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Speaker 1: For more than thirty years. We've put service at the

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Speaker 1: center of everything we do, working side by side with government.

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Speaker 1: We serve people, we serve ideals, We serve the public good.

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Speaker 1: Corrections Corporation of America has been under screeting before, Bakers

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Speaker 1: sparred over the treatment of inmates and privately run cour

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Speaker 1: Civic jail watching while an enmy was beaten, failed to

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Speaker 1: turn over, understaffed, putting employees at risk people even keeping

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Speaker 1: people safe. We are cour Civic. Welcome to Calling Bullshit

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Speaker 1: podcast about purpose washing, the gap between what companies say

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Speaker 1: they stand for and what they actually do, and what

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Speaker 1: they would need to change to practice what they preach.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, time onto you, and I've spent over

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Speaker 1: a decade helping companies define what they stand for, their

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Speaker 1: purpose and then help them to use that purpose to

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Speaker 1: drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at a lot of

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Speaker 1: organizations today, they're still a pretty wide gap between word. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: that gap has a name. We call it bullshit. But,

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Speaker 1: and this is important, we believe that bullshit is a

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Speaker 1: treatable disease. So when the BS detector lights up, we're

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Speaker 1: going to explore things that a company should do to

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Speaker 1: fix it. In this episode, we're going to take a

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Speaker 1: look at Course Civic, a private risen company whose purposes

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Speaker 1: quote to provide high quality, compassionate treatment to all those

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Speaker 1: in our care. We operate safe facilities that provide education

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Speaker 1: and effective reentry programming to help individuals make positive changes

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Speaker 1: so they can return to the community successfully. That sounds

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Speaker 1: like a worthy purpose, but Course Civic operates in an

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Speaker 1: industry that raises some profound questions about the nature of

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Speaker 1: for profit incarceration. Questions like what happens when your purpose

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Speaker 1: and your business model are in direct opposition to one another,

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Speaker 1: what role does the government play in helping or hindering

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Speaker 1: Course Civic from achieving its purpose? And ultimately, do we

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Speaker 1: see any gaps between word and d. With the help

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Speaker 1: of an A c O. You attorney, a professor of

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Speaker 1: immigration rights, and the director of the Nolan Center for Justice,

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Speaker 1: We're about to find the answers to understand the story

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Speaker 1: of Course Civic. We first need to understand the story

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Speaker 1: of private prisons in America, and to do that, we

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Speaker 1: really need to understand our country's entire history of punishment

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Speaker 1: and incarceration. Historically, punishment for those convicted of a crime

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Speaker 1: tended to be direct, immediate and public convicts were shackled

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Speaker 1: and put on display in the town square or sometimes

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Speaker 1: whipped or in extreme cases, publicly put to debt. Some

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Speaker 1: would argue this was barbaric, but one redeeming quality was

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Speaker 1: it was completely transparent. Everybody knew what the state was

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Speaker 1: doing to its citizens. But in sev seven, the Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: Prison Society implemented the separate confinement theory of punishment. Instead

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Speaker 1: of inflicting immediate pain or shame on a criminal, the

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Speaker 1: separate confinement theory emphasized isolated confinement of the prisoners to

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Speaker 1: give them ample time to ponder their mistakes and make

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Speaker 1: their peace with God, also known as penance, hence the

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Speaker 1: term penitentiary. Both a philosophical and architectural punishment strategy, separate

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Speaker 1: confinement quickly became the dominant practice in states throughout America.

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Speaker 1: This practice moved the punishment of citizens by the government

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Speaker 1: out of public view. It now took place behind paul

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Speaker 1: walls and locked gates. In eighteen sixty, with the Civil

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Speaker 1: War now over, the thirte Amendment finally abolished slavery. However,

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Speaker 1: within that amendment, the six word clause except as punishment

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Speaker 1: for crime, legally permitted prisons to lease out prisoners as

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Speaker 1: involuntary servants to private industry. This convict leasing clause resulted

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Speaker 1: in a dramatic increase of prisoner primarily black men, and

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Speaker 1: normalize the practice of prison labor. The concept of a

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Speaker 1: federal prison was established in eighteen ninety one with the

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Speaker 1: Three Prisons Act, and by nineteen thirty Congress stepped in

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Speaker 1: once more to create the Bureau of Prisons to manage

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Speaker 1: the growing number of federal penitentiaries. In the subsequent decades,

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Speaker 1: the Bureau of Prisons nearly doubled the number of inmates

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Speaker 1: and prisons. It also modernized its practices during this time,

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Speaker 1: making quote rehabilitation and treatment the leading doctrines in corrections. Then,

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, as a reaction to the Vietnam

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Speaker 1: War protests, uprisings in l a and in Harlem, and

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Speaker 1: the Watts Right, President Johnson called for a quote war

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Speaker 1: on crime. The American people have had enough of rising

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Speaker 1: crime and lawlessness in this country. President Nixon campaigned as

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Speaker 1: the law and order President. I pledged to you, the

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Speaker 1: wave of crime is not going to be the wave

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Speaker 1: of the future. In America and then President Reagan declared

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Speaker 1: his war on drugs our society. By the time President

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Speaker 1: Clinton left office, prison populations had risen more than under

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Speaker 1: the previous two administrations combined. Because each administration had doubled

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Speaker 1: down on who could be the toughest on crime, they

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Speaker 1: were now more prisoners than prisons to hold them. America

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Speaker 1: had a prison problem, and so three entrepreneurs from Tennessee

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Speaker 1: did what entrepreneurs do. They came up with an idea

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Speaker 1: to solve this problem, and the private prison was born.

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Speaker 1: The Corrections Corporation of America was founded in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: three by then chairman of the Tennessee Republican Party Thomas Beasley,

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Speaker 1: American Correctional Association President T. Don Huddo, and real Estate

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Speaker 1: CFO Robert Krantz. At the time, forty one states had

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Speaker 1: been declared by the federal courts to be operating their

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Speaker 1: prison systems in an unconstitutional fashion. Corrections Corporation of America

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Speaker 1: saw an opportunity to capitalize on what they said was

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Speaker 1: a complacent government operation that was overwhelmed with demand. The

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Speaker 1: system is and has been in a downwards viral for

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Speaker 1: many many years, overcrowding and virtually every facility at the federal, state,

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Speaker 1: and local level. Corrections Corporation of America was founded in

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Speaker 1: early nineteen eighty three with one goal in mind, provide

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Speaker 1: an innovative alternative to the administrative and budgetary constraints of

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Speaker 1: the existing corrections and detention systems. Their two years later,

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Speaker 1: with over one point eight billion dollars in annual revenue,

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Speaker 1: and now renamed Course Civic, the company is the largest

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Speaker 1: private prison corporation in the United States, operating approximately eighty

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Speaker 1: correctional and detention facilities. Until recently, I had never even

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Speaker 1: heard of Course Civic. They first caught my attention on

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Speaker 1: Newsweek's list of the most Responsible Companies of one that

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Speaker 1: made me curious, So I did a little googling issues

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Speaker 1: ranging from inadequate safety equipment to extreme procedural hundred grievances

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Speaker 1: alleging mistreatment and excessive force, from medical issues to alleged

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Speaker 1: officers claimed the conditions inside the detention identified serious concerns

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Speaker 1: regarding detainee care, and I was amazed at what my

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Speaker 1: research revealed. Increasing violence and deadly violence. That's Sharon Brett,

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Speaker 1: legal director at the American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas.

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Speaker 1: When these things started to come to our attention and

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Speaker 1: we are tracking them. We said, it sounds like there's

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Speaker 1: something bigger going on here. Sharon's story of the a

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Speaker 1: c l U and other Kansas public defenders trying to

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Speaker 1: shut down Course Civics Leavenworth facility was only one of

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Speaker 1: a long list of alarming reports. Course Civic says its

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Speaker 1: purpose is to provide high quality, compassionate treatment to all

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Speaker 1: of those in their care, to operate safe facilities, and

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Speaker 1: to help individuals make positive changes so they can return

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Speaker 1: to the community successfully. So is that actually true or

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Speaker 1: is it just a bunch of bullshit? Get out your

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Speaker 1: BS detectors, folks and set them on high, because this

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Speaker 1: one gets deep. More on that right after this before

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Speaker 1: you head to the break. We'd love to hear what

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Speaker 1: you think about the show. Maybe you were inspired to

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Speaker 1: take action, Maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating. Either way,

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Speaker 1: we want to hear about it. Leave us a message

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Speaker 1: at two one two five oh five three zero five,

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Speaker 1: or send a voice memo to CBS podcast at co

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Speaker 1: collective dot com. You might even be featured on an

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Speaker 1: upcoming episode Welcome Back to better understand the private prison

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Speaker 1: business model and to figure out if it's even possible

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Speaker 1: for cour Civic to truly live their purpose. I first

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Speaker 1: spoke with an attorney with deep expertise in the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system, Sharon Brett, legal director at the a c

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Speaker 1: l U Kansas. Okay, well, let's get into it. Sharon,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Bullshit Podcast. Thanks for having me. I want to

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Speaker 1: start out by just delving into your experience with the

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Speaker 1: Leavenworth Prison, which is a Coursivic facility, and I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you could just talk about why you and other

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Speaker 1: public defenders decided to take action there. We heard from

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Speaker 1: a number of people through our legal intake system at

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Speaker 1: the a c l U of Kansas that there were

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Speaker 1: problems at Coursivic Love and Worth that were increasing over

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Speaker 1: the last eight to ten months or so. The facility

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Speaker 1: was getting more violent, there was more drugs and contraband

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Speaker 1: inside the facility. There are fewer staff members around, and

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Speaker 1: so it seemed like the facility was really struggling just

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Speaker 1: to cover the basic shifts. And when we talked with

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Speaker 1: our partners at the Federal Public Defenders Office in Kansas,

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Speaker 1: they have been hearing the same thing from their clients,

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Speaker 1: and they had atually had seen the same stuff from

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Speaker 1: their clients when they had gone to visit their clients

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Speaker 1: or speak with them over the phone, and that became

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Speaker 1: alarming to us. Right, So what did you discover as

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Speaker 1: a result of stepping in. We talked to some former

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Speaker 1: correctional officers at Percivic and they had talked about how

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Speaker 1: they had quit because they felt unsafe at their job.

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Speaker 1: We talked to what individual who had been stabbed multiple

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Speaker 1: times by people incarcerated at the facility. Yeah, he'd been

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Speaker 1: sent to local hospitals for treatment three different times, and

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Speaker 1: he finally said enough is enough. And there's a point

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Speaker 1: over the summer where the locks didn't work on a

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Speaker 1: lot of the cells inside the facility. What I mean,

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Speaker 1: whether they deserve to be in there or not is

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Speaker 1: a completely different issue. But once they're in there, it

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Speaker 1: seems like you want doors that have locks that work.

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Speaker 1: And you you mentioned something when you were relaying the

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Speaker 1: story that stuck out to me. Are there, in general

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Speaker 1: fewer guards in private prisons than in regular government facilities?

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Speaker 1: There certainly shouldn't be. There's no separate set of standards

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Speaker 1: that apply to correctional facilities that are run for profit.

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Speaker 1: I see, and but were there fewer at Leavenworth than

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Speaker 1: than they're needed to be? That's what we understand. And

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Speaker 1: this location, I understand is contracted with the US Marshalls Service.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, So the facility run by Coursivic

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Speaker 1: and Love and Worth is under a contract with the U.

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Speaker 1: S Marshall Service, which means that it holds people who

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Speaker 1: are facing federal charges but who have not yet been

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Speaker 1: convicted or have pled guilty to those charges. So it's

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Speaker 1: all people who are pre trial on federal charges inside

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Speaker 1: that facility. I see. Okay, And could you just for

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Speaker 1: our listeners talk a little bit about how private prison

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Speaker 1: contracts generally work. They sort of work how any other

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Speaker 1: business contract would work. So you have an entity that

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Speaker 1: needs a service. In this case, the service is the

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Speaker 1: caging of human beings who are facing federal charges, and

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Speaker 1: they put in a bid for that contract, and there's

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Speaker 1: regulations on the federal government side that governed the type

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Speaker 1: of care that needs to be provided. And obviously, because

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Speaker 1: this private company is assuming the role of the jailer

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Speaker 1: for the federal government, the private company has to comply

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Speaker 1: with things like the United States Constitution just as the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Martial Service would. Can you tell us a little more

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Speaker 1: about the executive order from President Biden which prevents Courcivic

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Speaker 1: from renewing the leaven Worth contract and what that might

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Speaker 1: mean for cour Civic and other private prisons. So one

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Speaker 1: of the first things that President Biden did when he

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Speaker 1: took office was issued this executive order which called on

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Speaker 1: the U. S. Martial Service and the Federal Bureau of Prisons,

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Speaker 1: which holds the post trial that convicted population on federal charges.

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Speaker 1: Called on those two entities, which fall under the Department

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Speaker 1: of Justice, to end contracts with private detention companies like

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Speaker 1: cours Civic and the Geo Group and others, So once

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Speaker 1: they reach their term of expiration, the contract would be done,

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Speaker 1: that relationship would end, And Biden's executive order prevented the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice from entering into any new contracts to

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Speaker 1: hold federal detainees or federal prisoners at a facility run

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Speaker 1: by a private corporation. Why did they do that. I

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Speaker 1: think it came from this recognition that private companies are

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Speaker 1: not going to place the constitutional rights of the people

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Speaker 1: that they detain over their profit votives. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: big question. Mark for me when I read Course civics

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Speaker 1: stated mission. They say their mission is to operate safe

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Speaker 1: facilities that provide education and effective reentry programming to help

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Speaker 1: individuals make positive changes so they can return to the

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Speaker 1: community successfully, which is a great mission. It's just that

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Speaker 1: many of those tenants are in direct opposition to the

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Speaker 1: business model. In other words, there's so many incentives to

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Speaker 1: cut corners on safety, on mental and physical health, on nutrition,

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Speaker 1: on rehabilitation. I'm interested in how they justify that if

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Speaker 1: you have heard them speak to that, and I also

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Speaker 1: wonder how the government justifies that. Well. One thing I

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Speaker 1: think is unique about prison corporations is that the public

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Speaker 1: truly lacks access to what's actually happening inside the walls,

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Speaker 1: and the shareholders of that company lack access to what's

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Speaker 1: happening inside those facilities. So they can have such a bold,

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Speaker 1: beautiful mission statement like the one Course Civic has and

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Speaker 1: completely and utterly failed to live up to it, and

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Speaker 1: no one would have any idea. Frankly, there's a large

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Speaker 1: portion of America and a large portion of our politicians

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Speaker 1: who don't really care what's happening to people who are incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: That begs the question, do we know if Course Civic

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Speaker 1: is measuring any of these things? In other words, does

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Speaker 1: data exist that we don't have access to? Not that

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Speaker 1: I've seen, So I can't find data on their website

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Speaker 1: about a lot of things that I would typically look

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Speaker 1: for in measuring whether they're running a constitutional prison. And

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Speaker 1: maybe it's worth saying, for a moment, backing up a

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Speaker 1: little bit and talking about the work that I did

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Speaker 1: before I came to the sail you, because I think

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit relevant here, please do yes. So

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Speaker 1: for a while, I started my career as an attorney

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Speaker 1: with the Department of Justice in the Civil Rights Division,

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Speaker 1: so not the part of the Department of Justice that

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Speaker 1: houses federal prisoners, but the part of the Department of

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Speaker 1: Justice that investigates state and local facilities for constitutional violations

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Speaker 1: within their prisons in jails. So I have years of

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Speaker 1: experience going into facilities that are under consent decrees with

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Speaker 1: the federal government because they run unconstitutional prisons and jails,

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Speaker 1: and there's you look at those consent decrees and there's

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Speaker 1: a whole list of things that the facility needs to

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Speaker 1: be measuring to show that they're in compliance with the

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Speaker 1: Constitution and you don't see that type of data or

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Speaker 1: that reporting on coursivis website, and it's certainly not stuff

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Speaker 1: that's talked about in their shareholder calls either, because what

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Speaker 1: they're trying to do in those calls is get people

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Speaker 1: to invest in their company. So if they were producing

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Speaker 1: data such as the numbers of incidents of force inside

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Speaker 1: the facility, the number of sexual assaults occurring inside a facility,

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Speaker 1: the number of complaints received by people incarcerated there, and

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Speaker 1: whether any of those had merit, they wouldn't be raking

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Speaker 1: in the profits. I think if they were actually reporting

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Speaker 1: on the numbers of what's up actually happening inside. Does

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Speaker 1: the Freedom of Information Act apply to cour Civic coursivis

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Speaker 1: a private entity, so there are some case law that

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Speaker 1: says that they don't have to respond to those foyer requests,

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Speaker 1: and I think this has been something that's been fought

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Speaker 1: in courts before, but it's a real concern. So there's

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Speaker 1: just this lack of access to what's actually happening inside

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Speaker 1: of there. And I will say even state agencies or

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Speaker 1: or state facilities that are subject to state based open

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Speaker 1: records laws, or the federal government which is subject to FOIA,

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Speaker 1: it still can be very, very difficult to get data.

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Speaker 1: Do for profit private prisons legally infringe on a person's

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Speaker 1: civil liberties? In other words, are they legal? I think

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Speaker 1: that they are legal entities. Right. The federal government has

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Speaker 1: the authority to contract out for services to private corporations.

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Speaker 1: They do that all the time for all sorts of

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Speaker 1: different things. Right. They do it in the military, they

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Speaker 1: do it in industry. I think it's how private prisons

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Speaker 1: run their business that's unconstitutional. Right, How how would you

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Speaker 1: say the government is implicated in the supply and demand

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Speaker 1: of this business model? In other words, have we created

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Speaker 1: a culture of mass incarceration without a doubt? And that's

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Speaker 1: not just on the private prison industries backs, right, that's

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Speaker 1: on politicians dating back decades. But mass incarceration is here.

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Speaker 1: It has been here for a long time. And I

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Speaker 1: want to take a moment to mention because I haven't

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Speaker 1: mentioned it yet here, but I think it's an important point.

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Speaker 1: The vast majority of people who are incarcerated across our

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Speaker 1: country are people of color, and this system disproportionately impacts

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Speaker 1: minorities and disproportionately impacts people without economic means, and so

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Speaker 1: there's an element of what these private corporations are doing here,

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Speaker 1: which is reinforcing white supremacy and reinforcing a deeply racist

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Speaker 1: criminal legal system in our country and allowing that to perpetuate.

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Speaker 1: Some of the statistics are eye popping. One out of

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Speaker 1: every three black boys born today can expect to go

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Speaker 1: to prison in his lifetime, one in every six Latino

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Speaker 1: boys compared to one of every seventeen white children. And

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Speaker 1: the fastest growing prison population is female. But I will

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Speaker 1: say that the prison population has begun to go down

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Speaker 1: overall in the country, and I think that's as we

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Speaker 1: recognize that prisons are not the answer to many of

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Speaker 1: the problems that plague society, and that we really need

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Speaker 1: to be reinvesting in our communities, in jobs, in education,

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Speaker 1: in housing. That's the way that you prevent crime, not

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Speaker 1: by incarcerating people. We will never incarceraate ourselves out of

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Speaker 1: a crime in the United States. It's not possible to

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Speaker 1: do that, and in fact, lots of studies have shown

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Speaker 1: that long periods of incarceration actually don't do a whole

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Speaker 1: heck of a lot for reducing the crime rate. What

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Speaker 1: we need to be doing is investing in communities instead.

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Speaker 1: I read also as a part of this, there are

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Speaker 1: a number of states that spend more on incarceration than

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Speaker 1: they do on education. And that's telling right, that's telling

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Speaker 1: you where our priorities are. So the famous saying is

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Speaker 1: that budgets are a moral document. And when you look

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Speaker 1: at a budget and you see how much money goes

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Speaker 1: towards policing and how much money goes to its corrections,

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Speaker 1: and you compare that to how much goes towards alleviating

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Speaker 1: food and security, towards education, towards transportation, it really shows

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Speaker 1: you where our values are. Now, I want to delve

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Speaker 1: into the realm of essentially your opinion around the morality

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Speaker 1: of these things, because I read a book called Inside

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Speaker 1: Private Prisons and American Dilemma in the Age of Mass Incarceration,

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Speaker 1: which was an amazing book, and in it there was

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Speaker 1: a quote from a prisoner and it reads, I realized

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Speaker 1: that someone has found a way to make money off

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Speaker 1: of my mistakes, my pain, my misfortune, and that right

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Speaker 1: there was the biggest blow to the head. It was, Oh,

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Speaker 1: my god, our country is so obsessed with incarcerating us

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Speaker 1: and thinks we are such bad people that they're now

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Speaker 1: making money off of us being bad, What sort of

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Speaker 1: hope for us is there? And that really, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That just resonated with me. It's like it's it almost

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Speaker 1: adds to the punishment in a way, to know that

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Speaker 1: you are a commodity when you think about it. The

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Speaker 1: existence of private prison companies is an acceptance of the

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Speaker 1: idea that we can and should be profiting off the

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Speaker 1: caging of human beings, that we need to be putting

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Speaker 1: more people into the criminal justice system so that we

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Speaker 1: can fill the beds, and these private facilities in turn

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Speaker 1: a profit right. The facility makes money if all of

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Speaker 1: its beds are filled, and they make less money if

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Speaker 1: we as a country begin to decarceorate. So you see

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Speaker 1: the private prison lobby pushing back against what I think

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Speaker 1: has been a trend across the country of people saying

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Speaker 1: the war on drugs was a mistake. The tough on

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Speaker 1: crime mentality of these politicians is wrong, long and immoral,

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Speaker 1: and we need to be decarcerating. We need to be

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Speaker 1: thinking about ways to keep people out of the criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system. That doesn't help private prison companies. Private prison

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Speaker 1: companies want the machinery of incarceration to continue to churn

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Speaker 1: because that's what makes them money, and so there's something

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Speaker 1: inherently immoral about that at its base. One other topic

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to touch on was I've read arguments

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Speaker 1: for private prisons that that are along the lines of

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Speaker 1: the government tends to be bad at things like innovation

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Speaker 1: and private organizations. Private businesses are where innovation really happens.

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Speaker 1: And so Coursivic says its mission is better outcomes and

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Speaker 1: a safer society. That's a great mission. It's also an

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Speaker 1: invitation for innovation. But looking through all of the available data,

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Speaker 1: I didn't see very much innovation going on in Coursivic

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Speaker 1: facilities or any private prisons. Are you aware of any

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Speaker 1: innovation taking place? Not by course Civic, but I I

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Speaker 1: would push back on the idea that we should care

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Speaker 1: the most about. There's no innovative way to cage a

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Speaker 1: human being, right There's so there's nothing innovative about the

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Speaker 1: private prison model. I could understand innovation in other industries,

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Speaker 1: but we're talking about mass caging of human beings. When

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Speaker 1: you frame it in that light, and you're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: private prisons could innovate here, like you could hear how

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Speaker 1: ridiculous that sounds, right? I grant you that that sounds

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Speaker 1: sound ridiculous. However, just one idea. For instance, what if

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Speaker 1: governments mandated perform and space contracts with goals like recidivism reduction,

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Speaker 1: for instance, to truly incentivize the system, to try to

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Speaker 1: prevent people from winding up back in the system. Sure,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's a contract that could improve outcomes, but I

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Speaker 1: would posit that the private corporation would say that, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not the business I'm in, Like, that's that's not

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Speaker 1: going to help me maximize my profit. And they are

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Speaker 1: there to turn a profit. Whatever their mission statement is.

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Speaker 1: Businesses have to fulfill their mission statement in a way

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Speaker 1: that earns their shareholders money, and so I just don't

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Speaker 1: see them being willing to do something like that in

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Speaker 1: a meaningful way that actually changes outcomes for people. All right, Sharon,

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Speaker 1: is there anything else on this topic that you think

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Speaker 1: listeners ought to know. The one thing that I think

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Speaker 1: is worth mentioning here is that Biden's executive order only

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Speaker 1: applies to the Department of Justice contracts. So a trend

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Speaker 1: that we are seeing across the country right now is

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Speaker 1: that as these contracts expire and are not renewed, pursuant

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Speaker 1: to the executive order. Private corporations like Coursivic and Geo

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Speaker 1: Group are looking to other federal agencies for contracts to

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Speaker 1: try to fill those beds, such as ICE. So they

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Speaker 1: are looking to turn these empty facilities into immigration detention facilities,

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Speaker 1: which raises a whole host of additional concerns, one of

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Speaker 1: them being that we were able to know what was

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Speaker 1: happening inside of Courcivic in part because the people who

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Speaker 1: are incarcerated at that facility in leaven Worth were all

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Speaker 1: pre trial, meaning they had to be able to contact

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Speaker 1: their lawyers whenever they wanted, and their lawyers had to

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Speaker 1: be able to contact them to prepare for their defense.

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Speaker 1: So the federal public defenders were able to sound the

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Speaker 1: alarm on what was happening here because they had this

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Speaker 1: right of acts us that's inherent for pre child attention facilities.

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Speaker 1: If this turns into an ICE facility, that access goes away,

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Speaker 1: and that means we will have even less of an

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Speaker 1: idea of what's happening inside. And these are people who,

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Speaker 1: by many many arguments, should not be in a detention

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Speaker 1: setting at all, agreed, and that's that's a big part

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Speaker 1: of course civics business as I understand, of all the

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Speaker 1: private prison companies, Coursivic is the one that is biggest

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Speaker 1: into immigration detention. And we could just see it get

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Speaker 1: worse because of the ending of the contracts with BOP

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Speaker 1: and the US Martial Service and then turning those facilities

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Speaker 1: into ice facilities just so they can keep the beds

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Speaker 1: field and still have money made on that institution. And

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Speaker 1: why why do we put them in prison? What is

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Speaker 1: the rationale? That is a question for somebody who is

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Speaker 1: in favor of detaining people who are awaiting de quortation.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not the area of law that I have

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Speaker 1: expertise in, and I've feel deeply that that these individuals

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Speaker 1: can safely be in the community and should not be

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Speaker 1: detained in warehouses like they are right now. Sharon. We

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Speaker 1: have something on calling BS that we call the B

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Speaker 1: S scale. So on a scale of zero to one

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Speaker 1: hundred being the worst total BS and zero being the

433
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: best zero BS, what score would you give Course Civic.

434
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: I mean, so one fifty is not an option here?

435
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that what you're saying? It max is

436
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: out at a hundred, But if you want to go

437
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: to a hundred fleas I think you know what I'm

438
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: gonna say here and it's and it's a hundred beautiful.

439
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks for thank you for coming on

440
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: the show. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, it's

441
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: been great to be here. The conversation with Sharon confirmed

442
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: a couple of concerns that I initially had about privatization

443
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: of the prison system. Course Civic lacks transparency, and the

444
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: business model is pretty troubling. Ideally, in a purpose led company,

445
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: the purpose and the business model are aligned. In other words,

446
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: the more the company succeeds at delivering on its purpose,

447
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: the better it does financially. In the case of Courcivic,

448
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: and to be fair other private prison companies, that doesn't

449
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: seem to be the case, and that corrodes trust. So folks,

450
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: it's time to make the call. Is Courcivic a bullshitter?

451
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: Based on what I've heard so far? I got to

452
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: agree with Sharon and call BS. But remember, on this

453
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: show we believe b S is a treatable condition. So

454
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: after the break, we'll hear from two more experts in

455
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: incarceration and prison reform about some ideas that might just

456
00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: help Courcivic actually deliver its purpose stick with us. Before

457
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: the break, we concluded that there is a pretty sizable

458
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: gap between word and deed at Core Civic. So we've

459
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: called b s now. The question is what should CEO

460
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: David Heineger and his leadership team due to fix it.

461
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: The cure is positive action. So I've asked two experts

462
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: in the law and in prison reform to join us

463
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: to propose some concrete things that cour Civic should change

464
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: to better practice what it preaches, says our Hernandez, and

465
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: David Sefabian says a welcome to the show. Could you

466
00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Nand this

467
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: I'm professor at Ohio States at University, where I hold

468
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: the Gregory Williams Charing Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. And

469
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm the author of Migrating to Prison, America's obsession with

470
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: locking up immigrants and the commigration law. Great to have

471
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: you here. Thank you. And David Sefabian, welcome to Calling Bullshit.

472
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Well,

473
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: I'm David s. Fabian. I am the director of the

474
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: Nolan Center for Justice, the American Conservative Union Foundation. I

475
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: am a former White House official or former chief of

476
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: staff for a member of Congress and someone who has

477
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: spent a year in federal prison, and I've seen all

478
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: sides of the criminal justice debate, and my passion is

479
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: fixing the system. So let's get right into some ideas

480
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: for cour Civic. Say sorry, I'm going to ask you

481
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: to go first. In two minutes or less, what's the

482
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: number one thing that cour Civic should do to better

483
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: live up to their mission. I think Corsivic actually has

484
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: a lot of its disposal by providing wrap around services

485
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: that support people as they're going through what are, in

486
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: some circumstances, very high stakes legal proceedings. And this happens

487
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: um in the context of the migrants who are being

488
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: held by Course Civic on behalf of government agencies like

489
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency. Those are individuals who

490
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: are in the midst of legal proceedings before the nation's

491
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: immigration courts, and so Course off it could, for example,

492
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: focus its resources on providing case management services, providing access

493
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: to social workers who would be able to help people

494
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: navigate the stress and the anxiety that goes along with

495
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: legal proceedings in which very meaningful, life changing, life altering

496
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: decisions are to be made, and also ensure that its locations.

497
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: Its facilities are located in places where others can access

498
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: them and by by others. And I'm talking about low years.

499
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: So so don't locate your facilities in the middle of

500
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: uh the Arizona Desert, for example, but instead and in

501
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: or near large metropolitan areas where legal services organizations are present,

502
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: where courts are located. And I also think that journalists

503
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: play an important role here in maintaining oversight of these facilities,

504
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: and so locating facilities in places where you do have

505
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: larger media markets would actually provide a separate and independent

506
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: source of eyes and ears to what's happening inside these facilities.

507
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: That would think ultimately improve the likelihood of success for

508
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: the government agencies with which course of your contracts thank

509
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: you say sorry? Okay, David, You're next in two minutes

510
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 1: or less. What is the number one thing cours Civic

511
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: should be doing better to deliver on what they say

512
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: that they stand for. Well, let me just before we

513
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: get to that, I think I want to challenge those

514
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: are on something, or maybe it's we're going to challenge

515
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: the topic. There are too fundamentally different missions for companies

516
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: like Course Civic and the solutions that says are and

517
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: others have suggested differ based on the mission set. So,

518
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: for example, when you're talking about detention based on criminal charge, right,

519
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: you know private prisons in the kind of way people

520
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: most think about them. You know my understanding and I

521
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: have two or course IT facilities. My understanding is that

522
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: they do provide wrap around services for people who are

523
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: serving a sentence based on criminal conduct. And they do

524
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: that for a number of reasons. One is they're often

525
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: contractually obligated to do so, and two because providing those

526
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 1: types of services healthcare, mental health, and hygiene education, those

527
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: wrap around services reduce recidivism, which goes directly to core

528
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: Civics mission statement. Right. That is a different value proposition

529
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: than immigration detention, where the end state is going to

530
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: be one of two things. Either the folks who were

531
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: being detained our return to their home countries or they're

532
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 1: going to be admitted to the United States under under

533
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: immigration procedures. In either case, the value proposition of providing

534
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: a full suite of wrap around services is different. All right,

535
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: what's the end goal? The end goal and the immigration

536
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: detention is to figure out what we do with people

537
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: A recidivism is not the driver in that circumstances, whereas

538
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: recidivism is the driver for people who are serving a

539
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 1: criminal sentence. So I think that that's an important point.

540
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: I came back from a trip in where we saw

541
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: European prisons, and what was fascinating about the way that

542
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: the Europeans handle their incarceration system is the same people

543
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: that are designated to guard inmates are also the people

544
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: that are providing social services, so their social workers first,

545
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: in their guard second. That is a totally different model

546
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: than what we have primarily in the United States. And

547
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: that is the type of thing where you know, people

548
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: who were detained can build bonds, can find mentors, and

549
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: the people that are paid to guard them and to

550
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: make sure that the facilities are safe are also contributing

551
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: to their potential rehabilitation. So that's where I see areas

552
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: were Corsific and other companies and quite frankly, other entities

553
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: government and non government can improve. I think that's an

554
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: interesting idea as well. So it's it's my turn, and

555
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: then we'll just see where the conversation takes us. You know,

556
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: as I've been reading about this and talking to folks,

557
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: it's become clear to me that you know, there are

558
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: lots of issues, but I think the main issue, the

559
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: issue that causes people to mistrust in many cases, the

560
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: whole idea of a private prison is the business model.

561
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: It is misaligned with the stated mission of the company.

562
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: If you say that you're trying to create safe environments

563
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: that emphasize education and safe return to society, it's pretty

564
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: hard to reconcile that with the profit motive. There are

565
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: just huge incentives to cut corners everywhere in safety, in

566
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: mental and physical health care, nutrition, education, or any other

567
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 1: rehabilitation services that you might want to engage in. So

568
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: one of the biggest complaints that I've heard about and

569
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: read about is lack of access to actual data about

570
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: conditions and about outcomes inside Course Civic facilities. Because these

571
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: are private facilities, they aren't subject to things like the

572
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act, So as an act of altruism,

573
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: almost to build trust, Course Civic needs to get radically transparent,

574
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: more transparent than the law requires, more transparent than shareholders demand.

575
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 1: So my idea is for Course Civic to proactively publish

576
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: all of the data about their outcomes, good, bad, and ugly,

577
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: anonymized appropriately of course, rather than waiting for the government

578
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: to mandate it, or or some other group to complain

579
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: about it. Do it because it's the right thing to do,

580
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: and because to aligned with with the corsific mission. I

581
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: can I challenge and something before we go down at

582
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: rabbit hole, I encourage it. So I think that the

583
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: way you've set that up is not merely unfair, but

584
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: really inaccurate. I don't think that you can square the

585
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: statement that the traditional profit margin issues of a private

586
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: sector entity go to everything from the conditions of incarceration

587
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: or the quality of the food or the quality of

588
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: the healthcare. And let me just give you a couple

589
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: of examples. I was incarcerated. The food that we received

590
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: and I was in a federal federal facility. The food

591
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: that we received expired food out of femal warehouses. There

592
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: is no guarantee whatsoever that because the prisoners are being

593
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: imprisoned by federal employees that the circumstances are any better.

594
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: And and you know what really troubles me is, as

595
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: a former government contracts lare I understand how performance based

596
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: contracting works. And it's a simple concept. It sounds complicated

597
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: and it's simple. The idea is you set forward standards,

598
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: and if the contractor hits those standards, they're rewarded, and

599
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: if contractor doesn't hit those standards, they're penalized. And after

600
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: a certain point, if they continue not hitting those standards,

601
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: the contract is cut. You can't do that with unionized employees.

602
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: You cannot do that with government institutions. It is not

603
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: possible to do that. I hear that, But my idea,

604
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: to be clear, is for Coursivic to proactively publish all

605
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: of the data about outcomes, which I don't think they

606
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: do unless I've got that wrong. There there's been a

607
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: lot of coverage of it being very hard to get

608
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: information out of Coursivic. In two thousand and five, for instance,

609
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: there was a bill called the Private Prison Information Act,

610
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: which attempted to force any private entity contracting with the

611
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: government to agree to release information about its operations under

612
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: the same requirements as the Freedom of Information Act, and

613
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: course Civic actively lobbied against it, and it was defeated.

614
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: And so it's actions like that that leave you with

615
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: the strong impression that they have something to hide, even

616
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: if they don't. I totally agree with you that that's

617
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: a self inflicted wound that creates a trust gap. I

618
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: am all for transparency. It's pretty hard to advocate on

619
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: criminal justice matters, and I don't advocate on private prison

620
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: issues whatsoever, but it's hard to advocate criminal justice matters

621
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: when you don't have data to rely on. But I

622
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: will point out one thing, and since you know, kind

623
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: of the operating theme underneath all of this is private

624
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: prisons are worse than public prisons. That there's not a

625
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: whole heck of a lot of disclosure coming out of

626
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Either. That's true, but you

627
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: can get it at it ostensibly through the Freedom of

628
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: Information Act. And and the problem there is fragmentation right

629
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: like it's it's there is no central database. I actually

630
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: think we have a lot of information about what course

631
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: if it does specifically explicitly, I should say, because of

632
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 1: the fact that it is a publicly traded corporation. As

633
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: a result, it files annual reports with the Securities and

634
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: Exchange Commission, It files quarterly reports with the SEC anytime

635
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: it's looking to to issue a new round of bonds,

636
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 1: it issues statements it's trying to lure investors. It holds

637
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: a conference cause that I've tuned into, and so as

638
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: a result, I actually think we have a lot of

639
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: information about coursifics operations, and FOYA is a meaningful transparency law,

640
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: but it's not the only transparency law in the United States.

641
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: The States also have transparency laws, and so when it

642
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: comes to coursifics operations, on behalf of states government agencies,

643
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: sometimes state transparency laws government secrecy laws actually allow access

644
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: to more information than does the Freedom of Information Act

645
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: at the federal level. But I'd say that that of

646
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: the many shortcomings with coursivics operations, it's not a lack

647
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: of nation about what is happening in its decision making processes.

648
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: And I would just jump on and actually take it

649
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 1: one step further, and that is all across the criminal

650
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: justice system, there is a lack of independent oversight regardless

651
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: of whether the operator of the facility is a private

652
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: sector entity or a public sector entity. There just is

653
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: an independent oversight. Yeah, that's a great point and much needed.

654
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: I agree, David. Can I follow up on your idea

655
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: around rethinking the role of guards. It seems very logical

656
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: to me that one possible advantage of privatizing government functions

657
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: like prisons is that private companies tend to be better

658
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: at innovation. Like if you say your mission is better

659
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: outcomes and a safer society, that's a great mission, and

660
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: it's also an invitation for innovation. But I don't see

661
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: much of it at core Civic. So a do I

662
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: have that right and and be what other kinds of innovations?

663
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: My cour civic explorer, I would say that it is

664
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: difficult to drive innovation when the broader terms of custody

665
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: are governed not by the entity managing the people, but

666
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: are are governed by sets of rules and laws that

667
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: are imposed by Congress and by the Bureau of Prisons

668
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: or by the state direct corrections departments. For example. You know,

669
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: we know that people age out of crime, right We

670
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: know for a fact that the older you get, the

671
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: less likely that the person is going to reoffend. And

672
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: so one of the ways to leverage that, take advantage

673
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: of it, to reduce costs and reduce population is to

674
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: move people as they age beyond the walls, you know,

675
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: still holding them accountable, still putting restrictions on them, but

676
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: moving them outside of a traditional prison environment, whether it's

677
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: cour civic or anybody else. You cannot do that under

678
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: current law. They are charged with holding people until the

679
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: court says that they're no longer to be held, and

680
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: so those types of innovations are really stifled by what

681
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: I would argue is a flexible and desperately in need

682
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: of updating criminal justice system. I would add to that

683
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: that they're oftentimes there has to be a reason to innovate,

684
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: and so long as they're meeting the expectations of their

685
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: governmental partners, their governmental customers, and reaping the financial rewards

686
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: of that, then there is no reason to innovia. So

687
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: I actually think that the federal and state governments that

688
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: contract with Course Civic are actually very key actors in

689
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: the likelihood of Course Civic innovating. By demanding innovations, they

690
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: hold the keys to the government treasury, and as a result,

691
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: if they want to see Course Civic move in a

692
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: particular direction, then they have the power to do that. Right.

693
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: What if government's mandated performance based contracts with goals like

694
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 1: recidivism reduction, for instance, to truly incentivize innovation. Why isn't

695
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: that going on? Well, you're starting to see that. You're

696
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: starting to see that at some of the state levels.

697
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: I know they've implemented performance based contracting in Pennsylvania, for example,

698
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: with some of their private sector companies. You know, it

699
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: takes a little bit of time to put together meaningful

700
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: performance metrics to judge a company by how they're doing things.

701
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: You have all kinds of questions across the private prison

702
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: spectrum in terms of what is to be measured, how

703
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: it is to be measured, what are the stretch goals

704
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: versus regular goals versus penalty levels. It's not easy to

705
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: do performance based contracting, and it really requires somebody with

706
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: knowledge in the contracting space and somebody knowledge in the

707
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: criminal justice space. Now, I will tell you this, one

708
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: of the things that I think everybody would love to

709
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: see is performance space contracting based on recidivism numbers. And

710
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: the biggest challenge there is something very simple. Everybody defines

711
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: recidivism in a different way. So we need to be

712
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: able to compare apples to apples when it comes to corsifics,

713
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: largest contracts in of the company's revenue came from the

714
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: Immigration and Customs and forth mean agency. So we just

715
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: shy thirty of the company's entire revenue in each of

716
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: those years coming from a single government agency. So let

717
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: me talk a little bit about that single government agency

718
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: ICE and the standards that exist. So ICE actually has,

719
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: going back more than a decade now, issued what it

720
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: calls performance based National Detention Standards. This is a series

721
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: of rather long and detailed expectations that it imposes on

722
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: all of the government contractors, including Course Civic. And yet

723
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: the agency has never been willing to make these binding.

724
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: That is, it has never actually required these companies, including

725
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: cours Civic, to meet those detention standards and certainly not

726
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: imposing consequences for failing to meet those detention standards. Is

727
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: the agency is just unwilling to a contract. That's been

728
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: true under President Obama, that's been true under President Trump,

729
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: and you know, we'll see how things shake out under

730
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: President Biden. But I'm not holding my breath because the

731
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: politics have not changed sufficiently to turn the agency into

732
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: one that is willing to say two companies like Corcivic,

733
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: you actually have to meet these attention standards, and if

734
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: you don't, there are the severest consequences are coming for you,

735
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: and by that we mean we're cutting you off. Shocker

736
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: that a federal agency can't figure out how to do

737
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 1: good performance based contracting. I think though, that well two things.

738
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: One is, it's difficult to criticize a company for not

739
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: going beyond the terms of the contract if that's not

740
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 1: the measure by which the agency intends to hold them accountable. Right.

741
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: But I think the second point is, again, immigration is

742
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: a different set of metrics and performance for private prison companies.

743
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: The goal of incarceration for people who have been convicted

744
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: of the crime, one of the goals is rehabilitation. That's

745
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: arguably the most important after segregation and maintaining public safety.

746
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: That is a different matter than the goal of detention.

747
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: For immigration, which is purely a segregation matter. Is taking

748
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: people who have been identify fight as being here illegally

749
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: and holding them until they can determine what they do

750
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: with them. And re entry is is a different animal

751
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: altogether when you're talking about immigration detention versus criminal justice detention. Yeah,

752
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 1: I think when when we're talking about it, almost a

753
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: third right cent of revenue coming from the Immigration Customs

754
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: Enforcement Agency. Even if I'd say the position that David's

755
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: articulating that this is a different form of incarceration, it's

756
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: a it's a rather significant form of incarceration for for

757
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: this particular company. For Cours civic, and so I would

758
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: hope that they would be thinking about the complexities um

759
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,919
Speaker 1: and the distinctions between this and other forms. I think

760
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: we all in the criminal justice community kind of get

761
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: caught up in the vernacular all the terms, you know,

762
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: justice impacted or ex offender or re entry. Here's what

763
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 1: we're really talking about. At the end of the day,

764
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: when that person walks out of prison, are they likely

765
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: to reoffend and revictimize people in their community. That is

766
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: a totally different matter than immigration, where the outcome at

767
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: the end of the incarceration is likely deportation. Yeah, I

768
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: would take issue with with that point, but I'm not

769
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: sure that it's actually relevant to what coursifc does, and

770
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: of Coursivic does what it's asked to do by the

771
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: government agencies that it contracts for, and so I would

772
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: agree with your earlier point, David, that it's a little

773
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: hard to criticize the company for not doing what it's

774
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: not being asked to do. I think here the criticism

775
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: is rightfully placed with those government agencies and with the

776
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: elect officials who ultimately make the policies, the laws and

777
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: the policies that direct the operations of those government agencies,

778
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: And so I'd prefer to focus on my energy on

779
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: thinking about to what extent is Congress as the bureau prisons, immigration, cousins,

780
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: Enforcement Agency, et cetera. You know what extent are they

781
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: poorly incentivizing Courcivic to live up to its desires to aspirations,

782
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: at least as articulated earlier by Thai referencing it's it's

783
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: it's missions. I want to build on the direction that

784
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: this this conversation has has taken in this movie of us,

785
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: maybe slightly away from course Civic, But I'll start with

786
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: just a question. Do we think that private prisons and

787
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: the privatization of the prison system is a result of,

788
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: or related to the US culture of of mass incarceration.

789
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: The reason I bring this up is because back in

790
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one when Dwight Eisenhower, when he was leaving office,

791
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: his final warning to the American people was about the

792
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: rising power of what he called the military industrial complex.

793
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: And today we see the U S engaged in what

794
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,240
Speaker 1: have become called forever Wars. Do either of you worry

795
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: that we're seeing the rise of the prison industrial complex.

796
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: Government and the private sector wrapped together around the most

797
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: vulnerable members of society essentially feeding off their misery. I

798
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: think that that might have been a plausible narrative going

799
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: back into the early two thousand's, particularly the aspect related

800
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: to the private sector company. There is I won't use

801
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: the term collusion, but there's certainly alignment between incarceration and

802
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: economic development. It's perceived by local officials. Have you ever

803
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: tried to close a federal prison or even a state prison.

804
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: You get protesters all over the place because it's loss

805
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: of jobs. So it's not a prison industrial complex per se,

806
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: but certainly some of the actors in the criminal justice

807
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: system have a bias towards maintaining prisons that have to

808
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: be filled. And most of those actors are people who

809
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: are feeding at the trough, whether they are corrections officers,

810
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: prison administrators, vendors selling food to the commissaries, all the

811
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: way up and down the chain to prosecutors and law enforcement.

812
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: I would echo that m concerning I actually say at

813
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: the state level, this is actually a much more pressing

814
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: issue because there you're dealing would local elected officials, often

815
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: state legislators and county commissioners, sheriffs, who really quite clearly

816
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 1: is see prisons as economic development opportunity these or economic

817
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: development engines, and it's not at all abstract because those

818
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:05,919
Speaker 1: are the people who live in those communities. And often

819
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: these are very rural communities, they're isolated communities. These are

820
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,959
Speaker 1: places where well paying jobs, decent paying jobs, are hard

821
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: to come by. And so the thoughts that your two

822
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,439
Speaker 1: hundred person private prison facility is about to close down

823
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: means that two hundred of your constituents are about to

824
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: go out of a job. And that's a concern for

825
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: any elected official who's thinking about re election. It's also

826
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: just a concern for a neighbor right, who's thinking about

827
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: livelihoods of the people who live down the street from them, right,

828
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: who make that community. Whatever, whatever the community is, they

829
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: are that community. Okay, this has been a great conversation, um,

830
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: but there are a couple of things that I need

831
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 1: to do to wrap us up. I want to each

832
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 1: of you to give Course Civic a B S score,

833
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: So on a scale of zero to one hundred being

834
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: the worst total b S and zero roal being the

835
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: best zero bs. What would you give Course Civic based

836
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: on how they are are delivering on their mission? Say sorry,

837
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: why don't you go first, Yeah, I think i'd say

838
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: they're they're sevent bs. We'll take it. And David, you know,

839
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody in this space is perfect. I

840
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,919
Speaker 1: think there's always room for improvement. But I don't think

841
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: the core Civic is the company that has been demonized,

842
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: or I don't think the company reflects some of the

843
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: allegations out there. I'd give him a fifteen. That's great.

844
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here today, both of you.

845
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: This was this was a lot of fun. I really

846
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the times. So, folks, it's time to

847
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: give Course Civic our official BS score. As you've heard today,

848
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: this one is complicated, so actually a little hard to

849
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 1: make this call because our experts were so divided. Sharon

850
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: gave them a hundred, says are seventy and David gave

851
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 1: them fifteen. Because their business model doesn't align with their purpose,

852
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 1: and because they lack transparency, I've decided to give Course

853
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: Civic a sixty eight. To weigh in with your own

854
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: score or to leave us a message, visit our website

855
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 1: Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. We'll track Course Civic's behavior

856
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: over time to see if they can bring that score

857
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: down you'll also be able to see where they rank

858
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: on BS compared to the other companies we feature on

859
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: this show. And if you're running a purpose led business

860
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: or you're thinking of beginning the journey of transformation to

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00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: become one, here are three things you should take away

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Speaker 1: from this episode. One, your business model and your purpose

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00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: need to align. That's one of the first principles of

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00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: being purpose led. It's why being purpose led is different

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Speaker 1: than engaging in corporate social responsibility. That old fashioned model

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00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: held that companies could make their money anyway they wanted

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00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: and then spend some of their profits on good causes

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00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: to solve their souls. In course civics case, they make

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00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,439
Speaker 1: money on the number of prisoners in their facilities, not

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Speaker 1: on successfully rehabilitating them and reintroducing them to society. That's

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Speaker 1: a problem. Two. Action is always the cure. Today we

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Speaker 1: discussed actions for cour civic like actively engaging with the

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00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: government to create contracts that give them financial incentives to

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00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: achieve their purpose of successfully reintroducing people to society and

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Speaker 1: reducing recidivism, and ideas like hiring social workers as prison guards,

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00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: or ideas like becoming proactively transparent with their data and

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00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: holding themselves accountable for hitting the key metrics outlined in

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Speaker 1: their purpose, the actions for your company will undoubtedly be different.

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00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: The point is doing is believing and three hope is

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00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: not a strategy, and neither is hiding. Unlike many of

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Speaker 1: the organizations we've covered this season, cour Civic isn't a

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Speaker 1: household name, but that definitely does not mean that they

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Speaker 1: won't eventually be held accountable. Reform in this industry is inevitable.

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Speaker 1: So no matter what industry you're in, if you're hoping

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00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: to exist behind the scenes and under the radar and

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00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: get away with being accountable only to your shareholders and

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00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: not to your broader stakeholders, it's time for a new strategy.

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Speaker 1: And David Heineger, CEO of Course Civic, if you ever

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Speaker 1: want to come on this show to talk about any

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00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: of of topics and ideas we've discussed today, you have

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00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: an open invitation. I'd like to thank everyone who joined

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Speaker 1: us today, Sharon Brett, David Sefabian, and say Sar Hernandez.

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Speaker 1: You can find all of them on social media. We

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00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: have all of their handles on our website, Calling Bullshit

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00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: podcast dot com, and check out Saysar's books migrating to prison,

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00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: America's obsession with locking up immigrants, and the krimmigration law.

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00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: If you have ideas for companies or organizations we should

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00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: consider for future episodes, you can submit them on the

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Speaker 1: site too, And if we unlock something important for you today,

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00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: Subscribe to the Calling Bullshit podcast on the I Heart

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00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: And thanks to our production team, Hannah Beal, Amanda Ginsburg,

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01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: Andy Kim d s Moss, Hailey Pascalites, MICHAELA. Reid, Parker Silzer,

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Speaker 1: Basil Soaper and me John Zulu. Calling Bullshit was created

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01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: by co Collective and is hosted by Me Time onto you.

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01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening before you go, we'd love to hear

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Speaker 1: what you think about the show. Maybe you were inspired

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01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 1: to take action, maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating.

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01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: Either way, we want to hear about it. Leave us

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01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: a message at two one two five oh five zero five,

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01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: or send a voice memo to CBS podcast at co

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01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: collective dot com. You might even be featured on an

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Speaker 1: upcoming episode.