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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to Battleground Podcast. I have an amazing

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Speaker 1: guest today. His name is Mike Uzingo. He's the director

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Speaker 1: of He's the director of for Science Institute. Mike is

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Speaker 1: the real deal. Spent twenty five years in law enforcement

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Speaker 1: on SWAT and one of my buddies, a guy that

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Speaker 1: we had on this program earlier a few months ago,

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Speaker 1: and somebody that served with in Afghanistan. Is nothing but

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Speaker 1: amazing things to say about Mike, and he's like, you

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Speaker 1: gotta get him on the podcast. This guy is when

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Speaker 1: we talk about the evolution of SWAT teams and tactics,

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Speaker 1: this is the guy to talk to. He's nationally renowned. Mike,

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to have you here today. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for making time with us, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate I've really been looking forward to this. Sean,

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Speaker 2: so thank you so much. First II Gay, thank you

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Speaker 2: for what you do. God bless your other and thank

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Speaker 2: you for your service. Thank you for keeping my buddy

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Speaker 2: alive over there or you know, I got a chance

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Speaker 2: to meet him and then work with him and and

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Speaker 2: really find some great work for him, hopefully that he

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Speaker 2: enjoyed in Syracuse while it was there.

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Speaker 1: So he rough around the edges though, isn't he Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In a good way though, any good way.

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Speaker 2: So, and if you don't mind, I just jump right

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Speaker 2: into a story that you may not remember this, but

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Speaker 2: we corresponded before a while ago.

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Speaker 1: I remember, do you.

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Speaker 2: I do, yes, yeah, because it was a long time

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Speaker 2: ago and I was just doing background checks and and

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Speaker 2: Chris was, you know, going through the process of doing

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Speaker 2: this application to get on the team, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know him from anything but the academy, and

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Speaker 2: it was just kind of funny.

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Speaker 3: It's like the people that you meet, you.

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Speaker 2: Don't know their backgrounds when they're coming into this, you know, profession,

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Speaker 2: because you just used to these young kids coming in

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Speaker 2: that you know, they got great hearts and they really

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Speaker 2: want to do their job, and God bless them for

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Speaker 2: wanting to go out and take on this this. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's sometimes very thanks job. But every once in a

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Speaker 2: while I get someone who's kind of got this weird

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Speaker 2: chip on your shoulder, and the culture of law.

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Speaker 3: Enforcement and traditionalism is like, who's this guy? I think

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Speaker 3: he is?

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Speaker 2: Right? He just did he never said anything. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he knew how to play the game, right, But he

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Speaker 2: had this arm. I'm like, who does this guy's deal?

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Speaker 2: And he was just so quiet and humble. You know this,

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Speaker 2: it's just the way he was. And he wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to let you in and let you know anything about

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Speaker 2: him until you figure it out on your own, So

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Speaker 2: you know he was coming on swat. And then I remember,

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Speaker 2: I think I messaged you on like Facebook Messenger or

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Speaker 2: something like that, back before there was a messenger. I'm like, hey,

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Speaker 2: looking for some background on this, and you were like,

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Speaker 2: I will drive to Syracuse to go to the mat

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Speaker 2: for this guy right now. That's how good of a

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Speaker 2: guy you're getting. I was like, okay, enough, said thank you.

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Speaker 1: So I was a little bit worried. I was a

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Speaker 1: little bit worried Mike because the first time I met

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Speaker 1: him as a young officer, he punched me as hard

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Speaker 1: as hard as he could in my solar plexus. So

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure that he was going I wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: that he was gonna thrive and interviewing, interviewing like with

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Speaker 1: with leadership and police departments. You know. Frankly, I was

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Speaker 1: a little bit afraid because I mean not afraid, I

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Speaker 1: mean Chris, I I he is like just the best.

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Speaker 1: I just love that guy. But you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: in the army, and especially in what we were doing

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Speaker 1: in the infantry, you're really the sword and it even

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Speaker 1: though law enforcement in the and in the army are

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Speaker 1: kind of similar, it seems like you have more of

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Speaker 1: a shield role. Maybe not on the swat on the

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Speaker 1: swat team, but the missions just seem a little bit different.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, for sure it is. It's yeah, it's different.

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Speaker 2: I would just say it's different your mission. It can

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Speaker 2: be very confusing on what it is that you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to do. Most of the time. It takes a while

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Speaker 2: to get used to that, especially that transition from.

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Speaker 3: Uh, this is what we need to do.

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Speaker 2: Here we go. You know what does JOCKO say, prioritize

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Speaker 2: and execute.

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Speaker 3: This is what it is. Here's the job task.

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Speaker 2: It's very clear, and I'm sure in military and and

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Speaker 2: I have the experience that it isn't once you get

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Speaker 2: out there, it isn't always clear. But law enforcement, the

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Speaker 2: expectations from you know, society, what they expect from you,

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Speaker 2: what your administration, what your expectations about the job are.

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Speaker 2: You'll question whether you're cut out for it. That that's

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Speaker 2: normal and then you know what it does to your

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Speaker 2: home life, how it changes you to as far as

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Speaker 2: your priorities, and how much you're willing to give of

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Speaker 2: your life into this career because it isn't just a job.

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Speaker 2: It isn't just a career. And much like the military, uh,

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Speaker 2: you never leave it. It's in your blood, it's in

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Speaker 2: your mind, and it becomes part of you until the

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Speaker 2: day you die. So it's a it's much different. I

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Speaker 2: would say, you know, work environment right.

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Speaker 1: Will take Yeah, we'll take. Take me back to the

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Speaker 1: beginning for you, Mike, what all of those things that

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Speaker 1: you just talked about, how you're what the administration expects

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Speaker 1: of you, what the people that you're serving and protecting

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Speaker 1: expect of you, how it affects your family. How did

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Speaker 1: you decide to walk this path early on?

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Speaker 2: You know, I go back showan and I think about it,

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Speaker 2: and you know, after not recruiting but being part of

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Speaker 2: that process for years, we're bringing young folks in and

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to show them these are I want

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Speaker 2: to make these expectations of what this job are very

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Speaker 2: very clear as early as possible, because there's a dissonance

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Speaker 2: there I think between folks that this is what I

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Speaker 2: think being a police officer is about, and this is

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Speaker 2: what it's really about. And if those things are distant,

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Speaker 2: it's a long twenty years plus, right or they just

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Speaker 2: have to turn around and try to find something else

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Speaker 2: to do. My heart and soul was not into law

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Speaker 2: enforcement when I was young. When I went to college.

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Speaker 2: It was afterwards. I honestly searched my brain and try

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Speaker 2: to figure out what it was that put me into

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Speaker 2: this direction. And the best I can come up with

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Speaker 2: is kind of almost hoky. But I had a problem

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Speaker 2: with bullies growing up. I didn't like him, wasn't afraid to

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Speaker 2: go at him, even if the get my butt kicked,

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Speaker 2: which it did most of the time. I didn't win many,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't I wasn't afraid to go after him.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it sounds cheesy a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to think that there was really part of

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Speaker 2: me growing up as if you know, it was just

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Speaker 2: an old school mentality. I grew up an Italian Irish

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Speaker 2: old school traditional My parents, the way they raised me is,

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Speaker 2: you know, you stand up for yourself, stand up for others,

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Speaker 2: and you know, if somebody's picking on you, you stand

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Speaker 2: up for yourself. If someone's picking on someone else, it's

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Speaker 2: your job to stick up for them if they won't.

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Speaker 2: And I just think that maybe that was some of

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Speaker 2: that underlying feeling that I had that made it very

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Speaker 2: natural for me to go in and into this career.

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Speaker 2: Then as I went into it understanding that it was

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Speaker 2: a higher calling than you know, I actually realized when

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Speaker 2: I first started. When you get the feeling of what

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Speaker 2: this job actually entails. There's something called priority of life

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Speaker 2: that we talk about. I helped teach that when I

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Speaker 2: was in the you know, teaching in the academy and

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Speaker 2: helping with new recruits, and I remember listening to that

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Speaker 2: and that made a lot of sense to me when

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Speaker 2: they talked about priorty life. A lot of citizens don't

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Speaker 2: know this when we teach this in our civilian academy,

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Speaker 2: and that's basically where officers need to know when they say,

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Speaker 2: when they take the oath, they say I will do

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Speaker 2: this job. They realize what the priority of life is.

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Speaker 2: And it's like they kind of have like this hierarchy

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Speaker 2: of you know, there's hostages and innocent people's civilians and

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Speaker 2: it kind of breaks down and just before it's the

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Speaker 2: subject that's trying to kill you. That's where you lie.

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Speaker 2: That's right there, and everybody else is stacked up above that,

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Speaker 2: which means you don't get to decide what you're going

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Speaker 2: to do as far as risking your life based on

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Speaker 2: whether you can't put value on human life.

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Speaker 3: In other words, you can't put value on you.

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Speaker 2: May have to run into gunfire knowing that the person

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Speaker 2: that you're running into gunfire for is the person that

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Speaker 2: was in the back seat of your car yesterday under arrest,

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Speaker 2: threatening to rape your family and spitting on the back

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Speaker 2: of your head. And some times officers don't realize that

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Speaker 2: until they get into the academy and we tell them that,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those Yeah, this is what

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Speaker 2: this really means. This is the nobility of policing. To me,

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Speaker 2: it means that no matter what I've dealt with, this

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Speaker 2: person in the path tomorrow, I may you to risk

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Speaker 2: my life for and I'm going to do it. Doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean I'm going to walk like a lamb in the

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Speaker 2: slaughter by no means, but I might have to fight

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Speaker 2: for my life for this person at this moment in time,

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Speaker 2: And to me, that's one of those things that I

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Speaker 2: don't know what about that attracted me to that, but

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Speaker 2: I felt like, if you live your life this way,

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Speaker 2: willing to sacrifice for someone that maybe even hates you,

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Speaker 2: what could be more noble than that? Right? That sounds

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Speaker 2: pretty cool to me. I mean, anybody can do it

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Speaker 2: for someone you love. I mean we'd all run into

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Speaker 2: a burning building for our kids, right, who wouldn't? But

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Speaker 2: would you do it for someone that it despises you

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Speaker 2: if they're in need?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what you need.

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Speaker 2: Every officer out there needs to be able to say

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Speaker 2: yes without hesitation.

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Speaker 1: It certainly sounds like those experience is as a kid,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you were bullied shaped part of who

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Speaker 1: you became and the kind of person that you wanted

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Speaker 1: to be, especially when you talk about the way that

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Speaker 1: your parents raised me and my parents raised me a

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Speaker 1: very similar way. Stand up for yourself, and if you

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Speaker 1: see somebody else that can't stand up for themselves, you

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Speaker 1: have to get involved and do something about it, don't

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Speaker 1: just stand and watch. And that's something to me I

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Speaker 1: as I you know, you see these internet videos that

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Speaker 1: come out of like these fights on trains or in

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Speaker 1: the streets or you know, in schools, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you got one kid getting jumped by four or five

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Speaker 1: others and like a hundred kids standing around just filming

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Speaker 1: with their phones. There's something that's deeply disturbing about that,

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Speaker 1: beyond just the actual, you know, fight that is clearly

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Speaker 1: heavily weighted in one direction. If you've got four or

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Speaker 1: five kids ganging up on one and what about our

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Speaker 1: society is missing? What you just said today, I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to just don't jump right into what is a

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Speaker 1: very difficult question, but there's clearly something, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's something that can be applied to the

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Speaker 1: entire next generation. That's not what I'm saying, but there's

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Speaker 1: clearly something when you see, you know, there's people more

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Speaker 1: content to film than to actually serve and protect and

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Speaker 1: do good things for other people. It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: nerve wracking as to what kind of world that our

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Speaker 1: children will inherit.

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Speaker 2: It is frustrating, it's scary. I always, I mean, try

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Speaker 2: to bring myself peace of mind. It's just like working

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Speaker 2: in the areas of the city that are, you know,

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Speaker 2: very poverty stricken, and it.

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Speaker 3: Seems like we're always dealing.

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Speaker 2: With a lot of the same folks right that are

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Speaker 2: breaking laws and causing issues in the neighborhood. What people

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Speaker 2: don't see are what I call, you know, the silent

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Speaker 2: masses that are out there. There are so many good

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Speaker 2: people in these areas that I've worked that are so

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Speaker 2: riddled with crime and poverty. The quiet they keep the

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Speaker 2: doors closed, they don't want to and they mind their business.

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Speaker 2: They go to work, they do their thing, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's that's something that's out there. The ones that

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Speaker 2: we notice are the ones that hit on social media,

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Speaker 2: and those are just those things that pop up. I

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Speaker 2: still think they're a majority of people out there are

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Speaker 2: willing to do good things and do right when when

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Speaker 2: the time calls. I also think that people do tend

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Speaker 2: to mind their business an awful lot and not you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe so much risk it because of you know, prosecution, ridicule,

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Speaker 2: everything else. It's just what is the risk? What is

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Speaker 2: the gain? But I have to believe in my heart

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Speaker 2: shown that there's still the majority of Americans out there,

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Speaker 2: when when called upon, will do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: It's just that SI.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I have to. I have to believe that.

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Speaker 2: I look around my neighborhood and you know, all the

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Speaker 2: folks that that I meet when in my travels across

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Speaker 2: the nation training and most of the people I meet,

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Speaker 2: they're just quiet, they're not making noise, they're not all

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Speaker 2: over social media. I go to a different times. I

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Speaker 2: go into you know, whatever planet fitness or gym I

248
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Speaker 2: can find, and there's tons of Americans in there, and

249
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Speaker 2: they're fit and they're pumping ways. But the most of

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Speaker 2: the people that really make me negative is when I see,

251
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Speaker 2: you know, the overweight twenty five thirty year old dad

252
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Speaker 2: flip flopping through the airport, and it's like, why does

253
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Speaker 2: that one person stick out? When I go here, I'm

254
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Speaker 2: seeing hundreds of people that are out there grinding every

255
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Speaker 2: day and there's still so my point is, I think

256
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Speaker 2: there's still a lot of great Americans are out there.

257
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Speaker 2: They're just quiet and they mind their business most of

258
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Speaker 2: the time. It's just like everything else on social media,

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Speaker 2: we always see the negative things that pop up, and

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Speaker 2: that's that seems to predominate our concern and rightly so,

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Speaker 2: because we see that, and it does raise concern about

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Speaker 2: what's going on with you know, with America, with young Americans. Now,

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Speaker 2: nobody wants to do this, you know, I do you

264
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Speaker 2: get depressed that they're in this you know, forty five

265
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Speaker 2: degree you know, selective attention down here all the time.

266
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Speaker 2: I think we need to all do something about that.

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Speaker 2: I find myself doing it as well. Not outside of that,

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Speaker 2: but other than the intentional deficit, I still think that

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Speaker 2: most Americans out there are still willing to do the

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Speaker 2: good and do the right thing in the face too.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that answer, you know, and because I think

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Speaker 1: the human mind does have, you know, does tend to

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Speaker 1: focus on the negative at the expense of the positive.

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Speaker 1: You could see, you know, ten great things during the

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Speaker 1: day and one negative and all of a sudden, like

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, oh, I had a crap day because of

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Speaker 1: this one negative thing that I saw. And I guess

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Speaker 1: when you're a police officer, you know, I try to

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Speaker 1: put myself in your shoes. You're a young you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're a rookie cop, and you talk about the effect

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Speaker 1: of the family and the stressures that it has on

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Speaker 1: your life. I gotta believe that you see lots of negative,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like you also see a lot of

285
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Speaker 1: positive things too, And I think it's great to have

286
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,000
Speaker 1: that perspective that hey, there's not as much negativity in

287
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Speaker 1: the world as you know that we see on social media.

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Speaker 1: There are lots of good people in this community. And

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Speaker 1: that's precisely the kind of attitude that that I you know,

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Speaker 1: I think is perfect for law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: It's well, it's not as easy for cops. I will

292
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 2: say that because it is I mean, like average folks

293
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 2: and all that. What you're being sent to every day

294
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 2: is different. But I'll say this much depending on where

295
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 2: you work and the jurisdics in the city and all that,

296
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 2: what type of things that you're facing every day. I

297
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Speaker 2: think one of the biggest challenges to law enforcement mental

298
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Speaker 2: health isn't they usually aren't the officer involved shooting that

299
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Speaker 2: you got involved in. Okay, those those occur, They can occur,

300
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Speaker 2: and you have to deal with them. Whether depending on

301
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 2: the circumstances around it, it can be very challenging for

302
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 2: you and your family. I've been through it a couple

303
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 2: of times. The hardest thing that like really gets at you.

304
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 2: It's not the it's not the big giant blow to

305
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,920
Speaker 2: the chest. It's the death by a thousand cuts, right,

306
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,160
Speaker 2: It's that everyday negative context, negative contexts over and over

307
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 2: and over again. Most of the people when we show up,

308
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 2: they really don't want to see us, right. They spit

309
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Speaker 2: on the ground when they drive down the street in

310
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Speaker 2: the middle of day where I work, You'll look if

311
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 2: you look out your window and watch people walking, you'll

312
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,040
Speaker 2: see people constantly just spitting on the ground as you

313
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Speaker 2: drive by. If you let that bother you, it'll drive

314
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Speaker 2: you crazy. Just remember that's a small percentage of the

315
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 2: people that are doing that. So you have to have

316
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Speaker 2: faith and you have to believe that most people really

317
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Speaker 2: do appreciate you being there. And whether they do or

318
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 2: whether they don't, sean you understand what you need to

319
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,600
Speaker 2: do for the community. They don't need to like you

320
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,760
Speaker 2: for doing it, and you don't need to get their appreciation.

321
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 2: It's one of those things like the pats on the

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00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,800
Speaker 2: back or something like that. It's like they're great, and

323
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Speaker 2: I'm sure you get this with military too. It's like

324
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Speaker 2: I started off, thank you for your service. It's good,

325
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 2: but you know you don't need it. You know why

326
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Speaker 2: you did what you did. We know why we do

327
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Speaker 2: what we do, and it isn't for appreciation. I don't

328
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,960
Speaker 2: need to pull over a car and give them Christmas

329
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,280
Speaker 2: presents to make somebody feel good about what law enforcement does.

330
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Speaker 2: We already do that when we run into gunfire, so

331
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Speaker 2: and and.

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Speaker 3: And you know that's that's one. That's just one example.

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Speaker 2: But we also do it every day when we're calming

334
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 2: domestics and we're spending extra time when we're ordering happy

335
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 2: meals for kids and changing diapers because they haven't been

336
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 2: done in a long time. There's a lot of tests

337
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,280
Speaker 2: that you do because it's the right thing to do

338
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 2: in the moment. And this job, like can say, what

339
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 2: this job does. It provides every cop the opportunities to

340
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 2: go out and go out forthright and do good things

341
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 2: over and over again, even through you know, all the

342
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,480
Speaker 2: criticism that you're going to get before that one error

343
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 2: that you made, that one miss, you know, calculation and

344
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 2: time or reaction time or something like that. All of

345
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,680
Speaker 2: the great things that you've done, you're there for a

346
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,040
Speaker 2: reason and you know it.

347
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 1: So man, m there's a lot of wisdom and the

348
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 1: stuff that you're saying. Was there a moment when you

349
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 1: were just a cop coming up where all of this

350
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 1: stuff sort of hit home? I mean, surely you didn't

351
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 1: walk into the profession with knowing all the stuff that

352
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,680
Speaker 1: you do. So, was there a time and a place

353
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 1: where it's just everything was brought into perspective for you

354
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 1: when those two worlds about like why you do what

355
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 1: you do? How do you describe it? You know, you

356
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,879
Speaker 1: don't want those two things about why you're joining to

357
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: be a cop in the reality of being a cop

358
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 1: to be too far apart for twenty years. I mean,

359
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: when did that? When did those two things come together

360
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: for you? I guess I.

361
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 2: Think for me and for a lot of cops at least,

362
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 2: you know, I got into it for I enjoyed the

363
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,080
Speaker 2: excitement of it. I enjoyed being cast into these situations

364
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,879
Speaker 2: that normal people you may experience once or twice in

365
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 2: a lifetime. You get a lifetime of experiences in one

366
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 2: year in this job, depending on if you're working in

367
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,359
Speaker 2: a you know, an urban environment, whe there's a lot

368
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 2: of calls and or twenty calls backed up on a

369
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,120
Speaker 2: Wednesday for the smell. You know, there's some jurisdictions where

370
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 2: it's like you're not called that much, and hey, great,

371
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,960
Speaker 2: God bless you, and that's the way it's supposed to be, right.

372
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 2: But I think, like the the excitement of it and

373
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,119
Speaker 2: all the novelty and getting to getting engaged with all

374
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,919
Speaker 2: these people from different languages and different cultures than I

375
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 2: had from growing up. I really was just open minded

376
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 2: and excited to go to work every day. I remember

377
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,760
Speaker 2: as a young cop, like getting dressed in my uniform

378
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 2: and I remember getting everything tight, and you know, my

379
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,880
Speaker 2: gig's tight and straight and everything, and I'm like looking at.

380
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,120
Speaker 3: It and I'm like, I can't wait to go in tonight.

381
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:20,920
Speaker 2: Ready, Yeah, we got stuff to do, and it's like

382
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,120
Speaker 2: come on, and you know, I'm like talking to myself,

383
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,919
Speaker 2: like can you believe you get paid to do this?

384
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 2: You know? And it's awesome, and then it becomes work

385
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 2: after a while, especially when you know the overtime is there,

386
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,399
Speaker 2: and that's great because you want to buy the boat

387
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,199
Speaker 2: and whatever it is. But all of a sudden, I

388
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 2: got to pay for the boat, and then there's ordered

389
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 2: over time that you don't even want anymore, and the

390
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,959
Speaker 2: kids comes over. There's stressors that go along with it,

391
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,280
Speaker 2: the change with it. Going from this is really exciting

392
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,720
Speaker 2: work too. I want a deeper understanding of this job

393
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 2: and what this means not just for me but for

394
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 2: my cops and everyone else.

395
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,919
Speaker 3: Is I think Sean.

396
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 2: Is when I became a trainer. When I became a trainer,

397
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 2: that's when I the big you know, aha moment, the

398
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 2: gong went off right, and I really loved training. I

399
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 2: loved not just I love training myself, like I loved

400
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 2: going out and training. That's why I loved SWAT twenty

401
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 2: seven years on SWAT. I loved going out and working

402
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: all the tools and whatever it was tactics. I'm just

403
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 2: a real fan of just learning more about tactics and

404
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 2: changing and not getting hung up on any technique or

405
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 2: any tool, and just.

406
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 3: Always learning and growing.

407
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 2: But when it really hit me what the important thing was,

408
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,360
Speaker 2: I was responsible for all the firearms training in our department,

409
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: and the day I took that on as a full

410
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,479
Speaker 2: time instructor is in charge of that, I was like

411
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,919
Speaker 2: so excited to get the full time training job finally.

412
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 2: And then I remember sitting down and it felt like

413
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,959
Speaker 2: a lead just landed right on my shoulders, and I realized,

414
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 2: you know, my, when blood hits the floor, and it

415
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 2: will it always does, You're gonna have to carry this

416
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 2: no matter what you're doing. Teaching all of this stuff,

417
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: with the use of force and firearms and all these things.

418
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 2: It's on your shoulders, and you get everyone in this

419
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 2: department for two days a year. I get one day

420
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 2: in the spring and one day in the fall to

421
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 2: build some training rosetta stone to pass off to them

422
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,159
Speaker 2: to say this is going to carry you to you and

423
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 2: keep you alive on the street for the next six months.

424
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,719
Speaker 2: It would take me fifty two days to get everyone

425
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: in the department through one day of spring training, same

426
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 2: thing in the fall. So I've got someone for eight

427
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 2: hours on the range, which means about five and a

428
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 2: half hours with lunch and cleaning all that. I've got

429
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 2: five and a half hours to impact this person's life

430
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 2: with this tool and their ability to run this tool

431
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 2: and an environment that they're completely unfamiliar with, which is

432
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 2: their gunfight, as opposed to arrange with paper targets and

433
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 2: a distance and a line and a whistle or whatever.

434
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 2: It is, right, and I have to do this, And

435
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 2: it hit me really hard that if you don't do

436
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 2: your very very best in research and get the most

437
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 2: information that you can to build and create this five

438
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 2: and a half hour golden nugget for them, when blood

439
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: hits the floor, you're going to carry that for the

440
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: rest of your life.

441
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 3: Now, I know that it's not enough time. I know anymore.

442
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 3: We lean on those walls really hard.

443
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean I throw in the towel and

444
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: just go, hey, let's go out and qualify and shoot.

445
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 3: And I know you guys don't like this.

446
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: It's raining today, and it really you know, we'll cut

447
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: the day short because it's Friday. No way that you

448
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 2: could not. You had to bring it every single day

449
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 2: the same energy. And if one thing if you ask

450
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: Chris about is when I was training, you can come

451
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 2: out on a Monday and day one or a Friday

452
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: on the fifty second day, I never had. You couldn't

453
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 2: tell the difference in the energy level and enthusiasm of what.

454
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 3: We were doing and what we were training.

455
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 2: It had to be there because it was selfish of me,

456
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 2: because I didn't want to carry that around with me

457
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. But it was what

458
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 2: you had to do. And that was to me kind

459
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 2: of going from that, you know, the player, to the

460
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 2: mentor mindset and where I started really taking this stuff

461
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,479
Speaker 2: really serious when I took over the academy and now

462
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 2: I'm responsible for turning civilians and the police officers. Then

463
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 2: it took on a whole other level because now we're

464
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: looking at the full scope of I'm a young kid,

465
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: I really want to do this job, want to dedicate

466
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: my life to law enforcement, and I have to provide

467
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: them with this induction, you know, twenty nine weeks I

468
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: think we were up to when I was there of

469
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: training that's going to prepare them to get out into

470
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 2: this world.

471
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 3: And that was an.

472
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: Amazing, exciting challenge that again I stopped looking at how

473
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 2: we used to do things. We always done on that

474
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 2: way the im stealung effects right because someone before me

475
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 2: told me that was the right way to do it,

476
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 2: because it worked for me, because I thought it was

477
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: the best way to do it, and it worked in

478
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 2: this one situation. And started going back to the books

479
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: and really studying this science of how we learn, not

480
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 2: just cognitive skills, but psychomotive skills. And there's a lot

481
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 2: of things that we know in science and research on

482
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 2: pedagogy and psychomotive skills that is very counterintuitive to how

483
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: we think we learn. And that's when I started taking

484
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 2: this job, this career really serious as a clinical profession

485
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: as opposed to just going in and punching in, you know,

486
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: eight to four and out the door, and that's that's

487
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: not the way I took it.

488
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: So, man, how did you get how did you get

489
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: selected to teach? Because man, there's the stuff that you're saying.

490
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, there are moments in my

491
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: life where I just know, at the core of who

492
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: I am that I'm on the right path for me,

493
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: whatever path I was meant to walk. I know when

494
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm on it and i know when I'm off it.

495
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: This sounds like what you were meant to do, like

496
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: what you what you were born to do. So when

497
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: you were selected to train, did you stumble into it?

498
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: Because I mean, I don't know how it works for cops,

499
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: because for sure, do you have to say you wanted it?

500
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I gotta. I gotta put it on

501
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 2: swap for that. So the guys that ended up in

502
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: SWAT were the ones that kind of like made this

503
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: job their life. So and it's not you know when

504
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 2: I say SWAT and there's a lot of people out

505
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,959
Speaker 2: there like, oh yeah, I get it, and knuckle draggers

506
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 2: and all it like cool, I'm a knuckle dragon. I'm

507
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: a knuckle dragon nerd and or, as doctor Lewinsky calls me,

508
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 2: a warrior psychologist, Might it sounds much nicer? I go, yeah,

509
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: I tucked the cops. It's a knuckle dragon nerd. So

510
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: I started off just doing the stuff right, learning the technics,

511
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 2: learning the techniques, testing them, doubting them, questioning them, all

512
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: the tools, you know, whatever, weapon systems that we were using,

513
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: to the point where people are looking at you going, hey, man,

514
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 2: you're really good at that. Do you want to teach it? So,

515
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: in law enforcement, this is how you usually become a trainer.

516
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 2: You find yourself through usually your own time and your

517
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: own work, something that you really love to do, whether

518
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 2: it's grappling or shooting, your communications.

519
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 3: Get whatever it is.

520
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 2: You're doing it on your own time, and you get

521
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: good at it, just like you're learning an instrument or something.

522
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: So for me was mostly guns and tactics.

523
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 3: You get good at.

524
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: A domain, and then eventually, when you're on for you

525
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: have a window. You're too young. You're too young, shut

526
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: up and go away. Then there's the short window where

527
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 2: you're viable, and then it's really short sometimes and then

528
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: you're too old.

529
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: You're too old. We can't send you to schools.

530
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 2: You're gonna be retire in eight years or something, so

531
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 2: we've got that we know, and that if you're lucky,

532
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 2: and which I was, you know on the instructors that

533
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. My

534
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: buddy Tommy Rathbun who was running firearms before that, and

535
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 2: he pulled me in kind of early and like, yeah, kid,

536
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: you got some skills here with this, you know, do

537
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: you want to be an instructor? And that's where that's

538
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: where I jump in with my my real issue with

539
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: how we do this in law enforcement. And I'm speaking

540
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: traditionally across you know, systemically across the nation. Some are

541
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: a lot worse, some are better, and there's pockets of

542
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: places I hear about every day that are doing.

543
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: Some fantastic things.

544
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: But generally speaking, generally speaking, you get really good at

545
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: a domain, somebody apps on the shoulder or you're banging

546
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: on the door saying I want to become an instructor,

547
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: and then they pull it in. And where the issue

548
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: is is when you go from somebody that does something

549
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: well to become an instructor, there's very little, you know,

550
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 2: training there for that. There's mandated training, there's an instructor

551
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 2: development course, which where I am in New York, it's

552
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: two weeks. That's probably the longest there is in the nation,

553
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: So good on New York DCJS for that, But still

554
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 2: that's eighty hours. Most places it's a forty hour course

555
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: which is focused on this is how you build a

556
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: PowerPoint presentation, this is how you do it. Maybe there's

557
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: a teach back of five minute teach back or a

558
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: ten minute ours was forty minutes. Oh my god, what

559
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: am I going to talk about for forty minutes in

560
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: front of a panel of people that are going to

561
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: evaluate me. I get eight hours a day to talk now,

562
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I can't fit enough stuff into the

563
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: same dotage, right, But that's really you know, you'll get

564
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: that course of instructor development and then the usually go

565
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 2: to like a firearms instructor course, which again depending on

566
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: what you're sent to you whether it's the FBI course

567
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: or a lot of other courses out there. But again,

568
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: I've been to these courses and I'm not knocking the

569
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: folks that are putting these on at all.

570
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: I don't mean it.

571
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: We're all fighting the same bear, if you will, But

572
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: what you end up doing is more of the same craft.

573
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: You end up shooting, like in a firearms instructor course,

574
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 2: you'll shoot for ninety percent of the course and then

575
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 2: you'll call one line. There's really no instruction there. There's

576
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: no information in material for you to deep dive on

577
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: to go into how do human beings actually learn? How

578
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: do we learn psychomotive skills? Which means the acquisition phase,

579
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: the retention stage, the recall which in memory, and then

580
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 2: the transfer, which is we need to get is transferring

581
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: what we're learning in the training environment into real context.

582
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: We already have a bigger challenge with that in law

583
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: enforcement and military because real context. Because they like to

584
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: parallel this with sports in foot and in baseball, Well,

585
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: there's rules to these games and everything's set within a

586
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: certain amount of variability within those games, so you can

587
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 2: practice for the games and play the game. The issue

588
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: is with law enforcement and military, we need even more

589
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: of that gameplay because anything can happen. It's such an

590
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: open skill environment out there. We can't you know, we

591
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: can't replicate every situation that you might get into. That's

592
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: when you have to fall back and look at like Leoca,

593
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: what are the distances you know, when we're talking about

594
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: dynamic critical situations what are the distances that we're getting

595
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: in fights? What's going on with the type of weapons used?

596
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: What you're looking at now archetypical gun fights. At least

597
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: if we have only this much training time, should we

598
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: be focused on that? Plus a needs assessment that I've

599
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: done on my own agency to see what's going on there,

600
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: because maybe what's going on in Leoka with all the

601
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: data that comes out of that with law enforcement officers

602
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: killed and assaulted, maybe that isn't reflective of your particular

603
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: agency as anyone doing and needs assessment.

604
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: Based on that. What do they look like? For us?

605
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: Was around vehicles and doorways? What is your training like?

606
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: And do you have vehicles and doorways? A lot of

607
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: times it was no, we have paper in a range

608
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: or we have a mat room. So it can get

609
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'm kind of going down a rabbit hole

610
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: here with Alice, but it gets very complex on how

611
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: you can at least, you know, going back to understanding

612
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: that most instructors will go through a five day instructor

613
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: development course, maybe a five day further developing their own

614
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: skills they're already good at, and then that's it. You're

615
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: an instructor. You've got certificates, you're certified in off you go. Now,

616
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: if you're within a larger agency or mid sized agency

617
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: like me, you can become a full time instructor and

618
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: maybe you have time to dive into your own craft.

619
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: But most of the cops out there come from smaller agencies.

620
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: I mean, there's great, huge departments out there, but most

621
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: cops are part of smaller agencies like I worked at

622
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: Salve and Camillas, these small you know, fifteen people, twenty

623
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: people on there on the department, and your your firearms instructor,

624
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: your grap and all your instructor. That may be one person,

625
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: it may be two people, and every day they're out

626
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: pushing the car, taking calls all day. And then once

627
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: a year or twice a year, it's like, hey, let's

628
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: go to the range. It's time to qualify again. And

629
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: that's the extent of what you get for training. And

630
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: again I'm not blaming it on the trainers. I'm not

631
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: trying to. I'm not trying to. God, I understand the

632
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: challenges there. But when we talk about the culture of

633
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: law enforcement, if we really want to make some changes

634
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: in training, it needs to be done not just in

635
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: time and money and budgets. Of course that's there, but

636
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: it's in developing the trainers that are there. They want

637
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: to do the job and unless they are gone bananas

638
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: like me and give up pretty much ninety percent of

639
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: your home life to sit with a stack of books

640
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: that I've got over here and over here and study

641
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: every day to try to get better at this. It's

642
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: not being provided in any type of formal, structured way

643
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: within the agencies.

644
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: Well, I have to say, I mean there was a

645
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: moment I want to ask you a question about this,

646
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: but there was a moment for me as a young

647
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: platoon leader where find myself because you're right, there's a

648
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: million one scenarios that that could be thrown at you.

649
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: You do the best that you can for train to

650
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: train for each and every one you try to train for,

651
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: especially things that that you for the unknown, but you

652
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: know you get for me in Afghanistan anywhere, there was

653
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: a moment where I arrived and I'm like, holy shit,

654
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: these these there are people out there that are trying

655
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: to kill me, like dead, they want me dead. And

656
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time thinking about that, thinking

657
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: like they don't even know who I am, but they

658
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: want to kill me. Was there a moment for you

659
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: as a young officer on the street like this is

660
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: this is like maybe before you were on SWAT, or

661
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: maybe it was even after you were on SWAT where

662
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: you thought like, holy shit, this is for real. And

663
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, looking back at some of the old TTPs

664
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: that we have, like are we doing the best that

665
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: we can with these TTPs? Do they need to evolve?

666
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: But was there a moment where you're like, holy shit,

667
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: this is for real. I could die doing this.

668
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was more I think seeing the reality of

669
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: what was occurring to victims. I think that was it

670
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: for me, at least in law enforcement, because it wasn't

671
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: that people are always trying to kill us every day,

672
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: but you know, it's it's the fire holding the dead

673
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: baby in your arms that you know. Was there something

674
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: I could have done more? There's there was always feelings

675
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: that could I got it quicker? Could I done something better?

676
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: As far as those oh my god moments with training,

677
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: I realized that there were holes in what we were

678
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: learning and then what we were using on the street.

679
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: It was entirely different what I was using and what

680
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: I was seeing from other officers, our DT instructors that did.

681
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: And most of the times when we're talking about the

682
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: dangerous stuff, it's the tussles in the street. It's the

683
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: street fights. We do that an awful lot. We don't

684
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: get in a lot of shootings, thank god, but they

685
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: do happen. It's the everyday things like that you worry

686
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: about actually dying from a beating. And what I've seen

687
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: on the street is I went through our DT program

688
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: just like everyone else, and the instructors were very skilled

689
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: in what they do, but the amount of time we

690
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: spent in the matt room doing whatever the techniques they

691
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: were showing us with handcuffs and takedowns.

692
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: And all that.

693
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: I grew up. I was a hockey player and a wrestler. No,

694
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 2: I never jerseyed anybody on the street. As soon as

695
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: I got on the street and things started getting into fights,

696
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: I intuitively went back to single leg, double legs and

697
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: the things that I knew from wrestling, and the people

698
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: that didn't have that it was a real mess on

699
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: the street when it came to physicality. So it was

700
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: the techniques that we were learning in the matroom, we're

701
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: not transferring out there into the real world. So that

702
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: was one of those things like, look, this is real

703
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: out here, and people will hurt you. They will hurt

704
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: you very bad. And I've had friends that were hurt,

705
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: you know, real bad doing this job. We've all got

706
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: broken bones and broken noses and all that. But that

707
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: comes with a job.

708
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: You know. I've seen some pretty terrible stuff. But it's

709
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine, Like I don't think it's

710
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine, like jumping a cop. You know,

711
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine never doing something like that. But

712
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: heard stories from Chris and from people like you, or

713
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: it happens a lot, especially in tough areas. When can

714
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: you walk me through a situation where something like that

715
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: would happen to somebody, to a police officer. How does

716
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: it happen? You know, because you hear, we hear every day,

717
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, over the last certainly the eighteen months of

718
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: cops getting hurt badly or sometimes even killed on the

719
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: job and some and sometimes it's not from shooting, so

720
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: it has to be, you know, it got to be

721
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: from other things. So I don't how can you walk

722
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: me through a scenario where you'd be in close quarters

723
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: with somebody, where you'd find yourself on the ground and

724
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: and and when you when you're on the ground, like

725
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: what do you do? What? What a what are the tactics,

726
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: techniques and procedures that you use to survive that get

727
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: out of it? You know, flip the script.

728
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: I would say the most what I try to teach

729
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: and the most important thing like going forward, and then

730
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: I kind of walk it through something is I'll put

731
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: it this way. I was a big how to guy.

732
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: I call them clickety clacks. I thought it was really

733
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: important for us to learn how to work our tools

734
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:09,959
Speaker 2: really well.

735
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 3: And it's the same thing for grappling.

736
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: Know your techniques, know your stuff, your clickity clacks really well.

737
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: If I can.

738
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: I always believe that because I could draw my gun

739
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: out of my holster and get a round out under

740
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: a second. I did this all the time, and it's like,

741
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: I'm the good guys. I can do this quicker than

742
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: anybody that I know. If it comes down to it,

743
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to win. And I think that having cognitive

744
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: dissonance between what a real gun fight looks and they're different, right,

745
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: I've been in a couple they were entirely different, and

746
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: then your abilities. It's this thinking that what I can

747
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: do on the range or in this closed skill environment

748
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: is going to transfer into this open skill. The biggest

749
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: issues that law enforcement, I believe has when it comes

750
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: to these, you know, use of force, whether it's lethal

751
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 2: or just hands on, is that those situations that occur

752
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: that we don't see coming.

753
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 3: It comes with experience and tacit.

754
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: Knowledge, our ability to know what we're when and how

755
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: to look for information. The one thing there's three big

756
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: things I love to teach. When I teach, my goal

757
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: now isn't clickity clacks or how to do techniques, or

758
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: how to run your gun or anything. Those are important,

759
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong one hundred percent, but it's knowing

760
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: what we're when and how to look for information. An

761
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: experienced person in any domain when it comes to action, reaction,

762
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 2: psychomotre skills, whether it's driving, a medical doctor, a surgeon,

763
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: they knowwhere and when to look for information. They have salient,

764
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: very good external focus on what it is that's important.

765
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 2: What am I looking for because that has meaning based

766
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: on my experience, my tacent knowledge about what I need

767
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 2: to do next, or my expectations of what might occur.

768
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: So seeing that punch coming, I always tell people and

769
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: I don't mean us jokingly, and I'm not proud of it,

770
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 2: but what prepared me for those ambush attacks more than

771
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: anything else. And God, I can't believe I want to

772
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: say this, but out there shot I spent in my

773
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 2: later teens in early twenties, me and a couple of

774
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: my buddies, we went through this period of our time

775
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: in our life with our favorite thing to do was

776
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: to go to this before I was a cop, you know,

777
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: I was young, just growing up, drinking ages like eighteen

778
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 2: back then, and we'd go to bars and we'd getting

779
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: bar fights. We used to get in brawls all the time,

780
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 2: were arrestled. We went out and you know, it wasn't

781
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: like we didn't pick on people. It was like we

782
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: found like characters there that gave each other the nod

783
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: or somebody'd give you the old bump and then here

784
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 2: here comes the shot out of nowhere, right, the sucker punch.

785
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 2: And it got so in tune for looking for these

786
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: sucker punches all the time that I believe, and I've

787
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: got pretty good science. So back this up now when

788
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: we look about context cues and schemas and what that

789
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: all was built upon through our experiences, is that I'm

790
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: dealing with subjects or suspects now, and I can get

791
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: a feeling that's really hard to articulate. It's hard to

792
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: put down on a report that I had a feeling

793
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: like this is going south right now and I and

794
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: the thing is, some times, all it means is I

795
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: need to adjust. That doesn't mean that I just go

796
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: ahead and double leg somebody because I felt like they

797
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: might do something. So that's where I think people get confused.

798
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you guys are for you just say

799
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: you know you act first and you know this. No,

800
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: if you're picking up on something, I can adjust. I

801
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: can adjust the way I'm speaking to someone. Maybe it

802
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: means I need to connect with them a little bit

803
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: better the way I communicate with them, and it's going

804
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: to change their actions, or maybe it does I prepare

805
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: for that that you know, that blindside shot, that sucker punch,

806
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 2: which still you know, I still got caught on the job,

807
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: but it was less frequent based on my past experiences.

808
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: So I just think that it's it's when we don't

809
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: see it coming, when we know what the game is,

810
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: when we understand what we're facing, when we're walking into something.

811
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: Most officers that have some experience do a pretty good

812
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: job at reading the play and be able to act

813
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: and react in ways that are really positive. Really good

814
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: rookies have a tough time because they don't know the

815
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: games yet.

816
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: It's kind of like I explained this, like dot to dot.

817
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: I remember the old, the old books, the old dot

818
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: to dot books when I don't know when I was young.

819
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: They're probably way long gone now. But you get these

820
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 2: books and you'd open up a book and there'd be

821
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: a bunch of dots on a page with numbers on them,

822
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 2: and you couldn't tell what anything was. So you got

823
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: your pen and you started it one and you go

824
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: around and you go three, four, five, six, I don't

825
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 2: know what's that. You know, oh, it's an elephant wearing sneakers.

826
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: So but you had to follow the dots and the numbers. Well,

827
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: I've got four daughters. I raised four daughters. They get

828
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: the dot to dot thing with my first daughter, and

829
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: you know, here it is, and it's an elephant with

830
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: sneakers out.

831
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: By the time the fourth one.

832
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: Comes up and she's old enough to do the dot

833
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: to dots, I open up the book and she's looking

834
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: at it. Daddy and I look at it and I go,

835
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 2: I bet you that's an elephant with sneakers on it.

836
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 2: And it's like then and you have them drawn, and

837
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 2: it's like, how did you know that? Well, it's pretty

838
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,479
Speaker 2: much the same thing. You've seen these things before. There's

839
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: dots out there, and you know how to organize them

840
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: in your brain based on all of your experiences. The

841
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 2: rookies don't have this because they get very little scenario

842
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: based training. That's where they show up. So basically, when

843
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: I explained to cops, when rookies get out there, they

844
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: open up the book, they don't even have dots yet,

845
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: not only do if they have numbers to follow, they

846
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: don't even have dots. They scramble. That's why rookies look

847
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: the way they do. And same thing with military when

848
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 2: the first time you hit ground and you process everything

849
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: visually and linearly as opposed to looking at something and

850
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: having an understanding of what I'm dealing with, like your

851
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: NCOs will do you look and I'll see a rookie

852
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: do as they're like this, And I always say they're

853
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 2: like squirrels on crack or something right, and they're like this.

854
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: They're trying to they're trying to find the dots and

855
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: put things together. And then when something occurs, that non

856
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: conscious way of self organizing this information that becomes experience

857
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: and knowledge. Now and it's not always right, and if

858
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: we don't give proper feedback on it, they can one

859
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: experience can really throw them off on what to expect

860
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: next time. So there's a you know, it gets into

861
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: the weeds with this quite a bit. But that's something

862
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: that I think with law enforcement that you know, the

863
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: when you don't see it common, here's why, And I'll

864
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: walk He asked.

865
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: Me to walk it through.

866
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: I'll walk through one that we were tasked with doing

867
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: something I never imagined that we'd be tasked with doing.

868
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: And that kind of threw us off as far as what,

869
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: you know, what what should we do? How do we

870
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: handle this? So we were on a swap call and

871
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: it was a call where and it was a bad call.

872
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: There was a guy in a house and he was

873
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: a guy that never caused any problems before. He wasn't

874
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: a you know, he wasn't a gangster or anything like that.

875
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: He was a you know, middle aged older guy had

876
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: had an issue with his family mentally, whatever was occurring,

877
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 2: shot and executed his son inside the house, shot his

878
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: wife a couple of times. Our police officers rescued her

879
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 2: off a roof, and now SWAT's there. And we ended

880
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: up spending about a day and a half trying to

881
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 2: get this guy out of the house. During that day

882
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: and a half, we had exchanges with him where me

883
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: and a few of my buddies went into a basement

884
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: and he opened up on us down there and we're

885
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: coming back out. And the only reason we didn't get

886
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: hit wasn't because of good tactics are training. We just

887
00:41:59,000 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: didn't get hit.

888
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: Let's put that.

889
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: Recognize that when you recognize it. We got lucky, and

890
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't even you know, rounds were hitting

891
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 2: the cement wall next to our head and we're like, wow,

892
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: you know, that was really close.

893
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: But the change was because.

894
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: It's always like make contact, try to locate, get them

895
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: to comply. You know, if you get into it, get

896
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: into it. But the goal is not we're not there

897
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: to rescue any hostage. It's a barricade. Is to just

898
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: try to bring this to a peaceful resolution. When it

899
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: came to this point where this guy starts pomp shotting

900
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: at us now from the outside there was one, and

901
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: then in second incident where it occurred again where we

902
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: had an exchange through a window, and I'm turning it

903
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: over to command, saying, you know, hey, you know, we

904
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: got snipers out there. They're really good at what they do,

905
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: and I'm an entry guy, so I hate paying them compliments.

906
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: But we have a friendly love for each other, right,

907
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: And I'm like, but I think this is a good

908
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: time to turn those guys on and let them do

909
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: their job, because eventually this guy is gonna pick somebody off.

910
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 3: I'm perimeter.

911
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: Our guys get lazy, they an elbow, our head comes out,

912
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,479
Speaker 2: and we're gonna lose somebody here soon if we don't

913
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: do it.

914
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 3: And I remember, and I'm not and I'm not here.

915
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: To to cachede on the call. And I know the

916
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: command posts. I know how hard these things are. I

917
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: spent time in them, and I don't I'd rather I'd

918
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: better be boots on the ground. I do not like

919
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 2: being in those places. Too many things to consider, and

920
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: things are more cut and dry out there in the field,

921
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: and that's what I like. But at some point it

922
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,959
Speaker 2: basically came back to us, not as a direct order

923
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: that they're not going to allow the snipers to do

924
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: the thing because of whatever reasons they are concerned with.

925
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: So Mike and you guys, you need to go finish this.

926
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: And that's when I kind of it was an unexpected

927
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: thing because now basically we're looking at going into this

928
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: place and finding this guy and ending the situation, which

929
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 2: isn't what we normally do in law enforcement. Right, it's

930
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 2: not a normal it's to go in and of course

931
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 2: still trying to rescue. But now, do I get into

932
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 2: a house where I'm getting close to somebody who's wounded

933
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 2: and armed and call out and give way my position

934
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: after he's already shot at us, Or am I just

935
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: going to try to get this guy anyway I can

936
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 2: get him? It's a different game. We never played that

937
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: game in any scenario. We never played the game of

938
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to hunt you in your house. And that's where,

939
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: like everything we did in training, you know, I'm going

940
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: back and going we never thought we'd be in this

941
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: game unless it was host to rescue, which we train on,

942
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: and this was it didn't fit the mold of the

943
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 2: things that we are already training and tasked to do.

944
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: And here it was I mean it's not like we

945
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: got called out every day, we get a handful of

946
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: call it's a year and all of a sudden, banging,

947
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: we're in one that we've never experienced before. We're in gunfights,

948
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: in angles and offsets of things that we've never experienced before.

949
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: I always assume that when the gunfight starts, I'm just

950
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: going to come up quick and I see my red

951
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: dot and everything, it's going to be over. I remember

952
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 2: feeling angry because I'm in the middle of a gunfight

953
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: and I don't even know where the rounds are coming from.

954
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: That's very frustrating when you feel like I might die

955
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: and I have nothing I can even I can even fight.

956
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: That's and I'm sure you know that feeling right, It's like,

957
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: that's one of those I thought, at least i'd have

958
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: a fighting chance, and I remember, you know, it was

959
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: probably not the memory of the moment, but afterwards it

960
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 2: kind of gets pushed into your memory that, you know,

961
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,439
Speaker 2: just frustrating amby that I didn't train the problem solve

962
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: in the middle of a conflict. I trained to just

963
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: act and react, and I need to get back to

964
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 2: figuring out how to identify problems and problem solved very

965
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: quickly as fast as I can with whatever time is

966
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: available for me and reading my timeline correctly.

967
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: So those are all.

968
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 2: Considerations now when we're building scenarios and we're conducting scenario

969
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 2: based training, that we're looking at all those issues we're

970
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: building it. We're in charge of the stimuli when we're

971
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 2: building scenarios, so to do that, we really need to

972
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: pay attention to what our goals are as opposed to

973
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: just checking boxes.

974
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: So did you how did that scenario play out?

975
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: Well, it was It just got a little bit nasty,

976
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: and we ended up locating the guy down into the

977
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: basement and he was already wounded, and he ended up

978
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: going in and there was a final room where we

979
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: went in, and we ended up going in, me and

980
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 2: another guy and he ends up he's behind like a

981
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: barricade and he ends up shooting in return fire. And

982
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 2: then after we peel him out everything was over and

983
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: realized that his last shot that hit the wall next

984
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: to my leg went.

985
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 3: Through his own head that we didn't even see.

986
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: So it was one of those and then you know,

987
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: my feelings after we're like, I don't you know, I

988
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: don't feel bad about our what we did or what

989
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: we had to do with it. And my frustration was like,

990
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: why would you try to shoot? If you're just angry

991
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 2: at yourself and for what you did and all your

992
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: turmol in your life? Why did you want to take

993
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 2: me and my friends away from our families in your

994
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: own behavior with that?

995
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 3: If you're going to do that, why would you know?

996
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: So those are questions, rhetorical questions that I run around

997
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: in my head, And of course the obvious is could

998
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: I done something different?

999
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 3: Would I have done something different?

1000
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: Yes, obviously we were up for three three hours before

1001
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: we decided no sleep, no food. We're up and went

1002
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: in thirty three hours straight, no sleep in the cold

1003
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: when we went into that you know that last one.

1004
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: So now I know about the way the brain works

1005
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 2: and decision making process and all that lack of sleep,

1006
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh my god. You know, the science

1007
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: tells us we were like blown a two oh something

1008
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: if you want to quate that.

1009
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 3: You know, as far as our decision making, the way

1010
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 3: we're you.

1011
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 2: Know, processing and problem solving, all of us were just

1012
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 2: you know, afraid not I remember going, let's hurry up

1013
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 2: and go in there. I'm tired, I'm cold, I don't

1014
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 2: even care anymore. Let's just go and get this done.

1015
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: I remember thinking that, and then afterwards I'm like, God, dude,

1016
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: fatigue makes whimps on all of us, doesn't it.

1017
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: You know, it's absolutely crazy. I gotta ask what happened, Like,

1018
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: how did this guy would said no criminal record? How

1019
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: did he find himself in a situation like that?

1020
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 2: Last understand it is he was he made it through

1021
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: the killing fields under pop from Cambodia, came to the

1022
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: United States. Neighbors loved him, did a little side job

1023
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 2: doing laundry in their basement, and all that. Very old school,

1024
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: traditional Cambodian. And the way I understood it, and I

1025
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: never fact checked it too much, but it was pretty

1026
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: solid at the time, was that the son came home

1027
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: and said that he fell in love with a girl

1028
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: from a local girl and he was already had an

1029
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: arranged marriage set up with, you know, a girl from Cambodia.

1030
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 2: And he said, no, I'm not doing that, dad, I'm

1031
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: marrying this girl and not her. And the mother took

1032
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: the son's side, and he went into the back room

1033
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 2: and got a rifle, came out, shot him in the

1034
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 2: head at the table. Shot the wife. A couple of

1035
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: times she jumped out a window onto a hip roof

1036
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 2: and our officers came and rescued her and got her

1037
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: to the hospital. Oh my god, only to turn around

1038
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 2: and sue us later.

1039
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1040
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't go too far, but yeah, yeah, it

1041
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 3: was one of that part. For the course.

1042
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: I there's a lot of gas on house though, So

1043
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: those just want.

1044
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 3: To call, you know.

1045
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: Today, I want to talk about something that's been on

1046
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: the minds of many Americans lately, energy and dependence. With

1047
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: rising energy prices and geopolitical tensions, it's more important than

1048
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: ever for our country to be self sufficient when it

1049
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: comes to our energy needs. And that's where Deep Well

1050
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: Services comes in. They're a company that's not only dedicated

1051
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: to delivering top not services to the oil and gas industry,

1052
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: but they're also committed to the goal of American energy independence.

1053
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: With their cutting edge technology and expert team of professionals,

1054
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: they're helping to unlock new sources of domestic energy and

1055
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: reduce our dependence on foreign oil. But that's not all.

1056
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: Deep Well Services is also a great American company that's

1057
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: hiring like crazy right now, and they're not just looking

1058
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: for anyone if they're seeking out talented and hard working

1059
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: individuals who want to join their team and make a difference,

1060
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 1: and with competitive salaries and benefits, it's a great opportunity

1061
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: to not only work for a patriotic company, but also

1062
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: build a rewarding career in the energy sector. So if

1063
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: you're looking for a job with purpose and meaning, or

1064
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: if you're simply passionate about American energy independence, then you

1065
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: should definitely check out deep Well Services. Visit their website

1066
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 1: at Deepwellservices dot com to learn more about their company

1067
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: and career opportunities. Which is one call. I mean, my god,

1068
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: how many of these calls did you have to go

1069
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: through in your career?

1070
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: Well, this, I don't know. As far as the swap calls,

1071
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: that was probably one of the bigger ones where it

1072
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: was elongate. You know, two days of really trying to

1073
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: use gas and all the tools we had and obviously

1074
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: negotiators just talking and talking and translators and all that

1075
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: trying to get this come to a peaceful resolution, and

1076
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 2: we failed at it.

1077
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 3: You know, I consider it.

1078
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: You know, we all survived and he didn't, but I still,

1079
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 2: you know, there's things to learn, and definitely if somebody

1080
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 2: passed and we couldn't get them out with all of

1081
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 2: our tools.

1082
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 3: It's a failure point, no doubt.

1083
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean were call out for mostly barricade

1084
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: type callouts and high ressearch warrants. We did a lot

1085
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 2: of other ones. We did a lot of other search

1086
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: warrants that were more drug related. Search warrants on our

1087
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 2: drug unit side, we usually did between one hundred and

1088
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: fifty to two hundred a year. I did that for

1089
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 2: nineteen years, So nineteen years of that.

1090
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's two thirds of the year

1091
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:46,919
Speaker 1: you're getting called out.

1092
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, well those are more drug related ones. So that's

1093
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 2: that's just like our drug unit search warrants. So we

1094
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: had to our drug unit team and then our SWAT team.

1095
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: We didn't get as many call outs for that, so

1096
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 2: it was high risk drugs mostly barricades. Barricades were the

1097
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 2: ones that we we liked because they were I don't

1098
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: say we liked. You know, it's great if you never

1099
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 2: get called out, but when we get that there was usually.

1100
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: The thing we liked about the barricade stuff is there

1101
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: was time that you could take in information. You could

1102
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 2: have an analytical approach to most of your decision making

1103
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: on them, and you could use all of the things

1104
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 2: and resources that we had. Usually it's time and resources right,

1105
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: risk versus time over risk versus need plus time over resource,

1106
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And I always use that one because

1107
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: most of the time we had really successful resolutions, and

1108
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of them we'd see them again

1109
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: because there are mental health issues or things like that.

1110
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 2: But but they were we liked them because they were

1111
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 2: challenging and if we if we were reading the plays

1112
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 2: right and we're listening to what the people, you know,

1113
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: what the person needed and what we could provide to

1114
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: get some type of you know, agreement and some de

1115
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 2: escalation and tried to get them come down. It felt good,

1116
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: you know, it felt good to get them to come

1117
00:52:58,560 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 2: out resolve it.

1118
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: And you know, the people come out and sometimes.

1119
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 2: They apologize and sorry, you know, and it's like it's okay,

1120
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 2: don't do it again, please.

1121
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: Here, Mike, Mike, So okay, So everything you said, you

1122
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 1: said that it was a failure point that you couldn't

1123
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: get that guy out that shot his son and shot

1124
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: his wife. You couldn't get him out alive. You think

1125
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: that's a failure point for you.

1126
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 3: I just think that, and I don't think of it

1127
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: like a real negative way.

1128
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: I just know what you mean.

1129
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: I just used to learn.

1130
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: I'll always run those roots on the feedback, like what

1131
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 2: could we have done different? What if we were able

1132
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 2: to get sleep and get some other group in there

1133
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 2: that a fresh mind on this. Uh. And again it's

1134
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: all hindsight bias, all benefit of hindsight. But you know,

1135
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: if you're not going and doing good AARs on it,

1136
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:49,439
Speaker 2: then you're not learning, right.

1137
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 3: So yeah, I.

1138
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 2: Mean it's all I look at it as a positive

1139
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: way to look at it. So error is good, loss

1140
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 2: of life isn't. But that's the way it worked out.

1141
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: We did a lot of things right, but there were

1142
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 2: other things. There may have been moments where maybe we

1143
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: could have done something, but we were in a decision

1144
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 2: mode at the command post or something. And again, this

1145
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 2: guy may have just I think back at it now,

1146
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 2: I don't that was his decision. I don't think he

1147
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: was ever gonna come out alive. But again, if there was,

1148
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 2: maybe he didn't even know it. There was a way

1149
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: that we could have we could have done it successfully.

1150
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 1: You know, well, I'm Mike. You worked your ass off

1151
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: for two days trying to get this guy out of

1152
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,919
Speaker 1: there alive. There was a clear escalation of force. It's

1153
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: just clearly there's had some sort of battle drill to Okay,

1154
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 1: we're gonna try this, we're gonna try this, we're gonna

1155
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 1: try this, and then okay, sniper's got mixed. But now

1156
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: it's time to use lethal force. So I have to

1157
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: ask you, So this FBI raid on this guy out

1158
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: in Utah. Now I'm again hindsight bias and all that stuff.

1159
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: This is not I'm not casting dispersions on any of

1160
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: this stuff. But I found out about this from my

1161
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: buddies all around the country who were on swat team

1162
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: that were just texting me over and over again, like

1163
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: what the hell is this? And now does this guy

1164
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: out in Utah said terrible terrible things about the president?

1165
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: I don't care Democrat, Republican. You should not do that

1166
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's crazy, said some really terrible stuff

1167
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 1: swat team. I guess they show up at this guy's

1168
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 1: house with twenty FBI swat guys and the guy gets shot.

1169
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: They do some pre dawn raid on the guy. Now,

1170
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,439
Speaker 1: now look again like hindsight being twenty twenty, I don't

1171
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: know what the scenario was on the ground. I just

1172
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: think that this is me. If I were planning something

1173
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: like that, I'd say, Okay, guys between seventy and seventy

1174
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: five years old, he walks with a cane, he's overweight.

1175
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 1: I wonder if they had already knocked on his door once,

1176
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: so he clearly had an interaction with him. Is there

1177
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: a better way if you thought he was going to

1178
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: be a threat that necessitated a pre dawn raid with

1179
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: twenty people, maybe you interdicted a grocery store, or maybe

1180
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: you wait till he's out in the front porch drinking

1181
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee, and maybe you take him then.

1182
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know knowing what we know, which

1183
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: is again not a whole lot, because the situation is

1184
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,359
Speaker 1: developing and body cam, I don't even know if they

1185
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: were wearing body cam. I don't know what the hell

1186
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 1: happened there. I mean, because you talked about a familiar

1187
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: point after try him with the guy that shot his

1188
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: wife and executed his son, and you worked your ass

1189
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: off to get the guy out alive, and then you

1190
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: see something like this, you go in there. I mean, look,

1191
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: I don't know how I if if someone kicks in

1192
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: my door at six am, and I haven't done anything wrong. Like,

1193
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: you're a civilian, you got a right to defend yourself

1194
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: in your own home, right, and a cop sees a gun,

1195
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: I'm getting I'd get taken out, right. I mean, you

1196
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: see what I mean.

1197
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to break my door down at

1198
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: six am. It's gonna be not good for anyone, including me. Yeah.

1199
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not familiar with it. John, the one out

1200
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 3: in Utah yet.

1201
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: My head's been in another job that we're working on lately,

1202
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 2: so I haven't even had time to get into the

1203
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: news too much. But I can say that you did

1204
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: say one thing that, did you know sound familiar to me?

1205
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: But like, I'm sure that they have a threat assessment

1206
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: that they have to go through when they're doing their

1207
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 2: ops plans, right their OP boards and everything. So I'm

1208
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: sure they do. I don't know what exactly they're deep,

1209
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: they're all pretty similar of what it is, and then

1210
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: drive the tactics off of that. So and I was

1211
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: responsible for doing a lot of those things and designing

1212
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: the ops plans, which one of my favorite things to

1213
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: do is do a foundational opps plan and then I

1214
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: have my guys like Chris and my main entry guys

1215
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: come in and just get after it like vultures, pick

1216
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 2: it apart, tear it, tear it. Let's let's make it good.

1217
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 2: And and so we'd always have those, you know, when

1218
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 2: we'd always you know, risk versus need over time plus resources.

1219
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 2: All right, when you plan on doing this, Mike, you

1220
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 2: got a guy coming in on the second floor, and

1221
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: why why are we putting the guy into that exposing him?

1222
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: And then you know, if I didn't have a really

1223
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 2: good reason, which it was like because this, this and

1224
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: this like all right, you know, Roger, that good to go,

1225
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: but there's checks and balances there. But you did say

1226
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 2: something about the coffee shop and all that. For us,

1227
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: it was it was really easy. We always look at

1228
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 2: it as a progression.

1229
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 3: I didn't make this up.

1230
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: It was either open air mobile or stronghold, so that

1231
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 2: we always want that that roote, you know, So open

1232
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: air was always the safest mobile is the next which

1233
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 2: that's the babel, depending on what they do in a vehicle.

1234
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 2: But we had ways of doing things that for officer

1235
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 2: safety as well without endangering the public because again parorty

1236
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 2: like and then stronghold is the last I mean the

1237
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: last option. The last thing you want to do is

1238
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: punch a door and start putting people into an unknown. Right,

1239
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: That's like, this is my stronghold. I know every square

1240
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: inch of it, and I know you know, depending on

1241
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 2: what people from the outside, they're going into an unknown

1242
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 2: for the most part, even with even with intel even

1243
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 2: more like inform an intel, you still don't know what

1244
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: one hundred percent what's going to be there when you

1245
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 2: when you pop that door open. So that was always

1246
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: the last option, was to punch the door and going

1247
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 2: through struggle open airs were great.

1248
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:06,919
Speaker 3: Now I'll say this much too, and I know nothing

1249
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 3: about their operation.

1250
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, I'm not trying to put you

1251
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: in a tough spot. Yes, I'm going to tell you

1252
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: to do that.

1253
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: I'm just going like standard like police swat stuff, is

1254
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 2: that there are things that occur that sometimes I'd argue

1255
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 2: it I understood, but we'd be doing like, hey, you know,

1256
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 2: it's the end of this multi jurisdictional drug investigation and

1257
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 2: we're taking.

1258
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 3: All the bad guys down.

1259
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 2: We're going to show up at three in the morning

1260
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 2: and we're all getting together and there's like fifteen different

1261
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 2: agencies from local, state, and federal. We've got all these

1262
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 2: different teams and we're going to hit fifteen houses and

1263
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: then this one and two. Swak's doing one, two and three,

1264
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: and the drug units are doing all these other houses

1265
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 2: because the lower priority those are common. And I remember thinking, okay,

1266
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 2: we're hitting this place. It's oh five hundred, you know,

1267
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 2: that's when everything's getting kicked off. We're all going to

1268
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: go simultaneously, so phone's don't crossing and people are dumping

1269
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,479
Speaker 2: dope and people aren't taking off and stuff, and it's like, okay,

1270
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 2: I got pro I got a problem. Because the reason

1271
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 2: that SWAT's getting called in is because this guy's got you.

1272
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 3: Know, violent history.

1273
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: We know he's got guns, we've got informance, we know

1274
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 2: he has weapons in the house, and that's his place.

1275
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 2: But instead of going on our terms, we're gonna just

1276
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 2: go at five o'clock in the morning because that's when

1277
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: everybody else is going. And the you know, commanders would

1278
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,439
Speaker 2: get around and be like, this is be us man.

1279
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: We are going in and look we're not going dynamic

1280
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: on this. We're not punching the door. We're gonna go

1281
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 2: non dynamic. We're gonna basically like it's not knock on top.

1282
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 2: But there's other things that we do where we're going

1283
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: up and locking the outside down and then coming up

1284
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 2: and get making contact and tell him to come out,

1285
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 2: which means go ahead and flush your dope. Nobody's gonna

1286
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 2: die over a kilo or whatever it is, you know,

1287
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 2: right right, But that would really anger you know, it

1288
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 2: would be upsetting too. I don't say anger, they you know,

1289
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 2: the investigating officers that especially if it's state charges, If

1290
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 2: you don't get the dope, the charges aren't going to

1291
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 2: be very well. So it's like, no, we really need

1292
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: to get it. So there are these forces that will

1293
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: push a that I want to push, you know, the

1294
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 2: tactical component to go in dynamic as opposed to what

1295
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: we would normally do, which would not be that way.

1296
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 3: We'd wait.

1297
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 2: But the other part is as far as open air

1298
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: is if we really need to get in the house

1299
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,479
Speaker 2: and there's multiple people people in the house, once somebody leaves,

1300
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: if we pick them off, then we're on the timeline

1301
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: for the house and then I'll end us setting up

1302
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 2: us for a stronghold ring.

1303
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 3: So and again I'm just talking like general be beer

1304
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 3: in general.

1305
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, most law.

1306
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 3: Enforcement pretty much follows.

1307
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: It's not anything that insightful really that you wouldn't find

1308
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: him any you know, base Well, I won a one

1309
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: basic spot.

1310
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: I was asking my SWAT buddies, like, hey, what's your

1311
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: take on all this? Like they're the ones sending it

1312
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: to me, and they their their response was almost universally,

1313
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: would you be proud of how this raid ended if

1314
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 1: you were the if you were the commander on the ground.

1315
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: And I had to say, probably not. And then now

1316
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: as information and I know you don't know a whole

1317
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: lot about it, but as information starts to trickle out,

1318
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: it turns out this guy was like I mean, he

1319
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 1: could barely Breathe was like volunteering in his church. Maybe

1320
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: he brings and just a gun when they entered, but

1321
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 1: he was an old veteran. So I mean, there's just

1322
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: so many variables. Man, I don't empathize with you. It's

1323
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: it's such a difficult job, and.

1324
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 3: It is and you don't know once you open that can.

1325
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 3: It's like I had.

1326
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 2: I had a situation on a raid once where we're

1327
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 2: going in and it's it's a drug raid, so it's

1328
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 2: everyday stuff for us, and hit the door we go

1329
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 2: in and a couple of big guys in there. I

1330
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 2: remember one took a swing at me, punched the door,

1331
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: and I was the first went in and he like

1332
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: called off to take and he would have taken. I

1333
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 2: still would have been knocked out from that punch. And

1334
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 2: it was like ten years ago. I mean he had

1335
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: and I can see in his eyes as he's coming around,

1336
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: he's looking at me with like, oh, it's the police.

1337
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 3: He really reacted. He had no idea.

1338
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 2: He didn't go on the ground, and I'm like, it's cool, man.

1339
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: It was like I read that like in that moment,

1340
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 2: he just got startled, scared and he swung. I secure

1341
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 2: the guy and I see a stairwell going up from

1342
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 2: the living room and I go, there's a second floor.

1343
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 2: I got stairwell, you know it's so I popped back

1344
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 2: out and I turned the corner just to clear up

1345
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: the stairwell.

1346
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 3: And just like that.

1347
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: This is when and I tell the story when I

1348
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 2: teach a little bit, because as when you talk about

1349
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 2: experience and schema and tacit knowledge. I grew up hunting.

1350
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: I grew up My first gun was our twenty gauge H.

1351
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 3: I still have it.

1352
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: H and r single shot twenty gauge shotgun. And I'm

1353
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: a gun guy, so I know what I see. And

1354
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: I remember turning the corner, and my memory was a

1355
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: flash picture. There was an elderly male standing on his

1356
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 2: way down the stairs and he's holding a shotgun. I

1357
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 2: see the barrel coming right at me. Now, the rookie me,

1358
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 2: with no experience or anything could have been would have

1359
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 2: justifiably just put rounds on at a meeting. I'm not

1360
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 2: a drug rate. I got a guy coming downstairs with

1361
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 2: a shotgun. My first picture what I saw when I

1362
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 2: looked was I saw the gun was open.

1363
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 3: It thought it was a single shot. It was opened.

1364
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 2: I was open about that, and I know I didn't

1365
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 2: have time to analyze that. Yeah, there was one in there.

1366
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 2: All he had to do was snap up and bang.

1367
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: And that's that's a quarter to a half. It's a

1368
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: half acting the best if he's fast. But I remember

1369
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 2: seeing that and seeing his face was of shock, like

1370
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 2: he was afraid, definitely afraid like this, and he was

1371
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 2: barely holding the gun like this. And that's when I

1372
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 2: just turned in to drop the gun, drop the gun,

1373
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 2: and then it dropped. But it was a moment where

1374
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 2: I saw what I saw, and that could have been

1375
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: a lethal shooting immediately and justifiable and everything else, because

1376
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: I got a gun point right at my head about

1377
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, four feet away from me. But I picked

1378
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 2: up I was lucky enough to pick up on some

1379
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 2: visual information that told me not right, something's out right.

1380
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 2: It wasn't a typical it wasn't and it was a

1381
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 2: flash picture. So where there was no time for analysis,

1382
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 2: I had enough to see what I needed to see

1383
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 2: based on my experience, my schema. It had meaning to

1384
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,919
Speaker 2: me in a moment. And that's where the decision making

1385
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 2: process falls into the category what doctor Klein calls recognition

1386
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 2: prime decision making or doctor connman, if you will, system

1387
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 2: one decision making where I see something and you identify

1388
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 2: it quickly and then you react and then then as

1389
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 2: time allows, you can go into some type of analysis.

1390
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 2: So there's things that once you get into a situation

1391
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 2: and you're reading, you know, all I'm saying is you're

1392
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 2: already in the house, and now all of a sudden

1393
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 2: this occurs.

1394
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 3: What are you seeing?

1395
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 2: Is there? An analysis usually is in time. Luckily, I

1396
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 2: always say luckily, I grew up round guns and I

1397
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 2: saw what I saw, and it allowed me to take

1398
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: a moment to see more and then I was able

1399
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 2: to get back and make the commands and how it happens,

1400
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 2: it worked out.

1401
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm blown away by this. And the way that

1402
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 1: you describe stuff is I have to say, man, it

1403
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 1: is kind of so I think about my evolution as

1404
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: a as a combat leader and just being in ambushes

1405
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 1: and getting shot, and again it's a different thing because

1406
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 1: people are trying to kill you. You're trying to kill them,

1407
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: like that's just that. It's it's it's it's almost simpler

1408
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways in the infantry, and it's

1409
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: a terrible tough situation in the infantry, and it's but

1410
01:05:55,680 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: it's there's there's just like less variables, less less collateral image.

1411
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: In the mountains of Afghanistan, somebody's trying to kill you,

1412
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: and if you don't kill them first, you could be

1413
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 1: you could be the one dead. So it's but there

1414
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: was an evolution for me where And I'm just telling

1415
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: you this because as you describe it in clinical scientific terms,

1416
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: I kind of experienced this as a young lieutenant, like

1417
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: doing this looking up and around, trying to look at

1418
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and it got to a point after

1419
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: six seven months and hundreds of firefights, it was just

1420
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: like the moment it would almost like collidi scope around

1421
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: you and I was just I just understood what was

1422
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: around me, Like it's like I saw it. It was there,

1423
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: it was part of my consciousness. It was either a

1424
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: threat or it wasn't. And it almost got to a

1425
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: point where I talk to some of my squad leaders

1426
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: and stuff and just say, it's like stand strong in

1427
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: that kaleidoscope and just be aware of what's going on

1428
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: around you. Whereas you're right, the guys that come in,

1429
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: they're super green that haven't been there in a while.

1430
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: They're like looking all around, look at their weapons system,

1431
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: checking their nods, like looking up at the sky. I mean,

1432
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 1: it's just looking for IEDs. It's just kind of crazy

1433
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 1: to me that you've broken this down to a science.

1434
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a deep end to it. Shown it gets better.

1435
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 2: It's so good, and what you're saying, it makes sense.

1436
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 2: You have that moment where now there's now once you

1437
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 2: get into that moment where you start seeing the play pattern,

1438
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 2: like you're you're looking and you're seeing and you have

1439
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 2: this understanding of what's occurring and what you need to do.

1440
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 2: That's a good feeling. It's like that law enforcement. Usually

1441
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 2: depending on your agency, it might take a year two

1442
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 2: years on the job before you get this mindset. And

1443
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 2: then there can be this bifurcation in the mindset. And

1444
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 2: here's the bifurcation in the mindset. The one mindset can

1445
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 2: be when the challenge comes up and here comes the information.

1446
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 2: Oh no, oh my god, what am I going to do?

1447
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this, or this is a challenge. Boys,

1448
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 2: let's go, or you know, guys, let's go. This is

1449
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 2: what do you got? Bring it?

1450
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 3: Bring it.

1451
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 2: So the two mindsets are really important, and not that

1452
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 2: I like say mindset is everything, but it's not.

1453
01:07:58,800 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 3: But it's it's important.

1454
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 2: Is that how you face these things is going to

1455
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 2: gear where your attention goes. Because when I'm gearing my

1456
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:09,920
Speaker 2: attention towards a challenge, I'm staying externally focused. And this

1457
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 2: is huge for me. I'm staying externally focused on processing information.

1458
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 2: When I'm doing that, my heart rate is lower. Everything is,

1459
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 2: my body is functioning. I'm processing things in real time

1460
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 2: for when they start getting into action sequences, things get

1461
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 2: critical and dynamic firefight. It starts occurring. I'm still picking

1462
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 2: up and I'm processing. I'm making decisions based off of

1463
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 2: real time events that are occurring. When my mindset is,

1464
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 2: oh shit, I don't own my When the thought I

1465
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 2: comes in, I don't, I'm feeling, oh my god, what

1466
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 2: am I going to do? What am I gonna do

1467
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: for my guys? All that the I feeling. Think of

1468
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 2: I as internal focus. And when we have an internal

1469
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 2: focus of attention, when we're feeling about what's going on

1470
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 2: as opposed acting on what's going on in processing, that

1471
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 2: usually works against us when we're talking about dealing with

1472
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 2: dynamic situations.

1473
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 1: Geez man, this is g I mean, listen, so this

1474
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: is crazy to me as you're talking, like so much

1475
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 1: of this evolution in me is like coming to the fore.

1476
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 1: And I haven't you know, thought about this stuff in

1477
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 1: a decade. But there were times where you're right where

1478
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 1: you're like, what do I do? How do I handle this?

1479
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: What's And when you're thinking about that, it's just it's

1480
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 1: not a not a good place to be. And I remember,

1481
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: I remember that there was this one moment and this

1482
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 1: is stuck with me all these years, and it's it's

1483
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: kind of like it's not like one of the more hey,

1484
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna kill zone, what do we do. It didn't

1485
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 1: make it into outlaw Patune or anything like that, but

1486
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: it was early on in my deployment. I think we

1487
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: had like one firefight and the enemy had like I

1488
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: mean they had they had hit us with rockets or

1489
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 1: mortars or whatever, but nothing like super bad. But there

1490
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: was always the risk of improvised explosive devices or even

1491
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 1: suicide bombers, which is a variable that again you as

1492
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 1: someone who is a civilians, it's like it's hard to

1493
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 1: wrap your mind around that threat that someone could be

1494
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: strapped with a bomb, and our inclination as Americans is

1495
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 1: just just to try to talk it out, you know,

1496
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: have some clear escalation of force. But I just squadly.

1497
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: He's a squad leader, had been to combat before. Was

1498
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 1: really hard edged. We had this guy, I mean, we

1499
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 1: were out there, we had just investigated this point of

1500
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: origin site where we found a bunch of rockets. The

1501
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 1: enemy had run away from us, so we were all

1502
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: like ready to go into what you would call like

1503
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: it's some sort of dynamic It was a dynamic situation,

1504
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: but we weren't shooting. And this guy, this guy comes

1505
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 1: out of nowhere and is out of the field of

1506
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:25,600
Speaker 1: my vision. And this squad leader is his name is

1507
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: Jason Sabaki is standing right next to me and just

1508
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: comes out of the field of his is this guy

1509
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,640
Speaker 1: just starts waving his hand. I'm like, my inclination was like,

1510
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is a threat. What do I do?

1511
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: But the moment that I thought that like this, I'm

1512
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: telling you, this is crazy. I was thinking and it

1513
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: was not the right I shouldn't have been. I should

1514
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: have been I should have known. I should have just

1515
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 1: been able to react to this threat. This squad leader

1516
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 1: who had already been there before I had his his

1517
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 1: his weapon up at the high ready and fired a

1518
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 1: warning shot by the guy right by the guy's head

1519
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:57,799
Speaker 1: to tell him to stop before I could even finish

1520
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: my thought. But that's you think about that. But if

1521
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: he wasn't there and this was a suicide bomber, because

1522
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: you talk about thinking these things back like if I

1523
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: would have done this or if this would have happened,

1524
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 1: I mean those I thought that I thought for me,

1525
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 1: what could have gotten me killed? And it would have

1526
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: happened just like that.

1527
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,520
Speaker 2: And as a commander, you're supposed to be cognitively engaged

1528
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 2: in thinking. Sure, well, so I mean, and there's a

1529
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 2: little bit of different. So if I've got my guys,

1530
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 2: like I always said, my team leaders for SWAT, it's like, look,

1531
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 2: your responsibility as a team leaders are what your folks

1532
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 2: are doing, not what's going on here. That's theirs and

1533
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,120
Speaker 2: it's hard to do that. But now they've got this,

1534
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 2: you've got that. So you're telling them to have top

1535
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 2: down controls what we call it, So what's that's the

1536
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 2: term is top down versus bottom up. Top down control

1537
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,759
Speaker 2: is when I'm getting controller where my attention's going. Bottom

1538
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 2: up is when something in these terms I using a

1539
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 2: lot of different domains and science, but an attention bottom

1540
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 2: up is when something pulls so bang, something goes off

1541
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 2: and my attention gets pulled over here, Now am I

1542
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 2: driving it? What occurs a lot of times I'm gonna

1543
01:11:57,880 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 2: throw another one at you here that's going to make

1544
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,800
Speaker 2: you go okay. So what occurs a lot of times

1545
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 2: is something occurs, bang, it's unexpected, maybe it's some type

1546
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 2: of ambush, something that happens very quick, and we have

1547
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 2: a bottom up pull that our attention's on. Whatever it's

1548
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 2: supposed to be and then bang, something happens. Whatever it is,

1549
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 2: and what happens a lot of times with folks that

1550
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 2: have that oh my god moment it's right, then a

1551
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 2: strong bottom up pull causes the external attention to go, oh,

1552
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 2: I see what I saw, and now I go and

1553
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:27,720
Speaker 2: now I'm worried about, Oh my god, what am I

1554
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 2: gonna do? Oh my god, I'm gonna die. To think

1555
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 2: about that is it's a very natural thing to feel

1556
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 2: as a human, right, It's the most natural thing is

1557
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 2: to go, oh my god, I'm gonna die. And I've

1558
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 2: seen people in shootings that I was in. I've seen

1559
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 2: people stuck in this place where they're standing with their

1560
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 2: gun at slide lock, yelling.

1561
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:49,960
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh my god, I had to shoot.

1562
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 2: And not even reloading because they're inside internally processing what

1563
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 2: just had occurred while the gunfight's still occurring. So they

1564
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 2: become defunct processing external information. So let me throw it out.

1565
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 3: This etches.

1566
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,560
Speaker 2: So they went internal in a real situation that was

1567
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 2: at that level. And people little just talk about stress

1568
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 2: and oculation. We understand it, but it's only the tip

1569
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 2: of the iceberg. What do we really talk about when

1570
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 2: we talk about stress evoculation. So I'll ask you this, Sean,

1571
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 2: when you went through all of your training, whether it

1572
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 2: was at the command level where you're needing to think

1573
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 2: and process and know about movements and all this stuff,

1574
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 2: or just your tools training, so your ergonomics with your

1575
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 2: weapons system. Where is our focus of attention when we

1576
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 2: are learning new skills, whether they're cognitive or psychomotor. Wh's

1577
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:39,679
Speaker 2: your military police, It's mostly psychomotive skills. Don't we teach

1578
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 2: to pay attention to where your grip is on your

1579
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 2: gun and your site is on your eye, your cheek

1580
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 2: weld and your charging handle and your magging. Everything that

1581
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 2: we do in the learning environment falls into the internal

1582
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 2: focus of attention quadrant. So I'm based on off real science.

1583
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 2: That's called Nitipher's quadrant internal, external, narrow and broad. So

1584
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 2: when we learn, we're learning internal stuff internal, So we're

1585
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 2: taking our brain and it's always internally processing how am

1586
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:07,559
Speaker 2: I acting reacting with this ergonomic tool or what am

1587
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 2: I dealing with? When I'm always thinking internally while I'm

1588
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 2: in the training environment, while I'm out there in the

1589
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 2: field and I'm in the real environment, what do I

1590
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 2: know actually works? As far as doing well, and actually

1591
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 2: reading is being external, externally focused on what's going on.

1592
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 2: But everything I'm doing in training, i'm internal. Everything I

1593
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:30,040
Speaker 2: need to be doing out there in the real world

1594
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 2: is external. There's a thing called Hebb's law, and Hebb's

1595
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:37,759
Speaker 2: law and the little saying around that is what fires together,

1596
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,400
Speaker 2: wires together. So it has to do with psychomotor skills

1597
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,160
Speaker 2: that when we learn how to get in the car

1598
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 2: and push the button on the dashboard or use the

1599
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:45,640
Speaker 2: key or where our shifter.

1600
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 3: Is on the thing.

1601
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 2: When we do those over and over again, we wire

1602
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 2: those together through these neuropathways in our brain and they

1603
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,920
Speaker 2: become these motor movements. Right, it's motive learning. At some

1604
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 2: point everything that you do with your m four or

1605
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 2: we get to that level of automaticity where we wired

1606
01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 2: all this stuff together, and if we wire in the

1607
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 2: wrong things, they can work against us. We know that

1608
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:07,759
Speaker 2: they're called training scars. We throw that term around loosely,

1609
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 2: but we're still doing that today because what we're doing

1610
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 2: is we are heading in an internal focus of attention

1611
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 2: and traditional style of training, because all we're doing is

1612
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:19,720
Speaker 2: skill development. Think about my hands, my fingers, I place

1613
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 2: them on my feet, my stance, what am I doing

1614
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 2: with my body versus am I reading the play? What's

1615
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 2: going on out here? While this stuff is running at

1616
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 2: this level of automaticity. There needs to be more of

1617
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:34,599
Speaker 2: a play built into the skill acquisition phases of all training,

1618
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 2: whether it's military or police. We're talking about psychomo of skills.

1619
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,639
Speaker 2: This isn't something I made up. I get tired of

1620
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 2: thinking things through and trying to come up with good

1621
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 2: ideas before the gray hair started, because I realized they

1622
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 2: come back and bite me. And when I teach things

1623
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:52,879
Speaker 2: enthusiastically and passionately fifteen years ago, that later on I realize,

1624
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:55,920
Speaker 2: oh my god, I got that so wrong. I used

1625
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 2: to tell people that when you reload your bag in

1626
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 2: the middle of a gunfight on your pistol, absolutely do

1627
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 2: not try to get the slide to go forward by

1628
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 2: dropping that, you know, the slidestop, because that's a fine

1629
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 2: motor skill, and at one hundred and fifty beats per minute,

1630
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: you will have no fine motor skills. There's actually no

1631
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 2: science that supports that whatsoever. We do not lose fine

1632
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 2: motor skills at one hundred and twenty beats per minute.

1633
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,759
Speaker 2: There's correlations that not cause us there's absolutely no science

1634
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 2: that shows a cause effect between elevated heart rate and

1635
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 2: performance with psychomotor skills or gross motor skills. I can

1636
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 2: show you videos of motocross drivers with heart rate, my

1637
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 2: hunters on running at one hundred and ninety beats per

1638
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 2: minute through complex tests.

1639
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:34,919
Speaker 3: You and I both do things.

1640
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 2: Very well at one hundred and seventy one hundred and

1641
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 2: eighty beats per minute. That actually we perform better if

1642
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 2: we're a little bit excited than we do is for

1643
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 2: comm So these things that we train over time, but

1644
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 2: the big one is going back to that internal focus

1645
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:49,640
Speaker 2: of attention during all of our skill acquisition phases in

1646
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 2: any formalized.

1647
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 3: Training that we do, and then throwing out into the

1648
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 3: real situation.

1649
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:56,439
Speaker 2: So what's the key to that? So I don't just

1650
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 2: like present problems. What is the answer to that?

1651
01:16:58,439 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 1: What is it?

1652
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 2: How do we address that challenge? And it's bringing the

1653
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 2: criterion environment into the skill acquisition phases all the way

1654
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 2: through training. Does that take time? Does it take well?

1655
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:12,639
Speaker 2: Mindfully developed snare based training and really well developed feedback

1656
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 2: systems that we know like feedback bandwidth in terms like

1657
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 2: that that people can deep dive if they want to

1658
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 2: or I'll show you the research on it about how

1659
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 2: we actually provide feedback and the best way that we

1660
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 2: can do a little bit and kind of pull back

1661
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 2: off as people get better.

1662
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 3: You know, there's a big deal bend.

1663
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 2: I really love focusing on the internal versus external because

1664
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 2: I can find out when I watch somebody go through

1665
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 2: snair based training. I can watch videos of real shootings

1666
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,719
Speaker 2: or real conflict where people go something occurs what brings

1667
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 2: them internal, and then maybe as things calm down, they'll

1668
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 2: get back external again. We'll find that usually the commands

1669
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 2: that they're saying will fit into one of two polarities

1670
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 2: that matches right up with this. Throughout an incident where

1671
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:56,760
Speaker 2: things are non stressful and people are pretty good at

1672
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,560
Speaker 2: communicating what they mean. Those are called alpha commands or

1673
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,599
Speaker 2: alphasp each and then as things start getting crazy, going

1674
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:04,680
Speaker 2: to either stay locked down with the alpha command is

1675
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:05,400
Speaker 2: very detailed.

1676
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 3: That's very characteristic. I'm an external focus of attention.

1677
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 2: Where the rational part of the brain is predominating over

1678
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 2: the emotional part of the brain. But we'll see other

1679
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,280
Speaker 2: people going to like goofy loops, you know, drop the gun,

1680
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 2: drop the gun.

1681
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 3: Job. They just keep repeating the same thing and it's

1682
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 3: not working.

1683
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: That's more give give me a give me an example

1684
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: a give me Okay, so you gave me an example

1685
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 1: of drop, So give me an example of of of

1686
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 1: an alpha command. When you say you know and things

1687
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 1: are basically chill versus like you're an actual situation, like

1688
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 1: what does right look like? And what does what is

1689
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: wrong look like? This is fascinating.

1690
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 2: An alpha command is going to be something a command

1691
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 2: that is very clear, it's unambiguous, it's very reflective of

1692
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 2: someone who has an external focus of attention and the

1693
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 2: rational brain is predominating over the emotional brain, so they're

1694
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 2: in tune with what is occurring. Sir, I need you

1695
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 2: to take your right hand and put it on the

1696
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:54,600
Speaker 2: steering wheel and need you to do that for me

1697
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:58,880
Speaker 2: right now. So there's no mistake on the communication of

1698
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 2: what you want them to do. It can even be

1699
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:03,800
Speaker 2: a communication, right It can be a communication of just

1700
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 2: the way you're communicating with somebody, but it's detailed and

1701
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 2: it's specific to what's occurring. Beta commands don't do that,

1702
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 2: don't do that, don't do that, don't make me shoot you,

1703
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 2: don't make me shoot you. There's no detail or you'll

1704
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,720
Speaker 2: see what sometimes it's referred to like a goofy loop.

1705
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 2: You know, I'm I'm dropping, I'm not gonna tell again,

1706
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:22,519
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna take it in droping on dropping and

1707
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna take it and dropt go not to it.

1708
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:26,559
Speaker 3: So they get in this thing and what's occurring usually

1709
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 3: is they're they're.

1710
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:30,479
Speaker 2: Seeing something, but they're back inside their brain and they're

1711
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 2: stuck into a problem solvumn state. Right, We're trying to

1712
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 2: figure out what do I do next? What do I

1713
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 2: do next? An internal focus of attention, and a lot

1714
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:40,439
Speaker 2: of times that will also be upon investigation later on

1715
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:42,720
Speaker 2: down the road. They'll find that when they talk to

1716
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 2: these folks that go through these situations while they're having

1717
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 2: these very detailed commands and then you know, the shit

1718
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 2: hits the fan and all of a sudden, they go

1719
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 2: in and get more beta type commands and then if

1720
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 2: it works out or whatever, they survive it, and then

1721
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 2: they get more detailed. It also tracks with their memory,

1722
01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:01,559
Speaker 2: because what we know about attention is we only remember

1723
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 2: the things that we attend to. Right, that's selective attention

1724
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 2: tunnel vision, and that's a whole another two hours of

1725
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:08,519
Speaker 2: talk and I won't get it too. But it really

1726
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:11,439
Speaker 2: is important to understand that when we are more alpha commands,

1727
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:13,800
Speaker 2: we're more rationally focused. Our memory is more clear about

1728
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 2: what was occurring. When we get that bottom up and

1729
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:18,600
Speaker 2: internal focus, A lot of times the memory and an

1730
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 2: interview will be, oh, my god, I thought I was

1731
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,559
Speaker 2: going to die. My life lasts in front of my safe,

1732
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:25,800
Speaker 2: my face, my eyes. I thought about my kids. I'm

1733
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 2: not going to make it home tonight. I mean, I

1734
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 2: remember having those feelings on callouts, but they weren't in

1735
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 2: the middle of the action sequence. They were during the

1736
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 2: planning stages where we're going to go in here and

1737
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm gonna see my kids tomorrow

1738
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:43,439
Speaker 2: because I know I'm going to be right up front. Okay,

1739
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 2: good with that, Yeah, let's go get focused. You got

1740
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 2: guys depending on Okay, all right, let's go. You can

1741
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:52,760
Speaker 2: have those thoughts. There's times that you're going to be

1742
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 2: in all of these quadrants and you can flash around

1743
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 2: them in a moment, but when it comes to I

1744
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 2: need to act and react in something that it's occurring

1745
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 2: right away, our training should be geared towards trying to

1746
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 2: build the muscle as I say, have top down control

1747
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 2: of your attention, recognizing when something pushed you internally and

1748
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 2: getting right back externally focused on what's occurring, so you

1749
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,599
Speaker 2: can process information so your decisions and actions are going

1750
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 2: to be as close to right as possible.

1751
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 1: Jeez, this is this is fascinating, and this is all

1752
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 1: the stuff that you do at the Force Science Institute,

1753
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:30,800
Speaker 1: all things that are I mean, you're working with other

1754
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies to train, other to train.

1755
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 2: Yes, we run the courses. Our MOI course is the

1756
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:43,160
Speaker 2: big train the trainer one. I also teach about two

1757
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:45,439
Speaker 2: and a half days in our five day course, which

1758
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 2: is our certification course, analyst course, so we get a

1759
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:53,880
Speaker 2: mix usually you know about forty of trainers and then investigators,

1760
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 2: and that one's based on human performance factors, so that

1761
01:21:57,160 --> 01:21:59,240
Speaker 2: course is really human So we're looking at things like

1762
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:05,360
Speaker 2: there's nine instructors on staff, medical doctors PhDs, peer reviewed

1763
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:08,120
Speaker 2: papers they've been responsible for. As contrary to what you're

1764
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 2: in the news, our research is peer reviewed and some

1765
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:15,240
Speaker 2: of the most stringent journals in the country, and our

1766
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 2: partnering instructors with that as well, and they talk about

1767
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 2: the things I covers, like limitations and human performance factors

1768
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:25,640
Speaker 2: are on vision, attention, memory, human error decision making. We

1769
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 2: get in the context cues and schemas they look about

1770
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:31,640
Speaker 2: the physiology around the eye, the brain. A lot of

1771
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,680
Speaker 2: research that we've done on action and reaction times and

1772
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 2: it's there too with our research side of the house.

1773
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,320
Speaker 2: So we have three main divisions. Training is where I'm at.

1774
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 2: Our research division there, which is doctor Lewinsky and the

1775
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:48,200
Speaker 2: doctors that we have on staff and partnering PhDs and

1776
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 2: medical doctors doing research all the time and publications. And

1777
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:54,720
Speaker 2: then our consulting division, And that's where the people that

1778
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,679
Speaker 2: are outside law enforcement, they only know us from consulting

1779
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:00,200
Speaker 2: because some of the high profile cases that you know,

1780
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 2: our names come up in the background when you know,

1781
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,760
Speaker 2: some officer that was charged had charges dismissed because of

1782
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 2: the testimony of an expert that went through for science training,

1783
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,759
Speaker 2: and it isn't that, it's it's you know, for science,

1784
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 2: it's the research around the subjects of human factors. So

1785
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:22,160
Speaker 2: understanding how normal slip and capture errors are, what is

1786
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:25,400
Speaker 2: the realistic time frames that we're dealing with, and our

1787
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:28,800
Speaker 2: human limitations as far as action and reaction and a

1788
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,560
Speaker 2: dynamic situation. You know, how fast can things occur? A

1789
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:34,479
Speaker 2: lot of people don't realize that. You know, if I'm

1790
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:36,759
Speaker 2: not expecting something to occur, and all of a sudden

1791
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 2: there's an ambush that I didn't see coming. I didn't

1792
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:42,280
Speaker 2: predict any part of that that. It takes about three

1793
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 2: hundred milliseconds close to that are approximation at three hundred

1794
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 2: milliseconds a third of a second before my brain even

1795
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 2: notices a change in my environment. And maybe I can

1796
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 2: get a flinch response quick, but it's not an organized response,

1797
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 2: whether it's productive or not. An organized response doesn't even

1798
01:23:57,439 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 2: start after that. And if someone pulls a gun out

1799
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 2: of their waistband, they can do that in a quarter second,

1800
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,080
Speaker 2: and they can fire five rounds in the first second,

1801
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 2: but it takes most officers about one and a half

1802
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 2: to two seconds to get their gun out of the

1803
01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:12,759
Speaker 2: holster for one round. How many rounds are you eating

1804
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 2: before you can even return fire if it's an ambush,

1805
01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:18,240
Speaker 2: And the answer to that is going to be five, six,

1806
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 2: seven rounds sometimes before, and that's if they're not hit

1807
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 2: at point blank range, and the ranges that we're getting

1808
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 2: hit at. So all that data, a lot of that

1809
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:26,880
Speaker 2: data comes from LEOCA, but a lot of the data

1810
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:30,400
Speaker 2: comes from our ability to perceive and act and react,

1811
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 2: and it lines right up and some of our research.

1812
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 2: And you know, obviously when things go to court, there's

1813
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 2: going to be all types of battles and courts and

1814
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 2: everybody's sling mud and all that kind of stuff, which

1815
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 2: is I like to stay on the training side of

1816
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 2: the house where I.

1817
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:42,920
Speaker 1: Really like it.

1818
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:45,680
Speaker 2: I've been in court with all those cases while I

1819
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:48,280
Speaker 2: was on the job for twenty eight years, So I

1820
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:50,640
Speaker 2: leave that to the legal experts on that.

1821
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,120
Speaker 3: But I've done some consultation, I've done some expert work.

1822
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:54,960
Speaker 3: People do turn to.

1823
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 2: Us when it comes to looking at human factors, and

1824
01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:01,320
Speaker 2: as I say, we are here looking at the research

1825
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 2: and other experts to help educate. We're educating about human factors.

1826
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:07,639
Speaker 2: To me, when it comes to consultation and expert work,

1827
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:11,479
Speaker 2: it's really about education. These are some facts, here's some data.

1828
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 2: Here's some things that we may not understand about conflict

1829
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:19,200
Speaker 2: and dynamic situation when it comes to realistic time frames.

1830
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:23,640
Speaker 2: What about your expectations of officer performance, Sean, Did you

1831
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 2: know that if you play high school football for four years,

1832
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:32,759
Speaker 2: that's one sport with an off season. If you added

1833
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 2: up all of the practices that you go to in

1834
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:37,519
Speaker 2: all of the game time that you go to in

1835
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 2: four years of playing a seasonal sport, you will get

1836
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 2: more time training and game time on the field than

1837
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 2: most police officers will get in training over a twenty

1838
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 2: year career. You will get more training. If you get

1839
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:56,560
Speaker 2: a job at pet Goo to shave a dog's hair unsupervised,

1840
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 2: you will go through more hours of training and exit

1841
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 2: then a police officer gets in a police academy. That's

1842
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:05,439
Speaker 2: that's traditionally across the board.

1843
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so what's your take on You know politicians

1844
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 1: who will say in a use of four scenario, well

1845
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 1: did you have to did you have to take them out?

1846
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 1: Why couldn't you just shoot him in the leg? You

1847
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 1: got it. All the stuff that you've seen and all

1848
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 1: the stuff that you're out there teaching, you got to

1849
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,400
Speaker 1: hear that stuff and just be like, God, these people

1850
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 1: are idiots. You have to think that I'm saying that

1851
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:30,439
Speaker 1: you don't have to say that.

1852
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, frustrating is I look at it a couple of ways,

1853
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 2: because sometimes I'll get and I would get calls back

1854
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 2: on the job from like the DA's officers just looking

1855
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 2: to understand and it's like, can you help us understand this?

1856
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, I got some good research on it.

1857
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 2: But there's you know, there's a lot of things that

1858
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 2: people really oversimplify when it comes to looking at these

1859
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 2: types of dynamic situations, and it does get frustrating when

1860
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,439
Speaker 2: you hear things like, well, you know, they dropped the

1861
01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:59,360
Speaker 2: gun and the officer fired two more rounds, and you

1862
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:00,920
Speaker 2: know they should have been able, should have, could have

1863
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 2: would and those are all hindsight bias. We know that

1864
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 2: there's research out there that says, even if I'm looking

1865
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 2: at the difference between a green light and a red

1866
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 2: light and I'm firing at a target, as soon as

1867
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:12,519
Speaker 2: the green light turns to red or whatever color changes

1868
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:15,960
Speaker 2: something just as simple as that, I'll still fire two

1869
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 2: rounds before my brain sees the change.

1870
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 3: And then I can stop the behavior of this.

1871
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:23,920
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a that's called US closed loop because it's

1872
01:27:23,920 --> 01:27:26,639
Speaker 2: closed loop motor program versus an open loop motor program.

1873
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:29,600
Speaker 2: So I start to get feedback that something's changed, and

1874
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 2: now my body can change. So we have we have

1875
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 2: research that'll show that, you know, there's a minimum amount

1876
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:37,679
Speaker 2: of time. But that is if the person's getting the feedback.

1877
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,200
Speaker 2: What if someone is in a gunfight and they're firing

1878
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 2: their gun, going oh my god, I'm gonna die. Are

1879
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 2: they actually reading that person gun dropping or falling or

1880
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:48,679
Speaker 2: the plate pad, or are they firing with their eyes

1881
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 2: going oh my god, I'm going to die now, then

1882
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:53,719
Speaker 2: this thing is over with. I've seen cases where the gunfight,

1883
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:57,800
Speaker 2: entire gunfights of multiple rounds last you know, less than

1884
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:02,559
Speaker 2: two seconds, three point seventy five seconds, and an officer

1885
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:04,519
Speaker 2: was asked one hundred and eighty seven questions about three

1886
01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:07,080
Speaker 2: point five seconds in their life during the middle of

1887
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:09,719
Speaker 2: a gunfight where another officer was shot, and they're supposed

1888
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:12,519
Speaker 2: to have detailed play by play information. We know in

1889
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:15,559
Speaker 2: research that human memory doesn't work that way. It doesn't

1890
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,639
Speaker 2: slow things down like we watch, you know, a game

1891
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 2: day on Sunday, where we can slow things down and

1892
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:23,840
Speaker 2: start picking all these little details apart. What if we're

1893
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:27,240
Speaker 2: internally focused, our memory about that is very cauded. What

1894
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 2: if we're looking at the gun and we can't see

1895
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 2: anything else because of tunnel vision, which most people, including

1896
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:35,479
Speaker 2: in military and law enforcement, were trained like I was

1897
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:37,519
Speaker 2: that that's a really bad thing, and we need to

1898
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 2: trade people to avoid that. There couldn't be anything further

1899
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,920
Speaker 2: from the truth. Tunnel vision is actually called selective attention.

1900
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:47,320
Speaker 2: The information that we can't process during that period is

1901
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 2: called in intentional blindness. The thing we know is that

1902
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:52,839
Speaker 2: with experience, we know where we need to focus our attention.

1903
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:55,439
Speaker 2: That usually works in our favor. That's why we can

1904
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 2: see that it's a gun and not a cell phone.

1905
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:00,760
Speaker 2: On the amount of times that we can't count, we

1906
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 2: can't quantify how many times officers didn't use a certain

1907
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:06,240
Speaker 2: force or de detect it because of information they picked

1908
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:08,600
Speaker 2: up because their attention was there. The problem is we

1909
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:11,840
Speaker 2: can't quantify when these things work out for us. They

1910
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 2: can only quantify when it didn't work out, when it

1911
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:16,600
Speaker 2: worked against us. So yes, the give and take to

1912
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:19,679
Speaker 2: that is, yeah, you can't process a lot of information

1913
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 2: around that most important thing. That's in intentional blindness. That's

1914
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 2: the downside the tunnel vision. We can't have external and

1915
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 2: broad and external it now intensely at the same time

1916
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 2: doesn't occur. There's situational awareness from before and after, but

1917
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 2: when someone's actually going to bring that gun or whatever

1918
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,320
Speaker 2: it is, up, we go boom right there, and it's

1919
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,200
Speaker 2: exactly where we should be externally narrowly focused on the

1920
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 2: action so I can act and react to that. And

1921
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 2: again all these things, trying to build it into training

1922
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 2: is important. But does it get frustrated that we're constantly

1923
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:53,360
Speaker 2: trying to educate people on this and it isn't mainstream

1924
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:56,680
Speaker 2: education or mainstream understanding by now. I don't think it's

1925
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:59,680
Speaker 2: ever going to be sean because even people that have

1926
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 2: done this job for many years will go up through

1927
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:03,560
Speaker 2: the ranks and when the pressures and all of a

1928
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 2: sudden they become.

1929
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:05,639
Speaker 3: Deputy chiefs and chiefs.

1930
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:10,640
Speaker 2: And again I admire most chiefs I've worked for fantastic

1931
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 2: at their job. And again the unsung heroes and masses

1932
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:16,439
Speaker 2: that are out there really fighting the good fight out there.

1933
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:18,360
Speaker 2: But there's people come out and look at the situation

1934
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:23,960
Speaker 2: and because of the optics, look so bad. Automatically negligence

1935
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:26,880
Speaker 2: and then culpability just get sucked into there like leeches,

1936
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 2: and it's like until you really understand what happened, what

1937
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 2: this person was going through in the moment, we have

1938
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:35,720
Speaker 2: to reserve judgment. It's very hard to do. It's hard

1939
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 2: for me even when I'll look at something on the

1940
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:40,639
Speaker 2: news go and it's like, really, wait to get all

1941
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 2: of the files and the three gigs of information on it,

1942
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:45,320
Speaker 2: start peel in that onion a way, and then especially

1943
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 2: talk that officer about what they were seeing and perceiving

1944
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 2: and thinking in the moments where that occurred.

1945
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 1: There's such a tendency in our culture today to blame

1946
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:57,879
Speaker 1: the officer or not without really fully understanding the scenario,

1947
01:30:57,960 --> 01:30:59,640
Speaker 1: which is why I was so careful talking about the

1948
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: FBI thing. It's just a whole lot of stuff I

1949
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:05,960
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, it's just what do you think about?

1950
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:09,360
Speaker 1: And again, like I don't want to put you on

1951
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 1: the spot or any of this stuff, but like, what

1952
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:13,320
Speaker 1: do you think about the defund the police stuff? You

1953
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:16,080
Speaker 1: said earlier in the interview, and one of the first

1954
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:18,640
Speaker 1: things you said, this is a thankless job. Do you

1955
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:20,599
Speaker 1: Is that something that you go into thinking like, hey,

1956
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:23,240
Speaker 1: people are never going to fully understand what I do.

1957
01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 1: But I don't do it for them. I do it

1958
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 1: for myself and the people around me that wear this

1959
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:32,479
Speaker 1: badge on their chest. Does that does the defund the

1960
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 1: police stuff? Does it bother you?

1961
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:35,639
Speaker 3: It does?

1962
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:38,520
Speaker 2: But I look at it like these are just phases

1963
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 2: that our country goes through. It. It's new for us

1964
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 2: that are in this role right now, but it's not

1965
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:47,960
Speaker 2: new for the profession. Right the terms are defunder whatever

1966
01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 2: it was. But you know, law enforcement's gone through. Older

1967
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:53,920
Speaker 2: guys that are still around can talk about times in

1968
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:56,560
Speaker 2: the sixties and the seventies where you know, this is

1969
01:31:56,600 --> 01:31:58,639
Speaker 2: your fight now, guys, but we went through stuff too,

1970
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 2: and it always seems like it's much worse now. And

1971
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, I feel like it is too,

1972
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:07,080
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm hoping that the pendulum is going

1973
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 2: to swing because that's the way things occur. Things happen

1974
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 2: for a reason. Has law enforcement gone out and have

1975
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:17,760
Speaker 2: we learned how to be more accountable to ourselves, he

1976
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:20,640
Speaker 2: or each other. I'm hoping that there's going to be

1977
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:23,000
Speaker 2: a silver lining to all of this when the pendulum

1978
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 2: does swing the other way. To me, what I'm hoping

1979
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:27,720
Speaker 2: for are people going to realize that if we want

1980
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:30,599
Speaker 2: to improve what's going on out there in the street,

1981
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 2: we need to invest properly into building better police officers.

1982
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 2: We need the resources, we need, the training, we need

1983
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:43,120
Speaker 2: the culture to change from a training perspective and that's it.

1984
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:45,760
Speaker 2: I mean. The other part is like, if you got

1985
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:48,600
Speaker 2: into this job because you wanted to wear you know,

1986
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 2: the cape and get the pat on the back like

1987
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:52,879
Speaker 2: you know, you know, thank you, Loan Ranger or Superman

1988
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:53,479
Speaker 2: or whatever.

1989
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 3: It is, it's the wrong job for that. It is.

1990
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 2: It has to be an intrinsic motivation. It has to

1991
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:02,519
Speaker 2: be a sense of duty. It has to be a

1992
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 2: sense of you know what, I like this job more

1993
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 2: because people don't like me for it. It kind of

1994
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 2: makes it niche like you just don't understand it to

1995
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:14,439
Speaker 2: the point where I'm going to still come and help.

1996
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 3: You whether you like me or not.

1997
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:17,960
Speaker 2: And if you can affect people on a one to

1998
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:20,400
Speaker 2: one basis, because there'll be people out on the street

1999
01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:23,280
Speaker 2: holding the sandwich boards and yelling, and then you're there

2000
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 2: at their house at night, tending to their child or

2001
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 2: dealing with them and getting somebody out of a house,

2002
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:31,599
Speaker 2: or fixing a situation and solving a problem for them

2003
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,880
Speaker 2: that they cannot solve themselves. And we do that consistently

2004
01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:38,280
Speaker 2: millions of times across this country every single day and

2005
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:41,640
Speaker 2: every single night. Nobody says boo, and nobody says thank you,

2006
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:44,400
Speaker 2: and we don't I speaking of myself here. We don't

2007
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 2: need it. We don't need it, We don't need to

2008
01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:47,800
Speaker 2: thank you, We don't need a pat on the back.

2009
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:49,719
Speaker 2: Just like when people say thank you for your service,

2010
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:52,800
Speaker 2: it's like, I appreciate it, but isn't why I did it,

2011
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 2: isn't why we do it right.

2012
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:56,519
Speaker 3: We do it because it's the right thing to do.

2013
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:57,840
Speaker 3: And we know we're going to.

2014
01:33:57,880 --> 01:34:00,960
Speaker 2: Get cast into situations that most people will never have

2015
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:02,559
Speaker 2: to face, and we're going to have to go over

2016
01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 2: and over and over again into these situations where our

2017
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:08,200
Speaker 2: split second decisions are going to be held out and

2018
01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:11,559
Speaker 2: magnified and slowed down and picked apart. And if we

2019
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:13,800
Speaker 2: don't have people are willing to do that, then I

2020
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:15,880
Speaker 2: won't have. You know, then I have a loss for

2021
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:17,960
Speaker 2: where the society is going. But we're still going to

2022
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:19,679
Speaker 2: have people that are willing to go into this job

2023
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 2: and go out there and do this thankless job understanding

2024
01:34:22,400 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 2: that you're not going to get the pats on the back.

2025
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:25,800
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that you're going to be

2026
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:28,240
Speaker 2: dealing with for the rest of your life, and as

2027
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 2: far as wellness and mental wellness, but we do need

2028
01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:34,719
Speaker 2: strong Americans to come out here and do this job.

2029
01:34:35,160 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 3: And they're there.

2030
01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:36,639
Speaker 2: They're there.

2031
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 1: We need more, well, I have to tell you. I mean,

2032
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:43,799
Speaker 1: you know you talked about training and investing in building

2033
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:47,160
Speaker 1: better police officers. I couldn't agree more. And what I've

2034
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:51,160
Speaker 1: noticed over over the last few years now is that

2035
01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 1: the defund the police movement it was, it made people

2036
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:01,040
Speaker 1: good people hesitant to join. I mean Pennsylvania, which is

2037
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:04,479
Speaker 1: where I'm from. Like, I've got so many friends who

2038
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 1: are police officers or even working as state police, or

2039
01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:10,080
Speaker 1: even working on the FBI. I mean so many people

2040
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,280
Speaker 1: that are great, great human beings that look at the

2041
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,719
Speaker 1: way that our leaders. Again, on both sides of the aisle.

2042
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 1: This isn't I'm not getting overtly political here, but on

2043
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:21,599
Speaker 1: both sides of the aisle, like the Monday morning quarterback things.

2044
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:25,120
Speaker 1: And now we've got a recruiting crisis of for people

2045
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:28,600
Speaker 1: for the state police here in the great state of Pennsylvania.

2046
01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 1: And it's primarily because people don't want the headache, I

2047
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:35,000
Speaker 1: feel like, and I think that's a problem.

2048
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:36,640
Speaker 3: It's a tough time for us.

2049
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 2: Our classes. When I was running the academy, we were

2050
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:41,519
Speaker 2: I would say, look, we got to shut the door

2051
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 2: at fifty fifty recruits. Other than that, then I get

2052
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 2: the time on the range and the cars. That gets

2053
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 2: really challenging. Sometimes we'd stretch it out to sixty because

2054
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:53,360
Speaker 2: we'd get some fallof some you know, people that didn't

2055
01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:56,000
Speaker 2: make it through, and it was still pushing it. We'd

2056
01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:59,000
Speaker 2: have up to one thousand people looking to get into

2057
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:01,799
Speaker 2: the job and we're going through are phases of hiring

2058
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:04,679
Speaker 2: on those. We never had to recruit anything. The last academy,

2059
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:06,000
Speaker 2: I just went and did a couple of days on

2060
01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 2: decision making. I think there were nine recruits. And that's regional.

2061
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 2: That's not just our city, it's regional. And and I

2062
01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:16,000
Speaker 2: I'm not there now. The other folks are but still

2063
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:18,479
Speaker 2: going to our New York State Directors meeting, they were

2064
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:21,080
Speaker 2: still touting that Syracuse Academy is probably one of the

2065
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:24,160
Speaker 2: best or the best academy in the state still because

2066
01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:28,080
Speaker 2: of what we've done with addressing these issues of you know,

2067
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:33,360
Speaker 2: combating block and silotype training, interleaving and this ecological dynamic

2068
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:36,840
Speaker 2: approach to training with constraints let approach. And any people

2069
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:39,519
Speaker 2: are out there listening to this that are on the

2070
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:41,639
Speaker 2: finger on the pulse on that just they just got

2071
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:43,519
Speaker 2: all excited and the heartbeat just went up a little bit.

2072
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:46,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, we're doing that stuff too, and still we've

2073
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:49,599
Speaker 2: got nine. So yeah, it's hit us. It's hit us,

2074
01:36:49,640 --> 01:36:52,120
Speaker 2: and you know, honestly, I can't blame them. The other

2075
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 2: thing that we've found, and I've seen this as I

2076
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:57,800
Speaker 2: travel Sean, is some of the some of the you know,

2077
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 2: you've got your city agencies like where I work in Syracuse.

2078
01:37:01,280 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 2: You've got these agencies around whatever, Cleveland, and you have

2079
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:05,400
Speaker 2: your main cities where there's.

2080
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:06,479
Speaker 3: There's cops working there.

2081
01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:08,760
Speaker 2: And then you've got your outskirts and the towns and

2082
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:12,320
Speaker 2: villages where you have smaller departments, smaller communities, and there's

2083
01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 2: a lot of people that are getting hired by the

2084
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:16,519
Speaker 2: bigger cities and then they're bantling and going out to

2085
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:18,600
Speaker 2: the small as they open up there. They're trying to

2086
01:37:18,640 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 2: get out of that environment because and one thing is,

2087
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:28,799
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, the amount of they're so busy,

2088
01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 2: they're so busy they can't I mean I remember days

2089
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:34,200
Speaker 2: you can't even you're like, I can't answer one more

2090
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:35,680
Speaker 2: call before I have to find a bathroom, if to

2091
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:37,600
Speaker 2: urine it, I can't. I've been holding it for the

2092
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 2: last six calls, and you can't go and stop when

2093
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:43,200
Speaker 2: your buddy's got something going on over here and you

2094
01:37:43,240 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 2: got to get there. It's it's that busy, uh, and

2095
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:50,160
Speaker 2: it's tough, so it really wears you down. I talk

2096
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:52,559
Speaker 2: about this once in a while, that the idea of

2097
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 2: what a like a good cop like you're feeling your

2098
01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:57,240
Speaker 2: own feeling about I had a good day at work today.

2099
01:37:58,080 --> 01:38:00,479
Speaker 2: I did a good job. So what is that all about? Right?

2100
01:38:00,479 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 2: What is it that makes you feel good about your

2101
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 2: job today? And you know it's I mean doing something

2102
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 2: good for someone that always feels good, right, somebody appreciates you. Yeah,

2103
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 2: the panel back, it's there. Like I said, I appreciate it,

2104
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 2: don't need it, but it does feel good. What's changed

2105
01:38:18,320 --> 01:38:21,840
Speaker 2: over the years, as I've seen, is thorough in this,

2106
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:23,960
Speaker 2: especially when I work for smaller departments. I worked for

2107
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 2: a couple of small departments for a short time, being

2108
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:29,000
Speaker 2: really thorough putting your time into something, making sure you

2109
01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:31,600
Speaker 2: cover all your bases, and the way you talk to

2110
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 2: people and everything else was good. You've followed up on

2111
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:36,479
Speaker 2: your stuff and you did a good job for somebody.

2112
01:38:36,479 --> 01:38:38,719
Speaker 2: So at the end of the day, They're like, they

2113
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,559
Speaker 2: really went out of their way for me. It felt

2114
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:43,479
Speaker 2: really good to do it when you work for a

2115
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:46,160
Speaker 2: city agency. And like I said, I wasn't joking. Your

2116
01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:48,640
Speaker 2: twenty calls backed up on a Friday in February. We're

2117
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:50,679
Speaker 2: two foot of snow and a blizzard, and you're still

2118
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:54,080
Speaker 2: twenty calls backed up in your territory. What makes you?

2119
01:38:54,080 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 2: You know that good? The good cop, if you will

2120
01:38:56,920 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 2: to be, is the one that can knock them calls

2121
01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:01,320
Speaker 2: down before they turn the car over to the next shift.

2122
01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:04,639
Speaker 2: So you're trying to be efficient, but you're also trying

2123
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:06,519
Speaker 2: to get these calls knocked out. You're going there, Yes,

2124
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:07,679
Speaker 2: what can I help you with? Good?

2125
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:10,040
Speaker 3: Not a police matter. Sorry, but you know what I mean.

2126
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:13,280
Speaker 2: It's just cops end up being at the expense of

2127
01:39:13,360 --> 01:39:16,040
Speaker 2: our own how people view us. They end up being

2128
01:39:16,120 --> 01:39:18,760
Speaker 2: very curt about the business end of what we do

2129
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:21,759
Speaker 2: and what we're engagement. We're there because I just cleared

2130
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:24,040
Speaker 2: ten calls and I've got fifteen more to go before

2131
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:25,760
Speaker 2: I turned this car over to the next guy, who

2132
01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:28,920
Speaker 2: I appreciate, and I'm not leaving his territory all messed

2133
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:32,800
Speaker 2: up because I was spending thirty minutes talking someone so

2134
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:35,479
Speaker 2: they feel good about the police when I couldn't want

2135
01:39:35,479 --> 01:39:37,559
Speaker 2: to three more calls. So there's a lot of things

2136
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:40,000
Speaker 2: about the culture inside of the day to day that

2137
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 2: a lot of folks aren't aware of, either that the

2138
01:39:42,439 --> 01:39:44,679
Speaker 2: cop isn't just being mean or anything. They're just they're

2139
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 2: really trying to get to more people, to serve more

2140
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 2: people and get that job done, to turn the car over.

2141
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:51,560
Speaker 2: So it's just a little things that a lot of

2142
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:52,360
Speaker 2: people aren't aware of.

2143
01:39:52,400 --> 01:39:54,719
Speaker 1: You know, Well, Mike, I could talk to you forever,

2144
01:39:54,760 --> 01:39:56,559
Speaker 1: but we've already been talking for an hour and forty

2145
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:58,439
Speaker 1: five minutes. Can I have you back at some point

2146
01:39:58,520 --> 01:39:59,040
Speaker 1: to talk more?

2147
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:02,120
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, absolute, I got all kinds of stories.

2148
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:03,640
Speaker 1: I love it well, I want to hear them. I

2149
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:05,800
Speaker 1: want to hear them. And now that I'm doing this,

2150
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:08,519
Speaker 1: I do this nightly show at five. It's a live

2151
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:11,960
Speaker 1: stream where I would love to have you back on

2152
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 1: that show as well, to just get your feedback about

2153
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:17,679
Speaker 1: some of these, you know, tactical situations, just like what happened.

2154
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean, not not get political, just to give me

2155
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:22,720
Speaker 1: a breakdown of what's going through the minds of these

2156
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:27,760
Speaker 1: officers when they enter scenarios like this. Okay, so how

2157
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 1: can people help you? Is there something that this audience

2158
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 1: can do for the for Science Institute or you personally?

2159
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 2: I just say check us out, you know, go on

2160
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 2: our website Www. Dot for Science dot com and like

2161
01:40:40,920 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 2: I said, whether you're in an investigation side of the

2162
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:47,280
Speaker 2: house or training, there's information there, consultation is there, and

2163
01:40:47,320 --> 01:40:50,040
Speaker 2: then the research part. You can look and see the publications,

2164
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:52,880
Speaker 2: the peer reviewed publications that are out there is FAUS

2165
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 2: research in the past, what we have, things that we're

2166
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:57,840
Speaker 2: working on will be coming out on there as well.

2167
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:00,519
Speaker 2: Follow us on LinkedIn and a lot of time. We

2168
01:41:00,640 --> 01:41:04,000
Speaker 2: just finished a study in Mesa, Arizona, and head a

2169
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:07,639
Speaker 2: few papers peer reviewed and published recently with the use

2170
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:12,360
Speaker 2: of eye trackers during dynamic situations, which I'm telling you, Sean,

2171
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:14,400
Speaker 2: this is really something that you know, a lot of

2172
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 2: times when we're doing research on this, we're looking for

2173
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:19,479
Speaker 2: certain things that we're testing and measuring, and then we'll

2174
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 2: get a lot of other data and we've found some

2175
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 2: really neat things that I loved. You guys, you get

2176
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 2: exposed to once everything's out with a video. But eye

2177
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 2: trackers on officers during a situation along with body worm cameras,

2178
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:33,240
Speaker 2: and you can go into court and you can talk

2179
01:41:33,240 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 2: about how a body warn camera is not what the

2180
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:39,280
Speaker 2: officer's actually seeing. It's just a representation of capturing information.

2181
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:42,360
Speaker 2: But when something doesn't turn out well and a jury's

2182
01:41:42,360 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 2: looking like that, it's like, I can see it. Why

2183
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:45,960
Speaker 2: isn't that officer? What do you mean they're not seeing it?

2184
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 2: That's their camera, that's what they're seeing. And now we

2185
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,800
Speaker 2: have eye trackers on that are basically they're able to

2186
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:55,720
Speaker 2: show on a screen with a video of a real situation.

2187
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:58,200
Speaker 2: That's a real scenario. I should say that was built

2188
01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:01,200
Speaker 2: up with an action sequence to it within a half

2189
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:04,840
Speaker 2: a degree of visual angle error of where that officer's

2190
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:08,679
Speaker 2: focal vision was as they're moving around, sing around the scene.

2191
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:12,040
Speaker 2: So as they're doing that, we have it synced up

2192
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:15,000
Speaker 2: with their body worn camera side by side, and now

2193
01:42:15,040 --> 01:42:17,479
Speaker 2: you get to see the difference between the bodyworm camera

2194
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:20,559
Speaker 2: and the eye tracker all synced up in the same timeline,

2195
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:24,400
Speaker 2: and they're two separate movies. You've got You've got the

2196
01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 2: officer looking at someone's face over here, and I think

2197
01:42:26,840 --> 01:42:29,559
Speaker 2: it's just it's nice again, It's not like we don't

2198
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:31,120
Speaker 2: look at it as like, ha, here it is.

2199
01:42:31,439 --> 01:42:32,920
Speaker 3: It's really like this.

2200
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:36,120
Speaker 2: This is a representation the video format of what we're

2201
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:39,680
Speaker 2: trying to explain about attention and vision and how we

2202
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:44,439
Speaker 2: process information, our ability to see these things. And it's

2203
01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:46,720
Speaker 2: just a real good visual of being able to see

2204
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 2: that along with all the other data that they went

2205
01:42:49,160 --> 01:42:52,080
Speaker 2: through with the research and all that and how that

2206
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:52,479
Speaker 2: came out.

2207
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:54,160
Speaker 3: So a lot of good research coming out.

2208
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:57,080
Speaker 2: So again our websites there go on the training on

2209
01:42:57,120 --> 01:42:59,280
Speaker 2: that and you can see those breakdown of the instructors

2210
01:42:59,320 --> 01:43:02,200
Speaker 2: and our instruction or cadre with all the PhDs, the mds,

2211
01:43:02,439 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 2: the knuckle dragon nerds like me that are just trained

2212
01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:07,680
Speaker 2: to I always say, my job is to work with

2213
01:43:07,720 --> 01:43:10,840
Speaker 2: the researchers and the scientists, and my part is application.

2214
01:43:11,120 --> 01:43:14,600
Speaker 2: So there's always been a chasm between what's going on

2215
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 2: in the halls of academia and what's actually occurring out

2216
01:43:17,240 --> 01:43:18,640
Speaker 2: there in the real world. And I don't care if

2217
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 2: it's military, police, you name it. Some places in sports

2218
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:24,360
Speaker 2: they've been able to take what we know about learning

2219
01:43:24,439 --> 01:43:26,640
Speaker 2: more we're learning and apply it immediately into division on

2220
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:29,439
Speaker 2: professional sports and law enforcement. It seems to get further

2221
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 2: in front ofther away. So my job and what I

2222
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:35,680
Speaker 2: really like doing is being very very aware of the

2223
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:39,040
Speaker 2: research and spending a lot of hours understanding that top

2224
01:43:39,080 --> 01:43:42,400
Speaker 2: of the PCs and reading it and then applying it

2225
01:43:42,439 --> 01:43:45,000
Speaker 2: to law enforcement. So it's the rule of thirds, like

2226
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 2: what is it that's the research? So what why is

2227
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:50,599
Speaker 2: it important? And number three is what's the application? Can

2228
01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:52,000
Speaker 2: I use it and train it? Can I use it

2229
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:55,519
Speaker 2: to understand something about investigation? So to me, it's all

2230
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:58,720
Speaker 2: about education and trying to get people smarter about where

2231
01:43:58,720 --> 01:44:01,760
Speaker 2: we're looking and what we're doing, and convincing folks to

2232
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 2: give us more time and give us the proper resources

2233
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:09,240
Speaker 2: to train our trainers so they can train our cops

2234
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:11,160
Speaker 2: to not just go home at night, but to do

2235
01:44:11,200 --> 01:44:12,360
Speaker 2: our jobs more effectively.

2236
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:15,639
Speaker 1: Man, this is going to help a lot of people.

2237
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:19,160
Speaker 1: And I've got a lot of law enforcement people from

2238
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:21,760
Speaker 1: all around the country that watch and listen to this podcast,

2239
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:24,280
Speaker 1: and I hope that they're paying attention. And some of

2240
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:26,840
Speaker 1: this eye tracker stuff that you're doing is genius. God,

2241
01:44:26,960 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 1: that's genius, especially being able to put people in the

2242
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:34,360
Speaker 1: shoes of officers in tough situations. Mike, I can't thank

2243
01:44:34,400 --> 01:44:36,639
Speaker 1: you enough. For giving me your time. I can't wait

2244
01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:40,640
Speaker 1: to have you back. You're a smart, smart guy. But

2245
01:44:40,720 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on and we'll talk to you soon,

2246
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:43,400
Speaker 1: my friend.

2247
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:45,360
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sean. I appreciate it.

2248
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:47,519
Speaker 2: To all my cops out there, stay safe, keep your

2249
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:49,519
Speaker 2: head up, and I hope I did right by you

2250
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:50,360
Speaker 2: guys in this session.

2251
01:44:50,439 --> 01:44:53,200
Speaker 3: So take care of yourselves out there. Thanks Sean so much.

2252
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:55,720
Speaker 2: It's been an honor. I'll come back anytime. Let me know,

2253
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:57,800
Speaker 2: give me a couple of days advance and I'll flip

2254
01:44:57,840 --> 01:44:59,439
Speaker 2: this camera and we'll get chatting.

2255
01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:01,439
Speaker 1: Somemrow. You got it, brother, all right?

2256
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:03,200
Speaker 2: Thank you, great, awesome man.

2257
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 1: Okay, everybody, that is it? Mike is I have to say,

2258
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 1: one of the most interesting guests that we've ever had.

2259
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 1: We're definitely gonna have him back. I'm definitely gonna have

2260
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 1: him on Battleground Live and live stream anytime there's a

2261
01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 1: police incident. I don't think there's anybody smarter as always.

2262
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:28,719
Speaker 1: Like subscribe this episode on Rumble. We stream exclusively there

2263
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:33,600
Speaker 1: now since YouTube banned us it. Listen to this podcast,

2264
01:45:33,720 --> 01:45:37,680
Speaker 1: share it with your friends. We need your help. Go

2265
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 1: to official Sean Parnell dot com. Get Battleground apperil. We

2266
01:45:41,040 --> 01:45:43,720
Speaker 1: just launched a Battleground a pail company. We love it.

2267
01:45:44,360 --> 01:45:46,759
Speaker 1: The motto of the company has never quit, Never surrendered.

2268
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:50,719
Speaker 1: It's it is a It is a clothing line for

2269
01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:53,400
Speaker 1: American patriots who loved this country. So if you love

2270
01:45:53,479 --> 01:45:58,120
Speaker 1: this country, Battleground Apparel was for you. As always, thank

2271
01:45:58,160 --> 01:46:02,040
Speaker 1: you so much for watching this podcast. God bless you all,

2272
01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:05,600
Speaker 1: and God bless this amazing country that we live in.

2273
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:06,320
Speaker 1: Take care