1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: I am very stressed out, like so many Americans. I'm 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: actually having trouble sleeping now. I don't think I should 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: be feeling this way about a presidential election, but I 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: don't think I'm alone. There's so much anger and rancor 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: really permeating throughout the country. Clearly a lot of people 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: have been left out of the American dream. This is 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: the autumn of our discontent. And I guess the question 8 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: I have is how did it happen? I want to 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: know why? What are the underpinnings of our anger? And 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: really the class warfare that we're witnessing is trade to blame? 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: Is globalization to blame? We hear Donald Trump certainly driving 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: that point home whenever he can. You go anywhere, you 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: watch Secretary Clinton, and you will see Devis Station where 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: manufacturers down thirty forty. Sometimes NAFTA is the worst trade 15 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: deal maybe ever signed anywhere, but certainly ever signed in 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: this country. And now you want to approve trans specific partnership. 17 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: You were totally in favor of it. Then you heard 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: what I was saying how bad it is, and you said, 19 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: I can't win that debate. But you know that if 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: you did win, you would approve that, and that will 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: be almost as bad as NAFTA. Nothing will ever dump NAPTON. 22 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: So I decided to invite one of the smartest people 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: I know on these issues to come and really give 24 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: us trade and globalization one oh one. Tom Friedman, I 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: think is such a great writer. A New Yorker profile 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: talked about the fact that he writes like it's a 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: conversation with the taxi driver. Well, sign me up, hire me. 28 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: I am your taxi driver, and I want you to 29 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: go along for the ride. Tom Friedman, Welcome to our podcast. 30 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: Great to be with you, Katie. Now normally would be 31 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: our podcast because my friend, my partner in crime, my colleague, 32 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: Brian Goldsmith, is normally with me Tom, and he is wonderful. 33 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: But guess what, he just had a baby. Isn't that nice? Fantastic? 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: Her name is Eliza. I'm wondering if there was some 35 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of HAMILTONI yeah, So what the hell is going on? Tom? 36 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: Why whatever do you mean, Katie? I mean he must 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: be You've been in this business a long time, Tom, 38 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: as have I, and I don't think I've seen anything 39 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: like this. Are you as upset about the state of 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: the Union as I am. Well, there's no question we're 41 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: seeing um election like no other. We're seeing a candidate 42 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: like no other in Donald Trump, and to me, the 43 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: single most honest, true, an important statement Donald Trump has 44 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: made since the beginning of the campaign is that he 45 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 1: could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue UM in New York 46 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: City and his supporters would still stick with him. And UM, 47 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: I think that is accurate, and I think we have 48 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't think this is an economic event. I think 49 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: it's a cultural event. It's touching something I think very 50 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: deep in the American psyche. Uh. There there are at 51 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: least three things it's touching, if not more. The first 52 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: thing that I think is producing this is a profound 53 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: sense of what I would call stuck nous in the 54 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: country that we we feel stuck, you know, after eight 55 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: years of a lot of congressional gridlock around Obama. Um, 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: a lot of it was deliberately engineered by Republicans to 57 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: make Obama fail. But in the end, they they so 58 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: soiled their own garden that um, they ended up inviting 59 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: in an invasive species called Donald Trump. And I think 60 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: one of the Trump's very successful a pe olls is 61 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: that I'm a business guy. I know how to get 62 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: stuff done. I can unstick us. I am King Arthur, 63 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: and I can pull the sword from the stone. And 64 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people look at that and 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: listen to him and think, well, you know, I kind 66 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: of doubt it, But you know what, what if he can, 67 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: why not give him a chance? What do we have 68 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: to lose? Someone I know described him as an experimental 69 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: drug that you've tried everything, nothing has worked. You're willing 70 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: to go forward and and and inject him and just 71 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: deal with the side effects. That's a very very good 72 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: UM analogy. And I think the second thing feeding Trump 73 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: is a profound sense of homelessness, uh, the likes of 74 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: which I've never seen at the national scale. When you 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: say homelessness, do you mean lack of community? Um? Well, 76 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean people feeling not at home in their own homes. 77 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: I don't mean people living on sidewalks. I mean, um 78 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: let's remember Barack Obama ran for resident um claiming that 79 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: a marriage was between a man and a woman. All right, 80 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: he will follow Ireland in in uh proclaiming marriages between 81 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: any two people who love each other. That's a big 82 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: shift for a lot of people, and it took Obama, 83 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, eight years to get his mind around it, 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: or six or however many. So for other people who 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: come from more conservative, um faith based background, I can 86 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: I can understand why all of this is making them 87 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: feel unmoored, really unsettling. It's sort of like the culture 88 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: wars are alive, and well exactly. Secondly, you have in 89 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: the same homelessness vein um. You're You're in the grocery 90 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: store and everyone around you is speaking Spanish again. I'm 91 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: a really pro immigration person, but this rise in the 92 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: number of sort of immigrants we've had and people not 93 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: speaking the language again makes some people feel really homeless. Okay. 94 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: And Donald Trump's a value proposition is that I will 95 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: erect a wall um that will stop these changes, that 96 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: will make you feel home again. And it's really not 97 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: make America great again, per se. It is make me 98 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: feel home again, isn't it Isn't it isn't it making 99 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: make us go back to the way things were, Because 100 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things that I've 101 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: thought about a lot as I've watched this unfold is 102 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: that we're in the midst of a massive transformation of society. 103 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: Pile on that with globalization, right, and immigration and suddenly 104 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: you have a melting pot that you're not sure you 105 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: love the ingredients. Right, No, absolutely, And then um, you 106 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: know you have the whole rise of political correctness on 107 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: college campuses, which you can also people makes people feel 108 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: I'm not I can I say this? Can I tell 109 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: this joke? Is it going to get me to lose 110 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: my job? Um? And again, um, you shouldn't tell off 111 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: color jokes or or racist or sexist jokes in ways 112 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: that will make other people feel not at home. But 113 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: all I'm saying is all of these changes at once 114 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: are something that I think is propelling him and accounts 115 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: for the fact that he can declare that if I 116 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, I won't lose any support. 117 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: I think on top of all this, we have a 118 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: broader trend where the line between entertainment has become politics 119 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: and politics has become entertainment. I was going to ask 120 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: you about why Donald Trump. Why is he the Night 121 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: in Shiny Armor? Is it because of his celebrity? Yeah, 122 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people who just like 123 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: the show. Um. And he even says that he said, 124 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: look at people come to my rallies because they're fun. 125 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: Because you never know what's going to come out of 126 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: his mouth. Just on the pure entertainment level, it's a 127 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: train wreck in some cases. And it's it is like 128 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: a reality show. You can't take your you can't take 129 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: your eyes off it is going to talk about his hotel, 130 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: his steaks, is wine. And we've lost the line between 131 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: entertainment and politics and and that I think you wrap 132 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: all those things together, and I think you can explain 133 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: where we are. And you said, you know this moment 134 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: of rapid change. I couldn't agree more. I a book 135 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: coming out November, plug exactly, Plug Plug Plug. It's called 136 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: Thank You for Being Late Um, An Optimist Guide to 137 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: Thriving in the Age of Accelerations, Because I think we're 138 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: in an age of acceleration. Well, let's talk. Can we 139 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: can we sort of take a step back, Tom, because 140 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: you're such an expert on globalization and trade and there 141 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: there's been so much discussion about you know, China and 142 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: people taking our jobs and you know, the economy, and 143 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: can we sort of just dissect some of these things 144 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: that have surfaced in this campaign so we can hopefully 145 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: get some clarity. Do we need to rethink sort of 146 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: this whole neoliberalism philosophy that free trade is a great 147 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: thing for everyone. Well again, let's let's so let's unpack it. Um. 148 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: People who benefit from trade tend to have no idea 149 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: who they are. People who are hurt by trade no 150 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: exactly who they are. So you begin with that asymmetry. 151 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: No one sits around and say, had cut this basket 152 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: full of goods I got at Walmart? Um, you know, 153 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: for half the price I would have had to pay 154 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: for them, these tennis hues, these T shirts, you know, 155 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: this stereo, this iPod Um, I'm so glad we have 156 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: free trade because that's why it's costing me half as much. Um. 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: That person has no idea how much they're benefiting from globalization. 158 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: But the person who lost their job, um at the 159 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: textile factory, it knows exactly who they are. It definitely 160 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: hurts specific groups, and our job as a society should 161 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: be to cushion the impact on those groups. We have 162 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: not done that. I was reading an economist that we 163 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: spend a minuscule amount of the GDP on retraining people, 164 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: and as we are making this massive transition, it seems 165 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: the skill set you need to be successful has just 166 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: changed dramatically. So one that gets to the other. I'm 167 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: in the New York Times Washington office, okay, and I'm 168 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: sitting at my desk with a fancy new Assisco phone. 169 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: We used to have a receptionist at the Washington office 170 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: of the New York Times out in the hall. We 171 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: don't have her there now. She did not lose her 172 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,479 Speaker 1: job to a Mexican. She lost her job to a microchip. 173 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: It's called voicemail. Okay. So the vast majority of jobs 174 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: are not lost to foreign factories or competition. They're lost 175 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: to technology. They aren't outsourced to Mexico. They're outsourced to history. 176 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: They're made obsolete. If horses could have voted, we never 177 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: would have had cars. We know that free trade benefits 178 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: the society overall. Where we have failed is to give 179 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: targeted help to our brothers and sisters who are really 180 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: born the brunt of trade. Why aren't we doing more 181 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: for them? And did we did? Were we blindsided by 182 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: the kind of pain that would be inflicted by some 183 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: of these free trade agreements. I'd love you to tell 184 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: me if you think NAFTA was a good thing or 185 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: a bad thing, because that's confusing. But again, because it's 186 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: confusing because it's a mixed picture. Um Uh, it definitely 187 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: benefited certain companies. If you're in a an agriculture company 188 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: now exporting to Mexico, not to mention to Canada, but 189 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: to Mexico, you love NAFTA. If you were working in 190 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: an auto parts company in Detroit that's been moved to 191 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: the Michauladores or mont Uh, then you don't like uh NAFTA. 192 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: So it's entirely depends you know where you sit. But 193 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: I'll tell you something else. How lucky are we as 194 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: a as a country that our two neighbors are Mexico 195 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: and Canada too stable free market democracies. Mexico one reason 196 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: Mexico is a stable free market democracy was NAFTA. Naft 197 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: to help consolidate Mexican democracy, which is wonderful. But honestly, 198 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: people who are suffering in Detroit or in the rust 199 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: Bell Tom aren't really that excited that Mexico is doing better. 200 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: You know, I think Macrick cosmically, I think that's an 201 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: incredibly important point. But what do you say to the 202 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: guy who cannot, for the life of him, translate his skills, 203 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: maybe on the assembly line or in a factory who's 204 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: been replaced by robots who or whose firm has has 205 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: gone overseas. Yeah. What I say to him is, please, Um, 206 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: let's your legislator, My legislator, Uh, create legislation where I 207 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: can transfer my text dollars to you in a way 208 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: that will give you opportunities to be successful in this 209 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: new world. You really feel for a lot of these workers, Tom, 210 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: because you know it's not that far from St. Louis Park, 211 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: where you grew up a suburb of Minneapolis and had 212 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: a father who was the vice president of a ball 213 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: bearings company. Um. You know, I think people may see 214 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: you as a snobby New York Times columnists, but you 215 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: really understand well, you know I think that you're a 216 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: kid from the Midwest. Well, I grew up with these 217 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: people I want, I'm What frustrates me is we haven't 218 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: had the legislation to properly take care of these people. 219 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: I totally understand their anger. I just don't want their 220 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: anger to be translated into national policy that will hurt 221 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: them and us. Tell me why you think protection ism 222 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: is bad for for the average Joe or Gene Genie. Well, 223 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: let's just start with I mean, if you're a Walmart shopper. 224 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: If we have protection is um um. I mean everything 225 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: in your shopping card is going to cost more. Um. 226 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: You know, the tennis shoes, the T shirts, um, of 227 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: the appliances, the iPods. I mean, if we literally put 228 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: up walls of protection, uh, they all might be made here. 229 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: But you know you are not going to get banged 230 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: for your buck at all. Before we go to a break, 231 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: do you think China is the boogeyman that it's been 232 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: portrayed to be. I'm sure you saw Saturday Night Live 233 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin kind of mocking Donald Trump for talking repeatedly 234 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: about China. I think he pronounced it China. Yeah. Right, 235 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: our jobs flee in this country, they're going to Mexico, 236 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: They're going to China. So is China the boogeyman? Or 237 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: is it? You know? I mean what role is China playing? 238 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: And all this time, you know there's no question that China, 239 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: once it got admitted to the w t O UM, 240 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, has engaged in protectionist practices and in some ways, 241 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, shakedowns of American industries. Um that uh, you know, 242 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: I think need to be addressed and should be addressed 243 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: in a in a very tough minded way. At the 244 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: same time, let's remember China holds you know, well over 245 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: a trillion dollars of our debt. So the fact that 246 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: you have the low price mortgage you have today is 247 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: in part because China gives us their money and we 248 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: give them an iou because they're sitting on those io 249 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: U s Uh. Interest rates are what they are, So 250 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: your home mortgage is what it is. So you alienate 251 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: China at your own risk. I always joke that, you know, 252 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: they say China Hong Kong or one country, two systems. 253 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: I say no, no, no, it's America and China that 254 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: are one country, two systems. Uh. China can't roll over 255 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: in bed without hitting us. We can't roll over in 256 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: bed without hitting China. And so we've got to find 257 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: a way to work at out term mutual benefit because 258 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: there's only one thing worse more dangerous to us than 259 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: a rising China, and that's a falling China. And if 260 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: falling China will affect the cost of everything from the 261 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: shoes on your feet to the money in your wallet, 262 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: to the value of your mortgage. And do you think 263 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump will lead to a falling China? You know, 264 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: I I don't want to make any any predictions. Who 265 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: knows what Trump believes? I have no. Whenever people say 266 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: to me, what do you think you know Trump would do? 267 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: I always say which Trump? The Trump who went to 268 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: meet with the President of Mexico and was all sweetness 269 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: and light and we have to get along, we're neighbors. 270 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: Or the Trump who went a few hours later back 271 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: to Arizona and denounced Mexican rapists and immigrants, etcetera. With 272 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: the with Donald, it's always the question of which Trump. 273 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: We'll be back with Tom Friedman right after this. How 274 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: do you come up with the ideas for your columns? Tom? 275 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: It's so demanding, it seems to me. I mean, do 276 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: you have ever have just complete writer's block and think, 277 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: oh my god, I have no idea what I want 278 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: to write about? Or do you have so many columns 279 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: in your head just waiting to to vomit out on 280 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: the page. Yeah? No, I don't mean that in a 281 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: bad way, you know what I mean. I see columns everywhere, um, 282 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: and so for me, I've never ever in twenty one years, 283 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: you'll come to the day of my columns. Oh my god, 284 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: what am I gonna write? That's a good invitation, and 285 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: of me exactly don't about I'm interested in a lot 286 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: of things. Technology is science, education, geopolitics, politics. The way 287 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: my mind works is I'm a dot connector. So I 288 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: tend to see the connections between things that sometimes other 289 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: people don't, and so that gives me a leg up. 290 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: But it's never never been a problem for me. I 291 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't be doing this job for twenty one years if 292 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: it were a lot of people. Really. I think credit 293 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: you with taking complicated concepts and really distilling them. And 294 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: I think in that New Yorker profile about you, it 295 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: talked about how you sort of are a master at 296 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: branding catchphrases, folks, the analysis of big fat geopolitical issues, 297 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: and it's you you distill it to a point where 298 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: it's like you're having a chat with a taxi driver. 299 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: I went into journalism because I love being a translator 300 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: from English to English. I like taking really complicated subjects 301 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: and breaking them down and ways first of all that 302 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: I can understand and then hopefully others can understand. And 303 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: I happen to think there's some thing very idealistic about that. 304 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: But I will tell you this to simplify something accurately. 305 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: You have to understand it deeply. So I'm not just 306 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: doing advertising branding. I mean I'm able to sometimes distill 307 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: really complex things into simple images that people understand and 308 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: can grasp because I've taken a lot of time to 309 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: understand them, take them apart, and put them together in 310 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: a way that someone can understand. Do you worry that, 311 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, speaking of your new book that's coming out 312 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: later in November, that are you worried about the pace 313 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: of our lives? It seems to me that the desire 314 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: to really dig deep into some issues. And when I 315 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: say dig deep, I'm saying read a column um that 316 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: that people that people aren't really um, they don't seem 317 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: so invested in knowledge. And in fact, there's such a 318 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: strain of anti intellectualism, not only in this country but 319 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: around the world. Dare I say, well, you can get 320 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: such a rise now for yourself, you know, with just 321 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 1: a hundred forty two characters. If if you come up 322 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: with a really clever, snappy tweet and it goes viral 323 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: quote unquote, wow, you just got a global buzz out 324 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: of characters. You don't have to write an article, a column, 325 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: a book. So the system now rewards that kind of behavior. 326 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: You see Trump doing it, you know, um, And you know, 327 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: all good things require patients. You can't speed up the 328 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: gestation of a baby elephant or a bibob treat things 329 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: that can last for a thousand years, they all take patients. 330 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: It's the reason my book is called thank You for 331 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: Being Late, Um, which is I want to celebrate pausing, 332 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: taking time to reflect or rethink, to renew, to reimagine. 333 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: I remember reading the science of sort of brain interaction 334 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: and daydreaming is actually a good thing, despite what we 335 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: were told in school by teachers, that kind of having 336 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: a moment, to not be constantly stimulated by your phone 337 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: or by conversation ends, or by social media or any 338 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: kind of media. That's when you're creative. Juices really flow. 339 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: That's why people have their best ideas when they're in 340 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: the shower. Do you intentionally disconnect so you can just plaine? 341 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: Thank Tom? Well? Absolutely, you know, I mean again, the 342 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: reason my book is called thank You for Being Late 343 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: is I would meet people in Washington, d C. For breakfast, 344 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: and they'd come sometimes fifteen twenty minutes late. Every once 345 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: in a while, say Tom, I really started as the 346 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,479 Speaker 1: weather driving the subway, the dog game, my homework, and um. 347 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: One day I spontaneously said to one of them, Actually, Katie, 348 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: thank you for being late. Because you were late. I've 349 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: been eavesdropping on the conversation next to me. Fascinating. What 350 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: did you forget your phone? Yeah, I've been people watching 351 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: the law be fantastic. But you know, nobody, nobody does that, Tom, 352 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: because if there's any break in the action, if you 353 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: have any free time, I mean, there's no such thing 354 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: as free time, because you automatically go to your phone. 355 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. I don't. I go automatically go golfing. 356 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: I know you do. In fact, my husband John was 357 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: upset he couldn't be here to talk to you about 358 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: the writer cup. I was like, whatever, whatever, John, you 359 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: and Tom get together and go golfing. But do you 360 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: do you? Um? I'm serious about this, Tom, because I 361 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: find it. I have a problem with it. As you 362 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: may know, I'm actually not on Twitter. The New York 363 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: Times tweets my column and I'm not a uh and 364 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: even a remotely Twitter user. I wouldn't even know how 365 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: to use it myself. Really, do you ever feel like 366 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: you're missing out on it? Anything? No, you know, I somehow, Kat, 367 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: you have survived sixty three years without it. You know, 368 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: you have seven sevent thousand followers, So I guess it's 369 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: not hurting you so much? Is that? Um? The New 370 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: York Times tweets my column, so those are followers of 371 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: my column. So I'm thrilled by that. But I myself 372 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: because I don't. First of all, I changed my mind 373 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: all the time. If you asked me to tweet something, 374 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, immediately after an event, my reaction, I need 375 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: to stop, pause and think about it because I and 376 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: by the way, I may change my time my mind 377 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: three times over the next two days as I think 378 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: about it. So I would hate to be out there saying, 379 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, this thumbs up and then next day feel God, 380 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: I really should have made thumbs down and I gotta 381 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: write my column about it. But I have a tweet 382 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: out there on Monday saying this, so you know, I 383 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: just don't. And by the way, if I find out 384 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: about the fire of the earthquake, the shooting, uh five 385 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: minutes later from CNN and from Twitter, you know what, 386 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. You sound so reasonable. Let's talk 387 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more about this campaign. Why is the 388 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: country so divided. Hillary Clinton seems to be much more experienced, 389 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: more competent, but people are so uneasy about her, and 390 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of moral equivalence being made 391 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: between her fallibilities and Donald Trump's. Why is that? You know, 392 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: they say, Katie, that people after a while start to 393 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: resemble their dogs. You know, I hope I don't resemble mine, 394 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: because I have a seventeen year old Karen Terrier and 395 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: she is she's not looking so good. But I think 396 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: over time people start to resemble their problems. And what 397 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: I mean by that is, um, we have started to 398 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: really look like Sunnies and Shiites, Democrats and Republicans. That 399 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: not two parties divided by a different set of competing 400 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: ideas that must and cannon always should be able to 401 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: compromise in the middle but two different tribes who who 402 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: people now would say, I wouldn't let my kid marry 403 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: one of them? And the result is, um, we become 404 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: like the warring tribes in the Middle East. Not two 405 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: parties that go to Washington to govern and always find 406 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: a way to compromise in the middle but two parties 407 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: that resemble those in the Middle East and their philosophy 408 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: and their abiding philosophy in the Middle East is I'm strong, 409 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: why should I compromise? I'm weak? How can I compromise? 410 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: But they never look for that that common ground in 411 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: the middle that can serve both lives and elevate them 412 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: both at the same time. So that's so depressing, Tom. 413 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: You know, what do you do about that? I mean, 414 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: I think you're right. It's almost like we're in one 415 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: of those ovens, a convection of and right, you're just 416 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of sitting in in in your you're marinating in 417 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 1: your own juices and people you're listening to people who 418 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: agree with you. And my daughter Carrie, who's twenty years old, 419 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: said the saddest thing to me. She said, I cannot 420 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: I think about the Yates poem. Every day things fall apart, 421 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: the center cannot hold and and and it's just this 422 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: feeling of just kind of this huge fissure in our country, 423 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: almost like it's a fault line between two different America's. Well, 424 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: that's this is not a shameless plug, but that is 425 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: why I wrote my book. That is I was feeling this, 426 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: uh that after all my years in the Middle East, 427 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: um covering the Israeli Palestinian Conflict, Saudi Arena, Indian shiait 428 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: Sunni UM. I came back to America and it started 429 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: to look and sound and talk and feel exactly like 430 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: that part of the world. So I felt a need 431 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: to go back to my own roots in Minnesota, the 432 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: small suburb of Minneapolis where I grew up, which was 433 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: not like that, UM, which was a truly center right, 434 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: center left place where the commons worked. UM, that was 435 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: a healthy community. And to go back and try to 436 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: understand why it was that way, uh, and and really 437 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: to just reaffirm to myself that I didn't make the 438 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: whole thing up that um, it really was like that. 439 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: And then to see if those lessons can apply to today, 440 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: because I think that's the biggest issue. I still think 441 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: we're a center right, center left country, but our politics 442 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: does not reflect that at the national stage. That said, Katie, 443 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: if you want to be an optimist about America, stand 444 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: on your head, because the country so much better from 445 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: the bottom up than from the top down. If you 446 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: want to be an optimist, come with me back to Minnesota, 447 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: and I'll show you communities at work, um that aren't 448 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: being torn apart by this politics, where there still is 449 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: a sense of the commons where people do come together, 450 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: but it's it's not that way at the national level, 451 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: and I think it's much worse than the reality on 452 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: the ground in most of the country. Well, I think 453 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: wage stagnation. You know, this is another thing where you 454 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: hear different stories about the economy. I know you wrote 455 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: recently when you wrote your scathing column about Donald Trump, 456 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: uh that there is good news on the economic horizon. 457 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: But then when you hear about wage stagnation and you 458 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: read things like wages and benefits have essentially flatlined or 459 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: declined for four out of five Americans between two thousand 460 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: seven and two thousand fourteen, um, you you can see 461 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: why people aren't feeling like the economy is getting better 462 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: for everyone. They feel like the economy is getting better 463 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: quite frankly for people like you and me. Well, there's 464 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: no question that you know, there's nothing like a growing 465 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: economic pie to make people feel more generous, more pluralistic, 466 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: willing to experiment and reach out. And we had that 467 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: kind of pie in the eighties and a lot of 468 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: the nineties, and and we've lost that kind of pie 469 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: in recent years. Although there's lots of data now suggesting 470 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: that things are improving and coming back. Um, and that 471 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: the politics you see right now as a lagging indicator. 472 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot of thriving communities around the country. You know. 473 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: Come with me to Raleigh, to Austin, to Minorapoulis, to Seattle, 474 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: you know. And I will also tell you the number 475 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 1: of people who, you know, thanks to this world, can 476 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: now start businesses on their own, get educated online in 477 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: ways they never could before. Um. You know, there's the 478 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: thing about globalization. You know, people think because I wrote 479 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: The World Is Flat that Um, I'm somehow love with globalization. 480 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: If you read that book, it's very clear. I think 481 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: mobilization is everything, and it's opposite. It's incredibly democratizing, and 482 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: it's incredibly authoritarian. It's incredibly particularizing, and it's incredibly homogenizing. Uh. 483 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's incredibly empowering and secredibly disempowering. It all 484 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: depends what values you bring to the system. The system 485 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: itself is not inherently anything. The same globalization systems that 486 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: allows me to start a website or to write my 487 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: own novel now and put it up on Amazon dot 488 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: Com and not have to wait through way through fifty 489 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: rejection letters from publishers. That same system Okay, also, you 490 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: know shifts jobs and wages faster than ever. It's all 491 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: about what values we bring to it. It seems to 492 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: me Hillary Clinton has a big opening, right. Donald Trump 493 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: is is trashing free trade, he's fat trashing China, He's 494 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: trashing a lot of things. But I don't hear a 495 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: lot of how are we going to fix things? How 496 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: are you going to adjust to this new reality? If 497 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: you will, do you think that she's communicated properly, like 498 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: how we navigate this? Well, you know they will tell you. 499 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: You go to their website. It's full of job creating 500 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: ideas and educating ideas and how to get debt free 501 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: college and um those kind of things. So I wouldn't 502 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: want to make a blanket statement because I think there 503 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: is a lot of beef and substance there. But I 504 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: don't think she's communicated it people. It's always been my view. 505 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: People don't listen through their ears. They listen through their stomach. 506 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: If I connect with you on a gut level, O, Katie, 507 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: you're gonna say to me, Tom, I trust you don't 508 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: bother me with the details. If I don't connect with 509 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: you on a gut level, you're gonna say to me, Tom, 510 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: could you show me those details one more time? And um, 511 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: for any number of reasons, I think Hillary has failed 512 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: to connect with people on a gut level, that she 513 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: understands the problem and has the solutions and a part 514 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,719 Speaker 1: of it she's up against. Just she's just been around 515 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 1: a long time, you know. So it's just so you know, 516 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: he sucks all the oxygen out of the room because 517 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: he he says all these crazy things. I mean, he 518 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: just sucks all the auctions. Yeah, and she's she's been 519 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: around a long time. She's a serious woman trying to 520 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: make serious arguments. They're kind of boring. That's the nature 521 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: of serious arguments. Um Uh, it's much more thrilling to 522 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: have someone you know, I tell you I'm going to 523 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: make America great again and and not tell you how 524 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: that I have a secret plan to destroy isis. But 525 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how. Um. What I think can't 526 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: be excused is for any number of reasons, she's not 527 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: a natural politician to begin with. You, she has not 528 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: made that gut connection with people, and and therefore there's 529 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people who want to keep seeing the 530 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: details do you think that's going to cost her in November, 531 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: that inability to connect on that gut level. Well, there's 532 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: one thing I absolutely haven't done from the beginning, kid, 533 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't do not. I would not predict this election. 534 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: If you look at Brexit vote in the UK, um, 535 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: if you look at the Columbia vote that just came 536 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: through about whether to do their peace deal with their guerrillas. Um. 537 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: I think these publics are very volatile, and I would 538 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: make no predictions about this election. Do you think we 539 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: might have a U S version of Brexit here? Because 540 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: you know, I thought about the parallels actually coming here today, 541 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: about the fact that so many young people didn't vote, 542 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,959 Speaker 1: and about how all the people who did were mostly 543 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: in rural areas. London overwhelmingly didn't want Brexit, but a 544 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: lot of other places in the UK did. And I think, gosh, 545 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: the parallels are uncanny in some ways. No question, and 546 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: I I just don't don't rule anything in, but I 547 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: sure don't rule anything out. I'll be I'll be a 548 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: very interested observer on the evening of election day before 549 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: we go. I have to ask you about Anne, your wife, 550 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: who you have read all your columns before you hand 551 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: them in, tell me why you do that and what 552 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: kind of UM input do you value from your wife? 553 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: Be careful, she might be listening. Sure. My wife is 554 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: First of all, she is a professional editor. She was 555 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: editor uh, copy editor for Institutional Investor when we met, 556 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: actually magazine um or soon after we met and um uh, 557 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: and then for HBO, So she is actually a copy 558 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: editor by profession. UM. Secondly, she's the most well read 559 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: person I know, and um, she's also the smartest woman 560 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: or man that I know. And so to have her correction, 561 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: by the way, it's my exactly, she's my ever as 562 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: my copy editor and editor and ideas person to bounce 563 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: things off of, uh is really one of the great 564 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: joys of my life. And also, UM, it's fun because 565 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: then she's involved in my column and she's involved in 566 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: my work, and it's not something I go off and do, 567 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: and so we really share these ideas. The biggest fights 568 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: we have in our marriage are over my column. I'm 569 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: not taking that word out. It's my column. I'm not 570 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: taking that word out exactly. So, but it's a it's 571 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: been a source of great joy. It's not only my columns, 572 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: my books. That's something we do together and share. Do 573 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: you get ideas from man? Do you talk about sort 574 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: of things and then you say, you know I should 575 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: write about that? Yeah? I mean sometimes, you know, UM, 576 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: I pretty much generate almost all my ideas myself, you 577 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: know I don't. But UM, every once in a while 578 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: she'll send me something or but but there's never been 579 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: a column that you know, she's edited that she hasn't 580 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: made better. In closing, you know, I started this podcast 581 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: by talking about how anxiety written I am, about the 582 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: state of the Union, about this campaign, about where we 583 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: are as a country, about the fact that maybe we 584 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: need more people willing to run for president. UM. Tell 585 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: me why I should be optimistic. I'm going to save 586 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: a lot of money on therapy bills. Right again, you 587 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: should be optimistic, Katie, because when you get out of 588 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: Washington and you get out of the kind of bubble 589 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: you and I have to write about UM and talk 590 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: about UM. What you find is the country is still 591 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: a center right, center left country. UM. At the local level, 592 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: there's still an enormous number of people working together to 593 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: promote the commons. Uh. You see, if you go to 594 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: towns all over the country, you'll see businesses trying to 595 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: work with local educators and local government and local philanthropies 596 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: to upgrade their school systems to to help young people 597 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: become more productive and competitive workers. UM. I see so 598 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: many good things happening here and um and I'm not 599 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: this is not to flawed by book, but I found 600 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: in doing this book and going to communities, this is 601 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: amazing innovation going on at the local level. We actually 602 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: don't have to invent anything, we just have to scale 603 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 1: what's going on out there. Uh. It's still the greatest 604 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: country in the world. If only we had the politicians, 605 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: UM we need, deserve and should have at the national 606 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: level to take care of this gym. You know, I 607 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: have a friend from Zimbabwe, UM who I actually quote 608 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: at the end of my book because she she says, 609 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, you Americans kick this country around like it's 610 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: a football. But it's not a football. It's a faberge egg. 611 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: You can drop it, you can break it, so be careful. 612 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: That makes me cry a little bit, you know, because 613 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: I think people are so so quick to um trash 614 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: our country and trash the people who are who have 615 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: the courage to actually lead. Well, you know, I just 616 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: think everyone needs to um step up and appreciate. And 617 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: maybe because I've lived abroad and lived in a war zone, 618 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: in particular in the in a civil war and be 619 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: rout for five years. You know, when you do that, 620 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: you start to appreciate the public. You start to appreciate 621 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: the public square, the public school, the public institutions, UM. 622 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: The things that bind us together and that comments. You know, 623 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: that um, without which nothing good can happen. I've seen 624 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: people tear their commons apart in the Middle East, and 625 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm doing everything I can in my column, my books 626 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: to make sure that virus doesn't come here. Tom So 627 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: many people feel that neither candidate they don't like all 628 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: of the above. UM. And how can we get more 629 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: people engaged and not not in the process of voting, 630 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: which obviously is critically important, but get more people to 631 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: actually run for office. Well, it's again at the local level, 632 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: I think you do see it happening. But at the 633 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: national level, it's going to take someone who dares to 634 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: go out there with a moderate message and show they 635 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: can win. Barack Obama did in many ways, at least 636 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: try to. I wouldn't take this election as the be 637 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: all in the end all the sooner it's over the better. Um, 638 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: we survived a civil war, will survive this, I hope. 639 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: I still think at some point people are gonna understand 640 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: that this was just a moment of madness and we'll 641 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: get beyond it. Well. Tom Freeman is always great to 642 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: listen to a voice of reason in the seemingly very 643 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: unreasonable times. Thank you so much, Tom. I love talking 644 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: to you always and I'm really grateful. Thank you. It 645 00:36:53,920 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: was really my pleasure. A big thank you to Gianna Palmer, 646 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: Gretta Cone and the right Reverend John Delore. Garrett O'Connell 647 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: and Zack Dinerstein mixed this episode. And also a big 648 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: thank you to Mark Phillips for our terrifically music. And 649 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: thanks to all of you for listening on our next episode. 650 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: Samantha B, who spent more than a decade on The 651 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: Daily Show, well now, as many of you know, she 652 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: has her own show called Full Frontal with Samantha B. 653 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: It's the only American late night talk show currently hosted 654 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: by a woman. So what questions do you have for her? 655 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: Please leave us a message at nine to nine to four, 656 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: four six, three seven, and it is an answering machine. 657 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: Please don't be angry that I'm not Nanny the Foones. 658 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: Please subscribe, rate, and review our show because it helps 659 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: other listeners find us. We'll talk to you next time. 660 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: If you love podcasts, and you probably do. If you're 661 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: listening to this, you don't want to miss now Here 662 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,479 Speaker 1: This you'll be able to see more than thirty grade 663 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: podcast live on six stages. 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