WEBVTT - Thomas L. Friedman: Connecting The Dots 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.520 I am very stressed out, like so many Americans. I'm 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.680 actually having trouble sleeping now. I don't think I should 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.880 be feeling this way about a presidential election, but I 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.919 don't think I'm alone. There's so much anger and rancor 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.520 really permeating throughout the country. Clearly a lot of people 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.120 have been left out of the American dream. This is 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.880 the autumn of our discontent. And I guess the question 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.280 I have is how did it happen? I want to 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:43.640 know why? What are the underpinnings of our anger? And 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.519 really the class warfare that we're witnessing is trade to blame? 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:54.000 Is globalization to blame? We hear Donald Trump certainly driving 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.440 that point home whenever he can. You go anywhere, you 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.760 watch Secretary Clinton, and you will see Devis Station where 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:06.039 manufacturers down thirty forty. Sometimes NAFTA is the worst trade 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.960 deal maybe ever signed anywhere, but certainly ever signed in 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.800 this country. And now you want to approve trans specific partnership. 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.200 You were totally in favor of it. Then you heard 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.040 what I was saying how bad it is, and you said, 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.520 I can't win that debate. But you know that if 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.000 you did win, you would approve that, and that will 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.120 be almost as bad as NAFTA. Nothing will ever dump NAPTON. 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.119 So I decided to invite one of the smartest people 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:37.840 I know on these issues to come and really give 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.760 us trade and globalization one oh one. Tom Friedman, I 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.600 think is such a great writer. A New Yorker profile 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.640 talked about the fact that he writes like it's a 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:54.240 conversation with the taxi driver. Well, sign me up, hire me. 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.240 I am your taxi driver, and I want you to 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:06.200 go along for the ride. Tom Friedman, Welcome to our podcast. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.359 Great to be with you, Katie. Now normally would be 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.200 our podcast because my friend, my partner in crime, my colleague, 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.760 Brian Goldsmith, is normally with me Tom, and he is wonderful. 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:22.400 But guess what, he just had a baby. Isn't that nice? Fantastic? 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.160 Her name is Eliza. I'm wondering if there was some 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:31.520 kind of HAMILTONI yeah, So what the hell is going on? Tom? 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.360 Why whatever do you mean, Katie? I mean he must 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.160 be You've been in this business a long time, Tom, 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.480 as have I, and I don't think I've seen anything 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.560 like this. Are you as upset about the state of 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.960 the Union as I am. Well, there's no question we're 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:53.080 seeing um election like no other. We're seeing a candidate 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.480 like no other in Donald Trump, and to me, the 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:02.040 single most honest, true, an important statement Donald Trump has 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.680 made since the beginning of the campaign is that he 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.119 could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue UM in New York 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.720 City and his supporters would still stick with him. And UM, 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.520 I think that is accurate, and I think we have 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.400 I don't think this is an economic event. I think 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.440 it's a cultural event. It's touching something I think very 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.240 deep in the American psyche. Uh. There there are at 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.680 least three things it's touching, if not more. The first 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.800 thing that I think is producing this is a profound 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.400 sense of what I would call stuck nous in the 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.200 country that we we feel stuck, you know, after eight 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:43.080 years of a lot of congressional gridlock around Obama. Um, 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.080 a lot of it was deliberately engineered by Republicans to 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.200 make Obama fail. But in the end, they they so 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.880 soiled their own garden that um, they ended up inviting 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.320 in an invasive species called Donald Trump. And I think 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:01.040 one of the Trump's very successful a pe olls is 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.600 that I'm a business guy. I know how to get 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.520 stuff done. I can unstick us. I am King Arthur, 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.880 and I can pull the sword from the stone. And 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.960 I think a lot of people look at that and 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.440 listen to him and think, well, you know, I kind 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.680 of doubt it, But you know what, what if he can, 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.120 why not give him a chance? What do we have 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.480 to lose? Someone I know described him as an experimental 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.200 drug that you've tried everything, nothing has worked. You're willing 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.760 to go forward and and and inject him and just 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.280 deal with the side effects. That's a very very good 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.680 UM analogy. And I think the second thing feeding Trump 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.000 is a profound sense of homelessness, uh, the likes of 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.920 which I've never seen at the national scale. When you 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.159 say homelessness, do you mean lack of community? Um? Well, 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.000 I mean people feeling not at home in their own homes. 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.440 I don't mean people living on sidewalks. I mean, um 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.840 let's remember Barack Obama ran for resident um claiming that 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.000 a marriage was between a man and a woman. All right, 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.919 he will follow Ireland in in uh proclaiming marriages between 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.200 any two people who love each other. That's a big 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.880 shift for a lot of people, and it took Obama, 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.120 you know, eight years to get his mind around it, 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.719 or six or however many. So for other people who 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:23.160 come from more conservative, um faith based background, I can 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.320 I can understand why all of this is making them 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.960 feel unmoored, really unsettling. It's sort of like the culture 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.080 wars are alive, and well exactly. Secondly, you have in 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.640 the same homelessness vein um. You're You're in the grocery 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.880 store and everyone around you is speaking Spanish again. I'm 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.560 a really pro immigration person, but this rise in the 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.160 number of sort of immigrants we've had and people not 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:53.000 speaking the language again makes some people feel really homeless. Okay. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.880 And Donald Trump's a value proposition is that I will 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.839 erect a wall um that will stop these changes, that 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.159 will make you feel home again. And it's really not 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.400 make America great again, per se. It is make me 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.960 feel home again, isn't it Isn't it isn't it making 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.159 make us go back to the way things were, Because 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.479 I think, you know, one of the things that I've 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.640 thought about a lot as I've watched this unfold is 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.479 that we're in the midst of a massive transformation of society. 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:29.400 Pile on that with globalization, right, and immigration and suddenly 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.400 you have a melting pot that you're not sure you 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:37.000 love the ingredients. Right, No, absolutely, And then um, you 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.320 know you have the whole rise of political correctness on 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.240 college campuses, which you can also people makes people feel 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.479 I'm not I can I say this? Can I tell 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:46.120 this joke? Is it going to get me to lose 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.520 my job? Um? And again, um, you shouldn't tell off 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.160 color jokes or or racist or sexist jokes in ways 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.279 that will make other people feel not at home. But 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.880 all I'm saying is all of these changes at once 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.160 are something that I think is propelling him and accounts 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.560 for the fact that he can declare that if I 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:05.919 shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, I won't lose any support. 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:07.960 I think on top of all this, we have a 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.960 broader trend where the line between entertainment has become politics 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.400 and politics has become entertainment. I was going to ask 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.520 you about why Donald Trump. Why is he the Night 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.640 in Shiny Armor? Is it because of his celebrity? Yeah, 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.400 I think there's a lot of people who just like 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.440 the show. Um. And he even says that he said, 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.880 look at people come to my rallies because they're fun. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:31.720 Because you never know what's going to come out of 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.640 his mouth. Just on the pure entertainment level, it's a 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.000 train wreck in some cases. And it's it is like 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.440 a reality show. You can't take your you can't take 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.480 your eyes off it is going to talk about his hotel, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.480 his steaks, is wine. And we've lost the line between 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.760 entertainment and politics and and that I think you wrap 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.200 all those things together, and I think you can explain 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.480 where we are. And you said, you know this moment 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.320 of rapid change. I couldn't agree more. I a book 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:06.640 coming out November, plug exactly, Plug Plug Plug. It's called 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.560 Thank You for Being Late Um, An Optimist Guide to 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.160 Thriving in the Age of Accelerations, Because I think we're 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.760 in an age of acceleration. Well, let's talk. Can we 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.000 can we sort of take a step back, Tom, because 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.640 you're such an expert on globalization and trade and there 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.920 there's been so much discussion about you know, China and 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.800 people taking our jobs and you know, the economy, and 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.560 can we sort of just dissect some of these things 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.320 that have surfaced in this campaign so we can hopefully 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.640 get some clarity. Do we need to rethink sort of 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:43.199 this whole neoliberalism philosophy that free trade is a great 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:48.920 thing for everyone. Well again, let's let's so let's unpack it. Um. 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.400 People who benefit from trade tend to have no idea 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.160 who they are. People who are hurt by trade no 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.640 exactly who they are. So you begin with that asymmetry. 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.439 No one sits around and say, had cut this basket 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.160 full of goods I got at Walmart? Um, you know, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:05.960 for half the price I would have had to pay 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.360 for them, these tennis hues, these T shirts, you know, 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:12.320 this stereo, this iPod Um, I'm so glad we have 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.400 free trade because that's why it's costing me half as much. Um. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.760 That person has no idea how much they're benefiting from globalization. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.400 But the person who lost their job, um at the 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.679 textile factory, it knows exactly who they are. It definitely 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.760 hurts specific groups, and our job as a society should 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.800 be to cushion the impact on those groups. We have 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.160 not done that. I was reading an economist that we 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.000 spend a minuscule amount of the GDP on retraining people, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:42.319 and as we are making this massive transition, it seems 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.360 the skill set you need to be successful has just 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.480 changed dramatically. So one that gets to the other. I'm 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.880 in the New York Times Washington office, okay, and I'm 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.920 sitting at my desk with a fancy new Assisco phone. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.559 We used to have a receptionist at the Washington office 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.720 of the New York Times out in the hall. We 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.360 don't have her there now. She did not lose her 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.479 job to a Mexican. She lost her job to a microchip. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:12.520 It's called voicemail. Okay. So the vast majority of jobs 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.600 are not lost to foreign factories or competition. They're lost 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:21.679 to technology. They aren't outsourced to Mexico. They're outsourced to history. 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.280 They're made obsolete. If horses could have voted, we never 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:30.400 would have had cars. We know that free trade benefits 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.680 the society overall. Where we have failed is to give 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.360 targeted help to our brothers and sisters who are really 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.280 born the brunt of trade. Why aren't we doing more 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:42.840 for them? And did we did? Were we blindsided by 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.880 the kind of pain that would be inflicted by some 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.240 of these free trade agreements. I'd love you to tell 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.199 me if you think NAFTA was a good thing or 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.360 a bad thing, because that's confusing. But again, because it's 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.360 confusing because it's a mixed picture. Um Uh, it definitely 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.400 benefited certain companies. If you're in a an agriculture company 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.160 now exporting to Mexico, not to mention to Canada, but 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.920 to Mexico, you love NAFTA. If you were working in 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.400 an auto parts company in Detroit that's been moved to 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:17.840 the Michauladores or mont Uh, then you don't like uh NAFTA. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.400 So it's entirely depends you know where you sit. But 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.280 I'll tell you something else. How lucky are we as 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.160 a as a country that our two neighbors are Mexico 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:35.640 and Canada too stable free market democracies. Mexico one reason 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:40.600 Mexico is a stable free market democracy was NAFTA. Naft 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.080 to help consolidate Mexican democracy, which is wonderful. But honestly, 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.520 people who are suffering in Detroit or in the rust 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.880 Bell Tom aren't really that excited that Mexico is doing better. 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.760 You know, I think Macrick cosmically, I think that's an 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.640 incredibly important point. But what do you say to the 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:01.559 guy who cannot, for the life of him, translate his skills, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.640 maybe on the assembly line or in a factory who's 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.200 been replaced by robots who or whose firm has has 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.679 gone overseas. Yeah. What I say to him is, please, Um, 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:18.080 let's your legislator, My legislator, Uh, create legislation where I 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.520 can transfer my text dollars to you in a way 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.240 that will give you opportunities to be successful in this 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:29.079 new world. You really feel for a lot of these workers, Tom, 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.000 because you know it's not that far from St. Louis Park, 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.920 where you grew up a suburb of Minneapolis and had 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.680 a father who was the vice president of a ball 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:44.040 bearings company. Um. You know, I think people may see 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.880 you as a snobby New York Times columnists, but you 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.199 really understand well, you know I think that you're a 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.480 kid from the Midwest. Well, I grew up with these 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.800 people I want, I'm What frustrates me is we haven't 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.080 had the legislation to properly take care of these people. 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.040 I totally understand their anger. I just don't want their 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.560 anger to be translated into national policy that will hurt 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.240 them and us. Tell me why you think protection ism 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:18.160 is bad for for the average Joe or Gene Genie. Well, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.880 let's just start with I mean, if you're a Walmart shopper. 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.120 If we have protection is um um. I mean everything 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.120 in your shopping card is going to cost more. Um. 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.040 You know, the tennis shoes, the T shirts, um, of 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.959 the appliances, the iPods. I mean, if we literally put 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.840 up walls of protection, uh, they all might be made here. 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.360 But you know you are not going to get banged 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.200 for your buck at all. Before we go to a break, 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.600 do you think China is the boogeyman that it's been 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.920 portrayed to be. I'm sure you saw Saturday Night Live 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.640 Alec Baldwin kind of mocking Donald Trump for talking repeatedly 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.439 about China. I think he pronounced it China. Yeah. Right, 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.360 our jobs flee in this country, they're going to Mexico, 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:09.480 They're going to China. So is China the boogeyman? Or 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.680 is it? You know? I mean what role is China playing? 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.400 And all this time, you know there's no question that China, 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.640 once it got admitted to the w t O UM, 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.880 you know, has engaged in protectionist practices and in some ways, 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.880 you know, shakedowns of American industries. Um that uh, you know, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.680 I think need to be addressed and should be addressed 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.600 in a in a very tough minded way. At the 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.120 same time, let's remember China holds you know, well over 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.840 a trillion dollars of our debt. So the fact that 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.040 you have the low price mortgage you have today is 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.840 in part because China gives us their money and we 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.720 give them an iou because they're sitting on those io 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.040 U s Uh. Interest rates are what they are, So 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.960 your home mortgage is what it is. So you alienate 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.520 China at your own risk. I always joke that, you know, 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.160 they say China Hong Kong or one country, two systems. 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.880 I say no, no, no, it's America and China that 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.640 are one country, two systems. Uh. China can't roll over 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.520 in bed without hitting us. We can't roll over in 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.160 bed without hitting China. And so we've got to find 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.920 a way to work at out term mutual benefit because 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.560 there's only one thing worse more dangerous to us than 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.680 a rising China, and that's a falling China. And if 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.360 falling China will affect the cost of everything from the 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.360 shoes on your feet to the money in your wallet, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.760 to the value of your mortgage. And do you think 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.040 Donald Trump will lead to a falling China? You know, 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.760 I I don't want to make any any predictions. Who 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.960 knows what Trump believes? I have no. Whenever people say 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.080 to me, what do you think you know Trump would do? 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.920 I always say which Trump? The Trump who went to 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.240 meet with the President of Mexico and was all sweetness 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.160 and light and we have to get along, we're neighbors. 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:54.800 Or the Trump who went a few hours later back 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:59.000 to Arizona and denounced Mexican rapists and immigrants, etcetera. With 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.200 the with Donald, it's always the question of which Trump. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:24.160 We'll be back with Tom Friedman right after this. How 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.760 do you come up with the ideas for your columns? Tom? 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.360 It's so demanding, it seems to me. I mean, do 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.040 you have ever have just complete writer's block and think, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.360 oh my god, I have no idea what I want 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:36.560 to write about? Or do you have so many columns 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.720 in your head just waiting to to vomit out on 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:44.360 the page. Yeah? No, I don't mean that in a 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:49.640 bad way, you know what I mean. I see columns everywhere, um, 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.080 and so for me, I've never ever in twenty one years, 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.480 you'll come to the day of my columns. Oh my god, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:17:00.160 what am I gonna write? That's a good invitation, and 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.600 of me exactly don't about I'm interested in a lot 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:08.520 of things. Technology is science, education, geopolitics, politics. The way 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.320 my mind works is I'm a dot connector. So I 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.880 tend to see the connections between things that sometimes other 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.720 people don't, and so that gives me a leg up. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.920 But it's never never been a problem for me. I 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.000 wouldn't be doing this job for twenty one years if 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.159 it were a lot of people. Really. I think credit 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.840 you with taking complicated concepts and really distilling them. And 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.200 I think in that New Yorker profile about you, it 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.400 talked about how you sort of are a master at 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:40.880 branding catchphrases, folks, the analysis of big fat geopolitical issues, 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.240 and it's you you distill it to a point where 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.240 it's like you're having a chat with a taxi driver. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.640 I went into journalism because I love being a translator 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:54.080 from English to English. I like taking really complicated subjects 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.119 and breaking them down and ways first of all that 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.960 I can understand and then hopefully others can understand. And 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.800 I happen to think there's some thing very idealistic about that. 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.920 But I will tell you this to simplify something accurately. 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.040 You have to understand it deeply. So I'm not just 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.320 doing advertising branding. I mean I'm able to sometimes distill 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:17.000 really complex things into simple images that people understand and 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.399 can grasp because I've taken a lot of time to 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.679 understand them, take them apart, and put them together in 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.800 a way that someone can understand. Do you worry that, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.120 you know, speaking of your new book that's coming out 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.760 later in November, that are you worried about the pace 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.960 of our lives? It seems to me that the desire 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.040 to really dig deep into some issues. And when I 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.400 say dig deep, I'm saying read a column um that 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:49.080 that people that people aren't really um, they don't seem 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.720 so invested in knowledge. And in fact, there's such a 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.080 strain of anti intellectualism, not only in this country but 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.760 around the world. Dare I say, well, you can get 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.720 such a rise now for yourself, you know, with just 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.479 a hundred forty two characters. If if you come up 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.679 with a really clever, snappy tweet and it goes viral 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.879 quote unquote, wow, you just got a global buzz out 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.320 of characters. You don't have to write an article, a column, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.920 a book. So the system now rewards that kind of behavior. 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.719 You see Trump doing it, you know, um, And you know, 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.359 all good things require patients. You can't speed up the 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:30.080 gestation of a baby elephant or a bibob treat things 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.680 that can last for a thousand years, they all take patients. 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.240 It's the reason my book is called thank You for 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.920 Being Late, Um, which is I want to celebrate pausing, 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.280 taking time to reflect or rethink, to renew, to reimagine. 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:48.080 I remember reading the science of sort of brain interaction 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.560 and daydreaming is actually a good thing, despite what we 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.760 were told in school by teachers, that kind of having 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.840 a moment, to not be constantly stimulated by your phone 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:02.880 or by conversation ends, or by social media or any 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.440 kind of media. That's when you're creative. Juices really flow. 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.040 That's why people have their best ideas when they're in 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:13.919 the shower. Do you intentionally disconnect so you can just plaine? 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.199 Thank Tom? Well? Absolutely, you know, I mean again, the 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.280 reason my book is called thank You for Being Late 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.720 is I would meet people in Washington, d C. For breakfast, 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.320 and they'd come sometimes fifteen twenty minutes late. Every once 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:26.840 in a while, say Tom, I really started as the 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.479 weather driving the subway, the dog game, my homework, and um. 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.920 One day I spontaneously said to one of them, Actually, Katie, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.280 thank you for being late. Because you were late. I've 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.720 been eavesdropping on the conversation next to me. Fascinating. What 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.520 did you forget your phone? Yeah, I've been people watching 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:46.359 the law be fantastic. But you know, nobody, nobody does that, Tom, 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.760 because if there's any break in the action, if you 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.240 have any free time, I mean, there's no such thing 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.119 as free time, because you automatically go to your phone. 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.880 Well that's the thing. I don't. I go automatically go golfing. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.800 I know you do. In fact, my husband John was 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:07.200 upset he couldn't be here to talk to you about 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.280 the writer cup. I was like, whatever, whatever, John, you 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.000 and Tom get together and go golfing. But do you 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.480 do you? Um? I'm serious about this, Tom, because I 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.119 find it. I have a problem with it. As you 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:20.959 may know, I'm actually not on Twitter. The New York 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.359 Times tweets my column and I'm not a uh and 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.399 even a remotely Twitter user. I wouldn't even know how 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.879 to use it myself. Really, do you ever feel like 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.960 you're missing out on it? Anything? No, you know, I somehow, Kat, 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.080 you have survived sixty three years without it. You know, 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.320 you have seven sevent thousand followers, So I guess it's 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:40.600 not hurting you so much? Is that? Um? The New 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:42.680 York Times tweets my column, so those are followers of 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.640 my column. So I'm thrilled by that. But I myself 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.120 because I don't. First of all, I changed my mind 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.439 all the time. If you asked me to tweet something, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.240 you know, immediately after an event, my reaction, I need 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.959 to stop, pause and think about it because I and 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.359 by the way, I may change my time my mind 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.280 three times over the next two days as I think 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.000 about it. So I would hate to be out there saying, 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.240 you know, this thumbs up and then next day feel God, 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:09.320 I really should have made thumbs down and I gotta 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:11.000 write my column about it. But I have a tweet 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.879 out there on Monday saying this, so you know, I 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:15.920 just don't. And by the way, if I find out 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.920 about the fire of the earthquake, the shooting, uh five 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.720 minutes later from CNN and from Twitter, you know what, 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.840 I'm okay with that. You sound so reasonable. Let's talk 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.720 a little bit more about this campaign. Why is the 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.360 country so divided. Hillary Clinton seems to be much more experienced, 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:38.679 more competent, but people are so uneasy about her, and 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.359 there's a lot of sort of moral equivalence being made 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:47.720 between her fallibilities and Donald Trump's. Why is that? You know, 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:50.480 they say, Katie, that people after a while start to 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.720 resemble their dogs. You know, I hope I don't resemble mine, 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.280 because I have a seventeen year old Karen Terrier and 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:01.600 she is she's not looking so good. But I think 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.359 over time people start to resemble their problems. And what 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.639 I mean by that is, um, we have started to 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:13.040 really look like Sunnies and Shiites, Democrats and Republicans. That 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:18.520 not two parties divided by a different set of competing 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.879 ideas that must and cannon always should be able to 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.320