1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is the Business 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: of Sports. 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: Sports are the greatest unscripted show owner. 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 3: The next generation of players who really grew up with 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 3: tech and. 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 4: Believe in tech. 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 5: Your face is your ticket, your face is your wallet, 8 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 5: your face is your access to a club. 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 6: These are such iconic and important buildings for businesses. 10 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 4: For fans, COVID was one of the best things that 11 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 4: ever happened to go. 12 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: The NFL is a bulletproof business. 13 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 5: Racing is unique because there is absolutely no reason why 14 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 5: we can't compete with the guys. 15 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: Come on, it's pro pickleball? Real, Are people really going 16 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: to tune into this? 17 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 3: If you're playing moneyball with a huge bag of money, 18 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 3: you're going to be really, really good. 19 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. 20 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 6: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports, where we explore 21 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 6: the big money issues in the world of sports. I'm 22 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 6: Vanessa Prodromo. Michael Barr and Damian Sasauer are off this week, 23 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 6: but joining me a special guest and friend of the show, 24 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 6: Bloomberg US Business reporter Randa Williams Rdel. Thanks so much 25 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 6: for jumping in this week. 26 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me it's always a pleasure. 27 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 6: Coming up. We'll talk college sports, but from a bit 28 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 6: of a different angle than we have lately. We'll talk 29 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 6: to doctor James Boucher's chief medical officer at the Big 30 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 6: Ten and president and CEO of the US Council for Athletes. 31 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: Health, and I'm really looking forward to asking him if 32 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: he thinks private equity, specifically who's trying to get into 33 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: college sports should invest in the medical departments and maybe 34 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: not so much on the sponsorship side. 35 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 6: All that and more is on the way, But we 36 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 6: start with a new project in Oklahoma City involving NBA 37 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 6: star Russell Westbrook. 38 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: Westbrook is teaming up with an investment firm tied to 39 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: Nick Gross, who's Bill Gross's son, to build a new 40 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: entertainment district anchored by a new soccer stadium in Oklahoma City. 41 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 6: Bloomberg News municipal finance reporter Max Adler did some reporting 42 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 6: on this and joins us now to discuss Max. Welcome 43 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 6: to the Bloomberg Business of Sports. 44 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 5: Oh, of course, thank you guys for having me. 45 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 6: So we're here talking about Russell Westbrook and an Oklahoma 46 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 6: City project that's now being He's now being joined by 47 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 6: by a big money. Please please give us some info 48 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 6: on that. 49 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, So, Russell Westbrook is going to invest in this 50 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 5: soccer stadium that's also going to be surrounded by a 51 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 5: mixed use entertainment and retail district. And the project is 52 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 5: being backed by Nick Gross, who is the son of 53 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 5: Bill Gross, and it's being led by Echo Investment Partners, 54 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 5: which is led by a fellow named Christian Kennedy, and 55 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 5: they have the backing of the city. They seem to 56 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 5: have a good amount of private investment as well. The 57 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 5: city's going to be giving them about one hundred and 58 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 5: twenty million dollars to finance this project. And they're joining 59 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 5: a wave of other mixed use soccer stadium developments that 60 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 5: are happening all across the country right now. This is 61 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 5: like one of the hot areas of municipal finance right now. 62 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 2: Hows is going to revitalize Oklahoma City? And before you 63 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: your answer, I'll say that I spent a day and 64 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: a half, maybe two days in Oklahoma City earlier this 65 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: year for the NBA Finals, and that town is empty, 66 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: Like you get outside of the city itself and it 67 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: just feels very bare. Where is this going to go? 68 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: And how do you think is going to impact Oklahoma 69 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: City as a city. 70 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 5: So academics that have studied these types of stadium developments 71 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 5: frequently come to the conclusion that the benefits don't necessarily 72 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 5: outweigh the public cost of all of this. There have 73 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 5: even been some studies that show that like a big 74 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 5: box retail store like a Target or a Walmart, would 75 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 5: end up producing more revenue for the city and even 76 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 5: more full time jobs. 77 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 4: If you think about. 78 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 5: These stadium developments, they're usually used about like thirty to 79 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 5: fifty times a year. If you have a soccer stadium, 80 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 5: they're going to have about twenty home games a year, 81 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 5: and then it depends on what you could fill the 82 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 5: venue with in those off days. So I don't know 83 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 5: if this is necessarily going to revitalize Oklahoma City. But 84 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 5: Oklahoma City, it's impossible to deny the Thunder's impact on 85 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 5: that city. Since two thousand and eight, when the Thunder 86 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 5: arrived after the Hornets did a brief stint to Oklahoma 87 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 5: City and the Sonics then relocated to Oklahoma City, their 88 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 5: GDP has risen like eighty four percent. Their population has 89 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 5: also grown a lot. And as you know that, I 90 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 5: mean the Thunder won the championship last year. I was 91 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 5: watching that Netflix Starting five documentary and watching the town 92 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 5: pumped up after the championship. You could tell that there's 93 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 5: thunder fever running through the veins of the people in 94 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 5: Oklahoma City right now. 95 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 4: We're not here to. 96 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 6: Make them mad. We're not here to make sorry. 97 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 4: You know. 98 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 6: Listen. 99 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 2: I went outside of the city and I sat in 100 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: that CBS for fifteen minutes. They thought I was loitering. 101 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: I was like, no, I'm just waiting for an uber. 102 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: There was nothing out there. 103 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 5: Well, they have a very pro development mayor right now, 104 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 5: and their population has risen since two thousand and eight. 105 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 5: They went from the thirty first biggest city to the 106 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 5: twentieth biggest city in the country. It does seem like 107 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,119 Speaker 5: a lot of cool cultural things are moving to Oklahoma City. 108 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 5: They're going to get some shine in the global spotlight 109 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 5: during the twenty twenty eight Olympics because they're going to 110 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 5: be hosting the softball and whitewater rafting events in Oklahoma City. 111 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 5: And that also is only made possible by public investments 112 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 5: in sports infrastructure. So a bunch of years back, they 113 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 5: expanded their softball facility. It's the home of the Women's 114 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 5: College Softball World Series, so they have that every year, 115 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 5: and they also built this whitewater rafting complex. So these 116 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 5: investments are definitely paying off for the city. And although 117 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 5: I tend to agree with the academic research that I 118 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 5: mentioned before showing that the benefits usually don't outweigh the 119 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 5: public costs, you could see it's hard to put a 120 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 5: number on the marketing benefits that they're going to get 121 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 5: from all this, from having their city showcase during the 122 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 5: LA Olympics. And if this stadium really does work out 123 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 5: well for the city and for its owners, it's possible 124 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 5: that the Oklahoma City Football Club ends up in the MLS. 125 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 5: So they're also the owners of the Oklahoma City Football 126 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 5: Club right now, they're called the Oklahoma City Energy and 127 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 5: they're owned by Echo Investment, which is the lead developer 128 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 5: on this. They currently play in the USL, and the 129 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 5: USL is about to completely change their structure. They're going 130 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 5: to become the first North American league to adopt relegation 131 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 5: the way that the European football leagues and associations do, 132 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 5: and they're hoping to create a top tier in the 133 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 5: USL that competes with the MLS. So that also is 134 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 5: a very interesting opportunity for the owners in Oklahoma City 135 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 5: right now. 136 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: One of the ways in which did these sports own 137 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: and investors say that a stadium can help is it 138 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: can bring tour acts. It can bring different events like festivals, 139 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: and if Beyonce or Taylor Swift or Kendrick Lamar and Sizza, 140 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 2: or in Vanessa's case, the Jonas Brothers are in town, 141 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: then a stadium like this can attract a you know, 142 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: an a lister to that town. Do you see this 143 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: working out? Because I in reading your story that there's 144 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: only twenty thousand seats, that's roughly a little bit more 145 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: than what is right down the street at the pay 146 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: Comm Center. How do you see this impacting touring for 147 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: artists and them being able to book people when there 148 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: isn't a soccer or football game going on at the stadium. 149 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 5: Well, first of all, first of all, if the Jonas 150 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 5: Brothers do tour in Oklahoma City, Vanessa, we are. 151 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 6: Going, Max, We're there. I love it. 152 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 5: The stadium's only going to have eleven thousand seats for 153 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 5: soccer to start off. 154 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: But they do. 155 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 5: They're building it with the possibility of expanding it to 156 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 5: like about twenty thousand, which would make them competitive with 157 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 5: the other MLS stadiums, but they would be able to 158 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 5: host more people when you consider like how many people 159 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 5: could fit on the field, and you're right, like they'll 160 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 5: be competing with Paycom. But Nick Gross is actually very 161 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 5: involved in the music industry. He's been playing in Southern 162 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 5: California bands for a long time. He manages a lot 163 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 5: of bands, so he hopefully will be able to leverage 164 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 5: his connections in the music industry to bring some acts 165 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 5: to Oklahoma City. They're also talking about bringing festivals to 166 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 5: Oklahoma City, and right now in the Southwest, there aren't 167 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 5: that many festivals, Like there's Austin city limits, they're south 168 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 5: by Southwest, but there aren't that many things happening in 169 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 5: that part of the country a little further west of Texas. 170 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: So I do think that there's a. 171 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 5: Market for them. I do think they'll be able to 172 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 5: bring in some big musical acts, and like I said, 173 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 5: Oklahoma City is a growing cultural hub, so I'm hopeful 174 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 5: that they will be able to leverage Nix connections in 175 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 5: the music industry and be able to monetize that as 176 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 5: it pertains to the musical acts that they bring in. 177 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 6: We're speaking with a municipal finance reporter for Bloomberg News, 178 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 6: Max Adler. Max. I think they do have a better 179 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 6: chance of getting the Jonas brothers and they would Beyonce 180 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 6: into a ten thousand seat arena. But as we're talking 181 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 6: about that, and obviously when we're looking at the soccer 182 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 6: bill built stadium specifically, and they won't be opening un 183 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 6: till twenty twenty eight, they're missing this big moment in 184 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 6: time for soccer for the US when we are hosting 185 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 6: the twenty twenty six World Cup next year. How has 186 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 6: that impacted them and really what this space could really be. 187 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 6: I mean, hopefully we'll have the twenty thirty one World 188 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 6: Women's World Cup, and I don't know if they're looking 189 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 6: at that as something that will continue the popularity of 190 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 6: soccer for them, specifically maybe getting a game or not 191 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 6: a game, but hosting net training facilities. 192 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 5: So they'll miss out on that. Yeah, you're right, they're 193 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 5: not going to be able to host training facilities and 194 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 5: stuff like that. They definitely won't have any games there. Obviously, 195 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 5: they don't have a facility in Oklahoma City that could 196 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 5: support a World Cup match, but they hopefully will be 197 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 5: able to capitalize on some of the momentum directly after 198 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 5: the World Cup, you know. And we saw that in 199 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 5: the US after the Women's World Cup in ninety four, 200 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 5: there was a lot of enthusiasm. But it does seem 201 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 5: like every five years or every decade, there's someone, some 202 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 5: pundit in the US that's saying, you know, soccer is 203 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 5: a really growing sport here. It's going to become as 204 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 5: popular here as it is in Europe that obviously hasn't 205 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 5: come to fruition yet. I don't think soccer is even 206 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 5: the fastest growing sport in the US at this point. 207 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 5: It might even be pidel But I think that they'll 208 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 5: be able to capitalize on some of the momentum post 209 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 5: World Cup. 210 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 6: Max, you mentioned that these mixed use districts are really 211 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 6: hot areas for municipal finance right now. What is it 212 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 6: about them that make you know, these decisions get made, 213 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 6: get actually through Because we've also seen a lot of 214 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,119 Speaker 6: different cities and towns around the US really denying taxpayer 215 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 6: money to build massive stadiums. 216 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 5: Oklahoma City, I'm so glad you mentioned that Oklahoma City 217 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 5: really stands out as an anomaly in respect to getting 218 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 5: its voters to approve capital projects that are municipally funded. 219 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 5: So I believe since nineteen ninety three, Oklahoma City is 220 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 5: fifteen to zero in voter approved capital projects, and several 221 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 5: of them are sports stadium projects. So while elsewhere in 222 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 5: the country we're seeing voters are having spending fatigue, particularly 223 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 5: when it comes to sports stadiums, because they're looking around, 224 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 5: they see billionaire owners and they're like, why can't they 225 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 5: afford to privately finance this themselves. Why shouldn't we be 226 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 5: directing our public funds towards services that all of us 227 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 5: will be able to use. But Oklahoma City is totally 228 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 5: bucking that trend. Also, I was talking to the mayor, 229 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 5: David Holt, and he said when he was thinking about 230 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 5: this project, like he looked around the country and he 231 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 5: recognized that Oklahoma City might be one of the only 232 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 5: top fifty cities by population that doesn't have a professional 233 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 5: soccer or football stadium in its city limits. So for 234 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 5: Oklahoma City, like, they miss out on a lot of 235 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 5: local events that end up going to Tulsa or going 236 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 5: to Norman, Oklahoma, or Stillwater because those are where like 237 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 5: the big universities. 238 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: Are all right thanks to Bloomberg News Municipal Finance reporter 239 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: Max Adler for joining us. 240 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 6: Up next, we turn to the sudden growth of prediction 241 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 6: markets in the world of sports for Randa Williams. I'm 242 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 6: Vanessa Perdomo. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of Sports 243 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 6: from Bloomberg Radio around the world. 244 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. 245 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 6: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports, where we explore 246 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 6: the big money issues in the world of sports. I'm 247 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 6: Vanessa Pridemo and I'm Randa Williams. Randall is jumping in 248 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 6: for Michael Barr and Damien Sassaur. They're off this week. 249 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 6: Prediction markets are booming in the world of sports and 250 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 6: drawing attention from everyone from fans, leagues, and now regulators. 251 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 6: Joining us to discuss is Bloomberg US Business reporter Ira Budway. Iira, 252 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 6: thanks so much for joining the Bloomberg Business of Sports. 253 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 3: Always a pleasure, all right. 254 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 6: So well today it's a fun one because it's me, 255 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 6: you and Randall, who we get to talk every day, 256 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 6: absolutely neighbors. So let's get into it. This is something 257 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 6: I've been really excited to talk to you about. You know, 258 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 6: you you just dropped your Calshi story recently, all about 259 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 6: prediction markets, and it's something that I ask you about, 260 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 6: I think every day in over the last couple of weeks. 261 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 6: So let's get into that. I was really interested. The 262 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 6: first part of the story is this anecdote about a 263 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 6: trader and how they you know, we're trying to make 264 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 6: this bad on the US Secretary of Energy. Tell us 265 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 6: about that and a little bit more about the the 266 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 6: story there. 267 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I spoke with the guy who traded professionally. His 268 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 3: name's Otti. He actually was a trader for the trading 269 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 3: arm of Kalshi for a few years as well, and 270 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 3: he got his start in politics trading a lot of 271 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: I think events markets traders, that's kind of where they began, 272 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: especially Trump Biden. So he started back in twenty twenty 273 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: and then he started doing it for a living. And 274 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: he told me this story about in twenty twenty one, 275 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: trying to figure out when Jennifer Granholm would be confirmed 276 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: as Secretary of Energy under Biden because there was a 277 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 3: market on that. And so he's doing his homework and 278 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 3: he called a lobbyist who told him that he had 279 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: sources with inside the Senate staff who said it would 280 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: be a certain day, and so he took that information 281 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: about on it made thousands of dollars, and he was 282 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: very proud of this, and he bragged about it on 283 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 3: the message boards for these various early versions of events. 284 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 3: And he told me the story, you know, not because 285 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: he wanted me to know that he won a few 286 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: thousand dollars on this, but because it's it's the kind 287 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: of thing that as events contracts, as bridiction markets get 288 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 3: into sports, could be a real problem, right, because this 289 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: is the sort of thing that sports leagues the type 290 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 3: of behavior that they want to have happening. And this 291 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: is almost exactly the kind of story that you see, 292 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: for instance, in the federal case against those various NBA players, 293 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 3: form of coaches and all their associates, right that were 294 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: unvailable in October, same thing. Somebody knew somebody who told 295 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: a friend who had information about who was or wasn't 296 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: going to be starting, and they used that to bet. 297 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: In the one case, nobody cared that, in fact, they 298 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: would see this as kind of how it's supposed to work. 299 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 3: In the other case, guy could go to jail for 300 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: twenty years. And I think they're going to have to 301 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: solve that tension as they figure out how to you know, 302 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 3: whether and how events contracts can function in the world 303 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 3: sports betting. 304 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: So let's I want to ask you a little bit 305 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: about how the leagues feel about this. You know, we've 306 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: seen sports gambling partnerships across the NFL, NBA, MLB, but 307 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: I haven't seen anything with CALSH just yet except for 308 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: one league in particular. Tell me about how the leagues 309 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: are approaching this. 310 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this really all started last year around 311 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 3: this time, and so at first everyone was trying to 312 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: just figure out what's going on. The CFTC for the 313 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: first time was allowing events, you know, prediction markets to 314 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: offer contracts tied to sports, and so they said we're 315 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: going to have this roundtable about it, and the leagues 316 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: were among those who submitted these letters saying here are 317 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 3: our concerns. So Major League Baseball, the NBA put in 318 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 3: letters and they said, look, when we do sports, when 319 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: we have sports betting through state licensed sports betting operators, 320 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 3: they do certain things for us that we think are important. Right, 321 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: they have consumer protections around problem gambling and addiction, but 322 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: also they help us monitor markets for potential manipulation. Insider 323 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 3: trading and other infractions that we care about the go 324 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 3: to the integrity of our games. We want to make 325 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 3: sure that's in place when we do if we're going 326 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: to do prediction markets. And that roundtable got canceled, never happened, 327 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 3: and this thing kind of rolled along and got bigger 328 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 3: and bigger and bigger. And so since then, the one league, 329 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 3: well the UFC, I should say, did a partnership with 330 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: poly Market, But the one of the big major leagues 331 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 3: in the US that's gone into any kind of relationship 332 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: officially with them is the NHL, which did a deal 333 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 3: with both Calshe and poly Market where they will share 334 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: their official data and the prediction markets can use their 335 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 3: names and their intellectual property, their marks and logos. The 336 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: other leagues have all still sort of kept an arm's 337 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: length relationship. The NHL. Sorry, the NFL just recently testified 338 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: before the US House that there's these guardrails in place, 339 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 3: basically saying what the and Major League Baseball had already 340 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 3: said in their letters, that there are guardrails in place 341 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 3: with state regulated sports betting that they don't see with 342 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: these prediction markets, and that that's for them a potential problem. 343 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 6: And that's what states are also saying right now. Now, 344 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 6: states are coming after Calshie and saying that they're they're 345 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 6: violating the fact that these states, now in New Jersey 346 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 6: and I and Nevada have contracts with sports books and 347 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 6: they had to you know, get those specifically regulated. And 348 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 6: now and now these this prediction markets are coming into 349 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 6: place and kind of violating that. They're essentially offshore gambling 350 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 6: or whatever. 351 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well they're unlicensed gambling sites in the eyes of 352 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: about thirty attorney generals who filed an amicus brief in 353 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 3: several states of gaming regulators and states have said, look 354 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 3: to call she get other prediction markets. You have to 355 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 3: stop offering these contracts in our state. And so this 356 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 3: this is being contested in federal court right now. And 357 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: that is the question, right, are these a new kind 358 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: of thing that the Commodity Future Strading Commission oversees and 359 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 3: therefore that supersedes any kind of state regulatory authority, or 360 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 3: are these in fact just sports betting under a different name, 361 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 3: and they're escaping the authority of these state regulators who 362 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 3: are built to do all these things that the leagues 363 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: are worried about. Right the state, right gaming regulators typically 364 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: have relationships with the leagues where they're in tune with 365 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 3: what the leagues feel like they need in terms of 366 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 3: what types of betting markets are allowed, right, Like, can 367 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 3: you bet on injuries? 368 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 4: Right? 369 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: The NFL doesn't like that. Can you bet on referee calls? 370 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 3: The NFL doesn't like that. Can you bet on kicks? 371 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 4: Right? 372 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: In field goals? Because that's the thing that a single 373 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 3: person controls and is therefore a little more susceptible to 374 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 3: manipulation and corruption. Right, These are things the NFL has 375 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 3: long asked state gaming regulators to prohibit. 376 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 4: Right. 377 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 3: And there's all kinds of examples of this kind of 378 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 3: thing where the gaming regulators are working with leagues and 379 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 3: sports books to create a system that they feel like 380 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 3: works for everybody, and they represent US citizens or citizens 381 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: of those states and taxpayers. Right, So there isn't an 382 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 3: equivalent kind of framework for the prediction markets. The prediction 383 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 3: markets will argue, Look, we're doing that stuff. We're building 384 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: the monitoring programs, we're partnering with the same monitors that 385 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: the sports books do. We have a whole set of 386 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 3: rules that we have to follow. They just come from 387 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: the federal government. And the argument is really like are 388 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 3: those rules of the right rules? Are they sufficient? You know, 389 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 3: because I think there's a lot about how the CFTC 390 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 3: regulates futures markets that doesn't really feel like a fit 391 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 3: or enough for sports betting, and so this is kind 392 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: of the question like do we do we let this 393 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: go forward and let the prediction markets kind of build 394 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 3: their own rules system that we think is good enough. 395 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: Do we say no, you can't do this. You know 396 00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 3: it's it's and I think that's why the leagues are 397 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 3: being cautious right now because this is still kind of 398 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: unsettled question. 399 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: We're here with Ara bu, a US sports business reporter 400 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 2: for Bloomberg News. Ara, you mentioned all of this, all 401 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: of these things about guardrails, But tell me what the 402 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: NHL did that's different than what the NFL, NBA, and 403 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: MLB are saying. 404 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, the NHL is saying, look, this is here, and 405 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 3: so we think it's better to be business partners, right, 406 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 3: so that they have our official data so that we 407 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 3: can call them up basically if there's a problem, so 408 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: we can find out what they're doing to put guardrails 409 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 3: in place, right and have that conversation with them. Is 410 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 3: the essence of what the NHL's approach to this is. 411 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 3: You know, I think also frankly, these companies are not 412 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 3: their pain right and so there's a revenue stream for 413 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 3: the NHL as well to consider. But they have been 414 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 3: the first among the big team sport leagues in the 415 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: US to go ahead and take that step. And the 416 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: argument is, look, if these events, if these bricks markets 417 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 3: are going to exist, which they appear to be, then 418 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 3: we want to be able to like be a phone 419 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 3: call away from them, and we want to be able 420 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 3: to cooperate with them and putting the guardrails in place 421 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: that we want, right, And the the count argument is like, 422 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: isn't that what state regulators need to be doing. 423 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 2: So one of the things I'm gonna call She's website 424 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 2: right now, and it's offerings are absolutely absurd outside of sports. 425 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: It offers Oscar nominations for Best Picture, Oscar for Best Picture, 426 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 2: all of these things that feel like they are very 427 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: easily maniputable because of the fact that if you are 428 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 2: a voter for the Oscars, why not just put ten 429 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 2: thousand dollars on this and then you know, you talk 430 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: to other voters and put all this money into Obviously 431 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 2: that would be a scandal. But it does feel like 432 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: going back to sports, that there are no guardrails around this, 433 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: and that you know if you are We've seen a 434 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: very very distinct and crazy plan with Chauncey Billups allegedly 435 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 2: you know, doing these these giving out information for injuries. 436 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: I wonder is that the reason why the NFL is saying, 437 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: you know, we don't want this, because you know, if 438 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: you were if you're manipulating an NFL game and catches 439 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: the quarterback has to throw them the ball, that's not 440 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 2: as bad as someone actually pulling themselves out of a 441 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: game in the NBA. In the NFL, I think because 442 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: the game size and the amount of games is smaller, 443 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: players are less likely to do that, I would say. 444 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: But with Call She, if you're betting wins and losses 445 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 2: and injury reports and all these things that they are 446 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 2: potentially offering, it feels very very dangerous for everyone in 447 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: the sports business. 448 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: No, yeah, I mean I think that's the question, and 449 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: Call She's you know, they if you look under their terms, 450 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 3: there'll be a list of people for any market who 451 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,719 Speaker 3: are not allowed to participate, and that would include insiders 452 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: or people who could influence that market potentially, So a 453 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 3: lot of this stuff is at least notionally prohibited, and 454 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: they seem to be building now the infrastructure to kind 455 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 3: of monitor it. And we have not seen, to my knowledge, 456 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 3: a big scandal around a sports market in a prediction 457 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 3: market space, but I think that's partly because it's these 458 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: are still so new, and so, yeah, that is what 459 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 3: the NFL is worried about, right, is this type of 460 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 3: stuff that we've seen go on in the early days 461 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 3: at least of prediction markets, where people who have influence 462 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 3: over a market are trading in it, or people who 463 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 3: know things that aren't public information are trading in it. 464 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 3: And there was I think a logic in those markets 465 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: that this is what you want to happen, because the 466 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 3: whole idea is to kind of figure out the probability 467 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 3: of future events. That is what prediction markets were. 468 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 4: Built to do. 469 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 3: And so if you have people who really know what's 470 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: going to happen and they're using these markets to place bets, 471 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 3: then that's telling everyone through that price signal, the probability 472 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: of that event, right, And that's something that a league 473 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 3: cannot tolerate, right, because the whole idea, obviously with competition 474 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 3: is no one knows until they go out on the 475 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: field and do their best, and so you know, they 476 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 3: have to maintain that or event it erodes all of 477 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 3: our trusts in these games that we watch. So those 478 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 3: two things are just gonna they're in kind of on 479 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 3: a collision course now and we're watching it get sorted out, 480 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 3: you know, with very little guidance, frankly from the federal government. 481 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: At this point. 482 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 6: It's almost it seems like almost early days of nil 483 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 6: when everyone was like, it's the Wila West and we're 484 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 6: trying to figure that out. This is kind of what 485 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 6: that sounds to me right now. It's the Wahlah West 486 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 6: and no one knows how it's going to shake out. 487 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 6: So I imagine we're going to come back to you 488 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 6: about this quite a lot. Ira Our thanks to Bloomberg 489 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 6: US Business reporter Ira Boobayte for joining us. Up next, 490 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 6: we talk with chief medical officer at the Big Ten 491 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 6: Conference about the challenges of keeping athletes healthy. For Randa Williams. 492 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 6: I'm Vanessa Perdomo. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of 493 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 6: Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world. 494 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. 495 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 6: Thanks for joining the Bloomberg Business of Sports, where we 496 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 6: explore the big money issues in the world of sports. 497 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 6: I'm Vanessa Prodomo, Michael Barr and Damian Sassauer are off 498 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 6: this week, but joining me a special guest and friend, 499 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 6: Bloomberg US Business supporter Randall Williams. 500 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. We spend a lot of 501 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 2: time talking about nil money in college athletics and about 502 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 2: the growth of sports betting, but we don't often talk 503 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 2: about the toll all of these things could have on 504 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: individual players in their bodies as players are playing for 505 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: big money at younger and younger ages. 506 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 6: Joining us to discuss the cross section of some of 507 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 6: the big money deals in college and the challenge of 508 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 6: keeping athletes healthy for the long haul is doctor James Borchers. 509 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 6: He's chief medical officer at the Big Ten Conference and 510 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 6: President and CEO of the US Council for Athletes Health. 511 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 6: Doctor James Boucher's welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports. 512 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. 513 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 6: So really excited to talk to you today, all things 514 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 6: about college athletics and everything you're doing there on the 515 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 6: medical side and really seeing where it's evolved from your 516 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 6: seat on the medical side. But first tell us about 517 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 6: the US Council for Athletes Health and your role as 518 00:26:59,240 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 6: president and CEO. 519 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 7: Well, the US Council for Athletes Health is an organization 520 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 7: that was founded to really prioritize athlete health, safety, and 521 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 7: well being for sport organizations, for institutions, and associations. We 522 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 7: do that through strategic planning, education, consultation, compliance work. We 523 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 7: work with over three hundred NCUBLEA institutions and over twenty 524 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 7: conferences in the NCAA, for example, and work with groups 525 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 7: like the USOPC, the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee, and 526 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 7: national governing bodies to really craft medical standards for athletes 527 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 7: with the goal being to have the best environments for 528 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 7: athletes to be able to perform while protecting their health, safety, 529 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 7: and well being. 530 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 2: And doctor Borchers and Randa Williams, and my question for 531 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: you is specifically on the sport of football. It seems 532 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: like in college football this season is getting progressively longer. 533 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 2: They're adding games to the College Football Playoff, the season 534 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: is now starting the second week of August instead of 535 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: the first or second week of September. How have you 536 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: advise schools and athletes to manage health in such a 537 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 2: dangerous context. Work. 538 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I think you're right. 539 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 7: I think we were looking at the expansion of seasons 540 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 7: and how long the season is. You know, we can 541 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 7: take some lessons from the professional colleagues in the NFL, 542 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 7: and I think you have to look at the entire 543 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 7: calendar and look at what you're doing outside the season 544 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 7: as well when it comes to you know, conditioning periods, 545 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 7: spring practice. So I think you have to look at 546 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 7: the calendar in total, and I've advised you know, the 547 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 7: CFP and other groups to look at the entire calendar. 548 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 7: But I think the other thing we have to look 549 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 7: at is what's happening during this season. I've been a 550 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 7: big advocate for trying to work, you know, at least 551 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 7: two bye weeks into the season to give some time 552 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 7: for recovery. And then also looking at the practice cadence 553 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 7: during the season and what you're doing doing during those practices, 554 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 7: how much contact is occurring, and how we can make 555 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 7: certain that you know, athletes have time to recover the 556 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 7: number of games. You know, it's interesting if you look 557 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 7: at most high school football seasons, in order to win 558 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 7: a state championship, you usually have to play about fifteen 559 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 7: or sixteen games in most states, so athletes coming into 560 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 7: college are used to playing games, albeit maybe not at 561 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 7: the level of Division I college football. But I think 562 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 7: it's what goes on around the game that we have 563 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 7: to really pay the most attention to. 564 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 6: Can you elaborate a little bit on that, Like, what 565 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 6: do you mean by what goes around the game? 566 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 7: Well, I think what I'm talking about is the practice 567 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 7: that goes around the game. 568 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 4: How long are we practicing? 569 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 7: Are there how many contact practices are occurring during the week? 570 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 4: Is there a day off during the week. 571 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 7: Do we have bye weeks built into the season so 572 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 7: that athletes have appropriate time to recover you know, during 573 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 7: the season. If you think about periodization and how recovery happens, 574 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 7: those time periods can be really beneficial. And then I 575 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 7: think also what goes on in the preseason, what happens 576 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 7: in those practices, what's going on in the postseason, what's 577 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 7: happening for those athletes. Are we giving them the time 578 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 7: to be able to do things that are allowing them 579 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 7: to recover and we're making certain we're not, you know, 580 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 7: doing so much in the preseason that they're already worn out, 581 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 7: you know, when they come into the season. 582 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: I want to ask you a little bit about the 583 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: NBA a little bit, and I know you're focused on college, 584 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: but in the NBA playoffs, we saw a lot of 585 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: achilles injuries and torny cels, things like that, especially towards 586 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 2: the end of last year. I wonder if the accumulation 587 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 2: of all of these these games that high school and 588 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 2: college athletes and then you know, they eventually go pro 589 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: and play in these leagues like the NBA. I wonder 590 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: if the accumulation of so many games such long seasons, 591 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: how does that affect the body And is it a 592 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: trend or is it more individual based? If someone who 593 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: trains harder and gets less rest and maybe they're more 594 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: prone to injury, is there any data behind that or 595 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: how do you analyze that? 596 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, Randall, I think you bring up a great point. 597 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 7: I even take it further back to the youth sports 598 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 7: complex and what we see in youth sports and specialization 599 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 7: in sport today that's so much different than it was 600 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 7: twenty years ago. And the volume of athletics that occurs 601 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 7: in a single sport. I mean, if you look at 602 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 7: AAU basketball people playing, you know, sometimes four to eight 603 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 7: games in a weekend and then doing that all year long. 604 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,719 Speaker 7: I think your point is the accumulation of wear and 605 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 7: tear on the young body, and what we're seeing now, 606 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 7: do you know, show up at you know, twenty years old, 607 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 7: if you've played in high school and college and all 608 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 7: the accumulation that we didn't see twenty years ago leads 609 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 7: to a lot of these injuries you mentioned, calf injuries, 610 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 7: achilles injuries, soft tissue injuries. Certainly the NBA season, for example, 611 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 7: has something to do with that, and we've heard a 612 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 7: lot about you know, back to backs and the travel 613 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 7: and recovery and sleep, which you need to address. But 614 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 7: what we also have to address is what happens to 615 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 7: that individual for the you know, the ten to twelve 616 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 7: years prior to coming to the NBA, as you mentioned, 617 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 7: And I think you've got to go back further than 618 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 7: high school. I think we've got to look at what 619 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 7: happens even in youth sports and the professionalization of youth sports, 620 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 7: and that's why we're seeing athletes more broken today when 621 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 7: they get to college or to the professional ranks. So 622 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 7: you bring up a great point, and I'm one hundred 623 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 7: percent in agreement. You've got to look at that really 624 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 7: to affect some of the things that are happening. Some 625 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 7: of it's individualized, but we really have to look at 626 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 7: what young athletes are doing when we think about these 627 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 7: types of injuries. 628 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 6: I think it's so interesting. You know the point you 629 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 6: guys bring up there, and you know, I was a 630 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 6: college athlete. I remember how it was, especially like you 631 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 6: had said, doctor Porcher's in preseason, I mean, preseason's harder 632 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 6: than the regular season most of the time. Yeah, So 633 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 6: when you're looking at that and then you're having conversations, 634 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 6: you know from your seat now as chief medical officer 635 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 6: for the Big Ten, when you're having those conversations saying, oh, 636 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 6: maybe we should add end up you know, two bye weeks, 637 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 6: you know, for recovery. But then when you're talking to athletes, 638 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 6: when we're talking to athletes Randall and I and they're saying, yeah, 639 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 6: we know exactly how we're supposed to recover the body, 640 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 6: sleep in all those things you mentioned, but really don't 641 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 6: get that rest. So what are those conversations like from 642 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 6: your standpoint where you're trying to talk to athletic directors 643 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 6: CO is trying to get players more rest when they 644 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 6: really there really isn't time for that in this season? 645 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 7: Well, I think, quite honestly, the balance of finding that 646 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 7: recovery and my opinion, is the secret sauce to best performance. 647 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 7: And I think if you look at the highest functioning 648 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 7: teams in most sports, if you look at the highest 649 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 7: functioning organizations, they've discovered that, they understand that, and they 650 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 7: focus on it, and they understand you know how to 651 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 7: manage that and how to make certain that their athletes 652 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 7: are able to perform at their peak performance. And you 653 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 7: can only do that when you're as you know, physically well, 654 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 7: mentally well, and emotionally well. And if you wear somebody out, 655 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 7: if you continue to grind on them, you're going to 656 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 7: see that performance decrease. So this isn't only about an 657 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 7: athlete's health and safety and well being. It's about how 658 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 7: you get them to perform their best. 659 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 4: And I think you. 660 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 7: Look at the lengths of seasons, you look at preseason 661 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 7: and all of those things. I think if you're not 662 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 7: taking that into account today, you're getting athletes that are 663 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 7: not performing their peak performance, and then overall your team's 664 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 7: not going to perform well. So I try to, you know, 665 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 7: I try to put all of this into perspective around performance, 666 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 7: which everybody seems to understand. And when you start to 667 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 7: talk about it that way, people understand, Yeah, it's not 668 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 7: so much about you know, their health and safety, which 669 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 7: everybody likes to use as buzzwords, but it's really about performance. 670 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 7: And you know, as a former athlete, when you're worn out, 671 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 7: when you're beat up, you just don't perform your best. 672 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 7: And so you got to find a balance in there 673 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 7: on how to do that. And if you don't study 674 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 7: it and understand it, you're just going to have people 675 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 7: that just don't perform at their peak. 676 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 2: Now, your organization has worked with you know, you said 677 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 2: over three hundred colleges and universities. That's correct, right, that's correct. 678 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 2: And so you also worked at Ohio State, and I wonder, 679 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 2: you know, from small college to large college. I'm almost 680 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: positive that Ohio State has more people on its medical 681 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 2: staff than the Cincinnati Bengals does, just because I don't 682 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: know about that, but I would bet on it. I 683 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 2: would bet on it. But with that in mind, I 684 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 2: wonder what the biggest difference is that you've seen from 685 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 2: the larger schools to the smaller schools. Because at Ohio State, 686 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: you know, you have multimillion dollars, and I lived in Columbus, 687 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 2: so I know what it's like to walk on campus 688 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 2: and feel like that whole city is owned by Ohio State, 689 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: and so I can imagine what that medical department is like. 690 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: But if you go down to a school like Wright State, 691 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 2: which is a lot smaller, I wonder what the difference 692 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: is in terms of the way in which athletes are 693 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: taken care of. 694 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there's resource discrepancy you're talking about that 695 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 7: you can even get down into smaller institutions, right, they 696 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 7: just don't have the resources like you said that most 697 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 7: power for institutions have, or even Division one schools have 698 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 7: access to. So I think it's evaluating that and understanding 699 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 7: there's not a cookie cutter way to approach this. I mean, look, 700 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 7: there's Power four institutions that are in rural areas or 701 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 7: in areas that don't have the medical facilities that you mentioned, 702 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 7: like in Ohio State or a Michigan or Northwestern even 703 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 7: have you know right there in big cities. So you've 704 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 7: got to really think about how you're providing access and 705 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 7: how you're going to provide medical care. But I think 706 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 7: you also as an organization have to think about the 707 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 7: entire organization and the culture around health and safety and 708 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 7: how we're going to be more preventative than reactive. Right, 709 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 7: It's so much easier to prevent things from happening. It's 710 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 7: so much easier to keep people healthy and performing at 711 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 7: their peak than to try to recover them and be 712 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 7: reactive when something's happened. 713 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: So let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. 714 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 2: There are a couple different private equity deals, one into 715 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: Big twelve and another in Utah that happened, and you know, 716 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 2: we know, and we know a little bit about where 717 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 2: that money is going to go. But if you are advising, 718 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 2: let's use Ohio State for an example, because they've had 719 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 2: some conversations with this California pension fund that has been 720 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: put on pause right now. But if you are one 721 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: of these smaller schools who's going to get this money 722 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: from a pension fund, a private equity fund, how much 723 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,479 Speaker 2: do you think that you would advise them to spend 724 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: on the medical department Because at the end of the day, 725 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 2: you know, the athletes are the commerce in, you know, 726 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 2: filling up to stadiums and bringing in this bringing in 727 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 2: the revenue. No one's going to sign a sponsorship deal 728 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 2: for a losing team, or if they do, it's not 729 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 2: going to be as as highly sought out. What would 730 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 2: you advise them if someone's signing a private equity deal 731 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: or one of these pension fund deals to do with 732 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 2: some of that money in the medical department, Well. 733 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 7: First of all, I'd advise them to spend a lot 734 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 7: more than they are spending in most cases. You know, 735 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 7: we know that the percentage that's spent on medical care 736 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 7: and wellness care at a lot of places is very small, 737 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 7: and recognizing there's a lot of money and even more 738 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 7: money now going to players, I'm very direct. 739 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 4: When I say this. I think it is the you know, 740 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 4: it's the. 741 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 7: One area where you can make the biggest impact in 742 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 7: what happens with athletes. The investment there returns significantly from nutrition, 743 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 7: mental health, recovery, medical care, daily health and safety. That's 744 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 7: in value, as you mentioned, keeping your athletes on the 745 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 7: field and all the return that comes from that. So 746 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 7: my recommendation is look at it and spend a lot 747 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 7: more than what you think you need to be spending, 748 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 7: and really study it. 749 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 6: Our thanks to doctor James Boucher's for joining us he's 750 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 6: chief Medical officer at the Big Ten Conference and President 751 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 6: and CEO of the US Council for Athletes Health. And 752 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 6: that does it for this edition of The Bloomberg Business 753 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 6: of Sports. Tune in again next week for the latest 754 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 6: on the stories moving big money in the world of sports, 755 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 6: and subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an 756 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 6: episode on all your favorite podcast platforms. You're listening to 757 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 6: Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world.