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Speaker 1: Pushkin Jackie.

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Speaker 2: Hello, who calls it six thirty on Friday night?

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Speaker 1: Wait? Wait?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 1: I wanted to say one thing? Hello?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you do you know that a new season of

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Speaker 4: my show is starting?

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Speaker 2: I had no idea Listen.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to wash you great luck. Is this a

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Speaker 1: kiss off?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: From Gimblet Media.

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Speaker 4: I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight Today's episode Vivian

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Speaker 4: right after the break. This story begins back before the quarantine,

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Speaker 4: a time when people didn't start conversations with how are

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Speaker 4: you holding up? During those innocent days. We started with

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Speaker 4: the weather.

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Speaker 5: It was minus forty last week minus forty. My front

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Speaker 5: door froze shut. I had to use like a hair

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Speaker 5: dryer to get out of the house.

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Speaker 4: Vivian lives in Canada, and while I'm always happy to

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Speaker 4: talk about Canada, white Horse is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I once had an opportunity to go there.

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Speaker 4: It's not the reason why we're here. Vivian's reached out

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Speaker 4: to talk about something that happened twenty five years ago

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Speaker 4: that she still has questions about the death of her

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Speaker 4: uncle Ellio.

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Speaker 5: I grew up in Winnipeg. There's like nothing that sexy

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Speaker 5: about Winnipeg and my uncle it was like he had

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Speaker 5: just like breathed off of like a film set, Like

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Speaker 5: you wear this black leather jacket. He's like tight jeans,

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Speaker 5: and he smoked cigarettes and he just emanated coolness. I

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Speaker 5: don't really know how other to say it than he did. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: this swagger.

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Speaker 4: Ellio lived in New York City. He was a journalist

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Speaker 4: and had friends who were artists and writers. He gave

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Speaker 4: Vivian her very first journal, which he still carries around

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Speaker 4: to this day. In Vivian's memory, there was a lightness

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Speaker 4: about Elio. Everything was always for a laugh, Like the

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Speaker 4: time they were back visiting their family in Brazil and

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Speaker 4: Elo had Vivian and her brother full dozens of paper airplanes.

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Speaker 5: He was staying on the ninth or tenth floor of

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Speaker 5: this apartment building and it was like this really beautiful

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Speaker 5: sunny day and we like walked out onto the balcony

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Speaker 5: and just like shot off like one hundred of these

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Speaker 5: airplanes into the sunshine. It felt like electric and so

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Speaker 5: like free.

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Speaker 4: On the inside of Vivian's arm is a tattoo of

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Speaker 4: a paper airplane. It's there to remind her of the

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Speaker 4: freedom and lightness she felt that day. It's there to

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Speaker 4: remind her of Elli Oh. November seventh, nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 4: Vivian was nine years old. It was her brother's birthday

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Speaker 4: and the family was heading out to celebrate when the

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Speaker 4: phone rang. It was Elyo's roommate, a man named Marcello.

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Speaker 5: And Marcello just said straight up like Elu had a

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Speaker 5: seizure that's related to AIDS and he's sick, and that

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Speaker 5: was how the family found out that one that he

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Speaker 5: was gay, in too, that he had AIDS.

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Speaker 4: Ellio was in his mid thirties and had never told

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Speaker 4: his family he was gay. In fact, he often spoke

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Speaker 4: of wanting to find a wife and settle down. Over

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Speaker 4: the next few years, the illness advanced rapidly, so Vivian's

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Speaker 4: family planned out visit. Vivian remembers one trip in particular,

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Speaker 4: her dad packed her and her brother into the car

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Speaker 4: to drive from Winnipeg to New York, a twenty five

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Speaker 4: hour road trip to.

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Speaker 3: My dad's little Honda Civic with no air conditioning.

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Speaker 4: This is Vivian's brother, Eduardo. He's three years older than

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Speaker 4: Vivian and has clearer memories from the trip down.

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Speaker 3: It was like hottest summer on record.

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Speaker 6: Along the way.

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Speaker 3: We had to stop in convenience stores and supermarkets just

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Speaker 3: to cool off.

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Speaker 4: Eduardo says. His father brought along a video camera and

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Speaker 4: entered ELO's tiny apartment on Lafayette Street already rolling. Elio

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Speaker 4: was lying prone on the couch, not wanting to be recorded.

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Speaker 3: She turned his head from us, kind of pulling the

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Speaker 3: blanket off over his sighs his head and being like

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Speaker 3: embarrassed at how he looked.

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Speaker 4: Elio was thin and frail and hooked up to IV tubes.

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Speaker 4: Vivian's grandparents had flown in from South Paulo. Watch them

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Speaker 4: with their son.

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Speaker 5: I remember them not touching him because presumably they were

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Speaker 5: afraid to get sick. And I remember thinking that was

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Speaker 5: like really just like really weird and really sad. The

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Speaker 5: family didn't really help. They didn't help, like when when

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Speaker 5: Ali was sick. I guess my dad's conception of health

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Speaker 5: thing was like, oh, I'm going to bring the kids

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Speaker 5: for like five days and we'll come visit. But no

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Speaker 5: one like stopped their lives to like come look after him.

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Speaker 4: While the family paid for all of Elio's medical bills,

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Speaker 4: the person who actually did stop his life did come

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Speaker 4: look after Eli. Oh was the man who made the

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Speaker 4: phone call that November day in nineteen ninety two. Marcello

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Speaker 4: has almost no memories of Marcello, and Eduardo's memories are vague,

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Speaker 4: Marcello moving about the apartment, always in the background, referred

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Speaker 4: to by ellioh only as a friend. Growing up, the

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Speaker 4: name Marcelo meant nothing to Vivian. It was only later,

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Speaker 4: as a teenager that she learned Marcelo had been partners

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Speaker 4: with her uncle for thirteen years.

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Speaker 5: And I think part of it is because, you know,

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Speaker 5: unlike an aunt, like say Ellie was heterosexual, on dating

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Speaker 5: a woman, his partner would have been introduced in that way, like, oh,

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Speaker 5: well this is your aunt or this is a more

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Speaker 5: important person in your life.

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Speaker 4: Right, Elliot couldn't say, hey, this is your uncle exactly.

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Speaker 5: But in some ways, you know, even though it sounds

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Speaker 5: really weird, it's like he is kind of my uncle.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm, I don't think it sounds that weird.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's sort of like, you know, if things

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Speaker 4: had been different, if your uncle had married him, you

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Speaker 4: guys would have had a formal connection, and instead there

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Speaker 4: isn't exactly a name for him, and as a result,

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Speaker 4: you've lost that person who was so good to your uncle.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. It was obviously so like shamed in my

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Speaker 5: family that you know, we couldn't even call ell you gay.

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Speaker 4: The wound Vivian feels over the injustice or family did

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Speaker 4: to Elioh has only grown deeper over the years as

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Speaker 4: she's become better able to put herself in her uncle's shoes.

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Speaker 5: I didn't really clue into being attracted to women until

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Speaker 5: I was like twenty early twenties. I couldn't let myself

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Speaker 5: even think about that because seeing how the family like

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Speaker 5: treated my uncle, like, I'm sure it left this message

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Speaker 5: with me, you know that it wasn't a good thing.

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Speaker 5: This month I turned thirty seven, I turned thirty seven,

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Speaker 5: which is the same year that my uncle passed away.

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Speaker 5: And so at this point in my life, if I

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Speaker 5: had this illness, like terminal illness, and I was living

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Speaker 5: on the other side of the world and my family

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Speaker 5: didn't come, you know, to help.

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Speaker 1: Me, as Marcela did.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I don't even know him, like I can't

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Speaker 5: even remember like a visual of him, and yet like

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Speaker 5: I feel very connected to this person. I want to

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Speaker 5: find Marcello and I want to tell him thank you

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Speaker 5: for looking after Elu for that huge sacrifice that he made,

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Speaker 5: and I think I want to let him know that

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Speaker 5: I have spent, you know, so much time like thinking

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Speaker 5: about him.

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Speaker 4: After the break the search for Marcelo, I don't have

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Speaker 4: much to begin my search for Marcelo. Vivian remembers that

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Speaker 4: back when he was living with elioh Marcelo worked as

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Speaker 4: a security guard at the Museum of Modern Art, but

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Speaker 4: I can't find any record of his employment. When Vivian

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Speaker 4: told me about Elio's old group of artist friends, though,

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Speaker 4: she singled out one artist by name, a very famous

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Speaker 4: usical composer. And while the composer's number isn't readily available,

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Speaker 4: I do happen to have his cousin's number. Hello, Ira,

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Speaker 4: Oh shit, do we have an interview now? Potty mouth

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Speaker 4: broadcast or Ira Glass is cousins with minimalist musical composer

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Speaker 4: Philip Glass, the old friend of Vellios.

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Speaker 6: I seek sorry, sorry, sorry, be okay, give me a

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Speaker 6: second to turn on gear on my side.

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Speaker 1: Sure, okay, okay.

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Speaker 4: You never want to bother the people you admire, but

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Speaker 4: in the back of your mind you think, okay, maybe someday,

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Speaker 4: in an emergency, I might be entitled to a favor,

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Speaker 4: and then you ask them to write a preface to

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Speaker 4: your experimental novella published by a small Canadian press, and

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Speaker 4: then you ask them to introduce you at your book

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Speaker 4: launch that's only attended by seven people. This is how

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Speaker 4: I felt phoning up to chop yet another branch from

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Speaker 4: the giving tree, which is I a glass. So I

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Speaker 4: just wanted to I wanted to ask you for a

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Speaker 4: phone number. Okay, a cousin of yours.

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Speaker 7: Keep going.

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Speaker 4: Do you know who I'm talking about?

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Speaker 7: I assume you mean Philip.

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Speaker 4: Being something of a storyteller, the mention of Philip prompts

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Speaker 4: Irah to tell the story of when he and his

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Speaker 4: wife vacationed with Philip and his girlfriend in Italy.

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Speaker 6: He was finishing up at one of his operas and

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Speaker 6: he had an electric piano brought in and they were

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Speaker 6: in a bedroom like down the hall from us, and

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Speaker 6: so we would be woken up by him composing, which

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Speaker 6: is crazy.

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Speaker 4: And you were doing vocal warm ups, well he.

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Speaker 6: Was, Yeah, I was just practicing staying over and over.

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Speaker 4: Stay with us, Stay with us, stay stay with us.

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Speaker 4: Irah promises to reach out to Philip on my behalf

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Speaker 4: to see if he still has Marcella's phone number. Hey,

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Speaker 4: before you go, can I share with you a little

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Speaker 4: knock knock joke?

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Speaker 7: Sure?

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Speaker 4: Knock knock, who's there? Knock knock?

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Speaker 1: Who's there? Knock knock?

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Speaker 7: Who's there?

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Speaker 1: Knock knock?

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Speaker 7: Who's there?

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Speaker 1: Philip Glass?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I know that one.

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Speaker 7: I'm sure he knows that one too, Do you think so?

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Speaker 6: I mean, that's like, can I just say, like, that's

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Speaker 6: a level of fame that you or I cannot even

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Speaker 6: aspire to to have.

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Speaker 7: A knock knock joke named after you? Who gets that?

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Speaker 7: Who gets that?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 7: Who gets that banana?

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Speaker 4: A week later, Ira writes back, Philip doesn't have anything,

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Speaker 4: which is to say, Ira concludes at the end of

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Speaker 4: his email, knock knock, who's there? Not Philip Glass? And

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Speaker 4: so the search continues. Vivian's dad, Jacques, doesn't have a

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Speaker 4: current number for Marcello. The last time he saw him

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Speaker 4: was five years after Elio died. Still feeling guilty about

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Speaker 4: the circumstances surrounding his brother's death, Jacques had sought Marcello out.

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Speaker 4: I felt that the only person who could absolve me,

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Speaker 4: Jacques said, was Marcello. But the encounter was fraught. Jacques

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Speaker 4: later spoke of it with Vivian, telling her he walked

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Speaker 4: away feeling like Marcello was angry with their family for

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Speaker 4: abandoning elioh hearing this, I wonder if Marcello is still angry.

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Speaker 4: Perhaps after all of these years, Marcello doesn't want to

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Speaker 4: be found. The only other thing I know about Marcello

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Speaker 4: is that he'd been involved in AIDS activism. After extensive googling,

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Speaker 4: I discover an article on an HIV resource site from

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety eight written by Marcello's spelled with one L,

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Speaker 4: not two, as Vivian had remembered, being so young at

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Speaker 4: the time. Maybe there are other details Vivian is misremembering,

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Speaker 4: And sure enough it's in a nineteen ninety four staffing

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Speaker 4: report for the Met not the MoMA, that I find

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Speaker 4: the one eld Marcello. He now lives in San Francisco,

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Speaker 4: and in my excitement, I leave him a rambling, incoherent

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Speaker 4: message about how I know this must be so weird,

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Speaker 4: but I'm calling on behalf of Elio's niece, Vivian Marcello. Hey,

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Speaker 4: I'm so glad that you have the time to talk.

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Speaker 4: The very next day, Marcello calls back, and right off

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Speaker 4: the bat admits that his feelings about Elio's family are mixed.

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Speaker 8: It's it's complicated, it's very complicated.

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Speaker 9: It's just really it's a complicated history.

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Speaker 4: Marcelo unravels it for me, beginning at the same place

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Speaker 4: Vivian did November of nineteen ninety two. It was the

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Speaker 4: morning after Bill Clinton was elected.

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Speaker 9: We're sitting in a coffee shop reading the results of

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Speaker 9: the elections, and I had a grandma's seizure right in

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Speaker 9: front of me.

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Speaker 4: They rushed to a nearby hospital, where tests were performed,

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Speaker 4: and for the next few days Marcelo walked around in

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Speaker 4: a stupor. When they received the official diagnosis, Marcello picked

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Speaker 4: up the phone and made the call to Vivian's house.

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Speaker 4: The learning that Elio had AIDS was devastating. The disease

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Speaker 4: itself was all too familiar in New York City. By

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Speaker 4: that year, nineteen ninety two, AIDS had become the leading

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Speaker 4: cause of death in American men aged twenty five to

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Speaker 4: forty four.

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Speaker 9: You remember in the nineties an eight as you would

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Speaker 9: see people gone, can the sheikshare?

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Speaker 8: You know?

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Speaker 9: And so that was sort of like a certain look.

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Speaker 9: However handsome he was, he got that look. He had

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Speaker 9: lost control of his bomb movements.

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Speaker 8: He was in diapers, he was blind, he was I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Marcello was in his late twenties when it became Leo's

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Speaker 4: full time nurse. Ellio was sick for three years, and

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Speaker 4: just months before the AIDS cocktail became widely available.

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Speaker 8: He died very beautifully. He died very peacefully.

256
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Speaker 9: In those last moments. It was a beautiful night. There

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Speaker 9: was this blue sky, and there's stars and a crescent moon.

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Speaker 9: And as we looked up the sky, this airplane sort

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Speaker 9: of crisscrossed took the moon.

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Speaker 4: As Marcello speaks, I'm reminded of Ellio in Brazil flying

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Speaker 4: paper planes off the balcony.

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Speaker 9: And we waved at Alu and then we said goodbye,

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Speaker 9: and then he passed.

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Speaker 4: True to Jacques's telling, Marcello was angry with the family's behavior,

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Speaker 4: especially during the last days of Elio's life. That's when

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Speaker 4: things grew complicated. The family had set aside funds so

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Speaker 4: Marcelo could pay for the embalming. It had to happen

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Speaker 4: as soon as Elo died before the body could be

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Speaker 4: sent to Brazil.

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Speaker 1: For burial.

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Speaker 4: When Marcelo knew Eleo only had a day or two left,

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Speaker 4: in the midst of so many other worries and so

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Speaker 4: much sadness, he phoned Eleo's middle brother, Vivian's uncle, so

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Speaker 4: arrangements could be made, but Vivian's uncle didn't believe him,

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Speaker 4: insisting Elyo had more time The.

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Speaker 9: Day before he was dying. You know, I said, listen,

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Speaker 9: I need your guys to release the money because this

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Speaker 9: is going to happen. And he suggested that I was

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Speaker 9: trying to talk at the money, and I lost it

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Speaker 9: at that moment.

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Speaker 8: That's just when Baalistic.

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Speaker 4: The family had left Marcello the burden of caring for

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Speaker 4: elioh and now on top of that, they were accusing

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Speaker 4: him of theft. Marcello knew he wouldn't be welcomed as

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Speaker 4: a part of Elio's family, and so he did not

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00:18:24,970 --> 00:18:28,049
Speaker 4: attend the funeral in Brazil. He would later learn from

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00:18:28,090 --> 00:18:31,249
Speaker 4: friends who were present that he wasn't thanked. In fact,

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Speaker 4: there wasn't so much as a mention of his name,

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00:18:33,929 --> 00:18:37,489
Speaker 4: not at the service nor in the death announcement, which

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00:18:37,530 --> 00:18:43,010
Speaker 4: is to say Marcello's feelings are indeed complicated, but when

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Speaker 4: he looks up a photo of Vivian online and sees

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Speaker 4: her face, something is made simple.

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Speaker 8: She looks like al a lot.

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Speaker 9: She looks like you a lot.

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Speaker 8: She looks like of all the kids, she is the

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Speaker 8: one who looks like him a lot.

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Speaker 7: She looks like him.

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Speaker 8: That's incredible.

299
00:19:09,290 --> 00:19:11,449
Speaker 4: By the end of our call, Marcelo has agreed to

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Speaker 4: meet Vivian in New York, where you can introduce her

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00:19:14,129 --> 00:19:20,409
Speaker 4: to the people and places Elio loved best. Coming up

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Speaker 4: after the break, Vivian and Marcello stay with us, Stay

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00:19:27,689 --> 00:19:30,929
Speaker 4: with us, Stay with us, Stay with us.

304
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Speaker 10: Stay with us.

305
00:19:48,369 --> 00:19:51,369
Speaker 9: So we would shop on these blocks on Broadway because

306
00:19:51,409 --> 00:19:53,249
Speaker 9: there are designtic source vintage clothing.

307
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Speaker 10: So this is this is are we walked around here.

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Speaker 4: Vivian has flown to New York to deliver a thank

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Speaker 4: you that's twenty five years overdue, and Marcelo has his

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00:20:03,050 --> 00:20:06,889
Speaker 4: own agenda to introduce Vivian to the real Elio. And

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Speaker 4: so we're in the village on a tour through l life.

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00:20:10,649 --> 00:20:13,810
Speaker 4: Marcelo points out their favorite hans and tells Vivian about

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Speaker 4: Eleo's career as a journalist, the time he profiled the

314
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Speaker 4: Beat poet Alan Ginsberg showing up for the interview. Eleo

315
00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:23,289
Speaker 4: found Ginsburg in the midst of writing a poem.

316
00:20:23,409 --> 00:20:26,969
Speaker 9: Alan Gisberg starts yelling at him, saying, you interrupt the

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Speaker 9: moment of inspiration.

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Speaker 7: This poem is gone. It's gone, gone, gone.

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Speaker 9: I won't remember a thing anymore. Held.

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Speaker 4: Marcello also takes Vivian to meet some of Ello's old friends.

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Speaker 11: You must be the niece, how are you?

322
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Speaker 4: Ruth was a well respected New York tattoo artist in

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Speaker 4: the seventies and eighties. Nowadays, her work is exhibited all

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Speaker 4: over the world. Her apartment is where Eleo's New York

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Speaker 4: memorial was held.

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Speaker 11: It was another aide's death. It was another terrible, terrible loss,

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Speaker 11: and everybody here had experienced it or nurses, somebody, you know.

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Speaker 11: To the end, I mean as young people as people

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Speaker 11: in the thirties.

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Speaker 8: Right, So you're very lucky anywhere, very lucky you didn't get.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic that you didn't.

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Speaker 9: The irony had said, twenty five years we'll talk about

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00:21:23,050 --> 00:21:25,730
Speaker 9: a virus, and twenty five years later, celebrating out of here,

334
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Speaker 9: we are talk about a virus again.

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Speaker 4: It's early March twenty twenty, a few days after the

336
00:21:32,209 --> 00:21:36,010
Speaker 4: first confirmed case of COVID nineteen in New York. It's

337
00:21:36,010 --> 00:21:38,649
Speaker 4: that one weird week when we thought bumping elbows would

338
00:21:38,649 --> 00:21:42,369
Speaker 4: solve everything. In fact, here we are on a social call,

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00:21:42,609 --> 00:21:45,689
Speaker 4: playing it quote safe by eating the snacks Ruth made

340
00:21:45,730 --> 00:21:50,050
Speaker 4: from individually prepared bulls. Just days later, schools across the

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00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:56,369
Speaker 4: city would be closed, Restaurants, stores and offices all shut.

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Speaker 4: Like with the beginning of the AIDS pandemic, our government

343
00:21:59,530 --> 00:22:02,649
Speaker 4: would again fail in its response, our medical system would

344
00:22:02,649 --> 00:22:07,570
Speaker 4: again prove ill equipped, misinformation would abound, and doctor Anthony Fauci,

345
00:22:07,770 --> 00:22:11,290
Speaker 4: who decades earlier led tactical charge against the AIDS outbreak,

346
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Speaker 4: would be back on TV picking up the slack. In

347
00:22:20,290 --> 00:22:23,489
Speaker 4: contrast to the religious service in Brazil, Ruth says that

348
00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:26,090
Speaker 4: the memorial at her place for Elio that day was

349
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Speaker 4: a raucous affair, you know.

350
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Speaker 9: With a conga line announcing the conga around this apartment.

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Speaker 11: Well, all these good looking guys in one room. You know,

352
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Speaker 11: it wasn't going to stay sad for two.

353
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Speaker 12: It was the best funeral ever anywhere.

354
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Speaker 8: I remember being drunk and stoned.

355
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Speaker 4: We also pay a visit to Ken, an artist and

356
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Speaker 4: an old boyfriend of Ellio's. The artist's life has been

357
00:22:52,689 --> 00:22:55,289
Speaker 4: good to Ken. He looks far younger than his seventy

358
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Speaker 4: five years.

359
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Speaker 8: You haven't seen the clothes off.

360
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Speaker 12: Gravity tends to do very nasty things to budys.

361
00:23:02,929 --> 00:23:05,090
Speaker 4: Ken tells us about the trip he and Elio took

362
00:23:05,129 --> 00:23:08,329
Speaker 4: to Mexico early on in their relationship. Ken had been

363
00:23:08,369 --> 00:23:10,129
Speaker 4: going through a phase at the time where he was

364
00:23:10,169 --> 00:23:14,129
Speaker 4: wearing green contact lenses. Elio had never seen Ken without them.

365
00:23:14,409 --> 00:23:16,609
Speaker 4: I would always tell Ken how much he loved his

366
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Speaker 4: beautiful green eyes.

367
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Speaker 12: I said, shit, how am I going to tell him

368
00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:24,250
Speaker 12: that these beautiful green eyes are fake?

369
00:23:25,889 --> 00:23:27,889
Speaker 8: So I decided I'm not going to tell him. What

370
00:23:28,010 --> 00:23:29,689
Speaker 8: the hell?

371
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Speaker 12: So we go to Mexico and I got something in

372
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Speaker 12: my eyes and they started bleeding.

373
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Speaker 8: We have to go to a hospital. We got to

374
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Speaker 8: the clinic.

375
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Speaker 12: The guy patched my eyes up, said you'll be blind

376
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Speaker 12: for twenty four hours. So the next day I took

377
00:23:49,609 --> 00:23:52,449
Speaker 12: the patches off, and then Eliot's looking at me and he.

378
00:23:52,369 --> 00:23:57,369
Speaker 8: Goes, oh my god. I said, what he said, your

379
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Speaker 8: eyes changed color?

380
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Speaker 7: So I tell this is perfect.

381
00:24:01,689 --> 00:24:03,649
Speaker 8: I looked in the mirror and said, oh my god,

382
00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:07,369
Speaker 8: they did. So that ended that.

383
00:24:07,409 --> 00:24:10,330
Speaker 12: I don't know if he ever found out.

384
00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:19,090
Speaker 8: Elliot melted everybody down that he met.

385
00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:23,330
Speaker 12: He was so charming. I never met anyone you couldn't

386
00:24:23,369 --> 00:24:27,050
Speaker 12: be mad at him. I tried so hard to be

387
00:24:27,129 --> 00:24:29,609
Speaker 12: mad at him so many times, and you couldn't be

388
00:24:29,609 --> 00:24:30,370
Speaker 12: mad at him.

389
00:24:31,209 --> 00:24:32,889
Speaker 4: Ken directs his gaze at Vivianne.

390
00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:37,289
Speaker 8: You're lucky, You're lucky to have had an uncle like Elleo.

391
00:24:39,369 --> 00:24:42,369
Speaker 4: Vivian is basking in Ken's praise of her uncle. The

392
00:24:42,449 --> 00:24:46,689
Speaker 4: room feels warm and friendly until Ken opens his mouth again.

393
00:24:47,209 --> 00:24:49,649
Speaker 8: I have to say his family.

394
00:24:49,369 --> 00:24:53,689
Speaker 4: Was horrible, Ken says his but he is still looking

395
00:24:53,689 --> 00:24:57,010
Speaker 4: at Vivianne. He might as well have said your your

396
00:24:57,090 --> 00:25:00,969
Speaker 4: family was horrible. Ken is being honest, but it sucks

397
00:25:01,010 --> 00:25:01,929
Speaker 4: the air out of the room.

398
00:25:02,570 --> 00:25:07,449
Speaker 12: Truly horrible. It was shocking to me. It was really

399
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:10,689
Speaker 12: shocking to me. When his mother came. She was so

400
00:25:10,929 --> 00:25:14,889
Speaker 12: cold and so distant from l e Oh.

401
00:25:16,889 --> 00:25:21,810
Speaker 4: I know, of course, Vivian knows. It's why she's here.

402
00:25:25,409 --> 00:25:31,530
Speaker 4: Come on this way, Vivian, Marcelo and I are at

403
00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:34,689
Speaker 4: my office all day long. Marcello's been playing to her

404
00:25:34,689 --> 00:25:37,449
Speaker 4: guide to Eleo's old life. But I want him and

405
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:39,930
Speaker 4: Vivian to get a chance to connect one on one.

406
00:25:40,570 --> 00:25:43,329
Speaker 8: Sit down, Okay, sit here, yeah, thank you.

407
00:25:43,649 --> 00:25:47,209
Speaker 4: Marcello sits on the couch, knees pressed together. Vivian is

408
00:25:47,209 --> 00:25:50,369
Speaker 4: seated across from him in an armchair, hands tucked between

409
00:25:50,409 --> 00:25:53,969
Speaker 4: her thighs. She's been waiting all day, all day, and

410
00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:57,889
Speaker 4: twenty five years for the chance to thank Marcello, and

411
00:25:57,929 --> 00:26:00,889
Speaker 4: so she stumbles her way forward, beginning with the ways

412
00:26:00,889 --> 00:26:02,609
Speaker 4: in which her family let Elo down.

413
00:26:03,649 --> 00:26:06,850
Speaker 5: I feel like the family, I feel like there was

414
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:11,130
Speaker 5: like kind of like this like internalized shame. I don't know,

415
00:26:11,169 --> 00:26:13,570
Speaker 5: It's like that side of the family couldn't really see

416
00:26:13,609 --> 00:26:16,489
Speaker 5: past that that he was gay, and that was like

417
00:26:16,889 --> 00:26:21,329
Speaker 5: that lasting memory was like that shape.

418
00:26:21,449 --> 00:26:22,970
Speaker 9: Yeah, but I also feel like.

419
00:26:28,689 --> 00:26:32,009
Speaker 4: Marcello interrupts Vivian before she can get very far, but

420
00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:35,489
Speaker 4: almost immediately trails off. He looks down at his hands

421
00:26:35,490 --> 00:26:38,010
Speaker 4: in his lap and adjusts his feet on the carpet.

422
00:26:38,689 --> 00:26:41,050
Speaker 4: When he speaks again, he speaks softly.

423
00:26:42,850 --> 00:26:49,009
Speaker 9: I feel compelled to say something. It would be simplistic

424
00:26:49,129 --> 00:26:54,769
Speaker 9: to say that just because the family didn't accept his

425
00:26:55,090 --> 00:27:00,250
Speaker 9: being gay, this difficulty is not all on your family side.

426
00:27:01,010 --> 00:27:04,929
Speaker 9: That was also Elia's inability to be who he was

427
00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:06,690
Speaker 9: fully really yeah.

428
00:27:07,050 --> 00:27:08,889
Speaker 5: Yeah.

429
00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:12,210
Speaker 4: According to Marcello, Eleo never fully embraced his own gay

430
00:27:12,209 --> 00:27:15,010
Speaker 4: identity and so was never honest with the family about

431
00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:15,570
Speaker 4: who he was.

432
00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:19,449
Speaker 9: He was gay, had a partner for ten years, you know,

433
00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:22,850
Speaker 9: he was HIV positive, So all of that sort of

434
00:27:23,889 --> 00:27:27,970
Speaker 9: came out for the family side and the worst possible way.

435
00:27:29,209 --> 00:27:34,290
Speaker 9: So there's a lot here of broken trust.

436
00:27:34,689 --> 00:27:37,129
Speaker 4: Marcello's own family knew he was gay by the time

437
00:27:37,169 --> 00:27:39,850
Speaker 4: he was in his late teens, knew that Eleo wasn't

438
00:27:39,889 --> 00:27:43,050
Speaker 4: just a roommate. Marcello had been wanting Eleo to be

439
00:27:43,090 --> 00:27:47,129
Speaker 4: more transparent with his family for years. Instead, when the

440
00:27:47,169 --> 00:27:50,050
Speaker 4: family was around, Marcello says, Elo made him feel like

441
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:53,490
Speaker 4: a mistress, like he had to disappear. So as much

442
00:27:53,490 --> 00:27:57,210
Speaker 4: as the family didn't acknowledge Marcello, Eleo didn't acknowledge Marcello

443
00:27:57,330 --> 00:28:01,129
Speaker 4: to the family either. Although they were a couple, Eleo

444
00:28:01,250 --> 00:28:04,410
Speaker 4: refused to fully commit to Marcello, continuing to date other

445
00:28:04,449 --> 00:28:09,330
Speaker 4: people like Ken. It was painful for Marcello. In fact,

446
00:28:09,409 --> 00:28:11,609
Speaker 4: Marceau admits that he'd been on the verge of breaking

447
00:28:11,689 --> 00:28:14,249
Speaker 4: up with Elio when they found out he had AIDS.

448
00:28:15,449 --> 00:28:18,850
Speaker 10: But made aue this ray of light.

449
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:23,609
Speaker 9: Being joyful also made him more difficult to pin down

450
00:28:24,250 --> 00:28:29,689
Speaker 9: and taking responsibility and ownership for things that you do

451
00:28:30,369 --> 00:28:34,289
Speaker 9: as you become a grin up. So I want to

452
00:28:34,330 --> 00:28:37,649
Speaker 9: sort of take a bit of the weight from your family.

453
00:28:37,889 --> 00:28:41,209
Speaker 9: Just there's a little bit on his side as well.

454
00:28:42,130 --> 00:28:43,170
Speaker 8: There was his.

455
00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:50,490
Speaker 9: Own like internal internals, paral boughs. So I think there's

456
00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:54,490
Speaker 9: the dartful value, and there's the chicken Alio. There is

457
00:28:54,850 --> 00:28:58,610
Speaker 9: all of this a sort of wrapped and this fantastic

458
00:28:58,690 --> 00:29:02,049
Speaker 9: human being, you know, and he's just a person.

459
00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:10,529
Speaker 5: I think I relate to maybe the chicken val. Like

460
00:29:10,650 --> 00:29:13,850
Speaker 5: in my early twenties, like I started dating women and

461
00:29:15,650 --> 00:29:18,490
Speaker 5: it was something that I shared with my dad and

462
00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:23,610
Speaker 5: my brother. My mom was actually like going through some

463
00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:26,530
Speaker 5: difficult stuff like in my twenties, And to be honest,

464
00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:30,210
Speaker 5: she actually still doesn't know, but I guess she soon.

465
00:29:30,290 --> 00:29:35,930
Speaker 9: Well, yes, listen, if you have white stuff, it's faster

466
00:29:36,090 --> 00:29:39,010
Speaker 9: than you. But if you address it, it's a way

467
00:29:39,050 --> 00:29:41,050
Speaker 9: of connecting, connecting.

468
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:45,009
Speaker 4: Marcella was encouraging Vivian to not hide who she is

469
00:29:45,410 --> 00:29:48,010
Speaker 4: the way Alio did until he got sick.

470
00:29:48,610 --> 00:29:51,690
Speaker 9: He's softened, He softened you know.

471
00:29:51,890 --> 00:29:56,930
Speaker 13: I it might sound a little sanctimonious or piles on

472
00:29:56,970 --> 00:30:01,130
Speaker 13: my part, you know, but I loved him throughout, thick

473
00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:07,170
Speaker 13: and thin, and when he got sick, he allowed me

474
00:30:07,209 --> 00:30:10,450
Speaker 13: to love him in a way that he couldn't before.

475
00:30:11,410 --> 00:30:12,170
Speaker 1: We really.

476
00:30:14,530 --> 00:30:17,930
Speaker 9: We're a couple in a way that we had never

477
00:30:17,970 --> 00:30:18,610
Speaker 9: been before.

478
00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:23,330
Speaker 4: From Marcelo, those last days offered some of his happiest

479
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:28,050
Speaker 4: memories of their relationship. Dying allowed Elio to finally grow up.

480
00:30:34,610 --> 00:30:38,250
Speaker 9: Sometimes he would hallucinate and he would go to parties

481
00:30:38,930 --> 00:30:41,890
Speaker 9: in his hand. I remember this one that was a

482
00:30:41,970 --> 00:30:46,810
Speaker 9: party by the Russian embassy, and he was talking about

483
00:30:46,850 --> 00:30:49,010
Speaker 9: all the people he was meeting at the Russian embassy,

484
00:30:49,050 --> 00:30:51,010
Speaker 9: and he was in bed and he would do.

485
00:30:51,010 --> 00:30:55,170
Speaker 4: This Marcello minds smoking a cigarette.

486
00:30:55,610 --> 00:30:58,850
Speaker 9: But in that state. I remember one moment that is

487
00:30:59,970 --> 00:31:04,529
Speaker 9: the most precious moment of all days before he died,

488
00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:09,529
Speaker 9: I said to him, I love you, and he was

489
00:31:09,850 --> 00:31:16,290
Speaker 9: he had no cognition, his smile like year to year,

490
00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:19,050
Speaker 9: and I never forgot that.

491
00:31:20,490 --> 00:31:22,690
Speaker 8: So I love.

492
00:31:22,650 --> 00:31:28,050
Speaker 9: Him very very very much, and he loved me back.

493
00:31:28,850 --> 00:31:32,249
Speaker 9: And I had doubts from time to time, but in

494
00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:45,690
Speaker 9: that moment I felt it, do you want.

495
00:31:45,490 --> 00:31:46,170
Speaker 10: To commit.

496
00:31:58,050 --> 00:32:00,530
Speaker 5: I feel like not a lot of people would go

497
00:32:00,610 --> 00:32:04,810
Speaker 5: to that length, you know, I mean my family didn't.

498
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:07,930
Speaker 5: But like I even wonder, like.

499
00:32:11,090 --> 00:32:14,170
Speaker 4: Vivian struggles for the right words for the first time

500
00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:16,650
Speaker 4: during the trip, She's trying to put herself not in

501
00:32:16,650 --> 00:32:19,810
Speaker 4: Elio's shoes, but in Marcello's if.

502
00:32:19,650 --> 00:32:24,450
Speaker 5: The rules were reversed, Like, do you think Elie would

503
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:26,090
Speaker 5: have done that for you?

504
00:32:29,810 --> 00:32:32,729
Speaker 9: It's all as a question for me, ALA's ask that

505
00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:38,329
Speaker 9: I don't know. I don't know.

506
00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:42,890
Speaker 5: The fact that you like moved in and took care

507
00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:47,090
Speaker 5: of him is it's it is really incredible in it.

508
00:32:48,209 --> 00:32:53,009
Speaker 5: I think it just shows like how compassionate and like

509
00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:57,529
Speaker 5: how loving of a person you are that you were

510
00:32:57,530 --> 00:33:02,930
Speaker 5: able to do that. So yeah, thank you, thank you.

511
00:33:09,730 --> 00:33:12,050
Speaker 9: I didn't expect to feel the wam feeling right now.

512
00:33:13,130 --> 00:33:15,370
Speaker 9: That held a grudge for a while, and I was

513
00:33:15,450 --> 00:33:20,850
Speaker 9: proud of the grudge. I was proud of being spurned,

514
00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:22,610
Speaker 9: and I think I grew attached to that.

515
00:33:23,370 --> 00:33:24,170
Speaker 7: I held that.

516
00:33:25,730 --> 00:33:28,210
Speaker 9: As a kind of a badge of honor in a way,

517
00:33:29,050 --> 00:33:35,410
Speaker 9: and I don't anymore. Also, I'm ready to receive it.

518
00:33:36,209 --> 00:33:40,529
Speaker 9: I don't think I was so thank you. I really

519
00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:48,930
Speaker 9: really appreciate that there's a poem by John Ashberry which

520
00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:52,450
Speaker 9: I'm going to completely destroy and bustardize. But there's an

521
00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:58,850
Speaker 9: image that I really love. He says, Somewhere someone is

522
00:33:58,930 --> 00:34:04,330
Speaker 9: running desperately towards you, and I have this image of you, like.

523
00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:08,009
Speaker 8: Not desperately, but sort of.

524
00:34:07,970 --> 00:34:18,890
Speaker 5: Like when slow. I feel that too, because of you know,

525
00:34:18,930 --> 00:34:22,530
Speaker 5: the nature of everything that had happened. It was like

526
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:25,810
Speaker 5: I didn't get that opportunity to have you, as you know,

527
00:34:25,850 --> 00:34:32,290
Speaker 5: an uncle in my life. So can I claim you

528
00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:33,170
Speaker 5: as my uncle?

529
00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:37,930
Speaker 10: Okay?

530
00:34:38,290 --> 00:34:38,730
Speaker 5: All right?

531
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:47,650
Speaker 4: Twenty five years ago it had been Marcelo asking to

532
00:34:47,650 --> 00:34:51,290
Speaker 4: be let into the family, but now it's Vivian who's

533
00:34:51,290 --> 00:35:02,890
Speaker 4: doing the asking. Marcelo moves forward to embrace her. In

534
00:35:02,930 --> 00:35:06,010
Speaker 4: the end, Vivian receives an uncle as amazing as the

535
00:35:06,010 --> 00:35:07,330
Speaker 4: one she always imagined.

536
00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:09,370
Speaker 10: Remember you were I need?

537
00:35:09,450 --> 00:35:09,930
Speaker 2: Did a girl?

538
00:35:11,090 --> 00:35:15,290
Speaker 9: Remember your her was blondish?

539
00:35:15,690 --> 00:36:10,090
Speaker 10: Would you like to remember your tiny.

540
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:51,530
Speaker 14: Now that the fernures returning to its good will home,

541
00:35:55,050 --> 00:35:59,410
Speaker 14: Now that the last month's rent is skating with the

542
00:35:59,610 --> 00:36:01,290
Speaker 14: damaged bottle.

543
00:36:01,330 --> 00:36:03,890
Speaker 1: Take this moment to deserve.

544
00:36:05,930 --> 00:36:11,930
Speaker 10: If we mess him and we tied felt for far

545
00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:17,170
Speaker 10: from the Thames at Acid and leave.

546
00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:24,690
Speaker 4: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Stevie Lane along

547
00:36:24,730 --> 00:36:28,489
Speaker 4: with me Jonathan Goldstein. Our senior producer is Khalila Holt.

548
00:36:29,050 --> 00:36:32,650
Speaker 4: Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Caitlin Kenny, mime,

549
00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:37,930
Speaker 4: O'Donnell Lydia Polgreen, Rayhan Harmansey, Nobille Chalmpott, and Jackie Cohen.

550
00:36:38,650 --> 00:36:41,890
Speaker 4: Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows,

551
00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:45,130
Speaker 4: John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst, Hailey Shaw,

552
00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:48,250
Speaker 4: and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on

553
00:36:48,290 --> 00:36:50,130
Speaker 4: our website, Gimbletmedia dot.

554
00:36:50,050 --> 00:36:51,530
Speaker 1: Com slash Heavyweight.

555
00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:54,290
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by the Weaker Than's courtesy of

556
00:36:54,370 --> 00:36:57,090
Speaker 4: Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Hailey Shaw.

557
00:36:57,810 --> 00:37:00,530
Speaker 4: Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at

558
00:37:00,570 --> 00:37:04,010
Speaker 4: Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll be back with the

559
00:37:04,090 --> 00:37:05,770
Speaker 4: new episode next week.

560
00:37:11,810 --> 00:37:13,890
Speaker 2: Ba and