WEBVTT - CoreCivic: Unlocking the Truth 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.119 For more than thirty years. We've put service at the 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:14.000 center of everything we do, working side by side with government. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:22.040 We serve people, we serve ideals, We serve the public good. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.120 Corrections Corporation of America has been under screeting before, Bakers 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.360 sparred over the treatment of inmates and privately run cour 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.320 Civic jail watching while an enmy was beaten, failed to 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:38.280 turn over, understaffed, putting employees at risk people even keeping 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:59.280 people safe. We are cour Civic. Welcome to Calling Bullshit 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.320 podcast about purpose washing, the gap between what companies say 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.800 they stand for and what they actually do, and what 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.479 they would need to change to practice what they preach. 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.360 I'm your host, time onto you, and I've spent over 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.959 a decade helping companies define what they stand for, their 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.920 purpose and then help them to use that purpose to 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:25.520 drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at a lot of 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.880 organizations today, they're still a pretty wide gap between word. Indeed, 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:35.000 that gap has a name. We call it bullshit. But, 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.760 and this is important, we believe that bullshit is a 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.520 treatable disease. So when the BS detector lights up, we're 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.440 going to explore things that a company should do to 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:57.560 fix it. In this episode, we're going to take a 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.800 look at Course Civic, a private risen company whose purposes 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.840 quote to provide high quality, compassionate treatment to all those 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:11.320 in our care. We operate safe facilities that provide education 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:16.160 and effective reentry programming to help individuals make positive changes 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.240 so they can return to the community successfully. That sounds 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.000 like a worthy purpose, but Course Civic operates in an 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.480 industry that raises some profound questions about the nature of 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:32.840 for profit incarceration. Questions like what happens when your purpose 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.440 and your business model are in direct opposition to one another, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:41.000 what role does the government play in helping or hindering 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:45.160 Course Civic from achieving its purpose? And ultimately, do we 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:50.120 see any gaps between word and d. With the help 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.960 of an A c O. You attorney, a professor of 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:57.399 immigration rights, and the director of the Nolan Center for Justice, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.760 We're about to find the answers to understand the story 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.359 of Course Civic. We first need to understand the story 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.720 of private prisons in America, and to do that, we 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.200 really need to understand our country's entire history of punishment 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:20.840 and incarceration. Historically, punishment for those convicted of a crime 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.440 tended to be direct, immediate and public convicts were shackled 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.160 and put on display in the town square or sometimes 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:34.240 whipped or in extreme cases, publicly put to debt. Some 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.240 would argue this was barbaric, but one redeeming quality was 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.360 it was completely transparent. Everybody knew what the state was 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:47.360 doing to its citizens. But in sev seven, the Pennsylvania 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:52.760 Prison Society implemented the separate confinement theory of punishment. Instead 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.200 of inflicting immediate pain or shame on a criminal, the 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:00.840 separate confinement theory emphasized isolated confinement of the prisoners to 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.480 give them ample time to ponder their mistakes and make 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:08.600 their peace with God, also known as penance, hence the 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:16.200 term penitentiary. Both a philosophical and architectural punishment strategy, separate 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.479 confinement quickly became the dominant practice in states throughout America. 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:25.000 This practice moved the punishment of citizens by the government 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.839 out of public view. It now took place behind paul 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:36.400 walls and locked gates. In eighteen sixty, with the Civil 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:42.240 War now over, the thirte Amendment finally abolished slavery. However, 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:47.240 within that amendment, the six word clause except as punishment 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:52.200 for crime, legally permitted prisons to lease out prisoners as 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:58.120 involuntary servants to private industry. This convict leasing clause resulted 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.200 in a dramatic increase of prisoner primarily black men, and 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:07.640 normalize the practice of prison labor. The concept of a 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.080 federal prison was established in eighteen ninety one with the 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.320 Three Prisons Act, and by nineteen thirty Congress stepped in 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.920 once more to create the Bureau of Prisons to manage 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.960 the growing number of federal penitentiaries. In the subsequent decades, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.360 the Bureau of Prisons nearly doubled the number of inmates 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.880 and prisons. It also modernized its practices during this time, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:37.920 making quote rehabilitation and treatment the leading doctrines in corrections. Then, 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.000 in the nineteen sixties, as a reaction to the Vietnam 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.159 War protests, uprisings in l a and in Harlem, and 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.080 the Watts Right, President Johnson called for a quote war 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:56.040 on crime. The American people have had enough of rising 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:02.039 crime and lawlessness in this country. President Nixon campaigned as 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.480 the law and order President. I pledged to you, the 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.960 wave of crime is not going to be the wave 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.400 of the future. In America and then President Reagan declared 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:16.760 his war on drugs our society. By the time President 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.920 Clinton left office, prison populations had risen more than under 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:27.239 the previous two administrations combined. Because each administration had doubled 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.440 down on who could be the toughest on crime, they 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:38.640 were now more prisoners than prisons to hold them. America 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:44.720 had a prison problem, and so three entrepreneurs from Tennessee 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.320 did what entrepreneurs do. They came up with an idea 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.599 to solve this problem, and the private prison was born. 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:02.200 The Corrections Corporation of America was founded in nineteen eighty 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:07.480 three by then chairman of the Tennessee Republican Party Thomas Beasley, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:12.760 American Correctional Association President T. Don Huddo, and real Estate 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:18.040 CFO Robert Krantz. At the time, forty one states had 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.960 been declared by the federal courts to be operating their 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:26.680 prison systems in an unconstitutional fashion. Corrections Corporation of America 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.720 saw an opportunity to capitalize on what they said was 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:36.200 a complacent government operation that was overwhelmed with demand. The 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.960 system is and has been in a downwards viral for 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:44.040 many many years, overcrowding and virtually every facility at the federal, state, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.400 and local level. Corrections Corporation of America was founded in 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:51.840 early nineteen eighty three with one goal in mind, provide 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.480 an innovative alternative to the administrative and budgetary constraints of 0:07:55.520 --> 0:08:00.840 the existing corrections and detention systems. Their two years later, 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.880 with over one point eight billion dollars in annual revenue, 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:09.400 and now renamed Course Civic, the company is the largest 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.880 private prison corporation in the United States, operating approximately eighty 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:24.160 correctional and detention facilities. Until recently, I had never even 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.240 heard of Course Civic. They first caught my attention on 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:33.240 Newsweek's list of the most Responsible Companies of one that 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:39.880 made me curious, So I did a little googling issues 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.840 ranging from inadequate safety equipment to extreme procedural hundred grievances 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.640 alleging mistreatment and excessive force, from medical issues to alleged 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:55.160 officers claimed the conditions inside the detention identified serious concerns 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.040 regarding detainee care, and I was amazed at what my 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:04.240 research revealed. Increasing violence and deadly violence. That's Sharon Brett, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.040 legal director at the American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas. 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:10.240 When these things started to come to our attention and 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.760 we are tracking them. We said, it sounds like there's 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.200 something bigger going on here. Sharon's story of the a 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.200 c l U and other Kansas public defenders trying to 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:23.720 shut down Course Civics Leavenworth facility was only one of 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:30.320 a long list of alarming reports. Course Civic says its 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.160 purpose is to provide high quality, compassionate treatment to all 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.040 of those in their care, to operate safe facilities, and 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.240 to help individuals make positive changes so they can return 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.680 to the community successfully. So is that actually true or 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.319 is it just a bunch of bullshit? Get out your 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.360 BS detectors, folks and set them on high, because this 0:09:53.400 --> 0:10:00.400 one gets deep. More on that right after this before 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.400 you head to the break. We'd love to hear what 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.360 you think about the show. Maybe you were inspired to 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.880 take action, Maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating. Either way, 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.480 we want to hear about it. Leave us a message 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.880 at two one two five oh five three zero five, 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.280 or send a voice memo to CBS podcast at co 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.760 collective dot com. You might even be featured on an 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:36.560 upcoming episode Welcome Back to better understand the private prison 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.920 business model and to figure out if it's even possible 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.360 for cour Civic to truly live their purpose. I first 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.720 spoke with an attorney with deep expertise in the criminal 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.959 justice system, Sharon Brett, legal director at the a c 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:57.040 l U Kansas. Okay, well, let's get into it. Sharon, 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.400 thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.120 the Bullshit Podcast. Thanks for having me. I want to 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:09.480 start out by just delving into your experience with the 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:15.079 Leavenworth Prison, which is a Coursivic facility, and I wonder 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.120 if you could just talk about why you and other 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:23.000 public defenders decided to take action there. We heard from 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.960 a number of people through our legal intake system at 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.160 the a c l U of Kansas that there were 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:33.360 problems at Coursivic Love and Worth that were increasing over 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.319 the last eight to ten months or so. The facility 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:41.720 was getting more violent, there was more drugs and contraband 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.760 inside the facility. There are fewer staff members around, and 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.960 so it seemed like the facility was really struggling just 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.960 to cover the basic shifts. And when we talked with 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.600 our partners at the Federal Public Defenders Office in Kansas, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.640 they have been hearing the same thing from their clients, 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:01.959 and they had atually had seen the same stuff from 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.560 their clients when they had gone to visit their clients 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.600 or speak with them over the phone, and that became 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.079 alarming to us. Right, So what did you discover as 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.520 a result of stepping in. We talked to some former 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.680 correctional officers at Percivic and they had talked about how 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.720 they had quit because they felt unsafe at their job. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.760 We talked to what individual who had been stabbed multiple 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:30.400 times by people incarcerated at the facility. Yeah, he'd been 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.880 sent to local hospitals for treatment three different times, and 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.079 he finally said enough is enough. And there's a point 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.080 over the summer where the locks didn't work on a 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.880 lot of the cells inside the facility. What I mean, 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.640 whether they deserve to be in there or not is 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.080 a completely different issue. But once they're in there, it 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.480 seems like you want doors that have locks that work. 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:57.480 And you you mentioned something when you were relaying the 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.880 story that stuck out to me. Are there, in general 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:08.599 fewer guards in private prisons than in regular government facilities? 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:13.920 There certainly shouldn't be. There's no separate set of standards 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.640 that apply to correctional facilities that are run for profit. 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.560 I see, and but were there fewer at Leavenworth than 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.120 than they're needed to be? That's what we understand. And 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:30.400 this location, I understand is contracted with the US Marshalls Service. 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.400 Is that correct? Yes, So the facility run by Coursivic 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.640 and Love and Worth is under a contract with the U. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.680 S Marshall Service, which means that it holds people who 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.800 are facing federal charges but who have not yet been 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.719 convicted or have pled guilty to those charges. So it's 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.320 all people who are pre trial on federal charges inside 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.600 that facility. I see. Okay, And could you just for 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.920 our listeners talk a little bit about how private prison 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.920 contracts generally work. They sort of work how any other 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.480 business contract would work. So you have an entity that 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.320 needs a service. In this case, the service is the 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.400 caging of human beings who are facing federal charges, and 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.280 they put in a bid for that contract, and there's 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.760 regulations on the federal government side that governed the type 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.360 of care that needs to be provided. And obviously, because 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:34.160 this private company is assuming the role of the jailer 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.280 for the federal government, the private company has to comply 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.720 with things like the United States Constitution just as the U. S. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.080 Martial Service would. Can you tell us a little more 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.320 about the executive order from President Biden which prevents Courcivic 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.000 from renewing the leaven Worth contract and what that might 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:57.320 mean for cour Civic and other private prisons. So one 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.760 of the first things that President Biden did when he 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:03.720 took office was issued this executive order which called on 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.280 the U. S. Martial Service and the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.920 which holds the post trial that convicted population on federal charges. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.000 Called on those two entities, which fall under the Department 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.760 of Justice, to end contracts with private detention companies like 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.240 cours Civic and the Geo Group and others, So once 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.920 they reach their term of expiration, the contract would be done, 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:32.200 that relationship would end, And Biden's executive order prevented the 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.200 Department of Justice from entering into any new contracts to 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.760 hold federal detainees or federal prisoners at a facility run 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.480 by a private corporation. Why did they do that. I 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:50.280 think it came from this recognition that private companies are 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.680 not going to place the constitutional rights of the people 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.480 that they detain over their profit votives. Yeah, that's a 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.200 big question. Mark for me when I read Course civics 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.880 stated mission. They say their mission is to operate safe 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:10.400 facilities that provide education and effective reentry programming to help 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:14.160 individuals make positive changes so they can return to the 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:19.160 community successfully, which is a great mission. It's just that 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.200 many of those tenants are in direct opposition to the 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.480 business model. In other words, there's so many incentives to 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:32.600 cut corners on safety, on mental and physical health, on nutrition, 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:39.760 on rehabilitation. I'm interested in how they justify that if 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.880 you have heard them speak to that, and I also 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:48.120 wonder how the government justifies that. Well. One thing I 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:54.880 think is unique about prison corporations is that the public 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.880 truly lacks access to what's actually happening inside the walls, 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.880 and the shareholders of that company lack access to what's 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:07.200 happening inside those facilities. So they can have such a bold, 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:11.120 beautiful mission statement like the one Course Civic has and 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.919 completely and utterly failed to live up to it, and 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.040 no one would have any idea. Frankly, there's a large 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.280 portion of America and a large portion of our politicians 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.200 who don't really care what's happening to people who are incarcerated. 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.440 That begs the question, do we know if Course Civic 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.520 is measuring any of these things? In other words, does 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:37.199 data exist that we don't have access to? Not that 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.800 I've seen, So I can't find data on their website 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.800 about a lot of things that I would typically look 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.840 for in measuring whether they're running a constitutional prison. And 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.720 maybe it's worth saying, for a moment, backing up a 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:52.440 little bit and talking about the work that I did 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.480 before I came to the sail you, because I think 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.280 it's a little bit relevant here, please do yes. So 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.119 for a while, I started my career as an attorney 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.280 with the Department of Justice in the Civil Rights Division, 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.600 so not the part of the Department of Justice that 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.679 houses federal prisoners, but the part of the Department of 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.959 Justice that investigates state and local facilities for constitutional violations 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.320 within their prisons in jails. So I have years of 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:23.080 experience going into facilities that are under consent decrees with 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.800 the federal government because they run unconstitutional prisons and jails, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.400 and there's you look at those consent decrees and there's 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.359 a whole list of things that the facility needs to 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.760 be measuring to show that they're in compliance with the 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.720 Constitution and you don't see that type of data or 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.840 that reporting on coursivis website, and it's certainly not stuff 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.119 that's talked about in their shareholder calls either, because what 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.800 they're trying to do in those calls is get people 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:53.440 to invest in their company. So if they were producing 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:58.160 data such as the numbers of incidents of force inside 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.480 the facility, the number of sexual assaults occurring inside a facility, 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.919 the number of complaints received by people incarcerated there, and 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.800 whether any of those had merit, they wouldn't be raking 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.280 in the profits. I think if they were actually reporting 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:17.440 on the numbers of what's up actually happening inside. Does 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:22.520 the Freedom of Information Act apply to cour Civic coursivis 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.040 a private entity, so there are some case law that 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.840 says that they don't have to respond to those foyer requests, 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.600 and I think this has been something that's been fought 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:36.760 in courts before, but it's a real concern. So there's 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.840 just this lack of access to what's actually happening inside 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.200 of there. And I will say even state agencies or 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.639 or state facilities that are subject to state based open 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:53.119 records laws, or the federal government which is subject to FOIA, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.040 it still can be very, very difficult to get data. 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:03.760 Do for profit private prisons legally infringe on a person's 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.320 civil liberties? In other words, are they legal? I think 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:11.680 that they are legal entities. Right. The federal government has 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.000 the authority to contract out for services to private corporations. 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.399 They do that all the time for all sorts of 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.880 different things. Right. They do it in the military, they 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:25.640 do it in industry. I think it's how private prisons 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:31.040 run their business that's unconstitutional. Right, How how would you 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:36.160 say the government is implicated in the supply and demand 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.479 of this business model? In other words, have we created 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:44.840 a culture of mass incarceration without a doubt? And that's 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:48.240 not just on the private prison industries backs, right, that's 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:53.040 on politicians dating back decades. But mass incarceration is here. 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.400 It has been here for a long time. And I 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.440 want to take a moment to mention because I haven't 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.240 mentioned it yet here, but I think it's an important point. 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.600 The vast majority of people who are incarcerated across our 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:13.480 country are people of color, and this system disproportionately impacts 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:18.960 minorities and disproportionately impacts people without economic means, and so 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.760 there's an element of what these private corporations are doing here, 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:30.160 which is reinforcing white supremacy and reinforcing a deeply racist 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:34.160 criminal legal system in our country and allowing that to perpetuate. 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.480 Some of the statistics are eye popping. One out of 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.919 every three black boys born today can expect to go 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.720 to prison in his lifetime, one in every six Latino 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:52.480 boys compared to one of every seventeen white children. And 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:57.760 the fastest growing prison population is female. But I will 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.440 say that the prison population has begun to go down 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.280 overall in the country, and I think that's as we 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:09.679 recognize that prisons are not the answer to many of 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.680 the problems that plague society, and that we really need 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.840 to be reinvesting in our communities, in jobs, in education, 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:20.200 in housing. That's the way that you prevent crime, not 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:24.560 by incarcerating people. We will never incarceraate ourselves out of 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:27.159 a crime in the United States. It's not possible to 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.800 do that, and in fact, lots of studies have shown 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.119 that long periods of incarceration actually don't do a whole 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.879 heck of a lot for reducing the crime rate. What 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.400 we need to be doing is investing in communities instead. 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.119 I read also as a part of this, there are 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:45.040 a number of states that spend more on incarceration than 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.919 they do on education. And that's telling right, that's telling 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.280 you where our priorities are. So the famous saying is 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.960 that budgets are a moral document. And when you look 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:58.000 at a budget and you see how much money goes 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.880 towards policing and how much money goes to its corrections, 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:05.080 and you compare that to how much goes towards alleviating 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:10.359 food and security, towards education, towards transportation, it really shows 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.119 you where our values are. Now, I want to delve 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:17.320 into the realm of essentially your opinion around the morality 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:22.400 of these things, because I read a book called Inside 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.000 Private Prisons and American Dilemma in the Age of Mass Incarceration, 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.840 which was an amazing book, and in it there was 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:34.679 a quote from a prisoner and it reads, I realized 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.600 that someone has found a way to make money off 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:43.720 of my mistakes, my pain, my misfortune, and that right 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:47.680 there was the biggest blow to the head. It was, Oh, 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:51.160 my god, our country is so obsessed with incarcerating us 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:53.960 and thinks we are such bad people that they're now 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:58.320 making money off of us being bad, What sort of 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:02.520 hope for us is there? And that really, I don't know. 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:07.000 That just resonated with me. It's like it's it almost 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:10.320 adds to the punishment in a way, to know that 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:15.000 you are a commodity when you think about it. The 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:20.119 existence of private prison companies is an acceptance of the 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:23.919 idea that we can and should be profiting off the 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:28.120 caging of human beings, that we need to be putting 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.760 more people into the criminal justice system so that we 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.440 can fill the beds, and these private facilities in turn 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:38.000 a profit right. The facility makes money if all of 0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:42.080 its beds are filled, and they make less money if 0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.640 we as a country begin to decarceorate. So you see 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:49.760 the private prison lobby pushing back against what I think 0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:52.960 has been a trend across the country of people saying 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:57.159 the war on drugs was a mistake. The tough on 0:24:57.280 --> 0:25:00.920 crime mentality of these politicians is wrong, long and immoral, 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.040 and we need to be decarcerating. We need to be 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.440 thinking about ways to keep people out of the criminal 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:11.800 justice system. That doesn't help private prison companies. Private prison 0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:16.359 companies want the machinery of incarceration to continue to churn 0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:18.800 because that's what makes them money, and so there's something 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:23.560 inherently immoral about that at its base. One other topic 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:28.840 that I wanted to touch on was I've read arguments 0:25:29.400 --> 0:25:33.639 for private prisons that that are along the lines of 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:38.760 the government tends to be bad at things like innovation 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:43.680 and private organizations. Private businesses are where innovation really happens. 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:49.320 And so Coursivic says its mission is better outcomes and 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.479 a safer society. That's a great mission. It's also an 0:25:53.480 --> 0:26:01.399 invitation for innovation. But looking through all of the available data, 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:05.360 I didn't see very much innovation going on in Coursivic 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:10.000 facilities or any private prisons. Are you aware of any 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:13.840 innovation taking place? Not by course Civic, but I I 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:17.480 would push back on the idea that we should care 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:25.080 the most about. There's no innovative way to cage a 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:29.040 human being, right There's so there's nothing innovative about the 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:33.560 private prison model. I could understand innovation in other industries, 0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:38.400 but we're talking about mass caging of human beings. When 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:41.280 you frame it in that light, and you're like, oh, well, 0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:44.560 private prisons could innovate here, like you could hear how 0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:51.520 ridiculous that sounds, right? I grant you that that sounds 0:26:52.080 --> 0:26:56.680 sound ridiculous. However, just one idea. For instance, what if 0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:04.119 governments mandated perform and space contracts with goals like recidivism reduction, 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:09.720 for instance, to truly incentivize the system, to try to 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:13.080 prevent people from winding up back in the system. Sure, 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.920 maybe there's a contract that could improve outcomes, but I 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:21.080 would posit that the private corporation would say that, well, 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:23.720 that's not the business I'm in, Like, that's that's not 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:28.439 going to help me maximize my profit. And they are 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.840 there to turn a profit. Whatever their mission statement is. 0:27:32.760 --> 0:27:36.680 Businesses have to fulfill their mission statement in a way 0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:40.240 that earns their shareholders money, and so I just don't 0:27:40.280 --> 0:27:42.720 see them being willing to do something like that in 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:48.480 a meaningful way that actually changes outcomes for people. All right, Sharon, 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.760 is there anything else on this topic that you think 0:27:51.960 --> 0:27:56.359 listeners ought to know. The one thing that I think 0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:59.879 is worth mentioning here is that Biden's executive order only 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:03.840 applies to the Department of Justice contracts. So a trend 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:06.239 that we are seeing across the country right now is 0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:10.600 that as these contracts expire and are not renewed, pursuant 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:14.960 to the executive order. Private corporations like Coursivic and Geo 0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:19.639 Group are looking to other federal agencies for contracts to 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:24.000 try to fill those beds, such as ICE. So they 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:29.000 are looking to turn these empty facilities into immigration detention facilities, 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:32.919 which raises a whole host of additional concerns, one of 0:28:33.000 --> 0:28:36.600 them being that we were able to know what was 0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:41.080 happening inside of Courcivic in part because the people who 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:44.080 are incarcerated at that facility in leaven Worth were all 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:47.360 pre trial, meaning they had to be able to contact 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:50.600 their lawyers whenever they wanted, and their lawyers had to 0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:53.160 be able to contact them to prepare for their defense. 0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:56.720 So the federal public defenders were able to sound the 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.160 alarm on what was happening here because they had this 0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:02.800 right of acts us that's inherent for pre child attention facilities. 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:07.880 If this turns into an ICE facility, that access goes away, 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.600 and that means we will have even less of an 0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:13.720 idea of what's happening inside. And these are people who, 0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:18.280 by many many arguments, should not be in a detention 0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:21.680 setting at all, agreed, and that's that's a big part 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:25.040 of course civics business as I understand, of all the 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:28.160 private prison companies, Coursivic is the one that is biggest 0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:31.360 into immigration detention. And we could just see it get 0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:36.240 worse because of the ending of the contracts with BOP 0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:39.760 and the US Martial Service and then turning those facilities 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.160 into ice facilities just so they can keep the beds 0:29:42.160 --> 0:29:45.520 field and still have money made on that institution. And 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.120 why why do we put them in prison? What is 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:51.960 the rationale? That is a question for somebody who is 0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:55.480 in favor of detaining people who are awaiting de quortation. 0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:57.800 It's it's not the area of law that I have 0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:02.120 expertise in, and I've feel deeply that that these individuals 0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:04.480 can safely be in the community and should not be 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:09.200 detained in warehouses like they are right now. Sharon. We 0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:12.200 have something on calling BS that we call the B 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:17.040 S scale. So on a scale of zero to one 0:30:16.000 --> 0:30:20.880 hundred being the worst total BS and zero being the 0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:25.800 best zero BS, what score would you give Course Civic. 0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:29.120 I mean, so one fifty is not an option here? 0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:33.120 Is that? Is that what you're saying? It max is 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:34.800 out at a hundred, But if you want to go 0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:37.080 to a hundred fleas I think you know what I'm 0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:40.440 gonna say here and it's and it's a hundred beautiful. 0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:43.320 All right, Well, thanks for thank you for coming on 0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:45.600 the show. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, it's 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:51.080 been great to be here. The conversation with Sharon confirmed 0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:54.480 a couple of concerns that I initially had about privatization 0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:59.040 of the prison system. Course Civic lacks transparency, and the 0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:04.960 business model is pretty troubling. Ideally, in a purpose led company, 0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:09.720 the purpose and the business model are aligned. In other words, 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:12.960 the more the company succeeds at delivering on its purpose, 0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:17.560 the better it does financially. In the case of Courcivic, 0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:21.720 and to be fair other private prison companies, that doesn't 0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:28.840 seem to be the case, and that corrodes trust. So folks, 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:34.360 it's time to make the call. Is Courcivic a bullshitter? 0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:38.400 Based on what I've heard so far? I got to 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:43.240 agree with Sharon and call BS. But remember, on this 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:47.120 show we believe b S is a treatable condition. So 0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:50.360 after the break, we'll hear from two more experts in 0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:54.600 incarceration and prison reform about some ideas that might just 0:31:54.800 --> 0:32:16.240 help Courcivic actually deliver its purpose stick with us. Before 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:20.280 the break, we concluded that there is a pretty sizable 0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:23.800 gap between word and deed at Core Civic. So we've 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:27.840 called b s now. The question is what should CEO 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:31.280 David Heineger and his leadership team due to fix it. 0:32:32.760 --> 0:32:36.480 The cure is positive action. So I've asked two experts 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:39.200 in the law and in prison reform to join us 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:42.680 to propose some concrete things that cour Civic should change 0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:47.400 to better practice what it preaches, says our Hernandez, and 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:54.880 David Sefabian says a welcome to the show. Could you 0:32:54.960 --> 0:33:00.080 tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Nand this 0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:04.360 I'm professor at Ohio States at University, where I hold 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:06.920 the Gregory Williams Charing Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. And 0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:10.120 I'm the author of Migrating to Prison, America's obsession with 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:13.200 locking up immigrants and the commigration law. Great to have 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:17.840 you here. Thank you. And David Sefabian, welcome to Calling Bullshit. 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:20.800 Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Well, 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:22.800 I'm David s. Fabian. I am the director of the 0:33:22.800 --> 0:33:26.720 Nolan Center for Justice, the American Conservative Union Foundation. I 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:29.320 am a former White House official or former chief of 0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:31.760 staff for a member of Congress and someone who has 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:34.360 spent a year in federal prison, and I've seen all 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.800 sides of the criminal justice debate, and my passion is 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:40.880 fixing the system. So let's get right into some ideas 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.560 for cour Civic. Say sorry, I'm going to ask you 0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:47.160 to go first. In two minutes or less, what's the 0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.520 number one thing that cour Civic should do to better 0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.680 live up to their mission. I think Corsivic actually has 0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:59.080 a lot of its disposal by providing wrap around services 0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:03.640 that support people as they're going through what are, in 0:34:03.680 --> 0:34:08.160 some circumstances, very high stakes legal proceedings. And this happens 0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:12.520 um in the context of the migrants who are being 0:34:12.560 --> 0:34:16.279 held by Course Civic on behalf of government agencies like 0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:20.359 the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency. Those are individuals who 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:24.640 are in the midst of legal proceedings before the nation's 0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:27.640 immigration courts, and so Course off it could, for example, 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:33.600 focus its resources on providing case management services, providing access 0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:37.840 to social workers who would be able to help people 0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:41.680 navigate the stress and the anxiety that goes along with 0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:47.120 legal proceedings in which very meaningful, life changing, life altering 0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:52.000 decisions are to be made, and also ensure that its locations. 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:57.080 Its facilities are located in places where others can access 0:34:57.120 --> 0:35:00.239 them and by by others. And I'm talking about low years. 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:03.400 So so don't locate your facilities in the middle of 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:07.520 uh the Arizona Desert, for example, but instead and in 0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:12.840 or near large metropolitan areas where legal services organizations are present, 0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:17.799 where courts are located. And I also think that journalists 0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:21.759 play an important role here in maintaining oversight of these facilities, 0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:25.560 and so locating facilities in places where you do have 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:29.560 larger media markets would actually provide a separate and independent 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:33.239 source of eyes and ears to what's happening inside these facilities. 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:38.040 That would think ultimately improve the likelihood of success for 0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.359 the government agencies with which course of your contracts thank 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:45.360 you say sorry? Okay, David, You're next in two minutes 0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:48.399 or less. What is the number one thing cours Civic 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:51.319 should be doing better to deliver on what they say 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:54.239 that they stand for. Well, let me just before we 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:56.200 get to that, I think I want to challenge those 0:35:56.239 --> 0:35:58.600 are on something, or maybe it's we're going to challenge 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:02.480 the topic. There are too fundamentally different missions for companies 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:05.440 like Course Civic and the solutions that says are and 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:09.480 others have suggested differ based on the mission set. So, 0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:15.200 for example, when you're talking about detention based on criminal charge, right, 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:18.360 you know private prisons in the kind of way people 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:21.520 most think about them. You know my understanding and I 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:24.920 have two or course IT facilities. My understanding is that 0:36:25.000 --> 0:36:27.359 they do provide wrap around services for people who are 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:30.319 serving a sentence based on criminal conduct. And they do 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.200 that for a number of reasons. One is they're often 0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:38.160 contractually obligated to do so, and two because providing those 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:42.919 types of services healthcare, mental health, and hygiene education, those 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:48.120 wrap around services reduce recidivism, which goes directly to core 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:52.879 Civics mission statement. Right. That is a different value proposition 0:36:53.200 --> 0:36:57.000 than immigration detention, where the end state is going to 0:36:57.080 --> 0:37:00.160 be one of two things. Either the folks who were 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:04.520 being detained our return to their home countries or they're 0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:06.839 going to be admitted to the United States under under 0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:12.000 immigration procedures. In either case, the value proposition of providing 0:37:12.160 --> 0:37:15.000 a full suite of wrap around services is different. All right, 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:17.160 what's the end goal? The end goal and the immigration 0:37:17.200 --> 0:37:19.080 detention is to figure out what we do with people 0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.680 A recidivism is not the driver in that circumstances, whereas 0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:25.279 recidivism is the driver for people who are serving a 0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:27.720 criminal sentence. So I think that that's an important point. 0:37:29.000 --> 0:37:31.960 I came back from a trip in where we saw 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:35.440 European prisons, and what was fascinating about the way that 0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:39.720 the Europeans handle their incarceration system is the same people 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:44.440 that are designated to guard inmates are also the people 0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:47.800 that are providing social services, so their social workers first, 0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:50.520 in their guard second. That is a totally different model 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:52.840 than what we have primarily in the United States. And 0:37:52.920 --> 0:37:55.279 that is the type of thing where you know, people 0:37:55.320 --> 0:37:59.360 who were detained can build bonds, can find mentors, and 0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:02.440 the people that are paid to guard them and to 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:06.719 make sure that the facilities are safe are also contributing 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:10.440 to their potential rehabilitation. So that's where I see areas 0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:14.200 were Corsific and other companies and quite frankly, other entities 0:38:14.239 --> 0:38:16.640 government and non government can improve. I think that's an 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:20.360 interesting idea as well. So it's it's my turn, and 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:22.920 then we'll just see where the conversation takes us. You know, 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.440 as I've been reading about this and talking to folks, 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:27.440 it's become clear to me that you know, there are 0:38:27.440 --> 0:38:30.120 lots of issues, but I think the main issue, the 0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:33.400 issue that causes people to mistrust in many cases, the 0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:36.600 whole idea of a private prison is the business model. 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:41.920 It is misaligned with the stated mission of the company. 0:38:42.120 --> 0:38:45.080 If you say that you're trying to create safe environments 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:49.360 that emphasize education and safe return to society, it's pretty 0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:52.680 hard to reconcile that with the profit motive. There are 0:38:52.719 --> 0:38:57.440 just huge incentives to cut corners everywhere in safety, in 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:02.799 mental and physical health care, nutrition, education, or any other 0:39:02.880 --> 0:39:07.439 rehabilitation services that you might want to engage in. So 0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:11.000 one of the biggest complaints that I've heard about and 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:15.440 read about is lack of access to actual data about 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:21.080 conditions and about outcomes inside Course Civic facilities. Because these 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:24.000 are private facilities, they aren't subject to things like the 0:39:24.040 --> 0:39:28.680 Freedom of Information Act, So as an act of altruism, 0:39:28.840 --> 0:39:33.560 almost to build trust, Course Civic needs to get radically transparent, 0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:38.480 more transparent than the law requires, more transparent than shareholders demand. 0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:43.720 So my idea is for Course Civic to proactively publish 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.680 all of the data about their outcomes, good, bad, and ugly, 0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:52.680 anonymized appropriately of course, rather than waiting for the government 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:56.720 to mandate it, or or some other group to complain 0:39:56.760 --> 0:39:58.880 about it. Do it because it's the right thing to do, 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:03.400 and because to aligned with with the corsific mission. I 0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:05.640 can I challenge and something before we go down at 0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:09.000 rabbit hole, I encourage it. So I think that the 0:40:09.000 --> 0:40:13.160 way you've set that up is not merely unfair, but 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:16.920 really inaccurate. I don't think that you can square the 0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:22.280 statement that the traditional profit margin issues of a private 0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:28.160 sector entity go to everything from the conditions of incarceration 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:31.000 or the quality of the food or the quality of 0:40:31.000 --> 0:40:32.680 the healthcare. And let me just give you a couple 0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:35.640 of examples. I was incarcerated. The food that we received 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:37.680 and I was in a federal federal facility. The food 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:41.160 that we received expired food out of femal warehouses. There 0:40:41.239 --> 0:40:47.280 is no guarantee whatsoever that because the prisoners are being 0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:52.239 imprisoned by federal employees that the circumstances are any better. 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:55.440 And and you know what really troubles me is, as 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:58.799 a former government contracts lare I understand how performance based 0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:01.719 contracting works. And it's a simple concept. It sounds complicated 0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:05.280 and it's simple. The idea is you set forward standards, 0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:08.440 and if the contractor hits those standards, they're rewarded, and 0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:12.560 if contractor doesn't hit those standards, they're penalized. And after 0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.040 a certain point, if they continue not hitting those standards, 0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:18.719 the contract is cut. You can't do that with unionized employees. 0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:22.640 You cannot do that with government institutions. It is not 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:26.640 possible to do that. I hear that, But my idea, 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:30.879 to be clear, is for Coursivic to proactively publish all 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:35.120 of the data about outcomes, which I don't think they 0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:39.319 do unless I've got that wrong. There there's been a 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:41.160 lot of coverage of it being very hard to get 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:44.920 information out of Coursivic. In two thousand and five, for instance, 0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:47.560 there was a bill called the Private Prison Information Act, 0:41:47.680 --> 0:41:50.920 which attempted to force any private entity contracting with the 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:54.600 government to agree to release information about its operations under 0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:58.000 the same requirements as the Freedom of Information Act, and 0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:01.759 course Civic actively lobbied against it, and it was defeated. 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.279 And so it's actions like that that leave you with 0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:08.360 the strong impression that they have something to hide, even 0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:11.480 if they don't. I totally agree with you that that's 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:14.239 a self inflicted wound that creates a trust gap. I 0:42:14.280 --> 0:42:18.200 am all for transparency. It's pretty hard to advocate on 0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:21.200 criminal justice matters, and I don't advocate on private prison 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:23.800 issues whatsoever, but it's hard to advocate criminal justice matters 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.239 when you don't have data to rely on. But I 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:29.000 will point out one thing, and since you know, kind 0:42:29.000 --> 0:42:32.280 of the operating theme underneath all of this is private 0:42:32.360 --> 0:42:35.600 prisons are worse than public prisons. That there's not a 0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:37.320 whole heck of a lot of disclosure coming out of 0:42:37.320 --> 0:42:40.360 the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Either. That's true, but you 0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:43.160 can get it at it ostensibly through the Freedom of 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:47.080 Information Act. And and the problem there is fragmentation right 0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:50.280 like it's it's there is no central database. I actually 0:42:50.280 --> 0:42:52.680 think we have a lot of information about what course 0:42:52.760 --> 0:42:56.799 if it does specifically explicitly, I should say, because of 0:42:56.840 --> 0:43:01.919 the fact that it is a publicly traded corporation. As 0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:05.680 a result, it files annual reports with the Securities and 0:43:05.760 --> 0:43:09.360 Exchange Commission, It files quarterly reports with the SEC anytime 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:12.880 it's looking to to issue a new round of bonds, 0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:17.720 it issues statements it's trying to lure investors. It holds 0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:21.920 a conference cause that I've tuned into, and so as 0:43:22.000 --> 0:43:24.000 a result, I actually think we have a lot of 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:31.560 information about coursifics operations, and FOYA is a meaningful transparency law, 0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:34.240 but it's not the only transparency law in the United States. 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:37.880 The States also have transparency laws, and so when it 0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:43.160 comes to coursifics operations, on behalf of states government agencies, 0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:48.320 sometimes state transparency laws government secrecy laws actually allow access 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:51.640 to more information than does the Freedom of Information Act 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:54.279 at the federal level. But I'd say that that of 0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:59.000 the many shortcomings with coursivics operations, it's not a lack 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:03.600 of nation about what is happening in its decision making processes. 0:44:03.920 --> 0:44:06.600 And I would just jump on and actually take it 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:09.240 one step further, and that is all across the criminal 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:13.400 justice system, there is a lack of independent oversight regardless 0:44:13.400 --> 0:44:16.120 of whether the operator of the facility is a private 0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:19.000 sector entity or a public sector entity. There just is 0:44:19.000 --> 0:44:22.560 an independent oversight. Yeah, that's a great point and much needed. 0:44:22.600 --> 0:44:27.000 I agree, David. Can I follow up on your idea 0:44:27.160 --> 0:44:31.200 around rethinking the role of guards. It seems very logical 0:44:31.239 --> 0:44:35.839 to me that one possible advantage of privatizing government functions 0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:39.520 like prisons is that private companies tend to be better 0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:42.640 at innovation. Like if you say your mission is better 0:44:42.680 --> 0:44:46.319 outcomes and a safer society, that's a great mission, and 0:44:46.400 --> 0:44:51.080 it's also an invitation for innovation. But I don't see 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:55.560 much of it at core Civic. So a do I 0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:59.440 have that right and and be what other kinds of innovations? 0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:02.920 My cour civic explorer, I would say that it is 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:08.360 difficult to drive innovation when the broader terms of custody 0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:12.560 are governed not by the entity managing the people, but 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:16.080 are are governed by sets of rules and laws that 0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:18.440 are imposed by Congress and by the Bureau of Prisons 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:22.120 or by the state direct corrections departments. For example. You know, 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:25.279 we know that people age out of crime, right We 0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:27.000 know for a fact that the older you get, the 0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:31.279 less likely that the person is going to reoffend. And 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:34.680 so one of the ways to leverage that, take advantage 0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:37.680 of it, to reduce costs and reduce population is to 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:41.000 move people as they age beyond the walls, you know, 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:43.960 still holding them accountable, still putting restrictions on them, but 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:46.719 moving them outside of a traditional prison environment, whether it's 0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:49.160 cour civic or anybody else. You cannot do that under 0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:52.400 current law. They are charged with holding people until the 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:55.000 court says that they're no longer to be held, and 0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:58.279 so those types of innovations are really stifled by what 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:02.919 I would argue is a flexible and desperately in need 0:46:02.960 --> 0:46:06.520 of updating criminal justice system. I would add to that 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:09.880 that they're oftentimes there has to be a reason to innovate, 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:14.120 and so long as they're meeting the expectations of their 0:46:14.160 --> 0:46:19.080 governmental partners, their governmental customers, and reaping the financial rewards 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:20.880 of that, then there is no reason to innovia. So 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:23.120 I actually think that the federal and state governments that 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:26.640 contract with Course Civic are actually very key actors in 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:31.879 the likelihood of Course Civic innovating. By demanding innovations, they 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.960 hold the keys to the government treasury, and as a result, 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:38.120 if they want to see Course Civic move in a 0:46:38.120 --> 0:46:41.040 particular direction, then they have the power to do that. Right. 0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:46.759 What if government's mandated performance based contracts with goals like 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:51.879 recidivism reduction, for instance, to truly incentivize innovation. Why isn't 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:54.440 that going on? Well, you're starting to see that. You're 0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:56.160 starting to see that at some of the state levels. 0:46:56.200 --> 0:47:00.239 I know they've implemented performance based contracting in Pennsylvania, for example, 0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:03.040 with some of their private sector companies. You know, it 0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:06.040 takes a little bit of time to put together meaningful 0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:09.359 performance metrics to judge a company by how they're doing things. 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:12.840 You have all kinds of questions across the private prison 0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:16.960 spectrum in terms of what is to be measured, how 0:47:17.000 --> 0:47:19.800 it is to be measured, what are the stretch goals 0:47:19.960 --> 0:47:24.400 versus regular goals versus penalty levels. It's not easy to 0:47:24.440 --> 0:47:28.040 do performance based contracting, and it really requires somebody with 0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:30.880 knowledge in the contracting space and somebody knowledge in the 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:33.920 criminal justice space. Now, I will tell you this, one 0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:35.440 of the things that I think everybody would love to 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:39.040 see is performance space contracting based on recidivism numbers. And 0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:42.560 the biggest challenge there is something very simple. Everybody defines 0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:45.040 recidivism in a different way. So we need to be 0:47:45.120 --> 0:47:48.840 able to compare apples to apples when it comes to corsifics, 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:54.960 largest contracts in of the company's revenue came from the 0:47:54.960 --> 0:47:59.640 Immigration and Customs and forth mean agency. So we just 0:47:59.640 --> 0:48:02.799 shy thirty of the company's entire revenue in each of 0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:05.440 those years coming from a single government agency. So let 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:07.880 me talk a little bit about that single government agency 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:11.960 ICE and the standards that exist. So ICE actually has, 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:14.799 going back more than a decade now, issued what it 0:48:14.840 --> 0:48:19.040 calls performance based National Detention Standards. This is a series 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:22.919 of rather long and detailed expectations that it imposes on 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:26.279 all of the government contractors, including Course Civic. And yet 0:48:26.360 --> 0:48:29.719 the agency has never been willing to make these binding. 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:33.680 That is, it has never actually required these companies, including 0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:38.400 cours Civic, to meet those detention standards and certainly not 0:48:38.680 --> 0:48:42.920 imposing consequences for failing to meet those detention standards. Is 0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:47.520 the agency is just unwilling to a contract. That's been 0:48:47.560 --> 0:48:50.160 true under President Obama, that's been true under President Trump, 0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:52.759 and you know, we'll see how things shake out under 0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:55.360 President Biden. But I'm not holding my breath because the 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:59.120 politics have not changed sufficiently to turn the agency into 0:48:59.200 --> 0:49:02.000 one that is willing to say two companies like Corcivic, 0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:04.879 you actually have to meet these attention standards, and if 0:49:04.880 --> 0:49:09.080 you don't, there are the severest consequences are coming for you, 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:11.400 and by that we mean we're cutting you off. Shocker 0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:13.719 that a federal agency can't figure out how to do 0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:17.120 good performance based contracting. I think though, that well two things. 0:49:17.160 --> 0:49:20.000 One is, it's difficult to criticize a company for not 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:24.160 going beyond the terms of the contract if that's not 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:27.399 the measure by which the agency intends to hold them accountable. Right. 0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:32.040 But I think the second point is, again, immigration is 0:49:32.080 --> 0:49:37.400 a different set of metrics and performance for private prison companies. 0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:41.040 The goal of incarceration for people who have been convicted 0:49:41.080 --> 0:49:44.600 of the crime, one of the goals is rehabilitation. That's 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:49.239 arguably the most important after segregation and maintaining public safety. 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:53.640 That is a different matter than the goal of detention. 0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:58.240 For immigration, which is purely a segregation matter. Is taking 0:49:58.239 --> 0:50:01.280 people who have been identify fight as being here illegally 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:03.719 and holding them until they can determine what they do 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:06.440 with them. And re entry is is a different animal 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:10.520 altogether when you're talking about immigration detention versus criminal justice detention. Yeah, 0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:12.320 I think when when we're talking about it, almost a 0:50:12.400 --> 0:50:17.480 third right cent of revenue coming from the Immigration Customs 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:20.960 Enforcement Agency. Even if I'd say the position that David's 0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:24.160 articulating that this is a different form of incarceration, it's 0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:27.560 a it's a rather significant form of incarceration for for 0:50:27.600 --> 0:50:30.000 this particular company. For Cours civic, and so I would 0:50:30.040 --> 0:50:33.200 hope that they would be thinking about the complexities um 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:35.919 and the distinctions between this and other forms. I think 0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:39.279 we all in the criminal justice community kind of get 0:50:39.280 --> 0:50:41.480 caught up in the vernacular all the terms, you know, 0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:46.440 justice impacted or ex offender or re entry. Here's what 0:50:46.440 --> 0:50:48.279 we're really talking about. At the end of the day, 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:51.600 when that person walks out of prison, are they likely 0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:55.279 to reoffend and revictimize people in their community. That is 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:59.440 a totally different matter than immigration, where the outcome at 0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:02.600 the end of the incarceration is likely deportation. Yeah, I 0:51:02.640 --> 0:51:05.600 would take issue with with that point, but I'm not 0:51:05.600 --> 0:51:08.279 sure that it's actually relevant to what coursifc does, and 0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:13.120 of Coursivic does what it's asked to do by the 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:16.040 government agencies that it contracts for, and so I would 0:51:16.080 --> 0:51:19.000 agree with your earlier point, David, that it's a little 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:21.719 hard to criticize the company for not doing what it's 0:51:21.760 --> 0:51:24.279 not being asked to do. I think here the criticism 0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:27.759 is rightfully placed with those government agencies and with the 0:51:27.800 --> 0:51:30.920 elect officials who ultimately make the policies, the laws and 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:34.320 the policies that direct the operations of those government agencies, 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.160 And so I'd prefer to focus on my energy on 0:51:36.520 --> 0:51:40.600 thinking about to what extent is Congress as the bureau prisons, immigration, cousins, 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:43.160 Enforcement Agency, et cetera. You know what extent are they 0:51:43.400 --> 0:51:48.759 poorly incentivizing Courcivic to live up to its desires to aspirations, 0:51:48.840 --> 0:51:52.279 at least as articulated earlier by Thai referencing it's it's 0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:56.920 it's missions. I want to build on the direction that 0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:00.600 this this conversation has has taken in this movie of us, 0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:03.960 maybe slightly away from course Civic, But I'll start with 0:52:04.080 --> 0:52:07.360 just a question. Do we think that private prisons and 0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:11.879 the privatization of the prison system is a result of, 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:16.200 or related to the US culture of of mass incarceration. 0:52:16.400 --> 0:52:18.960 The reason I bring this up is because back in 0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:23.600 nineteen sixty one when Dwight Eisenhower, when he was leaving office, 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:26.200 his final warning to the American people was about the 0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:29.719 rising power of what he called the military industrial complex. 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:32.680 And today we see the U S engaged in what 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:37.240 have become called forever Wars. Do either of you worry 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:41.759 that we're seeing the rise of the prison industrial complex. 0:52:41.920 --> 0:52:46.319 Government and the private sector wrapped together around the most 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:50.000 vulnerable members of society essentially feeding off their misery. I 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:52.359 think that that might have been a plausible narrative going 0:52:52.440 --> 0:52:58.960 back into the early two thousand's, particularly the aspect related 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:02.040 to the private sector company. There is I won't use 0:53:02.040 --> 0:53:06.759 the term collusion, but there's certainly alignment between incarceration and 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:10.600 economic development. It's perceived by local officials. Have you ever 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:13.080 tried to close a federal prison or even a state prison. 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:15.880 You get protesters all over the place because it's loss 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:19.799 of jobs. So it's not a prison industrial complex per se, 0:53:19.840 --> 0:53:23.040 but certainly some of the actors in the criminal justice 0:53:23.080 --> 0:53:27.279 system have a bias towards maintaining prisons that have to 0:53:27.320 --> 0:53:31.279 be filled. And most of those actors are people who 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:33.800 are feeding at the trough, whether they are corrections officers, 0:53:33.800 --> 0:53:37.920 prison administrators, vendors selling food to the commissaries, all the 0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:40.600 way up and down the chain to prosecutors and law enforcement. 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:43.680 I would echo that m concerning I actually say at 0:53:43.719 --> 0:53:46.880 the state level, this is actually a much more pressing 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:51.319 issue because there you're dealing would local elected officials, often 0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:56.280 state legislators and county commissioners, sheriffs, who really quite clearly 0:53:56.440 --> 0:54:00.760 is see prisons as economic development opportunity these or economic 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:03.920 development engines, and it's not at all abstract because those 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:05.919 are the people who live in those communities. And often 0:54:05.960 --> 0:54:09.319 these are very rural communities, they're isolated communities. These are 0:54:09.400 --> 0:54:13.959 places where well paying jobs, decent paying jobs, are hard 0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:16.719 to come by. And so the thoughts that your two 0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:20.439 hundred person private prison facility is about to close down 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.800 means that two hundred of your constituents are about to 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:26.160 go out of a job. And that's a concern for 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:29.000 any elected official who's thinking about re election. It's also 0:54:29.120 --> 0:54:31.800 just a concern for a neighbor right, who's thinking about 0:54:32.040 --> 0:54:35.920 livelihoods of the people who live down the street from them, right, 0:54:35.960 --> 0:54:39.440 who make that community. Whatever, whatever the community is, they 0:54:39.480 --> 0:54:43.440 are that community. Okay, this has been a great conversation, um, 0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:45.040 but there are a couple of things that I need 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:49.280 to do to wrap us up. I want to each 0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:52.240 of you to give Course Civic a B S score, 0:54:53.239 --> 0:54:57.759 So on a scale of zero to one hundred being 0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:00.600 the worst total b S and zero roal being the 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:05.640 best zero bs. What would you give Course Civic based 0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:09.360 on how they are are delivering on their mission? Say sorry, 0:55:09.400 --> 0:55:13.560 why don't you go first, Yeah, I think i'd say 0:55:13.600 --> 0:55:18.799 they're they're sevent bs. We'll take it. And David, you know, 0:55:18.880 --> 0:55:22.120 I don't think anybody in this space is perfect. I 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:24.919 think there's always room for improvement. But I don't think 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:28.279 the core Civic is the company that has been demonized, 0:55:28.360 --> 0:55:30.600 or I don't think the company reflects some of the 0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:33.440 allegations out there. I'd give him a fifteen. That's great. 0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:35.759 Thank you so much for being here today, both of you. 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:37.719 This was this was a lot of fun. I really 0:55:37.760 --> 0:55:52.040 appreciate you taking the times. So, folks, it's time to 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:57.440 give Course Civic our official BS score. As you've heard today, 0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:01.160 this one is complicated, so actually a little hard to 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:04.760 make this call because our experts were so divided. Sharon 0:56:04.800 --> 0:56:08.799 gave them a hundred, says are seventy and David gave 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:13.840 them fifteen. Because their business model doesn't align with their purpose, 0:56:14.120 --> 0:56:18.320 and because they lack transparency, I've decided to give Course 0:56:18.360 --> 0:56:22.719 Civic a sixty eight. To weigh in with your own 0:56:22.760 --> 0:56:26.120 score or to leave us a message, visit our website 0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:30.440 Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. We'll track Course Civic's behavior 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:32.960 over time to see if they can bring that score 0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:36.160 down you'll also be able to see where they rank 0:56:36.239 --> 0:56:39.319 on BS compared to the other companies we feature on 0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:44.200 this show. And if you're running a purpose led business 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:47.520 or you're thinking of beginning the journey of transformation to 0:56:47.600 --> 0:56:51.200 become one, here are three things you should take away 0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:57.360 from this episode. One, your business model and your purpose 0:56:57.560 --> 0:57:01.040 need to align. That's one of the first principles of 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:05.040 being purpose led. It's why being purpose led is different 0:57:05.080 --> 0:57:09.680 than engaging in corporate social responsibility. That old fashioned model 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:12.800 held that companies could make their money anyway they wanted 0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:16.320 and then spend some of their profits on good causes 0:57:16.480 --> 0:57:21.600 to solve their souls. In course civics case, they make 0:57:21.680 --> 0:57:25.439 money on the number of prisoners in their facilities, not 0:57:25.720 --> 0:57:30.760 on successfully rehabilitating them and reintroducing them to society. That's 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:37.880 a problem. Two. Action is always the cure. Today we 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:41.960 discussed actions for cour civic like actively engaging with the 0:57:42.040 --> 0:57:46.360 government to create contracts that give them financial incentives to 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:51.120 achieve their purpose of successfully reintroducing people to society and 0:57:51.200 --> 0:57:57.720 reducing recidivism, and ideas like hiring social workers as prison guards, 0:57:58.520 --> 0:58:02.760 or ideas like becoming proactively transparent with their data and 0:58:02.880 --> 0:58:07.360 holding themselves accountable for hitting the key metrics outlined in 0:58:07.400 --> 0:58:12.080 their purpose, the actions for your company will undoubtedly be different. 0:58:12.360 --> 0:58:19.040 The point is doing is believing and three hope is 0:58:19.080 --> 0:58:23.760 not a strategy, and neither is hiding. Unlike many of 0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:27.360 the organizations we've covered this season, cour Civic isn't a 0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:31.800 household name, but that definitely does not mean that they 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:36.720 won't eventually be held accountable. Reform in this industry is inevitable. 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:41.120 So no matter what industry you're in, if you're hoping 0:58:41.160 --> 0:58:44.440 to exist behind the scenes and under the radar and 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:48.200 get away with being accountable only to your shareholders and 0:58:48.320 --> 0:58:53.080 not to your broader stakeholders, it's time for a new strategy. 0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:57.480 And David Heineger, CEO of Course Civic, if you ever 0:58:57.520 --> 0:58:59.760 want to come on this show to talk about any 0:58:59.800 --> 0:59:03.080 of of topics and ideas we've discussed today, you have 0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:14.640 an open invitation. I'd like to thank everyone who joined 0:59:14.720 --> 0:59:19.680 us today, Sharon Brett, David Sefabian, and say Sar Hernandez. 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:22.920 You can find all of them on social media. We 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:26.320 have all of their handles on our website, Calling Bullshit 0:59:26.480 --> 0:59:31.880 podcast dot com, and check out Saysar's books migrating to prison, 0:59:32.000 --> 0:59:36.920 America's obsession with locking up immigrants, and the krimmigration law. 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:41.920 If you have ideas for companies or organizations we should 0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:45.480 consider for future episodes, you can submit them on the 0:59:45.520 --> 0:59:50.360 site too, And if we unlock something important for you today, 0:59:50.800 --> 0:59:53.880 Subscribe to the Calling Bullshit podcast on the I Heart 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:58.520 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:00:00.720 --> 1:00:04.760 And thanks to our production team, Hannah Beal, Amanda Ginsburg, 1:00:05.240 --> 1:00:12.160 Andy Kim d s Moss, Hailey Pascalites, MICHAELA. Reid, Parker Silzer, 1:00:12.560 --> 1:00:17.600 Basil Soaper and me John Zulu. Calling Bullshit was created 1:00:17.600 --> 1:00:21.120 by co Collective and is hosted by Me Time onto you. 1:00:21.960 --> 1:00:30.720 Thanks for listening before you go, we'd love to hear 1:00:30.760 --> 1:00:33.720 what you think about the show. Maybe you were inspired 1:00:33.760 --> 1:00:37.160 to take action, maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating. 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:40.360 Either way, we want to hear about it. Leave us 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:44.360 a message at two one two five oh five zero five, 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:47.760 or send a voice memo to CBS podcast at co 1:00:47.760 --> 1:00:51.240 collective dot com. You might even be featured on an 1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:52.320 upcoming episode.