WEBVTT - With a Little Help From My Friends 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.876 Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to 0:00:25.916 --> 0:00:29.396 Pushkin Plus and you can hear Getting Even and other 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:35.716 Pushkin shows add free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign 0:00:35.796 --> 0:00:39.796 up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:46.236 or at pushkin dot Fm. We've known each other now 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:49.036 for decades. It's hard to believe it's been decades. It's 0:00:49.036 --> 0:00:52.596 gone fast for me anyway. Yes, and we've had lots 0:00:52.596 --> 0:00:57.316 of phone conversations, We've had many in person conversations, and 0:00:57.476 --> 0:01:01.036 every time that we've gotten to gather for an interview, 0:01:01.236 --> 0:01:06.116 you've interviewed me. So now it is both my pleasure 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:10.636 and privilege to interview you to I'm outset with that, 0:01:10.916 --> 0:01:13.116 but I think it'll be a conversation, but that would 0:01:13.156 --> 0:01:18.116 be good. This is what I know about Beverly. If 0:01:18.196 --> 0:01:22.316 you want someone to direct you, Beverly is the person 0:01:22.436 --> 0:01:26.836 you want. So this is going to be our conversation. Yes, 0:01:28.676 --> 0:01:34.556 we're letting people eavesdrop on absolutely. That's my long time friend, 0:01:34.836 --> 0:01:38.236 Beverly Guy chef Doll. She's been at the forefront of 0:01:38.276 --> 0:01:41.996 the black feminist movement, teaching and heading the Women's Research 0:01:42.076 --> 0:01:46.076 Center at Spellman College. Another one of my friends and 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:51.316 co conspirators is Emma Coleman Jordan. Emma was a colleague 0:01:51.356 --> 0:01:54.996 of mine back in the nineteen eighties. We were part 0:01:55.036 --> 0:01:59.476 of a very small group of black female law professors. 0:02:00.436 --> 0:02:03.276 I always wanted to be a lawyer. I thought of 0:02:03.396 --> 0:02:07.196 myself as a lawyer lawyer, somebody who is going to 0:02:07.236 --> 0:02:11.636 be in law to make money, but really to change 0:02:11.796 --> 0:02:18.556 the equality equation in my society. Amma and I have 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:22.676 written and edited a book together and planned numerous conferences. 0:02:23.356 --> 0:02:26.116 I sit on the board of the center that Beverly 0:02:26.156 --> 0:02:31.276 created at Spellman College, and I've spoken there often. At times, 0:02:31.356 --> 0:02:36.196 all three of us have collaborated. These friendships have sustained 0:02:36.356 --> 0:02:49.996 and strengthened me for decades. I'm Anita Hill. This is 0:02:50.036 --> 0:02:53.556 Getting Even my podcast about equality and what it takes 0:02:53.596 --> 0:02:58.196 to get there. On this show, I've been talking with 0:02:58.276 --> 0:03:02.396 people who are improving are imperfect world, people who took 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:07.076 risks and broke the rules. In this last episode of 0:03:07.076 --> 0:03:11.516 the season, I'm sitting down with two change makers who 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:16.356 are also my friends. We remind each other to keep 0:03:16.436 --> 0:03:22.676 going when change seems impossible to achieve. First, I'm talking 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:27.076 with Emma Coleman Jordan, who's an author and professor at 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:30.916 Georgetown Law. She was there for me in nineteen ninety 0:03:30.916 --> 0:03:38.036 one during the Thomas hearing. Emma helped organize my legal team. 0:03:38.116 --> 0:03:41.916 What made you want to support me? What made you 0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:47.756 go to that extra effort to become really actively involved? Well, 0:03:48.236 --> 0:03:51.196 actually I started just like asking you if you needed 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:54.676 some law students to help out, and then when I 0:03:54.716 --> 0:03:57.396 saw that wasn't going to be adequate to the task, 0:03:57.476 --> 0:04:02.716 I became personally involved myself. I had some experience in Washington. 0:04:02.996 --> 0:04:05.556 I had been a White House fellow. I had been 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:11.756 a special assistant to the Attorney General, and during that time, 0:04:12.116 --> 0:04:18.356 one of my responsibilities was to prepare for the confirmation 0:04:18.596 --> 0:04:23.836 hearing for Justice Sandra d O'Connor. So my eye and 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:29.156 Tenna were up. I thought, oh, she's going into a 0:04:29.196 --> 0:04:32.796 bus saw And I could see the posturing that was 0:04:32.836 --> 0:04:36.756 being done in the news even though Democrats were in 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:42.956 the majority. I could see the positioning in public statements 0:04:43.156 --> 0:04:47.996 that the Democrats were going to attack you. So that 0:04:48.116 --> 0:04:51.436 was just my reading of the Tea leaves based upon 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:55.836 my experience in Washington. Well, that's all the more reason 0:04:55.916 --> 0:04:57.676 I want to ask, well, I in the world, ten 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:00.236 that you decide that you were going to step into 0:05:00.276 --> 0:05:03.596 that mess because I could see and I'm sure there 0:05:03.636 --> 0:05:06.836 were many people and that fit this category that you 0:05:06.876 --> 0:05:10.276 would have just walked away. There were others who did 0:05:10.556 --> 0:05:15.196 just walk away. Yes, I know, but you decided that 0:05:15.236 --> 0:05:18.996 you were going to be not only active you were 0:05:18.996 --> 0:05:25.036 really essential to the formation of the legal team, but 0:05:25.196 --> 0:05:31.916 also you were essentially really in connecting me and understanding 0:05:32.756 --> 0:05:36.636 who I was. And one of the things that you 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:42.756 did involved faith and our shared faith. Can you talk 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:45.796 about that? Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that. It's something 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:52.116 that's not widely known. But I'm a Baptist. You also 0:05:52.996 --> 0:05:58.196 and I thought, we're going into the lions Den, we 0:05:58.276 --> 0:06:04.836 need to pray. And I called my minister h Beater Hicks, 0:06:04.836 --> 0:06:09.316 who was then the minister in charge of Metro, called 0:06:09.436 --> 0:06:12.876 and Baptists and asked him would he come and pray 0:06:12.956 --> 0:06:16.916 with us the night before the hearings. And then on 0:06:16.956 --> 0:06:20.916 the day of the hearings he came to the hearing room. 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:25.476 So we were in an anti room, you me and 0:06:25.596 --> 0:06:33.876 Charles Ogletree and Reverend Hicks, and he held our hands 0:06:34.116 --> 0:06:37.556 in a circle. We held hands in a circle, and 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:46.196 he said, let us pray, and I remember feeling that 0:06:47.036 --> 0:06:54.116 whatever happened, I had the faith of my parents and 0:06:54.356 --> 0:07:00.556 my grandparents with me, and I thought, this is the 0:07:00.716 --> 0:07:07.556 right thing to do. Identified with you as a young woman, 0:07:07.676 --> 0:07:12.916 law professor, teach cover visual law, and I thought, this 0:07:13.556 --> 0:07:17.636 is not going to be a fair fight. There were 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:25.116 so many powers stacked against you, all of the powers 0:07:25.156 --> 0:07:29.396 of the presidency going to be against you. It wasn't 0:07:29.476 --> 0:07:37.676 just Clarence Thomas. I cared about fairness and equality, opportunity 0:07:37.756 --> 0:07:41.996 for an African American woman who'd achieved at a very 0:07:42.076 --> 0:07:47.036 high level, and I thought, let's get in there and 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:50.596 do it. I still wonder if it was my personality 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:56.636 or my legal training that helped me to do the testimony. 0:07:56.916 --> 0:08:01.396 Part of what we know about these public hearings now, 0:08:02.196 --> 0:08:06.356 and what we learned really from nineteen ninety one was 0:08:06.756 --> 0:08:11.556 how the person presents herself is important. Part of my 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:14.756 ability to testify had to do with the fact that 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.636 I had been trained as a lawyer. I had been 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:25.276 trained in part to see the law as a as 0:08:25.316 --> 0:08:30.236 a mediator, but also to see it as separate from 0:08:30.316 --> 0:08:35.836 personal interest and to take almost a detached approach. Do 0:08:35.916 --> 0:08:39.156 you see that as part of how I used my 0:08:39.316 --> 0:08:42.596 voice on that day. I think there was a fusion 0:08:43.396 --> 0:08:51.836 of identities there, your religious belief, your family connections. The 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:55.756 most vivid moment for me was when your family came 0:08:55.916 --> 0:09:02.676 into the hearing room. You had that confidence that you 0:09:02.716 --> 0:09:08.556 don't learn in law school, a confidence in the rightness 0:09:08.796 --> 0:09:15.156 of your being, and I had that too. But we 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:20.036 are definitely sisters in the law in that respect. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:20.076 --> 0:09:23.596 that's a good way to put it. After the break, 0:09:24.476 --> 0:09:27.516 you'll hear from Beverly guy cheft Hall. In the months 0:09:27.556 --> 0:09:31.996 following the hearing, she helped me navigate the fallout for 0:09:32.156 --> 0:09:48.156 my testimony. I'm Anita Hill, and this is getting egan. 0:09:48.756 --> 0:09:51.516 In the first half of this episode, you heard from 0:09:51.516 --> 0:09:56.156 my friend and colleague, Emma Coleman Jordan. Now I'm speaking 0:09:56.196 --> 0:10:00.356 with longtime friend Beverly guy cheft Hall. Beverly is a 0:10:00.356 --> 0:10:05.156 black feminist scholar, writer and editor. She's taught at Smelbourne 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:09.076 College for most of her career. We didn't know each 0:10:09.236 --> 0:10:12.316 other when I testified before Congress in nineteen ninety one, 0:10:12.916 --> 0:10:16.196 but she was watching the hearing at home in disbelief. 0:10:17.596 --> 0:10:21.356 As soon as it was over, she took action. She 0:10:21.476 --> 0:10:26.396 joined a collective called African American Women in defense of Ourselves. 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:29.156 That group took out an ad in the New York 0:10:29.196 --> 0:10:33.436 Times in response to my testimony. The ad is striking. 0:10:34.276 --> 0:10:41.036 It's an open letter surrounded by sixteen hundred signatures. Before 0:10:41.076 --> 0:10:43.436 I ask you to talk about that, I want to 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:48.636 say it just went such a long way in restoring 0:10:48.756 --> 0:10:52.676 me and assuring me that my black identity and my 0:10:52.836 --> 0:10:57.236 black identity as a woman was not going to be forgotten. 0:10:58.076 --> 0:11:01.436 You signed the ad, So tell me more about why 0:11:01.476 --> 0:11:05.076 you signed it, why it was done, and what it 0:11:05.236 --> 0:11:09.596 meant to the sixteen hundred women who signed onto it. Okay, 0:11:09.636 --> 0:11:12.476 so let me let me just say that not only 0:11:12.516 --> 0:11:14.556 did I sign it, but I got it framed and 0:11:14.636 --> 0:11:16.836 it's in my office. I'm looking at it now. It 0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:19.196 is to my writing, so I see it every day 0:11:19.236 --> 0:11:22.596 that I come into my office, and students also see it. 0:11:23.236 --> 0:11:31.396 So that mobilization, that mobilization of primarily black feminist academics, 0:11:31.596 --> 0:11:36.196 in terms of its a genealogy. We were trying to 0:11:37.316 --> 0:11:40.756 decide what can we do publicly, what can we do 0:11:40.876 --> 0:11:46.836 publicly to disrupt this racial script that goes back to 0:11:46.916 --> 0:11:51.756 the nineteenth century that says that black women cannot out 0:11:51.996 --> 0:11:57.356 African American men that our primary loyalty is to race, 0:11:58.356 --> 0:12:01.796 and that any kind of loyalty, any kind of gender politics, 0:12:01.916 --> 0:12:05.196 or any kind of gender loyalty, is something that we 0:12:05.516 --> 0:12:07.756 cannot do. This is this is a script that we 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:13.276 get and we learn, and so black feminism emerges going 0:12:13.316 --> 0:12:17.996 back to the nineteenth century because of an intersectional lens 0:12:18.036 --> 0:12:22.356 and an intersectional politics which says that we are committed 0:12:22.396 --> 0:12:29.156 to the eradication of all isms racism, sexism, heterosexism, classism, 0:12:29.236 --> 0:12:35.116 and there's no contradiction at all in struggling to eradicate 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:38.316 all of those and that even though we know we've 0:12:38.556 --> 0:12:44.676 got the script, we are going to speak out about violations, 0:12:44.796 --> 0:12:49.916 gender violations, including when African American men are the perpetrators. 0:12:50.596 --> 0:12:55.116 We were very upset about the placement of you, or 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:59.076 the construction of you also as a pond of white feminists, 0:12:59.636 --> 0:13:02.076 as if there were no black feminists in the world, 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:05.756 and so we wanted to make it very very clear 0:13:06.476 --> 0:13:10.436 that white women had nothing to do with your decision 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:14.636 or your black feminist politics, that there's a black feminist 0:13:14.876 --> 0:13:17.996 history that goes back to Mariah Stewart, and that you 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:22.236 were a part of that history. It's interesting that we, 0:13:22.796 --> 0:13:27.196 you know, were not able to have that heard in 0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:32.836 the same way that the lynching claim was heard. But 0:13:32.956 --> 0:13:40.356 it's not surprising because our history teachers teach about lynching. Now, 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:46.276 we have the signs, we have the pictures, we've got 0:13:46.316 --> 0:13:50.116 the old postcards, but we didn't have any of that 0:13:50.276 --> 0:13:53.916 evidence that was available to show what was going on 0:13:54.436 --> 0:13:58.516 in the lives of black women throughout the period, even 0:13:58.636 --> 0:14:02.116 of lynching, and so it was really hard to get 0:14:02.156 --> 0:14:05.876 that message through. And I think we're beginning to do that. 0:14:06.636 --> 0:14:08.956 But all of this was going on at a very 0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:14.076 different time. And then you and I met. It was 0:14:14.236 --> 0:14:19.556 nineteen ninety two. We met because Spellman invited me to 0:14:19.596 --> 0:14:24.756 speak at the college. None of the other HBCUs did 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:29.196 at the time. The invitation itself was important, even before 0:14:29.236 --> 0:14:32.396 I set foot on the campus, Just having that invitation 0:14:32.556 --> 0:14:37.316 was important. What were you expecting or hoping for for 0:14:37.396 --> 0:14:41.236 the students? What did you want them to see? So 0:14:41.836 --> 0:14:45.956 our students are accustomed to seeing black women who are successful, 0:14:46.716 --> 0:14:50.556 because you can be successful without being controversial or without 0:14:50.636 --> 0:14:57.036 taking difficult public stances around race and gender issues, you know, 0:14:57.076 --> 0:15:02.876 So we can invite corporate women, lawyers, other presidents. We 0:15:02.916 --> 0:15:06.596 can invite those kinds of amazing and wonderful black women 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:09.676 to campus at Spellman, which we have done, but we 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:13.156 thought it was also important for them to see a 0:15:13.196 --> 0:15:17.076 black woman dissident d I s s at D E 0:15:17.396 --> 0:15:20.796 n T. What John Lewis would say, a person who's 0:15:20.836 --> 0:15:27.076 making good trouble to be courageous and public, even when 0:15:27.116 --> 0:15:32.596 it is controversial, and even if your stance is likely 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:37.196 to produce, which is what you experience of being demonized, 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:40.516 being rejected, being called off, all kinds of names. But 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:44.396 we wanted Spelling students to see that there are models 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:49.596 for women like you. Well, I got there, and I 0:15:49.636 --> 0:15:52.996 hope that's what they saw. And you know, I spoke 0:15:53.476 --> 0:15:56.956 in Sister's Chapel right to me at the moment, it 0:15:56.996 --> 0:16:02.756 was this incredibly impressive space. So paint a picture for us. Okay, So, 0:16:02.916 --> 0:16:05.956 Sisters Chapel is probably the most sacred and I don't 0:16:05.996 --> 0:16:10.636 mean sacred in the religious sense per se. I can 0:16:10.716 --> 0:16:13.556 remember because I was a student from nineteen sixty two 0:16:13.596 --> 0:16:17.916 to nineteen sixty six seeing amazing people speaking Sisters Chapel, 0:16:17.996 --> 0:16:21.476 but they weren't mostly men. I heard Martin Luther King 0:16:21.556 --> 0:16:24.836 Junior speak in Sisters Chapel. It's the place where Martin 0:16:24.956 --> 0:16:30.596 Luther King Junior's casket lay for two or three days 0:16:31.196 --> 0:16:33.556 so people could visit. So it's a kind of place 0:16:33.596 --> 0:16:38.636 that people associate with these towering, big figures. So being 0:16:38.676 --> 0:16:41.556 invited to speak in Sisters Chapel as opposed to other 0:16:41.556 --> 0:16:46.076 places on campus signal to the community that this is really, 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:52.836 really important. We were not sure, Anita, what the audience 0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:56.756 was going to be. Like you advertise, you say the 0:16:56.836 --> 0:16:59.796 students and fact of the members, please get your students out, 0:16:59.876 --> 0:17:02.316 And we a little bit worried about the fact that 0:17:02.356 --> 0:17:04.636 we might show up in Cisters Chaplan and have a 0:17:04.676 --> 0:17:10.196 tiny audience, especially given the fact that at the hearings 0:17:10.836 --> 0:17:13.796 and you were controversial. You know, that was buzzed during 0:17:13.836 --> 0:17:17.116 the day. But when we walked into Sisial Chapel and 0:17:17.156 --> 0:17:22.836 solve that audience, it underscored for us why it was 0:17:22.876 --> 0:17:26.876 important to invite you to Atlanta, Georgia, the home of 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:30.676 the civil rights movement and two Spellman College because of 0:17:30.756 --> 0:17:35.596 its connection to black women's leadership and in more recent 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:39.476 years it's connection to black feminist politics. You know, I 0:17:39.556 --> 0:17:43.916 remember feeling wonderful when I looked out at that audience, 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:47.396 and because it was you know, of course the students 0:17:47.436 --> 0:17:50.436 from Spellman, but there were a number of folks that 0:17:50.516 --> 0:17:54.276 were clearly community folks. Yes, I had sort of taken 0:17:54.316 --> 0:17:59.116 a chance to come to Atlanta because I didn't know 0:17:59.116 --> 0:18:01.636 what to expect. I knew what I had been getting, 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:05.996 but I didn't know what it would be like in person. 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:09.676 But I knew that I had to go good because 0:18:09.836 --> 0:18:14.756 that was the only way to confront what I had 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:19.996 been experiencing. The resistance. And I remember giving that speech, 0:18:20.036 --> 0:18:23.676 and I talked about speaking out against sexual harassment and 0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:27.076 the role of black women in history, on the issue 0:18:27.196 --> 0:18:29.956 and the role that we play in the value that 0:18:29.996 --> 0:18:33.916 we are to our community. But I think part of 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:37.516 what stood out among the people in the audience was 0:18:37.556 --> 0:18:40.636 what I didn't say. Didn't say anything at all about 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:44.036 Clarence Thomas. And I think there were people who were 0:18:44.116 --> 0:18:49.316 expecting me to finally just sort of be angry and 0:18:49.356 --> 0:18:53.356 maybe even vindictive, or to talk about the unfairness of 0:18:53.396 --> 0:18:56.636 the hearings, which there was plenty of that to talk about. 0:18:57.596 --> 0:19:01.276 But we realized, we both realized that all of the 0:19:01.316 --> 0:19:04.796 things that I could say that would be true may 0:19:04.916 --> 0:19:08.916 not help us move forward. Yes, you say, the buzz 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:12.796 still out there. There were still all of these questions 0:19:12.876 --> 0:19:16.036 about how what to make of that hearing. It was 0:19:16.076 --> 0:19:21.636 important for me to try to create a path to 0:19:21.796 --> 0:19:25.036 move forward at and I just wanted you to know 0:19:25.036 --> 0:19:29.236 how importance Spellman was in that path as part of 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:35.636 that path to be really a plea to join with me. Yes, 0:19:35.796 --> 0:19:39.196 because it wasn't a foregone conclusion. I remember you're saying 0:19:39.196 --> 0:19:42.716 that you were going to go back to your regular 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:46.796 life as a professor in Oklahoma and that you would 0:19:46.796 --> 0:19:51.556 not be on the lecture circuit and out and about, 0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:54.396 and so I said, you know, I think that's a 0:19:54.436 --> 0:19:57.036 really good move on her part. And it was a 0:19:57.076 --> 0:20:00.836 good move until it wasn't, and then it was time 0:20:00.836 --> 0:20:04.116 to come out. You know, you're right. I had no 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:07.756 intention of it. And I tell people, two days after 0:20:08.316 --> 0:20:11.916 I've been aact Oklahoma, I was in the classroom teaching. 0:20:12.676 --> 0:20:16.796 Of course, it was not great teaching, but I have 0:20:16.916 --> 0:20:20.476 to say the classes that I taught that year, even 0:20:20.516 --> 0:20:23.396 the first year law students who have of their own anxiety, 0:20:24.076 --> 0:20:29.116 they pulled it together and pulled me through so many classes. 0:20:30.276 --> 0:20:36.316 They were patient and carrying and you know, supportive, in 0:20:36.436 --> 0:20:39.476 ways that you just don't expect law students to be 0:20:41.996 --> 0:20:44.956 what you're observing, or all of the things that I 0:20:44.996 --> 0:20:49.716 think stick out to me too. The family and friends 0:20:49.756 --> 0:20:53.556 and the witnesses that came stepped up. We did what 0:20:53.636 --> 0:20:57.676 we came to do, which was to be heard, and 0:20:57.756 --> 0:21:01.956 we were heard, and we didn't change the outcome, but 0:21:02.556 --> 0:21:06.916 we were heard. And thirty years later, we're still being heard, 0:21:08.036 --> 0:21:16.236 and nobody expect to that. If you had to pick 0:21:16.316 --> 0:21:20.996 one lesson, what would that lesson be for moving us 0:21:21.076 --> 0:21:26.196 even further? The work is really important, and you do 0:21:26.236 --> 0:21:30.676 it over the long haul. You just can't give up, 0:21:30.716 --> 0:21:33.836 and you can't say, well, I've done this for about 0:21:33.836 --> 0:21:37.236 ten or twenty years and now it's somebody else's work 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:42.756 to do. So I just have said to myself, Beverly, 0:21:42.756 --> 0:21:48.676 you will be doing this forever. The joys outweigh the challenges. 0:21:49.996 --> 0:21:54.356 I've always been very clear, having grown up in the 0:21:54.436 --> 0:21:58.836 gym and Jane Crow South, how challenging it is within 0:22:00.316 --> 0:22:05.996 African American communities to center gender politics. That is a 0:22:06.036 --> 0:22:10.596 big challenge and it is a lifetime project. And if 0:22:10.636 --> 0:22:14.436 you add sexuality, if you say I am as committed 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:20.716 to the freedom of LGBTQ queer people. You're going to 0:22:20.716 --> 0:22:25.196 get talked about as a man hater and as a 0:22:25.236 --> 0:22:28.796 traitor to the black community, which should be familiar to you. 0:22:29.436 --> 0:22:33.596 And you say that's fine, and you're gonna get all 0:22:33.716 --> 0:22:37.676 kinds of bad names, and you basically have to say 0:22:38.556 --> 0:22:44.716 this work, as you said, it's not about me. You know, 0:22:44.916 --> 0:22:48.556 you say it's not about you, But I want people 0:22:48.556 --> 0:22:52.076 to understand that doesn't mean that it isn't personal. It 0:22:52.196 --> 0:22:55.596 is deeply personal the work that we do. It's not 0:22:55.676 --> 0:22:58.156 about you alone, but it's about all of us and 0:22:58.276 --> 0:23:00.996 all of our experiences. And in two thousand and three 0:23:01.436 --> 0:23:06.796 you wrote about your experience with partner violence. Yeah, and 0:23:06.836 --> 0:23:08.516 I need I don't think I've ever said this to 0:23:08.556 --> 0:23:12.036 you or even privately, So let me just say now. 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:18.996 Meeting you in nineteen ninety two as a result of 0:23:18.996 --> 0:23:25.756 those hearings, this was actually five years after the what 0:23:25.796 --> 0:23:31.036 I am calling domestic terrorism that I experienced for over 0:23:31.076 --> 0:23:37.076 a year in and out of court for assault, car theft, 0:23:37.756 --> 0:23:43.196 arson even And so when you came to Spellman, and 0:23:43.436 --> 0:23:45.316 you don't know this, when you came to Spellman in 0:23:45.396 --> 0:23:51.876 nineteen ninety two, I was still dealing with that emotionally. 0:23:52.756 --> 0:23:56.636 So when I saw you giving that talk, I said 0:23:56.676 --> 0:23:59.716 to myself, one of these days, I don't know when 0:23:59.716 --> 0:24:01.876 it will be. One of these days, I'm going to 0:24:01.916 --> 0:24:09.356 speak publicly about my experience with sexual assault and see 0:24:09.436 --> 0:24:13.556 your book. Since your new book, Anita, I now for 0:24:13.596 --> 0:24:17.036 the first time call myself for a survivor, which which 0:24:17.036 --> 0:24:21.836 I have never done publicly or even privately. As horrible 0:24:21.836 --> 0:24:25.356 as the physical and part of that experience was, the 0:24:25.356 --> 0:24:27.636 thing that I also wrote about is that he put 0:24:27.756 --> 0:24:35.516 my name in public male bathrooms and telephone booths in Atlanta, Georgia, 0:24:35.756 --> 0:24:40.116 so strange men would drive by my house and call 0:24:40.196 --> 0:24:42.956 me in the middle of the night. And again, getting 0:24:42.956 --> 0:24:45.956 back to friendship, Bell Hooks, a long term friend who 0:24:45.996 --> 0:24:49.916 was visiting me. She and I went out at night 0:24:49.956 --> 0:24:53.796 with wind decks and paper towels to remove my name 0:24:53.876 --> 0:24:57.996 and number from public space. So thank you, Anita. Our 0:24:58.116 --> 0:25:03.516 evolving friendship is what motivated me to speak publicly for 0:25:03.556 --> 0:25:06.876 the first time I write about my experience with intimate 0:25:06.876 --> 0:25:10.236 part of a bowls. Friendship is a in so many ways. 0:25:10.396 --> 0:25:15.276 Because I'm gonna quote another pioneering black Faminists was well 0:25:15.316 --> 0:25:18.636 ahead of her time, Polly Murray, and she wrote that 0:25:18.716 --> 0:25:23.116 hope is a song in a weary throat. Do you 0:25:23.196 --> 0:25:29.636 ever get weary? Nope? And you know I think that 0:25:29.676 --> 0:25:33.436 I don't get weary because of my friendships. I mean 0:25:33.516 --> 0:25:35.756 this may no one has ever asked me that question. 0:25:36.836 --> 0:25:40.276 But no, I don't get weary. You get weary when 0:25:40.316 --> 0:25:44.916 when stress begins to consume you. And I find I 0:25:44.956 --> 0:25:48.596 find all kinds of frivolous ways to have joy, shopping 0:25:48.596 --> 0:25:52.156 at TJ Max's one. So no, I don't. I don't 0:25:52.196 --> 0:25:54.636 get weary because I have I also feel like, you 0:25:54.676 --> 0:25:56.996 know what my sister says, My sister Francine says, bever 0:25:57.116 --> 0:26:00.756 you you're surrounded with angels, and so I think that 0:26:00.796 --> 0:26:04.396 if you have angels and I'm not talking about in 0:26:04.436 --> 0:26:07.076 the Christian sense, and you have friends and you have 0:26:08.156 --> 0:26:12.876 important work, you don't get weary. Yeah, you know, I 0:26:13.276 --> 0:26:17.196 say all the time, I am ever hopeful, and I 0:26:17.236 --> 0:26:22.396 honestly believe that, and really just to be with friends. 0:26:22.876 --> 0:26:25.036 And you know, I come from that huge family of 0:26:25.076 --> 0:26:28.716 thirteen and I have five sisters, but they're not the 0:26:28.756 --> 0:26:32.916 only sisters that I have. So Beverly, I'm just proud 0:26:32.996 --> 0:26:37.076 to have you as a sister. And to have you 0:26:37.236 --> 0:26:41.796 as a guide actually for the work that is being 0:26:41.796 --> 0:26:45.076 done and it still needs to be done. Thank you. 0:26:50.636 --> 0:26:54.596 As a poet, Audrey Lord wrote, without community, there is 0:26:54.716 --> 0:27:01.996 no liberation. With these friendships making change feels possible. You 0:27:02.076 --> 0:27:05.796 could say that Getty Even was the product of conversations 0:27:05.836 --> 0:27:09.036 I've had with Emma and Beverly over the past thirty years, 0:27:10.076 --> 0:27:14.476 from reclaiming black girlhood to critical race theory and the 0:27:14.476 --> 0:27:19.556 transformative power of art. They helped me develop my thinking 0:27:19.796 --> 0:27:24.196 on pressing issues I presented in this series, and as 0:27:24.196 --> 0:27:28.316 I wrap up this season, I think back on various 0:27:28.356 --> 0:27:32.436 conversations I've had and how they've elevated the voices of 0:27:32.516 --> 0:27:37.596 all of us who have been dismissed or even deemed unimportant. 0:27:38.676 --> 0:27:42.996 And after these conversations, I'm more determined than ever to 0:27:43.036 --> 0:27:55.636 help our society get even. Getting Even is a production 0:27:55.676 --> 0:27:58.596 of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by me 0:27:58.916 --> 0:28:03.316 Anita Hill. It is produced by Molaboard and Brittany Brown. 0:28:03.956 --> 0:28:07.996 Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer is Amanda kay Wang, 0:28:08.476 --> 0:28:14.076 and our show runner is Sasha Matthias. Louis Gara composed 0:28:14.076 --> 0:28:18.916 original music for the show. Our executive producers are Mia 0:28:19.156 --> 0:28:23.876 Lobell and Lee Taal Mallard. Our director of development is 0:28:23.956 --> 0:28:30.876 Justine Lane. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane, Maggie Taylor, 0:28:31.396 --> 0:28:39.116 Nicole Morano, Eric Sandler, Morgan Rattner, Mary Beth Smith, Jordan McMillan, 0:28:40.076 --> 0:28:49.636 Isabella Narvaias, Carle Migliori, Royston Beserve, Maya Kanig, Daniella Lacan, 0:28:50.516 --> 0:28:58.636 Jake Flanagan, Jason Gambrel, Ian Pesca, Sarah Brugier, Julia Barton, 0:28:59.276 --> 0:29:08.516 John Snars, Christina Sullivan, Carrie Brody, Jacob Wiseberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. 0:29:09.436 --> 0:29:13.756 You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and 0:29:13.916 --> 0:29:18.436 on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on 0:29:18.556 --> 0:29:22.996 all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign 0:29:23.076 --> 0:29:27.276 up for our newsletter at pushkin dot f M. If 0:29:27.276 --> 0:29:31.276 you love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider 0:29:31.516 --> 0:29:35.716 subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and you 0:29:35.756 --> 0:29:39.796 can hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows add free 0:29:40.396 --> 0:29:45.156 and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting 0:29:45.196 --> 0:29:51.276 Even show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. 0:29:51.316 --> 0:29:56.036 To find more Pushkin podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio, app, 0:29:56.716 --> 0:30:00.396 Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.