WEBVTT - Week in Tech: Broval Office

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for tuney into tech Stuff. If you don't recognize

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<v Speaker 1>my voice, my name is Oz Voloshian and I'm here

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<v Speaker 1>because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to

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<v Speaker 1>Cara Price and myself to host tech Stuff. The show

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<v Speaker 1>will remain your home for all things tech, and all

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<v Speaker 1>the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for listening. Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of iHeart

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<v Speaker 1>Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm os Voloshan. Today, Cara Price and

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<v Speaker 1>I will bring you the headlines of the week, including

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<v Speaker 1>new personalized pricing methods and Ohio's investment in AI weapons.

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<v Speaker 1>On today's Tech Support segment, we'll talk to four of

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<v Speaker 1>four Media's Jason Kebler about Mark Zuckerberg's role in a

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<v Speaker 1>TikTok band, and then we're back with another When did

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<v Speaker 1>this become a thing? This time we're looking into the

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<v Speaker 1>history of the PayPal mafia, all of that on this

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<v Speaker 1>Week in Tech. It's Friday, January twenty fourth, So Carrol

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<v Speaker 1>wa back.

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<v Speaker 2>We are back, and so is TikTok.

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<v Speaker 1>And so is President Trump. That's right, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>things returning, we do.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the great return.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's time for our news round up. Who's going

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<v Speaker 1>first today?

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<v Speaker 2>Me? Okay, you went first last time.

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<v Speaker 1>That's true. What have you been reading?

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<v Speaker 2>So you like to read Daily Mail and I like

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<v Speaker 2>to read Scientific American like it's US weekly. At the

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<v Speaker 2>nail salon, I don't get my nails done, but I

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<v Speaker 2>would read Scientific American if I did. And I saw

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<v Speaker 2>this thing that in a way, I've always been paranoid

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<v Speaker 2>that this is going on, but this confirmed my paranoia.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>The FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, which is what was

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<v Speaker 2>run by Lena Kon who we talk about often, has

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<v Speaker 2>released a report about something called surveillance pricing. What has

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<v Speaker 2>been found is that if you shop online, you may

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<v Speaker 2>be getting charged a different for certain items than somebody

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<v Speaker 2>else might be at the same store.

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<v Speaker 1>So, in other words, the retailer knows that you might

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<v Speaker 1>be less price sensitive and therefore charges you more correct

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<v Speaker 1>and Lena Connley FTC think this is not right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they're actually more interested in looking into if

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<v Speaker 2>it's happening, and it clearly is happening. What they have

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<v Speaker 2>concluded is that this is similar to the technology being

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<v Speaker 2>used to feed you targeted ads, which we've talked we

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<v Speaker 2>talked a lot about on Sleepwalkers and targeted marketing uses

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<v Speaker 2>things like our browsing history to serve us ads for

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<v Speaker 2>things that we were just thinking about, like Oh, I

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<v Speaker 2>need snowbooths. Now I have these snowbooths in my Instagram feed.

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<v Speaker 2>This would work similarly. You know, if you have a MasterCard,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, that stores a lot of information on you,

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<v Speaker 2>the types of things you spend money on, where you live,

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<v Speaker 2>you're banking information. All of the information that is accessible

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<v Speaker 2>to companies via these third party providers, whether it be

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<v Speaker 2>a Fyco credit its scored or credit card company, is

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<v Speaker 2>now allowing retailers to make decisions on pricing that I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think the average American consumer is used to. I

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<v Speaker 2>think another really interesting thing that we didn't get in

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<v Speaker 2>the actual report and that the reporter from Scientific American

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<v Speaker 2>elaborated on is that this also might be happening in

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<v Speaker 2>brick and mortar stores.

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<v Speaker 1>How is that possible?

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<v Speaker 2>That could be because price tags used to be something

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<v Speaker 2>that if you think about that thing that would like

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<v Speaker 2>put the price on that in and of itself is

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<v Speaker 2>now becoming digitized, so you can actually change a price

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<v Speaker 2>that's on a computer tag, especially exactly, and those prices

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<v Speaker 2>are you know, based on both expiration dates or consumer demand.

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<v Speaker 1>Lucky if a billionaires an never do theirn shopping, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>But Walmart, which is actually not being investigated, claims that

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<v Speaker 2>it's digital price tags can be updated remotely within minutes.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just an amazing thing to think about, which is

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<v Speaker 2>like you usually go into a store, you trust the

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<v Speaker 2>price of the thing. You understand that inflation might affect

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<v Speaker 2>the thing, You understand that something might be on sale.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, this is different. This is literally real time

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<v Speaker 2>price not gouging, but price changing. And there's one other

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting things which is these instacart smart shopping carts.

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<v Speaker 2>And these are actual shopping carts that have scanners and

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<v Speaker 2>screens on them. These are screens that advertise to you

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<v Speaker 2>while you're shopping. Wow, and then they connect directly to

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<v Speaker 2>your credit card payment system.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm actually looking at now that the tagline is you'll

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<v Speaker 1>feel like a magician each time you add an item

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<v Speaker 1>and pay on the cart.

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<v Speaker 2>This idea of like frictionless shopping is not all about ease.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's about selling you more stuff. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>would guess the beginning of fixed prices is probably a

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<v Speaker 1>late nineteenth century phenomenon, and before that, like it was

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<v Speaker 1>a haggle every time.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, and you know what you were just saying.

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<v Speaker 2>That was actually mentioned in the Scientific American article. They

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<v Speaker 2>went back to like early BC bizarres, when people would

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<v Speaker 2>just in Yiddish we call it handling, where it was

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<v Speaker 2>like there was no set price. It was on the

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<v Speaker 2>basis of what somebody was deciding something costs that day,

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<v Speaker 2>or how much could you negotiate or finagle.

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<v Speaker 1>And now we're kind of returning to the point where

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<v Speaker 1>it's a hagout every time, except way conditioned to believe

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<v Speaker 1>that the prices are fixed and our opponent, slash merchant,

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<v Speaker 1>has perfect information about us and we have no information

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<v Speaker 1>about them. So this sound this sounds pretty unfair.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to say that this is not totally negative, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like demographic data can actually benefit people who are looking

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<v Speaker 2>for financial aid, for example, And so in the FTC report,

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't like, oh my god, this is the worst

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<v Speaker 2>thing ever, we must change as we must take this away.

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<v Speaker 2>It was simply a probe into what are the ways

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<v Speaker 2>in which data that can then be harnessed by the

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<v Speaker 2>power of machine learning is affecting the way we shop.

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<v Speaker 2>It is possible that using our demographic data, using our

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<v Speaker 2>credit card information, it's possible that something might cost more

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<v Speaker 2>for me than it might cost for you. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think again, it's just something to be aware of, and I'm,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as we report on this show, very aware of,

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<v Speaker 2>like how are small little uses of machine learning actually

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<v Speaker 2>affecting the daily lives of Internet users, which we basically

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<v Speaker 2>all are at this point.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, the bargain we've had with the

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<v Speaker 1>tech companies for some time is we give them our

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<v Speaker 1>data and they give us their free services. But if

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<v Speaker 1>it starts to become a world in which like we're

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<v Speaker 1>actually charged on the back end for the way we

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<v Speaker 1>gw up our data, it makes you think very differently

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<v Speaker 1>about you know, Internet privacy, mvpns and all those kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is I think the FTC being like

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<v Speaker 2>how free is technology? You know, how free is it

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<v Speaker 2>to us? And like what is the cost? What is

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<v Speaker 2>the cost that we pay, the hidden cost that we

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<v Speaker 2>pay as technology users? Is it just a friction free

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<v Speaker 2>shopping experience? And the answer is usually now, So what's

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<v Speaker 2>up with you this week? What are you talking about?

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<v Speaker 1>So last week you showed me that video of a

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<v Speaker 1>gun being remotely maneuvered and fired all by voice command

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<v Speaker 1>using chat GPT, And then we've got talking about how

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<v Speaker 1>open ai has gone back and forth about whether or

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<v Speaker 1>their products are allowed to be used to develop weapons. Yes, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I looked into this a bit. And in October last year, Africom,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the US military command in Africa who do

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of drone surveillance and I think strikes on terrorists,

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<v Speaker 1>signed this multi billion dollar contract with Microsoft that included

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<v Speaker 1>open ai tools. However, when The Intercept asked open Ai

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<v Speaker 1>for comment, they denied they had a partnership with US

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<v Speaker 1>military and referred questions up to Daddy Microsoft.

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<v Speaker 2>So they're really the Russian nesting doll.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the Matrioshka of evading responsibility for weapons development.

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<v Speaker 1>But then in December, open Ai did in fact sign

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<v Speaker 1>a direct contract with a company that develops weapons andrill.

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<v Speaker 2>We talked about them last week.

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<v Speaker 1>The company is named after Arragoron's sword in Lord of

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<v Speaker 1>the Rings. In case you're wondering, I wasn't an lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Al Fleix, good old Palmer Lucky.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, Palma Lucky. Sam Altman, who runs open AI said,

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<v Speaker 1>quote open AI bills to benefit as many people as

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<v Speaker 1>possible and supports US led efforts to ensure the technology

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<v Speaker 1>upholds democratic values. Unbelievable first as tragedy them as fast.

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<v Speaker 1>I think on this upholding values with weapons. But Andreil,

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<v Speaker 1>as usual, you're early to the story and already talking

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<v Speaker 1>about it last week. Have had quite a couple of months, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>the big contract with open ai in December. This week,

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<v Speaker 1>the New York Times reported they're planning to build a

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<v Speaker 1>one billion dollar factory in Ohio, which is set to

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<v Speaker 1>bring four thousand jobs and will build tens of thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of autonomous systems and weapons over the coming years, swarming

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<v Speaker 1>cruise missiles for use abroad and at home surveillance towers.

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<v Speaker 1>Andreill's been part of the kind of border surveillance efforts

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<v Speaker 1>for some time. It's remarkable to me how this burst

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<v Speaker 1>of AI development over the last couple of years has

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<v Speaker 1>in a sense, remodeled the American landscape.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think it's not just a tech story anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking about American cities and infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>But I mean people often. I remember the old question

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<v Speaker 1>was like where is tech? The answer is, you can

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<v Speaker 1>see it now because it's building huge buildings all over America.

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<v Speaker 1>You mentioned Palmer Lucky.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you know what he looks like, the dude the mask.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's pretty close. He always wears a Hawaiian shirt

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<v Speaker 1>and flip flops. He has a goatee, and he plays

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<v Speaker 1>Dungeons and Dragons. He's described his character in Dungeons and

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<v Speaker 1>Dragons as quote, a chaotic, neutral wizard.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a dating app profile.

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<v Speaker 1>It is. I don't know who you'd find with such

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<v Speaker 1>a profile that it turns out you'd find a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of investors if you're a founder. He got his start

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<v Speaker 1>lucky building VR headsets in his own garage, and then, interestingly,

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<v Speaker 1>given what he's doing now, went on to work in

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<v Speaker 1>this clinic that worked with vets suffering from PTSD and

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<v Speaker 1>using VR headsets for what's called exposure therapy to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of help them with their PTSD.

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<v Speaker 2>Wasn't he sort of integral in the creation of Oculous Rift.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how he made a lot of his money.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's right, he found an Oculus rift, the VR headset,

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<v Speaker 1>which was acquired by Facebook, making him a very young

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<v Speaker 1>billionaire at the time, in his mid twenties.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't figure out what to do with it, but

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't care well.

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<v Speaker 1>And actually he left Facebook under something of a cloud

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty seventeen. Some claimed he'd been forced out because

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<v Speaker 1>of making a campaign contribution to Donald Trump's twenty sixteen

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<v Speaker 1>presidential campaign. Lucky then founded Anderil after leaving Facebook, with

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<v Speaker 1>support from none of them Peter Teel. So right now,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a good moment to be Palmer Lucky.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't even make the joke.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the joke. It's Lucky, It's Lucky, that's the one.

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<v Speaker 1>He's been quite vocal about the threat of China, about

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<v Speaker 1>a potential for war in Taiwan, about how the war

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<v Speaker 1>in Ukraine has shown the potential for developing new autonomous weapons,

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<v Speaker 1>and kind of raise the alarm bell that the US

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<v Speaker 1>may be falling behind the curve in all of these areas.

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<v Speaker 1>What I find very striking, though, is just a few

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<v Speaker 1>years ago the whole of Silicon Valley was more or

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<v Speaker 1>less unified against military contracting, and now quite the opposite.

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<v Speaker 1>Palmer Lucky recently tweeted, after spending a few days at

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<v Speaker 1>CS twenty twenty five's clear that the vibe shift is real.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone wants to help our military. Everyone wants to build.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobody's afraid.

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<v Speaker 2>Big beautiful buildings. That's what the president would say. We're

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<v Speaker 2>looking to build big beautiful buildings.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, and big beautiful weapons. I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>When we come back, we're joined by our friends at

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<v Speaker 2>four afore media stay with us.

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<v Speaker 1>So Caro, I know you are following the the will

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<v Speaker 1>they weren't they? So to speak of the TikTok ban,

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<v Speaker 1>how did you feel the moment it went dark?

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<v Speaker 2>I was there the moment it went dark online, the

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<v Speaker 2>moment it went dark. Yes, on the app, I was

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<v Speaker 2>fine because I somehow have not become addicted to TikTok.

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<v Speaker 2>But I have friends that were really in withdrawal and

0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:46.960
<v Speaker 2>using reels as methadone.

0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:49.640
<v Speaker 1>How bad was it for them?

0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Very bad? Very bad. Even you're okay, I'm fine.

0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:54.360
<v Speaker 1>It's back now, so you're fine. But what are you

0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:55.200
<v Speaker 1>find when it was off?

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I was fine. It was off. It was just the

0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 2>weird like referral to Trump in the messaging on the

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 2>app that I was like, what is going on here?

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? So when you log back on too TikTok, you

0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.439
<v Speaker 1>were greeted by a message which includes the line as

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 1>a result of President Trump's efforts. TikTok is back in

0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 1>the US.

0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.400
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like Trump wrote it, and it also sounds

0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:22.120
<v Speaker 2>like he did. It sounds like Biden's bad. Trump is good.

0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Use TikTok again because of Trump bite dance.

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.280
<v Speaker 1>The Chinese parent company of TikTok is sending a pretty

0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.400
<v Speaker 1>clear message there. But can I tell you who almost

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.360
<v Speaker 1>certainly was not jumping for joy?

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Who's that?

0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.360
<v Speaker 1>That is Mark Zuckerberg, and he ha to tell us

0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.760
<v Speaker 1>more about why not. On this week's Tech Support is

0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>four or four Media's Jason Kebler.

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.439
<v Speaker 2>Welcome Jason. It's good to have you with us again.

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this has been my favorite topic of late so

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 3>stoke to talk about it.

0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.000
<v Speaker 2>So last week he reported on something that I think

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>was buried in the pre inauguration slash TikTok chaos. But

0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.200
<v Speaker 2>you reminded us that what Zuckerberg wanted did most was

0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 2>actually a TikTok ban. Why is this?

0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:10.320
<v Speaker 3>In many ways, TikTok has become what Instagram once was.

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.520
<v Speaker 3>The simple answer is that if TikTok were to be

0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.680
<v Speaker 3>banned in the United States, the most obvious place for

0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.040
<v Speaker 3>people to go would be Instagram and Instagram reels and

0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:24.720
<v Speaker 3>so a TikTok ban was very likely to benefit Meta

0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 3>in an outsized way.

0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.320
<v Speaker 1>And how was zuck agitating for this?

0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.800
<v Speaker 3>So it's very hard to say exactly how involved or

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:39.960
<v Speaker 3>not involved Meta or Mark Zuckerberg himself or in pushing

0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.880
<v Speaker 3>for a TikTok ban. But Mark Zuckerberg has been sort

0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:49.400
<v Speaker 3>of beating this drum about competition from Chinese tech companies

0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.200
<v Speaker 3>since all the way back in twenty nineteen. He gave

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 3>this speech at Georgetown University where he sort of pulled

0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 3>out this line where he says, you know, a decade ago,

0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 3>so all of the top ten tech companies were American today,

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 3>meaning in twenty nineteen, six of the top ten were Chinese.

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 3>And that was right before a big congressional hearing about

0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.160
<v Speaker 3>Facebook's data privacy practices. Pretty Much anytime that he's pulled

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.280
<v Speaker 3>in front of Congress in any way to talk about

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.760
<v Speaker 3>Meta's monopoly or privacy issues, he starts talking about the

0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.280
<v Speaker 3>threat from China and how if there is more regulation

0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 3>from the US government, basically like a Chinese app will

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.840
<v Speaker 3>come in to fill that vacuum. And so he really

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 3>like seeded the ground, in my opinion, for what ultimately

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 3>became the TikTok ban. The Washington Post also reported back

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 3>in twenty twenty two that Meta paid a firm called

0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.360
<v Speaker 3>Targeted Victory to push the narrative that TikTok was dangerous

0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 3>for children, although Meta has denied directly lobbying on the

0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:55.680
<v Speaker 3>TikTok ban.

0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.640
<v Speaker 1>So I can imagine this. We've got to beat China.

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Message is is resident with the new president. But it

0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.800
<v Speaker 1>wasn't always plain sailing between zuck and Trump.

0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, in the aftermath of January sixth Facebook ban,

0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.720
<v Speaker 3>Donald Trump and Donald Trump spent time last year saying

0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:15.920
<v Speaker 3>that he wanted to put Mark Zuckerberg in jail.

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.000
<v Speaker 1>But instead he put him hashtag front row.

0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he has, you know, gone to mar A Lago twice.

0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.360
<v Speaker 3>He was at the inauguration and through a party, an

0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:26.800
<v Speaker 3>inauguration party in DC.

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:27.760
<v Speaker 1>I threw a party.

0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he threw a party. TikTok also threw a party

0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 3>for Donald Trump.

0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:32.360
<v Speaker 1>Well.

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.360
<v Speaker 2>And one of the things that's interesting is that Trump

0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.120
<v Speaker 2>tried to ban TikTok during his first term in office

0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 2>with the same sort of China hawk argument, right, and

0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 2>now he's stalled the ban by executive order for at

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.360
<v Speaker 2>least seventy five days, and when asked during the signing

0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.880
<v Speaker 2>why he changed his mind about the app, Trump said,

0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 2>because I got to use it, which seems to be

0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Mark Zuckerberg's nightmare.

0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.160
<v Speaker 3>I think that it is Mark Zucker's nightmare. I think

0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.160
<v Speaker 3>that TikTok being banned would have been a huge prize

0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.680
<v Speaker 3>for Meta, and they were so so close. I mean,

0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:12.199
<v Speaker 3>the the app actually went down. In the lead up

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.000
<v Speaker 3>to the ban, Meta started buying ads on TikTok to

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.480
<v Speaker 3>advertise Instagram, for example, as an alternative. They started buying

0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.000
<v Speaker 3>ads on Google saying, you know, come to reels. They

0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:29.360
<v Speaker 3>also rolled out this like affiliate program that very closely

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.359
<v Speaker 3>mirrors how TikTok shop works, so sort of trying to

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.639
<v Speaker 3>entice influencers from TikTok to come to Instagram. And so

0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.160
<v Speaker 3>I mean that there was like quite a lot of

0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 3>thought put into Instagram as a replacement for TikTok. And

0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.640
<v Speaker 3>now there's still this seventy five day delay in terms

0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.560
<v Speaker 3>of whether the band will actually be enacted. I think

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.480
<v Speaker 3>that Trump has made it clear he doesn't really want

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:59.080
<v Speaker 3>to ban this thing. Like they are using Oracle servers

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:03.160
<v Speaker 3>for American tiktoks more or less, which was part of

0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.479
<v Speaker 3>that earlier executive order that you referenced where Trump wanted

0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.520
<v Speaker 3>to ban TikTok during his first term, and as part

0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:14.440
<v Speaker 3>of that byte dance agreed to move Americans data to

0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 3>Oracle controlled servers in.

0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Texas, an American country.

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:24.960
<v Speaker 3>So an American company, and so Oracle shut down TikTok

0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.199
<v Speaker 3>servers on Saturday, which is why it went down. But

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.960
<v Speaker 3>then on Sunday, I guess Trump was able to cut

0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:37.359
<v Speaker 3>a deal with Oracle seemingly that convinced the company to

0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.400
<v Speaker 3>take the risk to put it back up.

0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, and Larry Ellison then is at the White House

0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:43.640
<v Speaker 2>on Tuesday with Project Stargate.

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Larry Ellison, who is the CEO of Oracle, and

0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.359
<v Speaker 3>Trump are friends and they've been friends for a long time.

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.560
<v Speaker 3>And so to be totally honest with you, a lot

0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.159
<v Speaker 3>of this seems almost reverse engineer to give Trump a

0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.000
<v Speaker 3>big win. The ban is incredibly unpopular, and it's incredibly

0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 3>unpopular among TikTok users who are a young demographic that

0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, Trump has really gone after in this election.

0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.880
<v Speaker 3>And so I think being able to message like Biden

0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.600
<v Speaker 3>took your TikTok away, and I gave it back, even

0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 3>if that is not exactly true. Is a very powerful

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 3>thing for Trump to be able.

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 1>To say, Jason, just close. I'm always fascinated by the

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.159
<v Speaker 1>law of unintended consequences. But there are a couple of

0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:31.280
<v Speaker 1>other apps which saw big, big inflows of users, one

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:32.440
<v Speaker 1>of which was red Note.

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So, red Note is an app that is a

0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 3>sort of Chinese competitor to TikTok. It's very popular in China.

0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.480
<v Speaker 3>I have a lot of Chinese American friends who have

0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.080
<v Speaker 3>been on it for years. It's very good for finding restaurants.

0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 3>From personal experience, I know that. But you know, in

0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.240
<v Speaker 3>advance of the TikTok band, you had a lot of

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 3>Americans downloading and going over to red Note. And it's

0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.320
<v Speaker 3>one of the few Chinese social media apps that is

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.520
<v Speaker 3>available both in China and the United States. And so

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:06.280
<v Speaker 3>you had a mix of people sort of ironically saying

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.240
<v Speaker 3>I would rather give my data directly to the Chinese

0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.720
<v Speaker 3>government or to a Chinese app than give it to

0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.200
<v Speaker 3>Mark Zuckerberg. And then I think you also had people

0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.520
<v Speaker 3>who just didn't like the fact that the US government

0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.159
<v Speaker 3>was taking something away from them for this sort of

0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:29.879
<v Speaker 3>amorphous national security spying reason. I think that there are

0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 3>very real concerns about TikTok and data privacy, but the

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:39.919
<v Speaker 3>US government has not made it's anything specific about, you know,

0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.640
<v Speaker 3>the types of spying that may or may not be happening.

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I think you're right, Jason, that the US government has

0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 2>not made it compelling enough argument for like why TikTok

0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:54.320
<v Speaker 2>should be banned. And you know, I think people don't

0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.320
<v Speaker 2>want to be TikTok refugees. Also because circling right back

0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.879
<v Speaker 2>to Zuck reels isn't as good. And you know, it's like,

0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.359
<v Speaker 2>if you want people to use reels, make it as

0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.120
<v Speaker 2>good as TikTok. And the problem is is I don't

0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:06.240
<v Speaker 2>think that will ever be the case.

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.879
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think you're right. And also, I mean, this

0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 3>was a big argument ByteDance is making, but it's a

0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:16.520
<v Speaker 3>very real and important argument that hundreds of millions of

0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:21.960
<v Speaker 3>Americans we're on TikTok, are on TikTok. You have millions

0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.359
<v Speaker 3>of small businesses, millions of influencers who make a living

0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:29.200
<v Speaker 3>on TikTok. And I think that this sort of fractured

0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.920
<v Speaker 3>Internet that we saw for only a few hours between

0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:35.240
<v Speaker 3>Saturday and Sunday, I found it to be like a

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.879
<v Speaker 3>really chilling and weird thing that I'm not used to

0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:40.840
<v Speaker 3>as an American who who I'm like, I have access

0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.000
<v Speaker 3>to everything on the internet more or less and suddenly

0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.119
<v Speaker 3>just sort of being cut off from that and not

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.840
<v Speaker 3>even having a very easy circumvention. This was sort of

0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.240
<v Speaker 3>like a blueprint for how other types of bands could

0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 3>work in the US, and I think that's pretty scary.

0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.040
<v Speaker 1>What will you be looking out for in the next

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.280
<v Speaker 1>seventy five days and beyond on this story.

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.359
<v Speaker 3>I think that by Dance is very unwilling to sell TikTok.

0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.800
<v Speaker 3>Whether that is because of pressure from the Chinese government

0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.400
<v Speaker 3>or because they have a good business and just don't

0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:16.280
<v Speaker 3>want to sell it, who knows. But I think, honestly,

0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.080
<v Speaker 3>the thing I'm most interested to see is whether this

0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.240
<v Speaker 3>just kind of fades into the background. And I'm wondering

0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.719
<v Speaker 3>if in seventy five days nothing changes and we just

0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:28.720
<v Speaker 3>sort of keep going, and you know, it will be

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 3>a question of whether the Justice Department is willing to

0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.080
<v Speaker 3>you know, enforce a law that was enacted by Congress

0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.960
<v Speaker 3>and upheld by the Supreme Court sort of for the

0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:44.280
<v Speaker 3>like political interest of the President. Jason, Thank you, thank

0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:44.800
<v Speaker 3>you so much.

0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:49.359
<v Speaker 1>Coming up we'll explore a crucial first family in tech

0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.240
<v Speaker 1>with another installment of when did this become a thing?

0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.440
<v Speaker 1>So Kara, Ever since the election of President Trump, any

0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.680
<v Speaker 1>number of tech moguls have been showing up at Mara

0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Lago and in Washington and have even taken on official

0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.360
<v Speaker 1>roles in the transition the new administration. But there's one

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.240
<v Speaker 1>group on everybody's lips.

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 2>The PayPal Mafia.

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.320
<v Speaker 1>PayPal Mafia, and so in today's when did this become

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:24.720
<v Speaker 1>a thing? We want to explore the history of this

0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.080
<v Speaker 1>powerful group to understand just how they went from smart

0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:30.840
<v Speaker 1>investors and founders to seats of power at the top

0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:34.399
<v Speaker 1>of government, business, and even social influence. Yeah.

0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.560
<v Speaker 2>I know these guys, but I sort of take the

0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 2>PayPal Mafia for granted without really knowing what their stories are.

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.360
<v Speaker 2>So I'm excited for us to do this, and you're

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 2>going to start us off.

0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:47.480
<v Speaker 1>So let me start just by going over some of

0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.719
<v Speaker 1>the members of the PayPal mafia who are now closely

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.600
<v Speaker 1>connected or actually inside the Trump administration. So we've got

0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk running DOGE, the Department for Government Efficiency, which

0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:02.439
<v Speaker 1>tried to recruit applicants back in November, saying, quote, we

0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.359
<v Speaker 1>need super high IQ's small government revolutionaries willing to work

0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.399
<v Speaker 1>eighty plus hours per week on on glamorous cost cutting.

0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 1>That was a tweet.

0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Great love it.

0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Then you have David OSAs another podcast host, the All

0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:21.120
<v Speaker 1>In Podcast, another South African and Trump's new AI and Cryptosa.

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:24.480
<v Speaker 1>This is an advisory position, so Sax doesn't have to

0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:25.960
<v Speaker 1>quit his day job of being a VC.

0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Is being a VC, Yeah, I guess that is it

0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:29.120
<v Speaker 2>a real job.

0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:31.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's the intersection of VC in podcasting.

0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:35.360
<v Speaker 2>It's obviously effect on the path heading there.

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:37.640
<v Speaker 1>And then of course at the center of it all

0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.760
<v Speaker 1>is Peter Teal. He doesn't have an official capacity in

0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 1>this administration, but he's the person who introduced Trump and JD.

0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:48.080
<v Speaker 1>Vance in twenty twenty one, a key investor in Anderill

0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:51.600
<v Speaker 1>and a significant donor to Trump and Vance for many.

0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Years millions and millions of dollars. And I want to

0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.719
<v Speaker 2>add that the guy who used to be CEO of

0:24:56.800 --> 0:25:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Teal's personal philanthropic foundation that is most famous for paying

0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:04.520
<v Speaker 2>kids not to go to college, has been tapped by

0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:09.639
<v Speaker 2>Trump to be Deputy Secretary of the HHS, helping RFK

0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Junior Maha make America healthy.

0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Again, make America healthy again. So that's where some of

0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:19.480
<v Speaker 1>the leading lights of the mafia are today. But to

0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:22.640
<v Speaker 1>understand why we call them the Papal Mafia, I need

0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:24.720
<v Speaker 1>to take you back to the fall of two thousand

0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and seven.

0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:27.479
<v Speaker 2>Q MGMT.

0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Two thousand and seven was, of course, the golden age

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:36.159
<v Speaker 1>of MGMT and prestige television. The Sopranos are just at

0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:40.080
<v Speaker 1>its final episode and then Fortune Magazine prints this photo.

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Credit to Robin Toomey for the indelible image. Cary, can

0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:46.400
<v Speaker 1>you pull it up and just describe it for anyone

0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:48.399
<v Speaker 1>who doesn't have it burned onto their eyes?

0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, red lacquer tabletops, a bunch of I mean, I'm gay,

0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:57.919
<v Speaker 2>but I still understand a good looking man. And these

0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 2>are a bunch of guys dressed like they belonged to

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Leonardo DiCaprio's pussy Possy.

0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>You're also vegetarian. There's a steakhouse vibe here as well.

0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Being steakhouse vibe. There's an oil painting of venice in

0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:14.960
<v Speaker 2>the background, a lot of whiskey and most absurdly, poker chips.

0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:16.520
<v Speaker 2>But it's giving mafia.

0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:20.600
<v Speaker 1>There's also a baseball bat giving mafia. Do you recognize

0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:24.199
<v Speaker 1>anyone in the picture. No, well, two of them are

0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:26.800
<v Speaker 1>somewhat recognizable, Peter Teal and Rehealth.

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Speedertael in Halfman. They just look different. Now, that's

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:30.800
<v Speaker 2>why I said that's true.

0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's been some time has passed. They're also

0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:36.440
<v Speaker 1>dressed kind of as they're going to a costume party,

0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:37.879
<v Speaker 1>which which doesn't.

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Help definitely, which they seem to be enjoying. I don't

0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:41.520
<v Speaker 2>know if I enjoy it so much.

0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:45.080
<v Speaker 1>So in this photo is almost every single member of

0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:48.440
<v Speaker 1>the PayPal Mafia. They've been using this term in their

0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:51.840
<v Speaker 1>own circle, you know self. Self given names of groups

0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:54.960
<v Speaker 1>can be on the embarrassing side, yes, but it was

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:58.480
<v Speaker 1>this photo, which is very iconic, that cemented them as

0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:01.400
<v Speaker 1>the PayPal Mafia as far as the wider public is concerned.

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:05.440
<v Speaker 1>Right in the front are PayPal founders Peter Teal and

0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Max Levchin, who Fortune called the don and the conciliary

0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:10.680
<v Speaker 1>of the.

0:27:10.640 --> 0:27:13.199
<v Speaker 2>Mass, and Max is the Conix the conciliary.

0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:15.920
<v Speaker 1>To get the full picture of how they got inducted

0:27:15.920 --> 0:27:20.919
<v Speaker 1>into this elite steakhouse brotherhood.

0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Dream, by the way, I just have to say, we have.

0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:24.360
<v Speaker 1>To go all the way back to the founding of PayPal,

0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:28.600
<v Speaker 1>which started with a different name, which was Confinity not

0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:31.920
<v Speaker 1>as Good, Not as good too much like connad by

0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:35.159
<v Speaker 1>Teal and Levchin. And then in two thousand they merged

0:27:35.200 --> 0:27:38.879
<v Speaker 1>with a company called x dot com, which it was

0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:41.679
<v Speaker 1>an online banking platform you know who that was founded

0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:46.119
<v Speaker 1>by By two thousand and one, the combined company was

0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:49.760
<v Speaker 1>known as PayPal. This is way before Meta or ABNB

0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:51.600
<v Speaker 1>or way way before open Ai.

0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's funny because I think back, I mean, two

0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:57.480
<v Speaker 2>thousand and one is nine to eleven. I mean it's

0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 2>that's really early Internet. And I, you know, as a

0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:03.400
<v Speaker 2>young person, was not interfacing with PayPal.

0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 1>This is more like Netscape. Oh yeah, a little bit.

0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:09.320
<v Speaker 1>Maybe he was at Yahoo even around those Yeah.

0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:11.119
<v Speaker 2>YEAHO was around because I used to use yahooligans.

0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:13.760
<v Speaker 1>But this was just a few years after Google was

0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:17.400
<v Speaker 1>founded in nineteen ninety eight. But there were some very

0:28:17.400 --> 0:28:22.000
<v Speaker 1>big differences between how these two future behemoths, Google and

0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:24.760
<v Speaker 1>PayPal were run, and a lot of it had to

0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:28.440
<v Speaker 1>do with culture. As that two thousand and seven Fortune

0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:32.520
<v Speaker 1>article explains, a few of the PayPal mafia had some

0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 1>choice words about the Omerta the PayPal culture. The former

0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:40.920
<v Speaker 1>CFO of PayPal said, quote the difference between Google and

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:44.680
<v Speaker 1>PayPal was that Google wanted to hire PhDs and PayPal

0:28:44.760 --> 0:28:47.360
<v Speaker 1>wanted to hire people who got into PhDs and then

0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 1>dropped out. It is, he said, a different temperament.

0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, right, and you can absolutely see how Peter Tiel

0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 2>would later incentivize people to drop out of college with

0:28:57.200 --> 0:28:57.800
<v Speaker 2>the foundation.

0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.200
<v Speaker 1>And these weren't even PhD students, were undergraduate, that's right.

0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:04.520
<v Speaker 1>But so you know, back in the early days of PayPal,

0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:09.560
<v Speaker 1>there was this concerted effort to not hire anyone affiliated

0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:13.440
<v Speaker 1>with any kind of establishment organization. Teal and Levchin wanted

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:17.640
<v Speaker 1>workaholics who weren't consultants, weren't MBAs, and weren't part of

0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:20.120
<v Speaker 1>the kind of elite establishment culture.

0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:24.360
<v Speaker 2>So like, who was the ideal profile for this.

0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, co founder Max Levchin said that hiring was sort

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:31.760
<v Speaker 1>of a process of finding like minded people. He said

0:29:31.760 --> 0:29:35.360
<v Speaker 1>he was looking for, quote, someone just as geeky and

0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 1>who doesn't get laid very often. For the most part,

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:41.880
<v Speaker 1>this worked. Elon was quickly ousted because he tried to

0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:46.120
<v Speaker 1>mandate some kind of technological overhaul, but that bad blood

0:29:46.200 --> 0:29:49.040
<v Speaker 1>that once existed has been put to rest, and according

0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>to Walter Isaacson, who wrote the most biography. Musk couch

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 1>surfs on PayPal mafia couches when he's traveling.

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Between hotel That's how you have one hundred billion? Is

0:29:58.880 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>you couch service?

0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Exactly? That's right. There are stories back in the day

0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:05.720
<v Speaker 1>of disagreements turning to wrestling matches again. Another preview of

0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:09.000
<v Speaker 1>that that the yet to happen cage fight between Musk

0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:13.840
<v Speaker 1>and Zuckerberg. But it was it was quite the vibe.

0:30:13.720 --> 0:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>And it's I mean, it's very funny because it is

0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>an anti establishment vibe that's so clearly yearns to be

0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:20.800
<v Speaker 2>this anti establishment.

0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Right. It's like totally like teenage. It's like a teenage

0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:26.400
<v Speaker 1>sort of sleepover on the you know, with this money

0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:28.640
<v Speaker 1>and as she drinks as that's right, as you are.

0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>But they're like, it's not a sleepover, it's just a

0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>gathering of boys.

0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:37.440
<v Speaker 1>But this mindset was really cultivated by the libertarian leaning

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Peter Teal and there is this inherent sort of culture

0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:45.000
<v Speaker 1>and personality of the Papal Mafia that may in some

0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:49.440
<v Speaker 1>sense help explain why these contrarians went on to be

0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:52.240
<v Speaker 1>some of the most successful entrepreneurs and vcs in Silicon

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Valley history. For reference, David Sachs is thought to be

0:30:56.240 --> 0:31:00.440
<v Speaker 1>worth in hundreds of millions, Levchin apparently about a billion,

0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Teal closer to ten, and Musk in the hundreds of billions.

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:07.080
<v Speaker 2>That money does not seem real to me, but whatever,

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:08.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't exactly know how to wrap my head around

0:31:08.960 --> 0:31:11.520
<v Speaker 2>that level of money, but it does seem like PayPal

0:31:11.960 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 2>was such a giant Unicorn success story that all of

0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:19.040
<v Speaker 2>these guys had enough money to keep seeding this huge

0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:22.520
<v Speaker 2>wave of big companies and apps that came as the

0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>iPhone and app store exploded and the digital economy boomed.

0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, there's a reason they call it the

0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:31.200
<v Speaker 1>PayPal Mafia. And if you've watched The Sopranos or any

0:31:31.600 --> 0:31:34.400
<v Speaker 1>mafia movie or TV series, you know like when you

0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 1>need a loan or when you need some money to

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:38.720
<v Speaker 1>start your business, you go to the godfather or one

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:40.960
<v Speaker 1>of the one of the captains and they gave you

0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.120
<v Speaker 1>some money to start your thing, and then they own you.

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:45.760
<v Speaker 2>That's right, they own your ass.

0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:49.640
<v Speaker 1>And apparently, you know, this relied most heavily on the

0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:52.640
<v Speaker 1>wallet and mind of Peter Teal, at least initially.

0:31:52.480 --> 0:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>So PayPal is like the patriarch of a very wealthy family,

0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:59.720
<v Speaker 2>and the PayPal Mafia is the offspring of that family.

0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 2>And when they all moved on, they put money into

0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:06.880
<v Speaker 2>different companies with similar principles to PayPal, or founded companies

0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:10.560
<v Speaker 2>based on their previous experience. And you know, now members

0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:13.240
<v Speaker 2>of the PayPal Mafia are some of the most influential

0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 2>players in Silicon Valley and DC.

0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think the whole tech industry in some

0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:22.520
<v Speaker 1>sense has taken on the ethos of the PayPal Mafia.

0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:24.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we talked about in the early days how

0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Google was kind of opposed in some sense to PayPal

0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Mafia and how they did business, and there's still some

0:32:30.120 --> 0:32:32.560
<v Speaker 1>of that, but suddenly this is now the dominant culture

0:32:32.560 --> 0:32:33.320
<v Speaker 1>in Silicon Valley.

0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:37.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think now, as I was just saying, traits

0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 2>that will carry into the current administration. You know, if

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:46.480
<v Speaker 2>that doge listing tells us anything.

0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:51.400
<v Speaker 1>Eight hours a week, lo pey no sleep No.

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:53.920
<v Speaker 2>But I just think in terms of why it was

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:58.840
<v Speaker 2>interesting is because you can just trace the roots of

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:02.719
<v Speaker 2>so much of the wealth that has come out of

0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:06.920
<v Speaker 2>technology in the last twenty five years, and it's wealth

0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:08.440
<v Speaker 2>that is so concentrated.

0:33:08.880 --> 0:33:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And to be fair, these guys are also good branders.

0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:14.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, like if Goldman started talking about the Goldman

0:33:14.640 --> 0:33:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Ges or the McKinsey mafew, you would also see like

0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:22.480
<v Speaker 1>the fingerprints of a very specific group all over corporate America.

0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 1>But in some sense, these guys weren't afraid to say

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:28.320
<v Speaker 1>the quiet part out loud and to kind of claim ownership.

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:32.560
<v Speaker 1>What I find really interesting is we look ahead, is

0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:35.640
<v Speaker 1>that you know, it's easier to be on the outside

0:33:36.360 --> 0:33:39.960
<v Speaker 1>throwing rocks, it's harder to be on the inside picking

0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:43.720
<v Speaker 1>up shots of lahs. So as this group has essentially

0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:47.680
<v Speaker 1>now become the mainstream and the establishment, how are they

0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:48.800
<v Speaker 1>going to deal with that? Right?

0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Because they don't want to be the establishment. I mean,

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:55.480
<v Speaker 2>that's what's really interesting watching the inauguration, is like, these

0:33:55.480 --> 0:33:58.520
<v Speaker 2>are people who built themselves in the anti establishment figures.

0:33:59.520 --> 0:34:03.200
<v Speaker 2>You can't really be anti establishment and be that close

0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:07.800
<v Speaker 2>to the executive branch, you would think. Or maybe you can,

0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:11.200
<v Speaker 2>and it remains to be seen, but I just, yeah,

0:34:11.239 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how much the libertarian ethos will really remain.

0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:23.279
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this week for tech Stuff. I'm Os

0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Voloshian and I'm Kara Price.

0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:28.560
<v Speaker 2>This episode was produced by Victoria Dominguez, Lizzie Jacobs, and

0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Eliza Dennis. It was executive produced by me Kara Price,

0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:35.960
<v Speaker 2>oz Valoshian and Kate Osbourne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel

0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:39.640
<v Speaker 2>for iHeart Podcasts. The Engineer is Biheied. Fraser and Jack

0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Insley mixed this episode. Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song.

0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:46.440
<v Speaker 1>Join us Next Wednesday for tech Stuff the story when

0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:49.919
<v Speaker 1>we share an in depth conversation with author Nathaniel Rich

0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:53.280
<v Speaker 1>about the psychological effects of colonizing mars.

0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:56.839
<v Speaker 2>Please rate, review and reach out to us at tech

0:34:56.880 --> 0:35:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. Do they want to

0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 2>hear from you