1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: I grew up on an island called Wikenham. It's an 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: island in the Zukuba River and it's a low right 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: at about or even below sea level. An important feature 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: you will notice on the island is there is what 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: we call this sea wall or sea dam that's necessary 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: for keeping the ocean out. 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: This is doctor Troy Thomas. He's a math professor at 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 2: the University of Guyana. It's easy to tell when you're 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: talking to him he's a professor. That quick description of 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: his home island you just heard it actually spanned about 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: five minutes because he wanted to explain a few things 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: along the way, like what sort of island Wiknam is. 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: It's not a rock sticking up in the ocean, quite 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: like we might have for a lot of Caribbean islands. 15 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: It's an island form from the position where the large 16 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: river brings down all this material from higher areas and 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: deposited at the mouth of the river. 18 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: There are more than three hundred islands like these in 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: the Essequibo River, which is Guyana's largest, and having to 20 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: keep the ocean out is not a problem that's unique 21 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: to waken them. 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: Dana itself, while it's a large land mass, you'll find 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: that more than ninety percent of its population reside on 24 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: a narrow strip, the coastal strip, and that coastal strip 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: where the population resides is below sea level. 26 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: That's not because Guyanese people have a particular affinity for 27 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: the coast. 28 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: And what happen is that a lot of the lands 29 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: on the coastal area would have been re claimed from 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: the sea, I think mainly by the Dutch. That's something 31 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: we inherited from the days of colonialism and slavery and 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: all that. You know, the colonies were really designed to 33 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: get labor in or if we can call that atrocity labor, 34 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: and to get whatever is produced out. That is our 35 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: legacy and that's where the population exists today. 36 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: Thanks to rising sea levels caused by climate change, the 37 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: people who live on the coast, ninety percent of the 38 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: country's total population are directly in harm's way. 39 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: So what I've seen within my lifetime is that we've 40 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: been getting more frequent flooding where the sea is actually 41 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: coming in, and this seems to happen a few times 42 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: per year, and that has a knock on effects. If 43 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: you have salt water coming in, then it's going to 44 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: start to affect farming. It's going to affect animals. It's 45 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: not just the say, the inconvenience of flooding. Now and then. 46 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: When Exon Mobile first discovered oil in Guyana in twenty fifteen, 47 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 2: doctor Troy Thomas focused on the same thing everyone else 48 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: did the contract. At the time, he was head of 49 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 2: Transparency Institute Guyana, a government watchdog group, so he was 50 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: looking into the role that government corruption might have played 51 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: in the contract. That eventually led him to file a 52 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: lawsuit challenging the permits the government had given to Exon. 53 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: The law in Guyana stipulates that drilling and exploration permits 54 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: are only valid for five years and then you need 55 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: to reapply. But Exon had permits good for more than 56 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: twenty years. 57 00:03:54,640 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: We actually got those permits reduced to the correct time. 58 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: For Doctor Thomas was represented by Melinda Jenkie and it 59 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: was one of her first attempts to block oil drilling 60 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: in the country. As time went on, doctor Thomas started 61 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: to think about the more long term impacts of the 62 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: offshore drilling project. 63 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: I have small kids. What kind of environment to be 64 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: leaving for them? And if you don't have the healthy environment, 65 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: you don't have the basis for anything that really. 66 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: So he and Melinda Jankie started working together on a 67 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: different sort of case, one that takes the long view. 68 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: That's our story today. I'm Mimi Westerveld and this is 69 00:04:43,360 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: Light Sweet Cruit. Last up, we talked about how Attorney 70 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: Melinda Jenkie helped shape Guyana's environmental legislation, including its constitutional 71 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: right to a healthy environment. In May twenty twenty one, 72 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: Jankie went to court to defend that right on behalf 73 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: of doctor Troy Thomas and Kadad de Fritis. Defradus is 74 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,679 Speaker 2: a young indigenous man from Guyana's South Rubenuni region, which 75 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: borders the Brazilian Amazon. They argue that the greenhouse gas 76 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: pollution created by petroleum drilling in the country violates citizen's 77 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 2: right to a healthy environment and that the government is 78 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: failing to do what the constitution requires of it to 79 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: protect the environment for the benefit of present and future generations. 80 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: The case was filed against the Guyanese government, not Exonmobile, 81 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: but the judge in the case quickly added the oil company. 82 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: Their first course of action has been to try to 83 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: get any of doctor Thomas's testimony that mentions climate change 84 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: thrown out, even references he's made to Exon Mobil's own 85 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,119 Speaker 2: internal documents about climate change. Their argument is, get ready 86 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: for it. He is not a climate scientist, but there 87 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: are tons of climate reports written for non specialists, including 88 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: most of those internal Exonmobile documents. 89 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 3: According to ESSU, climate change is a matter of scientific opinion. 90 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: Climate change is not fact. They say that all of 91 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: these things need to be proved by experts, and that 92 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 3: doctor Thomas is not an expert and therefore cannot say 93 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: that climate change exists, for that extreme weather exists, etc. 94 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 3: In addition, we have quoted extensively, of course, from esso's 95 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: own documents, including the greenhouse Gas review that came out 96 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 3: I think round about nineteen eighty nine or sometime around then. 97 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: They say this is hearsay and they want to take 98 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 3: it out. 99 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: Their own documents are hearsay. 100 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 3: They say that their own document is hearsay and has 101 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: to be taken out. We have also referred to Darren 102 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: Woods's testimony on Oath to Congress last year in October 103 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, when he said that Exon Mobile has 104 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: long known about climate change, and they say that this 105 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 3: also is hearsay and should be taken out. 106 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three, a new peer reviewed study into 107 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: Exxon was published in the journal Science by doctor Jeffrey 108 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: Soupran and his colleagues at Harvard University. It showed that 109 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: not only did Exon's own scientists suspect that burning fossil 110 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: fuels was changing the climate in potentially dangerous ways, but 111 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: that they were terrifyingly accurate in those predictions. I asked 112 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: Supran what he thinks about some of the arguments Exons 113 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: subsidiary ESO is making in Guyana. 114 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: Well, it's like, what do you say, is pretty fabergostering. 115 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 4: It does in some ways mirror, for instance, as the 116 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 4: tobacco industry's gradual shift in public affairs focus, you know, 117 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 4: from the West to other parts of the world. You know, 118 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 4: when regulation and campaigns and scientists have studied camping down 119 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 4: on them in the US and Europe, you know, they 120 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 4: started to target China and India and South America and 121 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 4: other demographics with equally if not more heinous or messaging 122 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 4: campaigns in tactics. 123 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 5: So clearly it's. 124 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 4: Astonishing, right and at this point they're just contradicting what 125 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 4: they knew decades ago. They're contradicting what they say on 126 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 4: their own website. All I can say is tell me 127 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 4: where to go testify. 128 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: Jankie is waiting to find out if the judge will 129 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: approve Exxon's request to leave several paragraphs of doctor Thomas's 130 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 2: testimony out, but Thomas is not overly concerned. He says, 131 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: either way, the argument and the ask are clear. 132 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: It's not petroleum per se. It's not about Exo Mobile 133 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: or some specific oil company. It's that this thing that 134 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: we're doing has a net negative impact on our well being, 135 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: which our constitution seeks to guarantee. And it's nowhere being closed. 136 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: It's nowhere near net zero or anything like that. It's terrible. 137 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: So then for me as a citizen, this is a 138 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: law of my land, and I'm saying to my government, 139 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: look what we have here, Look what you're doing. This 140 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: is operating outside of what the loss is. So you 141 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: can get into economic ventures, but your economic ventures cannot 142 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: have this scale of impact on my health and well being. 143 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: The question of balancing climate concerns with the need for 144 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 2: economic development is not unique to Guyana. Of course, it's global. 145 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: But there's a particular argument that's been growing louder as 146 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: oil companies FastTrack projects in global South countries. So when 147 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: you deprive people of fossil fuels, you deprive them things 148 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 2: like clean water. Alex Epstein is the author of a 149 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: book called The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels, which was 150 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 2: first published in twenty fourteen, but has had a bit 151 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 2: of a resurgence lately. That clip that you just heard 152 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: was from a talk he was invited to give at 153 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: Google in twenty seventeen. In his book, Epstein argues that 154 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 2: fossil fuel use correlates with increased life expectancy and improved 155 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: well being. He also argues that fossil fuels are cheap 156 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: and abundant, and that their benefits far outweigh their risks. 157 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: A whole army of pundits and politicians have begun echoing 158 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: this argument in recent years. 159 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 6: When push comes to shop, it's like, is it the 160 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 6: environment or poor people? If your idea is that we 161 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 6: have to limit growth, to say of the planet, If 162 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 6: we limit growth, poor people starve. 163 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: That's Canadian philosopher and frequent Joe Rogan podcast guest Jordan Peterson. 164 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: Michael Schullenberger made similar arguments in his book Apocalypse never. 165 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: The idea that the Congo would need to limit its 166 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: emissions is offensive. 167 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: Poor country, you should be able to get a hydroelectric gamor 168 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: or a coal plant or a. 169 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 7: Nuclear plant or whatever because they're poor, full stop. 170 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: That's it. 171 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 8: There's no negotiation, that's it. 172 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: Fossil fuel lobbyists and spokespeople make this argument all the 173 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 2: time too. Of course, here is Mandy Gunnisakara, a spokesperson 174 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: for the CO two coalition, testifying to Congress during a 175 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 2: hearing on climate disinformation in twenty nineteen. 176 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 9: And parts of the developing world, life expectancy today is 177 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 9: ten to twenty years shorter, and children under five regularly 178 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 9: succumbed to preventable diseases. The reality is that we could 179 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 9: change these outcomes by sharing our six successful energy technologies, 180 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 9: not by prohibiting their use as a result of misaligned 181 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 9: environmental policies. 182 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 10: At that point in time, there was published research that 183 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 10: already showed that increasing energy use is not necessary to 184 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 10: increase life expectancy. 185 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 2: That's Julius Steinberger, an ecological economist at the University of 186 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 2: Lausan and a lead author on the most recent report 187 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 2: from the Inner Governmental Panel on Climate Change. Steinberger has 188 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: studied the intersection of environmental issues, energy choices, policy, and 189 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: economics for decades. 190 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 10: So, for instance, I published a paper all the way 191 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 10: back in twenty ten that showed that the amount of 192 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 10: energy required to reach high life expectancy is going down 193 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 10: and down and down over time. And so we already 194 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 10: had a pretty good level of knowledge to show us 195 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 10: that you need a certain amount of energy in order 196 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 10: to have some kind of a decent living standard. But 197 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 10: that amount does not require an insane amount of growth. 198 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 10: It's not like everybody needs to get to the amount 199 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 10: of energy that the US is consuming on a per 200 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 10: capita basis. Far from that. You know, a tenth of 201 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 10: what the US is consuming on a per capita basis 202 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 10: would probably do. 203 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 2: You find In most cases, the folks making these so 204 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: called moral case for fossil fuels don't deny that climate 205 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: change is happening. That's part of what can make their 206 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: arguments compelling. Instead, they argue that it's not as bad 207 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: as it's been made out to be, and that certainly 208 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: it is not worse than energy poverty that's a term 209 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: used to describe lack of access to a reliable energy source. 210 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: They argue energy poverty is a much more urgent crisis 211 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: than climate change. It's one of those arguments that just 212 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 2: rings true on the surface. What's good for the gander 213 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: is good for the goose, right, And you've got to 214 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 2: solve more immediate problems like access to energy before you 215 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: can get into the bigger long term issues like climate change. 216 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: Got a walk before you run. It also leans on 217 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: a weakness in the climate movement, which is overwhelmingly white 218 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: and wealthy and therefore very susceptible to arguments like its 219 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 2: elitist to deny people in Africa the miracle of fossil fuels. 220 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 10: Just to be clear, the reason that poor people starve 221 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 10: is a question of distribution. It is because of a 222 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 10: question of imbalance of power. 223 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: As for the idea that it's elitist to deprive the 224 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: global South of fossil fuels, this. 225 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 8: Is very important how we manage our emission in this 226 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 8: decays and so of course, so when I just see 227 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 8: that many countries are thinking in terms of fossil free, weell, 228 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 8: I just feel that, you know, those policies are not 229 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 8: really well informed by signs. 230 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: This is doctor Joyashri Roi, an Indian economist and lead 231 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: author of the chapter in the most recent report from 232 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: the Inner Governmental p Chanel on Climate change that dealt 233 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: with the issue of how to tackle development and decarbonization 234 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: at the same time. 235 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 8: I see as an economist, you know, I just see that, oh, 236 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 8: there is going to be there committing for so much 237 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 8: of stranded asset which will become valueless at very near future. 238 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: What doctor Roy is talking about there is all the 239 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: oil and gas that the world won't want or need 240 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: as it transitions away from fossil fuels. These are referred 241 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: to as stranded assets, and oil companies have been worrying 242 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: about how to deal with them for years now. Their 243 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: current strategy is to drill as fast as they can 244 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: to make as much money as they can before anything 245 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: gets stranded. 246 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 8: What worries me is that when these decisions are taken 247 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 8: for the fALS and fueled expansion, I just feel that 248 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 8: how these countries would manage or aren't they having any 249 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 8: built in transition policy within that, because when the assets 250 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 8: becomes stranded and people are going to lose their jobs, 251 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 8: is there any social protection policy built in so that 252 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 8: the investments the employees are protected from job losses. That's 253 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 8: something which worries me. 254 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: Doctor Steinberger also notes that the idea of political compromises 255 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: around fossil fuel expansion is outdated and unscientific. 256 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 10: So I think that this talking point is a bit 257 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 10: of a holdover, including in climate circles from days gone 258 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 10: by when there was more of a carbon budget left 259 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 10: for anything. Right now, it's pretty much negative. And so 260 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 10: the idea was, well, the global North countries should do 261 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 10: the utmost and pay the most to do that, and 262 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 10: the global South countries should have more leeway and more time. 263 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: That was a big topic of conversation in the nineties 264 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: and into the two thousand so when the Kyoto Protocol 265 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: was being hotly debated. It was the first international climate 266 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 2: treaty that would have required emissions reductions. At the time, 267 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: it was the fossil fuel industry that fought hardest against 268 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: this idea. They used the fact that emissions reductions commitments 269 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 2: were not being universally applied to torpedo Kyoto. Here's an 270 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: example of how they talked about it. 271 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 11: The US is preparing to sign a United Nations treaty 272 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 11: on the Global climate, but their global agreement isn't global. 273 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 11: One hundred and thirty two of one hundred and sixty 274 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 11: six countries are exempt. So while the United States is 275 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 11: forced to make drastic cuts in energy use, countries like India, China, 276 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 11: and Mexico are not. The countries responsible for almost half 277 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 11: the world's emissions. 278 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 2: Won't have to cut back. Check it out for yourself. 279 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 11: It's not global and it won't work. 280 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: Now. It's the industry arguing that global South countries should 281 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: be allowed to continue using and developing fossil fuels for longer. 282 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 10: You know, it's a bit like the tobacco industry. This 283 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 10: is another sort of tobacco industry trajectory that the fossil 284 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 10: fuel companies are following. So the Marlborough men never died. 285 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 10: I mean, of course he did diveline cancer, the real 286 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 10: malabor men. But he you know, the saying is he 287 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 10: never died. He just moved to Africa. And the fossil 288 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 10: fuel companies are kind of doing the same thing. They're 289 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 10: basically lobbying African governments and really trying to get across 290 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 10: this message that in order to develop, Africa needs fossil 291 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 10: fuels because of so much an action, because of the 292 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 10: great acceleration and emissions, that time is passed. We're no 293 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 10: longer in a time when that's a reasonable kind of 294 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 10: statement according to the math of emissions to make any more. 295 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 10: So that's one issue. The other issue is that it 296 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 10: is no longer cheaper to build a coal power plant 297 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 10: than to build a renewable power plant. If you're basically 298 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 10: encouraging an African country at this point to invest in 299 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 10: fossil fuel electricity generation, and you're encouraging them to go 300 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 10: into debt and spend more and more money into the 301 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 10: future than they would need to for any renewable technology. 302 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 10: So that's also a very very questionable thing to do 303 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 10: on any kinds of grounds. The fossil fuel companies are 304 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 10: really trying to die in the global North, perhaps but 305 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 10: create ongoing almost colonial dependence in the global South. 306 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: Most media reports that have grappled with this so called 307 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 2: moral case for fossil fuels have criticized messengers like Alex Epstein, 308 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson, and Michael Schellenberger reporting on faults in their 309 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: ideologies or past histories, but economic research has debunked the 310 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: message itself to there's no data to back up the 311 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 2: claim that we need to increase fossil fuel development to 312 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: solve poverty. 313 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 5: We can conclusively put in a coffin bang the lid 314 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 5: chut with big old males saying fossil fuel use does 315 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 5: not contribute significantly to improvements in life expectancy. 316 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 2: Research from doctor Steinberger and other economists over the past 317 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 2: several decades has also found over and over again that 318 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: we do not, in fact rely on fossil fuels for 319 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: improvements to our quality of life either. 320 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 10: The first article that counters this and counters it in 321 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 10: a way that is extremely convincing and statistically robust and 322 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 10: so on, was actually published in nineteen seventy four in Science. 323 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 10: It's called Energy and Lifestyle. It basically says American quality 324 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 10: of life would be just as high if we used 325 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 10: a fraction of the energy we are using, and it 326 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 10: demonstrates it using a statistical method that is perfectly robust. 327 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 10: And so this idea that we need more economic activity, 328 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 10: more resource use, more energy use in order to have 329 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 10: high quality of life or health or living standards is 330 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 10: really quite false. 331 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 2: It's not just economic studies that show fossil fuels don't 332 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 2: actually correlate with improved life expectancy or increased per capita wealth. 333 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: Does the promise of oil wealth actually pan out for these. 334 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 12: Countries generally does not pan out for anyone other than 335 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 12: the elites of those countries. That's what the record shows. 336 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: This is Steve Call, the journalist who wrote the book 337 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: Private Empire about Exonmobile. While working on that book, Call 338 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: spent years traveling to Chad and Equatorial Guinea in Venezuela 339 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: to get a sense of how Exon operated outside the US. 340 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 12: What happens is that the elites that control the resource 341 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 12: that produces sudden wealth and sudden opportunity generally don't distribute 342 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 12: the benefits equitably. Talking about some utopian socialist kind of 343 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 12: perfect distribution, but even just to reinvest it in a 344 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 12: sustainable strategy of private enterprise led development just generally doesn't happen. 345 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 12: And it's not just about the greed of elites. 346 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 13: It's also. 347 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 12: About the way sudden wealth distorts the patterns of investment 348 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 12: in a country. By essentially alleviating the pressure to educate 349 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 12: a new generation of young scientists and tech entrepreneurs or 350 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 12: wealth creators, or people who are going to figure out 351 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 12: how to save and improve agriculture in an era of 352 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 12: climate change, that all of these urgent problems that emerging 353 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 12: countries face in the global South. I mean, they get 354 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 12: displaced by the easy money that comes from a resource boom. 355 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 2: The example development economists most often give is a comparison 356 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: between South Korea and Nigeria. It's not a perfect example, because, 357 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: of course, there are non economic cultural reasons for the 358 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: way that countries developed to but it's an interesting contrast. 359 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 12: I mean, in the nineteen fifties, Nigeria and South Korea 360 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 12: had roughly the same per capita income, and they were 361 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 12: both very poor countries. South Korea had just emerged from 362 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 12: a terrible long experience of wargn occupation, and Nigeria was 363 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 12: blessed with this huge oil bounty, and South Korea chose 364 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 12: to kind of industrialize on its own without a lot 365 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 12: of resources, and in a single generation, one country got 366 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 12: rich and the other one cycled through the resource curse. 367 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 12: And economists point to that and say, statistically, Nigeria may 368 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 12: look like it had greater wealth, but in the experience 369 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 12: of its society, the wealth, you know, ran off shore 370 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 12: and often kind of displaced opportunities that Nigeria might have 371 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 12: had to build a more sustainable economy. 372 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 2: There are examples in North America too. In Canada, Alberta's 373 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: trillions of dollars in oil and gas revenues have benefited 374 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: companies tremendously, but its schools are carrying a fifty million 375 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: dollar budget deficit. In Louisiana, residents pay about ten percent 376 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: higher than the national average for energy, despite having been 377 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: an oil and gas state for decades. So if we've 378 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: seen this happen all over the world where oil makes 379 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: companies and maybe a few key politicis and consultants a 380 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: lot of money but leaves everyone else worse off, then 381 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: why would it be any different in Guyana, especially when 382 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: there's nothing forcing it to be different. Here's Melinda Jenki again. 383 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 3: It is incredibly stupid for anybody to say, well, because 384 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 3: you did something bad and broke it, we now have 385 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: a right to do something bad and break it even further. 386 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 3: It's morally indefensible, of course, but it is also incredibly 387 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 3: stupid because the climate, the global climate system, is precisely 388 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 3: what it says, it's a global climate system. 389 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: Jenkie particularly bristles when that argument is disguised as a 390 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: concern for justice by NGOs and pundits who often suggest 391 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: that global South countries should be given more time to 392 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: transition off of fossil fuels. 393 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 7: Why would you say that when in every single former 394 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 7: colony people are saying, stop the oil, we don't want it, 395 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 7: and places like Uganda and Mozambaca, you know, they're putting 396 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 7: their lives on the line to stop oil. And you 397 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 7: sit in your comfortable university room and say, oh, well, 398 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 7: I've decided that I'm in the interesting justices. People shouldn't 399 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 7: have to get rid of the fossil fuels until twenty fifteen. 400 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 7: And in order to make this really. 401 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 3: Fair, the first world should now immutually convert. 402 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 2: To renewable energy. 403 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 7: In other words, all the white people go straight for 404 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 7: renewable energy, dump the stuff on the third world. But 405 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 7: I'm doing this under the guise of a just transition. 406 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: All the white people go straight for renewable energy, dump 407 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 2: the fossil fuels on the third world. But I'm doing 408 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: this under the guise of just transition. Janki has a 409 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: very different view on the morality of fossil fuels than 410 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: the many global North white men who pontificate on the subject. 411 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: Guyana currently acts as a carbon sink. It absorbs far 412 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 2: more CO two than it emits. Janki says that instead 413 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: of embracing fossil fuel development, Guyana could sell carbon sink 414 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: services to the rest of the world and use that 415 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: money to transition to cleaner sources of energy. She worries 416 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: that the country's embrace of oil will destroy its natural 417 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: capital and leave it behind in the global push toward 418 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 2: energy transition, and that's way more dangerous than missing out 419 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: on fossil fuels. 420 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 3: I think it's really important that people stop thinking of 421 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 3: Ghana as a developing country that needs to be helped 422 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: and starts looking at us and saying, Wow, these guys 423 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 3: are a carbon sink and they are under threat because 424 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 3: of Exxonmobile and the other oil companies, and we have 425 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: a responsibility to rein in those oil companies because those 426 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 3: are oil companies coming from the global North. 427 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 2: For decades, global South countries have been asking for funding 428 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 2: the rewards environmental stewardship, including carbon storage, and for development 429 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: financing that enables a transition away from fossil fuels. Negotiators 430 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 2: from the island nation of Vanawatu first brought this idea 431 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: up at a UN Climate negotiation summit in nineteen ninety one. 432 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: More than twenty years later, in twenty thirteen, Yabsano was 433 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: representing his home country of the Philippines at another UN 434 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: climate summit when a super typhoon destroyed his hometown. 435 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 14: We have to ask ourselves, can we ever attain the 436 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 14: ultimate objective of the convention, which is to prevent dangerous 437 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 14: anthropogenic interference with a climate system. By failing to meet 438 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 14: the objective of the convention, we may have rapified our 439 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 14: own doom. And if we have failed to meet the 440 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 14: objectives of the Convention, we have to confront the issue 441 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 14: of loss and damage. 442 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: Sano made an impassioned plea at the meeting. He announced 443 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: he was going to start a hunger strike until rich 444 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: countries agreed to help countries like the Philippines prepare for 445 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 2: super typhoons and other disasters that will become more severe 446 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: and more frequent with climate change. Global North countries agreed 447 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: to create a fund of one hundred billion dollars per 448 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: year by the year twenty twenty. In the ten years 449 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: that have followed, those countries, including the United States, have 450 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: backtracked and minimized the small commitment they made. Instead of 451 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: focusing on compensation, Global North countries wanted to focus on solidarity, 452 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: sharing technical know how, and writing loans to countries that 453 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 2: are no longer able to get insurance as disasters become 454 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: more frequent and severe. But global self countries argue that 455 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: not only were they in this mess because of the 456 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: global North's chosen path of development, but also they were 457 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: too broke to deal with it because of colonialism. 458 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 15: It's that colonialism in the fossil fuel era reconfigured to 459 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 15: the world economy. 460 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: This is Harpre Paul, a human rights lawyer and an 461 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: expert in UN climate finance negotiations. 462 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 15: The Indian subcontinents share of the global economy shrank from 463 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 15: twenty seven to three percent between seventeen hundred and nineteen fifty, 464 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 15: and it's estimated that at the same time, the UK 465 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 15: benefited by approximately forty five trillion US dollars from its 466 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 15: colonial rule of the Indian subcontinent alone. And there are 467 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 15: similar stories to be told of colonial endeavors in the Americas, 468 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 15: in the African Continent and beyond. 469 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: In other words, the economic costs of climate change are 470 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: only the latest in a long history of economic extraction 471 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: and transfer of wealth away from global seuth countries and 472 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: indigenous peoples. The Loss and Damage Fund that rich countries 473 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 2: agreed to create was meant to begin to repay that 474 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: debt with one hundred billion dollars a year, but so 475 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: far contributions have fallen far short of that goal, and 476 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: any money that has come in has mostly been in 477 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: the form of loans that are putting countries further into debt. 478 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: It's been described as a climate debt trap. Here's Prime 479 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: Minister of Barbados, Mia Moli. 480 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 13: The bottom line is to build back, we have to borrow, 481 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 13: and when we borrow, it is added to our debt 482 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 13: to GDP. And when our debt to GDP raises, our 483 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 13: credit rates and drops, and then we are unable to 484 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 13: meet the basic fundamental demands that normally development requires us. 485 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 13: There has to be a recognition of being able to 486 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 13: isolate that debt which is necessary to build resilience or 487 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 13: to build back from a climate disaster, as opposed to 488 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 13: the normal aspects of development. 489 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: Instead, as Harjeet Singh, who's followed these negotiations for several years, explains, 490 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: polluters continue to receive incentives in the form of subsidies 491 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: from their home governments. 492 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 16: Yeah, getting subsidies to the tune of eleven million dollars 493 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 16: a minute, eleven million dollars a minute, and yet they're 494 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 16: not being held accountable and they're using these public resources 495 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 16: and further causing the problem. 496 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: In that context, it's easy to see why global salth 497 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: Countries with fossil fuel resources like Guyana are turning to 498 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,959 Speaker 2: the unlikeliest of sources, global oil majors to pay for 499 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 2: climate adaptation. Here's Antonia Juhas, the investigative journalist. We heard 500 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: from last time. 501 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 17: Ninety percent of the population lives on the coast, So 502 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 17: ninety percent of the population is expected to live in 503 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 17: a place that's going to be underwater by twenty thirty. 504 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 17: You're going to move ninety percent of the population where 505 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 17: there's no good example anywhere in the world of relocation 506 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 17: to where, because where in Guyana isn't impacted by climate 507 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 17: That's the other thing, isn't already being harmed by extreme weather. 508 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 17: And where's the money going to come from? So if 509 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 17: the money is supposedly going to come from the oil, 510 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 17: that means you have to drill the oil, which you're 511 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 17: going to burn, which is how you further destroy the climate, 512 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 17: so that you can move the people to get away 513 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 17: from the results of the climate crisis. You do have 514 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 17: to think about moving people you don't want them to 515 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 17: be underwater. But one really good step while you're thinking 516 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 17: about planning to move people is to stop the thing 517 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 17: that's forcing you to move them. Guyana very much wants to, 518 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 17: like many others in the world today, say that it 519 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 17: can pay to protect its forest by drilling for oil, 520 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 17: and it's a devil's bargain. 521 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 2: Jankie's not ready to accept that bargain. She's tireless in 522 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: her commitment to this work, but she's also fighting a 523 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 2: pretty solitary fight. Most of her countrymen don't want to 524 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: see the Guyanese industry killed off so much as they 525 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 2: want oil money to actually make their lives better, and 526 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: that includes the country's environmentalists. 527 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 18: So we have a relationship, as you know, with Exxon 528 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 18: Foundation and that's a long term grant for four years. 529 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 18: And yes, the obvious question is, you know, should we 530 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 18: be taking money from the oil company. 531 00:34:51,200 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: That's our story next time. Late Sweet Creep is a 532 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 2: drilled and Damage's co production. Both shows are critical frequency originals. 533 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 2: Our editor and senior producer is Sarah Ventri. Sound design, 534 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: mixing and mastering by Martin saltz Ostwick. Our fact checker 535 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: is Anna Prujel Mazzini, and our first amendment attorney is 536 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 2: James Wheaton. The show is reported and written by me 537 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: Amy Westervelt. Additional reporting by Keana Wilberg in Guyana and 538 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 2: Antonio Juhas in DC. We had additional assistants in Guyana 539 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 2: from Jamal Thomas, Salvador Deakerre's Wilderness Explorers and the staff 540 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: at Kaiman House. Special thanks to Michael McCrystal for his 541 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: help as well. Her theme song is Bird in the 542 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 2: Hand by Foreknown. The cover of The Godfather Love theme 543 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 2: is by Young Ones of Guyana and licensed from BBE Music. 544 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: Additional music by Martin Saltz Ostwick. Our artwork is by 545 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 2: Matt Fleming. Marketing is handled by the Great Maggie Taylor 546 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 2: pr and Ter Media outreach by the wonderful folks at 547 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: Tink Media, Lauren Passel, Ariel Nissenblatt and Devin Andrade. The 548 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 2: show is supported in part by generous grants from the 549 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: Doc Society, File Foundation, the William Collins Kohler Foundation, and 550 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: you are listeners. 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