1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm just like, would like to not be dead when 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: by the time we go to Mars. That's my aspiration here. 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: So if it's taking us eighteen years just to get 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: ready to do the first people to orbit, we've better 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: improve our rate of innovation or you know, based on 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: past trends, I am definitely going to be dead before 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: from ours. 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 3: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 3: controlled by one man. 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 2: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 12 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 3: He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 13 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 3: it will be different. 14 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 4: He'll vote Republican. There is a reason the US government 15 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 4: is so reliant on him. 16 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 17 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 5: Welcome to Elan Ing Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Musk. It's Tuesday, 19 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 5: September tenth. I'm your host, David Popadopolis. Today we're going 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 5: to talk about a report that Elon is apparently planning 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 5: a deal between Xai and Tesla, wherein the carmaker will 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 5: get access to some of Xai's technology and resources and 23 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 5: Xai will get lots of cash that it very desperately needs. Now, 24 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 5: it's not the first time that the boundaries between Elon's 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 5: companies have been blurred, and it most certainly won't be 26 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 5: the last. We're going to dive into the ramifications of 27 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 5: all that, and then we're gonna be taken to Mars 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 5: by our co host Dana Hall and New York Times 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 5: reporter Kirsten grind who will talk all about Musk's grand 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 5: interplanetary dreams. So we're gonna get right into it with 31 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 5: our regulars. Dana, Hello, Hey David and Max Schafkin. Max, Hey, David, 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 5: how you guys doing so okay? So Dana, tell us 33 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 5: a bit about this deal that Tesla is apparently striking 34 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 5: with Xai, as reported by our colleagues over at the 35 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 5: Wall Street Journal. 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 6: Well, to be clear, I don't think there's a deal yet. 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 6: So over the weekend, The Wall Street Journal reported that 38 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 6: x dot Ai, which is one of Elon's six companies, 39 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 6: the newest. The startup, discussed a deal where it would 40 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 6: get revenue from Tesla and it would help develop features 41 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 6: for Tesla, like a serie voice assistant for the cars 42 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 6: and maybe the software for optimists the robot, and the 43 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 6: story kind of read to me like someone had gotten 44 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 6: hold of a pitch deck to x dot ai and 45 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 6: that this was a pitch to x dot ai investors. 46 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 6: But then Musk like kind of refuted the story in 47 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 6: part and said, you know, we don't need to license 48 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 6: the software, and like, yeah, my company has all talked 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 6: to each other, but there's not really like a deal 50 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 6: in place. So it's hard to know exactly. 51 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 5: What's going on as that the journal is quote talking nonsense. 52 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 5: But to your point, it does seem like the journal 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 5: sourcing is pretty good here. So Tesla is gonna maybe 54 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 5: strike a deal with XII to help develop full self 55 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 5: driving and according to the piece, it could even be 56 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 5: a fifty to fifty revenue split between Tesla and XAI. 57 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 5: Seems a little generous for XAI. 58 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: I mean, it seems wild. The whole thing here is 59 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: that self driving is going to be this huge revenue 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: generator for Tesla. Tesla has been spending and has said 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: it continues is going to spend you know, huge sums 62 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: of money that you know, building data centers and hiring 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: software developers, and the idea that the company would give 64 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: you know, half of what is projected to be. Now 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: you can quibble with those projections, or more than quibble, 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: you know, like a huge revenue stream. It's it's nuts. 67 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: It's going to be read at least by some investors, 68 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: the grumpy Tesla investors, as a bailout. 69 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 5: Or if not a bailout, at least a means to 70 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 5: help x AI, you know, make the kind of investments 71 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 5: it needs to make. AI is a very capital intensive industry, 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 5: is it not. 73 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: If we take the journals reporting seriously, which I do. 74 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,559 Speaker 2: This is actually the second sort of way that Elon 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: Musk has floated, sharing revenue from Tesla, which has a 76 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 2: ton of cash back to x dot Ai, which needs 77 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: cash because, as you say, you know, buying these GPUs, 78 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: these incredibly expensive graphics chips which are necessary to train 79 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: AI algorithms, costs a lot of money. And right now 80 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: there's no revenue. X AI has no revenue. 81 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 5: Cranking out revenue. 82 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: I mean they're they're including this as a feature for Twitter, 83 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: you know, Twitter premium subscribers. I don't know how important 84 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: it is. I don't know what percentage of Twitter premium 85 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: subscribers are there because of GROC. I know, our our 86 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: producer Magnus definitely is, but I think I don't there 87 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: are questions. 88 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 5: I don't know that that's a huge revenue stream. But 89 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 5: Dana that thought that this, you know, reeks a bit 90 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 5: of a bailout of some sorts, or certainly Musk's the 91 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 5: cash cow of his empire, which is Tesla helping a 92 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 5: weaker part of the constellation. It brings back to mind 93 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 5: for me, at least, I think he plunked down, or 94 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 5: Tesla punk down two point six billion dollars into Solar City, 95 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 5: which at the time was struggling. And I don't know. 96 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 5: You tell me how big a part of Tesla's business 97 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 5: today is the solar business. 98 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 6: Well, the solar business is pretty minuscule. The big driver 99 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 6: of the energy part of the business is the megapack 100 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 6: and selling massive batteries to like utilities. But to be clear, 101 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 6: Solar City was always part of the constellation. Is Musk 102 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 6: found Yeah, Musk founded the company with his cousins. His 103 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 6: cousins nominally ran it, but let's be honest, Musk was 104 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 6: the chairman of the board, the largest shareholder, and when 105 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 6: he bought them it was because he was bailing out himself. 106 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 6: And the same kind of crew of people that have 107 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 6: been on all of Elon's boards were also on the 108 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 6: Tesla City board. So it was a bailout of himself 109 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 6: and he sort of made, you know, made this big 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 6: thing of showing off the solar roof as he was 111 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 6: trying to get the deal approved. But like Musk has 112 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 6: floated a Tesla AI tie up before, Like Max, I 113 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 6: don't I forget if it was a poll or if 114 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 6: it was just like a just asking question, should I 115 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 6: should I go to the Tesla board and ask them 116 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 6: to invest five billion dollars in ex dot AI And 117 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 6: like it sounds like the board. I'm so, I'm sure 118 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 6: there have been board meetings all summer about this, and 119 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 6: maybe this pitch deck is like we just don't know 120 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 6: what form it is yet. But I think the journal, 121 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 6: I mean I take the journal story really seriously and 122 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 6: it's interesting always. It's always interesting to me, Like when 123 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 6: Musk chooses to push back on stories, it's there's usually 124 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 6: a threat, there's usually truth there, and he's very strety. 125 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 4: Well. 126 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 5: Also he will deny. 127 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: He will issue these sweeping, extremely muscular denials talk and 128 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: when it comes down to it, the truth is it 129 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: is a denial, but it's maybe it isn't a licensing deal, 130 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: you know, like like he's acting like the journal is 131 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: completely off base. It's very possible that the journals that 132 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: the journal sources have one or two details wrong, but 133 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: the gist of the story is correct. 134 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 5: Max, I want to go back and linger for a 135 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 5: second here on this thought about the this you know, 136 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 5: inter empire self dealing in the Musk universe. The whole 137 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 5: thing is just seems a little dangerous. 138 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: There are already lawsuits over Like I said, what what 139 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: makes this so weird? The idea that Tesla would pay 140 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: Xai money is that there are already lawsuits from Tesla 141 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: shareholders suggesting that there's a problem that these that the 142 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: the fact that x Ai is, you know, poaching employees 143 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: or hiring at least Tesla employees, you know, that it's 144 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: already essentially draining value out of this publicly traded company that, yes, 145 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: Elon Musk controls, Yes he has a huge amount of equity, 146 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: but he's not the majority shareholder. They are public, there 147 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: are pension funds and so on, and they're and the 148 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: contention would be that they're basically pulling money out of 149 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: this publicly traded concern, but the most you know, valuable 150 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: company in Elon Musks Empire and putting it into this 151 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: kind of fatish, you know AI play that has really 152 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: sketchy prospects, a lot of talk, but not a ton 153 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: of actual progress. And it's one that you know, Elon 154 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: Musk essentially has an enormous equity stake, So it's it 155 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 2: really feels, it feels super questionable from a sort of conventional, 156 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: you know, good governance perspective, which of course is not 157 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: a perspective Elon cares about. 158 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 6: And I'm also curious. I mean, xtut ai is pretty small. 159 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 6: I think the last time we talked to our colleague 160 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 6: Kurt Wagner, they've got maybe like thirty five employees. Maybe 161 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 6: they've grown a little bit since then, but xi X 162 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 6: dot ai is tiny. So like, where are they located? 163 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 6: Are these employees working out of like Tesla office in 164 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 6: Palo Alto. I'm not sure where these people are, heused, 165 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 6: but I would not be surprised if they've got like 166 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 6: a corner of an office somewhere. 167 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 5: That's like, well, that's amazing. By the way, if they 168 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 5: have as few as thirty five employees according to that journal, story. 169 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 5: The company also has evaluation of twenty four billion dollars, 170 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 5: so you're almost about a billion evaluation of a billion 171 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 5: dollars per employee. That's pretty good. Max. Back to your 172 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 5: point on the they're the governance issue, and then there's 173 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 5: also just the issue of is it just good business 174 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 5: for these individual companies? Right in a world in which 175 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 5: must own one hundred percent of Tesla and one hundred 176 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 5: percent of Xai, what he can do whatever the hell 177 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 5: he wants, and if he wants to move resources around 178 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 5: from one to the other, it's fine. But that, as 179 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 5: you're saying, is not the case here. So when you 180 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 5: are draining resources from one company, Tesla, that is publicly 181 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 5: traded and has all sorts of shareholders all over the world, yeah, 182 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 5: you are setting yourself up for eventually legal trouble. And 183 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 5: you know, as you said, there already is a lawsuit 184 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 5: that's been filed, and I suspect if this deal really 185 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 5: does go through those you know, those legal that legal 186 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 5: peril he is in is only going to be amped up. 187 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: There. 188 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 5: Also, then is just the issue of is it just 189 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 5: good business right it? Is it good business for Tesla, 190 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 5: and is it good business for Xai? So I ask you, Dana, 191 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 5: what would be the glass half full positive take on 192 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 5: this transaction for the companies, the client shareholders in Elon 193 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 5: just that there's value. 194 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 6: Add that, you know, Tesla will be able to realize 195 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 6: it's full self driving dreams and this like sort of 196 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 6: the cabin experience faster if they somehow partner with x 197 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 6: dot ai to like use their their Grock training to 198 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 6: I don't know, help help the cars in some way, 199 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 6: but I don't fully I don't fully get it, but 200 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 6: I think that you have to remember that investors who 201 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 6: are all in on Musk, and there are several like 202 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 6: Ron Baron who are like long time I'm Tesla's shareholders. 203 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 6: They're in it because he is in so many industries 204 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 6: and they see this as a positive and they're not 205 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 6: upset about this. They actually are for it. And I 206 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 6: would not be surprised if the board gave him the 207 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 6: green light and if shareholders approved it, if it actually 208 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 6: even went to a shareholder vote. You know, Musk has 209 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 6: been kind of shuffling the cards around among his companies 210 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 6: and his empire like the entire time he's been in business, 211 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 6: and a lot of people have gotten very wealthy because 212 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 6: of that, and so I just would push back against 213 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 6: this idea that, oh, this is another legal fiasco in peril. 214 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 6: I think that he has support. 215 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 5: I mean I think there are two different things. There's 216 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 5: one support from the board is one thing. Support from 217 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 5: all of your shareholders. I mean again, we already do 218 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 5: have a lawsuit that's been filed. 219 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, But so what like, I'm sorry, there are like 220 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 6: there are lawyers who will file a lawsuit and they 221 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 6: will find a pension fund to be the nominal plainiff. 222 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 6: They sue Elon all the time. It's a serious lawsuit. 223 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 6: But I'm saying, like, you've got to look at the 224 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 6: shareholder base of of Tesla and these longtime shareholders, these 225 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 6: are the same people who just approved his pay package. 226 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 6: Yet again, like he has support from a significant number 227 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 6: of shareholders. 228 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: What Dan is saying is like they're going to take 229 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: this loss and put in a big stack of other 230 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 2: lawsuits and ignore it. Yeah, And also that yes, there 231 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 2: are shareholders are mad, and those shareholders of course can 232 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: bring litigation. But the majority of Tesla's shareholders and we 233 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 2: know this because there was this vote on pay if 234 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: you say to them, it is outrageous that Elon Musk 235 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: is running all of these companies like one giant conglomerate, 236 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: Like how you know, how could he? They're going to say, yeah, 237 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: he is, and we love it. That's the That is 238 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: a lot of the I mean, and I think that 239 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: the business case there is very shaky. The business case 240 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: if you really, if you ask them what it is, 241 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 2: it's basically like Elon Musk is a genius. This is 242 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: how he wants to do it. Therefore it must be great. 243 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: I don't think the logic there is super solid, but 244 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: I think the idea that shareholders for the most part 245 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: are on board with this is true. 246 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 5: What's the stock done year to date? 247 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: It's it's I mean, I can't remember year to date, 248 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: but it hasn't been performed particularly well recently. 249 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 5: No, So I guess my point to the two of 250 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 5: you would be that's fine. That's the universe, right, those 251 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 5: who are part of that cult of Elon and whatever 252 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 5: he does, we say amen, and we love the stock 253 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 5: and we're going to own the stock from that's a 254 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 5: shrinking universe, I mean, And they are indeed more passionate 255 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 5: and more fanatical than ever. But you know, the tape 256 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 5: don't lie, and the stock from its peak is way down. 257 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: I think that some of these shareholders who are approving 258 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: these things and we're sort of going along with it, 259 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: are doing so and we talked about this with the 260 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: pay package, partly because they feel that if they don't 261 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: that even even a sort of shaky Tesla stock right 262 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: now is overvalued relative to what the actual business is, 263 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: the actual car company business. Again, I'm not saying it 264 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: makes sense to me. I'm not saying it's logical. But 265 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: you got to keep Elon Musk happy. We've sort of 266 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: bet on Elon Musk. We're all in on Elon Musk. 267 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: The other thing is, I will say, like if you 268 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: if you squint, you got to come up with a 269 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: business case. I think the business case is something like 270 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: these large language models are a genuine breakthrough. They are 271 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: changing everything. You know, open AI could it could be 272 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: a god. It could, it could. It could change the 273 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: world forever. And we Tesla will need to partner if 274 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: we want to be a state of the art AI company, 275 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: we will need a large language model. Hey look, here's 276 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: a larger language model. And luckily there are some synergies 277 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: because because our CEO happens to know some of the 278 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: people who work there, and so again I don't find 279 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: it super persuasive, but I think some version of that 280 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: is probably what they're going to tell. 281 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 5: Themselves and have happened. 282 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: The last thing. Startups lie all the time, like startups 283 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: that are like pitching investors. Dana hinted that this could 284 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: have come in an investor pitch. They don't always tell 285 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: like the most honest story, like they're going to present 286 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: the like best case scenario. So like, just because some 287 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: people are saying to some investors there's going to be 288 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: a fifty to fifty split, doesn't necessarily mean that is 289 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: the real number. 290 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 5: You're saying it's going to be like ninety five to five. 291 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: I'm saying that would be closer to my bed. 292 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 5: Okay, very good. We will come back to this one. Max. 293 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 5: We're gonna say goodbye to you. I'm done with you 294 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 5: for today. I've had enough. Okay, fair enough, thanks for 295 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 5: joining me. 296 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: My pleasure. 297 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 5: And Dana on the interconnectedness of everything in the Elon universe, 298 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 5: there was a piece done recently by The New York 299 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 5: Times as Kirsten grind in which she lays out fairly 300 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 5: persuasively that ultimately every single thing or the vast bulk 301 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 5: of the things that the companies in Musk's empire do 302 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 5: are all about getting and colonizing Mars. 303 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 6: So there are like few byelines that kind of always 304 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 6: give me anxiety when I see them, And one of 305 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 6: them is Kirstin's. She's just like this great investigative reporter. 306 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 6: She's worked at the Wall Street Journal, she recently joined 307 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 6: the New York Times, and you know, the Musk news 308 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 6: cycle moves so fast and furious. And in July she 309 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 6: just did this big feature where she really drilled into like, Okay, 310 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 6: what exactly are the Mars colony plans? Forget about the 311 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 6: rocket that's going to take them there, like what are 312 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 6: the plans for the civilization? And she just got some 313 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 6: great details and it was a fascinating read. And I'd 314 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 6: never met or talked to Kirsten before, but it was 315 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 6: super fascinating to just chat with her about reporting and 316 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 6: what it's like to report on Elon's companies and what 317 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 6: she found out. 318 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I think our listeners 319 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 5: are going to love it. 320 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 6: My well, thank you. 321 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 5: My big overarching takeaway was life on Mars seems a 322 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 5: little bleak. I got no oxygen in lots of impossible burghers. 323 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 5: Sounds like a hoot. Let's listen to the interview. 324 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 6: Thank you so much for joining us. 325 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 4: Oh, thanks so much for having me. 326 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 6: So Elon Musk has always been obsessed with colonizing Mar 327 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 6: The whole point of SpaceX is to make life multiplanetary. 328 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 6: But your tremendous July feature in the New York Times 329 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 6: really makes it clear that there's been a shift towards 330 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 6: civilization planning. So start from the beginning, like, how did 331 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 6: you kind of get onto this particular rich and very 332 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 6: illuminating vein of reporting. 333 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Dana. So I have for a long time 334 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: wanted to look deep into these Mars plans because, as 335 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 3: you know, it's something that Elon is always talking about 336 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 3: on X and speeches all of this. So I wanted 337 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 3: to understand two things, like, first of all, how legit 338 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 3: is this? And then second of all, we've heard a 339 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 3: lot obviously about SpaceX sending rockets into space. That I 340 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: wanted to know, is there actually plans for the city 341 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 3: that we are allegedly all going to be living in? 342 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 3: And sure enough I found out, yes, they are quietly 343 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: designing and kind of testing some of these city plans 344 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: at SpaceX as we speak. The thing is they can't 345 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 3: really talk about it the way they talk about the 346 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 3: rockets and starships for a variety of reasons, but one 347 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: of the biggest ones is that they have a contract 348 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: with NASA, and under that contract, Elon has to get to. 349 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 4: The Moon first. 350 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 3: So to kind of say, oh, we're spending all this 351 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: time like designing cities. 352 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 4: That's not going to work. 353 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 6: Yeah, and what exactly did you learn about the city 354 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 6: Because he's talked about the need to like terraform Mars 355 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 6: for years, right, and like I always had this image 356 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 6: that they were going to like I don't know, I 357 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 6: was sort of imagining like terraniums or like bubbles, and 358 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 6: then I was trying to figure out, like how are 359 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 6: they going to breathe up they're and then terraforming Mars 360 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 6: and Mars being this fixer up of a planet is 361 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 6: something that Musk has consistently said for two decades. But 362 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 6: it sounds like you got like deeper into actual designs 363 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 6: and engineering for like what this civilization is going to 364 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 6: look like. 365 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 3: So what I did? I approached it two ways. First 366 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 3: of all, I did go back and listen to an 367 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 3: enormous number of I won't even bore you with how 368 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: many podcasts, appearances, X posts that he's written about. 369 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 6: There's a lot. 370 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 4: See, yeah's true. 371 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 3: Yes, so I have heard some of the terraforming stuff 372 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 3: as well. Yes, But what I really wanted to do 373 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 3: is talk to some of these SpaceX guys, right, which, 374 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 3: as you know, is incredibly hard to do because it's 375 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 3: very hard speaking to anyone at any of the Elon's 376 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: companies or in his universe. But so what we spoke 377 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 3: about the most when I reached people close to the 378 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 3: company was I was really drilling down specifically on let's 379 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 3: not talk about what the plan might be for terraforming 380 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: and forty years or something like, what does he think 381 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 3: is going to happen soon soon? 382 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 4: In quotes? 383 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 6: Right, and so there's time and there's Elon time. 384 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 3: Exactly well, and we should definitely talk about that. But 385 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 3: what I learned was more about kind of the city 386 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 3: plans that workers at SpaceX are kind of constantly updating 387 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 3: based on ideas and plans coming in from throughout the 388 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 3: universe of SpaceX, and so they have kind of an 389 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 3: idea for how the cities will be laid out with 390 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 3: a giant dome and domes around them. But what they're 391 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 3: focusing on now is kind of how they would get 392 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 3: food up there, or how they would handle medical emergencies 393 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 3: or pro create, And so there's so many more details 394 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 3: like I wish I had, but I don't, except to 395 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 3: say this is kind of what they're like looking at 396 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 3: right now. 397 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 4: So one of the. 398 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 6: Great details in your story is this idea of Starship 399 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 6: as a kind of Noah's Arc, carrying plants and animals 400 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 6: on this initial voyage, and then they get there, the 401 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 6: residents build these greenhouses. And you wrote that SpaceX actually 402 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 6: has a partnership with Impossible Foods to provide, which is 403 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 6: this plant based alternative meat company, to provide the food 404 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 6: not just in SpaceX's corporate cafeterias, but to test the 405 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 6: products and maybe be like a protein source for Mars. 406 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 6: Like what else did you learn about the Mars colony 407 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 6: diet and how did you get on that great detail? 408 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 4: So I really wanted to understand. 409 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I kept thinking about this in terms of 410 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 3: if I was going to go to Mars with my family, 411 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: what would we be doing there? So I kept asking 412 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: about the food. To be honest, the food is one 413 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 3: where I think they have not spent as much time 414 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 3: on like they are thinking of like protein sources, like 415 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 3: impossible foods, and how they would kind of start these 416 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 3: series of greenhouses up there that we would all whoever 417 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 3: goes out there would be drawing from eventually. But I 418 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: just want to interject to say, like a lot of 419 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 3: this is still going to take an enormous amount of time. 420 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: I mean to get they would be bringing food and 421 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: seeds and all of this in Starship, but then once 422 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: you get to Mars, I mean, it's going to take 423 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 3: a decade or more to really have greenhouses that are 424 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 3: sustaining an entire population, right at least, that's what a 425 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 3: lot of the experts were saying to me. 426 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 6: Did you get the sense that any of this civilization 427 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 6: was going to be built underground because. 428 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 3: There is no Yes, the way I was kind of 429 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: envisioning it is we would all be in these kind 430 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: of smaller domes, but half of the habitat, if you will, 431 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 3: would be kind of underground to protect from it, and 432 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 3: then you would kind of come up into this little dome. 433 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 4: At least, that's how people were describing it to me. 434 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,479 Speaker 6: That's amazing. One of the other wonderful things about your 435 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 6: piece is that you kind of walked through how well. 436 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 6: Mars is the sort of the grand vision that Elon 437 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 6: has had for decades, but all of his other companies 438 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 6: kind of play a role. The Boring Company could build tunnels, 439 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 6: you know back in twenty eighteen when Shotwell told CNBC, 440 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 6: I think the Boring Company could be the way that 441 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 6: we house people on Mars. 442 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 4: That's right. 443 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: I mean, that is exactly why I actually wanted to 444 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 3: pursue this, because sometimes I think when you look at 445 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 3: what Elon Musk is doing, it can be confusing to 446 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 3: be like, why is he in this area? Why is 447 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 3: he in that area? And I just kept having people 448 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: tell me, like the common link is Mars, like they 449 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 3: can all add to his Mars plans. So the Boring Company, 450 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: that's a great example. So the tunneling is of course 451 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: what would need to be done on the surface of 452 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 3: Mars to build the city and build these habitats Tesla. 453 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: I mean the cyber truck that doesn't even take reporting. 454 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 3: You can just look on the street and see that 455 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 3: clearly he meant the cyber truck for Mars, right, although 456 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: you could argue it works here and us too. The 457 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,239 Speaker 3: one that really surprised me because I was kind of 458 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 3: puzzling over X Twitter and thinking, I don't really understand 459 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 3: how that plays into the Mars plans, and a lot 460 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: of people close to him I spoke to have been 461 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 3: frustrated that X has taken away from time he is 462 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: spending on Mars. But he has told people that the 463 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 3: polls he runs on X and how he kind of 464 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 3: asked should I reinstate this account or should I do this, 465 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 3: and that he's thinking about, or at least this is 466 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 3: what he's told people, how he could run a citizen 467 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 3: led government on Mars, so taking out all the representatives, 468 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 3: the senators, all of this and just kind of putting 469 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: the vote to the people basically. So even X, he 470 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: has that in mind for sure. 471 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 6: Right he wants to build a civilization that is self 472 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 6: governed basically. 473 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 3: That's right, But I don't think I put it in 474 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 3: the piece. So he is not He is hope that 475 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 3: he will not have the only city on Mars. Right, 476 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 3: He's kind of hoping down the line others, you know, 477 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 3: other countries, other players will also kind of build civilizations 478 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: up there. It's just he's the one that is kind 479 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: of the most focused on it at the moment. 480 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 6: What is your latest understanding about the timeline, because it 481 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 6: seems like with everything with Elon, like the timeline gets accelerated. 482 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 6: And yeah, for those of us who have been covering 483 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 6: him for a long time, he's often very late on 484 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 6: his timeline. To his credit, he often does eventually meet 485 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 6: these very aggressive timelines, but they're just very there's people 486 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 6: that his companies talk about Elon time. But Mars, I mean, 487 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 6: it seems like things are accelerating, like he used to 488 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 6: talk like he wants does he want to be there? What? 489 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 6: What's the latest ten He wants to be there in 490 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 6: ten years. 491 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: So I was surprised about this because again I went 492 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 3: back and looked at everything he had said. So back 493 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: ten years ago, he was kind of giving this forty 494 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: year kind of timeline for a civilization. So in his head, 495 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 3: a civilization is there when you have a million people. 496 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 3: So that timeline, that earlier timeline, is more kind of 497 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 3: in line with what NASA is saying. However, in April, 498 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: he gave a speech to a bunch of SpaceX employees 499 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 3: in Boca Chica and said that he expects in twenty 500 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: years we will have a million people living on Mars now. 501 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: I have to tell you that I spoke to many 502 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 3: experts for the story, and almost no. 503 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 4: One thought that was possible. 504 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: NASA doesn't even think they're going to land one person 505 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 3: on Mars until like twenty forty. So the fact that 506 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 3: we haven't even been there now, but he thinks that 507 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 3: we might have a million people there in twenty years 508 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 3: is pretty ambition, let's say. 509 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 4: Timeline. 510 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and even internally, here's the interesting thing. I asked 511 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 3: a lot of these people about it. Do you guys 512 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 3: really think that you're going to get there in twenty years? 513 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: No one really believes that. They're like, like, you said that, 514 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 3: that's Elon time. Hilariously, a couple people told me they 515 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 3: really think he just said that to make them work harder. 516 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 3: They call some of these drawings like a hype package 517 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 3: to get them excited about the work at SpaceX, even 518 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 3: though it's not gonna come to fruition in a really 519 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 3: long time. So the timeline Elon's almost definitely well, I 520 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: don't want to say almost definitely, but the chances of 521 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 3: him getting to Mars are pretty high in twenty years. 522 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 4: I don't know. According to the experts. 523 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 6: So on the one hand, he's kind of accelerated the timeline, 524 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 6: But on the other hand, he's always been pretty upfront 525 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 6: about how hard it's going to be to actually do this, 526 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 6: and he admits it's not going to be easy and 527 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 6: that people are going to die traveling there, and that's 528 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 6: why he does want to be on some of the 529 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 6: first ships. 530 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: Honestly, a bunch of people probably won't die in the beginning. 531 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: It's volunteers only. 532 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 6: How is that going to work? Volunteers only? Like, you 533 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 6: sign up on X, Yeah, I'll go to Mars. Did 534 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 6: you get any training? Where do they expect to get 535 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 6: these million people from? 536 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I know. I thought about this a 537 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: lot too. So first I was asking the SpaceX workers 538 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 3: like are you gonna go? Like, is there some VIP 539 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 3: system where if you work at SpaceX you can sign up. 540 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: I don't know about the VIP system, but definitely a 541 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 3: lot of them want to go. And that was another 542 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 3: thing I just heard so much about, is how much 543 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 3: people join SpaceX for this Mars colonization plans. 544 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 4: I mean, we hear Elon. 545 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: Talk about it a lot, but to hear it from 546 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: like the people on the ground floor they believe in 547 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: this one thing I didn't get into, but which is 548 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 3: important to this Who's gonna go thing is it's going 549 00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: to be expensive if he is lucky, and he has 550 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 3: said he wants to get the cost down where per 551 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 3: person it would basically be the cost of buying a house, 552 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: not in San Francisco, buying a house. 553 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 6: Like a million dollar California house. 554 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, like like think about like three hundred k or something. 555 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 4: That is like his ideal. 556 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 3: I have no idea if he's going to be able 557 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 3: to get it down that much. So some of it 558 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: would be really who can afford to go? 559 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: Right? 560 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: But that is also kind of a problem because you 561 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 3: don't just want high end travelers. 562 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 6: And this is and this is like I'm sorry, I 563 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 6: don't know enough about like orbits, but this is like 564 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 6: a one way ticket, right, Isn't the whole problem with 565 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 6: Mars that it's like really freaking far away, And like 566 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 6: the way the orbits work is that like it's only 567 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 6: close to Earth like once every I don't know, was 568 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 6: it every two years? You can't you can't like go 569 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 6: regular on a regular basis. It's every two years, right. 570 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 4: Totally totally real. 571 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then you can't really come back. I mean, 572 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 3: I guess if he was really able to get it 573 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: like a taxi quote unquote. But even so, every two 574 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 3: years takes nine months to get there. I mean, Mars 575 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: is one hundred and forty million miles from Earth, right, 576 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 3: So you can't just be like, oh, this sucks, I'm 577 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 3: going to take an uber home like You're on Mars 578 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: for two years. 579 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 6: Yeah right, and I'm thinking like with no protein, I'm 580 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 6: just like a meg. 581 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 4: Protein. 582 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 6: Well, another question about the funding for all of this. 583 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 6: You sort of very astutely noticed that during the Delaware 584 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 6: Chancery court trial about Musk's pay package, he made it 585 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 6: clear that part of the reason why he deserved and 586 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 6: wanted this money was that it would help to fund 587 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 6: the Mars ambitions. But why is that money so significant 588 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 6: for Elon personally in terms of realizing this vision. 589 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 3: He basically and pretty much everyone around him, his friends 590 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 3: Tesla board members talked about how the whole reason Elon 591 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: collects any pay at Tesla or anywhere is to fund 592 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 3: these Mars plans. So that is like his number one 593 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 3: goal basically, So if we take him at what him 594 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 3: and all those others are saying, yes, that is what 595 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 3: he is planning to use that money for. And I 596 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: don't know specifically how that money would be funneled. But 597 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: you know, another thing, just back to the timeline for 598 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 3: a second, Like a lot of I can't overstate. As 599 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 3: I was talking to people, a lot of them feel 600 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 3: like X. And it's funny because this story came out 601 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: I think right around the time he was suddenly going 602 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 3: full bore on the politics front, so I wasn't really 603 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 3: asking people about the political angle. But everyone really thinks 604 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 3: he's being too distracted and that he needs to focus. 605 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 4: More on Well. 606 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 6: It's funny because I think a lot of Tesla customers 607 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 6: and employees would say same, would say the same thing 608 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 6: about his lack of focus on Tesla, particularly since he 609 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 6: bought X. 610 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 4: Yes. 611 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 6: When it comes to Mars, he's also talked about it 612 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 6: could be an earth like planet. We could bring the 613 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 6: life from Earth, and then we could extend life from 614 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 6: Earth to Mars. The other thing that I'm super fascinated 615 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 6: by is musks focus on fertility, and we've written a 616 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 6: lot of stories about how he is funding fertility research 617 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 6: at the University of Texas at Austin. He has at 618 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 6: least twelve children, many of them by IVF. He is 619 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 6: very much a pro natalist who's constantly worried about population collapse. 620 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 6: And at first I thought, Okay, he's worried about population 621 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 6: collapse because all capitalists like want to make sure that 622 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 6: there are future consumers for their products, and fertility rates 623 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 6: are declining in the United States and much of the West. 624 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 6: But then I was wondering, maybe this is all just 625 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 6: about Mars too, like he wants there to be more 626 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 6: people for this new colony on this other planet. I 627 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 6: haven't connected quite that far yet, but I mean, was 628 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 6: there anything about his natalism, population collapse, fertility obsession in 629 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 6: your discussions. 630 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 3: It's so funny you say that, because that is literally 631 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 3: exactly what I went into this thinking. I was like, 632 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 3: this is related to his fertility push here in the US, 633 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 3: exactly the same thoughts. But then as I went down 634 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 3: the road and I talked to more people and I 635 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 3: heard him keep speaking about how kids wouldn't be on 636 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 3: the first voyage, I sort of thought that through and 637 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: I was like, his kids are going to be adults 638 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 3: by then. I couldn't quite make the leap like you're saying, 639 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 3: and no one was talking about. No one was relating 640 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 3: it that way. What they were talking about is this 641 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 3: potential to have a totally new speed she's on Mars, 642 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 3: which is one thing that SpaceX is kind of basically 643 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 3: researching right now, because we don't know if you can 644 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 3: carry children in space right now. They haven't figured that 645 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 3: out for sure. 646 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 6: What do you mean researching a new species? 647 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 4: That's a good question. 648 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 3: So they're not sorry, I shouldn't say they're not researching 649 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: a new species. They're researching how we could procreate on Mars, basically. 650 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 3: And so when I learned that, that's when I sort 651 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 3: of was like, I don't know if this is totally 652 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 3: related to what is happening with him on Earth and 653 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 3: all his children, because it doesn't seem like he would 654 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 3: be having all those children to carry to Mars. And 655 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: no one said that to me. 656 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 6: So I think my last question is do you have 657 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 6: any interest in going to Mars yourself? Let's just say 658 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 6: your kids are grown, they're successfully launched, you're in the 659 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 6: twilight of your years, you've won all the Journalis prizes, 660 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 6: you're happy like this would be the last big adventure. 661 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 6: Would you have any interest in going? 662 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 4: No, I am not going to be going to Mars. 663 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 4: I am. 664 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 3: I totally appreciate why others want to go or go 665 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 3: to the moon or go to space, but it's definitely 666 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 3: never been one of my things. 667 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 2: I know, what about you. 668 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 6: Same, I'm fundamentally like an ocean person, Like I really 669 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 6: like to be near water. It's not my preferred ecosystem. 670 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 6: Like my preferred ecosystem is like Point Raise. 671 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 3: No, definitely, And you know, like I have thought about 672 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 3: how crazy that would be to stand there and you're 673 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 3: just surrounded basically by space. I mean, I just I'm 674 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 3: gonna stick with Point Raise too. I'm there with you. 675 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 6: Kirsty Grind, reporter The New York Times, Thank you so 676 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 6: much for joining us. 677 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. 678 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 5: This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Naomi Shaven and 679 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 5: Rayhan Harmanti are senior editors. The idea for this very 680 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 5: show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering, and 681 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 5: David Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrikson. 682 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 5: The elon Ing theme is written and performed by Taka 683 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 5: Yasuzawa and Alex Suvierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive 684 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 5: producer and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. 685 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 5: A big thanks as always to our supporter Joel Weber. 686 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 5: I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and 687 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 5: review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See 688 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 5: you next week.