WEBVTT - One Big Blob of Elon 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:09.040 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Okay, it's the last 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:09.640 DAP school. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.720 I know. I saw on your Instagram. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:19.400 It was just of course, so that's the school for 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.200 my children. And I've lived, you know, much of my 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.400 adult life no longer and like the rhythms of the 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.680 school year. But like then you have kids and you're like, 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.360 why am I not on summer vacation. It just feels 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:31.240 like it's summer vacation. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.360 Now they're gonna wake up tomorrow and what are they 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:33.720 going to do? 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.360 To the pool? Watch TV, watch the World Cup. Watching 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:39.200 so much World Cup. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.560 That sounds so fun, but you haven't watched any World Cup. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:44.680 Oh my gosh, it's so good. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:46.599 Apparently the ratings are pretty good. 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:48.800 It's great, Like it's it's been a good World Cup. 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.240 And dang, I think I complained to you last week 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.160 that like I think the USA placed tonight at. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.360 Ten o'clock, Like that's that's what happening. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.600 I prefer like a European World Cup where like I 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.920 can watch all the games during the day. But it's 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.160 been really good. It's been really fun to watch the kids, 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:07.200 and I really feel like it is time for my 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.319 summer vacation and I'll see you and I'll see you. 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.280 And yeah, I mean i'll see you next week. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.200 Yeah, if I were taking a vacation a lot of time, because. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.679 You're that's true, a sabbatical of sorts, of a child 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:25.759 bearing sabbatical, to be clearly. Yeah, I plan to have 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:26.520 a great time. 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:29.720 Everyone everyone plans that. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:30.280 Yeah. 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.400 I know, as someone who's never had a baby before, 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.120 I think I'm going to have a fanta time. It 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:41.160 seems easy. I mean one seems easy, right as a 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.640 parent of multiples. I don't know if I've talked about 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.400 it on this podcast, but I really have just been 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.120 approaching it like I'm getting a new puppy. I don't 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.240 know how to take care of a human, but I 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:52.320 can do a small animal. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:57.279 I mean, look, obviously it's not like getting a new puppy, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.320 but there's some continuum. 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:03.680 Yeah, I mean, she can't talk, she can't really do much. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.720 She's like a little forest creature, right right. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.080 I feel like it's very possible that your child would 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:13.680 turn into a little forest creature. 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:15.799 I hope. So I'm really excited. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.200 In a month or so, you'll know, like or be pregnant. 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.760 But like, yeah, we won't be like that was a 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:21.320 weird dream. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:26.040 Then the party really start anyway, I guess we should 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:27.040 do the podcast. 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.840 Hello and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.359 podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.239 Matt Levine and I write The Money Stuff com for 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:38.560 Bloomberg Opinion. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.760 And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:43.280 an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.640 We almost had a vacation from SpaceX last week. I 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.160 feel like we snuck in a little SpaceX. 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:57.160 Yeah, I mean you have to. 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.280 Write hardly a noticeable amount of SpaceX. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:01.799 And now we're going to talk about SpaceX a. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.760 Lot, well a medium that way too much a good amount. Yeah, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.839 like a segment of the show, did you know it's 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:10.960 below two trillion dollars today? Or it was as of 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:12.680 like one thirty or something. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.720 Yeah, it's been interesting to see the back and forth 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.440 in these shares. I mean, who knows. I mean as 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.120 someone who watches lines all day, yeah, talks about them 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:23.400 for a. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.080 Living, right, I did sort of like you know, you 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.160 have an ipo then like it's supposed to go up 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.440 from there, and like this one has gotten up a 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.160 little and now it's kind of done. It's not below 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.119 the IPO price, but it's below like the first day, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:36.080 you know, closing price. 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.200 Yeah, big time. I mean the IPO price is like 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:39.120 one hundred and thirty. 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.800 Five dollars fifty Thursday afternoon. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.840 Yeah, who knows what it'll be when we published this podcast. 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.800 But there was a good thought experiment in the New 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:48.360 York Times this. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.080 Week about SpaceX and Tesla merging big times. I don't 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.200 think that's a New York Times thought exper No, I've 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.840 seen that everywhere, and I don't want to say that 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.520 like it was planted by SpaceX, but I do feel 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.880 a little bit like they are dusting the waters for 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.040 like that's the next thing that's going to happen the president. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.280 She's not the CEO. She was on CNBC on IPO 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:10.400 Day talking about it. 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.320 So there's no question that there's synergies between Tesla and 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:19.040 SpaceX and our futures. Definitely, there's a convergence of kind 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.359 of what we're all trying to accomplish in the future. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:26.040 That's our next president, Yeah, pretty much. It is really crazy. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:27.479 What are they waiting for? 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.240 I think in general, if you work for Elon Musk, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.440 that need to like sleep and live a nice life 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.320 as not you know, no one cares. 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.239 But yeah, they did just do it. That's true. 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:42.960 But just a minute ago. 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.520 It's just funny because we're going to talk about this 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.520 until it happens, and it. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.359 Feels like it's going to happen. Yeah, I feel like 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:53.120 six months ago people were talking about this as a 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.000 joke and now it's like, yep, that'll be next week. 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.440 Well I feel like six months ago. I mean, who 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.479 knows how fuzzy my timeline is, but the idea of 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.600 them ipoing was still a who knows. 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.640 I guess that's right. Yes, it was not fast. Yeah, 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:09.960 they move on the merger thing. I mean, one answer 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:11.520 to the question what are they waiting for is like, 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:16.320 presumably a merger means an all stock merger because no 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.479 one's gonna buy it. It's Tesla for cash. But like 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.880 one answer that question might be that if SpaceX went 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.760 public and its evaluation quickly rose to like, you know, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.800 four trillion dollars, then I think that would be more 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.800 convenient for Musk. Like I think from Elon Musk's perspective, 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.119 the more SpaceX is worth relative to Tesla, the better 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:42.839 this is because he owns more of SpaceX, you know, yeah, 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.120 and SpaceX is kind of the new baby, and so 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.920 the more that like SpaceX is represented in the combined company, 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.160 like probably that's more convenient for him. I don't know 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.880 how much that matters, because he has super voting stock 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.560 of SpaceX, and like he doesn't necessarily care that much 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.480 about the charlder, so like it's probably fine to merge them. 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.520 You know. Right now, SpaceX weth like two trillion dollars 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.840 and Tesla's worth like one point four trillion dollars, so 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.160 like almost a merger of equals, Like that's fine for him, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.000 But it would have been probably a little bit nicer 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:13.880 if it was like, you know, three to one or something. 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:15.480 So that's the Elon Musk perspective. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:16.479 Oh, which is the only person. 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:17.120 Well. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:22.120 The New York Times did include some quotes from Tasha Kini. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.000 She's at ARC Investment Management, which obviously really likes Elon Musk. 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.440 She made the point that ARC would prefer the merger 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.279 took place after Tesla had become the dominant company in 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.240 self driving taxis. She said it would be good for 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.960 shareholders to see that take off before the merger. Theoretically, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.760 because I and she didn't say this, but I'm assuming 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.880 because Tesla shares would be worth more. 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:46.440 Yeah, I mean, like one thing that's going to happen 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.480 is like SpaceX will do it's business, Tesla will do 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.360 it's business. You know, ideally they would both go up, right, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.000 But one question you might have is like, in the 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.560 next few months, a few years, whatever, will SpaceX go 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:04.039 up more than Tesla? Will it become more valuable faster 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.760 or slower than Tesla? Not the answer, But doesn't it 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:12.240 feel like Elon Musk's attention and the world's attention is 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.280 on SpaceX and data centers, AI and whatever, and not 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.560 so much on the cars. Now there's AI stuff at 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.120 Tesla there, they're making the robots, they're making the cars, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.960 all sorts of stuff, right, and so in you know, 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:28.920 in a year, like could this have reversed? Then could 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.360 Tesla be the hot company because it's the human ide robots. Maybe? 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:34.480 But doesn't it kind of feel like his attention on 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:39.080 SpaceX now and like the longer you wait, the verse 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.800 it is for Tesla. Yeah, this is just a cosma. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.960 Yeah, No, it's a good point. He's always been the 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.480 CEO of multiple companies, et cetera, et cetera. But it 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.480 does feel like there's a clear favorite in his mind 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:49.920 right now. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.360 Yeah. The only thing is that like Grock, but Crock is. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.640 That's also yes, how do I keep forgetting that that 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.680 it's understandable X is XAI, which is, yeah, that's what 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:01.320 it says. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.120 The other other thing is like I've gotten used for 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.200 a long time to this model of Elon Musk of 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.000 like he has a bunch of different companies and a 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:14.040 bunch of different independent bats and he's somehow multitasking between 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.840 all of them. But like that is changing, right, I mean, 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.120 like he had Twitter and an AI company and a 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.160 space company and now they're all one company. And then 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:26.400 you know, you combine that with his car company, which 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.840 is also like a separate solar company that he mushed 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:33.880 into Tesla years ago, then like basically all of his 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.880 scaled commercial stuff would be in one giant company, which 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.960 is a real change from how he's been operating and 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.920 also makes me wonder about like Neuralink and the boring 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.360 company could be the only ones left probably missing one, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.680 but like I think those are the only big Elon 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:52.720 Musk companies that would not be rolled up into this 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.400 and so how long beforeror Neuralink gets folded into the 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:02.960 AI behemoth. It's all change from back in the day. 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.080 I had like a whole shpiel about like how Elon Musk, 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.959 by keeping all of his businesses in separate bets, was 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:14.800 somehow doing this like seven dimensional chess mastermind fundraising thing 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.439 where he could tap the same investors for every company 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.720 and like shift resources around without the constraints of running 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.280 a public company. But like now it's just like, yeah, 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.240 he's going to run a giant company, and that giant 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.120 company will be a conglomerate, and he will allocate capital 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.240 to whatever he thinks is the best business to have 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:36.040 that capital, whether it's cars or humanoid robots, or space 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.280 data centers or social media, yeah, ninos other things. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.280 When you put it like that, it is a sea change. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.600 Yeah, it's just like in many ways more. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.200 Normal, right, Like maybe he got tired. I don't know, that. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.880 Doesn't sound right given my general theory that sleep is 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.480 not an impediment to doing anything in SpaceX. But yeah, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.200 it is more sensible, Yeah, to have one guy running 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.200 one company or other than seven different companies. 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:00.000 And one guy seven company. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:05.199 You know, every time he's like moving GPUs from Tesla 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.400 to Xai or whatever dopes like me or writing columns 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.520 being like you shouldn't be doing that, Like very good 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.880 corporate governance, Like now it's fixed, right, if they're all 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.560 one company, it's great corporate governance for him to move. 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.440 Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about what 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.440 could stop this merger. It's not going to be a 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:22.920 shareholder lawsuit. 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:28.880 Although I've written about like it's like a slim outside 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.319 path to maybe a shareholder. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:36.320 Maybe Vanguard, maybe Fidelity. No, probably not. But the New 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:40.360 York Times did raise the question, which it then batted down. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:44.680 But couldn't there be some sort of antitrust concern here 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.520 that could be raised? They're both AI companies. 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.760 I feel like in traditional anti trust you would say 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:55.080 not really. I don't think that SpaceX is exactly in 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.960 a real market power position in the sort of broad 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.480 like AI lab business, and like it has a very 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.520 leading position in launching rockets into space for sure, and Tesla, 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.000 you know, arguably it's something in electric cars in the US, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.520 it's not you know, it's not a monopolist and electric cars, 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.560 but like those are not overlapping businesses, right, Like the 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.560 question is like are you combining to overlapping businesses in 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.880 the same area. And I don't really think that's true. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.200 I think there's like beginning to be some rumblings of 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.280 worry about like space access position and AI infrastructure, like 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.640 especially they put the data centers in space, but like 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.920 that doesn't really seem like an anti trust concern for 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.840 combining the companies. But like, I think if this were 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.080 a democratic administration, the combination of like two giant tech 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.400 companies merging and like it being Elon Musk might raise 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.079 anti trust concerns. But guess what, Yeah, so I don't 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.240 see it. But you know, if Donald Trump is mad 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.200 at Elon Musk that week, will there be an antro 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.280 trust problem? Like maybe, and then like European. 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:55.800 Anti trust you know, yeah, they're going to be all 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:56.200 over it. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.160 They'll be all over it. He's not winning any friends there. 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.280 And again, like a traditional anti dress analysis, like it 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:07.160 doesn't seem like they're really emerging competing businesses, but who knows. 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.080 I did want to also call out this nugget from 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.080 the New York Times report because I didn't appreciate this. 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.640 I knew about terrorfab so SpaceX and Tesla plan to 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.880 jointly produce AI chips at a proposed factory called TERRAFAB 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.840 also develop AI software through another project called macro Hard, 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.280 which is obviously the opposite of Microsoft. 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.760 I think he's been making that joke for years. 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:38.000 Sounds stupid, I mean it's funny. It is funny. I 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.600 didn't know about what I didn't know about macro Hard. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.760 I hate to give him one, but yeah, macro Hard, 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:48.400 nodding wistfully. 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.120 Oh, do you want to talk about Triller? 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.280 Triller? Yeah? I do kind of want to talk about Trailler. 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.320 So I went to your bio just before this podcast 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:58.679 because I was like, all right, I have all my notes. 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.400 Christmas guy again, matt Levine. No, I was like, I 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.120 have all my notes. I just want to check one 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.840 more thing. And then I saw you published about the 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.240 SpaceX Treasury. 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:09.559 Company treasury company. Baby. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.600 I audibly growned because I had completely forgotten about it. Yeah, 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:13.720 but tell me about Triller. 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.760 There's a SpaceX Treasury company, of course, called Triller. Yeah, yesterday, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.760 it's a fifteen million dollar market cap. It's like it's 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.400 like one of these things where they're like, we provide 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.199 social media stuff for such celebrities as and then it 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.400 names three people who I'm like, yes, these people are 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.240 all actually famous, but I don't know anything about them, 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.200 nor do I remember their names. No, they do like 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.880 some something in social media. And also they sell insurance 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:39.559 in Hong Kong. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.560 Why who knows natural But so. 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.599 A teeny company, teeny public lesi company, and they announced 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:51.200 that they are acquiring a four hundred million dollar slug 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.440 of SpaceX through like three layers of SPVs, so like 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.959 they're acquiring shares in an SPV that on shares in 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.720 an SPV that owns some like pre appo locked up 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:06.160 SpaceX stock excellent, yes, and they're like, this will be 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.240 a fun new treasury asset for US. Okay, it's like 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.920 the digital asset treasury trade, which you know, at its 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.920 peak last year. I was like, we talked. 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:15.880 About this definitely. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.320 I was like, sure, you can like sell some stock 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.480 to buy bitcoin, but like, there's so many other things 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.080 in the world besides bitcoin. Someone did a game stop treasure. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.000 We talked about an art market treasure all sorts of stuff. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.720 Dinosaur bone, dinosaur bone treasury company. That was the title 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:34.520 of an episode. And right, so instead of a dinosaur 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.800 bone treasury company, they're doing a SpaceX treasury company. I 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:38.160 love it. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.800 As you've already pointed out, they're at least a year 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:42.880 late here, they're a year late. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.280 To the Dinosaur Bone treasury company trade. And also they're 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.560 late to ooh, would you like access to SpaceX stock 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.720 because you can just buy SpaceX. 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.320 Stock seems easy. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.000 It's like not a very good reason, but a reason 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:58.840 to have a bitcoin treasury company is that, like it 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.320 is somewhat more difficult for a normal person to buy 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.000 bitcoin than it is for a normal person to buy 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.040 stock of strategy, Like not really you can buy bitcoin. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:09.600 You're robbing it app. But like maybe you don't have 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.160 robbing It. Maybe maybe you had an old timey record 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.480 where you can only buy stock and you're like, oh yeah, strategy, 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.720 that's a good way to get bitcoin. But like anyone 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.000 who can buy Triller can buy SpaceX because they're on 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:22.240 the same stock exchange. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:26.680 Yes, well, it will be a fun experiment. It's a 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:43.720 line I'll watch when on All, right, do we get 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:50.160 this SpaceX out of our system? Meta Meta? Another New 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.680 York Times article, Mark Zuckerberg, Now he's looking at prediction markets, 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.840 specifically an app. There wouldn't be real money. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.760 Involved, right, I think it's called arena that has been 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:06.320 reported from meta slash Facebook that allows you to do 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.120 prediction markets, and I think the way it's supposed to 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.520 work is like from NPR reporting, is that AI would 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.360 come up with the markets and then also resolve the markets. 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.400 Some meta AI model would be like, you know what 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.960 we need as a prediction market on you know, Vner 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.400 Taylor Slip get married and then here are the options 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.760 and then like it'll take bets and then like it'll 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.200 notice when she gets married and resolved bets or something 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:29.600 like that. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:30.000 Fun. 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.400 Yeah, So when you think about like Calshier poly market, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.920 like they're like, we're you know, building truth machines. We're 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.320 building a financial market that real world companies can use 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.800 the hedge their risk of things like you know, the 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:42.560 next winning. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.320 A playoff game with a very straight But then like. 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.400 The alternative model is like you have built a gambling platform. 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.440 What is gambling? Gambling is providing entertainment for money, right, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.840 It's like, yeah, it's like giving people like the rush 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.720 of excitement from betting on a game, and like in expectation, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:03.200 they lose money. But I've gone to Vegas and gambled 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.440 and felt and lost money and felt fine because I 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.840 was like, I'm spending this money on entertainment, right, and 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.760 that's like that's the good case for gambling. And if 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.560 that's your model, then it's like, well yeah, like if 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.800 it's entertaining, maybe you can do it without the money. 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:24.879 And Facebook are really good at harnessing human behavior to 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.680 like give people dopamine heads in exchange for spending all 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.639 of their time on Facebook's apps, and like that's what 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.200 this is, right, That's why Calshei and polymarket have proved 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.440 out a new form of human social behavior that keeps 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.199 them glued to their apps all the time. And like, 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.840 we want them to be glued to ara apps, so 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.720 we're gonna launch an app that they'll be glued to, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:44.119 you know, making predictions. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.000 It is a smart move by Meta. 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:48.760 It's quite grim in some ways. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:50.760 I mean for sure, I mean, like it better. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.840 To have fake money gambling than real money gambling. But 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:53.359 like I don't know. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.800 The company is not ruled out eventual use of money 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.840 according to the New Time, so that could be coming. 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.200 I do like how how you wrote that Zuckerberg's point 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.840 that this could be all thought of as addictive phone 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:10.919 apps rather than financial instruments is true. Like again, like 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.399 Calci and Polymarket will tell you with a straight face 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.960 that you know we're creating or we're helping to find 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.199 true economic information here, but it does feel like a 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.919 sort of emperor has no close moment of Facebook is 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:26.359 creating a prediction markets app. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.800 Yeah, a couple of things. One, everything's on a continuum, right, 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.800 I mean, Robinhood. Their essential insight is stock trading is 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.200 also like an addictive phone behavior, and so we can 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.160 make it more addictive and more on your phone. True, 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.040 everything is both right. The other thing I'll say is 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:44.520 like the fact that Meta is in essentially the addictive 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.160 phone apps business and looks at this and has big 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.000 dollar signs in its thighs of like, ooh, this is 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.280 an addictive phone app. That doesn't mean that it's not 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.720 also serving some truth seeking function. 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.240 Maybe maybe just thinking about Farmville, you know, which was 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:00.840 another face book app that I. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:02.640 Loved, right and Farmville. 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.080 I don't know if there was any truth seeking going 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:06.920 on in the hours I spent on Farmville. 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.320 Well, I hear you, But like, also I'm reading the 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.560 Sebastian Malaby biography of Demi Sasabis. The Google Deep Mind 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.840 Fighter and deep Mind spent a lot of time trying 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.960 to solve games like early Atari, arcade games and StarCraft, 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:26.040 all these like video games because and the reason they 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.240 were doing that is partly because like they're gamers and 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.159 they like video games, but partly it was like the 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.719 way to develop and also prove the concept of like 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.840 reinforcement learning machine artificial intelligence is to have it learned 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:41.960 to play games at better than human standard, and so 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.800 there's like real lessons to be learned from those games. 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.480 That's probably not true of Farmville, but I do think 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.240 that one thing that is probably going on, and Berne 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.000 Hobart has a good newsletter about it on Thursday of 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.720 this week is Meta is one an addictive phone app 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:03.640 company and two AI company, and prediction markets in AI 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.240 are pretty interesting. Wen't have our rights. Prediction markets try 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.000