WEBVTT - S8 Ep4 | Constitutional Violation 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.719 I grew up on an island called Wikenham. It's an 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:14.640 island in the Zukuba River and it's a low right 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:20.080 at about or even below sea level. An important feature 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.880 you will notice on the island is there is what 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:28.120 we call this sea wall or sea dam that's necessary 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.600 for keeping the ocean out. 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:38.040 This is doctor Troy Thomas. He's a math professor at 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.959 the University of Guyana. It's easy to tell when you're 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.320 talking to him he's a professor. That quick description of 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.280 his home island you just heard it actually spanned about 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.800 five minutes because he wanted to explain a few things 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.840 along the way, like what sort of island Wiknam is. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:59.920 It's not a rock sticking up in the ocean, quite 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.480 like we might have for a lot of Caribbean islands. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:10.039 It's an island form from the position where the large 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.600 river brings down all this material from higher areas and 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.080 deposited at the mouth of the river. 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.640 There are more than three hundred islands like these in 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.480 the Essequibo River, which is Guyana's largest, and having to 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.440 keep the ocean out is not a problem that's unique 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:29.560 to waken them. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:35.959 Dana itself, while it's a large land mass, you'll find 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.520 that more than ninety percent of its population reside on 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:45.760 a narrow strip, the coastal strip, and that coastal strip 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.800 where the population resides is below sea level. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.640 That's not because Guyanese people have a particular affinity for 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:55.520 the coast. 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:57.680 And what happen is that a lot of the lands 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.760 on the coastal area would have been re claimed from 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.720 the sea, I think mainly by the Dutch. That's something 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:11.480 we inherited from the days of colonialism and slavery and 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.960 all that. You know, the colonies were really designed to 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.000 get labor in or if we can call that atrocity labor, 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.320 and to get whatever is produced out. That is our 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.120 legacy and that's where the population exists today. 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.840 Thanks to rising sea levels caused by climate change, the 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.560 people who live on the coast, ninety percent of the 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.840 country's total population are directly in harm's way. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:46.760 So what I've seen within my lifetime is that we've 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:54.000 been getting more frequent flooding where the sea is actually 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.360 coming in, and this seems to happen a few times 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:04.160 per year, and that has a knock on effects. If 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.520 you have salt water coming in, then it's going to 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.919 start to affect farming. It's going to affect animals. It's 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:15.520 not just the say, the inconvenience of flooding. Now and then. 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.040 When Exon Mobile first discovered oil in Guyana in twenty fifteen, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.639 doctor Troy Thomas focused on the same thing everyone else 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.080 did the contract. At the time, he was head of 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:32.040 Transparency Institute Guyana, a government watchdog group, so he was 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.800 looking into the role that government corruption might have played 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.200 in the contract. That eventually led him to file a 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.160 lawsuit challenging the permits the government had given to Exon. 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.240 The law in Guyana stipulates that drilling and exploration permits 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.400 are only valid for five years and then you need 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.120 to reapply. But Exon had permits good for more than 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:54.160 twenty years. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:04:00.040 We actually got those permits reduced to the correct time. 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:04.440 For Doctor Thomas was represented by Melinda Jenkie and it 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.240 was one of her first attempts to block oil drilling 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.400 in the country. As time went on, doctor Thomas started 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.680 to think about the more long term impacts of the 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.240 offshore drilling project. 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:20.320 I have small kids. What kind of environment to be 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.000 leaving for them? And if you don't have the healthy environment, 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.640 you don't have the basis for anything that really. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.480 So he and Melinda Jankie started working together on a 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.800 different sort of case, one that takes the long view. 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.159 That's our story today. I'm Mimi Westerveld and this is 0:04:43.360 --> 0:05:01.640 Light Sweet Cruit. Last up, we talked about how Attorney 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:07.640 Melinda Jenkie helped shape Guyana's environmental legislation, including its constitutional 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.080 right to a healthy environment. In May twenty twenty one, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.960 Jankie went to court to defend that right on behalf 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.440 of doctor Troy Thomas and Kadad de Fritis. Defradus is 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.679 a young indigenous man from Guyana's South Rubenuni region, which 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.719 borders the Brazilian Amazon. They argue that the greenhouse gas 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.880 pollution created by petroleum drilling in the country violates citizen's 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.919 right to a healthy environment and that the government is 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.880 failing to do what the constitution requires of it to 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:45.200 protect the environment for the benefit of present and future generations. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.719 The case was filed against the Guyanese government, not Exonmobile, 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.240 but the judge in the case quickly added the oil company. 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.720 Their first course of action has been to try to 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.920 get any of doctor Thomas's testimony that mentions climate change 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.279 thrown out, even references he's made to Exon Mobil's own 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:11.119 internal documents about climate change. Their argument is, get ready 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.920 for it. He is not a climate scientist, but there 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.520 are tons of climate reports written for non specialists, including 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.880 most of those internal Exonmobile documents. 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.839 According to ESSU, climate change is a matter of scientific opinion. 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.039 Climate change is not fact. They say that all of 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:34.800 these things need to be proved by experts, and that 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.920 doctor Thomas is not an expert and therefore cannot say 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.080 that climate change exists, for that extreme weather exists, etc. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:46.440 In addition, we have quoted extensively, of course, from esso's 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.880 own documents, including the greenhouse Gas review that came out 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:54.240 I think round about nineteen eighty nine or sometime around then. 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.960 They say this is hearsay and they want to take 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:57.320 it out. 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.440 Their own documents are hearsay. 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.240 They say that their own document is hearsay and has 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.440 to be taken out. We have also referred to Darren 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.720 Woods's testimony on Oath to Congress last year in October 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.720 twenty twenty one, when he said that Exon Mobile has 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.640 long known about climate change, and they say that this 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.360 also is hearsay and should be taken out. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.880 In twenty twenty three, a new peer reviewed study into 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.360 Exxon was published in the journal Science by doctor Jeffrey 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.400 Soupran and his colleagues at Harvard University. It showed that 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:38.080 not only did Exon's own scientists suspect that burning fossil 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.760 fuels was changing the climate in potentially dangerous ways, but 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:46.800 that they were terrifyingly accurate in those predictions. I asked 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.440 Supran what he thinks about some of the arguments Exons 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.200 subsidiary ESO is making in Guyana. 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.960 Well, it's like, what do you say, is pretty fabergostering. 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.840 It does in some ways mirror, for instance, as the 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:06.640 tobacco industry's gradual shift in public affairs focus, you know, 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.440 from the West to other parts of the world. You know, 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.240 when regulation and campaigns and scientists have studied camping down 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.840 on them in the US and Europe, you know, they 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.600 started to target China and India and South America and 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:25.480 other demographics with equally if not more heinous or messaging 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.200 campaigns in tactics. 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:28.400 So clearly it's. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.560 Astonishing, right and at this point they're just contradicting what 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.880 they knew decades ago. They're contradicting what they say on 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:40.200 their own website. All I can say is tell me 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.679 where to go testify. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.480 Jankie is waiting to find out if the judge will 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.880 approve Exxon's request to leave several paragraphs of doctor Thomas's 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:56.319 testimony out, but Thomas is not overly concerned. He says, 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.080 either way, the argument and the ask are clear. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:05.559 It's not petroleum per se. It's not about Exo Mobile 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:10.000 or some specific oil company. It's that this thing that 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:16.559 we're doing has a net negative impact on our well being, 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:22.880 which our constitution seeks to guarantee. And it's nowhere being closed. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.640 It's nowhere near net zero or anything like that. It's terrible. 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.920 So then for me as a citizen, this is a 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.439 law of my land, and I'm saying to my government, 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.800 look what we have here, Look what you're doing. This 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.760 is operating outside of what the loss is. So you 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:48.600 can get into economic ventures, but your economic ventures cannot 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:53.320 have this scale of impact on my health and well being. 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.480 The question of balancing climate concerns with the need for 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:03.319 economic development is not unique to Guyana. Of course, it's global. 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.520 But there's a particular argument that's been growing louder as 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:12.760 oil companies FastTrack projects in global South countries. So when 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.480 you deprive people of fossil fuels, you deprive them things 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.559 like clean water. Alex Epstein is the author of a 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.680 book called The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels, which was 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.839 first published in twenty fourteen, but has had a bit 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.960 of a resurgence lately. That clip that you just heard 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:30.920 was from a talk he was invited to give at 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:35.200 Google in twenty seventeen. In his book, Epstein argues that 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:40.079 fossil fuel use correlates with increased life expectancy and improved 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.160 well being. He also argues that fossil fuels are cheap 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.720 and abundant, and that their benefits far outweigh their risks. 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.520 A whole army of pundits and politicians have begun echoing 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.240 this argument in recent years. 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.760 When push comes to shop, it's like, is it the 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.320 environment or poor people? If your idea is that we 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.679 have to limit growth, to say of the planet, If 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:03.520 we limit growth, poor people starve. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:10.400 That's Canadian philosopher and frequent Joe Rogan podcast guest Jordan Peterson. 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:15.560 Michael Schullenberger made similar arguments in his book Apocalypse never. 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.280 The idea that the Congo would need to limit its 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:19.959 emissions is offensive. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.720 Poor country, you should be able to get a hydroelectric gamor 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.000 or a coal plant or a. 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.400 Nuclear plant or whatever because they're poor, full stop. 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:28.880 That's it. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:30.560 There's no negotiation, that's it. 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.360 Fossil fuel lobbyists and spokespeople make this argument all the 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:39.319 time too. Of course, here is Mandy Gunnisakara, a spokesperson 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.960 for the CO two coalition, testifying to Congress during a 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:47.080 hearing on climate disinformation in twenty nineteen. 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.160 And parts of the developing world, life expectancy today is 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.559 ten to twenty years shorter, and children under five regularly 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.160 succumbed to preventable diseases. The reality is that we could 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.720 change these outcomes by sharing our six successful energy technologies, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.920 not by prohibiting their use as a result of misaligned 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:06.079 environmental policies. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.040 At that point in time, there was published research that 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.960 already showed that increasing energy use is not necessary to 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.360 increase life expectancy. 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:23.560 That's Julius Steinberger, an ecological economist at the University of 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.880 Lausan and a lead author on the most recent report 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.560 from the Inner Governmental Panel on Climate Change. Steinberger has 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.760 studied the intersection of environmental issues, energy choices, policy, and 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:37.439 economics for decades. 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.000 So, for instance, I published a paper all the way 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.120 back in twenty ten that showed that the amount of 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.880 energy required to reach high life expectancy is going down 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.200 and down and down over time. And so we already 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.079 had a pretty good level of knowledge to show us 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.120 that you need a certain amount of energy in order 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.760 to have some kind of a decent living standard. But 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.959 that amount does not require an insane amount of growth. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.319 It's not like everybody needs to get to the amount 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.160 of energy that the US is consuming on a per 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.640 capita basis. Far from that. You know, a tenth of 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.760 what the US is consuming on a per capita basis 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:13.480 would probably do. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.319 You find In most cases, the folks making these so 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.679 called moral case for fossil fuels don't deny that climate 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.200 change is happening. That's part of what can make their 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.000 arguments compelling. Instead, they argue that it's not as bad 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.200 as it's been made out to be, and that certainly 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.440 it is not worse than energy poverty that's a term 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.680 used to describe lack of access to a reliable energy source. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.520 They argue energy poverty is a much more urgent crisis 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.880 than climate change. It's one of those arguments that just 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.959 rings true on the surface. What's good for the gander 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.720 is good for the goose, right, And you've got to 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.839 solve more immediate problems like access to energy before you 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.439 can get into the bigger long term issues like climate change. 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.520 Got a walk before you run. It also leans on 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.360 a weakness in the climate movement, which is overwhelmingly white 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.560 and wealthy and therefore very susceptible to arguments like its 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:16.079 elitist to deny people in Africa the miracle of fossil fuels. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.880 Just to be clear, the reason that poor people starve 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.160 is a question of distribution. It is because of a 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:24.680 question of imbalance of power. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.560 As for the idea that it's elitist to deprive the 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.880 global South of fossil fuels, this. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:37.440 Is very important how we manage our emission in this 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.240 decays and so of course, so when I just see 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.640 that many countries are thinking in terms of fossil free, weell, 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.240 I just feel that, you know, those policies are not 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.840 really well informed by signs. 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.320 This is doctor Joyashri Roi, an Indian economist and lead 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.080 author of the chapter in the most recent report from 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.280 the Inner Governmental p Chanel on Climate change that dealt 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.560 with the issue of how to tackle development and decarbonization 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:07.000 at the same time. 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.760 I see as an economist, you know, I just see that, oh, 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.520 there is going to be there committing for so much 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:20.960 of stranded asset which will become valueless at very near future. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.200 What doctor Roy is talking about there is all the 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.000 oil and gas that the world won't want or need 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.040 as it transitions away from fossil fuels. These are referred 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.040 to as stranded assets, and oil companies have been worrying 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.480 about how to deal with them for years now. Their 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.960 current strategy is to drill as fast as they can 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.600 to make as much money as they can before anything 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:44.600 gets stranded. 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.760 What worries me is that when these decisions are taken 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.560 for the fALS and fueled expansion, I just feel that 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:58.320 how these countries would manage or aren't they having any 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:04.640 built in transition policy within that, because when the assets 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:10.080 becomes stranded and people are going to lose their jobs, 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.320 is there any social protection policy built in so that 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:21.240 the investments the employees are protected from job losses. That's 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:22.520 something which worries me. 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:27.200 Doctor Steinberger also notes that the idea of political compromises 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.280 around fossil fuel expansion is outdated and unscientific. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.080 So I think that this talking point is a bit 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:39.320 of a holdover, including in climate circles from days gone 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.520 by when there was more of a carbon budget left 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.560 for anything. Right now, it's pretty much negative. And so 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.960 the idea was, well, the global North countries should do 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.240 the utmost and pay the most to do that, and 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.040 the global South countries should have more leeway and more time. 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.800 That was a big topic of conversation in the nineties 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.600 and into the two thousand so when the Kyoto Protocol 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.920 was being hotly debated. It was the first international climate 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.159 treaty that would have required emissions reductions. At the time, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.879 it was the fossil fuel industry that fought hardest against 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:17.760 this idea. They used the fact that emissions reductions commitments 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:22.399 were not being universally applied to torpedo Kyoto. Here's an 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.280 example of how they talked about it. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.919 The US is preparing to sign a United Nations treaty 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.640 on the Global climate, but their global agreement isn't global. 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.200 One hundred and thirty two of one hundred and sixty 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.480 six countries are exempt. So while the United States is 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:42.240 forced to make drastic cuts in energy use, countries like India, China, 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.080 and Mexico are not. The countries responsible for almost half 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:47.800 the world's emissions. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.359 Won't have to cut back. Check it out for yourself. 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.359 It's not global and it won't work. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.720 Now. It's the industry arguing that global South countries should 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.960 be allowed to continue using and developing fossil fuels for longer. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:05.639 You know, it's a bit like the tobacco industry. This 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:10.240 is another sort of tobacco industry trajectory that the fossil 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.800 fuel companies are following. So the Marlborough men never died. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.680 I mean, of course he did diveline cancer, the real 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.080 malabor men. But he you know, the saying is he 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.840 never died. He just moved to Africa. And the fossil 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.760 fuel companies are kind of doing the same thing. They're 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.200 basically lobbying African governments and really trying to get across 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.000 this message that in order to develop, Africa needs fossil 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.159 fuels because of so much an action, because of the 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.560 great acceleration and emissions, that time is passed. We're no 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:41.199 longer in a time when that's a reasonable kind of 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.200 statement according to the math of emissions to make any more. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.560 So that's one issue. The other issue is that it 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.320 is no longer cheaper to build a coal power plant 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.840 than to build a renewable power plant. If you're basically 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.199 encouraging an African country at this point to invest in 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:02.840 fossil fuel electricity generation, and you're encouraging them to go 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.600 into debt and spend more and more money into the 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.679 future than they would need to for any renewable technology. 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:11.919 So that's also a very very questionable thing to do 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.280 on any kinds of grounds. The fossil fuel companies are 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:21.440 really trying to die in the global North, perhaps but 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:26.480 create ongoing almost colonial dependence in the global South. 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.600 Most media reports that have grappled with this so called 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:38.399 moral case for fossil fuels have criticized messengers like Alex Epstein, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.520 Jordan Peterson, and Michael Schellenberger reporting on faults in their 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:47.840 ideologies or past histories, but economic research has debunked the 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.000 message itself to there's no data to back up the 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.439 claim that we need to increase fossil fuel development to 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:56.360 solve poverty. 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:02.200 We can conclusively put in a coffin bang the lid 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:07.960 chut with big old males saying fossil fuel use does 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:12.960 not contribute significantly to improvements in life expectancy. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.199 Research from doctor Steinberger and other economists over the past 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.000 several decades has also found over and over again that 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.119 we do not, in fact rely on fossil fuels for 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.800 improvements to our quality of life either. 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.520 The first article that counters this and counters it in 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.600 a way that is extremely convincing and statistically robust and 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.160 so on, was actually published in nineteen seventy four in Science. 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:43.520 It's called Energy and Lifestyle. It basically says American quality 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.800 of life would be just as high if we used 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.000 a fraction of the energy we are using, and it 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.960 demonstrates it using a statistical method that is perfectly robust. 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:59.200 And so this idea that we need more economic activity, 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.639 more resource use, more energy use in order to have 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:06.119 high quality of life or health or living standards is 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:07.399 really quite false. 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:12.440 It's not just economic studies that show fossil fuels don't 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:17.920 actually correlate with improved life expectancy or increased per capita wealth. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:23.080 Does the promise of oil wealth actually pan out for these. 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:27.919 Countries generally does not pan out for anyone other than 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.000 the elites of those countries. That's what the record shows. 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.720 This is Steve Call, the journalist who wrote the book 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.920 Private Empire about Exonmobile. While working on that book, Call 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:43.200 spent years traveling to Chad and Equatorial Guinea in Venezuela 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.320 to get a sense of how Exon operated outside the US. 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.000 What happens is that the elites that control the resource 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:57.640 that produces sudden wealth and sudden opportunity generally don't distribute 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:04.000 the benefits equitably. Talking about some utopian socialist kind of 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:09.359 perfect distribution, but even just to reinvest it in a 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:16.560 sustainable strategy of private enterprise led development just generally doesn't happen. 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:21.000 And it's not just about the greed of elites. 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:22.280 It's also. 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:32.119 About the way sudden wealth distorts the patterns of investment 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:41.040 in a country. By essentially alleviating the pressure to educate 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:46.240 a new generation of young scientists and tech entrepreneurs or 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:50.280 wealth creators, or people who are going to figure out 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:53.720 how to save and improve agriculture in an era of 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:59.120 climate change, that all of these urgent problems that emerging 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:03.880 countries face in the global South. I mean, they get 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:08.560 displaced by the easy money that comes from a resource boom. 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.320 The example development economists most often give is a comparison 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:17.639 between South Korea and Nigeria. It's not a perfect example, because, 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.840 of course, there are non economic cultural reasons for the 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.520 way that countries developed to but it's an interesting contrast. 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:30.400 I mean, in the nineteen fifties, Nigeria and South Korea 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:35.199 had roughly the same per capita income, and they were 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:39.360 both very poor countries. South Korea had just emerged from 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:45.720 a terrible long experience of wargn occupation, and Nigeria was 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:51.199 blessed with this huge oil bounty, and South Korea chose 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.680 to kind of industrialize on its own without a lot 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.960 of resources, and in a single generation, one country got 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.920 rich and the other one cycled through the resource curse. 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:08.040 And economists point to that and say, statistically, Nigeria may 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:12.560 look like it had greater wealth, but in the experience 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:16.879 of its society, the wealth, you know, ran off shore 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:23.040 and often kind of displaced opportunities that Nigeria might have 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:27.359 had to build a more sustainable economy. 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:34.920 There are examples in North America too. In Canada, Alberta's 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.760 trillions of dollars in oil and gas revenues have benefited 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:42.840 companies tremendously, but its schools are carrying a fifty million 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:47.280 dollar budget deficit. In Louisiana, residents pay about ten percent 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:51.000 higher than the national average for energy, despite having been 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:54.720 an oil and gas state for decades. So if we've 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.520 seen this happen all over the world where oil makes 0:24:57.560 --> 0:25:01.240 companies and maybe a few key politicis and consultants a 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:04.800 lot of money but leaves everyone else worse off, then 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.520 why would it be any different in Guyana, especially when 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:12.960 there's nothing forcing it to be different. Here's Melinda Jenki again. 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:19.720 It is incredibly stupid for anybody to say, well, because 0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:24.159 you did something bad and broke it, we now have 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:27.800 a right to do something bad and break it even further. 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:34.400 It's morally indefensible, of course, but it is also incredibly 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:39.159 stupid because the climate, the global climate system, is precisely 0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:41.480 what it says, it's a global climate system. 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:47.119 Jenkie particularly bristles when that argument is disguised as a 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:52.560 concern for justice by NGOs and pundits who often suggest 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.760 that global South countries should be given more time to 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:58.200 transition off of fossil fuels. 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:05.200 Why would you say that when in every single former 0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:09.760 colony people are saying, stop the oil, we don't want it, 0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:14.840 and places like Uganda and Mozambaca, you know, they're putting 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:18.080 their lives on the line to stop oil. And you 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:24.159 sit in your comfortable university room and say, oh, well, 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:27.600 I've decided that I'm in the interesting justices. People shouldn't 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.240 have to get rid of the fossil fuels until twenty fifteen. 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:32.840 And in order to make this really. 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:35.760