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Speaker 1: So anyone wants to understand what happened what didn't happen

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Speaker 1: in the twenty four election. We all know the outcome,

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Speaker 1: but what happened in those one hundred and seven days,

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Speaker 1: what happened leading up to the infamous debate, what happened

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Speaker 1: leading up to the convention, post convention, up until election night.

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Speaker 1: My next guest, they understand it better than anyone. They've

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Speaker 1: written a book called Fight. This is Gavin Newsom, and

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Speaker 1: this is Amy Parnes and Jonathan Allen. Amy, Jonathan, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to be here.

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Speaker 1: You've written a hell of a book. And I don't

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Speaker 1: say that lightly. I went through it in a quick

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Speaker 1: hour and a half, almost two hours, and trust me,

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Speaker 1: I don't read very fast, but it reads at an

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Speaker 1: unbelievable pace. It's so well written, and of course it's

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Speaker 1: so familiar because I fell a little bit adjacent so

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Speaker 1: much of the subject matter. But it's eighteen chapters. It's

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Speaker 1: an impressive piece of work, two hundred and sixty three

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Speaker 1: or so pages, two critical sections sort of before and after,

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Speaker 1: and it begins your book Fight on June twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, set the scene for me.

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Speaker 2: So the way we set the scene in the book

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Speaker 2: is in Nancy Pelosi's condo, not her condo in San Francisco,

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Speaker 2: not her place at San Francisco, but in Washington, DC.

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Speaker 2: And she's watching this debate alone, sitting on her sofa,

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Speaker 2: looking at the television set. And she needed to be

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Speaker 2: alone because she had I don't want to say a premonition,

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Speaker 2: but she had kind of a gut feeling. Normally, if

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Speaker 2: you're a politician, as you know, there's a debate night party,

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Speaker 2: and you go out and you talk to donors and

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Speaker 2: activists and you have a good time and you celebrate,

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Speaker 2: and you hope your candidate wins, and you say they

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Speaker 2: win even if they didn't win. And Nancy Pelosi was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to watch this at home, and we take

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Speaker 2: readers into how she had urged Biden not to debate

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Speaker 2: Trump at all, and she had used a nice way

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Speaker 2: of saying it to him, which was, don't lower yourself

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Speaker 2: to Trump. But I think, you know, you get the

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Speaker 2: feeling from the book. It's pretty strongly implicit, if not

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Speaker 2: expressed exactly, that she thought this might be a problem.

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Speaker 2: And we take readers around among other Democrats that had

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Speaker 2: the same feeling sitting and watching at home, Jim clydmer

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Speaker 2: Jack and diet Pepsi, which.

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Speaker 1: Just a scene that Jack and diet Pepsi alone is

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Speaker 1: worth it.

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Speaker 2: And Al Sharpton and don or John Morgan down in California,

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Speaker 2: I mean in Florida, and so they're all watching this

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Speaker 2: and they all have the same reaction at the same time,

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Speaker 2: which is a complete disaster. And they're all the Democrats

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Speaker 2: are texting each other and they are calling each other,

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Speaker 2: and I mean, everybody who watched that debate had the

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Speaker 2: same reaction. And some of them had it in the

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Speaker 2: first ten seconds and some of them had it ten

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Speaker 2: minutes later. But I think it was immediately clear to

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in the Democratic Party that Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden just wasn't operable as a candidate anymore.

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Speaker 1: So, Amy, you know, you picked that why, I mean,

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Speaker 1: in some respects, that scene also picked the book. The

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Speaker 1: determination that you were going to write this book. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in some respects, I'm my understanding is you weren't even

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Speaker 1: thinking of writing a book necessarily on the subject matter,

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Speaker 1: and tell that debate it sort of marked a moment

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Speaker 1: of consciousness for the world, not just this country and

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Speaker 1: certainly the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean John and I were out of the

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Speaker 3: campaign book writing until that night. Our phones were blowing up,

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Speaker 3: and our publisher a couple of days later was like,

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Speaker 3: you guys have to do another book, and so here

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Speaker 3: we are, and it was. We knew that it was

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Speaker 3: going to be exciting based on what was happening that night,

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Speaker 3: but we had no idea the twists and the turns

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Speaker 3: of that campaign.

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Speaker 2: I think it depends on what your perspective is as

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Speaker 2: to whether it's you know, thrilling and exciting versus reliving

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Speaker 2: some torture. And at the same time, it's interesting, it's

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Speaker 2: fascinating behind this scenes of how the maneuvering goes on,

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Speaker 2: and like how Pelosi, for example, is trying to push

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Speaker 2: Biden out but trying to leave his few fingerprints on

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Speaker 2: it as possible, give him room to make his own decision.

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Speaker 2: You know, Obama's calling for an open convention. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: we'll get to some of this, but yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: that regardless of how you feel about the outcome of

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Speaker 2: the election, it is impossible to understand where the next

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Speaker 2: election is going. What works for parties, what doesn't work

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Speaker 2: for parties unless you understand what happens behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we worked so hard to get was

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Speaker 2: what were people actually thinking, what were their motivations, what

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Speaker 2: were the conversations that you couldn't see on television?

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Speaker 1: And so I think the critical point and amy this

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Speaker 1: is to me the most fascinating, particularly sitting where I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting on the other side often of some of these

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Speaker 1: discussions from agumbinatorial and an electoral perspective. But it's the

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Speaker 1: remarkable access you have to hundreds and hundreds of people

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Speaker 1: that are painting this picture, and how extraordinarily well sourced

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Speaker 1: you were toy even have these scenes, these vignettes that

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Speaker 1: have been pretty bulletproof. There's been few, if any critics

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Speaker 1: of that scene setting or anyone that suggested this book

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Speaker 1: hasn't been locked down in terms of its fact checking.

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Speaker 1: But this is what the fourth book, you guys wanted.

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Speaker 3: A book, our third campaign book. Between John and I,

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Speaker 3: I think we pretty much have DC lockdown, and people,

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Speaker 3: I think feel comfortable, which is a compliment to what

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Speaker 3: we've done. They feel comfortable talking to us and sharing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, our job as reporters has always been to

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Speaker 3: get as close to the truth as possible, and that

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Speaker 3: was sort of our aim here to bring, as John said,

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Speaker 3: everyone into the room and give you a glimpse of

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Speaker 3: what was happening. We all saw everything play out, we

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Speaker 3: didn't know the backroom conversations, and I think that's why

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Speaker 3: this book has People have been so receptive. They kind

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Speaker 3: of wanted to know what was going on behind the scenes,

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Speaker 3: and we all knew but didn't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to break a key rule here. We'll just

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Speaker 2: to ask a question. I don't know the answer. You

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Speaker 2: obviously have your own perspectives on this. You have your

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Speaker 2: own experiences with what was going on during that time

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Speaker 2: period between the debate and when Biden dropped out and

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Speaker 2: beyond that through the campaign. Did you read anything to

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Speaker 2: say to yourself that doesn't comports.

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Speaker 1: It was extraordinary how accurate it was in every way,

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Speaker 1: shape or form, And of course I know, but what

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Speaker 1: was for me, I think the most alarming part was

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Speaker 1: trying to go, who's the source on this, they talked

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Speaker 1: to on this, you know, and who's who's omitted, who's

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Speaker 1: sort of overplayed, and how everything sort of shapes out.

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Speaker 1: But you know, look that experience on the twenty seventh

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Speaker 1: that night the debate, I was in a very different

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Speaker 1: place than Nancy Pelosi and Cliburne and others. I was

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Speaker 1: there expecting to go out and do the spin to

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Speaker 1: talk about how successful that debate was. And I was

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Speaker 1: out there doing the pre debate spin on the networks,

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Speaker 1: and so everything about what did sort of painted a

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Speaker 1: picture that I didn't have because I wasn't privy to

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Speaker 1: all of those other scenes and who was missing who

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Speaker 1: wasn't in that moment. No, I mean I was one

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Speaker 1: of the first ten seconds for people. I remember standing up.

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Speaker 1: I looked around and everyone looked, and we all went

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Speaker 1: something off within seconds. And then we were just twenty

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes in and the text were just lighting up,

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Speaker 1: and you could see that with all of us that

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to be doing the spin, and the campaign

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Speaker 1: was out already caucusing in the corner in the debate

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Speaker 1: had just begun. So it was not a gross exaggeration

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Speaker 1: to say everything you painted in terms of that picture

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Speaker 1: was deeply accurate. And so it's fascinating again just having

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Speaker 1: your perspective and then the perspective of others sort of

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Speaker 1: plate this kaleidoscope, this sort of sort of aggregated picture

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Speaker 1: and reality, and of course that reality came to the fore,

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Speaker 1: not just that night, but the expression of so much

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Speaker 1: of what came out of this book was the internal debates.

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Speaker 1: Then you started to talk about not just that night

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Speaker 1: and Nancy Pelosi's relationship to that night, Clive Ourn's relationship

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Speaker 1: that night, but the relationship of the Biden campaign and

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Speaker 1: their defiance after that night. They were going to stick in,

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Speaker 1: They demanded loyalty, They tested that theory. Many of us

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Speaker 1: are on the cving end of that. Talk to us

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Speaker 1: about those next chapters and how things began to evolve

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Speaker 1: or devolve from your perspective in terms of the post

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Speaker 1: debate realities.

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Speaker 2: So I think that you make it the right point.

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Speaker 2: Right Biden is to the accept that he was in

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Speaker 2: a cocoon before, and I think he really was. There

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Speaker 2: were not many people outside the top White House staff

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Speaker 2: that saw him a lot, so for years we would

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Speaker 2: get little anecdotes of I was with the president. It

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Speaker 2: seemed a little off whatever, But if from a member

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Speaker 2: of Congress or something who seas him once every six

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Speaker 2: months as we were reporting the book, he didn't recognize.

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Speaker 2: Eric Swallwell been from California, who is on television literally

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Speaker 2: half the day every day and had to be cued

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Speaker 2: in the summer of twenty twenty three as to who

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Speaker 2: Swallowell was when he met him at the congressional picnic.

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Speaker 2: So you hear stories like that, but you know what

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Speaker 2: happens from that moment is the Biden team digs in,

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Speaker 2: totally digs in, and he digs in. And this is

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Speaker 2: somebody who has wanted to be president for his entire life, right,

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Speaker 2: he first started thinking about that, if not earlier, when

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Speaker 2: he first got elected to the Senate in nineteen seventy two. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, neither of us were born yet,

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Speaker 2: and I have gray hair and Amy doesn't have gray hair,

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Speaker 2: but she may soon, right, And so Biden wanted to

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Speaker 2: be president forever he got the job. He believes all

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Speaker 2: the people that doubted him over the years, including Barack

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Speaker 2: Obama and others, were wrong and that they're wrong again.

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Speaker 2: And so he's going to fight this out. And the

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Speaker 2: rest of the Democratic Party looks at him and says, like,

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Speaker 2: this guy can't win. He wasn't going to. He was

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Speaker 2: on track to lose before the debate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you paint that picture in terms of where

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Speaker 1: the polls were, things were trending prior to the.

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Speaker 2: Debate, and now it's unrecoverable. And then the question is,

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Speaker 2: how do you ease this guy who has a big ego,

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Speaker 2: who's stubborn, who has had, you know, some sort of

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Speaker 2: non linear decline, right, better days, worse days, better hours,

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Speaker 2: worse hours. How do you convince him that it's time

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Speaker 2: for him to get out, especially if you're Barack Obama

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Speaker 2: and the relationship there is totally tattered because Obama didn't

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Speaker 2: support him at sixteen, didn't really support him in twenty.

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Speaker 2: How do you do it if you're Nancy Plosti and

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Speaker 2: you have a good relationship with him, like.

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Speaker 1: Going back decades and decades, decades.

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Speaker 2: And decades they have. They come from the same place

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Speaker 2: basically in the you know, the mid Atlantic. They're both Catholic,

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Speaker 2: both big Kennedy fans, FDR Democrats, that they are close,

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Speaker 2: and she's always respected Biden forgetting his hands dirty in politics,

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Speaker 2: for like, you know, trying to get deals done. She

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Speaker 2: always looked at Obama and said, this guy wants to

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Speaker 2: float above and have other people do the work. And

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Speaker 2: she respected Biden. She's like, how do you get rid

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Speaker 2: of him, how do you how do you push him out?

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Speaker 2: But make it his idea, make it make him And

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Speaker 2: so you see, and I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: are angry at Pelosi. Democrats are angry at Pelosi voters

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Speaker 2: who loved Biden and thought she did so much to

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Speaker 2: like push him. And the truth was, I think she

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Speaker 2: was the only one that had the courage to get

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Speaker 2: out there and keep moving the ball forward with little

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Speaker 2: things she said on television, you know, But I mean

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Speaker 2: it wasn't like a full on bum rush, right, So

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Speaker 2: that all of this is super delicate, and Biden's just

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Speaker 2: not going to go anywhere. And then finally he gets

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Speaker 2: really bad COVID and the numbers are looking terrible, and

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Speaker 2: House and Senate members are telling him that they're going

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Speaker 2: to lose because of him, and you know, he finally

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Speaker 2: makes the decision that I think most other Democratic leaders

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Speaker 2: understood was going to have to be made three weeks earlier.

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Speaker 2: And the one thing that I think has been difficult

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Speaker 2: for the Democratic Party that hasn't been talked about a

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Speaker 2: lot is either Joe Biden was not competent to run

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Speaker 2: for president anymore, and therefore should have resigned the presidency too,

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Speaker 2: because I I'm not sure you can make the argument

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Speaker 2: that one is true with that the other or the

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Speaker 2: view is that it's not that he wasn't competent to

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Speaker 2: run or serve, but just that he was going to

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Speaker 2: lose and Democrats decided to switch horses because they were

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Speaker 2: going to lose midway through a campaign. And I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of voters, especially a lot of swing voters,

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Speaker 2: just were not able to reconcile all of that and

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Speaker 2: think to themselves, the Democrats are telling me the truth

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So she of trust And I mean, obviously that's

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Speaker 1: a big part I think of the through line in

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Speaker 1: the book. But the point of you're making about Nancy

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Speaker 1: Pelosi playing an outside role here is interesting, and just

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Speaker 1: reflecting on my own conversations with former Speaker Pelosi, is

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Speaker 1: how sensitive she was to the parents that she was

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Speaker 1: pushing him out, and how she went to great lengths

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Speaker 1: and in the book you chronicle that, But even in

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Speaker 1: the personal interactions with many of us, she would even

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Speaker 1: unsolicited say, just so you know, I'm not pushing She

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Speaker 1: still says it to this day. She's very sensitive about that.

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Speaker 1: But you, but you are the firm opinion that a

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Speaker 1: two Nancy, I think is one of the chapters in

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Speaker 1: the book that she she had a hand, a big

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Speaker 1: hand to play.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we take you inside the campaign in that

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Speaker 3: moment she goes on mourning Joe. She's a little kind

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Speaker 3: of dishoveled for Nancy Pelosi because she's she's never disheveled ever.

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Speaker 2: Nancy Pelosi is like one hair out. Yeah, she's compared.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that moment is such a major moment. She

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Speaker 3: goes on mourning Joe. He you know, she says he

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Speaker 3: has a decision to make. He's already made his decision.

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Speaker 3: You know, two days earlier, he was already in a

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Speaker 3: letter was saying I'm running. He's telling people I'm running,

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Speaker 3: don't count me out. And she's saying, no, you know,

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Speaker 3: he has a decision to make. And so we take

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Speaker 3: you inside the campaign. And in that moment, they're all

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Speaker 3: likef you, what are you doing? We're finally like back

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Speaker 3: on track and you're you know, we're regressing now. And

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Speaker 3: so it's really really kind of a dramatic moment of

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Speaker 3: like they're finally on track, they feel like they're finally

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Speaker 3: moving on and she pulls him right back.

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Speaker 1: I remember that, and I remember being out on the

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Speaker 1: road for Biden, and I remember being on there with

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Speaker 1: General Mallley Dylan. We'll talk about her role in all

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Speaker 1: of this, and going on with the campaign team after

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Speaker 1: that debate doing a little zoom saying, let's all buck

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Speaker 1: up here in Bucks County. I'm bucking up. We're going

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Speaker 1: to make the case coming from the debate that they

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Speaker 1: really did try to put everything back together and put

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Speaker 1: a good face on it. Obviously, the President went back

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Speaker 1: out on the campaign trail, had a few pretty good

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Speaker 1: speeches at least relative to some expectation, that held things together,

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Speaker 1: and then he pulled us all in. And you chronicle

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Speaker 1: this with the governors. There's a meeting with all the governors,

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Speaker 1: some in person, some virtually, and you set the scene

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Speaker 1: where the reception didn't go as well necessarily as some

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Speaker 1: would expect. A few governors basically said, miss President, we

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Speaker 1: may lose the Senate, we may lose our congressional seats.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about that.

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Speaker 2: So, uh, Michelle Luhan Grisham from from New Mexico, who

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Speaker 2: was I think literally half your height, you.

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Speaker 1: See, would you be proud to acknowledge and twice is

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Speaker 1: tough by the way.

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Speaker 2: Right, But that's the thing she's you know, she gets

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Speaker 2: in there and she's basically like, we can lose a

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Speaker 2: Senate race here, we can lose house seats that have

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Speaker 2: been safe. We could you know, the whole thing could

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Speaker 2: go away. And nobody's thinking about New Mexico. Right, that's

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Speaker 2: not like one of the swing states.

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Speaker 1: That was not not on our minds when we walked

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Speaker 1: in that meeting.

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Speaker 2: And certainly not the only one who expressed those kinds

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Speaker 2: of points, yep. And not just in that meeting, but

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Speaker 2: outside of that, expressing the same concern to him. States

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Speaker 2: were that Democrats should not have had a problem congressional

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Speaker 2: districts where they should not have had a problem suddenly

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Speaker 2: looking you know, staring down the barrel of a huge problem,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I mean, maybe you should take it away.

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Speaker 1: What was what was the rest of any Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did, I mean, I was. We all were asked,

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Speaker 1: you know, what's the advice? I said, last thing I'm

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Speaker 1: going to give is the president of United States advice.

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Speaker 1: I can just tell you what I'm hearing on the

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Speaker 1: campaign trail. But it was interesting the president, after he

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Speaker 1: listened to everybody's advice and as you chronic, quite accurate.

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Speaker 1: What's by the way, just for the record, there is

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Speaker 1: nothing in private that exists. I mean, every sing we

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Speaker 1: might as well be you know, we're all wired. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how. It's something I'm now a little more

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Speaker 1: cautious reading your book that there's not a thing that's

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Speaker 1: uttered in private that ultimately won't become to save.

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Speaker 2: Some of the good stuff for our next one, for next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah no, but it's a point of consideration. But that

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Speaker 1: particular meeting was so there was so much that was

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Speaker 1: leaked in that meeting, but you you, shockingly, almost down

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Speaker 1: to the adverbs and pronouns, nailed aspects of that meeting.

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Speaker 1: But what was I think omitted not intentionally, but with

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Speaker 1: sort of the defiance of the president in that meeting,

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Speaker 1: he asserted himself after listening everybody said I am all

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Speaker 1: in and really pushed back, and I remember, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I could be accused of a lot of things, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think I was accused of not being a

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Speaker 1: loyalist to Biden. And true to that form, there was

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Speaker 1: sort of a pause after he said he's in and

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Speaker 1: I started, I said, miss President, is okay that I

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Speaker 1: applaud just to have his back at that meeting, and

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Speaker 1: and I just felt, you know, at that moment, there

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Speaker 1: was a vulnerability in that meeting. And there was vulnerability, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the precarious vulnerability as relates to his electoral fortunes. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm one of those guys. You go home

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Speaker 1: with the one and brought you the dance. That's how

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Speaker 1: my father raised me. I think it was exact, literally,

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Speaker 1: I mean indelible in my mind. Go home with the

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Speaker 1: one you brought to the dance. And so I felt compelled.

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Speaker 1: That's why I went out campaigning for him the next day,

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Speaker 1: after doing the spin room and and being out there.

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Speaker 1: But but you painted I thought a very accurate picture.

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Speaker 1: So you start to see this thing start to fray

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Speaker 1: a little bit. You start to see loyalists express themselves.

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Speaker 1: A few chapters in, you start talking about Nancy Pelosi,

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Speaker 1: but now through her surrogates, perhaps most importantly Adam Schiff,

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Speaker 1: and Schiff shifts a little bit and says.

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Speaker 2: What it's fascinating you want? So's he's a fundraiser on

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Speaker 2: Long Island. The day that Donald Trump gets shot in Butler, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 2: basically about the same time, there's a fundraiser that Shift

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Speaker 2: goes out to do for Alissa Slockin and Angela also Brooks,

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Speaker 2: who are running for the Senate for Michigan and Maryland respectively.

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Speaker 2: And Shift gets out there and basically says what he

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Speaker 2: hasn't been saying publicly to these donors, which is that

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Speaker 2: Biden needs to go and to your point, nothing's private.

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Speaker 2: A transcript of his remark transcript magically makes it into

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Speaker 2: the hands of the New York Times. I have no

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Speaker 2: idea who gave that transcript to the New York Times.

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Speaker 2: But if you were Adam Schiff and you wanted to

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Speaker 2: make this point publicly and wanted to but didn't want

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Speaker 2: to be the first person the state in front of

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Speaker 2: a microphone and say it, that might be a good

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Speaker 2: way to do it. I don't know that that's what happened,

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Speaker 2: but I'm just saying it might have been what happened.

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Speaker 2: The thing that didn't make it out from the same

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Speaker 2: event was the transcript of Alyssa Slack and speaking right

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Speaker 2: after Shiff, who is making kind of the opposite case,

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Speaker 2: which is she thinks that that Vice President Harris will

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Speaker 2: be problematic, uh for candidates on the ballot, particularly for

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Speaker 2: her in Michigan. She talks a little bit about why,

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Speaker 2: but she's basically like, she's to the left and that's

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Speaker 2: going to be harmful to some of our candidates. And

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Speaker 2: she says, but she's also like, she understands Biden is

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Speaker 2: also potentially an anchor. But she's much clearer about Harris,

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Speaker 2: and she says, we're not going to skip over a

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Speaker 2: black woman for the vice presidency. So if you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about some sort of like deis ex Machina, new candidate

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Speaker 2: gets picked out at an open convention, you're crazy, Jade

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Speaker 2: Kritz Skershaw's anybody show exactly. So she's making that case,

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Speaker 2: but she basically says Harris is worse. So the opposite

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Speaker 2: of what Shift says, it never least until our book.

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Speaker 2: And then and then she kind of comes to the conclusion,

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Speaker 2: which is, whatever we do, we have to do it

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Speaker 2: now because savaging each other and within the Democratic Party

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Speaker 2: is going to destroy everyone. And she says, so we

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Speaker 2: need to make a decision and quote unquote suck it up, Buttercup.

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Speaker 3: And what's fascinating is at the same time you have

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Speaker 3: Biden people his staff out there privately sending notes to

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Speaker 3: donors saying and undermining his VP and saying, look, if

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Speaker 3: you push him out, you're stopped with her.

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Speaker 1: And that was the hardest stuff to read.

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Speaker 3: I mean bad luck.

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Speaker 2: I mean you're her friend for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean forty years, going back to before we

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Speaker 1: were both into politics, before she ran for district attorney,

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Speaker 1: before I ran for county supervisor, let alone mayor. So's

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Speaker 1: it's difficult because there's so many aspects, and I want

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Speaker 1: to get to how difficult it is because you know

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Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi's relationship with Kamala and obviously that plays a

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Speaker 1: big role in this book as well, but also Barack

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Speaker 1: Obamas and his lack of support for her candidacy. You

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Speaker 1: just referenced Slockin referenced some of the internal dynamics as

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Speaker 1: it relates to Harris Biden campaign. But let's let's let's

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Speaker 1: let's go back a little bit. Let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: COVID because I think that was a critical point where

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Speaker 1: the president gets COVID h there's a vulnerability that's expressed. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: he's doing his best to put a good face on

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Speaker 1: that debate, to sort of spin his way out. Has

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Speaker 1: a good couple at least from my perspective. Public Rallies

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Speaker 1: has an interview which wasn't as effective perhaps and it

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Speaker 1: was which became an issue. I remember the text messages

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Speaker 1: coming again after that interview. I think it was with

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Speaker 1: what who was a Stephanopholis, which was fine, but people

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Speaker 1: just felt like it wasn't he didn't get out on

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Speaker 1: the other side, and all of a sudden, now he

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Speaker 1: comes down with COVID.

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Speaker 2: He couldn't remember whether he had watched the debate or.

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Speaker 1: Not, which was simple question, Yeah, did you watch it?

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Speaker 1: And what are your thoughts about it?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that was sort of the nail

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Speaker 3: in the coffin. And when you talk to people around him,

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Speaker 3: they admit that you know him walking onto the plane

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Speaker 3: leaving Nevada going home, and then he is in this

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Speaker 3: very vulnerable spot where he's at home, he's surrounded by

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Speaker 3: close aids, he's making the biggest political decision of his life,

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Speaker 3: and you know, when you're not feeling well and then

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Speaker 3: you're backed into a corner. That's just what happened.

433
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 2: And I don't think anybody knows just how sick he was,

434
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: Like he was having real respiratory problems. People were wearing

435
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,239
Speaker 2: masks inside his house. I mean, he was not in

436
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: good shape the final weekend before he made that decision, and.

437
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: He would make the case, and he made it to

438
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: the Governor's directly, but made it very public and on

439
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: multiple occasions as well that he obviously didn't feel well

440
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: into the debate as well. And so look, you paint

441
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: the picture and of him sort of reflecting in those

442
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: private moments back at home. You also paint a picture

443
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: of Jill Biden and a Hunter Biden that played an

444
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: outsized role and saying, Dad, we got this right.

445
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

446
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 3: I mean it's Jill Biden is his strongest, most ardent supporter, obviously,

447
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 3: and she really wanted him to. Hunter Biden, as we

448
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 3: reveal in the book, he's playing a big role in

449
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 3: saying you have to do this, You've got this, pushing

450
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 3: him to go further. And he is so dug in,

451
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 3: you know, and stubborn, you know the president Well, I mean,

452
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: in that moment, he thinks he's the only one who

453
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 3: can win. He still thinks he's there.

454
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: He believes that. And by the way, that's very sincere.

455
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 1: Having proven that he could beat Donald Trump the first time,

456
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: he sort of maintained that, and that was always his

457
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: argument in private. Yeah you know, you know what other

458
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: you say about me, you know, And he would try

459
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: to be a little bit objective and have some situational awareness.

460
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm the guy, and he really firmly believed was the

461
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: only person that could beat him.

462
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but undermining her. At the same time, I think

463
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: a lot of people in her camp were a little

464
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 3: bit pissed off. I mean, I know we're fast forwarding

465
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: quite a bit, but saying, what do you mean You're

466
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: the only one who could have won?

467
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: And let's talk a little bit about that, because I

468
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: think it does connect to Jill Biden as well. You

469
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: write in the book that.

470
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 3: You can tell you've read it.

471
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,959
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, I told you, I'm not making this up.

472
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: It was fantastic. And people that don't care about politics

473
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: or think they might or might not be interested, this

474
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: paints an unbelievably accurate picture of this race, this one

475
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: hundred and seven day race in particular. Of course, you

476
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: go a little bit earlier to the debate on June

477
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: twenty seventh, but it relates to the issue of some

478
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: of the animus that you express, as it relates to

479
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: what is perceived and or is accurate about undermining Kamala Harris,

480
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: who was a very loyal Vice president. And you say

481
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: that in the book that she really went to great

482
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: likes to be a loyal representative of this administration, and

483
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: that Biden primarily had turned the page on any animus

484
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,239
Speaker 1: from the early election primary. But Jill Biden may not

485
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: have you suggest exactly.

486
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 3: She always and this is according to sources we talked to,

487
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: she always held a little bit of that sort of animosity.

488
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: Never really let it go from a debate in.

489
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 3: Twenty nineteen, and you know a lot of people close

490
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 3: aid said that they didn't have a very warm relationship

491
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 3: throughout her time at the White House. That sort of

492
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 3: led you into this process and what was happening. But yeah,

493
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: a really kind of contentious.

494
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: Really he's still trying, Joe Biden is still trying to

495
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: do clean up from perhaps the before the Trump Biden debate,

496
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: the biggest knockout punch I'd ever seen in the debate,

497
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: which was Kamalay Harris hitting him on bussing, which is

498
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 2: why Jill Biden hates her. One of the reasons that

499
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: Joe Biden hates her. Last week Biden did his first

500
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: interview or did his first speech since he left the presidency.

501
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: He gets an award and he talks about moving to

502
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: Wilmington when he's a little kid, and he sees a

503
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: bus full of black children go by, and he uses

504
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: the term quote unquote colored kids. He says, what we

505
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 2: used to call colored kids, and like, I mean, we're

506
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: all roughly the same generation. Nobody has said that in

507
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: our lifetimes, and so it reminds you how old he is.

508
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: But when you listen to the rest of the story

509
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: that he's telling, he's saying, I ask my mom, why

510
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: aren't these kids going to school with me? And she says,

511
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 2: because black children are not allowed to go to school

512
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 2: with white children in Delaware. But decades later, Joe Biden

513
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 2: was trying legislatively to make sure that black kids couldn't

514
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 2: go to school with white kids. So, I mean, it's

515
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 2: like he's still trying to do clean up duty from

516
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: what happened on a debate stage with her on twenty nineteen,

517
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: and of course stumbles all over himself and doing all right.

518
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: So that we move forward, as we stumble forward and

519
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: figurative sense and we fast forward the decision to step

520
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: down and you paint this picture minute by minute, quite literally,

521
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: minute by minute, the inside of the conversations, which is

522
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: remark I still back to everyone being wired, the conversations

523
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: between the president and the vice president, the vice president

524
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: saying are you sure, mister president, sort of maintaining that

525
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: loyalty and firm footing, and then immediately organizing independent it

526
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: seems of her in another room, her at her pool

527
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: house with Tony West, her brother in law, and the

528
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: rest of Camelot. And we'll talk about that in a

529
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: moment with a k the team to start organizing immediately

530
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 1: a strategy to get people on board, but first Kamala

531
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: Harris tries to get the president on board. Tell me

532
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 1: about that.

533
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 3: So let's start with the pool house, because they're meeting

534
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: ahead of this call, and you know, she's in a

535
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: very precarious spot coming into that moment. She's basically telling

536
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 3: everyone and she is, she's very loyal to him, but

537
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 3: at the same time, she has her closest advisors meeting

538
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: in her poolhouse at the Naval Observatory, trying to plan

539
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: what to do in case.

540
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: And let me just inter if you there for one second,

541
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: which is we asked one of our sources, We said,

542
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: what are the odds that that all of these people

543
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: are meeting in the poolhouse at the next to the

544
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: pool at the vice president's residence, like her two chiefs

545
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: of staff. Minon Moore is like running the convention is

546
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: like zoomed in, Tony West is in there. Brian Fallon

547
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: the coms got like, We're like, what are the chances

548
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: that they're there? And she doesn't know what And the

549
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: person who talked to us said, you think there's anybody

550
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: in the vice president's poolhouse? The vice president doesn't know

551
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: exactly what they're doing. Yeah, So.

552
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: They're all gathered there when the call comes in, and

553
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: so they're alerted to the call. She is on the

554
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 3: call with the president, essentially saying are you sure? Are

555
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 3: you sure? And he says yes, and she says, okay,

556
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: are you going to endorse me?

557
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: And he says, you have my support kid, you have

558
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: my support kid.

559
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she knows that that's not really an endorsement.

560
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you've been in politics long enough.

561
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: And so she pushes him and he says, yeah, you know,

562
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to endorse you. But later and think about

563
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: that moment, think about where the party is in that moment.

564
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: If you don't know the E word, it's basically the

565
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: F word. Right. If you're in politics and you ask

566
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: for an endorsement and you don't hear endorsement back.

567
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, even if it's Wednesday and we're on Sunday.

568
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: So they were talking about doing it literally, not that

569
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: same day, No, I'll do it later in the week.

570
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: So quite literally, people.

571
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: Are licking their chops like wondering, is this going to happen?

572
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: Should I enter? She's trying to get all the support.

573
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: Do you know anybody who was thinking about these things

574
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: or talking about these.

575
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: No, nothing about it. So at that moment, I mean,

576
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: so she's to her credit, I mean, this is this

577
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: is a serious moment. I mean, this is and she's

578
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: obviously preparing for this moment to be fair along the

579
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: lines of the picture you pay.

580
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: But quietly, but quietly, he's not doing anything like that

581
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: undermines him.

582
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: And by the way, that's an important point, and I

583
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: can only attest to that too. Again, being sort of

584
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: adjacent to all of this, they were either extraordinarily careful

585
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: in that respect, or they were they were so deeply loyal.

586
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: It could be both and and appears perhaps both hands,

587
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: But there was never a sense that she was trying

588
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: on her mind. And I could just claim to that

589
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: in terms of personal interactions and everybody around her, of

590
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 1: which you know, I have one degree a separation, will

591
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: get to some of those characters in a moment. So

592
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 1: she gets she presses the president, and the president agrees that.

593
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: Later in the day at least one of his visors,

594
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: as you pay in the book, decides, well, we'll tweet

595
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: something out.

596
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: But this requires two phone calls to get to that agreement.

597
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is interesting, right, Like they

598
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: get off the phone and there's still not an agreement

599
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: about this. He says it's Sunday, and he's like, maybe

600
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: like Wednesday or Thursday, and she's like, you have to

601
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 2: endorse me. Now, everyone's going to get out of the gate.

602
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: They're going to be calling their people, they're gonna be

603
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: trying to pick up delegates if you indorse. If you

604
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: get out of the race and you don't endorse me

605
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: for four days, that's four days of everyone thinking that

606
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: you think that I'm not good enough to be president

607
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: of the United States and you picked me to be

608
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 2: your VP, which is her leaning on him right a

609
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: little bit.

610
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: Saying like you keep your judgments, stay sir, right.

611
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: And so they get off the phone and her people

612
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: draft up a statement for him to give and send

613
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: it over, and then finally they get back on the

614
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: phone and go, you know, it's sort of like Biden like,

615
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: I'll do a statement about me and then I'll do

616
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: a statement about you later today, and she's like, please

617
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: be like five minutes later. But the thing is even

618
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: within that, I mean, there's this this incredible tension where

619
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: Joe Biden is focused on taking a victory lap as

620
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 2: the guy that magnanimously got out of office, and I

621
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: think it looks like you can understand like he's been

622
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: president of the United States, he's not gonna run. He

623
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: thinks he's the guy that can win John.

624
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: And then I have such deep emotions about this because

625
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: I remember getting First of all, I remember two things, Kurt.

626
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: Why I felt just full disclosure, a little bit of disappointment,

627
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: not getting heads up because all of a sudden just

628
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: appeared on my feet. I'm like, what I mean, literally,

629
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: I remember exactly where I was. I was just down

630
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: the block. I was just I was on a walk.

631
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: The governor of the fifth largest country in the world.

632
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was fine, but I also was But I

633
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: was out there. I was hustling. I was out there

634
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: when I was a little lonely after that debate, and

635
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: I was out there doing these small you know, for

636
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: the dely you know events, and you know, it's fifty

637
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: people and I'm just you know, I'm trying to do that,

638
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: be a father, uh and do my day job as

639
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: governor at California. And look the way it played out

640
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: actually made me feel better because there were a number

641
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: of others that didn't get heads up as well. I

642
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 1: understood it, but I also understood the gap because I

643
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: remember wanting to put out we did we put out

644
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: a statement. Immediately everyone starts calling you could I mean,

645
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: those are message text messages. But there was a moment

646
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: or for me, just personally, there was I thought, he

647
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: needs his space so we can talk about him, not

648
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: talk about who's next. And so I understood that gap,

649
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: and I understood his for from his perspective, I totally

650
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: understood it. This wasn't about the next thing. This was

651
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: about the end of his presidency and his public service,

652
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: and he needed that grace and space. And I remember

653
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: we were putting together a statement. No sooner than that.

654
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: But I started to get some phone calls from the

655
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: same person that was making calls according to your book,

656
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: to many other governors and elected officials across the country

657
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: by the name of Vice President Kamala Harris.

658
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: And what did you say, reporters, we have questions.

659
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: So she was making those phone calls, and she had

660
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: that list ready to go, and she's picking up endorsements

661
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: at a fevered space. Hey, within a couple of hours

662
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: we had endorse once, we had sort of reflected on

663
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: a little space, put out a statement for Biden. We're

664
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 1: in other governors in. You talk about Cliburn, he's in,

665
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: but someone by the name of Barack Obama is not

666
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: necessarily in. And there's a phone call I think, forgive

667
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: me if I'm off at five point thirty PM to Cliburn.

668
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: Former President Obama wants to make it. Cliburn knows exactly

669
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: why he's calling. Cliburn does what.

670
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 3: He quickly gets behind her because.

671
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: He knows Obama before he knows.

672
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: Obama's going to call him at five point thirty and

673
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: he says to himself, I have to get behind her

674
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: before this Obama call, and so Obama does call him.

675
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 3: He says I've gotten behind Kamla and the call lasts

676
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: less than a minute.

677
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: Obama at like five thirty that afternoon, so like five

678
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 2: or so hours later, for five hours, still trying to

679
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: like plan this like.

680
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: Mini shits back up, and I didn't Obama call you, Kerrie,

681
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: didn't call me directly, but not directly. But this notion

682
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: of a mini primary play is obviously a big part

683
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: of the world, and it was sort of a big

684
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 1: revelatory part of your book that people are like, whoa

685
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 1: interesting didn't know? We knew a little maybe about Pelosi's role,

686
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: perception and reality there, but Obama playing that role not

687
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: of immediately endorsing the vice president as Biden eventually did,

688
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 1: but wanting a mini primary, and then also floating names

689
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: like Whittmer and Moore as president and vice president just

690
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: to sort of tease out what he thought would be

691
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: a very strong ticket. But not Harris bring me into

692
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: understanding the history there, because I recall, wasn't that long

693
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: ago that Kamala Harris decided not to support Hillary Clinton.

694
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: Not an indictment, but decided interestingly after being very close

695
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: to the Clintons we'll get to that in a moment,

696
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: But going to the kickoff of Obama and his presidential rally,

697
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: But it didn't seem that relationship was as strong as

698
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: some of us and understood it to be.

699
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that Number one, I don't think Obama

700
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: ever saw Kamala Harris's endorsement of him as important as

701
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris saw her endorsement of him, which I guess

702
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: at some level is understandable given where she was in

703
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: the world where he was running president right it. But

704
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: but I think that she always wanted a closeness to

705
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: the Obama's and they never felt it. And you know,

706
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: I think maybe best said as emblematic is the only

707
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: time you really heard Barack Obama talk about Kamala Harris

708
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: before she became a vice presidential candidate.

709
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: In your book, when you state he said.

710
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: She's the best looking attorney general in the country, which

711
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: by the way, is not a high bar.

712
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: But it was in But in your book, you react,

713
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: you you reflect on the fact she did not react.

714
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: She did not react quickly or as well as but

715
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: she also didn't say anything publicly, which may have created

716
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: some risk.

717
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 2: She left. She let him hang there for a while, right,

718
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: she let him twist and and like I mean, anybody's

719
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: advisor would advise them to, you know, maybe take take

720
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: a breath that, let that sit out there for a while,

721
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: Let the news media keep writing about it because it's

722
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: elevating her.

723
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 1: It certainly did, and his right.

724
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 2: And I am certain without having spoken to Michelle Obama

725
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: directly about this, but having spoken to other people, Michelle

726
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 2: Obama was not a real big fan of that moment.

727
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: You you write that in your book.

728
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: Said that, I know, But I also, you know, the

729
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 2: other interesting thing that's going on here is so there's

730
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: this sort of background like she's always wanted more from them.

731
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 2: They don't love her, They're not showing her the love.

732
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: Election night. Election night, for example, she goes and wants

733
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 3: to get into his it's two thousand and eight. So

734
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 3: he wins, and they have a family and friends tent.

735
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: You paint this picture as well, tell us more and

736
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: so all the closest members of the Obama team and family, mom.

737
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: Family, family and friends are in a tent. She tries

738
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 3: to get into the tent and is turned away, but

739
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: has a kind of fascination with Obama world. Even as

740
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 3: VP wants to invite the pod save guys over, wants

741
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 3: to always make sure that the Obama world people are included. Yeah,

742
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: so she's really hurt in that moment. I get it,

743
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: and we're told by I was hurt reading this.

744
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: I mean honestly, I didn't fully It's interesting for what

745
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 1: I believed was some insight on all this, I didn't

746
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: appreciate that that riff was is real. Yeah, particularly with

747
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: David Platform. We'll get to David coming on board the

748
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: campaign a little bit later, but keep going.

749
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, she it needs mending the relationship.

750
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: And this is source to people who know exactly what's happening,

751
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 3: so it's not like we're just making this up. But

752
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 3: she was really hurt, and so it needs a couple

753
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 3: of calls between her and the former president to kind

754
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: of come together to kind of understand what had happened.

755
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: But she really really was leaning on his support.

756
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: And in that moment where she's making all the phone calls,

757
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: right after Biden says you know, I'm gonna get out,

758
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: she's making all these phone calls. She wraps so she

759
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: gets Biden's support and gets me agree to endorse her

760
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: on the phone.

761
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: By the way. Game change, right, that's a game change.

762
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: All those delegates game change, yes, right, they all got

763
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: elected to be delegates.

764
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: And you get him, and then all of a sudden,

765
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: you put your point, all the delegates are his. You

766
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 1: get the whole operation. She's now able to sell the operation.

767
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 2: And Bill, Bill and Hillary Clinton within an.

768
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: Hour, and then Bill and Hillary Clinton.

769
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, so which is you know, now you've

770
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: got two of the four living presidents. There you go

771
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: and Jimmy Carter's endorsement. You know, God arrests Jimmy Carter's soul,

772
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 2: but his endorsement is no longer you know something you're

773
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 2: negotiating on a one and and then she gets Obama

774
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: on the phone and she wants his endorsement, and he says,

775
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to put my thumb on the scale,

776
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: which is of course, is exactly putting this thumb on

777
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: the other side of the scale.

778
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 3: Especially later in the week too. It takes him several

779
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: days days.

780
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they do this kind of cringey video.

781
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: Awkward calm, which you said was set up and she

782
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: had to act like it was a surprise, And there's

783
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: some discrepancy you describe who really set it up? Who

784
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 1: didn't set it up? What do you make of all that?

785
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: What do you make of your own discrepancy?

786
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: Well, were sources told us that. I mean, basically, I

787
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 2: think Gena Mally Dylan, who was running the campaign, thought

788
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: that there was an opportunity to get a viral video,

789
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: make some money and not for her personally raising in

790
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: the campaign. Because remember, the donors had choked off Biden,

791
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: like the donors to his super pack, you know, uh

792
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: features Forward had choked off the money. Nobody was setting

793
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: up fundraisers.

794
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: For him, another pressure point on one of the reasons

795
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: he decided to draw.

796
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: Right, he didn't have the money. They thought it might

797
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: come back if he stayed in, but they weren't sure.

798
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 2: When they're looking at red Ink, they're worried about making

799
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: you know, potentially making payroll, even though there's a campaign

800
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: that is likely to raise you know, a billion plus

801
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: ends up raising about two billion, But in that moment,

802
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: they're short on cash, and it's like, well, if we

803
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: can get these two to do something that's kind of viral,

804
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: we can do it. But Michelle Obama doesn't want to

805
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 2: go on camera, or you know, Barack Obama doesn't want

806
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: to go on camera, so it ends up being their

807
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: voices talking to her taking a phone call. She's smiling.

808
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: It's so phony looking, And I think the irony of

809
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: that is that for the most part we actually see

810
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: what like get what we see with Vice President Harris,

811
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: like good, bad and different, Like she seems to me

812
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: to be one of the more authentic people at that

813
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: level of national politics, and that there's not I don't know,

814
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: I just don't like. It seemed so packaged and so

815
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 2: phony for someone who like you see when she's not,

816
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: like when she's struggling to do things. You can see

817
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: when she's not comfortable in something.

818
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: She wasn't happy in that moment, you can see. Yeah,

819
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 3: her aids kind of told us as much that she's

820
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 3: she thinks she knows you have to be authentic in politics,

821
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: and she knows that it's a very staged call she's

822
00:41:59,239 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 3: not happy about.

823
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, just the whole idea of it. I get it.

824
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: And it's been particularly after as you've written, and now

825
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: we've learned what didn't happen the days prior leading up

826
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: to that. Let's fast forward a little bit. That's basically

827
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: the first half of your book out sort of this moment,

828
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: and then we pivot into the second half of the

829
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: book and you pull in mar A Lago versus Kame Loot,

830
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: as you describe it in one chapter, what's going on

831
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: in the Trump campaign at this moment. They seem a

832
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: bit surprised that it was that quick, right to shift

833
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: and transfer overwhelming support pretty quickly, with a few exceptions,

834
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: and you chronicle one governor in particular, not even consequential

835
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: in the context of the overall support she was getting.

836
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: The momentum was there, it was real, and it was enthusiastic,

837
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: and the folks out in Florida were feeling slightly anxious curious.

838
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: Give us a little bit of insight into how the

839
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: campaign of Donald Trump, Los Avitas Wiles, we're feeling Trump

840
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: himself at this moment.

841
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 3: It's a low moment for them. Yeah, you know, they

842
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: are sitting there looking at the vibe, if you will.

843
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 3: They see that Democrats are actually excited for once. You know,

844
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 3: they weren't getting that from them at any point, and

845
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: here they are huge convention, a lot of momentum. She's

846
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: raising a lot of money, she is attracting big crowds.

847
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: Biden isn't getting those crowd wasn't getting them before, so

848
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 3: he's wondering, what do I need to do differently? Do

849
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 3: I need to shake things up? Do I need to

850
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 3: bring back the people from my past?

851
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: And there's one particular character you referenced in the book

852
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: by the name of her Lewin Deusk and he appears again,

853
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: and he appears as an irritant of sorts to the

854
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: two folks, the loyal soldiers los a Vetas and Wiles,

855
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: who had been running this campaign in a way that

856
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: a lot of folks were pretty impressed by, particularly by

857
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: Trump's standards. I don't know if we're grading on a

858
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: curve or not, but it seemed to be a well

859
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: managed campaign, a little different than the campaign for your prior.

860
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: Trump is Trump, and there are different shades of Trump,

861
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: but like you pretty much know where you're gonna get,

862
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 2: which is something different every time you see and definitely

863
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: you know, attracting news and sometimes undercutting himself and whatever.

864
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: But the question is, like, what does the campaign do

865
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: beneath him? Right? Are they able to react to him

866
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: in ways that support him winning or do they devolve

867
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: into chaos because they can't figure out what he's doing.

868
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: And we've seen Option B a lot like in his

869
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: first presidency, even a little bit in the second presidency

870
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: and in his previous campaigns. This time Wiles and las Avida,

871
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: who didn't really know each other before the selection, but

872
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: are both seasoned campaign professional and just.

873
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: To paint the picture because people know who the lassa vitas,

874
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: this is the guy did swipboat against the Kerry campaign

875
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: many many years ago. I mean in political terms, I mean,

876
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,240
Speaker 1: this guy is as tough as it gets. Yeah, brass knuckles.

877
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean yeah, if you're in a trench somewhere,

878
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: you know, first of all, he's a veteran, but like

879
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: if you're in a trench somewhere in politics, but you

880
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: want that guy like he's he's gonna fight.

881
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, Wiles is a well respected operative in Florida

882
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: that's managed a lot of campaigns, including former governor or

883
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: current governor, but formerly for Governor Ron de Santis.

884
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the daughter of Pat Somerle, pat legendary Pats who

885
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 2: I am sure called many San Francisco. Yes, but he

886
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: but Susie is somebody who has been involved in politics

887
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: for her entire career and she is in her like

888
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: mid sixties now, uh. And she like got her first

889
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 2: job in the White House, in the Reagan White House,

890
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: like you know, kind of early in life, worked at

891
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: the labor Department for him, and then went to Florida

892
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: and worked for mayors in you know, Jacksonville, right, and

893
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: like really sort of got to understand politics from the

894
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: ground up to ransom high profile Florida statewide campaigns to

895
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: Santus and she manages well, she's just just a good manager.

896
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: I mean well respected. You hear that. Across party lines.

897
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: People do not underestimate her, and one should not. She's

898
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 1: current chieve a staff of President Trump.

899
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so Lewandowski comes in and he ran the

900
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: sixteen campaign for Trump until he got booted from that,

901
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: you know, sort of toward the end of the primary.

902
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 2: And he comes in and he does what everyone does

903
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: in Trump world, which is when they sense a little

904
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 2: blood in the water. And Harris is rising the poles

905
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: and Trump's falling back a little bit. And it's at

906
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: this moment in like September, even into early October, it's

907
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 2: basically a dead heat. And Trump is furious about this

908
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: because he beaten Biden.

909
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: Yep, he felt it was over clobert him in the debate.

910
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: In fact, you even paint a picture in the debate

911
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: he kind of was a little more empathetic. He decided

912
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: not to go in for the kill, even backed off

913
00:46:58,800 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: even Trump during the debate.

914
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: You describe some kind of combination of of him recognizing that,

915
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 2: you know, in this moment that like Biden has wounded

916
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 2: and there's no need to kick him, and also understanding

917
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: the political backlash of, as he puts it, looking you know,

918
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: he doesn't want to look like an as he's thinking.

919
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: So this guy's I mean, he's feeling everything's going in

920
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: his direction. This thing's will walk. And now all of

921
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: a sudden he brings in the old pro to sort

922
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: of stress test, his old buddy Lewandowski. That's going to

923
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: come in and it's going to look under the tires

924
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: because one of the vulnerabilities and one of the things

925
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: Trump doesn't like you describe in your book is wasteful

926
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 1: spending profligacy. And it appeared, at least to Lewandowski and

927
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: some of the critics out there, that Las Avitas had

928
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: banked a little too much twenty plus million or something.

929
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's just like that's an absurd amount.

930
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: Let me just think about like the idea that some

931
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: campaign staffer has got twenty two million dollars coming in.

932
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 2: It's just like, on its face absurd. But this is

933
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: the this is the stuff Corey Lewin is, you know,

934
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: using against las Avita and and against Susie to some extent,

935
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 2: Like the argument that Lewandowski is making to Trump is

936
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: the reason that you are having trouble right now politically,

937
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: the reason that Kamala Harris is rising your falling is

938
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: that these guys are mismanaging your campaign and this and

939
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: Trump wants that's the kind of thing that usually gets

940
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 2: Trump to act. And Susie and Chris go to Trump

941
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: in mar Lago unbeknownst to Corey, and they sit down

942
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: with them and they lay out what all the campaigns

943
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: spending it is, and I think they lay out a

944
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 2: little bit of who Corey is. And they all get

945
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 2: on Trump Force one and Trump calls Corey over and

946
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 2: and just I mean like a schoolboy. He's like at

947
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: one point like kind of kneeling at the table.

948
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you literally describe him kneeling at the table.

949
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: And Trump, you know, looks at Lewandowski and he points

950
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: to Susie and Chris and he goes they're in charge,

951
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 2: and you're going to New Hampshire, which is not doing

952
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: New Hampshire at least, right, But I mean the base yeah,

953
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: like stop, like go away, go away, like love you Corey,

954
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: great guy, glad you support me, go somewhere.

955
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: Right.

956
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: For anyone who thinks that we just focus on the

957
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: Democratic train wreck, no, no.

958
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: So I mean this is a sort of we pivot

959
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: now in a section two of your book, Now, all

960
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: of a sudden, we start to pull Trump into this narrative,

961
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: and of course that anxiety. But he sticks with his team,

962
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: and he shows, as you suggest in the book, a

963
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: maturity in terms of a discipline of the campaign that

964
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: he may not have been as president.

965
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: I think twenty twenty. I think twenty twenty had an

966
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: effect on him. I think he learned some lessons from it,

967
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 2: and in this moment and in others, he chooses stability

968
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: over chaos for the purpose of winning the presidency. We

969
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: do not always see that now now that he's in

970
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: his second term, and we often see the opposite of that.

971
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: But for that moment, he's got to win this race,

972
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 2: and he lost in twenty twenty, and it burns him

973
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 2: and he's trying to stick with the things that he think,

974
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: dance with the one that brought you. Yep, he's doing

975
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: that with these campaign folks. And you even see it

976
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 2: in the policies that he chooses where his aides are

977
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 2: giving him strong advice on say, a national abortion ban,

978
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: where they say, don't they have to do a slide

979
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: show for him, and they're like, here's what the abortion

980
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: laws are in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, the swing states,

981
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 2: and if you do a national abortion ban, you're taking

982
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 2: abortion abortion rights away from women in those states. But

983
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 2: if you don't support it, their rights stay the same,

984
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: and therefore that's you're taking it off the table as

985
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: an issue in those states, or at least for a

986
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: lot of the voters. Right. So you see him kind

987
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: of learning from the last time. He supports early voting

988
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: in this election, which he doesn't believe in, which he's

989
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: going to try to take away now that he's president.

990
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 2: But he is told, you get to bank the vote.

991
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 2: So again this money thing, it's like, once you have

992
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 2: a vote in early, you don't have to spend money

993
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: to convince that voter anymore.

994
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: So you describe and as we move further into the book,

995
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: we have this dialectic between the Harris campaign and the

996
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: Biden campaign and this notion around change. Obviously to every

997
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: election is about change, or allegedly of elections about change.

998
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: But it's difficult. You have a city vice president, it's

999
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: been endorsed by President Biden, deep pride in the work

1000
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: that President Biden's done in his legacy. He wants that

1001
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: legacy maintained. You described Trump showing a little bit I'm

1002
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 1: not going far as sister Shoulder moment, but shows some dexterity,

1003
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: a willingness to sut shift in terms of policy principles

1004
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 1: on the national abortion brand, kind of break with some

1005
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: of the mainstream of this party, more of the conservative

1006
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: elements of his party. But Harris had a more difficult

1007
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: time in that space. You described a moment in time

1008
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: that was indelible for many people, and that was her

1009
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: appearance on the View Take us through.

1010
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 3: So we should start by saying that her aids had

1011
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 3: prepped her for this moment that she's about to be

1012
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 3: asked on the View. She's asked what would you change

1013
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 3: about Biden's presidency? And she says not a thing.

1014
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: But she was prepped for that question.

1015
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: She was prepped for that question.

1016
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: Was that the answer.

1017
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 3: It was not the answer. She was supposed to say that,

1018
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 3: but and I know you know this more than anyone.

1019
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 3: She was supposed to pivot forward and say, but you know,

1020
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 3: the future is going to look a lot different. And

1021
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 3: so when she says it, her aids are all like,

1022
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 3: what what just happened? We just we prepped for this

1023
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 3: moment and they can't believe. But and that moment that

1024
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 3: the Trump campaign was looking for something in her words,

1025
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 3: to kind of make that point to say in a

1026
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 3: change election, she is exactly what we just had, and

1027
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 3: here she is saying it, and they put out an

1028
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 3: ad a few days later. I'm surprised it even took

1029
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 3: that long, but they put out an ad essentially saying, no,

1030
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 3: it's going to be exactly a representation of.

1031
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: And this is at a time when the right track

1032
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: wrong track of the country was way off and all

1033
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: the inflation scars and including well, I mean across the spectrum,

1034
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: people really were looking for fundamental change.

1035
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 3: And what a weird spot for her to be in,

1036
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 3: because you know, she was always trying to prove that

1037
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 3: she was a loyalist, and here she is she is

1038
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 3: a loyalist. She's very loyalist.

1039
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 1: She was very loyal publicly, not just privately in that

1040
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: respect and express that and you paint a picture. And

1041
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: I think the outcome of the election may suggest that

1042
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: she did that in her own parallel on electoral peril.

1043
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: But with Joe Biden pardon of the government, with President

1044
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: Biden breathing down her neck over and over and over again,

1045
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: saying no daylight, kid, he says it to.

1046
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 1: Her, and that's an exact quote, exact quote.

1047
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 2: The day of her debate with Trump. And this is

1048
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 2: the thing he's been telling her for years. There should

1049
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: be no daylight between us. Meaning you don't undermine me.

1050
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 2: You're my vice president. Yeah, you don't undermind me.

1051
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you know what I'm not. I'm not a

1052
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: political pun and I'm not an advisor. I don't even

1053
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: play a good one as a as a governor trying

1054
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: to be objective, But what the hell are you supposed

1055
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: to do? The minute she deviates from them, they'll pounce

1056
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: and they'll show all the videos of her shaking her

1057
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: head standing behind them at the podium when President Biden

1058
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: makes an announcement. It's a very difficult position. And presumably

1059
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: they thought, and I say they because David Pluff now

1060
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: appears in the picture, an old hand, obviously one of

1061
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: Obama's principal consultants and campaign strategists. They merge with the

1062
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: General Malley Dylan, who is running the Biden campaign. They

1063
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: try to integrate the two. They have a long standing

1064
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: relationship Pluff and O'Malley, and so they're sort of they're

1065
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 1: dancing this dance. But they see the crowds. They see

1066
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris up there, a woman African American. She has changed.

1067
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: She seems to be the personification to change. They can

1068
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,479
Speaker 1: make that case, maybe without even making the case.

1069
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 2: But that's what they did with Obama in two thousand

1070
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: and eight. Right in two thousand and eight, which was

1071
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 2: also a change election, and George W. Bush was deeply

1072
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 2: unpopular and there was a financial crisis in the middle

1073
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 2: of that campaign. They couldn't have known that when they

1074
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,320
Speaker 2: started with Obama has changed. But they knew Barack Obama

1075
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 2: represents physical change. You can see the change. You don't

1076
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 2: have to say it. They don't ever have to talk

1077
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 2: about his skin color, right, they don't have to talk

1078
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: about his name like whatever. They know he that was

1079
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 2: their two thousand and eight campaign. This is twenty twenty four,

1080
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 2: and you have the same people running a campaign with

1081
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: the same concept here that people are going to look

1082
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: at her and say, well, that's the change I'm looking for.

1083
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: Like it's just it's as if they didn't watch the

1084
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 2: last sixteen years of politics or so, and they're running

1085
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 2: cookie cutter campaigns. That would you say on like sort

1086
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 2: of this crazy like sort of data analysis as your strategy.

1087
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 2: And the thing that I always come back to as

1088
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: emblematic not necessarily causal, is the transad that was run

1089
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: against Harris.

1090
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that, because you just brought up

1091
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: the issue of data and it plays a big role

1092
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: in your book. You really analyze that, I mean you

1093
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 1: you you sort of lay out how analytical this campaign

1094
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 1: was and the utilization of this billion and a half dollars,

1095
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: the two billion dollars that was the overall spend in

1096
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 1: this campaign, and how those researchers were put to work

1097
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: and it was a data to your point, data driven

1098
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: campaign and decisions were made or not made on that basis,

1099
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: And you just referenced an ad and interesting, I had

1100
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: an interesting Oval Office conversation at least with the chief

1101
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 1: of staff, whiles. I was waiting to see President Trump

1102
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: in the Oval office with los A Vitas, and we

1103
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: talked about this ad. Now yeah, and and they they

1104
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: lay out what they perceived as a weakness, and they

1105
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: asked me, as someone from California, intimately familiar with some

1106
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,720
Speaker 1: of the ongoing of the campaign, why didn't she respond

1107
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: more forcefully? And in your book you answer that question,

1108
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: You pose it and answer it by saying, well, the

1109
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 1: data bared out we didn't need to answer.

1110
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 3: Bill Clinton calls he's watching, he's in California, he's watching

1111
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,439
Speaker 3: the ads play out, and he picks up the phone

1112
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 3: and he's trying to reach anyone who.

1113
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: Will, anyone who will get in touch with.

1114
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 3: Gena Melly Dyllan And he says, you know what's going on.

1115
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 3: Every time I'm at a rope line, I keep hearing

1116
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 3: from people. Are they going to respond to this?

1117
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: He's watching it in the ad? Is they them? Trust?

1118
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: So it's a it's an ad, a video an ad. Yeah.

1119
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: So she's in a candidate interview during the primary for

1120
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: the original election or the old election, and and she's

1121
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: asked a question around trans surgeries, and so there's a

1122
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: video of her expressing her policy point of view, so

1123
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: it's not assertion, it's an actual video. Uh. And the

1124
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: Trump campaign decides to play this up and it's on

1125
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: every sports program they're targeting young men. We'll get to

1126
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: that issue of gender and a second. And it seems

1127
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: to be very effective, and based upon what I heard

1128
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: directly from the source, they said it was not just effective,

1129
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: it was off the charts effective. But the data wasn't

1130
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: bearing that out. That's Harris campaign.

1131
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 3: That's what she generally. Jillian tells Bill Clinton when he

1132
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 3: calls up, and he's like, what's going on? But the data,

1133
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: but the data, the data.

1134
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 2: Says says the trans ad is not effective against Harris.

1135
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 2: And even more than that, there they test their responses

1136
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: with focus groups and decide that none of the responses

1137
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 2: are effective. And like, I don't think you have to

1138
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 2: be a political genius to I mean, I'm sure you

1139
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 2: watched that ad the first time, watching the World Series

1140
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: or a football game or whatever, and your job dropped,

1141
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 2: and you're like, wow, we thought differently, But.

1142
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: Like, oh, I was with the Clinton camp at the time,

1143
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: and we not only was at a Clinton camp full disclosure,

1144
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: we started doing our own research. This course happened in

1145
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: the research was self evidence. There was already articles coming

1146
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: out that this was a policy there was existed when

1147
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: Trump was president United States. So there you have a vulnerability.

1148
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: He's attacking the vice president for a position that he

1149
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: was allowed to advance as president. So you had an

1150
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: opportunity to push back there. But also we started doing

1151
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: our own research because this was at CDCR in the

1152
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: state of California. What's the origin story of this policy

1153
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: or was there a settlement? It was court and post settlement,

1154
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: she was ag she was compelled to advance that settlement

1155
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 1: based upon a judge's decision. And so all of these

1156
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: areas of opportunity to push back. And I think we

1157
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: all expressed strong opinion. I'll leave it at that in

1158
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: hope and expectition, but they chose not to.

1159
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 3: Did you get a similar response?

1160
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: We just you know, well I got a how about

1161
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: this not dissimilar response? Is that a political politician trying

1162
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: to answer a question?

1163
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 2: I think we got it.

1164
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: But it was interesting, but it played, it goes, It

1165
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: goes to some of these key moments because you you

1166
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: mark this as a key moment, and you mark that

1167
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: David Pluff came in saying, this is election all about

1168
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: key moments. It's about debates, it's about the convention. It's

1169
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: about these sort of magical moments that move in your

1170
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: direction or in the opposite direction. But that seemed to

1171
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: play an outside because they put what thirty plus million

1172
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: dollars into that one ad alone.

1173
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, I don't remember the exact amount, but it

1174
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 2: was a ton because it was playing everywhere and it

1175
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 2: was playing nationally. Right, it's playing again the World Series

1176
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 2: NFL like Monday Night Football, right. I mean, it is

1177
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: hitting a ton of yours and hitting them over and

1178
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: over and over again. I think one of the things

1179
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 2: that's sort of interesting about this I would just take it.

1180
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 2: You know, this sort of data thing. I mean, look,

1181
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 2: you're watching football. They tell you to go on fourth

1182
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: and two because the data tells you to go, and

1183
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 2: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Right, But if you're

1184
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 2: the coach, you should know my offensive line is actually

1185
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 2: kind of they're huffing and puffing right now, and the

1186
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 2: quarterbacks got a bad ankle. And maybe even though the

1187
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: data says I should do it, I'm watching reality. Yeah,

1188
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 2: so you see the trans ad and it's like her

1189
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 2: own words, it's like four or five different positions. Right,

1190
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:08,919
Speaker 2: state funded trans surgery for undocumented immigrants who are in prison, Yes,

1191
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 2: and they them versus.

1192
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: He's what a tagline?

1193
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 3: What a tag Probably the most potent political ad of

1194
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 3: the last several cycles.

1195
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: And so I you'd be hard pressed to disagree.

1196
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: So I go back at this data stuff, and I'm like, so,

1197
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 2: where does this come from? And I think it's this

1198
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: this myth that grew out of two thousand and eight

1199
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: that Barack Obama's campaign team made Barack Obama president. And

1200
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 2: there was a whole lot written. There were magazine articles

1201
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 2: and books and about how the brilliant people around Barack

1202
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 2: Obama made him president, and none of it stopped to say,

1203
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 2: maybe Barack Obama was a unique political talent. Maybe he

1204
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 2: was running an election where there was a super weakened

1205
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: incumbent party, right. I mean, it was all like, oh,

1206
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 2: we had this great data team, that must be why

1207
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 2: he won. Interesting, And I'm like, I don't know, is

1208
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 2: that really your conclusion why Barack Obama was president of

1209
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 2: the United State. It's not mine.

1210
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: You're talking about my friends here. Jonathan David's a good friend.

1211
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,439
Speaker 1: I'm not there they're incredibly talented. But I appreciate your point.

1212
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm not the broader point about you know what lessons

1213
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: we learn and you know and and who is I mean,

1214
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: it is a great point. I mean, is it the

1215
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: candidate or is it the campaign?

1216
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: Well, I would go back to David and I would say,

1217
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 2: I'm not knocking David. David was the campaign manager on

1218
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 2: that two thousand and eight campaign. They ran a really

1219
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,439
Speaker 2: good campaign. I'm just it's the people that like come

1220
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 2: out of that learning like, oh, it must have been this.

1221
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 2: I don't think if you talked to David Pluffy would

1222
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 2: tell you Barack Obama was president of the United States,

1223
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,439
Speaker 2: because David Pluff's a genius. And I'm not saying David

1224
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 2: Pluffy would never acknowledge that. No, right, So, I mean,

1225
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 2: but I do think that you come down a generation

1226
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 2: or two and the people that worked on that campaign

1227
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 2: or around it kind of draw some.

1228
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: Of the right. I'd be one of them, right, I mean,

1229
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: I would revere that insight they would have, and as

1230
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: a candidate I would look to that, I would, and

1231
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: you would be remarkably deferential. I mean, and look, she

1232
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: had one hundred and seven days this thing and by

1233
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: the way, I thought, and I humbly submit, I thought

1234
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: she won ran under the circumstance. It's a pretty remarkable campaign.

1235
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: But you paint a few circumstances that test that theory

1236
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: in one of them. As we move towards two seventy

1237
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 1: and getting near page two sixty eight, the conclusion of

1238
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: your book two hundred and seventy Electoral Votes, I'm referring

1239
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: to is Texas. All things Texas, this notion that, all right,

1240
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: he's playing these ads, He's going after young men. Trump's

1241
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 1: also sort of playing into an archetype and a cultural thing.

1242
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: He's got Alk Holgan there, he's got him ripping off

1243
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: his shirt. He's got Dana White, He's at UFC events.

1244
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: He's going because Baron, at least Trump claims. Baron says, hey,

1245
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: there's this thing podcast. You should go on him, Dad,

1246
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: And he starts going on all these folks. And then

1247
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 1: there's this guy by the name of Joe Rogan. Rogan

1248
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: plays a seemingly outsized role not just in the campaign

1249
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: but also in your book Texas Hold him.

1250
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this rally happens in Texas, and everyone's questioning,

1251
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: why is she going to Texas in the final Friday

1252
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 3: Friday Night.

1253
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna we eventually Democrats will take back Texas. It's

1254
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: near the end of the campaign. There's high school football

1255
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: and there's some tonal issues there.

1256
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, but she goes there and everyone's like, why why

1257
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 3: not Pennsylvania, why not anywhere else? She's in Texas. We

1258
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 3: find out in this book we do reporting, they move

1259
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 3: the this, they create this entire rally to be in

1260
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 3: Texas on Friday night because they want to be within

1261
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 3: striking distance of Joe Rogan's podcast. He doesn't go anywhere.

1262
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: He's in Austin, Texas. You have to find anywhere Trump

1263
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: had to go visit him, you man of Vice.

1264
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so they are in this back and forth

1265
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 3: with his people. When do we go When a huge

1266
01:04:55,800 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 3: back and forth, they finally say they're they're trying to

1267
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 3: to arrange one date. And finally this is at the

1268
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 3: end of like a huge back and forth, and they

1269
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 3: finally come to the conclusion that, you know, he is

1270
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 3: taking a personal day.

1271
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: So Rogan tells that Harris campaign folks, according to your

1272
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: sources in your book, Uh, he's not available that Friday

1273
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: because he has a personal day day. What it turns out.

1274
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 3: President Trump is there on that day, so.

1275
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: He had presumably that personal day was already filled. Lock

1276
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 1: locked in with former President Donald Trump in person for

1277
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 1: a three hour sit down with Joe Rogan. Meanwhile, Harris

1278
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 1: is there on a Friday night expecting Beyonce to come

1279
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 1: out to sing. Uh, And Beyonce comes out and.

1280
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 2: Does not sing, and we ended up.

1281
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: You know, but you rightfully make the case Beyonce is

1282
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: not a bad Now it's about as good as even

1283
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: you acknowledge in your book.

1284
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 2: Pleased. You know, when my wife and I were knew

1285
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 2: of house hopefully come to sing it well said at

1286
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: the ceremony.

1287
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: But there was some expectation worst case, because she's going

1288
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: to come in and say she ends up just giving

1289
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: a speech.

1290
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 2: She just gives a speech, and so it's just wonderful. Nonetheless,

1291
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 2: I'm sure she would love to have had Beyonce give

1292
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 2: a speech anywhere, anytime. Not a lot of swing voters

1293
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 2: in swing states at the Texas rally watching Beyonce, right,

1294
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 2: But that's it.

1295
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: But he explained, by the way, for those that I

1296
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 1: never knew this, I was wondering you so you paint this,

1297
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: there's there's for those who are wondering why didn't she

1298
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: go on Joe Rogan. There was a lot of effort

1299
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: the Harris campaign made to try to go on. There

1300
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 1: was sort of negotiation that were logistics, uh, and there

1301
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 1: was this sort of anchor event that would lead to

1302
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: conclude that she sincerely wanted to go on the Rogan.

1303
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: I think she sincerely wanted to go. There was internal

1304
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: debate within the campaign about whether to try for that

1305
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 2: or not, and the people who wanted to want one

1306
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 2: out in that debate. But it was it was not

1307
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 2: like a like a ninety five to five, It was

1308
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: like a fifty one to forty nine. But once they

1309
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 2: committed to it, they committed to it so much so

1310
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 2: that they literally put her in Texas in October in

1311
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 2: the stretch run of the campaign for a rally, you know,

1312
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 2: and said that it had to do something with abortion rights,

1313
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, well, we can do an abortion

1314
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 2: rights rally anywhere. Texas is a big state matters for that. Yeah,

1315
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 2: whatever the cover story was, I actually think that what

1316
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 2: happened here is that there was some interest on both sides.

1317
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:27,919
Speaker 2: They had a negotiation and it fell through, and then

1318
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 2: you know, there's some some finger pointing on both sides

1319
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 2: because I think both I think both sides legitimately had

1320
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 2: some interest in doing it, and sometimes things fall apart.

1321
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 2: But the fact that they made this entire rally, and

1322
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 2: you know, to try to get this done when it

1323
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 2: wasn't already like like siin sealed and delivered is it's

1324
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 2: kind of jaw dropping.

1325
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: So the Rogan thing plays an outsize and you know

1326
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: the idea, and that people can go to. What happened?

1327
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: Why did she lose? Was it the view the unwillingness

1328
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:58,959
Speaker 1: to separate from someone that was difficult to separate from

1329
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: because he didn't want her to separate and she wanted

1330
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: express loyalty. Was it the nature of incumbency, and there's

1331
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: an incumbency penalty of sorts, and you saw that globally,

1332
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 1: though not exclusively globally, but you saw it in a

1333
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: lot of other countries. Was it inflation? Was it immigration,

1334
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: which obviously played a role in this campaign. Was it

1335
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 1: interest rates which people often forget about car loans and

1336
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 1: home loans, mortgage rates and the like. But all this

1337
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 1: time she wasn't thinking about that. She was confident she

1338
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: was going to win.

1339
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 3: She goes into election night thinking she's going to win.

1340
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 3: Same with Tim wall so much so that when they're

1341
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 3: told they can't believe it, they can't find the words.

1342
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 1: And so you describe that those two scenes, Yeah, of

1343
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:46,679
Speaker 1: Tim Waltz getting getting alerted that they've lost, but also

1344
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris being told that she's not going to win.

1345
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: They had prepared in every way, shape or form, confident.

1346
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 1: You got that Iowa poll, you high highlight and we

1347
01:08:57,680 --> 01:08:59,120
Speaker 1: all felt it. I felt it.

1348
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 3: Did you think this was a winnable race?

1349
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,839
Speaker 1: Yes, he did. I think it absolutely was a winnable

1350
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 1: even with all those factor with all the factors of the

1351
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:08,760
Speaker 1: five eyes, I would add Israel endto I mean all

1352
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 1: those things were, I mean huge headwinds, unquestionably, but I

1353
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: mean she there was energy there. You know, I was,

1354
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 1: You're out on the campaign trail, you felt it, there

1355
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 1: was there was something different happening that said. I mean,

1356
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: in hindsight, we can look back and we can make

1357
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,919
Speaker 1: a different argument because we're all experts and geniuses in hindsight.

1358
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: But going into election night, I was sixty forty she

1359
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: was going to pull it off. I felt the same

1360
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 1: way they felt. And again everyone, you know, people on

1361
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: the right watch and just rolling their eyes laughing that

1362
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,599
Speaker 1: that I'm saying that I'm just being transparent and honest

1363
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:43,640
Speaker 1: and and and uh, you know, it was going to

1364
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 1: be close. But she was really confident that that sort

1365
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:52,719
Speaker 1: of marked to two seventy. And Trump, meanwhile, was reasonably confident.

1366
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: Cautiously I think was the you quote of people saying cautiously, sir.

1367
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 3: He was nervous.

1368
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: He was nervous that night.

1369
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 2: He kept he thought he was going to win in

1370
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: twenty twenty.

1371
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1372
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 2: Right. His team had told him, if you hit a

1373
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 2: certain threshold nationally, right, if you get whatever, the number was,

1374
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 2: sixty five million votes nationally, your president. And he hit

1375
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 2: that number and he lost. And the reason he hit

1376
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 2: that number and lost is because the increase in the

1377
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 2: Democratic number of votes in twenty twenty from twenty sixteen

1378
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 2: was like twenty one percent. It was I mean, the

1379
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:24,640
Speaker 2: participation rate in twenty twenty was insane. Everybody's home, they

1380
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 2: had nothing else to do, they could vote early. You know,

1381
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 2: states made accommodations for people to vote, and so Trump

1382
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 2: was I think this is the part of the reason

1383
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:35,679
Speaker 2: that he kept going out there and saying that people

1384
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:37,760
Speaker 2: were cheating and obviously it benefits him to say that

1385
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 2: and has continued to benefit him. But I think part

1386
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 2: of the reason is he was looking to explain what

1387
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 2: didn't make sense to him because he had lost in

1388
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 2: twenty twenty and been so shocked. And in this book, readers,

1389
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 2: will I think, be interested in spending those last few

1390
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 2: minutes with Kamala Harris. We take you inside her sort

1391
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 2: of personal quarters in the vice President's residence. Yeah, and

1392
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 2: what she's kind of concluding that night, and I think,

1393
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 2: I think it's very powerful and I don't want to

1394
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:06,759
Speaker 2: that away.

1395
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:11,479
Speaker 3: The big bombshell I think is that she was gas

1396
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 3: lit by her own campaign.

1397
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: Meaning they gave her no indication otherwise that she was

1398
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: going to get there correct.

1399
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 2: Even though their final tally, their final projection of the

1400
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 2: race had her losing.

1401
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 1: And so that leads to our conclusion the epilogue. And

1402
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: what's remarkable the epilogue is how contemporary it is to

1403
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: this moment we're actually sitting in, which suggests this thing

1404
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:44,799
Speaker 1: either it keeps writing itself or you just quite literally

1405
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: finished this book. The lessons learned. The word gaslighting came

1406
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: up in this book over and over and over again,

1407
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 1: and how the American people may have felt, and I

1408
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: know there's other books being written in this space and

1409
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 1: how people feel like, you know, I imagine I'm among them,

1410
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 1: that people were not expressive enough about where Joe Biden

1411
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,439
Speaker 1: was in terms of what was perceived or real as

1412
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: it relates to his physical health or cognitive decline. I

1413
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 1: of course never experienced any of that, quite literally, so

1414
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: I would have been lying if I played to that,

1415
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 1: except one event which you reference in the book, and

1416
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: that's the fundraiser, that infamous George Cloney fundraiser where it

1417
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 1: was clear and that for me, jet lag was as

1418
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: easy a way to describe that as anything else. But

1419
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: it was clear that something was a little bit off

1420
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,759
Speaker 1: or different. But this notion of gaslighting in the campaign

1421
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: from an analytics perspective in the sense that and having

1422
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 1: conversations particularly you know, we have the vice president or

1423
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: vice presidental nominee, Governor Walts on this podcast. I mean,

1424
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 1: you're right, they really he was absolutely confident that they

1425
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: were going to pull this thing off.

1426
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:54,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, he can't find the words. We take you inside

1427
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 3: his hotel room at the Mayflower in Washington, and his

1428
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 3: wife has to say something because he just he went

1429
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 3: in so confident about their ability and the fact that

1430
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 3: they were going to win. Can't believe it. But I

1431
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 3: think there is a bigger discussion happening right now about

1432
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 3: so there.

1433
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the epilogue. You talk about that one of

1434
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,519
Speaker 1: the lessons learned? And what do you I mean as

1435
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 1: is independent? You know, look, you have insight. That's next level.

1436
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like like I'm you're two psychologists

1437
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 1: or something, and you know more about us than we

1438
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 1: know about ourselves. You certainly know everyone's opinion about ourselves,

1439
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: which I can't even handle. That's another I actually have

1440
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 1: to go to therapy for all of that. And you

1441
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 1: know that's why you every day.

1442
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 2: If you think we cut the newsomb chapter, yeah.

1443
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: No, I've my name's barely mentioned. So it's thank you

1444
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 1: by the way for that. Otherwise I wouldn't have you on.

1445
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: But but what are the lessons learned? I mean, honestly,

1446
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 1: when you look at this, do you I mean the

1447
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:55,760
Speaker 1: Democratic Party right now? I've had strong opinions about where

1448
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:57,720
Speaker 1: I think our party is right now in terms of

1449
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,839
Speaker 1: just truth and trust. The sense that we aren't being truthful,

1450
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 1: that's a perception that we were gas lighting the American people.

1451
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 1: They don't trust us on issues and policies and the

1452
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,439
Speaker 1: ability to deliver. And if you're not winning on truth

1453
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 1: and trust, that's a brand that, as I've said, and

1454
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of blowback for, is a bit

1455
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,640
Speaker 1: toxic at the moment. At the moment, But what do

1456
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: you think this moment represents And do you think it's

1457
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: important for folks like me that are current public servants

1458
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: that represent portions of the Democratic Party to really take

1459
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: this book and read it and reread it and take

1460
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: what lessons from it.

1461
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we write these books for people to

1462
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 3: gain knowledge about what happened, but it's also a playbook

1463
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 3: about going forward and what Democrats and Republicans can learn.

1464
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 3: And one of the things I think they think is that,

1465
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, there needs to be some accountability,

1466
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 3: right like, someone either President Biden or someone close to him,

1467
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:54,879
Speaker 3: has to come out and say, look, this is what happened,

1468
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:59,600
Speaker 3: because the Democratic Party can't move forward until people address

1469
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 3: it has actually happened. And voters, to your point, don't

1470
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 3: trust the Democratic Party right now. I mean, I think

1471
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 3: a lot of people think that the Republican Party obviously

1472
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 3: is gaslighting the American people right now too. But let's

1473
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 3: have a discussion about what happened in this past election,

1474
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 3: and then there needs to be some accountability on where

1475
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 3: the party goes from here and speaking to voters and

1476
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 3: actually connecting to voters. So many of these people who've

1477
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 3: supported Trump used to be professional Democrats, I know, and

1478
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 3: yet they lost their way.

1479
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:34,720
Speaker 1: Look, I think it's fundamentally one of the reasons I'm

1480
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:37,639
Speaker 1: doing this podcast is that I'm concerned that we're taking

1481
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 1: the wrong lessons or not even absorbing any lesson from

1482
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 1: these elections. Concluding, by the way, just the anomaly that

1483
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 1: was a COVID election. It's one thing to take away

1484
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 1: the wrong lessons in a mid term. It's another to

1485
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: look at these general elections and not necessarily absorb a

1486
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: deeper understanding of what played an outsize role and what

1487
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,680
Speaker 1: didn't structurally and organizationally.

1488
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 2: So that's episode two of this podcast. We'll talk about

1489
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 2: our twenty twenty book Lucky, that was largely ignored that

1490
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 2: did not sell as well as this one has.

1491
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:10,600
Speaker 1: Which is the point you were making that it was

1492
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 1: a lucky outcome.

1493
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 2: Right, There was a pandemic in the middle of that election,

1494
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 2: and the president of the United States went out President

1495
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 2: Trump to a podium and said things that were untrue,

1496
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 2: that were wild, that underestimated the physical, you know, the

1497
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 2: psychological and physical toll of the disease, and undermined himself

1498
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 2: a lot, while Joe Biden was the way Republicans would say,

1499
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:34,519
Speaker 2: is hiding in his basement, but largely was off the

1500
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 2: campaign trail, right, and then he wins that election by

1501
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,839
Speaker 2: a very narrow margin. And I think the Democratic response

1502
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 2: to it was we crushed Trump. He's gone. And the

1503
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:47,719
Speaker 2: Trump response was, they barely beat me, and I'm coming back.

1504
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,800
Speaker 2: And so, you know, I think that when you say

1505
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 2: that Democrats have lost trust, it's not just that they've

1506
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 2: lost the trust of Republicans and independence. If you look

1507
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 2: at the polling, they've lost the trust of a lot

1508
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 2: of Democrats too. Yeah, And the first thing for any

1509
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 2: party is to kind of rebuild its trust among its

1510
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 2: own and then sort of branch out. And I mean,

1511
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 2: I'm curious to see what the twenty twenty eight candidates do,

1512
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 2: and maybe you will shed some light on this or

1513
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 2: know some people who might what they're going to do

1514
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,719
Speaker 2: to modernize the Democratic argument for what the country should

1515
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:19,639
Speaker 2: look like five years from that, ten years from now.

1516
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 2: What are you doing with entitlement programs? What are you

1517
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 2: doing with taxation? What are the new technologies and how

1518
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 2: do they affect us? You know, we haven't seen that yet.

1519
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:30,519
Speaker 1: No, we haven't, and we I think what Ezra Clin

1520
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 1: did you know his book abund It's interesting sort of

1521
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, there was a very self it's a very

1522
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:38,759
Speaker 1: not self critical, but it is a very critical look

1523
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 1: at sort of progressive governance and accountability that also needs

1524
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: to be, you know, well laid at the hands of

1525
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:49,600
Speaker 1: all of us in these quote unquote blue states and

1526
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: the ability to deliver big things in a way that's timely, inefficient. Look,

1527
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 1: this book is timely, a remarkably efficient use of two

1528
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three plus pages. Uh. It is a

1529
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:05,520
Speaker 1: great read. And I encourage anyone whether you like politics,

1530
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: don't like politics, but you're just interested or want to

1531
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 1: know what world we're living in the context of the

1532
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:13,960
Speaker 1: political life. Uh and and leanings. Uh, this is a

1533
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 1: must read. Fight Amy, thank you for being here.

1534
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 3: We have one question for you.

1535
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 1: I refuse to answer. What is it? What?

1536
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 3: What lesson would you take away from this election?

1537
01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:25,519
Speaker 2: No?

1538
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 1: I mean I think the lesson is we need to

1539
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,639
Speaker 1: have frank and honest conversations, and there's no space for that.

1540
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: And so I have a tactical point, and but I

1541
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, look I one of the things that you know,

1542
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 1: just what are we done?

1543
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 3: We're not done?

1544
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 2: People want to hear. I thought.

1545
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,639
Speaker 1: I hosted the Democratic Governors Association for our winter event

1546
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, not an in Diamond. These are amazing governors.

1547
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: It's a great organization and it's played it outside wall,

1548
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 1: saving me in my recall campaign. I was so eager

1549
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 1: to have this conversation. What the hell just happened? The

1550
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: entire three days was fundraising, and all of us as

1551
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:14,880
Speaker 1: governor's sort of desperate to find time to start to

1552
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:18,599
Speaker 1: have an honest, reflective conversation. And you have some of

1553
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 1: those twenty eight candidates in that mix you had this year.

1554
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,599
Speaker 1: There you had Pritzker, There, you have Whitmer. There by

1555
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 1: the way, there's five or six others likely to run,

1556
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: and all of them had their own unique experience on

1557
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,760
Speaker 1: the road and stress tested messages, heard that feedback. We

1558
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:37,840
Speaker 1: have not had that conversation. I was so pleased to

1559
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 1: have Tim here, and he was the only exception unsurprisingly

1560
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 1: because he could regale us to a little bit of

1561
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 1: the inside of being out on the campaign trail, on

1562
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 1: what it was like and how exhilarating it was for him,

1563
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 1: which I also loved to that he loved being out there.

1564
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 1: That was absorbing. I think to all of us, there's

1565
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: a joy, and he felt that joy and that energy,

1566
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:59,760
Speaker 1: and I think that was the disconnect and so understanding

1567
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 1: that minding that gap between performance and perception. Where we

1568
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,760
Speaker 1: are and where we're going, where the American people are,

1569
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: and where we are as a party. What is our party?

1570
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 1: Who is who are leaders you describe? Obama? Clinton? Is

1571
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:18,240
Speaker 1: it Pelosi? Is it Schumer? Is it Jeffries? Who is

1572
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: there a party? Is it the d n C? Is

1573
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 1: it Martin? All of that we need to work our

1574
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 1: way through.

1575
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:24,120
Speaker 3: Thank you.