WEBVTT - Inside Musk's Plans for Mars, What's Going On with Tesla and xAI 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.800 I'm just like, would like to not be dead when 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.720 by the time we go to Mars. That's my aspiration here. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.360 So if it's taking us eighteen years just to get 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.880 ready to do the first people to orbit, we've better 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.200 improve our rate of innovation or you know, based on 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.240 past trends, I am definitely going to be dead before 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:23.200 from ours. 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.840 Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.160 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.000 controlled by one man. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.360 Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.200 He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:39.000 it will be different. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:42.000 He'll vote Republican. There is a reason the US government 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:43.160 is so reliant on him. 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.280 Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.320 Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.640 Welcome to Elan Ing Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Musk. It's Tuesday, 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.920 September tenth. I'm your host, David Popadopolis. Today we're going 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.680 to talk about a report that Elon is apparently planning 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:15.920 a deal between Xai and Tesla, wherein the carmaker will 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:20.080 get access to some of Xai's technology and resources and 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:26.240 Xai will get lots of cash that it very desperately needs. Now, 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.720 it's not the first time that the boundaries between Elon's 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.440 companies have been blurred, and it most certainly won't be 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.720 the last. We're going to dive into the ramifications of 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.400 all that, and then we're gonna be taken to Mars 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.160 by our co host Dana Hall and New York Times 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.840 reporter Kirsten grind who will talk all about Musk's grand 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.520 interplanetary dreams. So we're gonna get right into it with 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:55.559 our regulars. Dana, Hello, Hey David and Max Schafkin. Max, Hey, David, 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:01.920 how you guys doing so okay? So Dana, tell us 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.440 a bit about this deal that Tesla is apparently striking 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.560 with Xai, as reported by our colleagues over at the 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:11.400 Wall Street Journal. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.120 Well, to be clear, I don't think there's a deal yet. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.120 So over the weekend, The Wall Street Journal reported that 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.800 x dot Ai, which is one of Elon's six companies, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.359 the newest. The startup, discussed a deal where it would 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.840 get revenue from Tesla and it would help develop features 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.079 for Tesla, like a serie voice assistant for the cars 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:38.600 and maybe the software for optimists the robot, and the 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:40.600 story kind of read to me like someone had gotten 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.120 hold of a pitch deck to x dot ai and 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.679 that this was a pitch to x dot ai investors. 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.440 But then Musk like kind of refuted the story in 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.000 part and said, you know, we don't need to license 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.679 the software, and like, yeah, my company has all talked 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:56.440 to each other, but there's not really like a deal 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.080 in place. So it's hard to know exactly. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:04.760 What's going on as that the journal is quote talking nonsense. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.440 But to your point, it does seem like the journal 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.120 sourcing is pretty good here. So Tesla is gonna maybe 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.320 strike a deal with XII to help develop full self 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.480 driving and according to the piece, it could even be 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.800 a fifty to fifty revenue split between Tesla and XAI. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.120 Seems a little generous for XAI. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.520 I mean, it seems wild. The whole thing here is 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.720 that self driving is going to be this huge revenue 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:38.160 generator for Tesla. Tesla has been spending and has said 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.480 it continues is going to spend you know, huge sums 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.280 of money that you know, building data centers and hiring 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.400 software developers, and the idea that the company would give 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.720 you know, half of what is projected to be. Now 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.080 you can quibble with those projections, or more than quibble, 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.640 you know, like a huge revenue stream. It's it's nuts. 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.800 It's going to be read at least by some investors, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.600 the grumpy Tesla investors, as a bailout. 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.280 Or if not a bailout, at least a means to 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.680 help x AI, you know, make the kind of investments 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.400 it needs to make. AI is a very capital intensive industry, 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:13.760 is it not. 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.560 If we take the journals reporting seriously, which I do. 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.559 This is actually the second sort of way that Elon 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.440 Musk has floated, sharing revenue from Tesla, which has a 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.119 ton of cash back to x dot Ai, which needs 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.080 cash because, as you say, you know, buying these GPUs, 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.080 these incredibly expensive graphics chips which are necessary to train 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.880 AI algorithms, costs a lot of money. And right now 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.240 there's no revenue. X AI has no revenue. 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:44.480 Cranking out revenue. 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.360 I mean they're they're including this as a feature for Twitter, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.480 you know, Twitter premium subscribers. I don't know how important 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:54.840 it is. I don't know what percentage of Twitter premium 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.680 subscribers are there because of GROC. I know, our our 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.920 producer Magnus definitely is, but I think I don't there 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:02.599 are questions. 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.880 I don't know that that's a huge revenue stream. But 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.600 Dana that thought that this, you know, reeks a bit 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.680 of a bailout of some sorts, or certainly Musk's the 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.160 cash cow of his empire, which is Tesla helping a 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.640 weaker part of the constellation. It brings back to mind 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.640 for me, at least, I think he plunked down, or 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.880 Tesla punk down two point six billion dollars into Solar City, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.440 which at the time was struggling. And I don't know. 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.440 You tell me how big a part of Tesla's business 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.000 today is the solar business. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.920 Well, the solar business is pretty minuscule. The big driver 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.240 of the energy part of the business is the megapack 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.480 and selling massive batteries to like utilities. But to be clear, 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.520 Solar City was always part of the constellation. Is Musk 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.919 found Yeah, Musk founded the company with his cousins. His 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.479 cousins nominally ran it, but let's be honest, Musk was 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.520 the chairman of the board, the largest shareholder, and when 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.480 he bought them it was because he was bailing out himself. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.520 And the same kind of crew of people that have 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.520 been on all of Elon's boards were also on the 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.880 Tesla City board. So it was a bailout of himself 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.880 and he sort of made, you know, made this big 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.039 thing of showing off the solar roof as he was 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.320 trying to get the deal approved. But like Musk has 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.840 floated a Tesla AI tie up before, Like Max, I 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:25.520 don't I forget if it was a poll or if 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.159 it was just like a just asking question, should I 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.680 should I go to the Tesla board and ask them 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.920 to invest five billion dollars in ex dot AI And 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.320 like it sounds like the board. I'm so, I'm sure 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.520 there have been board meetings all summer about this, and 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:42.839 maybe this pitch deck is like we just don't know 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.800 what form it is yet. But I think the journal, 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.480 I mean I take the journal story really seriously and 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.320 it's interesting always. It's always interesting to me, Like when 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:56.080 Musk chooses to push back on stories, it's there's usually 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.000 a threat, there's usually truth there, and he's very strety. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:00.760 Well. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:02.240 Also he will deny. 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:07.480 He will issue these sweeping, extremely muscular denials talk and 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.480 when it comes down to it, the truth is it 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.600 is a denial, but it's maybe it isn't a licensing deal, 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.760 you know, like like he's acting like the journal is 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.200 completely off base. It's very possible that the journals that 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.520 the journal sources have one or two details wrong, but 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.440 the gist of the story is correct. 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.440 Max, I want to go back and linger for a 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.840 second here on this thought about the this you know, 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:34.480 inter empire self dealing in the Musk universe. The whole 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.000 thing is just seems a little dangerous. 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.960 There are already lawsuits over Like I said, what what 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:42.520 makes this so weird? The idea that Tesla would pay 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.400 Xai money is that there are already lawsuits from Tesla 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.320 shareholders suggesting that there's a problem that these that the 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.400 the fact that x Ai is, you know, poaching employees 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.640 or hiring at least Tesla employees, you know, that it's 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:02.240 already essentially draining value out of this publicly traded company that, yes, 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.640 Elon Musk controls, Yes he has a huge amount of equity, 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.120 but he's not the majority shareholder. They are public, there 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.200 are pension funds and so on, and they're and the 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:14.120 contention would be that they're basically pulling money out of 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.520 this publicly traded concern, but the most you know, valuable 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.600 company in Elon Musks Empire and putting it into this 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:25.640 kind of fatish, you know AI play that has really 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.240 sketchy prospects, a lot of talk, but not a ton 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.720 of actual progress. And it's one that you know, Elon 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.800 Musk essentially has an enormous equity stake, So it's it 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.319 really feels, it feels super questionable from a sort of conventional, 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.240 you know, good governance perspective, which of course is not 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:43.480 a perspective Elon cares about. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.240 And I'm also curious. I mean, xtut ai is pretty small. 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:47.960 I think the last time we talked to our colleague 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:53.160 Kurt Wagner, they've got maybe like thirty five employees. Maybe 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.320 they've grown a little bit since then, but xi X 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.320 dot ai is tiny. So like, where are they located? 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.080 Are these employees working out of like Tesla office in 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.960 Palo Alto. I'm not sure where these people are, heused, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.000 but I would not be surprised if they've got like 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.439 a corner of an office somewhere. 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.559 That's like, well, that's amazing. By the way, if they 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.840 have as few as thirty five employees according to that journal, story. 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.640 The company also has evaluation of twenty four billion dollars, 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.480 so you're almost about a billion evaluation of a billion 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.640 dollars per employee. That's pretty good. Max. Back to your 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.880 point on the they're the governance issue, and then there's 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.840 also just the issue of is it just good business 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.880 for these individual companies? Right in a world in which 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.160 must own one hundred percent of Tesla and one hundred 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.920 percent of Xai, what he can do whatever the hell 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.800 he wants, and if he wants to move resources around 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.160 from one to the other, it's fine. But that, as 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.160 you're saying, is not the case here. So when you 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.240 are draining resources from one company, Tesla, that is publicly 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.320 traded and has all sorts of shareholders all over the world, yeah, 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:01.959 you are setting yourself up for eventually legal trouble. And 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.880 you know, as you said, there already is a lawsuit 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.720 that's been filed, and I suspect if this deal really 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.880 does go through those you know, those legal that legal 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.160 peril he is in is only going to be amped up. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:15.520 There. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.400 Also, then is just the issue of is it just 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.360 good business right it? Is it good business for Tesla, 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.800 and is it good business for Xai? So I ask you, Dana, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.440 what would be the glass half full positive take on 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.480 this transaction for the companies, the client shareholders in Elon 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:33.800 just that there's value. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.840 Add that, you know, Tesla will be able to realize 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.600 it's full self driving dreams and this like sort of 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.080 the cabin experience faster if they somehow partner with x 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.560 dot ai to like use their their Grock training to 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:48.800 I don't know, help help the cars in some way, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.720 but I don't fully I don't fully get it, but 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.160 I think that you have to remember that investors who 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.400 are all in on Musk, and there are several like 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.120 Ron Baron who are like long time I'm Tesla's shareholders. 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.040 They're in it because he is in so many industries 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.640 and they see this as a positive and they're not 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.520 upset about this. They actually are for it. And I 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.720 would not be surprised if the board gave him the 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.120 green light and if shareholders approved it, if it actually 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.040 even went to a shareholder vote. You know, Musk has 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.880 been kind of shuffling the cards around among his companies 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.960 and his empire like the entire time he's been in business, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.360 and a lot of people have gotten very wealthy because 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.400 of that, and so I just would push back against 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.240 this idea that, oh, this is another legal fiasco in peril. 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.040 I think that he has support. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.280 I mean I think there are two different things. There's 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.080 one support from the board is one thing. Support from 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.199 all of your shareholders. I mean again, we already do 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.120 have a lawsuit that's been filed. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.280 Yeah, But so what like, I'm sorry, there are like 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.160 there are lawyers who will file a lawsuit and they 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.360 will find a pension fund to be the nominal plainiff. 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.959 They sue Elon all the time. It's a serious lawsuit. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:58.960 But I'm saying, like, you've got to look at the 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:03.280 shareholder base of of Tesla and these longtime shareholders, these 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.600 are the same people who just approved his pay package. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.520 Yet again, like he has support from a significant number 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:09.200 of shareholders. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.520 What Dan is saying is like they're going to take 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.480 this loss and put in a big stack of other 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.959 lawsuits and ignore it. Yeah, And also that yes, there 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.079 are shareholders are mad, and those shareholders of course can 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:25.200 bring litigation. But the majority of Tesla's shareholders and we 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.719 know this because there was this vote on pay if 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.640 you say to them, it is outrageous that Elon Musk 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.040 is running all of these companies like one giant conglomerate, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.559 Like how you know, how could he? They're going to say, yeah, 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.800 he is, and we love it. That's the That is 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.160 a lot of the I mean, and I think that 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.520 the business case there is very shaky. The business case 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.360 if you really, if you ask them what it is, 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.719 it's basically like Elon Musk is a genius. This is 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.720 how he wants to do it. Therefore it must be great. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.200 I don't think the logic there is super solid, but 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.480 I think the idea that shareholders for the most part 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.000 are on board with this is true. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:00.719 What's the stock done year to date? 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.040 It's it's I mean, I can't remember year to date, 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.080 but it hasn't been performed particularly well recently. 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:08.640 No, So I guess my point to the two of 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.439 you would be that's fine. That's the universe, right, those 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.160 who are part of that cult of Elon and whatever 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.480 he does, we say amen, and we love the stock 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.160 and we're going to own the stock from that's a 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.319 shrinking universe, I mean, And they are indeed more passionate 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.640 and more fanatical than ever. But you know, the tape 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:32.360 don't lie, and the stock from its peak is way down. 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.640 I think that some of these shareholders who are approving 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.480 these things and we're sort of going along with it, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.160 are doing so and we talked about this with the 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.920 pay package, partly because they feel that if they don't 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.640 that even even a sort of shaky Tesla stock right 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.440 now is overvalued relative to what the actual business is, 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.520 the actual car company business. Again, I'm not saying it 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.040 makes sense to me. I'm not saying it's logical. But 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.920 you got to keep Elon Musk happy. We've sort of 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.120 bet on Elon Musk. We're all in on Elon Musk. 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.120 The other thing is, I will say, like if you 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.720 if you squint, you got to come up with a 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.360 business case. I think the business case is something like 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.560 these large language models are a genuine breakthrough. They are 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.680 changing everything. You know, open AI could it could be 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:20.680 a god. It could, it could. It could change the 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:25.080 world forever. And we Tesla will need to partner if 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.280 we want to be a state of the art AI company, 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.440 we will need a large language model. Hey look, here's 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.400 a larger language model. And luckily there are some synergies 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.880 because because our CEO happens to know some of the 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.720 people who work there, and so again I don't find 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.800 it super persuasive, but I think some version of that 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:43.160 is probably what they're going to tell. 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.640 Themselves and have happened. 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.400 The last thing. Startups lie all the time, like startups 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.640 that are like pitching investors. Dana hinted that this could 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.240 have come in an investor pitch. They don't always tell 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.640 like the most honest story, like they're going to present 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.160 the like best case scenario. So like, just because some 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.040 people are saying to some investors there's going to be 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.960 a fifty to fifty split, doesn't necessarily mean that is 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:08.000 the real number. 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.280 You're saying it's going to be like ninety five to five. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:12.800 I'm saying that would be closer to my bed. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.600 Okay, very good. We will come back to this one. Max. 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.920 We're gonna say goodbye to you. I'm done with you 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.520 for today. I've had enough. Okay, fair enough, thanks for 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:22.960 joining me. 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:24.200 My pleasure. 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.800 And Dana on the interconnectedness of everything in the Elon universe, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.040 there was a piece done recently by The New York 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.120 Times as Kirsten grind in which she lays out fairly 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:46.240 persuasively that ultimately every single thing or the vast bulk 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.280 of the things that the companies in Musk's empire do 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.520 are all about getting and colonizing Mars. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.160 So there are like few byelines that kind of always 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.440 give me anxiety when I see them, And one of 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.520 them is Kirstin's. She's just like this great investigative reporter. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.520 She's worked at the Wall Street Journal, she recently joined 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.680 the New York Times, and you know, the Musk news 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.800 cycle moves so fast and furious. And in July she 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.800 just did this big feature where she really drilled into like, Okay, 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.880 what exactly are the Mars colony plans? Forget about the 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:18.920 rocket that's going to take them there, like what are 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.240 the plans for the civilization? And she just got some 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.200 great details and it was a fascinating read. And I'd 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.240 never met or talked to Kirsten before, but it was 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.760 super fascinating to just chat with her about reporting and 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:31.720 what it's like to report on Elon's companies and what 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:32.440 she found out. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.760 Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I think our listeners 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:36.440 are going to love it. 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:37.600 My well, thank you. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.960 My big overarching takeaway was life on Mars seems a 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.880 little bleak. I got no oxygen in lots of impossible burghers. 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.040 Sounds like a hoot. Let's listen to the interview. 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.680 Thank you so much for joining us. 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:55.800 Oh, thanks so much for having me. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.920 So Elon Musk has always been obsessed with colonizing Mar 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.600 The whole point of SpaceX is to make life multiplanetary. 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.240 But your tremendous July feature in the New York Times 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.919 really makes it clear that there's been a shift towards 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.720 civilization planning. So start from the beginning, like, how did 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.760 you kind of get onto this particular rich and very 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:19.960 illuminating vein of reporting. 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.840 Yeah, thanks Dana. So I have for a long time 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.280 wanted to look deep into these Mars plans because, as 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.240 you know, it's something that Elon is always talking about 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.720 on X and speeches all of this. So I wanted 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.120 to understand two things, like, first of all, how legit 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.879 is this? And then second of all, we've heard a 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.959 lot obviously about SpaceX sending rockets into space. That I 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.560 wanted to know, is there actually plans for the city 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.320 that we are allegedly all going to be living in? 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.399 And sure enough I found out, yes, they are quietly 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.240 designing and kind of testing some of these city plans 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.840 at SpaceX as we speak. The thing is they can't 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.080 really talk about it the way they talk about the 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:15.359 rockets and starships for a variety of reasons, but one 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.840 of the biggest ones is that they have a contract 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:22.240 with NASA, and under that contract, Elon has to get to. 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:23.160 The Moon first. 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.159 So to kind of say, oh, we're spending all this 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.040 time like designing cities. 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:29.840 That's not going to work. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.119 Yeah, and what exactly did you learn about the city 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.320 Because he's talked about the need to like terraform Mars 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.600 for years, right, and like I always had this image 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:42.359 that they were going to like I don't know, I 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.960 was sort of imagining like terraniums or like bubbles, and 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.280 then I was trying to figure out, like how are 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.800 they going to breathe up they're and then terraforming Mars 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.919 and Mars being this fixer up of a planet is 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.919 something that Musk has consistently said for two decades. But 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.040 it sounds like you got like deeper into actual designs 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.680 and engineering for like what this civilization is going to 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:03.080 look like. 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.480 So what I did? I approached it two ways. First 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.760 of all, I did go back and listen to an 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.720 enormous number of I won't even bore you with how 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:19.240 many podcasts, appearances, X posts that he's written about. 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:19.840 There's a lot. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.920 See, yeah's true. 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.639 Yes, so I have heard some of the terraforming stuff 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.440 as well. Yes, But what I really wanted to do 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.160 is talk to some of these SpaceX guys, right, which, 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.120 as you know, is incredibly hard to do because it's 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.159 very hard speaking to anyone at any of the Elon's 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.520 companies or in his universe. But so what we spoke 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.359 about the most when I reached people close to the 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:51.120 company was I was really drilling down specifically on let's 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.359 not talk about what the plan might be for terraforming 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.560 and forty years or something like, what does he think 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.480 is going to happen soon soon? 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:01.440 In quotes? 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.960 Right, and so there's time and there's Elon time. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.199 Exactly well, and we should definitely talk about that. But 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.879 what I learned was more about kind of the city 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:17.879 plans that workers at SpaceX are kind of constantly updating 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.880 based on ideas and plans coming in from throughout the 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:27.400 universe of SpaceX, and so they have kind of an 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.199 idea for how the cities will be laid out with 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.400 a giant dome and domes around them. But what they're 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.400 focusing on now is kind of how they would get 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.800 food up there, or how they would handle medical emergencies 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.439 or pro create, And so there's so many more details 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.280 like I wish I had, but I don't, except to 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.560 say this is kind of what they're like looking at 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:52.119 right now. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:52.879 So one of the. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.520 Great details in your story is this idea of Starship 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.680 as a kind of Noah's Arc, carrying plants and animals 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.520 on this initial voyage, and then they get there, the 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.960