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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Ay, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am hanging in there. So what's been going on

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Speaker 2: with you?

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Speaker 1: Well? I'm very excited because the trailer for season twelve

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Speaker 1: of Tenfold More Wicked drops in a little more than

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Speaker 1: a week. I know that you're in disbelief that I

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Speaker 1: actually do a show that doesn't involve you, but that

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Speaker 1: is that was the original, That was my og show,

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Speaker 1: Tenfold More Wicked. This is an exciting season for me.

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Speaker 1: It's different than what folks are used to. They are

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Speaker 1: used to the seasons like the ones that we're you

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Speaker 1: know doing right now, which is you know about one

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Speaker 1: family and a tragedy. This is actually a carryover from

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Speaker 1: season eleven. It's the same family, a very dramatic family

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Speaker 1: line that includes Lizzie Borden, which is a huge deal,

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Speaker 1: and it involves this cursed family if you want to

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Speaker 1: believe in curses. And not only that, but Fall River

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Speaker 1: massachuse Sits, which is where Lizzie Borden was and there

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Speaker 1: is a two or three block long section that has

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Speaker 1: over one hundred and fifty years seen some of the

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Speaker 1: most unbelievable tragedy, including the Lizzie Bordon case where you

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Speaker 1: know she was acquitted for murdering her stepmother and her father.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of do you believe in cursed families?

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Speaker 1: And do you believe in cursed towns? And we go

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Speaker 1: through all of these cases that happened just in this

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Speaker 1: little area with this kind of one family.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will say, over the course of my career

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Speaker 2: that yes, I have seen families that have bad things

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Speaker 2: happen to them over and over again, as well as locations.

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Speaker 2: In fact, in my old jurisdiction, there's a neighborhood in

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Speaker 2: which I had, over the course of a decade, multiple

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Speaker 2: serial killers committing crimes in this one little neighborhood. And

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Speaker 2: it's like, how do you explain that, you know, why

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Speaker 2: there I don't know about the mystical curse aspect, you know,

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Speaker 2: but I'm open minded. You know, maybe maybe there's a curse.

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Speaker 1: Okay, listen. What I want to make clear is that

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Speaker 1: I actually really like Fall River. I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: anything wrong with being a curse city. Actually, I think

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Speaker 1: it's kind of cool. This season really covers a lot

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Speaker 1: of different time periods, but it really is this like

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Speaker 1: two to three block radius that has seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of things happen. And I'm not sure everybody who visits

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Speaker 1: the Lizzie Bordenhouse knows that. So I I've always been

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Speaker 1: interested in the Lizzie Boordon case. I don't actually want

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Speaker 1: to know if she really did it or not. I

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Speaker 1: like the mystery, like a Jack the Ripper type thing.

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Speaker 1: I know that is not something you want everything solved,

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Speaker 1: I think, right.

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Speaker 2: Ideally, you know, for sure, you know, that's that's the

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Speaker 2: whole point of what I you know, why I got

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Speaker 2: into what I do. But you know, it's you know,

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Speaker 2: when you start talking about these historic crimes, obviously it's

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Speaker 2: more of okay, what can we learn from them? What

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Speaker 2: we're you know, just as you know we talk about

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Speaker 2: here in Buried Bones. You know, it's the well, the

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Speaker 2: time period's different. It's interesting to learn about the cultural

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Speaker 2: and societal differences. But then we also see, as we

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Speaker 2: always talk about, well, the reason these crimes are committed

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Speaker 2: is for the same reasons today as they were back then.

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Speaker 1: Well, this season of Tenfold is unique, and I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited speaking of Tenfold. The story that we are about

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Number one is huge, so it's a

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Speaker 1: two parter, and number two it is connected to a

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Speaker 1: Tenfold season that I did a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 1: which was a series of murders that happened in Austin,

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Speaker 1: Texas in the late eighteen hundreds. We are going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about, in my opinion, the most well known

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Speaker 1: serial killer you've never heard of, which is the Servant

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Speaker 1: Girl Annihilator. It was, you know, a series of crimes

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Speaker 1: that happened in the eighteen late eighteen hundreds in Austin

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Speaker 1: when it was a growing city, and you and I

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Speaker 1: have never talked about it. I have talked about it

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Speaker 1: in Tenfold because it was related to a different story,

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Speaker 1: but you and I have I've never unraveled this sort

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Speaker 1: of unsolved crime before. It's very, very old.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So this is in many ways, this upcoming case

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Speaker 2: is a spinoff from Tenfold More Wicked then.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and an odd way it is. And I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to throw a theory at you that I explore

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Speaker 1: in Tenfold More Wicked and just see how it sticks.

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Speaker 1: Let's see if the spaghetti sticks to the refrigerator.

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Speaker 2: Is that how you determine if your spaghetti noodles are done?

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Speaker 2: Is you throw them at the refrigerator.

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Speaker 1: That's what my grandma told me, not yours. I guess not.

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Speaker 2: Huh, I guess I will have to try that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to Austin, Texas in eighteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: and let's set the scene. First off, I like to

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Speaker 1: give trigger warnings. This does have some discussion, a lot

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Speaker 1: of brutality. And I will say this, Paul, I've never

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Speaker 1: told you this before, but when I watch shows, when

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Speaker 1: I do stories, when I write books, knives and sharp

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Speaker 1: objects really freak me out. It's really hard for me

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Speaker 1: to watch a movie. Even here a description of a

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Speaker 1: real crime involving a knife. It just scares the daylights

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Speaker 1: out of me. And there's a lot of knife stuff

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Speaker 1: happening in this story.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, you know. Obviously, I've worked a lot of

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Speaker 2: cases in which the weapon was a knife, and there's

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Speaker 2: good reason to be scared by knives. You know. The

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Speaker 2: type of injuries that they inflict are brutal. But I

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Speaker 2: am well versed, if you will, in terms of the

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Speaker 2: wounds that knives can produce, and so I'm very interested

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Speaker 2: to hear the facts of this case.

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Speaker 1: So two things for listeners. One, if the descriptions of

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Speaker 1: the wounds of somebody like Jack the rippers victims, if

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Speaker 1: they upset you, this is probably not the episode for

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Speaker 1: you because this is brutal. Number Two, I do have

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Speaker 1: to talk about two children who were murdered in a

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Speaker 1: story that's tangential to this one, so I will go

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Speaker 1: quickly through that. So just some warnings. I try to

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Speaker 1: remember to let people know about that. Sound good, Paul,

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Speaker 1: That sounds good. Okay. So eighteen eighty five, Austin, Texas

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Speaker 1: the very best city in the entire world. I think

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Speaker 1: everybody knows that. By now because they're all moving here.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you also have a personal bias.

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Speaker 1: No, listen, I'll tell you, Paul. I lived in London,

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Speaker 1: New York. I went to school in Boston. I lived

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Speaker 1: in la I lived in San Francisco, and Austin is

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Speaker 1: still the best place for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've only as a kid when I

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Speaker 2: was living in San Antonio with my parents, I think

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Speaker 2: we drove up through Austin ones but that's really been

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Speaker 2: my only experience and I don't remember it of course.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about this story. This story involves,

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Speaker 1: and I know most of this because of my buddy

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Speaker 1: Skip Pallindsworth, who is one of the best journalists on

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Speaker 1: the planet. He's with Texas Monthly and he wrote a

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Speaker 1: book book that was based on an article that he

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Speaker 1: wrote for Texas Monthly in the year two thousand, which

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Speaker 1: I barely remember. And the article was called Capital Murder

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Speaker 1: and it was about the Midnight Assassin, is what the

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Speaker 1: name of the book was. But it was about the

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Speaker 1: person who was known as the Servant Girl Annihilator, which

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about in a little bit was not exactly

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Speaker 1: a accurate moniker for him to have. But you know,

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Speaker 1: Skip wrote this amazing article and then he got a

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Speaker 1: book deal, and The Midnight Assassin is a really good book.

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Speaker 1: And there's so much historical context. I need to go

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Speaker 1: through a little bit of it before we start really

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Speaker 1: digging into the story. But there's a lot of murder

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Speaker 1: that happens here. There's a lot of issues with race,

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Speaker 1: which isn't surprising at all. Eighteen eighty five Austin, Texas

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of complications. So let's just get

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Speaker 1: going with where we are in time. So Austin is

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Speaker 1: growing big time. By eighteen eighty five, two decades earlier,

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Speaker 1: it was about five thousand people, and by the mid

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Speaker 1: eighteen in eighties it was somewhere between twenty three thousand

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Speaker 1: and thirty thousand people, which is huge growth. You have

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Speaker 1: to picture downtown Austin as like mule drawn street cars.

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Speaker 1: There's this beautiful opera house, there's ice cream parlors and restaurants.

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Speaker 1: It's really growing. There's a capitol building that's under construction.

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Speaker 1: And then what I will say, honestly is the best

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Speaker 1: hotel on the planet, which is the Driscoll Hotel. It

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Speaker 1: is haunted for sure. I have stayed there with my

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Speaker 1: kid and watched the Shining, which scared the crap out

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Speaker 1: of both of us. We stayed in Historical Wing. People

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Speaker 1: have died there. It is the most beautiful but in

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Speaker 1: some ways the creepiest hotel around. So that just sort

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Speaker 1: of paints a picture of where we are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're really selling me on this hotel.

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Speaker 1: My god, it's gorgeous. It's a wonderful hotel. It was

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Speaker 1: just there two weeks ago. I took my kid over

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Speaker 1: one of our little breaks and it was great to

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Speaker 1: s stay there. But yeah, haunted hotels are a mixed

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Speaker 1: bag for me. Sometimes this is on a national level.

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Speaker 1: This is twelve years after the Civil War, so this

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Speaker 1: is sort of the beginning of reconstruction. So one thing

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Speaker 1: that's interesting that I want to start out with is,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are a couple of researchers that I'll

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Speaker 1: give a nod to. One is Skip hollands Worth. One

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Speaker 1: is a guy named J. R. Galloway who was at

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Speaker 1: the University of Texas and basically he wrote a book

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Speaker 1: that it sounds to me like he was able to

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Speaker 1: have access to so many newspaper articles from the eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds he was able to get a really good sense

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Speaker 1: for this story, and Skip really nodded to Galloway as

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Speaker 1: and this is somebody who did a lot of research.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with my first question for you. This

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Speaker 1: person was named the servant girl annihilator. Even though this

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Speaker 1: case does not exclusively involve black women who are servants

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Speaker 1: or I mean that's you know, the older term for it,

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Speaker 1: or assistants or helpers or housekeepers. It expands to two

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Speaker 1: white women and to a couple of men. So where

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Speaker 1: do we come up with the names of serial killers?

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Speaker 1: I know what happened with the Golden State Killer and

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Speaker 1: Michelle McNamara, but generally is this a media thing where

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Speaker 1: they come up with the Colonial Parkway Killer and all

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Speaker 1: of these different names.

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Speaker 2: Yes, in most instances, the monikers given to serial predators

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Speaker 2: are media driven, and oftentimes the moniker is not descriptive

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Speaker 2: of the types of crimes that the predator is doing,

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Speaker 2: whether they are, let's say, a serial rapist or a

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Speaker 2: serial killer. So it's not surprising to me that this

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Speaker 2: servant girl annihilator moniker is kind of missing the mark

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Speaker 2: to be inclusive of all the victimology. Nor is it

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Speaker 2: surprising that you have a single offender who is killing

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Speaker 2: black women, white women men. You know. This is what

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Speaker 2: is called crossover offending. It is a myth that these

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Speaker 2: predators choose a certain victim type and only stick with

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Speaker 2: that victim type. And a lot of that myth, you know,

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Speaker 2: really kind of comes out of the Ted Bundy era,

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Speaker 2: in which, you know, everybody thought Ted Bundy only killed

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Speaker 2: you know, brunette females with hair parted down the middle,

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Speaker 2: which is not true, you know, but that's what the

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Speaker 2: media propagated. And so oftentimes law enforcement during unsolved series

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Speaker 2: has so much more details about the cases than what

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Speaker 2: the media does, and so the media is relying upon

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Speaker 2: scant details to kind of formal opinions that oftentimes are wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I hear you with the wrong opinions of the media,

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Speaker 1: but they do come up with some quippy little monikers

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Speaker 1: for serial killers, and this one was the servant girl annihilator.

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Speaker 1: Servant girl is not a phrase I would normally use,

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Speaker 1: so when I use it, it's because this is how

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Speaker 1: they were literally described in eighteen eighty five. So let's

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Speaker 1: start with it. We are in December of eighteen eighty four,

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Speaker 1: December thirtieth, so for you local Austinites I'm going to

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Speaker 1: say the name of the street that it was, and

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Speaker 1: then I'll tell you what it is. Because they got

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Speaker 1: switched around quite a bit. I thought this was interesting.

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Speaker 1: The first thing happened on December thirtieth of eighteen eighty four,

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Speaker 1: and the address is nine oh one West Pekan Street.

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Speaker 1: Pecan Street is now Sixth Streets. So if you've come

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Speaker 1: to Austin and you want to really see a lot

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Speaker 1: of partying and a lot of drinking, Sixth Street is

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Speaker 1: definitely one of the places you would go. It's where

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Speaker 1: I grew up going, but back then it was a

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Speaker 1: residential area. And the victim is a black woman in

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Speaker 1: her early twenties and her name is Molly Smith. So

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Speaker 1: we're just going to jump right into it, and I

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Speaker 1: hope I have enough information for you. You know, in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, they were vague and there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of propriety. I mean, I struggled with when corners but

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. Back then, pathologists, city

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Speaker 1: city fowe position in this case wouldn't even necessarily take

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Speaker 1: the clothes off of the victim out of propriety. So

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Speaker 1: I hope I have enough information for you here. So

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Speaker 1: Mollie Smith was sleeping in her bed apparently that she

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Speaker 1: shared with her boyfriend, who was a thirty year old

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Speaker 1: named Walter Spencer, also black. So she lived in a

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Speaker 1: cabin on the property of her white employer, who was

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Speaker 1: a man named Walter Hall. He was an insurance salesman.

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Speaker 1: Mollie was a cook in the Hall's home. She was

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Speaker 1: sleeping in her bed and had apparently been attacked that night,

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Speaker 1: dragged out of her bed. Now we're talking about snow,

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Speaker 1: just this one instance, because I'm telling you it never

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Speaker 1: snows here. There was a little bit of a snowiness

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Speaker 1: on the backyard, dragged out onto the snow in the backyard,

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Speaker 1: laid by an outhouse and murdered. And I have details

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Speaker 1: on potential sexual assault. And then I have details, of

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Speaker 1: course on what ended up happening with her. The boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: he was attacked too, but he survived. But it sounds

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Speaker 1: like he was attacked in the bed and was never

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Speaker 1: taken out of the bed.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you have an offender that is willing to

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Speaker 2: go into a house with a man and woman who

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Speaker 2: are in bed. He attacks these two victims. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's he's taking on a male and this is This

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Speaker 2: is sort of like Golden State Killer. You know, this

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Speaker 2: is where Joseph DiAngelo is willing to engage with a

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Speaker 2: male present in the house. This tells me that this

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Speaker 2: offender has a lot of self confidence in their physical

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Speaker 2: ability and is willing to take on this higher risk crime.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that now after attacking the male, the offender

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Speaker 2: is dragging the female outside, and there's snow on the ground,

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Speaker 2: it's cold, and this is where he is now potentially

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulting and killing the victim. Were there are other

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Speaker 2: people inside the house? Is there a reason why the

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Speaker 2: offender is taking her outside?

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Speaker 1: It sounds like it was just Mollie and her boyfriend, Walter.

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Speaker 1: Walter has a head wound. It sounds like he was

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Speaker 1: likely attacked first. He had head wound by an axe

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Speaker 1: and doesn't remember anything. He survived, but he doesn't remember anything.

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Speaker 1: She is dragged out. Now there is a main house

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Speaker 1: that's in front of the cabin in which, you know,

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Speaker 1: the insurance salesman and his family presumably are But it's

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Speaker 1: just Walter and Molly at this point in bed.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the offender is hitting Walter in the head

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Speaker 2: with an axe. It sounds like the offender is now

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Speaker 2: trying to remove Mollie away, gets space between him and

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Speaker 2: Mollie from Walter. This tells me the offender doesn't have

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Speaker 2: confidence that he has completely incapacitated Walter, so he's now

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Speaker 2: trying to generate space so he can spend time with

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Speaker 2: his intended victim, which is Mollie. Walter is just he

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Speaker 2: is just trying to eliminate this threat. But the intended

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Speaker 2: victim is Mollie, and it sounds like this is a

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Speaker 2: sexually motivated crime.

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Speaker 1: So the description is interesting, and you can tell me

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Speaker 1: what you think. She was found on her back, almost

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Speaker 1: completely naked, which in the eighteen hundreds would have been

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Speaker 1: shocking for a city physician or investigators to come. That's

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Speaker 1: why they think that she had been raped. My very

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Speaker 1: first book was set in the nineteen fifties with serial

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Speaker 1: killer John Reginald Christy, and I remember reading the pathologist

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Speaker 1: being able in the nineteen fifties to specifically say semen

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Speaker 1: was present when I did an autopsy. They are not

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Speaker 1: going to say that here. They say that because she

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Speaker 1: was mostly naked and that her organs, you know, her

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Speaker 1: sexual organs, were exposed. It suggested to some that there

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Speaker 1: was a sexual assault, but I would not say that

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Speaker 1: any autopsy or anything is going to be definitive in

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Speaker 1: that way. But stripping her down, you know, and brutalizing

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Speaker 1: her sounds like pretty clear to me, right.

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Speaker 2: This is a sexually motivated crime. Now back back then,

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Speaker 2: they're probably not looking for the physical evidence that could

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Speaker 2: prove rape. And when I use the term rape, I

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Speaker 2: come out of the California's statutes. Rape per California is

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Speaker 2: the penetration of the vagina by the penis. No matter

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Speaker 2: how slight, you can have rape and no semen present,

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Speaker 2: there is no ejaculation. There's all these different sex acts

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Speaker 2: that these offenders do. It all depends on what the

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Speaker 2: offender wants to get out of the crime, what the

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Speaker 2: offender's fantasy is. So in this instance, we don't know

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Speaker 2: the sex act that the offender did, but we know

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Speaker 2: because she is stripped down, there is a sexual motivation

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Speaker 2: to this crime.

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Speaker 1: And he separated her, which I know is another big

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Speaker 1: clue for you obviously if he just wanted to come in.

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Speaker 1: So the bedroom is definitely turned upside down. Somebody is

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Speaker 1: looking for something, you know. I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: a thick of value. But to take the chance to

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Speaker 1: drag her into the public, even if it's in the backyard,

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Speaker 1: is motivating. You're right, it's got to be something that's

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Speaker 1: sexually motivated.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, the undress of the body

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Speaker 2: is what's telling me there's a sexual motivation. The separation,

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Speaker 2: you know, pulling her outside. I believe the reason for

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Speaker 2: that is because of Walter. And this is where the

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Speaker 2: offender is not confident that he has dispatched Walter to

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Speaker 2: the point where now he can take his time with

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Speaker 2: Molly inside the house or even inside the very bedroom

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Speaker 2: in which Molly and Walter were sleeping together. This may

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Speaker 2: inform me that the offender is a novice when it

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Speaker 2: comes to killing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And that's going to be interesting for later on.

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Speaker 1: A novice okay. And we'll see what progresses as we

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Speaker 1: have many other victims coming up. Two things. One, I

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Speaker 1: said this place was in disarray. It could have been

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Speaker 1: that he was looking for something, but also there was

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Speaker 1: clearly it sounds like Walter put up a fight. The

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Speaker 1: furniture was in disarray, there was glass broken. They found

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Speaker 1: a bloody axe on the floor, so they did not

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Speaker 1: identify whether or not this was from the people who

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Speaker 1: live there or from mall and Walter. Everybody had axes

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Speaker 1: back then, of course. But the bloody axe is on

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Speaker 1: the floor, so he drags her out and it sounds

359
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: like he has another weapon. There's a city physician, is

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Speaker 1: what they were called in the eighteen hundred. It's named

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Speaker 1: William Jefferson Burt who comes to the scene. And if

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Speaker 1: you've heard that season I told you about it tenfold

363
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Speaker 1: more Wicked, you'll recognize his name because he becomes important.

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Speaker 1: So the city physician, one guy would show up to

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Speaker 1: all of these different murders and assess what happened, helped

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Speaker 1: solve the case, you know. And he says Mollie had

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Speaker 1: been stabbed in the chest, the abdomen, the arms, and

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Speaker 1: the legs and had a deep wound in the side

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Speaker 1: of her head. That to me sounds like a knife

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Speaker 1: also because the axe was left inside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, depending on description of the wounds to Mollie,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to assume it's a knife versus a screwdriver

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Speaker 2: or an ice pick or something like that. You know,

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Speaker 2: it is interesting. He goes into the house with an

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Speaker 2: axe and after using the axe on the mail, he

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Speaker 2: discards the axe or drops it. I'm assuming he's not

377
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Speaker 2: picking up a knife from inside the house, but he's

378
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Speaker 2: brought a knife to the scene, so he's bringing two weapons.

379
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Speaker 2: It's almost as if he knew that the mail Walter

380
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 2: was inside the house and made a predetermined choice that

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Speaker 2: he was going to utilize the axe while Walter was

382
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Speaker 2: asleep to dispatch Walter. But what he wants to do

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Speaker 2: with Mollie, in addition to the sexual assault is part

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Speaker 2: of his fantasy. Is the knife play on her body.

385
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Speaker 2: He's not using the axe on her, he is purposely

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Speaker 2: choosing to use the knife.

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Speaker 1: Well, this next one's tough. I thought Mollie was hard,

388
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Speaker 1: but this next one was very difficult for me. So

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Speaker 1: just another warning the listeners, this is pretty graphic. A

390
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 1: few months later May so we are now in late

391
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Speaker 1: spring eighteen eighty five. Nothing happens similar to this between

392
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Speaker 1: December thirty first and May six, but on May six

393
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Speaker 1: something very similar plays out. So with this story, I'm

394
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: hoping you can help me say, yes, these all seem

395
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: to be related because they have always been packaged together

396
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: as the work of one killer and to who this

397
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: person might have been, Because there are some suspects. So

398
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Speaker 1: here's your second case to see what the similarities are.

399
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Speaker 1: This is another black victim, a woman. She was a cook.

400
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Speaker 1: Her name was Eliza Shelley. She was in her thirties.

401
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: She was the mom of three young boys, and she

402
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: worked for a family, the Johnson family, and the patriarch

403
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: of the family was a doctor. She and the kids,

404
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: these three young boys lived in a tiny back cabin

405
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Speaker 1: on the property of what is now Third Street. So

406
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: these are in close proximity. So we went from Sixth

407
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 1: Street down to Third Street, downtown Austin. She stays in

408
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Speaker 1: the bedroom. She's found dead on the bedroom floor, wrapped

409
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Speaker 1: in bloody sheets. Her bloody sheets as if she in

410
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,719
Speaker 1: the bedding had been dragged off the bed together. And

411
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Speaker 1: they think Paul multiple weapons here. Okay, So here's the

412
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Speaker 1: graphics stuff. Her brains were reportedly oozing out of her

413
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Speaker 1: head wound. She appeared to have an axe wound in

414
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: her skull and a deep hole drilled between her eyes

415
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: and above one of her ears, as well as deep

416
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Speaker 1: slashes all over her body. There is one witness, one

417
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: of the boys who was under ten years old. He

418
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 1: said he wasn't sure whether the attacker was a black

419
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 1: man or a white man, but he thought he was white,

420
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: but either way, the intruder had covered his face with

421
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: this white rag. The boy under ten said that the

422
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: man had woken him up, demanded to know where the

423
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 1: mother had kept all of her money, and then told

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Speaker 1: the boy to put his head under a pillow and

425
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 1: keep it there until he left. So I'm presuming the

426
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: mom was dead at this point, So what do you

427
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: think of that?

428
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Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if I would presume if

429
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 2: the mom is dead. At that point, the offender possibly

430
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: is lacking familiarity inside the house and first runs into

431
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: this boy and now is knowing that he's got his

432
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: face covered, is now interacting with the boy and trying

433
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: to get direction as to where the intended victim is.

434
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 2: If he's asking the boy where is mom, he.

435
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: Says, where's money, where's mom's money.

436
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: Where's mom's money. But he's also he's aware that there's

437
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 2: an adult woman inside this house.

438
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: And this is tiny, Paul, they said a tiny cabin,

439
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: so I don't know how much room there actually is

440
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: to move in here.

441
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me he's also using an axe in

442
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: this case, and we don't have an adult male present

443
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: like we did with Walter in Molly's case. So it

444
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: sounds like this is how he is equipping himself, and

445
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: the similarities between these cases is enough for me to say, yes,

446
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 2: this sounds like it is the same offender, but it

447
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 2: is important that he is also sounds like he's got

448
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: a knife with him, you know, the deep slashes, And

449
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: again this is something that I believe is core to

450
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 2: his fantasy. That is, oftentimes offenders like to use a

451
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: knife versus something a little less impersonal. They like to

452
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: utilize something that they can now penetrate into the women's body.

453
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: The holes being drilled, I don't know what to make

454
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: of that. If that's I'm kind of skeptical. You know,

455
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: it's not like they had a portable drill, battery power drill.

456
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: You know, It's like, well, how would this be done?

457
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: You know, you're sitting there with a hand cranked drill,

458
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: you know. So I would tend to think that maybe

459
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: this was more likely a puncture wound with something like

460
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: maybe a screwdriver or something similar that would indicate, yes,

461
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: you have some sort of bit that is boring through

462
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: the bone.

463
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Well, they have very little evidence to work with here,

464
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: they have a witness who's very young, who can't identify

465
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: whether this person was black or white. Of course we're

466
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: talking about not even candlelight. He's striking in night when

467
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: people are in bed, there's no lights anywhere. He's covering

468
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: his face. It sounds like they find one thing that

469
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: will become important later on a bare footprint in dirt

470
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: near the cabin. A footprint, I mean that, not shoeprint.

471
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: So as we go forward, he does not wear shoes.

472
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: It sounds like.

473
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: Did the young boy. Was he able to describe the

474
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: clothing that the offender was wearing outside of the white mask.

475
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it. The only thing he was

476
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: focused on was that scary white mask and the guy

477
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: telling him, now, he's not hurting the child who is

478
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: a witness. So that's another question. What does that mean

479
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: he has a soft spot for kids, or does that

480
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: mean he doesn't think that this kid's going to be

481
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: able to be helpful to investigators at all.

482
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: It's so hard to exactly say why he doesn't harm

483
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 2: the kid, you know, but I would probably say the

484
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 2: primary reason is is that the kid does not meet

485
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: his victim type. Yeah, so he's not going to do that.

486
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: Whether he has a sauce spot for kids, who knows.

487
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: You know, the bare footprint is a practical aspect, and

488
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: that practical aspect is is that you can walk much

489
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: quieter inside the house than if you have a hard

490
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: sold shoe on. And so this would be something that

491
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: you see cat burglars employ. Cat Burglars are offenders that

492
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: break into houses while there are people inside, typically asleep,

493
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: and they are silent as they move through the house.

494
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: They're like a cat, you know, and they will do

495
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 2: this type of thing, only be half socks on in

496
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 2: order to be able to walk quieter as they move

497
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: through the house. So right now, this offender not having

498
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 2: any shoes on, my guess initially is as he's doing

499
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: that in order to be able to move silently through

500
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: the house or as quietly as he can.

501
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: Let's assume that he did this for the first murder

502
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: from Mollie. It's in the snow. Maybe he didn't, but

503
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: it's in the snow and it's covered up. Would you

504
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: then have reconsidered what you said about him being an

505
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: inexperienced killer. Would that have added any sort of validity

506
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: to him being somebody who's more experienced if he did

507
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: this on the first go round.

508
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: No, because these killers evolve over time. If he, let's say,

509
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: in the first one. The reason I'm saying that I

510
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: believe he might be a novice killer is because he's

511
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: separating Molly from Walter, and in my opinion, the only

512
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 2: real reason to do that, to take her outside into

513
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 2: the cold where now he's exposed, versus being in the

514
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: privacy of the house, is because he's unsure about whether

515
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: or not Walter could reanimate and become a threat to

516
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: him while he wants to spend time with Molly. However,

517
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: prior to that homicide, chances are he's already gained comfort

518
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: and experience breaking into houses, probably with occupants inside, and

519
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: so he has learned, Okay, I need to do this, this,

520
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: and this in order to be able to move throughout

521
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: the house without a learning the victims. And part of

522
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: that learning process may have been I need to ditch

523
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: the boots or ditch the shoes and go barefoot. And

524
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: so he is just employing what he learned as a

525
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: cat burglar before escalating to homicide.

526
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: Okay, and we actually don't know from the kid if

527
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: he ended up finding the money, we would assume maybe

528
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: he took it if he found it, but we know

529
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: from what you're saying, likely the primary motivation is sexual

530
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: I don't have any details on whether Eliza was assaulted

531
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: or not. It sounds like she was partially clothed. But

532
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: does it matter at this point if the first one

533
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: was sexually motivated, are they all going to be after that?

534
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: Well, in all likelihood you have female victims. We know

535
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: with Molly there's no question that it's a sexually motivated crime.

536
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: We don't have enough descriptors in terms of what happened

537
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: to Eliza in terms of what disruption to her clothing,

538
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: what position of her body, any types of you know,

539
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: specific injuries or sexually related observation. I do want to

540
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: address the searchings the house for financial gain, and you

541
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: know this is often seen with you know, serial predators,

542
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: is sometimes they are seeking financial gain. They take advantage

543
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 2: of the opportunity even though the primary motive is the

544
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: sexual assault and or the homicide. Or you have predators

545
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 2: that want to display a potential financial motive to kind

546
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: of in a way minimize the fact that they really

547
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: are there for the sexual assault and or homicide. In

548
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: some ways, it's their justification. I was really just breaking

549
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: into the house because I needed food and money, and

550
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: she was there and I just happened to take advantage

551
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: of it. They're trying to minimize, you know, what their

552
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: true primary motive is.

553
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: Well, after Eliza Shelley, the police start looking sort of

554
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: an earnest for someone. There's a lot of contradictory information

555
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: out there. People who I have spoken with have said

556
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: in their research that the police could give a fig

557
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: about this because it turned out to be a litany

558
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: of black women until we get to the two white

559
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: women at the very end, which I believe. I had

560
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: a quote from someone who said that the police mounted

561
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: their horses and made it all the way to Shoal Creek,

562
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: which is not very far, and stopped because it was

563
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: primarily black women and a few black men. But other

564
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: sources say they're kind of on the hunt for someone.

565
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: In Eliza's case, they start looking at her inner circle.

566
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: They arrest one man who just doesn't seem to have

567
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: any kind of connection. I think he was a near

568
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: do well thirty year old, and then they let him go,

569
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: and then they talked to a neighbor who says, well,

570
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: Eliza had a boyfriend and they argued about money. They

571
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: overheard someone asking for money, and you know, they talked

572
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: to a boyfriend and it turned into nothing. So there's

573
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: not enough evidence for anybody at this point. In the

574
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: city's black community is on edge. I don't think the

575
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: white community really was, is the impression I got. But

576
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: it's the black community that's concerned at this point because

577
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: now you've got two women who are dead, and yes

578
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: they're five months or so apart, but you know, when

579
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: they are brutalized in this way, this is alarming people.

580
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and as it should because you know,

581
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: it's obvious to me just with these two cases that

582
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: this is a serial predator that is at work. These

583
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: are related cases for sure. I don't need DNA in

584
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: order to draw that conclusion. Kind Of going back to Eliza,

585
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: one of the details that you mentioned is that even

586
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: though she wasn't taken out of the house, she has

587
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: removed from the bed but found wrapped in sheets. Do

588
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 2: you have a description, does she like completely cocooned in

589
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: these sheets or are the sheets just covering her?

590
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: The investigators are describing it as covered. So he attacked

591
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: her in bed and yanked her along with the sheets

592
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: off the bed, like trying to get her on the ground,

593
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: and the sheets kind of came with her, is the

594
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: impression I get. So I'm not sure this was like

595
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: a dressing. I think it was like a frenetic moment

596
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: and then maybe the boy walks in before he's able

597
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: to sexual assault her, but she's dead pretty quick.

598
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if the offender is taking the time, let's say,

599
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: to cover his victim with sheets or wrapping her in sheets,

600
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: you know, a purposeful act that is significant behaviorally, and

601
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: oftentimes that indicates that the offender either has some sort

602
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: of connection to the victim and his expressing remorse, doesn't

603
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: want to see what he has done to the victim,

604
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: or there's a practical aspect. Sometimes offenders will cover the

605
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: bodies to delay discovery, you know, So it's a matter

606
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: of this is where you know, crime scene photos would

607
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: be huge in terms of trying to really figure out, Okay,

608
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: did the sheets just come off with the body or

609
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: did the offender actually purposefully cover her up. And the

610
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: offender did, then yeah, that would be something I would

611
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: be keying in on.

612
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: That's not the impression I get, but that's really good information.

613
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: I do think that there's going to be probably posing

614
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 1: coming up here. Let's talk about the timeline a little bit,

615
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: because now I'm not confused, but I'm interested in this bit.

616
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: So we go from December thirtieth to about five months later,

617
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of May, and that's the gap five month

618
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: gap between Molly and Eliza. Now we're to a woman

619
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: named Irene Cross. This is less than three weeks after Eliza.

620
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: Is he ramping up or what's happening? It's a very

621
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: similar attack.

622
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: Well, we have too few data points to determine if

623
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: there is a temporal pattern to this offender, but that

624
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 2: typically isn't something that is consistent in a series. You know,

625
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: I saw it a little bit in Golden State Killer

626
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: that once DeAngelo started killing, he initially went bi annual.

627
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 2: He had killed twice a year, and it was almost

628
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: like he experienced, you know, it's almost like the sexual

629
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: gratification from these homicides, and then went into this refractory

630
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: period for about six months and then offended again. But

631
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 2: oftentimes when the offender offends commits the crime is often

632
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: driven by when the offender has the opportunity in their

633
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: personal life to commit the crime, and so sometimes we'll

634
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: see a long period in between attacks because now the

635
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 2: offender is gainfully employed, you know, can't get out and

636
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: do the prowling or whatever else is needed to commit

637
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: the crime. Like in one instance I can think of

638
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: like with Green River killer Gary Ridgeway, when he stopped offending.

639
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 2: When he was being interviewed, he says, well, I got married.

640
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: You know. The these offenders have real things that happened

641
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: in their personal lives that can impact their ability to offend.

642
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: Now there's also behavioral things, you know, in terms of okay,

643
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: in this instance, we have just a three week gap

644
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 2: between Eliza's case and Irene's case. Is this a time

645
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: in this offender's life in which there's stressors that is

646
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: now driving him to want to go out and offend

647
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: in a quicker period than what he had done between

648
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 2: Molly and Eliza's case. Who knows. At this point there's

649
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 2: so many variables.

650
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: Let me tell you about what happens next. So this

651
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: is May twenty second, so we're jumping from May sixth

652
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: to May twenty second. This happens at three h two

653
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 1: East London Street. Anyone who's local, there is a Linden

654
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: Street in Austin but this is a different one. This

655
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: is now called seventeenth Street, so we've gone from sixth

656
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: Street to Third Street to seventeenth Street, so we're all

657
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: downtown at this point. This is a woman named Irene Cross.

658
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: She was a black domestic worker and she was heard

659
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: screaming in the night on the lawn of her employer,

660
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: who is a woman named Sophia Whitman. And just like

661
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: the previous victims, Irene lived on the property in a

662
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: small cabin in the back the time the helper arrived,

663
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: so she was conscious and screaming. He was gone. She

664
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: is clinging to life, but the prognosis is not good

665
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: and they're trying to get information from her and nothing. Okay,

666
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: So let me tell you the wounds. A six inch

667
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 1: gash above her right eye. Multiple reports are that he

668
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: tried to scalp her, so part of her head is open.

669
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: Her right arm had been so severely and deeply cut

670
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: that it was cut almost in two pieces. And she

671
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: survives this for a little while and then dies. I mean,

672
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: just brutal. If the woman has found naked and they're

673
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: saying this looks like certainly like a sexual assault, I'll

674
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: tell you. But Eliza was a no, and Irene is

675
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: a no, meaning they're clothed.

676
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: So this right arm wound, did the wound penetrate through

677
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 2: her bone or is are they just describing a very large,

678
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: incisive wound.

679
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: They just say so deeply severed. It was nearly cut

680
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: in half. Okay, And she's screaming through this.

681
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: Well, and I think that's that is a huge factor.

682
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: You know, she's making noise. The offender is aware she's

683
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: making noise and possibly alerting other people in the surrounding area.

684
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: So now the time the offender has with Irene is

685
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: sped up in his mind. And that may be why

686
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 2: we don't see more overt signs of sexual assault, like

687
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 2: her clothing being disrupted or removed from her body, this

688
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: wound to her arm, unless he's again armed with an axe,

689
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: you know, and swings the axe and in a defensive posture,

690
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: you know, the axe actually goes through bone, you know,

691
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: And that's a possibility. You know. I've got a case

692
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: in which a woman is killed with a machete and

693
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: her forearm is literally just hanging on by a piece

694
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,959
Speaker 2: of skin. But it sounds like that's likely a defensive wound,

695
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: whether it be done by it, or it's done by

696
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: a knife and it's just you know, it's a significant

697
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: incisive injury, probably to her forearm as she's trying to

698
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 2: ward off the knife, and that can look like it's

699
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: severing the arm, but it doesn't necessarily go through the bone.

700
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: The attempt that's scalping is interesting. I'm aware of one

701
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: instance in one case in which a California DOJ profiler

702
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: talks about an offender who had read about another offender

703
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 2: scalping as victims and wanted to try it. I personally

704
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: don't have a case in which somebody was purposely scalped.

705
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 2: But also you're dealing with Texas back in the late

706
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 2: eighteen eighties or mid eighteen eighties, scalping would I imagine,

707
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: would be something that people were much more aware of

708
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: just because of the indigenous aspects. You know, is this

709
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: an attempt at staging, you know, where now the offender

710
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: is trying to make authorities believe that you have an

711
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: Indigenous person that is committing this crime. Or is this

712
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: part of a way to denigrate the female Maybe she

713
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 2: has a beautiful head of hair and now he's wanting

714
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 2: to collect a souvenir or trying to go after something

715
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: that she takes pride in. You know, there's so many

716
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 2: different potential behavioral aspects to what's going on with this scalping.

717
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: But I do believe that in all likelihood, with the

718
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: limited amount of injuries to Irene and the fact that

719
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 2: she's outside screaming, that he probably got scared off.

720
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: In this instance, and there's a witness, another young witness.

721
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: Now this one's twelve, and I think my twelve year

722
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: old kids would have been able to give some pretty

723
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: good details. They would have been traumatized. But this is

724
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: probably a more reliable witness than the kid who was

725
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: under ten in the last instance. This is a twelve

726
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: year old nephew of Irene. He says that he saw

727
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: the intruder. It was a big, chunky he says, big

728
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: chunky black man. He was bare footed and his pants

729
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: were rolled up. He also said the man had a

730
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: pocket knife, wore a brown hat and told him to

731
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: shut up. Essentially, what do you think about this a

732
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: pocket knife? He must have had something bigger than that.

733
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: You know, in terms of evaluating the pocket knife, it

734
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: would go towards this wound on her arm, you know,

735
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: would this pocket knife have been able to create that wound.

736
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical that the people who are describing this wound

737
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 2: really know what they're looking at. So maybe he is

738
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: just armed with a pocket knife. Most certainly a pocket

739
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: knife can be used to attempt to scalp somebody. However,

740
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: the consistency pants rolled up now that is consistent with

741
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: the bare footprint that was found in Eliza's case. So

742
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: this appears to be, you know, really strongly tying Irene's

743
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,479
Speaker 2: case to the previous two.

744
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will tell you the black community is

745
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: terrified at this point because we go into this summer,

746
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: which is always hot in hell in Texas. We go

747
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: into the summer with three women dead, and everyone is alarmed.

748
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: At this point. Nothing happens over the summer. The media

749
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: jokes it's because it was too hot, which I mean,

750
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: who knows. August thirtieth rolls around eighteen eighty five, and

751
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: now we have our next victim, two victims. This is

752
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: a little complicated, so let me unravel this a little bit.

753
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: It involves a fifty year old woman black domestic worker

754
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: named Rebecca Raymie. She was sleeping in the kitchen with

755
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: her eleven year old daughter because she was so scared

756
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: of this what they presumed to be a multiple murderer

757
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: is what they would have called it in the eighteen hundreds.

758
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: She was so scared of this multiple murderer that she

759
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: and her daughter wanted to be safe, and she and

760
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: Mary were sleeping in the kitchen of this house where

761
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: they were. So this is a little different, and it's

762
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: different because this young girl, this eleven year old girl,

763
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: Mary and her mom, Rebeca, are sleeping in the kitchen

764
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: of their employer. They are not in a back cabin.

765
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: They are in the family's kitchen to stay safe. They

766
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: are in the home of a family called the Weed family.

767
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: They made a lot of money in downtown stables that

768
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: leased everything from horses to carriages, so they had a

769
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: lot of money. They are on what is what was

770
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: then three hundred East Cedar Street, now it's fourth Street.

771
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: So we've gone. Boy, can I remember sixth Street to

772
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: third Street to seventeenth Street, back to fourth Street. And

773
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: they are very very close to Eliza's house, very close.

774
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: So the Weed house is obviously not very secure. They

775
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: are in the kitchen. The man comes in hits Rebecca

776
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: over the head with what my friends skip Pollindsworth describes

777
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: as a club about a foot long containing several ounces

778
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: of lead packed in sand that are all wrapped in buckskin.

779
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: That's called sandbagging. And the person used this and knocked

780
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: out Rebecca cold. I'm assuming they found this. That's how

781
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: they know that Rebecca is completely knocked out. So the

782
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: sandbagging sounds heavy, but it sounds effective if you want

783
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: to disable someone who's a potential victim.

784
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And it's it's somewhat of a sounds

785
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: like somewhat of a padded type of weapon, which is

786
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: an interesting choice. It's not a hammer, it's not a bat,

787
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: you know, something that an offender would use to bludge

788
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: in somebody to death. So it sounds like this was

789
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: purposely chosen to incapacitate versus kill.

790
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: So now I'm going to want to know from you

791
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: when you when you hear this next if this is

792
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: a situation where he is specifically casing things out for

793
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: specific victims, because he does not take the fifty year

794
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: old Rebecca Raimie, he takes her daughter. So what happens

795
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: is he takes Mary, he drags her to the weeds

796
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: the families shed in the back, and he I mean

797
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: just brutalizes her, and I can tell you what the

798
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: injuries are in a minute. But can you respond to

799
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: that that he didn't seem like he had designs on Rebecca,

800
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: the older woman, that he was really focused on the

801
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: young girl.

802
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: No, exactly, if you could, could you tell me the

803
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: ages of Mollie, Eliza, and Irene.

804
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know how this goes people who are

805
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: disenfranchised in the eighteen hundreds. I'll give you the best estimate.

806
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: So Mollie between twenty three and twenty five, Eliza early thirties,

807
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: thirty one, thirty is what they're saying. Irene skip thinks

808
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: she's thirty three. Some people say twenty three, but all

809
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, twenties and thirties. And then Rebecca Raimi is

810
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: fifty and her daughter is eleven.

811
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in this offender's mind, I would say that

812
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 2: Rebecca is not fitting within the characteristics, which is her

813
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: age range. We don't know about physical appearance requirements that

814
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: this offender has, but what we do know is that

815
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 2: Rebecca is significantly older than the three prior victims. Now

816
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 2: Mary is significantly younger. Yet evaluating that can be problematic.

817
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, we know that

818
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: we have younger girls that hit puberty earlier than in

819
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: past generations. You know, so an offender from Afar may

820
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: choose a victim based on her physical appearance, but has

821
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: no clue what her actual age is. She just meets

822
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: a certain physical characteristic or requirement that the offender needs

823
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 2: to satisfy a fantasy. This can often be confused, you know,

824
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: like with an eleven year old, Oh, this must be

825
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: a pedophile, not necessarily know. It depends on did this

826
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: offender purposely choose Mary because she was so young, maybe

827
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: looked prepubescent, or did he see her from Afar or

828
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: see her in the moment in the kitchen and see

829
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: a eleven year old girl that maybe looked more physically

830
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 2: mature than other eleven year old girls at that time

831
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: and decided she met his niece. We don't know what's

832
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: going on inside the offender's mind, but I am fairly

833
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 2: confident that in all likelihood, Rebecca did not meet this

834
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 2: offender's needs as a victim, likely because of her age.

835
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: Well, the evidences is that Mary, the eleven year old

836
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: had been sexually assaulted. The injuries are pretty awful. The

837
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: sexual assault, you know, again, the reason they say they

838
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: believe it happened is because she was virtually naked and

839
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: her organs were exposed. When they find her the next morning,

840
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: she is still alive and her mom survives this, Rebecca Ramie.

841
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: So this is the injury. I mean they described her

842
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: as dazed Mary. She had a hole. Now this is

843
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: where the vernacular comes into play. Drilled. We talked about

844
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: this whole drilled. She had a whole drilled through her

845
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: left ear. But the next note is they think it

846
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: was made by an iron rod or a pin, So

847
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: it's a puncture right penetrated her brain. Her skull was

848
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: also fractured. They found her, she was alive, but not

849
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: for very long and she ended up dying.

850
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: I think it's informative. You know, they used the term

851
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: whole drilled left ear, but then they think it's an

852
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: iron rod. So this tells me this was a tool

853
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: or a weapon that produced a puncture wound that could

854
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: penetrate the skull. And then that goes back to Eliza,

855
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: you know where we had the debate as to whether

856
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: a drill was used or was a puncture wound In

857
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 2: all lives likelihood, what happened to Eliza was also something

858
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: akin to an iron rod or pin that punctured Eliza's

859
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: skull versus something that was drilled.

860
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: Why would you do that? Is this experimentation? She was

861
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: alive when he did this.

862
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 2: Mary has no incisive injuries, so it's not like he's

863
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: using a knife on her. He is only using this

864
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 2: puncturing weapon. I do know that these offenders do experiment,

865
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: and they will experiment in many different ways, including the

866
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 2: type of weapon they use from case to case to case,

867
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: and that maybe what's going on here. Does he bring

868
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: this weapon with him or does he just you know,

869
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,959
Speaker 2: find something on the property that he uses. We don't

870
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: know at this point. But he's not using a knife,

871
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: and so that to me is the most significant thing.

872
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 2: I was kind of postulating that this offender really wants

873
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 2: to use a knife on his victims. Were Rebecca and

874
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: Mary more opportunistic, you know, so he wasn't fully equipped

875
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: with his k kit if you will, the axe, the knife,

876
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: you know, the puncturing weapon. He only has this puncturing weapon.

877
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 2: And is this something that he had used previously, the same

878
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: type of weapon, or just something that he found laying

879
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: on the ground on the property. Just don't know. Right now.

880
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: Okay, let me give you a little bit more information.

881
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: Another bare footprint in the dirt. This one is an

882
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: unusual shape, they say, Now you tell me what you

883
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 1: think about this. It appears that whomever made this footprint

884
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: was missing a little toe. Can you really tell that

885
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: from dirt?

886
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: I would need to see the print, you know, Like,

887
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: let's say you have a foot impression and it's a

888
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 2: good foot impression without distortion. And so when I say

889
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 2: an impression, let's say this was a shallow, muddy area,

890
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: and you have a clean impression which I would have

891
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: confidence replicates the foot. That would give me greater confidence

892
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: that if there was a missing toe present, that the

893
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 2: offender was lacking a toe, If it looked like that,

894
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: that little toe should have also been part of the impression,

895
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: the way that that went into the mud. If this

896
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: is just a foot print in dirt, I think my

897
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 2: confidence is less because you can step in certain ways

898
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: and that's not going to fully replicate all the features

899
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: of the foot.

900
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the police now understand why the black community

901
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: in Austin is alarmed, and I'm sure the white community

902
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: does not want killers roaming around their house, which is

903
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: what happened in this last instance, So they go searching.

904
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: They arrest several people, including one man that they really

905
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: felt like was trying to evade them by, you know,

906
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: putting on a chemical on his leg so the bloodhounds

907
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't find him. None of it sticks. They do not

908
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: have enough evidence in order to keep somebody longer than

909
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 1: just a few days. So as we end this episode,

910
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: we are left with for very violent murders, potentially all

911
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 1: sexual assaults, we don't know for sure, one mother who

912
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: has lost her daughter and I'm assuming has probably permanent

913
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: brain damage from being whacked on the head with that

914
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: sandbagging thing. And zero suspects and a lot more ahead, Paul,

915
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna have to stop there. We have

916
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: a lot to talk about next week. Oh.

917
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 2: I'm fully engaged on this case. This is my wheelhouse,

918
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: so I'm looking forward to getting more details.

919
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: Great, see you soon.

920
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

921
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

922
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

923
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

924
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

925
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

926
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

927
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

928
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

929
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

930
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: Barry Bones.

931
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

932
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

933
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

934
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

935
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 1: cold Cases, is also available now