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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hi, Kate, Hey, Paul, you're looking

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Speaker 1: forward to hearing more about the story of Mary Rogers.

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Speaker 2: I am. I haven't stopped thinking about this case since

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Speaker 2: the last time we talked about it.

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Speaker 1: You haven't stopped thinking about a case from eighteen forty one.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's just, you know, it's like I want to

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Speaker 2: know this, this and this, you know, And we got

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Speaker 2: to the point of Mary's body being recovered. Civilians seeing

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Speaker 2: a decomposing body floating in the water, which I don't

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Speaker 2: put a lot of weight on their observations, you know,

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Speaker 2: That's where I'm really interested to see what the medical

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Speaker 2: people said happened to Mary in terms of her injuries

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Speaker 2: and stuff. But also you know where her body's located,

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Speaker 2: you know, outside of the Sibyl's Cave in the Hudson River,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I actually did some research, some research

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Speaker 2: on the tides and Hudson River. You know, started rolling

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Speaker 2: up my sleeves a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I mean, thank goodness, we need you to dig in

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Speaker 1: sometimes on these details that just you can't let go of.

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Speaker 1: So that's good. So before we do a quick summary

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Speaker 1: of the case, I just wanted to give a trigger

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Speaker 1: warning that we are going to be talking about sexual

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Speaker 1: assault in this case. So Mary Rogers is twenty one,

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Speaker 1: it's eighteen forty one. It's in New York City, and

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Speaker 1: she lives at a boarding house that her mother runs,

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Speaker 1: along with a slew of lodgers, two of whom she's

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Speaker 1: been involved with, One who she seems to be in

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Speaker 1: love with and engaged to. He is described as an

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Speaker 1: alcoholic but a jovial kind of guy. That's Daniel. There's

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Speaker 1: another man named Alfred who not so much. He really

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Speaker 1: pines for Mary, but she has sort of rejected him.

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Speaker 1: At this point he is very angry. He's left in

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Speaker 1: a huff. And then a month later, Mary Rogers is found,

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Speaker 1: as you just mentioned, in the Hudson River in a

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Speaker 1: particular area, and her body has been in the water

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Speaker 1: for three days, and we are trying to kind of

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Speaker 1: figure out the level of decomposition. And it's a hot

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Speaker 1: summer day when she's discovered, and it is very clear

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Speaker 1: to everyone that has seen her that she has extensive injuries.

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Speaker 1: And after I hear about your information about the Hudson

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Speaker 1: River and where she was found, I'll tell you what

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Speaker 1: the corner says, which I think is very illuminating.

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Speaker 2: Part of what I want to do is reconstruct based

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Speaker 2: off of you know, tides, where Mary likely would have

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Speaker 2: gone into the water. Now she's been in the water

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Speaker 2: for three days, I think that's an assumption. So that's

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Speaker 2: part of truly really digging into what Mary looked like,

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Speaker 2: her state of decomposition. Is there any cessile marine organisms

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Speaker 2: that are now on her body that could help indicate

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Speaker 2: how long she's been in the water, et cetera. But

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Speaker 2: in terms of the currents and the Hudson River, you know,

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Speaker 2: where did she go into the water, And this is

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Speaker 2: where I think it's important because that now, if that

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Speaker 2: can be somewhat isolated, you know, that indicates because we

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Speaker 2: know where Mary was she left the boarding house. Now

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Speaker 2: we don't know for sure she never made it to

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Speaker 2: her aunt's house, and we don't know if she actually

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Speaker 2: walked in the direction of her aunt's house. And I

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Speaker 2: don't even know where the aunts house is, but it's

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Speaker 2: not too far away from the boarding house I'm looking at. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the boarding house is roughly by City Hall, and where

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Speaker 2: Mary's body is found floating, it's about maybe a little

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Speaker 2: less than two and a half miles straight shot, you know,

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Speaker 2: so it's a significant distance. But the tides are interesting

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Speaker 2: in the Hudson River, you know, even though it's a

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Speaker 2: river and you're thinking, you know, currents are flowing one direction. Well,

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Speaker 2: it turns out, well, the direction of the water in

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Speaker 2: the Hudson River is based on the tides itself. So

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Speaker 2: when the tides are rising, the water flows north, and

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Speaker 2: when the tides are subsiding, which is of course going

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Speaker 2: to be a daily cycle, the water's flowing south. So

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Speaker 2: you can see now where Mary's body is kind of

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Speaker 2: moving no worth moving south from where you know, ultimately

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Speaker 2: her point of entry was, so that complicates trying to

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Speaker 2: really narrow down that origin. It's also going to be Okay,

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Speaker 2: what time if we assume she was killed on July

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth, eighteen forty one, within a few hours of

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Speaker 2: her leaving the boarding house, what tide was it at

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Speaker 2: that time? And then now talking to the marriytime experts, Okay,

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Speaker 2: how did these tides shift? And can we at least

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Speaker 2: narrow down an approximate location where Mary's body likely went

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Speaker 2: into the water and what is that distance? What route

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Speaker 2: would the offender and Mary have to take to get

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Speaker 2: to that spot. That helps build up a timeline, so

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Speaker 2: to speak.

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Speaker 1: And so you've got this timeline. If Daniel and Alfred

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Speaker 1: both have alibis that night, how would the timeline help.

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Speaker 1: Would we just say, well, one was in the Bronx

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Speaker 1: and the other one was in Brooklyn, So it couldn't

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Speaker 1: have been either one of them because we can kind

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Speaker 1: of predict where body was. Or does that not make sense?

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Speaker 2: Well it could, you know, Again, it all depends on

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Speaker 2: what their statements are. But it also if there is

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Speaker 2: like a somewhat narrow region where Mary's body went into

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Speaker 2: the water, then it's going and talking to people who

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Speaker 2: are in that region at the time, you know, Mary,

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Speaker 2: likeliest place in the water, What did they see, you know?

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Speaker 2: So it gives the investigation some potential more information and

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Speaker 2: maybe some more leads to follow up on.

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Speaker 1: Let's get to the injuries, because we do have a

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Speaker 1: coroner from New Jersey named doctor and I want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize I don't know if we've had a coroner who's

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Speaker 1: a doctor before doctor Richard Cook, who you're either going

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Speaker 1: to love or think is silly one or the other.

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Speaker 1: I think, Okay, I really don't remember the last time

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Speaker 1: we've had doctor before the name of a coroner, and

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Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. It's you know, an elected position, right,

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Speaker 1: so he didn't have to have experience, but he says

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Speaker 1: he has pretty extensive experience examining people who are victims

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Speaker 1: of drowning. And he says, after looking at Mary's body,

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Speaker 1: that is not what happened here. I'm gonna just say

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Speaker 1: a bunch of words that doctor Cook says, and then

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Speaker 1: I'll stop and then you tell me because these are

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Speaker 1: all related to drowning, and you tell me if what

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Speaker 1: he's saying makes sense. This is in regards to a

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Speaker 1: drowning and why he doesn't think it's a drowning. He

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Speaker 1: thinks that her blood is too coagulated, and that her

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Speaker 1: crossed arms, which are in a stiff position that they

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Speaker 1: can only be uncrossed using force, are not consistent. Those

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Speaker 1: crossed arms are not consistent with the form that you'd

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Speaker 1: expect to see in a drowning victim. A person's arms

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Speaker 1: would likely be moving around their sides ahead of his

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Speaker 1: or her death. He says. The face when I examined

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Speaker 1: it was suffused with blood, bruised blood. There was frothy

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Speaker 1: blood still issuing from the mouth, but no foam, which

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Speaker 1: issues from the mouth of persons who die by drowning.

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Speaker 1: Her face was swollen, the veins were highly distended. If

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Speaker 1: she had been drowned, there would not have been those

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Speaker 1: particular appearances that I found in the veins. What is

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Speaker 1: he saying?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, what he's saying is is Mary was killed

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Speaker 2: and left on land for a period of time and

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Speaker 2: then placed in the water. Her posture in the water

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Speaker 2: on her back, with the arms crossed, that didn't add

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Speaker 2: up to me. So he's he is saying, Okay, she's

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Speaker 2: in rigor. You know at the time he's conducting the autopsy,

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Speaker 2: and she must have been entering rigor with her arms

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Speaker 2: in this position when she was placed in the water,

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Speaker 2: So the arms don't just flop down as what you

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Speaker 2: typically see when you have, let's say, somebody who has

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Speaker 2: been freshly killed and put in the water, or somebody

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Speaker 2: who drowns and now goes limp. So this is important

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Speaker 2: because now, kind of like I said, we're assuming Mary

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Speaker 2: was in the water for three days. Doctor Cook, who's

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Speaker 2: got what sounds like extensive experience because he's dealing with

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Speaker 2: bodies out of the waterways here in the New York

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Speaker 2: area all the time, coming through the coroner's office, so

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Speaker 2: he is an expert, and so I put a lot

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Speaker 2: of veracity on his observations. So now we have a

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Speaker 2: larger window of time where Mary walks away from the

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Speaker 2: boarding house. We don't know what happens, but she runs

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Speaker 2: across an offender, she's killed, and then there's a time period,

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Speaker 2: unknown time period in which Mary is not necessarily left,

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Speaker 2: but she is not in the water for a period

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Speaker 2: of time to allow rigor to develop and her arms

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Speaker 2: to be fixed in this cross position. Now, of course,

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Speaker 2: does he have the expertise to observe potential binding marks

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Speaker 2: like her arms have been bound and would those be

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Speaker 2: obscured by being in the water for a period of

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Speaker 2: time and likely not, you know. But that's where this

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Speaker 2: gets interesting, because now the offender is either with Mary

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Speaker 2: for a period of time after she's dead and then

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Speaker 2: places her in the water, or the offender leaves Mary

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Speaker 2: in a hidden location and then comes back and moves

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Speaker 2: her body and dumps it into the water.

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Speaker 1: He has a lot of details that I think are

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Speaker 1: really interesting and they're sort of out of order, but

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Speaker 1: I want to go back real quick because he says

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Speaker 1: a lot of phrases that I don't know why they're

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Speaker 1: relevant to a drowning specifically, So her blood is too coagulated,

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Speaker 1: What does that have to do with drowning and what

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Speaker 1: does he mean by that?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is where you start talking about sort of

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Speaker 2: the water intrusion into the body, and what he is

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Speaker 2: noticing is is that there's a lack of the intrusion.

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Speaker 2: You know, the blood when it gets dilute, doesn't coagulate.

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Speaker 2: And so he's observing like he's seen all these other

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Speaker 2: drowning victims who have been in the water. You know,

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Speaker 2: the water for at least as long as Mary, if

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Speaker 2: not much longer, and he generally doesn't see the blood

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Speaker 2: start to thicken up and coagulate inside the body like

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Speaker 2: what he's seeing with Mary. So he's also drawing that opinion, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she's dead before going in now. Of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the diagnostic aspects of drowning victims is you know,

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Speaker 2: as they're in the water, still alive, they ultimately breathe

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Speaker 2: water into their lungs. And he's making an observation that

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Speaker 2: that's not the case. I don't know if he said

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Speaker 2: that very clearly, but he's talking about there is bloody foam,

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Speaker 2: but there isn't the froth that he typically sees in

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Speaker 2: a drowning victim. You know, you get this bloody purge

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Speaker 2: when somebody dies and you've got some decomposition going on.

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Speaker 2: But this froth is what he's kind of keying in on,

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Speaker 2: going what's coming out of her mouth, her nasal mouth

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Speaker 2: area is not consistent with what he sees with drowning victims.

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Speaker 2: You know, where now you have the water that is

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Speaker 2: mixing with the physiological fluids internally, and then now you

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Speaker 2: have this foamy material that is now being exuded out

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Speaker 2: of the oral cavity, out of the nostrils.

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Speaker 1: Am I dense in thinking? How would frothy material be

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Speaker 1: anywhere on her body when she's been in the water

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Speaker 1: for so long, banging against stuff and being washed over.

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Speaker 1: How is anything frothy or any blood external blood or

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Speaker 1: anything showing up on her body? Or am I misunderstanding?

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Speaker 2: It's after she's pulled out of the water. Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, so, yeah, for sure, something like that froth

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Speaker 2: is going to wash away. But after she's taken out

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Speaker 2: of the water and you've got you know, maybe some

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Speaker 2: of the some air still within the lung cavity, You've

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Speaker 2: got gases that are developing as a matter of decomposition

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Speaker 2: as those are being expressed up through the trachea and

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Speaker 2: then out of the oral cavity. If there is the

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Speaker 2: blood or if there is this secretion as a result

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Speaker 2: of it's almost like an edema. You know, the lungs

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Speaker 2: they're trying to protect themselves and they get exposed to

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Speaker 2: the water, and now you have the body reacting and

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Speaker 2: you've got these proteins and cells, and the air mixes

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Speaker 2: with that. It creates that froth and so now that's

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Speaker 2: what happens after she's pulled out of the water.

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Speaker 1: You know, we did a tenfold season season eleven, and

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Speaker 1: I think I might have mentioned this to you. A

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Speaker 1: woman who dies mysteriously in a fire. When the women

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Speaker 1: in the village were dressing her, this is in the

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Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds, were dressing her, there was some blood that

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Speaker 1: came out of her man I think through her nose

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Speaker 1: or her ear maybe, And in the sixteen hundreds, that

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Speaker 1: was a sign of the devil that she had been overtaken.

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Speaker 1: I know you're smiling, but this was not a funny

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Speaker 1: matter in the sixteen hundreds. But they didn't understand that.

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad that you clarified so nobody thinks this

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Speaker 1: is attached to the devil. I don't know why. I'm

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Speaker 1: surprised by that that things come out of people's bodies,

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Speaker 1: you know, after they die. It's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that's just a lot of that

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Speaker 2: is just experience and seeing bodies that are dead, you know.

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Speaker 2: And if you go and see somebody who's overdosed and

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Speaker 2: you see the froth that is coming out of their mouth,

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Speaker 2: they've overdosed on something like heroin, now to a suspicious

249
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Speaker 2: death that involved a teenage boy that drank way too

250
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Speaker 2: much cough suroupe and codeine, and he had all this

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Speaker 2: froth coming out of his mouth and his nose. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's just part of the body's physiological response.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me give you some more information. So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like, right now, you're a fan of doctor Cook,

255
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Speaker 1: it sounds like he knows somewhat what he's doing here,

256
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Speaker 1: because so far he's giving you some pretty good details, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, for a doctor in eighteen forty one, who

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Speaker 2: is you know, pulling bodies out of the waterways in

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Speaker 2: New York all the time, and looking at him, he

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Speaker 2: has expertise. Yeah, maybe not at the level of a

261
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Speaker 2: modern forensic pathologist, but what he is describing and observing

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Speaker 2: I put far more weight on than anybody that was

263
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Speaker 2: on the shore, you know, poking her with a stick

264
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Speaker 2: and saying how horrendous she looked.

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Speaker 1: Right now, he is, of course convinced that she's been murdered.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why I buried the lead a

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Speaker 1: little bit. There's two things that lead him to believe

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Speaker 1: that she died of strangulation, and I think he thinks

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Speaker 1: it's important to establish specifically how she died. So I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you the less interesting one. He says

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Speaker 1: that this is a quote, a deep bruise about the

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Speaker 1: size and shape of a man's thumb on the right

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Speaker 1: side of her neck, near the jugular vein, and he

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Speaker 1: found several smaller bruises on the left side resembling the

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Speaker 1: shape of a man's finger. So really that would be

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Speaker 1: present still after three days in some decomposition, he would

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Speaker 1: be able to see those markings that clearly to say

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Speaker 1: this came from a man.

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Speaker 2: Well, probably overstating the source of these bruises, but the

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Speaker 2: observation of those bruises is important, you know. But more

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Speaker 2: important is did he dissect the neck?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't have information on the neck because he's

283
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Speaker 1: concentrating on her lower region, and I'll get to that

284
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Speaker 1: in a second. Because what he finds that is very

285
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Speaker 1: obvious to everybody is that there is a piece of

286
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Speaker 1: lace which has been pulled from her underskirt and it

287
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 1: is wrapped around her neck, and somebody made a gag

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Speaker 1: from her underwear. Okay, so he is saying that he

289
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Speaker 1: thinks she has been strangled both with this lace and

290
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Speaker 1: gagged and manually strangled and that's what happened to her body,

291
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Speaker 1: and of course beaten beyond belief.

292
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the duality in terms of the strangulation methods

293
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,560
Speaker 2: is relatively common. Oftentimes the offender will start with manual

294
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Speaker 2: strangulation and either kills the victim that way or the

295
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 2: victim succumbs goes unconscious, and then a ligature is applied

296
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Speaker 2: to the neck afterwards. So that is a sequence that

297
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 2: is often seen and I've talked about this I think

298
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Speaker 2: a little bit before on Buried Bones. Is that you know,

299
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Speaker 2: many of these offenders they don't know if they've actually

300
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Speaker 2: accomplished killing the person through strangulation. They just know the

301
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Speaker 2: person is unconscious, and so to ensure that the person

302
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Speaker 2: is dead, then they will go ahead and apply a

303
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,159
Speaker 2: ligature so that that person actually there's no way that person,

304
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,919
Speaker 2: that victim could could recover from that. The offender is

305
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 2: utilizing the victim's own clothing, He's not bringing binding material

306
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 2: with him, so that's that's a significant observation. And the

307
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,159
Speaker 2: ligature that is being used is coming from an undergarment,

308
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Speaker 2: you know, So this starts to really support that this

309
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Speaker 2: is a sexually motivated crime, but it sounds like there's

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Speaker 2: other observations on her body that you're going to get to.

311
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Speaker 1: Quite a few. First of all, she does have ligature

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Speaker 1: marks on her wrists.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so binding marks.

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Speaker 1: They say ligature, So what's it tell me what the

315
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 1: difference is.

316
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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a little bit of a pet peeve

317
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Speaker 2: in terms of the use of these these terms. So,

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Speaker 2: a ligature is a material that encircles a body part

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Speaker 2: to cut off circulation. Binding is a material that is

320
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Speaker 2: applied to the extremities to prevent movement. People often will call,

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Speaker 2: you know, bindings on the wrist as ligatures. Well, the

322
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 2: offender is not applying this binding material to cut off

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Speaker 2: circulation to the victim's hands. They're doing it to prevent movement.

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Speaker 2: When I'm talking to let's say, other experts, and I

325
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Speaker 2: see them or hear them misusing those terms, I go, oh, well,

326
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Speaker 2: maybe they're not as much of an expert as what

327
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Speaker 2: I thought they were. Oh no, So everybody out there

328
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Speaker 2: dial in on ligature versus binding.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm going to get to his speculation in

330
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Speaker 1: a minute, but we'll continue on with this autopsy. So

331
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Speaker 1: let's talk about the potential sexual assault here. He says

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Speaker 1: Mary's not pregnant at the time of her death, and

333
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Speaker 1: actually that note's going to be important later on. He

334
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: does not see evidence that she was pregnant, like as

335
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,679
Speaker 1: in a termination of pregnancy. So this is what he finds.

336
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Speaker 1: Bruising in abrasions in the quote unquote feminine region, as

337
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 1: well as skin that is rubbed raw on her back

338
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Speaker 1: and her shoulders. So he says that he leaves that

339
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,719
Speaker 1: she has been laid down on a rough surface and

340
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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted. He says, by quote no fewer than three assailants.

341
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Speaker 1: I have no idea why. He thinks that it must

342
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: have just been the vast amount of injuries that she

343
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 1: had that he just thought one guy is not going

344
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: to be able to do this. But he says she

345
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted before or after she was killed. He

346
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:25,639
Speaker 1: is sure of it.

347
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Speaker 2: So I'm liking doctor Cook's observations. And yes, there are

348
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 2: instances on women's bodies with these types of abrasions on

349
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,959
Speaker 2: the buttocks region or the lower back as well as

350
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 2: the upper back during sexual assault and if they've been

351
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,479
Speaker 2: on a substrate that is somewhat rough. So he spot

352
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,640
Speaker 2: on with that, though you know that can also those

353
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 2: types of abrations can occur from other activities, you know,

354
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 2: a body dragging, movement of body, transport a body. But

355
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,160
Speaker 2: this statement about at least three men, no, no way

356
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,439
Speaker 2: could he ever make that detail. Basically, we don't know

357
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 2: how many men. I mean, could multiple offenders have sexually

358
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 2: assaulted Mary, absolutely, but the likelihood of that is low

359
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,880
Speaker 2: relative to a single offender operating by himself.

360
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: It sounds like he might have been insinuating it was

361
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 1: one of these criminal gangs roaming the streets of New York.

362
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 1: But he's got some more observations. He believes that she

363
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 1: had been undressed and then killed, and then dressed back

364
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: in her clothes, including her hat, and then her body

365
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: was moved to its dumping spot in the river. I

366
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: have never understood why redressing If you're just going to

367
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: dump her in the river, Why put her clothes and

368
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 1: including her hat, and she had her gloves onto.

369
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Speaker 2: This is more common than not in terms of the

370
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 2: offender either allowing the victim to redress and then killing

371
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,360
Speaker 2: the victim, or you know, kills a victim and then

372
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: redresses a victim. It's not an unusual circumstance. Now you

373
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 2: think about in this case, the offender likely is not

374
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: sexually assaulting Mary right on the shore you know of

375
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 2: you know, of Sybil's cave or something somewhere else. Now

376
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 2: he has to transport a body. If he's seen, it's

377
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 2: probably a little suspicious that he's got a nude female

378
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: body and a bag of clothes versus well, I'm going

379
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 2: to put the clothes on the female's body, and he

380
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 2: might be able to pass her off as having you know,

381
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 2: gone unconscious because she had too much to drink, you know,

382
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 2: or people will just see her, who knows, if there's

383
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 2: a carriage is involved, you know, and she's just propped

384
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 2: up to look like she's asleep. But there's a practical

385
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,919
Speaker 2: aspect in this situation. And like I said, as I

386
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: believe based on doctor Cook's observations that Mary is not

387
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: in the water for a period of time. Don't know

388
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: how long that is, But there may be something that

389
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: the offender is now redressing Mary knowing well she's going

390
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: to be laying at a location while I try to

391
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 2: figure out what I'm going to do with her.

392
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: Is the crossing of her arm before rigor and then

393
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: you know that's how she ends up. Does that tell

394
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: you anything or That wouldn't have been something she would

395
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: have done. It would have been him. Does that tell

396
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: you anything about the guy? About the person?

397
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 2: In most instances, when you see arms and legs being

398
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: bound up, it's for packaging, okay, it's to make the

399
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 2: body easier to move.

400
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of packaging, this is what doctor Cook says happened.

401
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 1: He said, whoever did this, if there's more than one person,

402
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, whoever moved her actually moved her tore off

403
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 1: a piece of her dress and tied it around her

404
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: waist after she had been redressed, and used it like

405
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: a handle to move her body. He said it wasn't

406
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: delicate either, because she's got scratch marks and drag marks

407
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: all over herself. I had thought, for a millisecond, would

408
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: you really need that? You would need a handle? I

409
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: don't know. Is that odd to you?

410
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: I've actually I consulted on a case, in fact, one

411
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: that I presented with max Eryl McCollum on a crime cruise,

412
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 2: in which it wasn't the woman's own clothing, but the

413
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: way that the rope had been used to bind her

414
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: up as well as went through the belt loops around

415
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 2: her waist, And it was for the same reason this

416
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 2: was to provide a carrying handle. Even though Mary's petite,

417
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 2: likely she still weighs over one hundred pounds, and you

418
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 2: think about something like picking up a ninety pound bag

419
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 2: of cement that's still heavy for most people. Now you

420
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: have a body that has length, a body that possibly

421
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: is going to flop around, and now Mary's in rigor,

422
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 2: so some of that flopping is not going to occur.

423
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 2: But this offender sounds like, well, I need to make

424
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: my life easier and recognize that there's an article of

425
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: clothing with Mary that had the strength to be able

426
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 2: to utilize it as a handle, and it's just the

427
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: offender making his life easier.

428
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: Well, we now have a series of decisions made that

429
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: will affect the way that people view Mary Rogers moving forward,

430
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,959
Speaker 1: So it starts really with doctor Cook. He says to

431
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: the press that Mary had evidently been a person of

432
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: chastity and correct habits. Probably that meant because she wasn't pregnant,

433
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 1: and he didn't find evidence that she had been recently pregnant,

434
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: But modern day authors have said it's probably because out

435
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: of propriety, he was trying to preserve her dignity, particularly

436
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: about the way she was found and it seemed clear

437
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: to him that she had been sexually assaulted and this

438
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: was not rough sex or you know, consensual in any way,

439
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: but because he had to report on the state of

440
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: all of her body, it would have been sort of salacious.

441
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: And we're also in a time period when people would

442
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: have said the woman was asking for it or she

443
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: did something, and this is a woman who been in

444
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: the society pages, that she must have been promiscuous. Instead,

445
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: what happens is the press latches onto this and says, well,

446
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, based on what your findings are, something

447
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: was going on with her, and they start framing him

448
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: as incompetent and bumbling essentially, and saying that we don't

449
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: think that he actually knows what he's talking about, that

450
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: he's sort of fibbing in a way to make Mary

451
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: look good, when I think he was just trying to

452
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: be a nice man and felt uncomfortable revealing information about

453
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: a woman and then having people make assumptions about her.

454
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: But this starts framing this whole investigation is being sort

455
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: of bumbling a little bit.

456
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: He goes outside of the medical evaluation of Mary. All

457
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: he can say is that she's not pregnant at the

458
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: time of her death, nor does she have any indications

459
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: that she's had a recent abortion. He could not draw

460
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: a conclusion about her sexual habits prior to her being killed.

461
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: And that's where I think, you know, now, when he

462
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: makes that statement, people are recognizing that. You know, they're going, oh,

463
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: hold on. But everything that he's done, I mean, he's

464
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: made some overstatements, but I think fundamentally, for eighteen forty one,

465
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: I'm relatively impressed with what doctor Cook was able to discern.

466
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: Well because the jerks and the press make such a

467
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: big deal about it. Daniel Stashouer, who is the author

468
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: of the book that we've been talking about, says that

469
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: Mary's body goes through another exam, but this time with

470
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: a corner in New York, and the corner in New

471
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: York says it wasn't strangulation. She was strangled, but I

472
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: find evidence of drowning, and it just sounds like, you know,

473
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: if he had agreed, if he had agreed with doctor Cook,

474
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: that the press would have skewed him also. But we

475
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: see zero evidence that she had been drowned, and it

476
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like there's even like a scene there. We

477
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: will find a scene we think later on where we

478
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: think this happened, but it was not on the shore

479
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: of the Hudson River.

480
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and in these instances, with subsequent autopsies,

481
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: and those of course still occur today, you know, the

482
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 2: family will hire a private pathologist to kind of come

483
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: in and perform a second autopsy. But they are at

484
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: such a disadvantage, you know, if a full autopsy is

485
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: conducted on the victim's body. On Mary's body, I mean,

486
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: she's completely dissected her organs. You know, the standard thing

487
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: is all the organs are placed in a plastic bag

488
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: and intermingled and cut up and they're now you know,

489
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: put back into her abdominal cavity, chess cavity. And she's

490
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: also in a so the second New York pathologist maybe

491
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: he's seeing things, you know, that he's interpreting. It's just

492
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: that her body is so disrupted. I put far more

493
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 2: weight on doctor Cook's initial autopsy, and when it comes

494
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: to the drowning because of doctor Cook's experience, I truly

495
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: believe that he if he saw evidence of drowning, he

496
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: would be detailing that evidence. And he doesn't. He forms

497
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: the opposite conclusion and the other aspects such as the

498
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: arms being crossed in rigor support she died on land

499
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: and then is placed in the water.

500
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: Well, we need to now leave the medical section here.

501
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: I think we are done with doctor Cook and any

502
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: kind of controversy that his very honest autopsy turned up. Instead,

503
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: we need to kind of go back to victimology slash profiling.

504
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: So investigators, and I think I use that term loosely.

505
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: In eighteen thirties New York investigators start focusing in on

506
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 1: Daniel Payne. Even more importantly, the press starts focusing in

507
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: on him. There are all kinds of theory swirling around

508
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: in the Penny papers about what his potential motive would be.

509
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: This is all speculation and probably bs that she was

510
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: probably going to leave him, that just before the disappearance

511
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: Marian her mom had fought over the relationship that Mary

512
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: had with Daniel in their upcoming marriage. Phoebe is not

513
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: saying anything one way or the other about this, It's

514
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: just speculation. And then of course the thing I mentioned,

515
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: the press goes okay. Either Mary was doing something behind

516
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: Daniel's back and lying about going to her aunt's house,

517
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: or Daniel lied about it because he killed her one

518
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: way or the other. Daniel does not come off looking

519
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: very well in the press because they're really thinking who

520
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: else would this be. In the meantime, Alfred is continuing

521
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: to really emphasize how proper Mary was and just sort

522
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: of this angelic, wonderful woman. So you two men who

523
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: are having very different experiences.

524
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, how many times does a woman end up

525
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: dead and the spouse or boyfriend are immediately thought to

526
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: be the killer. This right now is a wide open investigation.

527
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: Daniel and Alfred are suspects. I use that term. Everybody

528
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: kind of assumes that when somebody uses a term suspect, well,

529
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: this person, there's a strong case against the person. No,

530
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: they're just something suspicious about the person. We have weak suspects.

531
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: We have strong suspects Daniel and Alfred because of their

532
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: relationship with Mary and because of some of the you know,

533
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: this lover's triangle or pseudo lover's triangle situation. Of course

534
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: they're going to be under suspicion. But let's take Daniel's

535
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: statements of what Mary said she was going to do.

536
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: She's going to go walk to her aunt's house. The

537
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: suspect pool is anybody. In this case, she could have

538
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: run across a serial predator she never met before, and

539
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: what's done to her is very much akin to that

540
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: type of stranger, fantasy motivated offender. So that is just

541
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 2: as strong of a possibility, and in my mind stronger

542
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: possibility with the information that you've told me now, because

543
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: I know there's probably going to be more Goatchi's coming down,

544
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: But I have to consider a stranger did this to Mary,

545
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: or she had a secret life, and whoever she was

546
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: meeting up with went off on her, you know, So

547
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: all of that is wide open in this case right

548
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: now in my mind.

549
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's talk more about Daniel, who for right

550
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: now is the press's prime suspect. Not necessarily investigators, they

551
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: want to know more information, but he is so disturbed

552
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: by this public campaign against him that he requests this

553
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: is welcome to eighteen hundreds seven sworn statements from his brother,

554
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: as well as a bunch of bar owners, restaurant owners

555
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: that account for his whereabouts that day. He had alibi,

556
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: He had various people who saw him pretty much to

557
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: the minute, you know, with the exception of the discussion

558
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: he had with Mary about meeting her somewhere account for

559
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: his day, and he says to Mary's mom, will you

560
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: write me a letter that says I looked for your

561
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to find her. I am not acting weird.

562
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: I loved her. I wanted to marry her. And he

563
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: turns all of these letters over to the newspaper because

564
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: even Phoebe says, okay, I'll write you this letter, and

565
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: they finally back off. But he has been what he

566
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: describes as basically terrorized by the local press over this story.

567
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: I will say, my dad's you know, as I've told you,

568
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: started the actual innocence clinic at the University of Texas.

569
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: And one of his attorneys who helped him with the

570
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: clinic was a guy named Bill Allison, who represented Michael Morton,

571
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: who was the man who spent more than twenty years

572
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: might have been twenty years exactly twenty years in prison

573
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: for murdering his wife in Texas. And you know, he

574
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: was exonerated and the real person was found using DNA evidence,

575
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: and Bill Allison, my dad's friend, Michael Morton's attorney, said

576
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: that when he put Michael Morton on the stand, he

577
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: was an awful witness. He said, the innocent man is

578
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: an awful witness because they don't know any thing. All

579
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: he can say is I don't know what happened. I

580
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 1: just know where I was. I can't give you any details.

581
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: And he said people didn't believe him, and that was that.

582
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: This is a scenario that plays itself out over and

583
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: over and over again in the pre DNA era, where

584
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: now based on circumstantial evidence, suspicious behaviors by the spouse

585
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: or the boyfriend, even making statements or confessions, you know,

586
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: under the duress of you know, professional interrogators if you will,

587
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: by law enforcement, and then DNA has shown no, they

588
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: were innocent. And that's where in this case Daniel and Alfred, yes,

589
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: they have to be considered. But the other possibilities I

590
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: mentioned before, serial predator, secret lover right now, they're all

591
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: on the even playing field as far as a you know,

592
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: being suspects.

593
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: With Mary's death, Yeah, I mean that is she has

594
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: a very big world between the tobacco shop and the

595
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: boarding house and just walking through and we've talked about

596
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: this with other stories where people disappear after leaving, there's

597
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: that whole other world. Well, Daniel has an incredibly difficult

598
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: time and for whatever reason, whether he's her killer or

599
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: a bereaved you know, fiance. He is tortured over this,

600
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 1: and he has a very sad ending. Probably about three

601
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: months or so, I would say, three months after she

602
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: has found he goes to New Jersey around the Hoboken area.

603
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: He goes to a couple of taverns and says, can

604
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: you tell me where the Sibyl's cave is? And not

605
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: long after that he is found dead. He had ingested

606
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: a fatal amount of laudanum, and this is the note

607
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: in his pocket. And I think it's important just because

608
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of speculation about it. He says to

609
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: the world, here I am on the spot. God forgive

610
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: me for my misfortune in my misspent life. And so

611
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: of course you've got people who say, well, he was

612
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: an awful grief and it was so symbolic that he

613
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: did it there where she was found. And then of

614
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: course other people said, well, he of course had a

615
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: guilty conscience for butchering his fiance. What do you think

616
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: about that note?

617
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: No, well, it could go either way. Yeah, there isn't

618
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 2: enough specific information. It's very obtuse. Is that the right word.

619
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 2: It's a little vague it's very vague. I can see

620
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: it going both ways, you know, you know, fundamentally it

621
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: comes down to, you know, in my mind, with Daniel. Okay,

622
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: let's see where the investigation goes. You know, could Daniel

623
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: have done this under what we know with Mary being strangled,

624
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, laying at a location for a period of time,

625
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: and then transported and being dumped into the river. Did

626
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: he have the means, the opportunity to be able to

627
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: accomplish the crime. It doesn't sound like the people that

628
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: were involved with the investigation knew how to truly lock

629
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: Daniel in one way or the other, you know, with

630
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 2: with the information you know, from his set of circumstances

631
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: in this day and age, In all likelihood, there was

632
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: seeman evidence with Mary, and this probably would have been

633
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: even though she's floating in the Hudson River. Most likely

634
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 2: would be a relatively easy case to solve.

635
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny because all of these rumors that float

636
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: around in little bits of information all lead the Penny

637
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: Press down some odd roads. Let's talk about Alfred, because

638
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: that's whom I was interested in because he seemed like

639
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: such a jealous jerk. Yeah, he is never under investigation,

640
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, by the police or whatever organized group there

641
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: was that was investigating this, but the Penny Press thought

642
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: he could be responsible. He says that while there's a

643
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: theory in the press that Alfred maybe knew that Mary

644
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: had been alive and left town and you know, maybe

645
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: he was hiding her away and she was safe. But

646
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: this woman posed and the river and he says, oh,

647
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: that's Mary Rogers. So they're kind of saying Mary is

648
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: actually in like a safe harbor somewhere, like she wanted

649
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: to run away from Daniel. That's wild, the speculation was,

650
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: even though both Daniel and Mary's mother also identified the

651
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: body later on. The idea was that, you know, Alfred

652
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: is protecting her and she wanted to flee, and then

653
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: he pins her identity on some random woman found in

654
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: the Hudson River, which just seems stupid to me.

655
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not buying that, you know, I did find

656
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: that it was curious that Alfred shows up. Yeah, at

657
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: the time that that Mary's body is pulled to shore.

658
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: It's almost as if, you know, we see this with

659
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 2: offenders who insert themselves into the investigation. They get there,

660
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: they're you're kind of walking around the crime scene, or

661
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: they're talking to law enforcement trying to get a sense

662
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: for his law enforcement onto me. You know, yeah, that

663
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 2: is suspicious as well as just Alfred's jealousy of Daniel

664
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: and Mary's relationship. That type of relationship can lead to violence.

665
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: So Alfred's got a couple of knocks against him. But

666
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 2: again it's like, okay, where was he that night? You know,

667
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: we got to lock his statement in, have to investigate him.

668
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: And you know, I think if he was not investigated

669
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 2: by law enforcement back in eighteen forty one, then they

670
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: dropped the ball, and that these tabloid reporters, they were

671
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: right and at least questioning whether or not Alfred could

672
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: be involved. But of course you don't want to see

673
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 2: that type of investigation being conducted in a tabloid.

674
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: So right, and that's what was happening. So, you know,

675
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: Alfred keeps going on and on about how virginal she was,

676
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: She was not promiscuous. I don't know why he keeps

677
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: bringing it up, except to think that maybe he really

678
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: did love her and he was very concerned about all

679
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: of these details coming out, and again, living in the

680
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: era of she must have done something. This is what

681
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: happens when you go out by yourself and you're a

682
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: young woman, and you're unaccompanied need and you're unmarried. I mean,

683
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: that must have been his motivation if he is not

684
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: her killer, but he is now. I don't understand him.

685
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: He is now suggesting that Mary had been carried off

686
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: to a house of ill repute and murdered there. He

687
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: keeps inserting himself in this investigation, so I think it's

688
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: confusing to the press. Why does he keep saying weird

689
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: stuff like that? And I don't understand his motive behind

690
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: that either, But what do you think knowing that any

691
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: sexual anything, whether it was consensual or not, would have

692
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: just ruined her reputation in death.

693
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: Also, it seems like everybody surrounding Mary is kind of

694
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: saying the same thing about Mary. She's, you know, in essence,

695
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: a good girl relative to the standards at the time,

696
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: and that was important for these people to say that.

697
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: With Alfred, you know, his continued insertion into the investigation

698
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 2: gives me a little bit of pause. You know this

699
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: she was, you know, taken to this house of ill

700
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: repute and that's where she was killed. Well, is there

701
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: some truth to that statement?

702
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: You know?

703
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: And where would that house be It's like, okay, Alfred,

704
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: you know what house of ill repute? And now there's

705
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: potential witnesses there, you know, is there a crime scene there?

706
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: You know. I don't know what to make of Alfred

707
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: with the information that we have. I think in some

708
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: ways relative to Daniel, I think he's elevated in my

709
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: mind as a suspect. But still I'm completely unconvinced of

710
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: Alfred's role in Mary's death, Daniel's role in Mary's death.

711
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: It could be somebody that we would never ever be

712
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: able to identify, you know. Maybe here you are, you know,

713
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: eighteen forties and could be somebody that there's no information

714
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 2: on in this day and age that happened to see

715
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: Mary walking alone and took advantage of a victim of opportunity.

716
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: Well, we'll go through a list of what people in

717
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: eighteen forty one predicted who could have done this, who

718
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: had the capacity and the motivation to do this. One was,

719
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: of course a violent gang. We're in criminal gang activity

720
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: time period in Manhattan. In early August of eighteen forty one,

721
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: the Penny Papers are running reports that she was seen

722
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: in the company of several young men ahead of her death.

723
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: This is not the last time that we will hear that.

724
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: And then it's conflicting reports. They're saying that this must

725
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: have been a gang and of course, remember I told

726
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: you the little details from the earlier part of the

727
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 1: investigation I think are twisted. I think they get that

728
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: maybe from doctor Cook's report, that at least three men

729
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: must have sexually assaulted her, and so they started investigating

730
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: gang leaders. Of course they look at the sailor who

731
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: she had been with. Everybody's got alibis, so they're really

732
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: grasping at straws. But it's not investigators. It's a penny

733
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: press that's doing this, not the investigators.

734
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's throwing darts. Yeah, is anybody hitting the bull's eye.

735
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced at all how Mary was killed, you know,

736
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: sexually motivated crime. Did she meet up with somebody and

737
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: he wanted sex and she said no, and then he

738
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: forced you know, sex on her and killed her. That's

739
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 2: an absolute possibility.

740
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: Well, one little bit of information that's sort of new

741
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: for us. About a month after Mary's murder, two young men,

742
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: two brothers, found some woman's clothing in a thicket in

743
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: Weehawk in New Jersey, which is pretty close to Hoboken,

744
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: which is where she was found. The articles of clothing

745
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: included a petticoat, a scarf, and a handkerchief. The handkerchief

746
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: had Mr embroidered on it, and the clothing was reportedly

747
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: mild dude down hard, and the grass had grown around it.

748
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: One of the newspapers estimated it had been there for

749
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: several weeks. The historical crime detective reported that the ground

750
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: was torn up and the shrubbery trampled if the spot

751
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: had been the scene of a terrific struggle. Leading out

752
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: of the thicket was a broad track, such as might

753
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: have been made by dragging the body through bushes. And

754
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: this is where they believe that Mary had been murdered.

755
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you about someone hearing a scream on

756
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: this night that she was murdered in a minute. But

757
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: would all of this stuff still be present? I mean,

758
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's at the end of the summer. Maybe

759
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: there was no rain over a month.

760
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,959
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a distinct possibility. Was Mam able

761
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: to identify this clothing as Mary's clothing?

762
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: I believe so, yes, Okay.

763
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: And it sounds like due to the disruption of the shrubbery.

764
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 2: This isn't just where an offender is disposing of the clothing,

765
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,479
Speaker 2: but it sounds like there's an interaction happening. So yeah,

766
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 2: this very well could be the homicide scene. Curious about

767
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 2: this broad drag mark because that also could create some

768
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 2: of these abrasions that doctor Cook observed on her back.

769
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 2: They lead to do they lead to a roadside does

770
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 2: not say.

771
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: Okay, a broad track that might have been dragging a

772
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: body through bushes. So investigators say this is where they

773
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: think Mary was murdered. And the boys go home and

774
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: tell their mother, who is a woman named Frederica Loss.

775
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: She becomes a center of attention pretty quickly. She owns

776
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: a tavern. She said that that night that Mary was

777
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: last seen, she saw someone who fit Mary's description in

778
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: her tavern, in the company of a young man with

779
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: a swarthy complexion. They had lemonade that doesn't seem on

780
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: brand for a young man with a swarthy complexion, that maybe,

781
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: and then she said she heard what sounded like a

782
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: scream coming from the direction of this thicket, which was

783
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: close to the tavern, and she just thought it was

784
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: an animal or a kid or something goofing off, or

785
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: one of her own kids. But after the clothing was

786
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: discovered the next month, she thought, oh, I wonder if

787
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: it was Mary Rogers crying up for help. But you know,

788
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: all of this is vague and we don't know.

789
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: I'm putting weight on the mom identifying Mary's clothing, the

790
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: initials MR on this clothing. Now, it's going to be

791
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 2: tough to truly assess. Was it actually Mary inside this

792
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: tavern with this unknown male? But the scenario kind of

793
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: I proposed after hearing what Daniel said Mary told him

794
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: she was doing that night about going to the aunt's house.

795
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: But Aunt said nope, there was no arrangement like that,

796
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 2: and that Mary may may have been using the aunt's

797
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 2: house as a way to be able to escape and

798
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 2: meet up with somebody. Well that matches this. Did Mary

799
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: meet up with a man at this tavern? And then

800
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: is this man her killer? Or did she start walking back?

801
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 2: That seems like a long ways to walk from Weehawken

802
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: back to the boarding house. I don't know what kind

803
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: of mass transit was in effect in the eighteen forties,

804
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 2: but or you know, on her way back, did she

805
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 2: run into somebody else? But wee Hawken is an interesting

806
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: location relative to where Mary's body is found, because Mary's

807
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: body is not too far away in the Hudson River

808
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: from where we Hawken is, you know, so that kind

809
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 2: of adds up in my mind.

810
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: Okay, well, one or two more little twists here. There

811
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: is a woman named Anne Trout Lohman who I had

812
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: read about. She was better known as Madame Restell. She

813
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: was a very famous abortionist. She went on trial for

814
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: essentially killing one of her patients during an abortion, which

815
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: was not uncommon at all. So Daniel Stashoward, the author,

816
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 1: says that her trial, this woman's trial, and the murder

817
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: of Mary Rogers are covered at the newspapers at the

818
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: same time, and they sort of start to conflate, and

819
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: the Penny Press wonders if Mary, she snuck away from Daniel,

820
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: used the aunt as an excuse to get an abortion,

821
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,919
Speaker 1: and that's how she died, and it was an accidental thing.

822
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: Maybe Alfred when he said Mary, I'll help you no

823
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: matter what you need, helped procure this abortion, which is

824
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: why he was so passionate about saying she was a

825
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: good person. She was a good person, and maybe this

826
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: wasn't a sexual assault but a you know, abortion gone wrong.

827
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: Termination of pregnancy gone wrong and then the body dumped.

828
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: But you can tell me because I think you're going

829
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: to bring up the underwear and the other stuff that

830
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: points to something very different.

831
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, you know, first, you know, start

832
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: with the autopsy. You know, when I'm starting to assess

833
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 2: any case, I always start with the autopsy. And in

834
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: this case, doctor Cook explicitly looks for evidence of pregnancy

835
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: as well as evidence of abortion. Imagine the barbarity of

836
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: how abortions were conducted back in the eighteen forties. I

837
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: believe a medical professional like doctor Cook would be able

838
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: to discern that there would have been the types of injuries,

839
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 2: if you will, and how thorough would Mary's would the

840
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: fetal aspects you know, inside of Mary's body without getting

841
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 2: too gruesome, you know, how thorough is this process back

842
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: in the eighteen forties. So I put a lot of

843
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: weight on doctor Cook's observations on that front. And then

844
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 2: everything about what happened to Mary, with the ligature being

845
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: placed from her own clothing, a gig being shoved into

846
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: her mouth, her dress is torn, the evidence, you know,

847
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 2: even though they're trying to say, you know, the bruising

848
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: and the abrasions to Mary's genital areas and surrounding area

849
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: is related to the abortion. Well no, I mean this

850
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 2: very well could be from the sexual So everything about

851
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 2: this is this is a sexually motivated crime. This is

852
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 2: not a death due to an abortion. And now Mary's

853
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: body is being dumped in the river. I don't buy

854
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: that at all.

855
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: Well, let's just tie this silliness up, because this is

856
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: really what Mary Rogers is known for, is a botched abortion.

857
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: What happened to her? The big mystery. Nobody goes on

858
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: trial for it. Frederica, the woman who owns the tavern

859
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: who heard the scream, who saw Mary with a mystery

860
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: man a year later, is accidentally shot by one of

861
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: those sons with a shotgun. He was cleaning a shotgun

862
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: and he shoots her. She is dying, and she says reportedly,

863
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 1: and I say that very loosely. In the penny presses

864
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 1: close to death, she says she actually knows the man

865
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: that Mary was with at her tavern. He was a

866
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: young physician who was going to terminate her pregnancy. Now

867
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: this is Frederica saying this, and this are the newspapers

868
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: reporting this, and all of this should be taken obviously

869
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt. There's no evidence of any

870
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: of this. But now the press after Fredrika died is

871
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: saying it must have happened at her tavern and she

872
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: must have been the one that facilla this. And you know,

873
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: all of this is to say that the readers of

874
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: these newspapers in New York were so desperate to have

875
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: this story be done what happened, They wanted something and

876
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: that was one of the very last theories that sort

877
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: of landed, and that was that I agree with you,

878
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound right to me at all.

879
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: Well, you know, first this is people latching onto what

880
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,439
Speaker 2: is these essentially conspiracy theories. You know, this is where

881
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,359
Speaker 2: the high profile nature of Mary's death. You know, these

882
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 2: these penny tabloids, I'm sure they're they're putting out all

883
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 2: sorts of junk information that that has no basis in fact,

884
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 2: just go right back to the core of the case,

885
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: what happened to Mary. Nothing about the actual evidence in

886
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: the case supports this theory, the idea of a botched abortion.

887
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: Mary is a victim of a sexually motivated crime. It's

888
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: just who did it. Somebody who knew her, A stranger,

889
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 2: a secret lover, a businessman that she ran across, you know,

890
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: at the tobacco shop, and then became obsessed with her

891
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: and was following her around. Who knows, you know, it

892
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: could be any of that, but I don't buy anything

893
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 2: about a botched abortion. In this case.

894
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 1: There was, as I said earlier, no trial, no indictments,

895
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: no really formal suspects whatsoever. And then Edgar Allen Poe

896
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: gets involved. He used to go buy I mean, I know,

897
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 1: good old Edgar Allan Poe, he used to go buy

898
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: that tobacco shop. He looked like had been a little

899
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: enamored with Mary himself. He eventually writes a story called

900
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: The Mystery of Marie Roja, and it is essentially Mary's story,

901
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: but puts her in Paris. He incorporates a lot of

902
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: facts of the case. But then, of course, because he's

903
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: a fiction author, as I would too, takes a lot

904
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: of liberties. And because of that, you know, you're conflating

905
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: these this fictional account with the real account, And people

906
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: don't do the correct research when they're reading penny papers

907
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: that are inaccurate. And so now Mary's story, really, the

908
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,439
Speaker 1: real story, has been lost in history, and it's been

909
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: completely morphed into something else. And that's why we're telling

910
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: it here to try to get the real information in.

911
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 2: Well, I trust you are giving me the real information.

912
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: Well, it's such a sad story because there's no justice

913
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: for her. It's a big mystery. She is zero control

914
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: over how her life was framed. It's in the newspapers.

915
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like before this even happened, she was popping

916
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: up in the newspapers. This is a foreshadowing when she

917
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: disappeared for those few days and said I can do

918
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: what I want, don't follow me around, and the press

919
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: reported and speculated that was a foreshadowing for what was

920
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,280
Speaker 1: going to happen. And now, almost two hundred years later,

921
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: you've got still misinformation out there. So there you go.

922
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: Paul Hols, don't say I never tried to illuminate things

923
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: for you from the eighteen hundreds, but these stories deserve

924
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: to be framed correctly.

925
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: I think, Well, for sure, this is a fascinating case.

926
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: It's unfortunate that it's just going to remain a mystery,

927
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 2: you know, unless unless the authorities can find some evidence

928
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: from the eighteen forties, which is unlikely.

929
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: I'll get right on that, Paul well, a really good

930
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: two parter and such a good time period to be

931
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: in in a really sad case, and I learned a lot.

932
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: I will say, my big takeaway here is there were

933
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: corners in the eighteen hundreds who you thought knew their stuff,

934
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: and doctor Cook was one of them. And I'm really

935
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: glad to introduce you to a corner who actually knew

936
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,919
Speaker 1: what he was doing and were saying words that made

937
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: sense to you.

938
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: At least up to a point. He knew what he

939
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 2: was doing, except.

940
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: When he said she was moral and tried to go

941
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: above his pay grade, and then they really ridiculed him

942
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: for it.

943
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

944
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, well.

945
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 2: And this is where you know it is important just

946
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 2: to underscore whether he had medical training or not, he

947
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: had experience, and through experience you get a level of

948
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: expertise for sure. So even if he didn't have the

949
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 2: medical degree or the doctor in front of his name,

950
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 2: the fact that he has seen many bodies coming out

951
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: of the waterways here, you know, that's that's important. And

952
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: that's where you know, I put a lot of weight

953
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 2: on his observations. It's obvious where he overstates, but his

954
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: observations to me are the core of understanding what happened

955
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 2: to Mary. I have a good sense of what happened

956
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,919
Speaker 2: to Mary. I just don't know who did it.

957
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: To her, and we'll never know, most likely, but boy,

958
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: the possibilities were endless. Next week I will try to

959
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: bring you a corner or a medical examiner who knows

960
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: what they're doing. But I'm going to tell you the

961
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: odds are against us, Paul against us. But thank goodness,

962
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: we have one in this one. So we'll see what

963
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: happens next week.

964
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: Okay, sounds good. I'll try not to be too judgmental.

965
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you. Okay, you'll see you next week.

966
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 2: Sounds good. Fine.

967
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

968
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

969
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

970
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

971
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

972
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

973
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

974
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

975
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

976
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: Barry Bones.

977
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

978
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

979
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,280
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now

980
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's

981
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,959
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now