WEBVTT - The New Yorker Goes Deep on LIV Golf 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.960 In a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.880 Frida Egg, Frida Egg Egg, Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:35.839 I'm about ready to run off of the hump. Welcome 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.600 to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:41.720 we're talking about what happens when The New Yorker magazine 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.160 does a deep dive on live golf. My guest today 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.080 is Zach Helfand, who's a writer and editor at The 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.720 New Yorker and for the past few months he's been 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.120 reporting a big feature story on the conflict between the 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.760 Sadi backed live circuit and the PGA Tour. That piece 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:59.920 will appear in the next edition of the magazine and 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.560 was published online earlier this week under the catchy title 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.880 will the Saudi's and Donald Trump Save Golf or reckon? Now? 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.240 Since it's part of my job to follow golf news, 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.119 I didn't really expect to learn anything new from this article, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.839 but I actually did. Zach does some really fresh reporting here, 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.560 even getting a sit down interview with Majed Alsor, who 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.000 doesn't do much media and is one of liv's most 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.440 important decision makers. So I thought it would be good 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.160 to bring Zach on the podcast and talk about why 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.480 The New Yorker got interested in live and what he, 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.440 as a relative outsider to golf media, made of it. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:33.640 All. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.640 To keep up with the Frida Egg, including our commentary 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.480 on the Battle for professional Golf, you can subscribe to 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:46.280 our newsletter at the fridagg dot com. So, Zach, you 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:48.760 are the editor of the New Yorkers Talk of the 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.600 Town section, right, Is that kind of what you're mainly 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:52.800 doing at the magazine right now? 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.280 Yeah? So I'm one of the editors. So it's me, 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:57.600 me and my boss, Susan. That's my day job. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.960 I ed to Talk in the Town and it's the 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.200 it's the section of short pieces that appears toward the 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.440 front of the magazine. I think people who've seen The 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.440 New Yorker will be familiar with it. Often very charming, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.239 sometimes a little hard to figure out, and that's that's 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.360 part of the mystery and a lure of them. So 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.880 you are not a golf reporter. I just want to 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.280 make that very clear. That's not your full time job. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.800 But you became a golf reporter to do this article. 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.880 But my understanding is that you have a background in 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.200 sports reporting, so maybe you could tell me about that. 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.320 What did you what did you write about previously? 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:35.279 I have been a temporary golf reporter on a few occasions. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.000 I'm definitely not a full time golf reporter, and I 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.880 think that it was to my advantage. You get kind 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.680 of the aliens view of the world that I think 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.480 people seem to have enjoyed. My first job was at 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.080 the La Times. I was a sports reporter there, mainly 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.440 USC and UCLA football basketball, a little bit of Dodgers 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.880 and a little bit of this and that here and there. 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.800 Before I was in LA when I was, you know, 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.480 interning at various newspapers, I covered a couple golf tournaments 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.560 here and there. So I did one FedEx Cup event 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.960 in New Jersey, which I think might be the only 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.639 golf tournament ever interrupted by an earthquake and a tornado. 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.679 There was a mini earthquake which interrupted I think Jim 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.120 Pureck's press conference and that's why I remember that. And 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.280 then I did a US Open at Marion when I 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.320 was an intern of the Philly inquirer, and that was 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.320 my only golf experience other than playing once or twice 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:33.760 a year myself, and that that's it. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.200 So the justin rose us open is what you covered 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:39.720 when you were at the Philly Enchoir exactly. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.880 Yeah, And I was mainly the gopher, just getting quotes 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:43.920 and running them back to the actual reporters. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.240 Well, so I wanted to establish that because you know, 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.440 although you have covered some golf tournaments, although you certainly 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.680 know enough to have reported this story, you do come 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.560 into it as something of an outsider, which, as you 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.440 alluded to, can be really really useful with a subject 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.880 like this that golf reporters live every single day and 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:09.640 kind of may end up taking a too narrow a 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.760 view of and so it's really useful to come in 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.600 from the outside. Did did you find that as you 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.640 were starting to report this story? Did you see that 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.520 as kind of a strength from the get go? 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.159 I think it helped me in two ways, the first 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:30.040 being this fresh view of it. There are things that 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.880 if you're a golf reporter there just covering the beat, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.760 you probably get numb too. There are things that amused me, 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.839 things that people would say. Just one of the things 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.240 is just kind of the self regard that golfers have. 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.040 It's you know, they kind of I think, you make 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.120 a lot of money and they give money to charity, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:50.719 and you think, all of a sudden, you're like this 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:52.520 great pillar of the community, and all you do is 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.440 just hit a golf ball, and they repeat it so 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.920 much that I think, if you're there every day, it 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.720 just just becomes numb. But those one of the things 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:01.000 that's like out to me. It's just kind of the 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.080 self regard. And I think it was that that the 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:09.400 fresh view helped. Also. The second thing is I I 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.880 came away. I wanted to be fair. I wanted to, 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.480 you know, take the merits of examine the merits of 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.000 both sides, but I also wanted to be to examine 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.160 the the ways in which both sides are being ridiculous. Uh, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.160 And when I needed to criticize. It's easier to criticize 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.200 when you then don't have to cover the beat every 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.560 day and you have to, you know, try to get 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.760 information from people the next day, Hey can you you 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.159 know what's going on with this story, and they don't 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:40.919 want to tell you because maybe they didn't like the 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.800 thing you wrote. So you feel like you could really 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.440 be free to to let it rip. 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.280 So in other words, you're you're not as worried about 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.000 burning sources when you're when you're just kind of dropping 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:52.360 in and writing one feature piece. 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.120 Exactly. If if if they told me, you know, you'll 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.520 never write another golf story in your life, I'd say, 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.240 all right, well that's that's that's okay. 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.760 Yeah, Well, so I wanted to get an idea of 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.000 what made you interested and what made The New Yorker 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.239 interested in this story in particular. You know, as somebody 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.080 who's in the golf world every day, I find myself 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.400 a little bit amused by the interest in live. You know, 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.159 I get asked about it at parties now, you know, 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.359 just like people as soon as they hear that I 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.479 work in golf, they're going to ask me about live. 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.440 And so this story really has kind of spread its 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.479 tentacles out to places that I wouldn't necessarily expect. And 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:37.719 although The New Yorker has done some fantastic golf journalism before, 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.599 especially by David Owen and others, usually The New Yorker 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:47.600 is not doing huge pieces on golf unless it's about 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.719 the Masters or something like that. So what was fascinating 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.080 about this story to you, and you know what made 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.400 you believe that you could find something kind of new 0:06:58.440 --> 0:06:59.800 about it in reporting? 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:07.200 To me, it was this relatively unimportant thing. It's a 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.760 relatively trivial thing. At the end of the day, it's 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.800 just golf. We like it, I like I like watching 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.040 and I want it to be a good product to watch. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.040 But at the end of the day, there are more 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.360 important things going on in the world. So it was 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:25.520 this relatively trivial thing that just touched on so many different, 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:30.280 maybe more important or more extension existential problems or issues 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.080 in the world. There's the geopolitics with the Saudi's, there's 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.400 the identity politics, and I you know, the the culture 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.560 wars that you kind of saw playing out between the 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:46.840 tour and Live. There is the question of morality and 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:48.520 when do you sell out and when do you not? 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.240 You know, I thought that's a really interesting question. I 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.200 didn't feel particularly finger waggy toward the Live guys. I 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.880 kind of viewed it as I think everyone's gonna everyone's 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.240 gonna have a price. And if I was offered one 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.040 hundred million dollars to go work for Live tomorrow, you know, 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.480 I think anyone would have to think about it. So 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:10.080 it was this small trivial thing that it could be 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.720 amusing that touched on so many different things in amusing ways. 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.440 And then also, I mean the thing that drew me 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.760 in was was the Michelson quote. Initially is you just 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.360 don't see people given quotes like that, you know, the 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.200 scary motherfuckers. You don't see quotes like that. And then 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.920 the backlash people were very honest. It was it was 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.040 like this excuse for everyone to kind of drop the 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:36.080 facade or drop the walls a little bit and to 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.160 just kind of say what they were feeling. And you 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.880 don't see, especially in sports, you don't see that that often. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.440 And it was amusing and refreshing in a lot of ways. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:45.640 To me. 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.160 Yeah, it was bizarre, is what it was. I couldn't 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.760 quite believe my eyes when that article by Alan Schipnook 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.880 with those quotes from Phil Nicholson came out in February. 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.839 Was that the first time that you had heard about live. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.240 Those of us in in the golf world had been 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.800 thinking about this since the emergence of the idea of 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.360 the Premiere Golf League in early twenty twenty, and we 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.080 were aware early on that the Saudis were involved in that, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.160 and so was February twenty twenty two with those Phil 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.080 Nicholson quotes the first time that you really stood up 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.760 and took notice of what was happening. 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.200 More or less. Yeah, I think I had heard the 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.960 term like Saudi Golf League or whatever they were calling 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.040 it in different. 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:30.559 Areas league SGL. 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:35.480 Yeah, yeah, SGL. I think that had crossed like my 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.880 Twitter feed or you know, i'd heard it on a 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.520 sports talk radio or something like that. But hadn't it 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.160 just kind of had rolled off because there's nothing to 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.200 grab onto, at least for me. I didn't. It didn't didn't, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.559 you know, affect me all that much. But the Mickelson 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.880 quote and that article from Shipnok was the first time 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.360 that I had really not only like passively consumed it, 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.360 but like actively was like, huh, what is what is 0:09:59.400 --> 0:09:59.719 this thing? 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.040 Yeah? Yeah, I think I think you're You're with a 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.280 lot of people there. But then by August you find 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.120 yourself at the Tour Championship, the final event of the 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:14.600 PGA Tour season. Tell me what it was like reporting 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.199 at that event. You got some really good quotes from 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.760 like Roy McElroy Max Homa and so clearly you were 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.920 well prepared to operate in that environment. But what did 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.520 you find surprising or notable or any anything else about 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.959 being at that event and observing. 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.000 I have to say the tour is a very pleasant 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.920 place to report. You've got the media ten, you've got 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.439 food all ready for you. You know, in some cases 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.120 there's like beers in the fridge, which is unusual for 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.439 for covering sports and covering anything really, and then you're 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.480 out on this nice golf course and people are generally 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.000 friendly and they're helpful. So it was it was nice. 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.640 I I you know, reporting golf is a lot of 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.959 reporting baseball, and that you're kind of just standing around 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.719 for hours on end, and then occasionally, you know, you're 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:07.839 standing around with people who are practicing and also kind 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.079 of standing around themselves, and then you just kind of 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.520 start talking. It helped I think that, you know, being 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:16.160 able to say you work in the New Yorker always 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.840 helps people recognize it even if they don't read it, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.840 and kind of have some level of respect for it 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.080 maybe or at least just think, hey, this is the 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.880 thing I've heard of. So people are generally willing to 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.360 talk and engage, and then it's just kind of the 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:34.079 matter of finding smart people or funny people. Max Homa 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.679 smart and funny. Rory McIlroy's a smart guy. I'm very 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.720 very well researched on this on the tour Versus Live 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.200 really knows this stuff very well, so the tour is 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.040 easier to report live. On the other hand, there are 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.800 a lot of barriers. I didn't get credentialed for my 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:57.120 first event in Bedminster at Trump National, so they ended 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:58.679 up giving me a ticket for free, which saved me 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.600 I think three dollars because they were selling for a 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.920 dollar on stuff up. So I just had a regular 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.080 general ticket and walked around the grounds and it was 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.839 very hard to talk to golfers. No one would really 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:10.720 want to talk. They're all being kind of cagy, which 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.640 I understood, but couldn't really get any interviews set up. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.200 And then I read the story in the Wall Street 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.120 Journal that a lot of these guys, or maybe all 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.040 of them, have clauses in their contract where they have 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.960 to get interviews approved by the Live mothership, so to speak. 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.640 So the tour was very easy. The tour was, you know, 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.720 the usual kind of American sports model. It's like, you know, 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.280 we're open, go go talk to who you want to 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.280 talk to, and Live was very much, you know, kind 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.079 of top down controlled. No. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.079 I found the same thing when I covered the Live 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.360 Portland event. And we can talk a little bit more 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.280 about Bedminster. I want to get there. But at the 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.640 Tour Championship, what was the impression that you picked up 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:53.760 about the nature of the conflict between PGA tour loyalists 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:55.920 and the guys who had jumped to live. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.400 There's a variety of views, but generally I think that 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:05.160 there's kind of two camps. The one camp that is 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.920 maybe it's a mix of people who are maybe interested 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:13.800 in live and those people and also the people who 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.199 are not interested in live but understand why people are going. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.719 You talk like Billy Horschel, there's a lot, not a 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.400 lot of ill will from him to a lot of 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.000 live golfers, and they understand, you know, you want to 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:26.960 go get money, that's that's fine. I would rather stay here, 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.760 but you know, that's an understandable choice. And then there's 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.920 the people who who feel and I think that there's 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.400 it's they will never say this, but it's a mix 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.280 of people who are maybe jealous or a mix of 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.120 people who maybe feel spurned or wanted the deal or 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.000 still chasing a deal and having a tough time, who 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.880 are more of the hardliners who are really kind of 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.240 pissed off about this. So I think there's there's there's 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.480 kind of those two camps. The one people who are like, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:53.120 you know, I don't like the way a lot of 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:54.800 people have gone about it. I don't like you suing 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.320 us even there's the other people who are like, these 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.880 people are horrible and uh and I hate them. 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.760 What's the sense that you picked up from Roy McElroy 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.280 about where he is in relation to those two groups. 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.320 Rory is interesting. He plays it kind of close to 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.679 the vest. Maybe he's a little bit of a I 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.800 would say he's more of the first group, where I 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.280 think he understands the motivations of a lot of these people, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.280 and I think that he really resents the fact that 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:31.240 this is affecting his tour, which he really likes. I found, 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.520 and it's it's hard to tell, but I found that 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.680 he was one of the people who and probably he 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.080 would I think you would admit this, probably because he 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.000 has a lot of money to begin with, and he 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:42.600 has a lot of sponsorships, and he's spending a lot 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.640 of money on the tour. He is less motivated by 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.920 money than I think a lot of people. And I 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.000 think he really does genuinely love the tour and this 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:55.760 is what he dreamed of, and he wants to protect 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.000 the thing that he dreamed of. And there are a 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.160 few people like that. A lot of people are just 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:04.760 motivated simp by the money or by resentment. But so 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.280 I think he resents in a way that they're messing 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.720 up his tour. But I don't think that he really 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.000 hates a lot of the people that went. But one 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:14.520 of the things that he told me this didn't make 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.480 it in the THEECE is we're talking about how this 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.760 thing might end, and he was like, there has to 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.600 be some sort of punishment to people who come back, otherwise, 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.120 you know, if live folds or some people want to 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.600 defect back. He feels like everyone could have just gone. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.280 He could have just gone and got it in, you know, 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.800 one hundred something million dollars and then come back with 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.320 no punishment. He still feels like, you know, there's got 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.240 to be some sort of you know, penance paid by 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:41.840 these golf guys. So I think there's a little bit 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.520 of a mix like it's it's it's it's personal for him, 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.480 even if I think he understands on an intellectual level 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.240 that you know, these guys are allowed to go get 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:51.000 money and that's fine. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.240 Yeah, Rory is such a fascinating figure in all this 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.160 because he obviously is very smart and I think he's 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:02.320 thinking of all of this pretty strategically. But but he 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.000 has a lot of power, right He He's almost sort 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.240 of like a shadow commissioner in a way because if he, 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:12.359 if he wants something, then Jay Monahan, the PGA Tourist commissioner, 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.000 is not really in that strong of a position to 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.480 say no to him. And so, you know, getting getting 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.360 Roy's take on things is always really interesting and important. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:28.880 So you went to Trump Bedminster, so you were not 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.280 credentialed at this event. The New Yorker sent in a 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.840 credential application and was rejected by by liv Golf. Do 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.160 I have that? Do I have that right? 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:37.040 Yes? 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:38.440 And I have. 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.200 I've never been rejected in a credential application for a 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:46.200 sporting event. Ever, I don't think that's crazy. The one tournament, 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.520 the FedEx Cup tournament I covered in New Jersey was 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.520 at Plainfield Country Club and I was an intern at 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.840 the Trentonian, which is like a small, very small tabloids. 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.960 That's my freshman year of college, very small tablet in 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.080 New Jersey. And the PJ was like, yeah, sure come, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.720 it's been all week there, so it was unusual. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.840 Yeah, okay, that's that is really interesting to me. I 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.359 think we we sent in a credential application for the 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.800 Frida Egg and got approved maybe thirty minutes later. I'm 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.400 not sure there's necessarily a rhyme or reason to who 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.680 they're letting in and who they're trying to keep out. 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.920 So you were just there. They ended up giving you 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.400 a free ticket. You were just there essentially as a fan. 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.159 I'm not sure that fans that reporters at live events 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.159 have meaningfully more access to players than fans do in 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.439 the end. But what was your experience like at Bedminster? 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.080 It was It was bizarre. It was a weird experience. 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:43.879 I would describe it as kind of like a MAGA 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.720 rally with some golf mixed in. That was the crowd. 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.840 I talked to one woman who said I wouldn't be 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.520 able to tell my friends and clients that I was here. 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:56.879 She lived in Florida, so she had a mix of 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.000 Republican and Democrat friends. She said, I won't be able 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:00.680 to tell friends and clients at all here or else. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.800 A lot of my clients would not talk to me 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:07.679 ever again because it was it was basically a Trump rally. 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.520 There was also a mix of like kind of curious 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.080 bro types. The way I described this to friends is 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.360 the guys that kind of you know, they wear there 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.000 the like the flat brim HAPs like kind of on 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.040 a tilt, like on their forehead and kind of like 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:23.080 rest on top of their forehead. I kind of connected 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.760 to to the lax bros that I grew up with. 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.919 I grew up not far away, so I kind of 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.479 understood the archetype, and that was not I was myself 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.159 was not too far off from the archetype at some 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.600 points in my life. But it was like, you know, 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.480 it was I think it was like the curious bro 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.919 types and then like the hardcore maga people. There were 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:43.640 a lot of jokes about Hillary, a lot of jokes 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.760 about Biden, a lot of let's go Brandon chance, and 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:51.280 then Trump himself gave a speech. He as the players 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:53.199 were coming through the sixteen tee box, which is this 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.280 par three right by the clubhouse. He just got a 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.520 microphone and started giving a little speech and then had 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.320 a guy saying God bless America as the golfers were 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.160 like continuing to play. So it was it was almost 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.200 like people forgot that there was golf going on, and 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.960 people just kind of flocked to this area where Trump 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.560 was with Tucker Carlson and with Marjorie Taylor Green and 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.080 that whole cast of characters. People just flock to just 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:17.320 go see them. 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:22.080 Yeah, yeah, I mean so beyond the absurdity of this scene. 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.240 And it is completely absurd to think that a golf 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.240 event could take on the you know, character of a 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.600 political rally, But that is what happened here. This indicates 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:37.320 something I think about the way that the Live versus 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:42.720 PGA Tour conflict has become absorbed into the larger culture wars, right, 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.720 And I've been trying to figure this out because it 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.239 doesn't map on perfectly. You know, the PGA Tour is 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.280 not woke, as much as people want to portray it 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.760 as that in opposition to Live Golf's sort of resistance, 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.000 but there is something like that there there is something 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.240 political about this conflict, and I was wondering if you 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.080 ever got to a point where you could explain that 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.359 to yourself. You know, what, how does this whole thing 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.720 intersect with the culture wars? 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.160 I think the best way I could break it down 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:25.120 is that the live seems to attract the a lot 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.440 of people that grew up with with not as much 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.560 money or resources, So people who were maybe grew up 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.439 a little bit more blue collar, or people who just 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.119 this is this is I think where the culture politics 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:39.960 comes into it. There's some people who grew up with, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.520 you know, plenty of money but identify kind of with 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.280 like the white working class in some ways. And the 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.560 people who more strongly associated I think with those groups 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:54.320 also tended to be more Trump Republicans rather the mainline Republicans. 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.360