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Speaker 1: Thanks for tuney into tech Stuff. If you don't recognize

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Speaker 1: my voice, my name is Oz Voloshian and I'm here

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Speaker 1: because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to

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Speaker 1: Cara Price and myself to host tech Stuff. The show

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Speaker 1: will remain your home for all things tech, and all

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Speaker 1: the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening. Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of iHeart

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Speaker 1: Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm os Voloshan. Today, Cara Price and

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Speaker 1: I will bring you the headlines of the week, including

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Speaker 1: new personalized pricing methods and Ohio's investment in AI weapons.

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Speaker 1: On today's Tech Support segment, we'll talk to four of

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Speaker 1: four Media's Jason Kebler about Mark Zuckerberg's role in a

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Speaker 1: TikTok band, and then we're back with another When did

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Speaker 1: this become a thing? This time we're looking into the

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Speaker 1: history of the PayPal mafia, all of that on this

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Speaker 1: Week in Tech. It's Friday, January twenty fourth, So Carrol

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Speaker 1: wa back.

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Speaker 2: We are back, and so is TikTok.

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Speaker 1: And so is President Trump. That's right, a lot of

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Speaker 1: things returning, we do.

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Speaker 2: It's the great return.

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Speaker 1: So it's time for our news round up. Who's going

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Speaker 1: first today?

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Speaker 2: Me? Okay, you went first last time.

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Speaker 1: That's true. What have you been reading?

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Speaker 2: So you like to read Daily Mail and I like

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Speaker 2: to read Scientific American like it's US weekly. At the

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Speaker 2: nail salon, I don't get my nails done, but I

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Speaker 2: would read Scientific American if I did. And I saw

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Speaker 2: this thing that in a way, I've always been paranoid

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Speaker 2: that this is going on, but this confirmed my paranoia.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, which is what was

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Speaker 2: run by Lena Kon who we talk about often, has

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Speaker 2: released a report about something called surveillance pricing. What has

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Speaker 2: been found is that if you shop online, you may

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Speaker 2: be getting charged a different for certain items than somebody

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Speaker 2: else might be at the same store.

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Speaker 1: So, in other words, the retailer knows that you might

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Speaker 1: be less price sensitive and therefore charges you more correct

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Speaker 1: and Lena Connley FTC think this is not right.

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Speaker 2: I think they're actually more interested in looking into if

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Speaker 2: it's happening, and it clearly is happening. What they have

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Speaker 2: concluded is that this is similar to the technology being

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Speaker 2: used to feed you targeted ads, which we've talked we

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Speaker 2: talked a lot about on Sleepwalkers and targeted marketing uses

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Speaker 2: things like our browsing history to serve us ads for

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Speaker 2: things that we were just thinking about, like Oh, I

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Speaker 2: need snowbooths. Now I have these snowbooths in my Instagram feed.

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Speaker 2: This would work similarly. You know, if you have a MasterCard,

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Speaker 2: for example, that stores a lot of information on you,

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Speaker 2: the types of things you spend money on, where you live,

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Speaker 2: you're banking information. All of the information that is accessible

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Speaker 2: to companies via these third party providers, whether it be

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Speaker 2: a Fyco credit its scored or credit card company, is

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Speaker 2: now allowing retailers to make decisions on pricing that I

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Speaker 2: don't think the average American consumer is used to. I

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Speaker 2: think another really interesting thing that we didn't get in

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Speaker 2: the actual report and that the reporter from Scientific American

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Speaker 2: elaborated on is that this also might be happening in

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Speaker 2: brick and mortar stores.

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Speaker 1: How is that possible?

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Speaker 2: That could be because price tags used to be something

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Speaker 2: that if you think about that thing that would like

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Speaker 2: put the price on that in and of itself is

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Speaker 2: now becoming digitized, so you can actually change a price

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Speaker 2: that's on a computer tag, especially exactly, and those prices

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Speaker 2: are you know, based on both expiration dates or consumer demand.

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Speaker 1: Lucky if a billionaires an never do theirn shopping, that's right.

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Speaker 2: But Walmart, which is actually not being investigated, claims that

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Speaker 2: it's digital price tags can be updated remotely within minutes.

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Speaker 2: It's just an amazing thing to think about, which is

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Speaker 2: like you usually go into a store, you trust the

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Speaker 2: price of the thing. You understand that inflation might affect

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Speaker 2: the thing, You understand that something might be on sale.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is different. This is literally real time

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Speaker 2: price not gouging, but price changing. And there's one other

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Speaker 2: really interesting things which is these instacart smart shopping carts.

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Speaker 2: And these are actual shopping carts that have scanners and

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Speaker 2: screens on them. These are screens that advertise to you

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Speaker 2: while you're shopping. Wow, and then they connect directly to

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Speaker 2: your credit card payment system.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually looking at now that the tagline is you'll

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Speaker 1: feel like a magician each time you add an item

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Speaker 1: and pay on the cart.

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Speaker 2: This idea of like frictionless shopping is not all about ease.

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Speaker 1: No, it's about selling you more stuff. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: would guess the beginning of fixed prices is probably a

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Speaker 1: late nineteenth century phenomenon, and before that, like it was

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Speaker 1: a haggle every time.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and you know what you were just saying.

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Speaker 2: That was actually mentioned in the Scientific American article. They

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Speaker 2: went back to like early BC bizarres, when people would

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Speaker 2: just in Yiddish we call it handling, where it was

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Speaker 2: like there was no set price. It was on the

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Speaker 2: basis of what somebody was deciding something costs that day,

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Speaker 2: or how much could you negotiate or finagle.

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Speaker 1: And now we're kind of returning to the point where

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Speaker 1: it's a hagout every time, except way conditioned to believe

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Speaker 1: that the prices are fixed and our opponent, slash merchant,

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Speaker 1: has perfect information about us and we have no information

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Speaker 1: about them. So this sound this sounds pretty unfair.

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Speaker 2: I want to say that this is not totally negative, right,

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Speaker 2: Like demographic data can actually benefit people who are looking

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Speaker 2: for financial aid, for example, And so in the FTC report,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like, oh my god, this is the worst

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Speaker 2: thing ever, we must change as we must take this away.

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Speaker 2: It was simply a probe into what are the ways

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Speaker 2: in which data that can then be harnessed by the

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Speaker 2: power of machine learning is affecting the way we shop.

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Speaker 2: It is possible that using our demographic data, using our

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Speaker 2: credit card information, it's possible that something might cost more

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Speaker 2: for me than it might cost for you. And I

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Speaker 2: think again, it's just something to be aware of, and I'm,

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Speaker 2: you know, as we report on this show, very aware of,

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Speaker 2: like how are small little uses of machine learning actually

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Speaker 2: affecting the daily lives of Internet users, which we basically

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Speaker 2: all are at this point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, the bargain we've had with the

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Speaker 1: tech companies for some time is we give them our

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Speaker 1: data and they give us their free services. But if

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Speaker 1: it starts to become a world in which like we're

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Speaker 1: actually charged on the back end for the way we

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Speaker 1: gw up our data, it makes you think very differently

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Speaker 1: about you know, Internet privacy, mvpns and all those kinds

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Speaker 1: of things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is I think the FTC being like

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Speaker 2: how free is technology? You know, how free is it

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Speaker 2: to us? And like what is the cost? What is

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Speaker 2: the cost that we pay, the hidden cost that we

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Speaker 2: pay as technology users? Is it just a friction free

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Speaker 2: shopping experience? And the answer is usually now, So what's

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Speaker 2: up with you this week? What are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: So last week you showed me that video of a

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Speaker 1: gun being remotely maneuvered and fired all by voice command

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Speaker 1: using chat GPT, And then we've got talking about how

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Speaker 1: open ai has gone back and forth about whether or

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Speaker 1: their products are allowed to be used to develop weapons. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I looked into this a bit. And in October last year, Africom,

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Speaker 1: which is the US military command in Africa who do

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Speaker 1: a lot of drone surveillance and I think strikes on terrorists,

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Speaker 1: signed this multi billion dollar contract with Microsoft that included

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Speaker 1: open ai tools. However, when The Intercept asked open Ai

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Speaker 1: for comment, they denied they had a partnership with US

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Speaker 1: military and referred questions up to Daddy Microsoft.

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Speaker 2: So they're really the Russian nesting doll.

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Speaker 1: This is the Matrioshka of evading responsibility for weapons development.

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Speaker 1: But then in December, open Ai did in fact sign

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Speaker 1: a direct contract with a company that develops weapons andrill.

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Speaker 2: We talked about them last week.

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Speaker 1: The company is named after Arragoron's sword in Lord of

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Speaker 1: the Rings. In case you're wondering, I wasn't an lot.

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Speaker 2: Al Fleix, good old Palmer Lucky.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Palma Lucky. Sam Altman, who runs open AI said,

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Speaker 1: quote open AI bills to benefit as many people as

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Speaker 1: possible and supports US led efforts to ensure the technology

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Speaker 1: upholds democratic values. Unbelievable first as tragedy them as fast.

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Speaker 1: I think on this upholding values with weapons. But Andreil,

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Speaker 1: as usual, you're early to the story and already talking

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Speaker 1: about it last week. Have had quite a couple of months, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the big contract with open ai in December. This week,

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Speaker 1: the New York Times reported they're planning to build a

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Speaker 1: one billion dollar factory in Ohio, which is set to

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Speaker 1: bring four thousand jobs and will build tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of autonomous systems and weapons over the coming years, swarming

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Speaker 1: cruise missiles for use abroad and at home surveillance towers.

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Speaker 1: Andreill's been part of the kind of border surveillance efforts

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Speaker 1: for some time. It's remarkable to me how this burst

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Speaker 1: of AI development over the last couple of years has

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Speaker 1: in a sense, remodeled the American landscape.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's not just a tech story anymore.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about American cities and infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: But I mean people often. I remember the old question

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Speaker 1: was like where is tech? The answer is, you can

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Speaker 1: see it now because it's building huge buildings all over America.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned Palmer Lucky.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what he looks like, the dude the mask.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty close. He always wears a Hawaiian shirt

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Speaker 1: and flip flops. He has a goatee, and he plays

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Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons. He's described his character in Dungeons and

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Speaker 1: Dragons as quote, a chaotic, neutral wizard.

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Speaker 2: It's a dating app profile.

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Speaker 1: It is. I don't know who you'd find with such

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Speaker 1: a profile that it turns out you'd find a lot

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Speaker 1: of investors if you're a founder. He got his start

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Speaker 1: lucky building VR headsets in his own garage, and then, interestingly,

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Speaker 1: given what he's doing now, went on to work in

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Speaker 1: this clinic that worked with vets suffering from PTSD and

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Speaker 1: using VR headsets for what's called exposure therapy to kind

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Speaker 1: of help them with their PTSD.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't he sort of integral in the creation of Oculous Rift.

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Speaker 2: That's how he made a lot of his money.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's right, he found an Oculus rift, the VR headset,

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Speaker 1: which was acquired by Facebook, making him a very young

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Speaker 1: billionaire at the time, in his mid twenties.

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Speaker 2: They didn't figure out what to do with it, but

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Speaker 2: he doesn't care well.

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Speaker 1: And actually he left Facebook under something of a cloud

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen. Some claimed he'd been forced out because

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Speaker 1: of making a campaign contribution to Donald Trump's twenty sixteen

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Speaker 1: presidential campaign. Lucky then founded Anderil after leaving Facebook, with

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Speaker 1: support from none of them Peter Teel. So right now,

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Speaker 1: it's a good moment to be Palmer Lucky.

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Speaker 2: I can't even make the joke.

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Speaker 1: What's the joke. It's Lucky, It's Lucky, that's the one.

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Speaker 1: He's been quite vocal about the threat of China, about

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Speaker 1: a potential for war in Taiwan, about how the war

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Speaker 1: in Ukraine has shown the potential for developing new autonomous weapons,

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Speaker 1: and kind of raise the alarm bell that the US

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Speaker 1: may be falling behind the curve in all of these areas.

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Speaker 1: What I find very striking, though, is just a few

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Speaker 1: years ago the whole of Silicon Valley was more or

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Speaker 1: less unified against military contracting, and now quite the opposite.

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Speaker 1: Palmer Lucky recently tweeted, after spending a few days at

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Speaker 1: CS twenty twenty five's clear that the vibe shift is real.

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Speaker 1: Everyone wants to help our military. Everyone wants to build.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's afraid.

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Speaker 2: Big beautiful buildings. That's what the president would say. We're

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Speaker 2: looking to build big beautiful buildings.

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Speaker 1: Right, and big beautiful weapons. I guess.

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Speaker 2: When we come back, we're joined by our friends at

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Speaker 2: four afore media stay with us.

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Speaker 1: So Caro, I know you are following the the will

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Speaker 1: they weren't they? So to speak of the TikTok ban,

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Speaker 1: how did you feel the moment it went dark?

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Speaker 2: I was there the moment it went dark online, the

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Speaker 2: moment it went dark. Yes, on the app, I was

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Speaker 2: fine because I somehow have not become addicted to TikTok.

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Speaker 2: But I have friends that were really in withdrawal and

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Speaker 2: using reels as methadone.

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Speaker 1: How bad was it for them?

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Speaker 2: Very bad? Very bad. Even you're okay, I'm fine.

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Speaker 1: It's back now, so you're fine. But what are you

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Speaker 1: find when it was off?

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Speaker 2: I was fine. It was off. It was just the

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Speaker 2: weird like referral to Trump in the messaging on the

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Speaker 2: app that I was like, what is going on here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So when you log back on too TikTok, you

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Speaker 1: were greeted by a message which includes the line as

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Speaker 1: a result of President Trump's efforts. TikTok is back in

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Speaker 1: the US.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like Trump wrote it, and it also sounds

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Speaker 2: like he did. It sounds like Biden's bad. Trump is good.

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Speaker 2: Use TikTok again because of Trump bite dance.

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Speaker 1: The Chinese parent company of TikTok is sending a pretty

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Speaker 1: clear message there. But can I tell you who almost

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Speaker 1: certainly was not jumping for joy?

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Speaker 2: Who's that?

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Speaker 1: That is Mark Zuckerberg, and he ha to tell us

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Speaker 1: more about why not. On this week's Tech Support is

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Speaker 1: four or four Media's Jason Kebler.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Jason. It's good to have you with us again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this has been my favorite topic of late so

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Speaker 3: stoke to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: So last week he reported on something that I think

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Speaker 2: was buried in the pre inauguration slash TikTok chaos. But

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Speaker 2: you reminded us that what Zuckerberg wanted did most was

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Speaker 2: actually a TikTok ban. Why is this?

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Speaker 3: In many ways, TikTok has become what Instagram once was.

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Speaker 3: The simple answer is that if TikTok were to be

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Speaker 3: banned in the United States, the most obvious place for

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Speaker 3: people to go would be Instagram and Instagram reels and

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Speaker 3: so a TikTok ban was very likely to benefit Meta

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Speaker 3: in an outsized way.

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Speaker 1: And how was zuck agitating for this?

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Speaker 3: So it's very hard to say exactly how involved or

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Speaker 3: not involved Meta or Mark Zuckerberg himself or in pushing

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Speaker 3: for a TikTok ban. But Mark Zuckerberg has been sort

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Speaker 3: of beating this drum about competition from Chinese tech companies

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Speaker 3: since all the way back in twenty nineteen. He gave

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Speaker 3: this speech at Georgetown University where he sort of pulled

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Speaker 3: out this line where he says, you know, a decade ago,

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Speaker 3: so all of the top ten tech companies were American today,

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Speaker 3: meaning in twenty nineteen, six of the top ten were Chinese.

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Speaker 3: And that was right before a big congressional hearing about

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Speaker 3: Facebook's data privacy practices. Pretty Much anytime that he's pulled

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Speaker 3: in front of Congress in any way to talk about

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Speaker 3: Meta's monopoly or privacy issues, he starts talking about the

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Speaker 3: threat from China and how if there is more regulation

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Speaker 3: from the US government, basically like a Chinese app will

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Speaker 3: come in to fill that vacuum. And so he really

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Speaker 3: like seeded the ground, in my opinion, for what ultimately

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Speaker 3: became the TikTok ban. The Washington Post also reported back

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two that Meta paid a firm called

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Speaker 3: Targeted Victory to push the narrative that TikTok was dangerous

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Speaker 3: for children, although Meta has denied directly lobbying on the

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Speaker 3: TikTok ban.

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Speaker 1: So I can imagine this. We've got to beat China.

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Speaker 1: Message is is resident with the new president. But it

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Speaker 1: wasn't always plain sailing between zuck and Trump.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in the aftermath of January sixth Facebook ban,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump and Donald Trump spent time last year saying

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Speaker 3: that he wanted to put Mark Zuckerberg in jail.

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Speaker 1: But instead he put him hashtag front row.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he has, you know, gone to mar A Lago twice.

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Speaker 3: He was at the inauguration and through a party, an

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Speaker 3: inauguration party in DC.

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Speaker 1: I threw a party.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he threw a party. TikTok also threw a party

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Speaker 3: for Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that's interesting is that Trump

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Speaker 2: tried to ban TikTok during his first term in office

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Speaker 2: with the same sort of China hawk argument, right, and

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Speaker 2: now he's stalled the ban by executive order for at

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Speaker 2: least seventy five days, and when asked during the signing

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Speaker 2: why he changed his mind about the app, Trump said,

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Speaker 2: because I got to use it, which seems to be

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Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg's nightmare.

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Speaker 3: I think that it is Mark Zucker's nightmare. I think

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Speaker 3: that TikTok being banned would have been a huge prize

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Speaker 3: for Meta, and they were so so close. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the the app actually went down. In the lead up

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Speaker 3: to the ban, Meta started buying ads on TikTok to

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Speaker 3: advertise Instagram, for example, as an alternative. They started buying

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Speaker 3: ads on Google saying, you know, come to reels. They

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Speaker 3: also rolled out this like affiliate program that very closely

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Speaker 3: mirrors how TikTok shop works, so sort of trying to

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Speaker 3: entice influencers from TikTok to come to Instagram. And so

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Speaker 3: I mean that there was like quite a lot of

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Speaker 3: thought put into Instagram as a replacement for TikTok. And

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Speaker 3: now there's still this seventy five day delay in terms

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Speaker 3: of whether the band will actually be enacted. I think

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Speaker 3: that Trump has made it clear he doesn't really want

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Speaker 3: to ban this thing. Like they are using Oracle servers

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Speaker 3: for American tiktoks more or less, which was part of

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Speaker 3: that earlier executive order that you referenced where Trump wanted

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Speaker 3: to ban TikTok during his first term, and as part

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Speaker 3: of that byte dance agreed to move Americans data to

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Speaker 3: Oracle controlled servers in.

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Speaker 2: Texas, an American country.

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Speaker 3: So an American company, and so Oracle shut down TikTok

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Speaker 3: servers on Saturday, which is why it went down. But

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Speaker 3: then on Sunday, I guess Trump was able to cut

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Speaker 3: a deal with Oracle seemingly that convinced the company to

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Speaker 3: take the risk to put it back up.

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Speaker 2: Well, and Larry Ellison then is at the White House

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Speaker 2: on Tuesday with Project Stargate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Larry Ellison, who is the CEO of Oracle, and

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Speaker 3: Trump are friends and they've been friends for a long time.

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Speaker 3: And so to be totally honest with you, a lot

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Speaker 3: of this seems almost reverse engineer to give Trump a

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Speaker 3: big win. The ban is incredibly unpopular, and it's incredibly

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Speaker 3: unpopular among TikTok users who are a young demographic that

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Speaker 3: you know, Trump has really gone after in this election.

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Speaker 3: And so I think being able to message like Biden

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Speaker 3: took your TikTok away, and I gave it back, even

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Speaker 3: if that is not exactly true. Is a very powerful

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Speaker 3: thing for Trump to be able.

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Speaker 1: To say, Jason, just close. I'm always fascinated by the

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Speaker 1: law of unintended consequences. But there are a couple of

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Speaker 1: other apps which saw big, big inflows of users, one

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Speaker 1: of which was red Note.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, red Note is an app that is a

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Speaker 3: sort of Chinese competitor to TikTok. It's very popular in China.

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of Chinese American friends who have

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Speaker 3: been on it for years. It's very good for finding restaurants.

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Speaker 3: From personal experience, I know that. But you know, in

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Speaker 3: advance of the TikTok band, you had a lot of

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Speaker 3: Americans downloading and going over to red Note. And it's

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Speaker 3: one of the few Chinese social media apps that is

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Speaker 3: available both in China and the United States. And so

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Speaker 3: you had a mix of people sort of ironically saying

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Speaker 3: I would rather give my data directly to the Chinese

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Speaker 3: government or to a Chinese app than give it to

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Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg. And then I think you also had people

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Speaker 3: who just didn't like the fact that the US government

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Speaker 3: was taking something away from them for this sort of

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Speaker 3: amorphous national security spying reason. I think that there are

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Speaker 3: very real concerns about TikTok and data privacy, but the

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Speaker 3: US government has not made it's anything specific about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the types of spying that may or may not be happening.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right, Jason, that the US government has

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Speaker 2: not made it compelling enough argument for like why TikTok

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Speaker 2: should be banned. And you know, I think people don't

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Speaker 2: want to be TikTok refugees. Also because circling right back

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Speaker 2: to Zuck reels isn't as good. And you know, it's like,

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Speaker 2: if you want people to use reels, make it as

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Speaker 2: good as TikTok. And the problem is is I don't

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Speaker 2: think that will ever be the case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. And also, I mean, this

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Speaker 3: was a big argument ByteDance is making, but it's a

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Speaker 3: very real and important argument that hundreds of millions of

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Speaker 3: Americans we're on TikTok, are on TikTok. You have millions

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Speaker 3: of small businesses, millions of influencers who make a living

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Speaker 3: on TikTok. And I think that this sort of fractured

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Speaker 3: Internet that we saw for only a few hours between

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Speaker 3: Saturday and Sunday, I found it to be like a

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Speaker 3: really chilling and weird thing that I'm not used to

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Speaker 3: as an American who who I'm like, I have access

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Speaker 3: to everything on the internet more or less and suddenly

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Speaker 3: just sort of being cut off from that and not

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Speaker 3: even having a very easy circumvention. This was sort of

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Speaker 3: like a blueprint for how other types of bands could

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Speaker 3: work in the US, and I think that's pretty scary.

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Speaker 1: What will you be looking out for in the next

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Speaker 1: seventy five days and beyond on this story.

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Speaker 3: I think that by Dance is very unwilling to sell TikTok.

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Speaker 3: Whether that is because of pressure from the Chinese government

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Speaker 3: or because they have a good business and just don't

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Speaker 3: want to sell it, who knows. But I think, honestly,

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Speaker 3: the thing I'm most interested to see is whether this

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Speaker 3: just kind of fades into the background. And I'm wondering

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Speaker 3: if in seventy five days nothing changes and we just

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Speaker 3: sort of keep going, and you know, it will be

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Speaker 3: a question of whether the Justice Department is willing to

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Speaker 3: you know, enforce a law that was enacted by Congress

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Speaker 3: and upheld by the Supreme Court sort of for the

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Speaker 3: like political interest of the President. Jason, Thank you, thank

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Speaker 3: you so much.

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Speaker 1: Coming up we'll explore a crucial first family in tech

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Speaker 1: with another installment of when did this become a thing?

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Speaker 1: So Kara, Ever since the election of President Trump, any

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Speaker 1: number of tech moguls have been showing up at Mara

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Speaker 1: Lago and in Washington and have even taken on official

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Speaker 1: roles in the transition the new administration. But there's one

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Speaker 1: group on everybody's lips.

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Speaker 2: The PayPal Mafia.

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Speaker 1: PayPal Mafia, and so in today's when did this become

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Speaker 1: a thing? We want to explore the history of this

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Speaker 1: powerful group to understand just how they went from smart

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Speaker 1: investors and founders to seats of power at the top

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Speaker 1: of government, business, and even social influence. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I know these guys, but I sort of take the

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Speaker 2: PayPal Mafia for granted without really knowing what their stories are.

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Speaker 2: So I'm excited for us to do this, and you're

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Speaker 2: going to start us off.

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Speaker 1: So let me start just by going over some of

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Speaker 1: the members of the PayPal mafia who are now closely

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Speaker 1: connected or actually inside the Trump administration. So we've got

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk running DOGE, the Department for Government Efficiency, which

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Speaker 1: tried to recruit applicants back in November, saying, quote, we

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Speaker 1: need super high IQ's small government revolutionaries willing to work

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Speaker 1: eighty plus hours per week on on glamorous cost cutting.

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Speaker 1: That was a tweet.

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Speaker 2: Great love it.

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Speaker 1: Then you have David OSAs another podcast host, the All

438
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: In Podcast, another South African and Trump's new AI and Cryptosa.

439
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: This is an advisory position, so Sax doesn't have to

440
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: quit his day job of being a VC.

441
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: Is being a VC, Yeah, I guess that is it

442
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: a real job.

443
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: Well, it's the intersection of VC in podcasting.

444
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 2: It's obviously effect on the path heading there.

445
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 1: And then of course at the center of it all

446
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: is Peter Teal. He doesn't have an official capacity in

447
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: this administration, but he's the person who introduced Trump and JD.

448
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: Vance in twenty twenty one, a key investor in Anderill

449
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: and a significant donor to Trump and Vance for many.

450
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: Years millions and millions of dollars. And I want to

451
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,719
Speaker 2: add that the guy who used to be CEO of

452
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 2: Teal's personal philanthropic foundation that is most famous for paying

453
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: kids not to go to college, has been tapped by

454
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: Trump to be Deputy Secretary of the HHS, helping RFK

455
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: Junior Maha make America healthy.

456
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: Again, make America healthy again. So that's where some of

457
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: the leading lights of the mafia are today. But to

458
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: understand why we call them the Papal Mafia, I need

459
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: to take you back to the fall of two thousand

460
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: and seven.

461
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 2: Q MGMT.

462
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: Two thousand and seven was, of course, the golden age

463
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: of MGMT and prestige television. The Sopranos are just at

464
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: its final episode and then Fortune Magazine prints this photo.

465
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: Credit to Robin Toomey for the indelible image. Cary, can

466
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: you pull it up and just describe it for anyone

467
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: who doesn't have it burned onto their eyes?

468
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: Well, red lacquer tabletops, a bunch of I mean, I'm gay,

469
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 2: but I still understand a good looking man. And these

470
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: are a bunch of guys dressed like they belonged to

471
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: Leonardo DiCaprio's pussy Possy.

472
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: You're also vegetarian. There's a steakhouse vibe here as well.

473
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: Being steakhouse vibe. There's an oil painting of venice in

474
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: the background, a lot of whiskey and most absurdly, poker chips.

475
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: But it's giving mafia.

476
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: There's also a baseball bat giving mafia. Do you recognize

477
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: anyone in the picture. No, well, two of them are

478
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: somewhat recognizable, Peter Teal and Rehealth.

479
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Speedertael in Halfman. They just look different. Now, that's

480
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: why I said that's true.

481
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's been some time has passed. They're also

482
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: dressed kind of as they're going to a costume party,

483
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: which which doesn't.

484
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: Help definitely, which they seem to be enjoying. I don't

485
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: know if I enjoy it so much.

486
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: So in this photo is almost every single member of

487
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: the PayPal Mafia. They've been using this term in their

488
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: own circle, you know self. Self given names of groups

489
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: can be on the embarrassing side, yes, but it was

490
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: this photo, which is very iconic, that cemented them as

491
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: the PayPal Mafia as far as the wider public is concerned.

492
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: Right in the front are PayPal founders Peter Teal and

493
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: Max Levchin, who Fortune called the don and the conciliary

494
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: of the.

495
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 2: Mass, and Max is the Conix the conciliary.

496
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: To get the full picture of how they got inducted

497
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: into this elite steakhouse brotherhood.

498
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: Dream, by the way, I just have to say, we have.

499
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: To go all the way back to the founding of PayPal,

500
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: which started with a different name, which was Confinity not

501
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: as Good, Not as good too much like connad by

502
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: Teal and Levchin. And then in two thousand they merged

503
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: with a company called x dot com, which it was

504
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: an online banking platform you know who that was founded

505
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: by By two thousand and one, the combined company was

506
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: known as PayPal. This is way before Meta or ABNB

507
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: or way way before open Ai.

508
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because I think back, I mean, two

509
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: thousand and one is nine to eleven. I mean it's

510
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: that's really early Internet. And I, you know, as a

511
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: young person, was not interfacing with PayPal.

512
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: This is more like Netscape. Oh yeah, a little bit.

513
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: Maybe he was at Yahoo even around those Yeah.

514
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 2: YEAHO was around because I used to use yahooligans.

515
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: But this was just a few years after Google was

516
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: founded in nineteen ninety eight. But there were some very

517
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: big differences between how these two future behemoths, Google and

518
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: PayPal were run, and a lot of it had to

519
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: do with culture. As that two thousand and seven Fortune

520
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: article explains, a few of the PayPal mafia had some

521
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: choice words about the Omerta the PayPal culture. The former

522
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: CFO of PayPal said, quote the difference between Google and

523
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: PayPal was that Google wanted to hire PhDs and PayPal

524
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: wanted to hire people who got into PhDs and then

525
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: dropped out. It is, he said, a different temperament.

526
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: Well, right, and you can absolutely see how Peter Tiel

527
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: would later incentivize people to drop out of college with

528
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: the foundation.

529
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: And these weren't even PhD students, were undergraduate, that's right.

530
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: But so you know, back in the early days of PayPal,

531
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: there was this concerted effort to not hire anyone affiliated

532
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: with any kind of establishment organization. Teal and Levchin wanted

533
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: workaholics who weren't consultants, weren't MBAs, and weren't part of

534
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: the kind of elite establishment culture.

535
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: So like, who was the ideal profile for this.

536
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: Well, co founder Max Levchin said that hiring was sort

537
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: of a process of finding like minded people. He said

538
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: he was looking for, quote, someone just as geeky and

539
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: who doesn't get laid very often. For the most part,

540
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: this worked. Elon was quickly ousted because he tried to

541
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: mandate some kind of technological overhaul, but that bad blood

542
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: that once existed has been put to rest, and according

543
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: to Walter Isaacson, who wrote the most biography. Musk couch

544
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: surfs on PayPal mafia couches when he's traveling.

545
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: Between hotel That's how you have one hundred billion? Is

546
00:29:58,880 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: you couch service?

547
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: Exactly? That's right. There are stories back in the day

548
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: of disagreements turning to wrestling matches again. Another preview of

549
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: that that the yet to happen cage fight between Musk

550
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: and Zuckerberg. But it was it was quite the vibe.

551
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: And it's I mean, it's very funny because it is

552
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: an anti establishment vibe that's so clearly yearns to be

553
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: this anti establishment.

554
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: Right. It's like totally like teenage. It's like a teenage

555
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: sort of sleepover on the you know, with this money

556
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: and as she drinks as that's right, as you are.

557
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: But they're like, it's not a sleepover, it's just a

558
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: gathering of boys.

559
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: But this mindset was really cultivated by the libertarian leaning

560
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: Peter Teal and there is this inherent sort of culture

561
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: and personality of the Papal Mafia that may in some

562
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: sense help explain why these contrarians went on to be

563
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: some of the most successful entrepreneurs and vcs in Silicon

564
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: Valley history. For reference, David Sachs is thought to be

565
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: worth in hundreds of millions, Levchin apparently about a billion,

566
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: Teal closer to ten, and Musk in the hundreds of billions.

567
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: That money does not seem real to me, but whatever,

568
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: I don't exactly know how to wrap my head around

569
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: that level of money, but it does seem like PayPal

570
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: was such a giant Unicorn success story that all of

571
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: these guys had enough money to keep seeding this huge

572
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: wave of big companies and apps that came as the

573
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: iPhone and app store exploded and the digital economy boomed.

574
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there's a reason they call it the

575
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: PayPal Mafia. And if you've watched The Sopranos or any

576
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: mafia movie or TV series, you know like when you

577
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: need a loan or when you need some money to

578
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: start your business, you go to the godfather or one

579
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: of the one of the captains and they gave you

580
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: some money to start your thing, and then they own you.

581
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: That's right, they own your ass.

582
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: And apparently, you know, this relied most heavily on the

583
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: wallet and mind of Peter Teal, at least initially.

584
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: So PayPal is like the patriarch of a very wealthy family,

585
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: and the PayPal Mafia is the offspring of that family.

586
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: And when they all moved on, they put money into

587
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: different companies with similar principles to PayPal, or founded companies

588
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: based on their previous experience. And you know, now members

589
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: of the PayPal Mafia are some of the most influential

590
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: players in Silicon Valley and DC.

591
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the whole tech industry in some

592
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: sense has taken on the ethos of the PayPal Mafia.

593
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about in the early days how

594
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: Google was kind of opposed in some sense to PayPal

595
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: Mafia and how they did business, and there's still some

596
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: of that, but suddenly this is now the dominant culture

597
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley.

598
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: And I think now, as I was just saying, traits

599
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: that will carry into the current administration. You know, if

600
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: that doge listing tells us anything.

601
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: Eight hours a week, lo pey no sleep No.

602
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: But I just think in terms of why it was

603
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: interesting is because you can just trace the roots of

604
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 2: so much of the wealth that has come out of

605
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: technology in the last twenty five years, and it's wealth

606
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: that is so concentrated.

607
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be fair, these guys are also good branders.

608
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like if Goldman started talking about the Goldman

609
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: Ges or the McKinsey mafew, you would also see like

610
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: the fingerprints of a very specific group all over corporate America.

611
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: But in some sense, these guys weren't afraid to say

612
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: the quiet part out loud and to kind of claim ownership.

613
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: What I find really interesting is we look ahead, is

614
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: that you know, it's easier to be on the outside

615
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: throwing rocks, it's harder to be on the inside picking

616
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: up shots of lahs. So as this group has essentially

617
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: now become the mainstream and the establishment, how are they

618
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: going to deal with that? Right?

619
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: Because they don't want to be the establishment. I mean,

620
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: that's what's really interesting watching the inauguration, is like, these

621
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: are people who built themselves in the anti establishment figures.

622
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: You can't really be anti establishment and be that close

623
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: to the executive branch, you would think. Or maybe you can,

624
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: and it remains to be seen, but I just, yeah,

625
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't know how much the libertarian ethos will really remain.

626
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: That's it for this week for tech Stuff. I'm Os

627
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: Voloshian and I'm Kara Price.

628
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Victoria Dominguez, Lizzie Jacobs, and

629
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: Eliza Dennis. It was executive produced by me Kara Price,

630
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: oz Valoshian and Kate Osbourne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel

631
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: for iHeart Podcasts. The Engineer is Biheied. Fraser and Jack

632
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: Insley mixed this episode. Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song.

633
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: Join us Next Wednesday for tech Stuff the story when

634
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 1: we share an in depth conversation with author Nathaniel Rich

635
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: about the psychological effects of colonizing mars.

636
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 2: Please rate, review and reach out to us at tech

637
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. Do they want to

638
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: hear from you