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Speaker 1: up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot Fm. We've known each other now
Speaker 1: for decades. It's hard to believe it's been decades. It's
Speaker 1: gone fast for me anyway. Yes, and we've had lots
Speaker 1: of phone conversations, We've had many in person conversations, and
Speaker 1: every time that we've gotten to gather for an interview,
Speaker 1: you've interviewed me. So now it is both my pleasure
Speaker 1: and privilege to interview you to I'm outset with that,
Speaker 1: but I think it'll be a conversation, but that would
Speaker 1: be good. This is what I know about Beverly. If
Speaker 1: you want someone to direct you, Beverly is the person
Speaker 1: you want. So this is going to be our conversation. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're letting people eavesdrop on absolutely. That's my long time friend,
Speaker 1: Beverly Guy chef Doll. She's been at the forefront of
Speaker 1: the black feminist movement, teaching and heading the Women's Research
Speaker 1: Center at Spellman College. Another one of my friends and
Speaker 1: co conspirators is Emma Coleman Jordan. Emma was a colleague
Speaker 1: of mine back in the nineteen eighties. We were part
Speaker 1: of a very small group of black female law professors.
Speaker 1: I always wanted to be a lawyer. I thought of
Speaker 1: myself as a lawyer lawyer, somebody who is going to
Speaker 1: be in law to make money, but really to change
Speaker 1: the equality equation in my society. Amma and I have
Speaker 1: written and edited a book together and planned numerous conferences.
Speaker 1: I sit on the board of the center that Beverly
Speaker 1: created at Spellman College, and I've spoken there often. At times,
Speaker 1: all three of us have collaborated. These friendships have sustained
Speaker 1: and strengthened me for decades. I'm Anita Hill. This is
Speaker 1: Getting Even my podcast about equality and what it takes
Speaker 1: to get there. On this show, I've been talking with
Speaker 1: people who are improving are imperfect world, people who took
Speaker 1: risks and broke the rules. In this last episode of
Speaker 1: the season, I'm sitting down with two change makers who
Speaker 1: are also my friends. We remind each other to keep
Speaker 1: going when change seems impossible to achieve. First, I'm talking
Speaker 1: with Emma Coleman Jordan, who's an author and professor at
Speaker 1: Georgetown Law. She was there for me in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: one during the Thomas hearing. Emma helped organize my legal team.
Speaker 1: What made you want to support me? What made you
Speaker 1: go to that extra effort to become really actively involved? Well,
Speaker 1: actually I started just like asking you if you needed
Speaker 1: some law students to help out, and then when I
Speaker 1: saw that wasn't going to be adequate to the task,
Speaker 1: I became personally involved myself. I had some experience in Washington.
Speaker 1: I had been a White House fellow. I had been
Speaker 1: a special assistant to the Attorney General, and during that time,
Speaker 1: one of my responsibilities was to prepare for the confirmation
Speaker 1: hearing for Justice Sandra d O'Connor. So my eye and
Speaker 1: Tenna were up. I thought, oh, she's going into a
Speaker 1: bus saw And I could see the posturing that was
Speaker 1: being done in the news even though Democrats were in
Speaker 1: the majority. I could see the positioning in public statements
Speaker 1: that the Democrats were going to attack you. So that
Speaker 1: was just my reading of the Tea leaves based upon
Speaker 1: my experience in Washington. Well, that's all the more reason
Speaker 1: I want to ask, well, I in the world, ten
Speaker 1: that you decide that you were going to step into
Speaker 1: that mess because I could see and I'm sure there
Speaker 1: were many people and that fit this category that you
Speaker 1: would have just walked away. There were others who did
Speaker 1: just walk away. Yes, I know, but you decided that
Speaker 1: you were going to be not only active you were
Speaker 1: really essential to the formation of the legal team, but
Speaker 1: also you were essentially really in connecting me and understanding
Speaker 1: who I was. And one of the things that you
Speaker 1: did involved faith and our shared faith. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about that? Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that. It's something
Speaker 1: that's not widely known. But I'm a Baptist. You also
Speaker 1: and I thought, we're going into the lions Den, we
Speaker 1: need to pray. And I called my minister h Beater Hicks,
Speaker 1: who was then the minister in charge of Metro, called
Speaker 1: and Baptists and asked him would he come and pray
Speaker 1: with us the night before the hearings. And then on
Speaker 1: the day of the hearings he came to the hearing room.
Speaker 1: So we were in an anti room, you me and
Speaker 1: Charles Ogletree and Reverend Hicks, and he held our hands
Speaker 1: in a circle. We held hands in a circle, and
Speaker 1: he said, let us pray, and I remember feeling that
Speaker 1: whatever happened, I had the faith of my parents and
Speaker 1: my grandparents with me, and I thought, this is the
Speaker 1: right thing to do. Identified with you as a young woman,
Speaker 1: law professor, teach cover visual law, and I thought, this
Speaker 1: is not going to be a fair fight. There were
Speaker 1: so many powers stacked against you, all of the powers
Speaker 1: of the presidency going to be against you. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just Clarence Thomas. I cared about fairness and equality, opportunity
Speaker 1: for an African American woman who'd achieved at a very
Speaker 1: high level, and I thought, let's get in there and
Speaker 1: do it. I still wonder if it was my personality
Speaker 1: or my legal training that helped me to do the testimony.
Speaker 1: Part of what we know about these public hearings now,
Speaker 1: and what we learned really from nineteen ninety one was
Speaker 1: how the person presents herself is important. Part of my
Speaker 1: ability to testify had to do with the fact that
Speaker 1: I had been trained as a lawyer. I had been
Speaker 1: trained in part to see the law as a as
Speaker 1: a mediator, but also to see it as separate from
Speaker 1: personal interest and to take almost a detached approach. Do
Speaker 1: you see that as part of how I used my
Speaker 1: voice on that day. I think there was a fusion
Speaker 1: of identities there, your religious belief, your family connections. The
Speaker 1: most vivid moment for me was when your family came
Speaker 1: into the hearing room. You had that confidence that you
Speaker 1: don't learn in law school, a confidence in the rightness
Speaker 1: of your being, and I had that too. But we
Speaker 1: are definitely sisters in the law in that respect. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good way to put it. After the break,
Speaker 1: you'll hear from Beverly guy cheft Hall. In the months
Speaker 1: following the hearing, she helped me navigate the fallout for
Speaker 1: my testimony. I'm Anita Hill, and this is getting egan.
Speaker 1: In the first half of this episode, you heard from
Speaker 1: my friend and colleague, Emma Coleman Jordan. Now I'm speaking
Speaker 1: with longtime friend Beverly guy cheft Hall. Beverly is a
Speaker 1: black feminist scholar, writer and editor. She's taught at Smelbourne
Speaker 1: College for most of her career. We didn't know each
Speaker 1: other when I testified before Congress in nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: but she was watching the hearing at home in disbelief.
Speaker 1: As soon as it was over, she took action. She
Speaker 1: joined a collective called African American Women in defense of Ourselves.
Speaker 1: That group took out an ad in the New York
Speaker 1: Times in response to my testimony. The ad is striking.
Speaker 1: It's an open letter surrounded by sixteen hundred signatures. Before
Speaker 1: I ask you to talk about that, I want to
Speaker 1: say it just went such a long way in restoring
Speaker 1: me and assuring me that my black identity and my
Speaker 1: black identity as a woman was not going to be forgotten.
Speaker 1: You signed the ad, So tell me more about why
Speaker 1: you signed it, why it was done, and what it
Speaker 1: meant to the sixteen hundred women who signed onto it. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let me let me just say that not only
Speaker 1: did I sign it, but I got it framed and
Speaker 1: it's in my office. I'm looking at it now. It
Speaker 1: is to my writing, so I see it every day
Speaker 1: that I come into my office, and students also see it.
Speaker 1: So that mobilization, that mobilization of primarily black feminist academics,
Speaker 1: in terms of its a genealogy. We were trying to
Speaker 1: decide what can we do publicly, what can we do
Speaker 1: publicly to disrupt this racial script that goes back to
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century that says that black women cannot out
Speaker 1: African American men that our primary loyalty is to race,
Speaker 1: and that any kind of loyalty, any kind of gender politics,
Speaker 1: or any kind of gender loyalty, is something that we
Speaker 1: cannot do. This is this is a script that we
Speaker 1: get and we learn, and so black feminism emerges going
Speaker 1: back to the nineteenth century because of an intersectional lens
Speaker 1: and an intersectional politics which says that we are committed
Speaker 1: to the eradication of all isms racism, sexism, heterosexism, classism,
Speaker 1: and there's no contradiction at all in struggling to eradicate
Speaker 1: all of those and that even though we know we've
Speaker 1: got the script, we are going to speak out about violations,
Speaker 1: gender violations, including when African American men are the perpetrators.
Speaker 1: We were very upset about the placement of you, or
Speaker 1: the construction of you also as a pond of white feminists,
Speaker 1: as if there were no black feminists in the world,
Speaker 1: and so we wanted to make it very very clear
Speaker 1: that white women had nothing to do with your decision
Speaker 1: or your black feminist politics, that there's a black feminist
Speaker 1: history that goes back to Mariah Stewart, and that you
Speaker 1: were a part of that history. It's interesting that we,
Speaker 1: you know, were not able to have that heard in
Speaker 1: the same way that the lynching claim was heard. But
Speaker 1: it's not surprising because our history teachers teach about lynching. Now,
Speaker 1: we have the signs, we have the pictures, we've got
Speaker 1: the old postcards, but we didn't have any of that
Speaker 1: evidence that was available to show what was going on
Speaker 1: in the lives of black women throughout the period, even
Speaker 1: of lynching, and so it was really hard to get
Speaker 1: that message through. And I think we're beginning to do that.
Speaker 1: But all of this was going on at a very
Speaker 1: different time. And then you and I met. It was
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. We met because Spellman invited me to
Speaker 1: speak at the college. None of the other HBCUs did
Speaker 1: at the time. The invitation itself was important, even before
Speaker 1: I set foot on the campus, Just having that invitation
Speaker 1: was important. What were you expecting or hoping for for
Speaker 1: the students? What did you want them to see? So
Speaker 1: our students are accustomed to seeing black women who are successful,
Speaker 1: because you can be successful without being controversial or without
Speaker 1: taking difficult public stances around race and gender issues, you know,
Speaker 1: So we can invite corporate women, lawyers, other presidents. We
Speaker 1: can invite those kinds of amazing and wonderful black women
Speaker 1: to campus at Spellman, which we have done, but we
Speaker 1: thought it was also important for them to see a
Speaker 1: black woman dissident d I s s at D E
Speaker 1: n T. What John Lewis would say, a person who's
Speaker 1: making good trouble to be courageous and public, even when
Speaker 1: it is controversial, and even if your stance is likely
Speaker 1: to produce, which is what you experience of being demonized,
Speaker 1: being rejected, being called off, all kinds of names. But
Speaker 1: we wanted Spelling students to see that there are models
Speaker 1: for women like you. Well, I got there, and I
Speaker 1: hope that's what they saw. And you know, I spoke
Speaker 1: in Sister's Chapel right to me at the moment, it
Speaker 1: was this incredibly impressive space. So paint a picture for us. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: Sisters Chapel is probably the most sacred and I don't
Speaker 1: mean sacred in the religious sense per se. I can
Speaker 1: remember because I was a student from nineteen sixty two
Speaker 1: to nineteen sixty six seeing amazing people speaking Sisters Chapel,
Speaker 1: but they weren't mostly men. I heard Martin Luther King
Speaker 1: Junior speak in Sisters Chapel. It's the place where Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King Junior's casket lay for two or three days
Speaker 1: so people could visit. So it's a kind of place
Speaker 1: that people associate with these towering, big figures. So being
Speaker 1: invited to speak in Sisters Chapel as opposed to other
Speaker 1: places on campus signal to the community that this is really,
Speaker 1: really important. We were not sure, Anita, what the audience
Speaker 1: was going to be. Like you advertise, you say the
Speaker 1: students and fact of the members, please get your students out,
Speaker 1: And we a little bit worried about the fact that
Speaker 1: we might show up in Cisters Chaplan and have a
Speaker 1: tiny audience, especially given the fact that at the hearings
Speaker 1: and you were controversial. You know, that was buzzed during
Speaker 1: the day. But when we walked into Sisial Chapel and
Speaker 1: solve that audience, it underscored for us why it was
Speaker 1: important to invite you to Atlanta, Georgia, the home of
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement and two Spellman College because of
Speaker 1: its connection to black women's leadership and in more recent
Speaker 1: years it's connection to black feminist politics. You know, I
Speaker 1: remember feeling wonderful when I looked out at that audience,
Speaker 1: and because it was you know, of course the students
Speaker 1: from Spellman, but there were a number of folks that
Speaker 1: were clearly community folks. Yes, I had sort of taken
Speaker 1: a chance to come to Atlanta because I didn't know
Speaker 1: what to expect. I knew what I had been getting,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know what it would be like in person.
Speaker 1: But I knew that I had to go good because
Speaker 1: that was the only way to confront what I had
Speaker 1: been experiencing. The resistance. And I remember giving that speech,
Speaker 1: and I talked about speaking out against sexual harassment and
Speaker 1: the role of black women in history, on the issue
Speaker 1: and the role that we play in the value that
Speaker 1: we are to our community. But I think part of
Speaker 1: what stood out among the people in the audience was
Speaker 1: what I didn't say. Didn't say anything at all about
Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas. And I think there were people who were
Speaker 1: expecting me to finally just sort of be angry and
Speaker 1: maybe even vindictive, or to talk about the unfairness of
Speaker 1: the hearings, which there was plenty of that to talk about.
Speaker 1: But we realized, we both realized that all of the
Speaker 1: things that I could say that would be true may
Speaker 1: not help us move forward. Yes, you say, the buzz
Speaker 1: still out there. There were still all of these questions
Speaker 1: about how what to make of that hearing. It was
Speaker 1: important for me to try to create a path to
Speaker 1: move forward at and I just wanted you to know
Speaker 1: how importance Spellman was in that path as part of
Speaker 1: that path to be really a plea to join with me. Yes,
Speaker 1: because it wasn't a foregone conclusion. I remember you're saying
Speaker 1: that you were going to go back to your regular
Speaker 1: life as a professor in Oklahoma and that you would
Speaker 1: not be on the lecture circuit and out and about,
Speaker 1: and so I said, you know, I think that's a
Speaker 1: really good move on her part. And it was a
Speaker 1: good move until it wasn't, and then it was time
Speaker 1: to come out. You know, you're right. I had no
Speaker 1: intention of it. And I tell people, two days after
Speaker 1: I've been aact Oklahoma, I was in the classroom teaching.
Speaker 1: Of course, it was not great teaching, but I have
Speaker 1: to say the classes that I taught that year, even
Speaker 1: the first year law students who have of their own anxiety,
Speaker 1: they pulled it together and pulled me through so many classes.
Speaker 1: They were patient and carrying and you know, supportive, in
Speaker 1: ways that you just don't expect law students to be
Speaker 1: what you're observing, or all of the things that I
Speaker 1: think stick out to me too. The family and friends
Speaker 1: and the witnesses that came stepped up. We did what
Speaker 1: we came to do, which was to be heard, and
Speaker 1: we were heard, and we didn't change the outcome, but
Speaker 1: we were heard. And thirty years later, we're still being heard,
Speaker 1: and nobody expect to that. If you had to pick
Speaker 1: one lesson, what would that lesson be for moving us
Speaker 1: even further? The work is really important, and you do
Speaker 1: it over the long haul. You just can't give up,
Speaker 1: and you can't say, well, I've done this for about
Speaker 1: ten or twenty years and now it's somebody else's work
Speaker 1: to do. So I just have said to myself, Beverly,
Speaker 1: you will be doing this forever. The joys outweigh the challenges.
Speaker 1: I've always been very clear, having grown up in the
Speaker 1: gym and Jane Crow South, how challenging it is within
Speaker 1: African American communities to center gender politics. That is a
Speaker 1: big challenge and it is a lifetime project. And if
Speaker 1: you add sexuality, if you say I am as committed
Speaker 1: to the freedom of LGBTQ queer people. You're going to
Speaker 1: get talked about as a man hater and as a
Speaker 1: traitor to the black community, which should be familiar to you.
Speaker 1: And you say that's fine, and you're gonna get all
Speaker 1: kinds of bad names, and you basically have to say
Speaker 1: this work, as you said, it's not about me. You know,
Speaker 1: you say it's not about you, But I want people
Speaker 1: to understand that doesn't mean that it isn't personal. It
Speaker 1: is deeply personal the work that we do. It's not
Speaker 1: about you alone, but it's about all of us and
Speaker 1: all of our experiences. And in two thousand and three
Speaker 1: you wrote about your experience with partner violence. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I need I don't think I've ever said this to
Speaker 1: you or even privately, So let me just say now.
Speaker 1: Meeting you in nineteen ninety two as a result of
Speaker 1: those hearings, this was actually five years after the what
Speaker 1: I am calling domestic terrorism that I experienced for over
Speaker 1: a year in and out of court for assault, car theft,
Speaker 1: arson even And so when you came to Spellman, and
Speaker 1: you don't know this, when you came to Spellman in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, I was still dealing with that emotionally.
Speaker 1: So when I saw you giving that talk, I said
Speaker 1: to myself, one of these days, I don't know when
Speaker 1: it will be. One of these days, I'm going to
Speaker 1: speak publicly about my experience with sexual assault and see
Speaker 1: your book. Since your new book, Anita, I now for
Speaker 1: the first time call myself for a survivor, which which
Speaker 1: I have never done publicly or even privately. As horrible
Speaker 1: as the physical and part of that experience was, the
Speaker 1: thing that I also wrote about is that he put
Speaker 1: my name in public male bathrooms and telephone booths in Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 1: so strange men would drive by my house and call
Speaker 1: me in the middle of the night. And again, getting
Speaker 1: back to friendship, Bell Hooks, a long term friend who
Speaker 1: was visiting me. She and I went out at night
Speaker 1: with wind decks and paper towels to remove my name
Speaker 1: and number from public space. So thank you, Anita. Our
Speaker 1: evolving friendship is what motivated me to speak publicly for
Speaker 1: the first time I write about my experience with intimate
Speaker 1: part of a bowls. Friendship is a in so many ways.
Speaker 1: Because I'm gonna quote another pioneering black Faminists was well
Speaker 1: ahead of her time, Polly Murray, and she wrote that
Speaker 1: hope is a song in a weary throat. Do you
Speaker 1: ever get weary? Nope? And you know I think that
Speaker 1: I don't get weary because of my friendships. I mean
Speaker 1: this may no one has ever asked me that question.
Speaker 1: But no, I don't get weary. You get weary when
Speaker 1: when stress begins to consume you. And I find I
Speaker 1: find all kinds of frivolous ways to have joy, shopping
Speaker 1: at TJ Max's one. So no, I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: get weary because I have I also feel like, you
Speaker 1: know what my sister says, My sister Francine says, bever
Speaker 1: you you're surrounded with angels, and so I think that
Speaker 1: if you have angels and I'm not talking about in
Speaker 1: the Christian sense, and you have friends and you have
Speaker 1: important work, you don't get weary. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: say all the time, I am ever hopeful, and I
Speaker 1: honestly believe that, and really just to be with friends.
Speaker 1: And you know, I come from that huge family of
Speaker 1: thirteen and I have five sisters, but they're not the
Speaker 1: only sisters that I have. So Beverly, I'm just proud
Speaker 1: to have you as a sister. And to have you
Speaker 1: as a guide actually for the work that is being
Speaker 1: done and it still needs to be done. Thank you.
Speaker 1: As a poet, Audrey Lord wrote, without community, there is
Speaker 1: no liberation. With these friendships making change feels possible. You
Speaker 1: could say that Getty Even was the product of conversations
Speaker 1: I've had with Emma and Beverly over the past thirty years,
Speaker 1: from reclaiming black girlhood to critical race theory and the
Speaker 1: transformative power of art. They helped me develop my thinking
Speaker 1: on pressing issues I presented in this series, and as
Speaker 1: I wrap up this season, I think back on various
Speaker 1: conversations I've had and how they've elevated the voices of
Speaker 1: all of us who have been dismissed or even deemed unimportant.
Speaker 1: And after these conversations, I'm more determined than ever to
Speaker 1: help our society get even. Getting Even is a production
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by me
Speaker 1: Anita Hill. It is produced by Molaboard and Brittany Brown.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer is Amanda kay Wang,
Speaker 1: and our show runner is Sasha Matthias. Louis Gara composed
Speaker 1: original music for the show. Our executive producers are Mia
Speaker 1: Lobell and Lee Taal Mallard. Our director of development is
Speaker 1: Justine Lane. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane, Maggie Taylor,
Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Eric Sandler, Morgan Rattner, Mary Beth Smith, Jordan McMillan,
Speaker 1: Isabella Narvaias, Carle Migliori, Royston Beserve, Maya Kanig, Daniella Lacan,
Speaker 1: Jake Flanagan, Jason Gambrel, Ian Pesca, Sarah Brugier, Julia Barton,
Speaker 1: John Snars, Christina Sullivan, Carrie Brody, Jacob Wiseberg, and Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on
Speaker 1: all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign
Speaker 1: up for our newsletter at pushkin dot f M. If
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