's what we

27
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 1: talked about. We went through the history. Shane has a

28
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,960
Speaker 1: unique history with the North American Model. There are some

29
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,040
Speaker 1: anecdotes and stories in here that I doubt anyone will

30
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,880
Speaker 1: ever have heard about how it was conceived and how

31
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,560
Speaker 1: it was marketed and promoted and normalized. And I'm very

32
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 1: excited to have this podcast to be where those are seen.

33
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 1: So we're gonna we've broken this up into two episodes.

34
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,760
Speaker 1: This first episode will start to get in We'll get

35
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:04,680
Speaker 1: into the history of a North American model and some

36
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: of the more important tenants, and then next week, next Tuesday,

37
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 1: more will come. But for now, please listen to the

38
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,480
Speaker 1: first part of our wonderful conversation on the North American

39
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:26,840
Speaker 1: Model of wildlife conservation with Shane Mahoney Shane Mahoney, how's

40
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,919
Speaker 1: it going really well here in bose My, Montana? Enjoining

41
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,440
Speaker 1: the the cold sunshine? It's fantastic. Yeah, I find it

42
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 1: like people people will complain about the cold. I find

43
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of cold days here there at

44
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: this blue sky people. The mountains are you know, tower

45
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 1: above you, and its sun is out. It's even if

46
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 1: it's negative five. He still feels wonderful. I love it here, man,

47
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 1: I love it. I don't mind the cold. You make

48
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,799
Speaker 1: it here often. I know you've been here a couple

49
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 1: of times recently. Yeah, I know. I make it to

50
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 1: Montana fairly often because I've done a lot of things

51
00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 1: in this state. I mean, I m work with the

52
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,239
Speaker 1: Elk Foundation, did a lot of things with them over

53
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 1: the years. I mean, it was in this state that

54
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,440
Speaker 1: we filmed the opportunity for all the first full exposition

55
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,239
Speaker 1: of the North American model that's been so widely distributed. Um,

56
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, I did television shows, hosted a narrated Boone

57
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 1: and Crockett's television show for seven years, and they're based

58
00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 1: in Missoula. And now I have a lot of partnerships,

59
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 1: um that are resting in the state. In Missoula still

60
00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 1: with Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation as a major partner. But

61
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 1: here in Bozeman, I have the Wilds Sheep Foundation and

62
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 1: Sitka Gear Mystery Ranch, ETCeteras. So you know, um it's

63
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 1: kind of become a little bit of a little bit

64
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,960
Speaker 1: of a hub state for me in a sense, you know.

65
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 1: And plus it's absolutely glorious here. So and I've hunted

66
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,000
Speaker 1: elk here in the past, and I've done some fishing

67
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,560
Speaker 1: here and I most likely will be back to hunt

68
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: elk again this fall. Great. Great, Well, I don't want

69
00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: to leave the people way. They want to get into

70
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wanted to chat me this time.

71
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 1: And if you if you're interested in Shane's background, go

72
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 1: back and listen to I Believe episode five that you

73
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 1: and I did you know I had to be a

74
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 1: year ago now, Um it does go back into you know,

75
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 1: how you grew up in in your life in Canada

76
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 1: and Newfoundland. And a lot of people have made comments

77
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 1: to me in in the preceding year that that was

78
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: very interesting that they've never heard speaking like that. Um,

79
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,919
Speaker 1: So go back the episode five, listened to that. But

80
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,360
Speaker 1: I want to get into and as much depth as

81
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 1: we possibly can. A couple of things here, but the

82
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,360
Speaker 1: first one is, um, well you already mentioned it, the

83
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 1: North American model of wildlife conservation. It's it's been something

84
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,040
Speaker 1: that's um come up for me a lot recently, come

85
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 1: up for our world a lot recently as we get

86
00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,440
Speaker 1: challenged from without, you know, within our group. Is something

87
00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,279
Speaker 1: that we've we've used to push back on. We have

88
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,080
Speaker 1: this model of conservation, it's been codified and UM it's

89
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,799
Speaker 1: and I've heard described as kind of a look back

90
00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,719
Speaker 1: um to the history of conservation in North America, you know,

91
00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,159
Speaker 1: how tip back to the history of conservation, but also

92
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 1: a way to look forward as well, um in the

93
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,040
Speaker 1: same vein. So I want to go through that and

94
00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,279
Speaker 1: and maybe start at the beginning. UM. And what you know,

95
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,720
Speaker 1: take us back to the first time you heard this term,

96
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, where you were, and how it started to become, um,

97
00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,159
Speaker 1: what it became eventually when it was launched. Well, I

98
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 1: tend to ask very long questions, That's quite all right.

99
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,680
Speaker 1: I tend to give a long answers. So between us

100
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,160
Speaker 1: we'll chew up the time, yes we will. But first

101
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,680
Speaker 1: of all, a lot of people, UM, when they hear

102
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,240
Speaker 1: the term um, and even people who use the term

103
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 1: frequently um feel or believe that this is a very

104
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:50,039
Speaker 1: old term and that somehow that term was around ever

105
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,040
Speaker 1: since the movement, if you will, for conservation began, and

106
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,080
Speaker 1: that's just completely untrue. The term entered the English language

107
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 1: around nineteen eight. Before that time, no one had ever

108
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 1: used this term, because no one had ever attempted to

109
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,160
Speaker 1: come up with a moniker or a title, if you will,

110
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:17,560
Speaker 1: for the system of institutions, policies, and laws and organizations

111
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: that collectively form the model or the operational approach of

112
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 1: to conservation in North America. And it was first coined

113
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: the term by a man, a very very close friend

114
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:35,320
Speaker 1: and mentor of mind, Dr Valerius Geist. And why did

115
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 1: he feel it necessary or what motivated him to come

116
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: up with the term was at that time there was

117
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 1: a growing investment on the part of some people in

118
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 1: this idea of capturing and maintaining in captive circumstances wildlife.

119
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 1: In Canada and in the United States, the whole game

120
00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 1: ranching game farming industry, which had its share of notoriety,

121
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,000
Speaker 1: a considerable percentage of which has been very justly deserved,

122
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 1: and Geist and amongst some others, and of course I

123
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,400
Speaker 1: was drawn into it as a as a friend and student.

124
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 1: With him, Um pointed out the amazing risks, uncertainties and unknowns,

125
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,720
Speaker 1: as well as the known problems associated with keeping wildlife

126
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:33,120
Speaker 1: in captive circumstances, selectively breeding them, and doing all of

127
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: the things that eventually formed the basis of the game

128
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 1: ranching business in in our two countries, and in particular

129
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,680
Speaker 1: we were warning, and he was warning about the problems

130
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: of a disease transfer between wild and the captive animals,

131
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 1: and not just the diseases that we knew, but it

132
00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:01,440
Speaker 1: has been a pattern over historical time that under captive circumstances,

133
00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: for many reasons, some of which are not well known,

134
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 1: novel diseases arise. And so while he was not predicting

135
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 1: a c w D problem, a chronic wasting disease problem

136
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: in specifics, he was predicting essentially that phenomena, the creation

137
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 1: of that environment. Yes, And so in these debates, which

138
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 1: became very much, very intense, there were critics of his

139
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 1: Um who kept coming back and saying, well, so what

140
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, what's at risk? And at one point he said,

141
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 1: the entire model of conservation in North America's at risk,

142
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,640
Speaker 1: and they responded, Uh, what model there isn't what models

143
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 1: out there? And of course this turned Geist to his

144
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 1: computer where he smacked out, you know, the first real

145
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 1: peer reviewed academic publication on the model. And that too

146
00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 1: is interesting because people have to understand that what's now

147
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,640
Speaker 1: general parlance or general discussion amongst us all as hunters,

148
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:10,320
Speaker 1: non hunters, state agency personnel, politicians, etcetera, did in fact

149
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,680
Speaker 1: come out of the academic literature. And then I began

150
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,000
Speaker 1: the effort of popularizing this, bringing it to American audiences

151
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,520
Speaker 1: and talking about it a great deal. I did that

152
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,920
Speaker 1: first in in Green Bay, Wisconsin that a governor symposium,

153
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 1: and virtually no one in the audience had ever heard

154
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,480
Speaker 1: of the North American model. And through a group of

155
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,320
Speaker 1: colleagues who worked with me, eventually that I met in

156
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,560
Speaker 1: this country, we started taking sort of a workshop to

157
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,960
Speaker 1: the state agencies in the United States of America, and

158
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,320
Speaker 1: out of those state agencies and presentations at conferences, we

159
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,199
Speaker 1: eventually got this term, first of all, floating out through

160
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,680
Speaker 1: the discussion that was taking place around North America. And

161
00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: suddenly people realized the value of having a concept school

162
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,760
Speaker 1: basket that you could carry it around with and instead

163
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 1: of having to talk about all those individual pieces, you

164
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: could say the model and people would understand exactly what

165
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 1: you meant. And you can number you have a numbered

166
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,679
Speaker 1: a numbered list of tenants and things that and that,

167
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 1: and there were there were essentially seven principles. Do you

168
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 1: believe you know, I've read a lot um about the subject,

169
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: and you know, in the last couple of years, as

170
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 1: it's become important to my you know, understanding of what

171
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,960
Speaker 1: we do in conservation, or my general understanding of the

172
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,559
Speaker 1: historical principles, you know, and really um an ethical prescription

173
00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:42,199
Speaker 1: for the future of conservation too, at um. But a

174
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 1: lot of people will say it didn't really come to

175
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,079
Speaker 1: be articulated until the early two thousand's, you know, is

176
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,320
Speaker 1: that is that the way that you know, I know,

177
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 1: you say, like in smaller pockets that you start to grow.

178
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 1: It took it. It took about a decade, so that

179
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,840
Speaker 1: would be right. I mean, it took about a decade

180
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,920
Speaker 1: for us too, to really bring it. I mean I

181
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,680
Speaker 1: I personally was speaking at every event you could possibly

182
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,520
Speaker 1: name to talk about this. We had in some cases

183
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 1: four and five state agencies coming together to to attend

184
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 1: the two day workshops that we would give on this.

185
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,559
Speaker 1: We had organizations like the Elk Foundation and the National

186
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 1: Wall Turkey Federation that helps sponsor some of some of those.

187
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: We had individual state agents such as Arizona when Dwayne

188
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,800
Speaker 1: Schroff was director inviting me in too simply speak to

189
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 1: all his staff. Everybody from an administrative personnel read up

190
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,520
Speaker 1: the line around this, and that happened on many occasions.

191
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: And then of course, you know, others picked it up

192
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 1: and they began to talk about it in their agencies,

193
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: and then they became knowledgeable of it and they went

194
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,559
Speaker 1: elsewhere and spoke about it. But it's a very interesting

195
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,920
Speaker 1: point historiographically and from the point of view of having influence.

196
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,080
Speaker 1: We took a term I happen to know the man

197
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 1: who invented it, and I knew the history of why

198
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 1: it came to be. Not very many people will have

199
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,079
Speaker 1: ever heard that history that we've just shared on your podcast.

200
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 1: But that's what happened, um. But we were able to

201
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: take it without money, without an organization behind us, without

202
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,000
Speaker 1: any kind of beautifully laid out planned uh, just by

203
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 1: sheer passion and commitment in recognizing the value of this idea.

204
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:27,600
Speaker 1: You know, I gave years to essentially UM marketing, if

205
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 1: you will, the term, and now it's out there. It is,

206
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,320
Speaker 1: it is. And we were talking the other day about

207
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 1: UM I think the same room and talking about timeliness, right,

208
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,040
Speaker 1: and you know, serving up your message when it's being

209
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: when it's ready to be heard. So what do you

210
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 1: think this What do you think during that time? I mean,

211
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 1: obviously we just discussed it. It It spans, you know, roughly

212
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,840
Speaker 1: twelve year period there, fifteen year period until it really

213
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,559
Speaker 1: got codified and articulated in the public sense of that.

214
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,360
Speaker 1: What do you feel like it says about out that

215
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,559
Speaker 1: generally that decade in conservation, where was the conservation world.

216
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,559
Speaker 1: It's obvious to me that it says that they were

217
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 1: desperate to to see this outlined in some way, or

218
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,200
Speaker 1: maybe they didn't even know that they needed it, but

219
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,439
Speaker 1: when they heard it, they knew it was a solution

220
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,440
Speaker 1: to a problem, to kind of take people through where

221
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,920
Speaker 1: you feel like the progression of conservation wasn't during that time? Well,

222
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,400
Speaker 1: I think both things you say are true. I mean

223
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,559
Speaker 1: I think and I think both those things are often true. Generally,

224
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 1: there can be a community of interest for an idea

225
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 1: that are not aware that they needed. But as soon

226
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,600
Speaker 1: as they see it, they say, of course that that

227
00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. There was also however, at that time,

228
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,320
Speaker 1: in the nine eighties, UM, it was really when we

229
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,679
Speaker 1: started to see the explosion of this whole idea of

230
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 1: game ranching and um exotics being moved in and out.

231
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 1: And it was not only resident or an indigenous or

232
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 1: native wildlife that was being incorporated. People were talking about

233
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 1: bringing all kinds of exotics in and it was happening

234
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,800
Speaker 1: in a way that was also tied to to large

235
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 1: money and and big agriculture in the sense you know,

236
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: and uh, that opened up a series of conflicts that

237
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 1: still reside in this debate space UM. Conflicts over Okay,

238
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 1: who owned them now? When while if it's on the land,

239
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,760
Speaker 1: the state agency, the state government has the responsibility to

240
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 1: them or the provincial government under the public trust doctrine,

241
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 1: which is a principle of the model, and that has

242
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,120
Speaker 1: been upheld in court. Well, once you transpose those wild

243
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,400
Speaker 1: animals into fenced enclosures, began to feed them and inoculate

244
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: them and do all the things you have to do

245
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 1: when you confind animals in a small space. UM, suddenly

246
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, debates started to arise over well, who owned them?

247
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 1: Could these not be private property? Were they not private property?

248
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 1: And of course this cracked open a very big conceptual

249
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 1: debate which was absolutely foundational to the future of conservation

250
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,080
Speaker 1: and all utilization of wildlife by consumptive users. Certainly that oh,

251
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 1: maybe there was now going to be two kinds of wildlife.

252
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,000
Speaker 1: There was going to be the public's wildlife and then

253
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 1: there's going to be the private citizens wildlife. How do

254
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,680
Speaker 1: we how do we, you know, judge the transfer between

255
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 1: those two. I mean, that's a complicated thing. And it

256
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 1: also is a complicated thing mechanistically as you point out,

257
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,400
Speaker 1: and legalistically, um, which would involve you know, which government

258
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 1: departments were responsible agriculture or the Wildlife Agency, etcetera, etcetera.

259
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,600
Speaker 1: But it also tapped into, of course, one of the foundational, quiet,

260
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:54,600
Speaker 1: but deeply held beliefs, views and hopes and values of

261
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,320
Speaker 1: American and Canadian society, which was and has always been

262
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 1: that while if is owned by no one except all

263
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 1: of us collectively, and this is one of those things

264
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 1: that you know, um, we can look to where the

265
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,280
Speaker 1: public doesn't go around every day thinking about this, but

266
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,640
Speaker 1: should you challenge it? Suddenly they start to think about

267
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 1: it pretty seriously. It would be akin to saying to

268
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 1: the American public today, we have decided to privatize all

269
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 1: the national parks. And you know, even though not everybody

270
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 1: is screaming every day about national parks in this country,

271
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 1: pretty soon people would stay off a part of the

272
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 1: Yellowstone and those animals will now belong to a certain

273
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 1: person subset of individuals. So it really cracked open that

274
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 1: kind of foundational debate. And therefore that too, was part

275
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,600
Speaker 1: of the motivation for clarifying, hold on, we have a system,

276
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 1: and it's been very successful, and it's been based on

277
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 1: these kinds of principles, and private ownership of wildlife was

278
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 1: not one of them. So we're not going there. And

279
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 1: this became a very vitriolic debate. I mean, there were

280
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,960
Speaker 1: there were there were death threats, and there were a

281
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,439
Speaker 1: lot of things. This became a long before it was

282
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 1: as intense in the United States. It was viciously intense

283
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,600
Speaker 1: in Canada, and eventually became viciously intense in a lot

284
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 1: of places. And it's only last year that the government

285
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 1: of Missouri, you know, finally decided that you know, wildlife

286
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 1: under private or captive circumstances remained the responsibility of the

287
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 1: wildlife agency and was not going to be transferred to

288
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,679
Speaker 1: agriculture and treated, you know, fundamentally differently. So the debate

289
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 1: still rages over this. Yeah, And I think it when

290
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,199
Speaker 1: these fundamental changes occur, or these these happenings in our

291
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 1: world occur that results in this need for fundamental change

292
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 1: or fundamental shift, it has to take many years for

293
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 1: it to settle in, and especially the way our you know,

294
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,680
Speaker 1: the model prescribed state were un manage it every state,

295
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,119
Speaker 1: every region, you know, some I'm sure there's some states.

296
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is true or not, but

297
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 1: there there may still be some states in this country

298
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: where there are very few or none at all high

299
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 1: fence properties that have privatized wildlife. That is true. I

300
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,000
Speaker 1: lived in a a state of Texas where there it is

301
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 1: part of the culture at this point in a large way. So,

302
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it's with those varying values across the board,

303
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to kind of lock that down and

304
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 1: condify that it is true. And of course what it

305
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 1: what it also remarks I think is that, um, you know,

306
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: our debates over wildlife and whether even something that superficially

307
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,880
Speaker 1: might not seem that significant, you know, so some animals

308
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: are going to be held behind fences can unleash really

309
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:57,680
Speaker 1: fundamental outpourings of expression and concern on the part of

310
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 1: people and institutions, which, if you think about it, is

311
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,159
Speaker 1: evidence for the fact that we really did have a model.

312
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 1: We really did have principles, We really did have institutions right,

313
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 1: and systems of laws and so on that we had

314
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 1: developed over time to safeguard wildlife and to safeguard human

315
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,119
Speaker 1: engagements with it under a prescribed set of values, ethical ethics,

316
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:27,000
Speaker 1: and moral compass bearings that in general will remain acceptable

317
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,880
Speaker 1: to two people. There were, of course critics. I mean,

318
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 1: I could name you even some high profile personalities in

319
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 1: the conservation world today who said to me when I

320
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 1: first started this in the nineteen nineties, what model. We

321
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,239
Speaker 1: don't have a model, And they kind of, you know,

322
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 1: dismissed it as though the model is what they kind

323
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 1: of personally carry around with them, right. But in the

324
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 1: end we succeeded massively, and fortunately in September this year,

325
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,919
Speaker 1: the Geist and I will come out now with the

326
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 1: first full edited volume book devoted to the North American model,

327
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: which I believe was only took thirty two years. Shane. Yeah,

328
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: that's all. In the meantime, there's been a lot of

329
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 1: writing about it there, but this book will really bring

330
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 1: it together. Uh. And it's an effort to bring to

331
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 1: create a compendium very carefully chosen in terms of the

332
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 1: chapters and so on, that a new student coming in

333
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: if they wanted to know what is this thing they

334
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 1: talk about, this North American model, they can go when

335
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: they can understand it a huge resource, I feel, and

336
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,439
Speaker 1: I think you have. I've talked about this before, but

337
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: I feel that we don't have enough of that for

338
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't even to be new. It could

339
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,639
Speaker 1: be any hunter or angler who was wondering about the

340
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: history about how all these models became to be, um,

341
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 1: whether it come where, whether you could just talk typically

342
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: about not even uh like the Pittman Robert Robertson exercise

343
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 1: tax model, like just that as a model. What what

344
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: that does? I mean it's taken for him and Dingle Johnson,

345
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: and I think should probably take for him in other

346
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 1: ways in our world. I probably will and m Sureley

347
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: wills it seems to work. Um. And you know, there's

348
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 1: some parts of the Lander Water Conservation Fund where we're

349
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: pulling moneys moneys from off shore drilling and putting them

350
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: into conservation works. So I think there's there's a model there,

351
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 1: a principle there that maybe hasn't been articulated that could be.

352
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 1: But I'm immensely glad that that you and um professor

353
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: guys have done that because it is needed and it's

354
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,160
Speaker 1: something that I wonder Another thing I wanted to ask about,

355
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: and if I could just Jergen, I think this is

356
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 1: a one of the really interesting things when we come

357
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: out with this book will be how well it is

358
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: taken up and how well it is circulated. UH. Four

359
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 1: years ago I finished two monographs for UH, the International

360
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: Journal of Environmental Studies on the role of hunting specifically

361
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: and conservation in North America. This is the largest collections,

362
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 1: about twenty five peer reviewed papers out of a European

363
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 1: journal that is largely left word leaning in most of

364
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 1: its politics. It's very much an environmental journal. But they,

365
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: you know, they have published these two monographs, and I thought,

366
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 1: when we published those two monographs where I did a boy,

367
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: people will really want to take them up because here

368
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: you have in one, you know, two little volumes. You

369
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: have the information on the recovery of wildlife, specific case

370
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 1: studies for species, why it happened, how it happened, that

371
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: funding mechanisms, everything of that nature around hunting um and

372
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: yet there has been very very little interest or pick

373
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: up on those things. And yet with those two volumes

374
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: and this new book, as I said, you could have

375
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: a student coming into this program in order university or

376
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: college who would have what has has taken me forty

377
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 1: years to to sort of compile, you know, that they

378
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: would have it there. And the hope there was that

379
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: this would be really uh taken up and really utilized

380
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,239
Speaker 1: by layman, by professionals, by academics and so on. So

381
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: here's a challenge here now for your podcast. You know,

382
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: maybe this uh, this this new system here and the

383
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: whole meat eator machine and so on and so forth

384
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: might be quite helpful as a vehicle to help get

385
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: this out. I hope. So, yeah, I hope so because

386
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: because again I love I love the idea. You know,

387
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you guys put it out or

388
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 1: has just been picked up over time, that that is

389
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: this reflection on the history of hunting and conservation and

390
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: how those things came to be known as parallel at

391
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: the very least, but also this prescription towards the future,

392
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: as if as to say, like we this is we're

393
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: currently in what I would say the hey day have

394
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: success for this model. It's kind of weaved its way

395
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: in and out of these generations and these decades and

396
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: and remained. Um. And I feel like that's that's an

397
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: important thing to me and to think of it. And

398
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: if if somebody takes one thing out of this podcast

399
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: going forward, is to think of the model in that way.

400
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: You think of it as a look back but also

401
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: a prescription forward. Um. And that's something very recently that

402
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 1: I've come to understand and that's what I think makes

403
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: it so important. And what happens there in terms of

404
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: your point about going forward? Then, um, you know what

405
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: happens if that isn't workable for the future? And what

406
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: are the alternatives that will be workable? Are there any?

407
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: What do they look like? I mean, we really are

408
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: at a time where many many pieces of evidence forced

409
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: us to think about this, right, Yeah, And we've we've

410
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: talked about that in some recently over some bourbon at

411
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: the Wild Cheap Show and you know, elsewhere Uh. But

412
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: I also think my other personal opinion on this is

413
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: that it's important to have a starting point if we

414
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: are going to change the model or be you know,

415
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: forced to or just by happenstances of the way society

416
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: interacts with wildlife, if we feel the need to shift it,

417
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: which I'm sure we will, yeah, of course in the

418
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: short term or long term or both, have a place

419
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: to start and have an agreed upon place to start,

420
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: like this is what's working now, there's seven tenants. Let's

421
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: do we need to add some take some away to it?

422
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: Are you know some of these tenants in this model

423
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: maybe not so effective in the way that they're being

424
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: undertaken right now and across the state level, or however

425
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: we would say however we would at tackle that. But

426
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: it's important to have a place from which we start. Um.

427
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, just just hearing that you

428
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: know some of the things you just said, I didn't

429
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: know at all about the history of it. I think

430
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: it's it's huge for people understand where this came from

431
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: and how it was born out, and the fact that

432
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: we're dealing with CWD outbreaks all over the country. It's

433
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: a huge topic in our world. And you know val

434
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: Geist was thinking of this idea. When he was thinking

435
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: of this model, he was and and of course he's

436
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: been proven unfortunately, he has been proven deadly accurate in

437
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: his forecasts. And you know, we should also float another

438
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: cautionary tale, UM, the appearance of this rather strange disease,

439
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: chronic wasting disease, which we now have found in Norway

440
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: and South Korea in various other places. So these this

441
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: is moving its way, um, but it originated here, and

442
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: originated in this country right in originated a state not

443
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: far from here, and so on. This does not mean

444
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: that we finally set the boogeyman free, because there could

445
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: be many other things which we are not aware of,

446
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: that are taking place in that does E's cauldron that

447
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: captive wildlife can create. And so while we ponder the

448
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: implications of what a massive expansion of chronic wasting disease

449
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: across wider ranges of the species could mean, while we

450
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: ponder what it would be, what it would implicate or

451
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: or or insinuate if we found that that disease would

452
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: jump easily to people. Um, we might also reflect on

453
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: the fact that as long as we maintain these animals

454
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: in captive circumstances, we run the risk of brand new

455
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: problems that have not yet EMO. Yeah, like we were

456
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: saying earlier, I mean, it creates this environment. Who knows

457
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: what the outcomes of this, the creation of that environment are,

458
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: but it's there. It's kind of always always on, always on.

459
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: It was very interesting. Just one small little further point

460
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: on that. When I was in charge of wildlife research

461
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: in Newfoundland and Labrador, we had a strong then because

462
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: every province was being faced with it as many states

463
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: were ideas from local entrepreneurs to to raise captive whatever

464
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: was made sense in that location, and they wanted to

465
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: bring in uh they wanted to ranch caribou, for example,

466
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: and I was deadly opposed to this. And they they

467
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: brought in experts from New Zealand, where a lot of

468
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 1: this work, you know, had happened a long time before,

469
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: veterinarians and others and came and had a big debate

470
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: with the provincial government in Newfoundland and our biologists myself

471
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: and so on included. And I remember one of the

472
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: things that really tipped over the conversation because they were

473
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: forceful in their expression that you know, we can contain

474
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: these problems. You know, we had the best veterinarians, we

475
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: we look after the animals, all those things being true.

476
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: Was just before they came to Newfoundland. I was well

477
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: connected in the literature and geist and I were constantly,

478
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: you know, screaming through and streaming through the literature looking

479
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: for problems that were emergent. And just before they came

480
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: for those meetings in Newfoundland, um, a strange disease had

481
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: broken out that was affecting was developing lesions on the

482
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: faces of captive red deer in New Zealand. And they

483
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: had never seen it before, even though they had had

484
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: these animals in captivity and we're you know, selling venison

485
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: as its marketed you know, around the DA to this day. Yeah. Uh.

486
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: And I brought this up in the discussion, I remember,

487
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: and they didn't expect us to know about it, and

488
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: of course the disease was too young for anyone to

489
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: know exactly what was happening. But it was just another

490
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: example of how even long term practices with animals and

491
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: captivity can continue to generate novel diseases over time. Yeah,

492
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: is there. You may have just answered that with some

493
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: of some of that reflection, but as it was there

494
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: a time where you you know, from the time that

495
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: you first you know, started discussing what this model was,

496
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: and you're kind of rising in your mind that you

497
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: that you realize how important it was. Was there a

498
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: moment that you remember specifically or a group series, I

499
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: do very very well. I mean there was, and it

500
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: was instantaneous, um, because when I first read that first paper,

501
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: and of course I knew that paper was coming out

502
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: because Geist and I were already sort of together, you know,

503
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about things and many many, many things

504
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: that he and I talked about. UM. And it just

505
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: struck me as soon as as soon as you had

506
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: this this this kind of portable, uh conceptual little library

507
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: with you. Now, UM, you didn't have to reach for

508
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: thoughts and considerations in a discussion or an argument, to

509
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: prove a point or to or to try and explain

510
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: why something should matter in conservation. All of a sudden

511
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: you could open this little box up and there in

512
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: the theater, you know, behind as the curtain moved out,

513
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,959
Speaker 1: you saw on the stage all the players, the institutions,

514
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 1: the policies, the laws, the funding mechanisms, you know, the

515
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: idea that wildlife belongs to everyone, the application of science

516
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: and expertise. You saw it all there, and you could

517
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: simply look at it as you were sort of explaining

518
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: that world to somebody. You could do it in a

519
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: way that the narrative was logical, it was concise, it

520
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: was contained, and the principles that were embedded in it

521
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: were of course principles that matter to everyone. So for me,

522
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: it was virtually instantaneous. I remember the discussions with Dr

523
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: Geist at the time saying, you know, normally, what happens

524
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: in a peri viewed publication in an academic journal, you

525
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: might have a readership of thirty forty, fifty seventy people. Honestly,

526
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: for those of you involved in podcast and those social

527
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: media they seem such ridiculous numbers. You ask yourself, why

528
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: would anyone do it? Now they have other impacts. But

529
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: my concern, and I was right in that concern, was

530
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: that if we didn't find a way to sort of

531
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: take the show on the road with this idea, that

532
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: it ran the risk of simply being embedded and somebody

533
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: picking it up ten years later and said, you know,

534
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: there was an article published ten years ago by a

535
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: guy Geist, and it's referred to this. I was convinced

536
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: instantly and what was needed was a road show. And

537
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: I started the road show. And I started the road

538
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: show in Green Bay, Wisconsin at the Governor's Symposium on

539
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: Hunting and Fishing, when I was first my first real

540
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: invitation to come and speak in the United States, and

541
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: I laid it on and that evening, and from that

542
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: very day there started a process of people in that

543
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: audience who came up to me, after people in the

544
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: Turkey Federation, people who became very close friends and colleagues

545
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: of mine over time, and we collectively and independently took

546
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: that show on the road and that's why we're having

547
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: this conversation today. Yeah, it's huge, um, and it's you know,

548
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: a relatively We're not talking fifty years go here. I mean,

549
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: we're talking we're in the middle of the creation of

550
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: this thing. I really, I really feel. I mean, like

551
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: you say, your your book will come out soon, so

552
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: it it's obviously just by that fact, we're in the

553
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: middle of the story being written here. Yes. Um, it's

554
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: not like we can look back and it's not the

555
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: turn of the century where we can say, you know, um,

556
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: the first conferences or the first this first that we're

557
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: still you know, close to the first time. This is

558
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: really you know, I would I would say, put out

559
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: there in a way that could be consumed by everybody

560
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: for all time in that book. Um, well, let's break

561
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: down some of the tenants here, because I think we're

562
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: talking before that. I went on I was on Joe

563
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: Rogan's podcast when we started to break down these tenants.

564
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: We were talking about all kinds of subjects, um ass

565
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: off the case there. I think we got to Batman

566
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: or something somehow in here got to Batman. Well maybe

567
00:33:53,440 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: we need that, maybe here Batman. Um. But you know,

568
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: even though we didn't really didn't really go through it

569
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: in detail, the reaction from so many non hunters, um,

570
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: when we went through these tenants on his podcast, which

571
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: is a huge reach obviously, UM, it was amazing. People

572
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: like I didn't know that these thoughts were organized. I

573
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: didn't know that this was I didn't know what I

574
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: thought what you talked about was bullshit. But it seems

575
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: like because it's organized in this way and they all

576
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: all these things are relatable and functional, that you hunters

577
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 1: have thought this thing out, you know, Um, you conservationists

578
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: have thought this thing out. Hunting is a huge part

579
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about, and so, um, that's what

580
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: propelled me to want to, you know, to continue to

581
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: break this down as a hunter who is somebody who

582
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: has to who is entrusted at some level with going

583
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: out in the public and talking about, um, what we do.

584
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: I feel like probably there's a lot of hunters that

585
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: have no idea or very little idea about how these

586
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: tenants were formed and then how they you know, were

587
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: listed in the way that they're listed. Yeah, so let's

588
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: start with the first one. I don't think you feel

589
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: like we should read them all first and then go

590
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: through them or just go through them one at the time.

591
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: What's the best way to maybe just go through them

592
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: one other times? So we don't expect people to remember

593
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: this big list. You know, this is painful. This is

594
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: painful enough to listen to. We don't want to make

595
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: it any more difficult for them. We should have had

596
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: a whiskey a little bit more entertaining. This is Yeah,

597
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: you're just just lean back and get educated to your people.

598
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: This is what we're gonna try. Um, the first one

599
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: is Wildlife as public trust resource. You know, take us

600
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: through the thought process with that well of course, Um.

601
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: Leaving aside the Native Americans, for whom, in fact the

602
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: resource was always treated as a public trust, even though

603
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: it may not have been codified. That was how they

604
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: approached wildlife. Obviously, Um, the European colonizers, or the European

605
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: immigrants that came to the United States and to Canada

606
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: for that matter, in the periods of the early fifteen hundreds,

607
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: and in Newfoundland's case, and then the colonies that started

608
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: to appear in places like Cupids in Newfoundland in sixteen ten,

609
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: Jamestown and so on and so forth in the United States,

610
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: as that movement began to take hold, of course, Um,

611
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: there was a there was a reality clash that occurred

612
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: that we can only imagine these people coming from the

613
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: difficult circumstances of Europe that in many cases involved landscapes

614
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: that had been massively changed, living in urban environments of

615
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: great filth, and circumstances of great deprivation for many of

616
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: them in many many ways. And they were seeking freedom

617
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: from a lot of things, including religious persecution and other things.

618
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: And they all of a sudden landed upon the shores

619
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: of this extraordinary, massive place that they could not even imagine.

620
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: The contours of it was so massive of um, and

621
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: it through you know, it thrived with wildlife of all kinds,

622
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: and the oceans and the streams on the land and

623
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: so on. And you know, they therefore were faced with

624
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: this incredible bounty that they had never witnessed before, as

625
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: well as meeting cultures that they had never known existed.

626
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 1: And they had come, however, from political systems, many of them,

627
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: in which degrees of privilege to one extent or another,

628
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: sometimes extreme uh in terms of ownership of wildlife lay

629
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: in the hands of wealthy with private citizens and wealthy

630
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: citizens in particular, and in many cases, of course, in

631
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: in the hands of reigning monarchs are basically in for

632
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: many centuries in various parts of Europe, essentially absconded to

633
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: themselves the right, the only rights. And so this was

634
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: this was a circumstance now where suddenly nobody owned anything. Really,

635
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: they didn't even in the land as they saw it,

636
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: leaving aside against again the tragic story of the of

637
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: the Native American um and so all kinds of new

638
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: balances has to be worked out. Well, I just get

639
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: this land because I fence it. Well, you couldn't just

640
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: do that in Europe. But suddenly you could do that

641
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: kind of thing here, and then the issue became, you

642
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: know the wildlife, well, I have free access to it,

643
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. And in the early

644
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: days that's the way it had to be. But they

645
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: began even fairly soon in the local environments of colonies

646
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: to find out that they could quickly denude the landscape

647
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: of wildlife if they try it, and because they had

648
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: to rely on it, and there were in fact some

649
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: very early attempts amazingly so in this country for kind

650
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: of restrictive local game laws that didn't amount to much. Yeah,

651
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: didn't they always? They always beat up against manifest destiny

652
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: or there's the idea that you know, we're just going

653
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: to blow through this. Well, you certainly couldn't control, you know,

654
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: the idea of control, as I said last night, and

655
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: discussions here in the city and the town own you know,

656
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: that was not really on the agenda. But eventually what

657
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: would take place is that there would be a challenge

658
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: of this um dealing with the harvest of oysters actually

659
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: in a river system, where the issue came up before

660
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: the courts to say whether or not somebody could essentially

661
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: own that particular resource in that particular location and exclude

662
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: others sort of from it. So this was the wild Takings,

663
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: and there was established a law at the time that

664
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: said no, that these resources reside in the public trust.

665
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: And one can question why the court would have rendered

666
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: that decision, but of course courts themselves are the products

667
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: of cultural circumstances, and in the circumstance of the new

668
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: world and the new opportunity and the new way of

669
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,479
Speaker 1: doing things, there certainly was a reluctance to go back

670
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: to something that would mirror or to create something that

671
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: would mirror the often more exclusionary policies and laws of

672
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: Europe with respect to access to wildlife. And the only

673
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: way out of that was to essentially say, you know,

674
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: it will be for everyone, which, as we know, uh

675
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 1: for a significant period of time meant that wildlife became

676
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: vulnerable because that idea also made it much more difficult

677
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: to constrain people right, and that eventually is what led

678
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: us to the point where ultimately the great revolution in

679
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: how we would deal with wildlife and all the other

680
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, fair chase hunting and application of science, other

681
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: principles you will come to. How they eventually emerged, but

682
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: the foundational principle of all and what is considered the

683
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 1: most sacred foundational principle for North American conservation. And remember,

684
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: Canada and the United States joined in this model, which

685
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: itself for something we might talk about because that was

686
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: a phenomenon was that no one owns wild things. And

687
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: this had precedence in many historical laws, including the idea

688
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: of res nullius in Roman law, for example, which had

689
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: essentially saying the same thing, it's owned by no one

690
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: until you possess it, until you harvested, for example. And

691
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: there were traceable other issues of law and jurisprudence that

692
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: the that the famous case of Martin versus Waddell, which

693
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: was the case that I refer to in the Supreme

694
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: Court with Chief Justice Tawny residing, that eventually led to

695
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: the proclamation that this was going to be a public

696
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: trust resource. There were linkages with Magna Carta, and there

697
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: were linkages with Roman law. So I'm not saying that

698
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: they didn't borrow from international institutions and policies, but ultimately

699
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: they created a system here which really did enshrine this

700
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: notion that every citizen of Canada and the United States

701
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,919
Speaker 1: equally owns, although no one really owns wild things. Yeah,

702
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: and a complicated, uh, a complicated idea to explain. Right,

703
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: of course, of course, the thing that bangs up again,

704
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: I own the land and I own the wildlife exactly.

705
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: And this is and that's a really important point that

706
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: you raised there, because, of course, private property rights in

707
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: the United States and Canada, but especially in this country

708
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: the United States, have been foundational to the economic stability, growth,

709
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: and prosperity of this nation. So and that is also,

710
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: I would say, considered an absolutely inviolate principle of Americanism. Um.

711
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 1: And yet, as you point out, we had to deal

712
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: with the fact that, Okay, I own this land. I

713
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: fenced it, I've probably you know, produced it or cultivated

714
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: it and done all kinds of great things. But a

715
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: deer pops in, or a bear comes in, or whatever

716
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: might come in the right there on my land, but

717
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: I do not own them. That's a powerful thing for

718
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: a country to have been able to lay down in

719
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: very early days. Yeah, we've seen that in the you know,

720
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: the more this this, all these these these tenants kind

721
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: of open up these rabbit holes that we can charge down.

722
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: But we've seen that in kind of the modern parlance

723
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: around public lands. You know, you know, Utah is a

724
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: huge bastion for pro state transfer. Um. And folks there

725
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: are in hatch and among them and others have called

726
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: back to the Homestead Act, like it's America's right to

727
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: go and grab up this land and own it and

728
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 1: profit from it, right, um. That being this deeply held

729
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: ideal that that we have as a country, using that

730
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: as a way to say that public lands are go

731
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: against public lands or some sort of aristocracy um to

732
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: go yeah, in reverse. Right. So, so we've run up

733
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: these these two core ideals have kind of run up

734
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: against each other. I'm sure they always have, but they have,

735
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, even in recent times. The folks that are

736
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: listening to this have only been in our hunting community

737
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: for a short time. They may you know, maybe where

738
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: the public land um issue. And I think it, you know,

739
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: and and it's relevant now because there are people that um,

740
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, homesteading and the ownership of land is in

741
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: privatization of land is a huge is a huge issue, um.

742
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: And when we when we throw that up against um,

743
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: the public resource of wildlife, it's to this day entangled.

744
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: And I imagine we'll remain tangled on a you know,

745
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: on a micro level. On the macro level, I think

746
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: we all agree with it. But on a micro level,

747
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: when you create a habitat and you pay, you have

748
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 1: it created in a wildlife my you know, migrates are

749
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: are is now in your property. You know, there's got

750
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a in your own mind,

751
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: there has to be a little bit of a pushback

752
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: to the idea that that's a public resource, and there is,

753
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: and that opens up all these new things that had

754
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: to be added, compensation and relocation of wildlife and and

755
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: rightfully so, protecting landowners rights and crops and so on

756
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: and so forth. And yet through all of that confusion

757
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: and conflict, and you know, it's like a it's it's complex.

758
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: Things are constantly giving birth. Right, complex things are constantly

759
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: giving birth. And so one issue arises, you grapple with it,

760
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: but another one spins off from there, and another one

761
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: spins off from there. The model, however, which is important

762
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: in this context because of its structure that it had

763
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: an architecture allows us to work through those problems and

764
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: develop solutions that yet remain within the confines of that model. Right,

765
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: So we didn't say, oh, in the case, let's say

766
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: of agricultural depredation by wildlife, we didn't then turn around

767
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: and say, when that became a significant problem, okay, that's

768
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: an exception to the model. You own them now, because

769
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: that's how we're going to deal with that. We didn't.

770
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: We searched for solutions that allowed us to keep public

771
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: trust and other principles of the model intact. And a

772
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: lot of people do not understand that that the models

773
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,959
Speaker 1: principles were guiding so many things, setting limits on so

774
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: many other policy and institutional decisions that we have found

775
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: our way through and done some amazingly creative things, particularly

776
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: in this country with things like the Farm Bill and

777
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: other things. But the policies were developed in a framework

778
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: that had to consider the architecture of the model. Yeah,

779
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: that's we're back to in the beginning, where you set

780
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: this base, this model's thing to work within, and you

781
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: can and we will continue to shift ourselves around inside

782
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: of that model. Yes, but not um not stirring from

783
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: it is an important important construct from what we're talking

784
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: about here, and for us as individuals and us as

785
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: a collective. Yeah, I think so. So the next one

786
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: and again, these all play well together. Um. The next

787
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: one is elimination of markets for game. I think folks

788
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: probably more familiar with that, just based on you know,

789
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: being common history market hunting. But take us through kind

790
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 1: of the thought process leading to that one. Well, you know,

791
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: there there were, as I said, even long before the

792
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 1: late you know, nineteenth and early twenty centuries, there were

793
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: individual efforts in the part of individual states and even

794
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: colonial governments in some cases to pass laws of restriction,

795
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 1: laws of limitation on how we would harvest wildlife. Um.

796
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: But of course there were so many compelling reasons, practical

797
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: and ideological that led the American colonists to believe that

798
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: it was his her right and indeed his her duty

799
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: practically to dominate the land and to move wildlife off,

800
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 1: and to create the kind of Jeffersonian America that for

801
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: a long time prevailed and still echoes in the American psyche,

802
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: the private family farm, you know, work hard, improve things,

803
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: and and and prosper um. And but despite those pressures

804
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: to stay the course and religious instruction that man shall

805
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: have dominion, which played out a great deal as well.

806
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 1: Matters of faith influenced this approach. Um, it soon began

807
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: to become clear to everyone that this incredible wealth was disappearing.

808
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 1: We had rivers that at previous times, perhaps only decades before,

809
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: had had runs of an adramus fish, you know, such

810
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: a salmon, for example, that literally clogged the waterways. You

811
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: could almost walk across the rivers on their backs. You

812
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: had in the coastal waters flatillas of lobsters that were

813
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: sometimes three and four ft deep during spawning time that

814
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: people could examine and sown. In other words, it just

815
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: became obvious to the average person what was happening. And

816
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: at the same time you then had the growth in

817
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: the eastern cities of you know, elites who had time

818
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: more time to reflect the idea of newspapers bringing arguments

819
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: that they telegraph began to spread the word through wider regions.

820
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: And suddenly you had, you know, a couple of really

821
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: iconic things happened. First of all, you had the passenger pigeon,

822
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: certainly the most numerous bird species on earth at the time.

823
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: Um an animal that would you know, form flocks in

824
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: some cases of a billion, a billion or more, animals

825
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: that would take in some cases three four to five

826
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: days to pass over a single locale so a farm

827
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 1: studying family would see here hours before the birds would

828
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: come the distant thunder of their wing beats, and then

829
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: be plunged into essential darkness for days and reigned upon

830
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: with guano that fell in the tuns from the passage

831
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: of these birds and the din of the wind that

832
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: came from them. These experiences were so strong that they

833
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: entered the world of mysticism, and people believed. In some

834
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: cases fell on their knees and said that they truly

835
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 1: believed this was the end of the world. They could

836
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: not imagine this thing. It was beyond the limits of

837
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: their imagination. And then suddenly, in a relatively short period

838
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: of time, they were gone. And then finally it was reported,

839
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: of course that the last of the kind, Martha, the

840
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: last of her kind, died in the Cincinnati Zoo, and

841
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: they were gone forever. And the second thing I believe

842
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: was the American bison. The slaughter that eventually went from

843
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: simply taking them for product, for the meat and for

844
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: the hides and so on, eventually descended through a combination

845
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: of determined and purposeful strategy by the American government to

846
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 1: starve out the remaining planes Indians who would not subdue

847
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: to American European expansion culminated with a massive rise in

848
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: the marketing of the the pelts and the hides for

849
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 1: machinery purposes in Europe and also for clothing and various

850
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: other things that were interested, but came down to the

851
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: point where highly specialized individuals were essentially killing them just

852
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: for their robes and often just for their tongues, uh,

853
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: and leaving you know, these fields of rotting carcasses gleaming

854
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: white with the fat on their backs as far as

855
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: the eye could see. And of course this was now

856
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: being seen by more people, because of course the railways

857
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: themselves made it possible for those people to do that

858
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: and get their hids back to ports in Missouri or

859
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: other places where they could be shipped and eventually tanned

860
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: and pursuited to Europe. More and more people saw it,

861
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: journalists saw it, and eventually people were simply appalled by

862
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: the scale of the destruction, and that really began to

863
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: set in motion as well as nourished the already existing

864
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: fear and concern that forward thinking people like George Bird Grennell,

865
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: editor of Forest and Stream, the forerunner of Field and Stream,

866
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: of course, editor for almost forty years They're a constant

867
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: agitator for social progress in the in the world of conservation.

868
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: The formation of groups like the Boone and Crockett Club

869
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: in seven and like the Sierra Club some fifteen or

870
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: twenty so years later. Ten years later, UM, you started

871
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: to get the growth of not only UH you know,

872
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: UM magazines and and the social media of the day

873
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: to complain about this. It finally came to the point

874
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: where people said, enough is enough. The incredible thing about that, however,

875
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 1: that a lot of people, even students of the model,

876
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: do not emphasize, or perhaps in some cases do not

877
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: even recognize, is the genius in the approach of this.

878
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: Let us imagine that today we are faced with the

879
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: denuding of wildlife across the United States of America at

880
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: a scale where pronghorn, antelope, whitetailed deer, wood duck, canada geese,

881
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 1: mule deer, elk, black bear, grizzly bear, um wild turkey

882
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 1: named the iconic are visible. Species are just being absolutely

883
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: denuded from from the land. Uh. And we know that

884
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 1: the reason they're being denuded from the land that people

885
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: are killing them. People are hunting them to extinction. It

886
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: would seem logical that The response to that might be, Okay,

887
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: the problem is the killing of them. The problem is

888
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: the hunting of them. Therefore, we are ending all hunting,

889
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: all killing of these animals, at least for a period

890
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: of time, some sort of moratorium at least, it's going

891
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: to take place here. What the architects of the North

892
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: American model did, and there were many of them, we

893
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: refer to Roosevelt and a few others, of course, because

894
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: they did a great job of promoting themselves even while alive.

895
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: But they also did great things. But you know what

896
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: they did, would say, no, we are actually going to

897
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: make the harvesting of them the secret to their recovery.

898
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: This really was, in my view and active genius, the

899
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: introduction well it's it could be seen as the introduction

900
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: of sustainability totally on the model. It was. This is

901
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: where the the this this this idea that non you

902
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: no longer would be able to take an animal and

903
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 1: market its dead body and its parts, its meat, etcetera, etcetera,

904
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: for your own personal gain. So your motivation was not

905
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: for that. Your motivation would have been to engage in

906
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: hunting because of other reasons, cultural, the sportsman's life, etcetera. Etcetera.

907
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: And for food and for your own individual consumption that

908
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: would be okay. But the marketing of dead wildlife essentially

909
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,399
Speaker 1: came to an end. And then, of course we had

910
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: some of the most important pieces of legislation in the

911
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: United States introduced that really gave us laws by which

912
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: to control. Yeah, I mean the Lacy Act, yes, being

913
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: being and the most and absolutely the most influential, and

914
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: that was ninety eight I think around something around there.

915
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: And then the Migratory Bird Act. Yes, it's some work

916
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: on the international level as well. Uh, that opens up

917
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: in Yes, and as a really important thing. You are,

918
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: you open up there as well, because, um, while we

919
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: think about the hunted species hunted for their hides and meat,

920
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: one of the most egregious, virulent, an intensive market hunting

921
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: that was occurring was focused on shore birds and colonial

922
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,479
Speaker 1: nesting birds, and in particular the birds of the long

923
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: feathers as we would call them, the herons and the

924
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: egrets and so on and so forth. At the time

925
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 1: the first decade of the twenty century, a pound of

926
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: egrets feathers was worth more than a pound of gold.

927
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: That's a historical fact, and so massive destruction of breeding

928
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: colonies took place. You know, while the birds were nesting

929
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: was the time to get them together. They were there

930
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: on the trees, it was easy to get up and

931
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: kill them with muzzle loaders and so on and so forth.

932
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: In large numbers of the eggs and chicks would be abandoned,

933
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: Whole colonies would collapse. And while Roosevelt himself, George bird

934
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: Grunel in particular, the man who founded the Audubon Society,

935
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: ultimately railed against this no pun intended, uh. They they

936
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: they also linked up with a very non traditional movement,

937
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: I suppose at the time, which was the women's movement

938
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: that at that time was actively campaigning for the for

939
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: the vote, the suffrage movement. The bird feathers were used

940
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: fundamentally to adorn women's hats. This was a massive fashion craze,

941
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 1: and the more feathers you had, the better, and it

942
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: reached the scale at which the nests themselves were actually

943
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: placed in the hats, and so women of high fashion

944
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: users both in Europe and in the United States, and

945
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: of course we had these unlimited again unlimited in quotation

946
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: marks colonies, and so we were feeding that. What eventually

947
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: destroyed that market, what eventually for that market out of existence,

948
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: a market we couldn't even imagine today, couldn't You could not.

949
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: If somebody's walking around with a nest on their head,

950
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: I'd I'd probably have something to say, yeah, and so,

951
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: But it was the women of society in particular who

952
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: ended that by making it simply unacceptable to come into

953
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: a salon or to a party wearing something like it.

954
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: And so this was one of the first interjections in

955
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: a coordinated way by women in the conservation effort in America,

956
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: and one of the most important things that could have

957
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: possibly have been done, because we would have lost, unquestionably

958
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: as we did the passenger pigeon, many many many species

959
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: of that kind of the wading birds, except for the

960
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: fact that um women can join their condemnation of it

961
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: with the rising, often more patriarchal move in society of

962
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: men's groups, you know, hunting groups that we're working on

963
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: this thing. Yeah, you make a point again, this this

964
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: could go for a long time, this particular one. But

965
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: you make a good point around you know, the women

966
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: who were taking part in this practice being the ones

967
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: to you know, force it out, you know, if you

968
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: if you don't allow it in the party then that

969
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: that it doesn't become desirable anymore than it goes away.

970
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: I think you could very much apply that to a

971
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: lot of things going on in the hunting space right now.

972
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: You certainly we were willing to um or had the

973
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: forethought to eliminate, you know, to treat some things we're

974
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: doing in that manner to you know, to to look

975
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: towards the future and say, if we eliminate this now,

976
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: we're going to be better off in the future. Well,

977
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be the first time that that uh, quietly

978
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: and unexpectedly, Um, you know, women created almost out of nowhere,

979
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: a forceful movement that that really was exceptional because nobody

980
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: was supporting it. You I mean, it wasn't that wasn't

981
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: part of the normal channels in society at the time.

982
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: And yet I mean, they focused on this problem and

983
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: they figured very quickly how to solve it, and they

984
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: weren't waiting around for laws and uh you know, legislation

985
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,959
Speaker 1: to be passed, although that eventually was. They simply made

986
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 1: it unacceptable, right, Yeah, that was It's good learning in there.

987
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: So the next one. Feel like we covered that one.

988
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: So we covered them pretty good. Um, if you don't

989
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: if you guys, a lot of folks, I think, in

990
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: the more modern sense, understand the Lacy Act and and

991
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are charged with federal crimes

992
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: when they do things illegal from state to state. I

993
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: think it's good to think of it in this context.

994
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: And so when folks are, when you guys are thinking

995
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: about the Lacey Acts or the Migratory burd Act, think

996
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: about it um in this context as well as the

997
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: more modern sense of how it's being implemented. Yeah, I mean,

998
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 1: it was a rescue for this problem, right for sure.

999
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: If we didn't have it, then people just escaped to

1000
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: another state. Keep doing um. The next one here, number three,

1001
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: the allocation of wildlife by law. Again similar to number two,

1002
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: but take us kind of through how this became. Well,

1003
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 1: of course, initially there there were no laws governing the

1004
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: taking of wildlife at all. Yeah. Actually, my dad, we're

1005
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: gonna answer something specifically for my dad because people listen

1006
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: to this, he did, and feel free to get this

1007
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: as you explained this. But he asked me like, when

1008
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: was the first game law passed? When the when the

1009
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: first person have to buy a license? And I didn't

1010
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: really know the answer to it well. As I said,

1011
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: there were actually some extremely early game laws and so on,

1012
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:40,479
Speaker 1: even in the colonies. Um that came out limiting during

1013
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: a certain season you couldn't take deer, or you could

1014
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: only take too many, and you know, you couldn't do

1015
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: things during the nesting season, and so on. There was

1016
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: a sprinkling of them, and there weren't few, there was,

1017
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: there's many of them. But of course they didn't really

1018
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: have an impact because of course, while they had a

1019
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: certain level of justice that you know, one also had

1020
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: to understand that very often those laws had to be

1021
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: set aside because people were starving or you know, they

1022
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: didn't find enough Indian corn to steal, or whatever the

1023
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: circumstances might have been, and so um. You know. But um,

1024
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: the idea that while ife would be allocated by law became,

1025
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: you know, a gradually spreading kind of notion because you

1026
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: had in the mostly in the nineteen hundreds, but in

1027
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: some cases earlier than that, but mostly in the nineteen hundreds,

1028
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: you had the growth of course of these kinds of

1029
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: as the cities in the east expanded, you know, these

1030
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: kinds of shooting and hunting clubs, often duck clubs, and

1031
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: so on and so forth, where people would go out

1032
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: in either purchase or lease, you know, significant amounts of

1033
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: land that were often marsh land, you know, places where

1034
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: waterfowler would come and they would form laws for their club.

1035
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: So if Ben and Shane were going to be a

1036
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: part of the Bozeman Waterfowlers Club, then and we would

1037
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: have to agree to abide by the various limits. There'll

1038
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: be no hunting in these seasons, you know, we'd let

1039
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: the duck lay more communal waves, yes, and they were

1040
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:13,360
Speaker 1: really uh, they weren't state statutes at the time. They

1041
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: were more local county or actual club membership kind of

1042
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: voluntary laws if you mean, you know what I mean.

1043
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 1: And but eventually it clearly became necessary after we started

1044
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: to realize that the excessive take could not be tolerated,

1045
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: and we also decided that we would still allow people

1046
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: to harvest wildlife. Then clearly there now had to be limits.

1047
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: We had to prescribe how that could be done. We

1048
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: couldn't just say no more market hunting, but yet you

1049
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: can go and do the following. We had to have

1050
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: a system of prescriptions laws essentially that would say what

1051
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 1: would be appropriate, and they pertain to things such as

1052
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 1: take how many ducks or how many deer seasons of course,

1053
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: when you could do this, and there was always an

1054
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: objection about, you know, killing animals during the breeding season,

1055
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: or killing animals when they had young earlier, or nesting

1056
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. They were kind of

1057
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: common sense approaches, and there were also laws, of course

1058
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: that talked about how you could do this, even in

1059
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 1: the season in which you could do it, which was

1060
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: where many of the notions around fair chase and appropriate

1061
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: take were introduced. And it's important to realize that while

1062
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: many of these things were endemic in a sense to

1063
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: the United States and to Canada, because parallel things were

1064
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 1: going on in the country to the north, um that

1065
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 1: did not mean that there was not European influence on

1066
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: these things. And in fact, if perhaps the most classic

1067
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: example of that is fair chase. Fair chase is not

1068
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: an American creation. Fair chase is not a creation of

1069
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: the Boone and Crockett Club. Fair chase was introduced to

1070
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: America by primarily European writers and European sportsman's and quotation marks,

1071
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 1: including amongst the most famous a man by the name

1072
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: of Frank Forrester, which was his pen name who was

1073
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: a wealthy aristocrat from Europe who came here and talked

1074
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: and wrote a lot about hunting and the the aggressive life,

1075
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: the sportsman's life here and there. He and others were

1076
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: very influential in ideas such as you don't shoot a

1077
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 1: bird on the water, or you know, you would never

1078
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: shoot a bird on its nest, or you know you

1079
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 1: would never you know, run an animal into deep snow

1080
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: to kill it, or you know, just all those kinds

1081
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 1: of basic, reasonable, respectful codified things. So those kinds of

1082
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: things were in the law too. How much you could take,

1083
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 1: when you could take it, and how you could actually

1084
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: take it. These were all pretty early prescriptions, and if

1085
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: you think about it, they remain pretty much the kind

1086
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,439
Speaker 1: of prescriptions that we still have a hundred and twenty later.

1087
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: It's it's it's pretty unbelievable when you think about, like,

1088
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: what are the kinds of things when you say allocation

1089
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: by law? What are the other things that they could

1090
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: be allocated by. We've kind of covered some of them,

1091
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 1: private land ownership, by markets, allocated by like how many

1092
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: how can it so? How much can we stand? Yeah,

1093
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: how much can we stand? You know? It's all these

1094
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: other ways that you might allocate wildlife. We've kind of covered,

1095
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: but now you now when you get into how do

1096
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 1: we you know, provide concretion to some of these ideas,

1097
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: and it's by putting them into law. Um, And it's

1098
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting how how fair chase of those

1099
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,919
Speaker 1: kind of like ethical principles rose out of the need

1100
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: to codify these and make them laws. Yes, that's pretty amazing.

1101
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: And also I think another uh, really significant issue is

1102
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: in today's world there are of course strong movements to

1103
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: try and give more and more autonomy and governance over

1104
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: wildlife used to communities in many parts of the world.

1105
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 1: This is a major thrust for the United Nations, for

1106
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: the world conservation unions, the World Wildlife Funds, you know,

1107
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: the big international NGOs, as well as world governments, the

1108
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 1: EU in particular. And I deal with this in a

1109
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: regular basis in my work with the International Union for

1110
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 1: the Conservation of Nature. This is a very consistent, powerful

1111
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: narrative now in conservation and so what is interesting in

1112
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: this regard as we seek solutions and see great value

1113
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: in devolving wildlife management rights to communities in many many

1114
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:38,160
Speaker 1: parts of the world. Interestingly, in the most capitalistic democratic

1115
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: of nations the United States and pretty close follower in Canada.

1116
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: We we create the most state driven, state operated, state

1117
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 1: directed conservation model, right. Uh. And so the laws of

1118
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 1: how it would be done and the laws of no

1119
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: one owns wildlife all protected or moved away from or

1120
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:11,959
Speaker 1: did not involve the idea of giving over to counties

1121
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: or you know, towns or cities or whatever the right

1122
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: to sort of take over the wildlife in some the director, Yeah,

1123
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: we're saying that this is you're not you don't own

1124
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: this because your proximity doesn't dictate your ownership. But there's

1125
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 1: a major movement around the world. Indeed, it's viewed as

1126
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: one of the ways of saving wildlife in other parts.

1127
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 1: And we were just covering the hunting for the Markhors

1128
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 1: in Pakistan and they they have this this community based

1129
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 1: in services where these these local communities are fighting with

1130
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: each other to get the hunter to come in and

1131
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,560
Speaker 1: give them the money. Um, which seems like a strange,

1132
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: but it's still it's still propelling them to maybe the

1133
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 1: right end. But again another it is but another but

1134
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 1: it is but it is uh, and not always perfect

1135
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 1: with that system either, of course. But I think What

1136
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:04,839
Speaker 1: is really unique is that one of the most robust,

1137
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 1: longest standings certainly and most highly effective conservation mechanisms in

1138
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: the world in Canada and the United States is completely lies,

1139
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 1: completely outside of giving local communities you know, their own

1140
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 1: if you will. And I constantly bring this forward in

1141
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: the discussions that you know, when you talk about this

1142
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 1: as a this community based resource management approach as sort

1143
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:35,679
Speaker 1: of the panacea. Please remember you have these two massive countries, uh,

1144
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, in the you know, between the Pacific and

1145
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:42,480
Speaker 1: the Atlantic that when it ran a very early experiment

1146
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,600
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, been working and it's been working

1147
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: pretty good with it. Yeah. Yeah, that's also interesting to

1148
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: point out. Yeah, and it it goes back to the

1149
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 1: democracy of wildlife and some of those ideas, um that

1150
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: we we really do have a democracy of wildlife and

1151
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 1: and and those more international community based things become aristocracies, um,

1152
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: whether it's by consequence or or how that because they

1153
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: become aristocrats because it's a small number of people funding

1154
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, that are hunting these animals and funding it

1155
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:15,799
Speaker 1: um in a way that just isn't acceptable here, wouldn't

1156
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 1: be acceptable here. But also they don't know that they're

1157
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 1: becoming aristocracies as such. But what is similar to our

1158
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,719
Speaker 1: history is that they have a crisis of wildlife depiction

1159
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: and they have to search for a solution. And we

1160
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: can't transpose hours on them anymore than we can transpose

1161
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 1: as I tell them, there's on ours. I mean, if

1162
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: tomorrow I came back from you know, a major global

1163
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: conference and met with you know, lawmakers in in Ottawa

1164
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 1: and in Washington and said, you know, now, I think

1165
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: what we ought to do is you know, really bring

1166
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 1: community based wildlife management to the foreign count of the

1167
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: United States. I think you, you and your listeners can

1168
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 1: imagine what that would do. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's

1169
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: a hunting, you know, versus values type of idea there.

1170
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: Hunting creates value in that in that international sense, now

1171
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 1: whereas here we don't we have the value of value.

1172
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: It's almost like the value created the privilege of hunting,

1173
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 1: Like the value is is kind of manifested some way

1174
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 1: in the hunting in this model in some way. So

1175
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 1: I think that's that's another great thing to understand. Um.

1176
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: I think like, as you break down this model, I

1177
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 1: think these first three you're kind of like, yeah, pretty

1178
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 1: much it I would have I always would have been like,

1179
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 1: we could stop here, simplifies it, but you guys kept going,

1180
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 1: and I think once you get to the end, you

1181
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 1: start to start to realize kind of why that's it.

1182
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: That is all thanks to Shane Mahoney for this conversation. Obviously,

1183
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 1: this is part one of a two part conversation that

1184
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 1: we've had, remember that, but this part one holds within

1185
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,719
Speaker 1: a few jewels of the history of the North American model,

1186
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 1: And I think if I take away from this this

1187
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: part of the conversation the story of how it was conceived.

1188
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 1: So when we talk about CWD in the modern day,

1189
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: we talk about high fenced captive wildlife operations, and we

1190
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 1: can know that that some of those leanings were built

1191
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 1: into Dr Hilarious Geists thought process around this model when

1192
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,640
Speaker 1: he first wrote it down. Uh, and that's huge. And

1193
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: then also we learned about how Shane helped to market

1194
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: and promote the ideas that he helped to codify with

1195
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: Dr Geist. So a huge piece of the history of

1196
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:29,440
Speaker 1: the hunting world is covered here. In the next episode

1197
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 1: next Tuesday, we're going to cover the rest of the model,

1198
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: which includes a lot a lot of important topics. We're

1199
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 1: going to get into um challenges over time that this

1200
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 1: model has faced. We're gonna get into what the hunting

1201
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 1: world needs to understand about going forward with this model,

1202
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: some of the conflicts that will arise, and really Shane's

1203
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 1: core beliefs as to how the hunting community can carry

1204
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 1: forward in society and maintain its relevance, which is captivating

1205
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: p of conversational history of this podcast. I mean, I

1206
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 1: think it's probably the most interesting stuff that we've recorded

1207
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,560
Speaker 1: in the many hours that we've recorded. So, as you

1208
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: can tell, I'm excited about it, and I wanted to

1209
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 1: cut it up into two pieces for that reason. I

1210
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: think it should be taken in parts and bits and pieces.

1211
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 1: So we will cut it up and give you the

1212
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: next piece this coming Tuesday. Hopefully come back for that.

1213
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: What else? What else? What else? What else? Man? You know,

1214
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:29,400
Speaker 1: we got a lot going on. We're going to be coming.

1215
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to be at the Portland's Live show. That

1216
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 1: Sucker is sold out, so um, if you didn't get

1217
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,839
Speaker 1: your tickets, I'm sorry. But if you did get your tickets,

1218
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,440
Speaker 1: I'll be there and hopefully that adds to your experience.

1219
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 1: Hopefully you can come hang out, come, shake hands, come

1220
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: see us and then have a good laugh with us

1221
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: while during the show. UM that I really enjoyed doing

1222
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,839
Speaker 1: the Media LIVEE podcast and I'm probably that Mr Ronella

1223
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: has allowed me to join for so many I think

1224
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 1: that's it for now and and we will see you

1225
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 1: next week for the continued part two of this conversation

1226
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 1: with Shane Mahoney on the North American model here on

1227
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,599
Speaker 1: the Hunting Collective. Thanks and bye bye