WEBVTT - Boots on the Ground 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.119 One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.360 will never be the same again. And when I heard that, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:10.559 it broke my heart. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:15.320 It's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps, 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.200 in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:18.560 by that. 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.400 I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.360 walk in, and then we locked eyes. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.640 This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KATI Studios 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:40.240 and iHeartRadio, Season two episode ten, Boots on the Ground. 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.519 Courtney Armstrong, our producer at Katie's Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:51.680 and Gabe Castillo. Stephanie and I spoke with veteran journalist 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.960 Tanya Rashid, who traveled to Moscow and stayed there on 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.240 and off of the course of eight months. Tanya has 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.080 worked for outlets including National g Geographic Vice, and PBS 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.679 News Hour. We asked Tanya what drew her to this 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:06.440 type of work. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.800 I think part of the reason why I became a 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.440 journalist has a lot to do with my exposure to 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.160 extreme worlds. I was born in Saudi Arabia and then 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.000 we moved to Salt Lake City, so it's like one 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.000 isolated place. Saudi Arabia to Utah, which is like totally 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.280 polar opposites. So I feel like that has a lot 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:34.240 to do with my curiosity for different worlds. For me, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.760 it's been a lot about uncovering difficult stories, hard to 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:43.440 access stories, and for the past thirteen years, somehow organically 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:49.240 my niche has become covering traumatized communities. I've covered famine, genocide, 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.680 gender based violence across the world, and tragedy in our 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:54.360 own backyard. 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.440 Tragedy in our own backyard. I feel like that brings 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.360 us to know the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.560 When I got there, it was three months after, and 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:14.760 the community itself was incredibly just very afraid and not 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:21.079 wanting to associate with any media whatsoever because after the murders, 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.000 as you both very well know, there was a lot 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.320 of press and internet saluts just taking over the sleepy 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.240 town part of me. When I arrived there, I felt 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.639 like I was in the seventies, like in the seventies film, 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.520 because everyone's just very hippy tastic there. Prior to arriving, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.240 I was afraid because Idaho, I'm thinking, you know, being 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.880 a brown Muslim woman arriving in this community, like how 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.720 will they receive me. But you know, Moscow residents are 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:56.720 some of the kindest, most wonderful people that I've encountered, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.320 and that was surprising to me. But yeah, and when 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.280 I arrived, I could feel the tension on the ground. 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.400 And so that's like my first observation when I got 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.840 to the ground that I really needed to take my 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.519 time and get to know the people in a very 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.160 very sensitive and mindful way. 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.480 When you did first touchdown in Moscow, can you just 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.799 describe what was it like, you know, the energy of 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:24.080 the community. Did that change or evolve as days went on. 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:29.680 Well, I landed and Spokeane and I drove two hours 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.560 in the night, and as I drove, I noticed the 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.320 rolling hills the Poloue, and since I was driving at night, 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.760 it was just kind of eerie. And I had never 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.800 been to Moscow before, so in my mind, I'm thinking 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:47.440 what am I doing? And I wonder did the suspected 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.440 killer drive down these roads. It's just like all these 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.440 thoughts went through my mind. So that night I had 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:58.120 dinner at the Mad Greek where Maddi Mogan and Xana 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:02.440 Kernodle had worked, and having dinner there was also a 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:08.040 very unsettling and eerie experience. Shortly after that, I went 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.000 to the Corner Club and I could just feel there 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.720 was this tension you can cut through with a knife. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.479 So I arrived at the Corner Club, I had a 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.599 drink and then I looked down at the table and 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:24.760 I see a picture of Mattie, Xana and Ethan and 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.000 Kaylee on under the glass table, that one famous photo 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.400 that's all over the news, And I'm just like is 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.799 It's something about reading it and another kind of feeling 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.840 when you're just in the location and looking at their 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.360 picture real time. If I just thought I'm here, I'm reporting. 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.080 I just want to go to all the places and 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.280 see what it's like. So that was my first night. 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.479 But I will say I was at the murder site 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:55.320 quite a few times, and there are ring cameras. Neighbors 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.960 have cameras, and I do wonder if the police have 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.359 taken them men and what they might discover. 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.160 You bring up neighbors. I've seen certain people give interviews 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:08.200 on the news or etc. 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.640 Because look, it was a house amongst many From what 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.239 we've been told, it's sort of a dead end street. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.839 You would be super intentional if you were going to 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:21.520 that particular house, right, it's not on a major road 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:23.000 that goes to someplace else. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.640 Yeah, that's accurate. I mean it took me a few 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.719 moments to recognize it because the house was boarded up. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.280 The house is hard to spot, But once you're there, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:37.920 the neighbors and people immediately see you and they're not 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.080 happy for you to be there, and rightfully so. And 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.120 I wonder if the demolishment of the home had a 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.960 lot to do with that. This constant reminder. 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.640 Whether you're reading about it or hearing about it on 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.560 a podcast or seeing it on the news, it's very 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.520 different than when you're actually boots on the ground, and 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.960 it's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps, 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.000 in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:06.360 by that. 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.680 Vicarious trauma is real. One of the community members told me, 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.080 you know, Moscow will never be the same again, and 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:18.200 when I heard that, it broke my heart, because it's true. 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:22.640 This case has totally changed the energy of this town 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.880 and how people even engage with one another. 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.560 Tanya, I'm very interested to get into the fact of 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.360 what it was like, because you were there and attended 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.720 hearings with the accused with people we have now only 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:43.080 seen on TV or instill pictures. And I'm reminded of 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:49.160 when we were covering the piked In massacre and we 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.760 went to several of the childs and I was there 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:57.120 when convicted murderer Jake Wagner was there, and it was 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:01.120 so striking to me just the feel in this courtroom. 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.039 And there was nobody on the Wagner side. There was 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.200 nobody on the ACU side to support them, not one 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.520 person of support, not a family member, a friend, a reverend, 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:17.800 whereas on the victim side, the victim's family were there 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:22.840 absolutely steadfast and just holding court in the courtroom on 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.200 their side. So it was a really interesting juxtaposition. What 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.520 was the feeling like? Can you describe what the hearings 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:29.920 were like? 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.880 The first hearing I went to was the arraignment, and 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.760 while I stood outside of the courthouse, I encountered the 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.360 couple that came in from another country that were on 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:48.280 this crime tourism thing and that was their form of 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.040 taking a vacation coming to this arraignment. And you know, 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.480 Moscow is a really small town. So the organization of 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.160 letting reporters, community members all into the courthouse was a 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.280 bit of a I don't want to say a mess, 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.880 but they have never dealt with anything like this before. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:10.240 This is an overwhelming amount of international national news reporters, 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.720 salutes and just everyone and residents just wanting to see. 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.040 And I remember I had to put my name on 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:21.680 the list. And then I went in and Coburger arrived 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.920 in an orange jumpsuit, and and Taylor, a couple of 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:31.800 police officers, the judge obviously, and then I look and 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.760 I see, if I'm not mistaken, I think and solve 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.240 this family were at the arraignment, and Shannon Gray, their attorney. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.360 Wait, the arraignment is a big deal too. 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.600 Is that the first time that mister Gonzalvez would have 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.600 seen the accused, Brian Coburger in the courtroom face to face. 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:51.240 I would think so. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:52.600 I think so too. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.520 Then after the charges were read, Brian Coberger's attorney declined 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:02.040 to inter plea and elected to stand silent. That prompted 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.760 the judge to enter and not guilty plea. This is 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.280 the interesting thing that I've been reporting on and I 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.400 haven't talked about, and I'm talking about with you, is 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:13.800 I walk out. I'm sitting in the hallway and there's 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:15.520 a been to be another hearing. I forget what the 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.840 hearing was, and then I see the Consolves family just 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.040 walk right past me through the hallway, just running, and 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.600 they're running down the street and I look outside. I 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.200 run out too, and I see all these cameras just 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:35.160 running behind them after them. And I was really unsettling 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:40.360 to watch this grieving family coming here, you know, to 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:46.520 this hearing, facing this situation, and then this overwhelming presence 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.959 of intrusion, essentially. 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.360 But I see all sides of that. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.080 On the one hand, you have to go and you 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.839 have to report on it, and it should make us 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.440 mad as hell that these families have been put through it, right, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.360 we want to again support and rally around them. And 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.760 that's the fine line. So now there you are. Obviously 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.880 the emotion in the courtroom has to be major. What 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:12.800 was it like seeing him for the first time. 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.959 I can say seeing him in an orange jumpsuit and 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.000 his face in real time made it very real. I 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.360 don't know how to explain that. I'm sure you both relate. 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.480 Everything just felt almost too real. And yeah, it was 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.000 a tense moment because the families were their community leaders. 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:35.440 Journalists just everybody just there focused on this moment, and 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.600 it went by pretty fast, Honestly. The other hearing I 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:43.240 went to, which was on June twenty seventh, was interesting 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:47.000 because it was the first time I had seen Coburger 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:51.080 wearing a suit. I'm sitting towards the back, and I 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.960 see Coburger walk in, suited and booted, hair jelled, just 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.520 looking very put together. Quite the contrast from what I 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.040 when I had I've seen him last in an orange jumpsuit. 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.880 I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.720 walk in and then we locked eyes. It felt like 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:13.120 chills went down my spine. I felt gutted in my stomach. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:18.080 Those few seconds felt like a whole five minutes, felt 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.560 much longer than the gaze. And when I looked in 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:28.160 his eyes, there was this very blank, blank stare, almost 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.800 like gray, but that's how I'd describe it. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.000 Was Brian Coberger's parents or his siblings, or any family 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:41.360 members present at any of the hearings that you can recall, No, I. 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.079 Didn't see anyone from his family. 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:44.440 Wow. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:45.720 It's a tough one. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:46.080 Right. 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.800 On the one hand, you respect the privacy they're under 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.200 a gag order going to the courtroom is going to 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.880 create perhaps more of a frenzy and open the door 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.360 to more questions. On the other side of that, you 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.360 would want to show support because by showing up, it 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.320 is saying loud and clear, we do not believe these charges. 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:09.079 Our son or our family member is innocent. And it's 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.320 a confusing thing. You know. I don't have a personal 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.080 opinion on it. It's a really big deal to be 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.839 in a situation where and Courtney can speak to this 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.679 as well. And I've been in court rooms before with 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.720 convicted killers. In your case, there has been no conviction. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.880 He claims his innocence, and I don't think that can 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.960 be understated. Specifically, Courtney, when she went to Jake Wagner, 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.880 the accused Pie County murderer's trial, we had been tag 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.199 teaming and court not to put words in your mouth, 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.560 but you were visibly upset because you had, you know, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:47.359 seemingly locked eyes with Jake Wagner, and I was like, no, wait. 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.920 What you locked eyes? He did it? He said he 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:51.640 did it, and we know he's. 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.840 He's capable of murdering eight people, and we were shook. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.280 If you want to share a little bit, yeah, just 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:05.400 his affect. This is a man who he helped coordinate 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:10.640 and helped fuel his family members to murder eight other people, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.480 including the mother of his child, including the grandmother of 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.080 his child. And as he is telling the details of this, 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.960 you know, meticulously and slowly, as you do during examination 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:28.760 and cross examination, the callousness. It wasn't even like describing 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.560 a holiday event. It was more like describing going to 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:37.200 the grocery store. Just the lack of feeling the and 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.480 a lot was made of this in the press, and 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:44.480 it really was the truth. He's smirking, He was smirking 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.920 telling this, and it was just it was deeply unsettling. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.920 She came back, and then I went to George Wagner's 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.760 trial and Angela, the mother who also at that point 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.480 had taken a plead deal and confessed to plotting the 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.720 murders of eight people she knew and knew very well, 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:06.520 and was going to now testify against her eldest son, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.960 guaranteeing him life in prison. I had to almost look down. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.200 I was petrified to lock eyes with her. Based on 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.240 Courtney's experience, did you notice if he and I'm speaking 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.040 of the accused now, Brian Coberger, did he have any 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.080 reaction that you noticed or worth noting at any of 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.440 the hearings that you were at that maybe we just didn't. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:30.960 We haven't seen ourselves. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.560 He walked in with his suit and tie, and Taylor 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.720 was really well put together herself. She had her hair 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.480 was blow dried and curled, and she looked both of 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.200 them looked very put together, unlike the previous hearing where 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:49.080 he was in an orange jumpsuit. And during the proceedings, 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.960 she continued to say that her client was not a 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.680 phishing expedition and she wanted to see what evidence the 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.320 prosecution had against her client. So there was a lot 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.840 of back and forth about that during that particular hearing, 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.280 and she said, quote unquote, we've asked for several things 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.800 that we still need so and those include cell phone 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.440 investigations and what led the police to seek out a 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.080 Hundai like the one driven by Coburger. There was a 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:27.600 sense of confidence with Ann Taylor that permeated the room, 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.720 And I remember going to the bar afterwards and I 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:35.440 would just listen in on people just talking and they'd say, like, 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:36.120 how could. 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:36.600 She do this? 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.200 If he if he like steps foot out of that joke, 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.040 like he gets shot in the head. I'm surprised he 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.160 hasn't been shot by now. Like one of the residents said, 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:52.440 like it was wild. Also like this very rural aspect 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.960 to I do her residence or Moscow residence. A lot 0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:00.000 of these men that I've met were doing physical life 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.920 jobs that were very physically demanding, and coming to the 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:09.520 bar was just a space to let loose. And the 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:14.960 bar is the spot for all the community folk coming together. 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:19.760 They're trivia games, all friends meeting up, college kids. It's 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.160 just the area where everyone flocked to. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.120 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:40.800 a moment. During your visits, did you encounter anyone who 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.400 knew the victims or were in their circle and sort 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:48.800 of could speak to the before when everything was quote normal. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.040 I went to the University of Idaho and contacted their 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.359 journalism department and it ended up being this really fascinating 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:05.840 organic experience where I engaged with the student newspaper, the Argonauts, 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.399 these student journalists who were the first ones on the 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:14.000 ground when the murders took place, and I can't begin 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.399 to tell you how hard it hit them psychologically, and 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.639 just listening to their stories and how they covered this 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:27.440 day by day, no sleep, not eating, just there can't 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.640 begin to imagine what it's like to be a student 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.880 journalist living through and reporting on such a tragedy, such 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:39.520 a travesty. And one of the students was childhood friends 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.479 with Xanna Kernodle. But for him, what was striking to 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:48.000 me about him was how personal this is while also 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.520 wanting to be a good journalist and tell the story 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.879 the right way. So I would say that would be 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.360 my most striking example of getting close to the story 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.119 and people connected to it. I don't want to paint 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.719 Moscow as a time and that's just yeah, it's forever 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:06.040 change and this horrible tragedy, these tragic murders took place. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.600 But at the same time, I also see the resilience 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.240 of the community. It's a very strong community, and with 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.679 the students too, you know, they want to go on 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.879 with their lives and so the campus. While there was 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.560 this somber energy, I would say there was also this 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.520 it's a bubbly college town. It's just very nice, very 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:26.399 it's wonderful. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:31.320 Actually, was there a sense while you were there during 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.080 the time of these hearings, did it feel like in 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.639 the town that wait, maybe this isn't the guy, and like, 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.960 we're still unsafe. Did it seem as though we look 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.320 there could still be a killer at large? 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:44.440 Did you feel scared or did it feel like it 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:45.280 settled a little bit? 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.320 A lot of the residents that I spoke to, they 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.280 said that they think it's co worker, and there was 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.680 a sense of ease among many of them, the ones 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.879 I had spoken to, he is not the word, but 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.199 a sense of Okay, he's in jail. He's in the 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.080 basement of the which, mind you, my Airbnb that I 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.600 slept in at night faced his jail cell, which was 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.280 an interesting way to sleep. So when I opened my 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:14.080 window from my bedroom, I would see where he was 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.040 being held. So in terms of being afraid, I just wondered, Oh, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.760 this is a small town and he's being held in 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:26.359 this tiny little facility that seems really guarded up and protected. 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.080 But still there's like a little bit of there's an 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.640 anxiety that rolls in when you're in such close proximity 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:34.840 to this alleged killer. 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.639 What did it look like from your Airbnb window. 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.280 From all ends right the Airbnb window? And then I'd 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.439 go do my groceries and I'd have to walk up 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.479 the hill and pass by where he's being held. So 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.560 it was a constant reality for me. Even the airbnb 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.040 host that I was renting from, she said that she 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.440 was really concerned about the property value and if people 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.720 would even want to stay there. And so there's like 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.480 this sense of like you can sense that change as well, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.000 this unsettled feeling of the people who live near the courthouse. 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.000 But yeah, walking by, there's I notice a gate, like 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.520 a fenced up gate. I think that's the open air area. 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.000 That's what one of the community residents told me, that 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.560 the prisoners are brought out to walk outside and get sunshine. 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.720 So he was being held in that area. 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.000 Having been there, what are people getting wrong? What do 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.320 people need to know about the actualities. 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:36.359 I think there's you know, for the community, for friends 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.959 of the victims, for those people. There's a lack of 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:44.240 empathy in the reporting by the journalists or documentarians covering 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.440 this case, which really puts off the residents to even 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.720 want to talk to anyone. And so the biggest takeaway 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:56.000 for me was these victims, like who were they before 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.920 all this? Like what are the stories? And we don't 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.320 hear enough of that honoring their lives honoring their light 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.439 what they brought to the world, I think would do 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.760 a great justice to the story, and I don't think 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:10.040 has been done enough. 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:15.000 I don't know if you had heard anything about Doug 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:21.000 Wilson or the christ Church. Now if you care to comment, 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.720 if you have a thought, Okay, what do you know? 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.320 There's a podcast out called Extremely American. 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:29.800 It's really good. 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.080 It's about christ Church and it goes into the details 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:36.480 about Doug Wilson and all that. So in my reporting, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:38.880 not only did I go to the bars and Mad 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.359 Gregg to all the spots, I also I went to 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:49.440 a christ Church service. And Yeah, it's very interesting because 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:54.639 it really kind of summarizes Moscow because there's this tension 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:59.800 between the demographic that I really connected with, like these 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.520 Pep people who are just completely liberal. It's like the 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:08.800 blue dot of Idaho, and then this contrasting force, though small, 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.000 I mean, like they're a minority, but still have impact 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.040 because they bought I think twenty percent of the real 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.800 estate in Moscow. Yeah, I went to their service and 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:25.359 it was a very uncomfortable experience. I got very patriarchal 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:32.760 man cultish vibes. I'm not in a position to comment 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.600 further because I don't know enough about them. But what 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.040 I do know is the Moscow residents that I did 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:43.200 speak to and engage with or are just disgusted by 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:47.440 christ Church and their beliefs and what I mean. Yeah, 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.399 and Doug Wilson. There's a cafe that all everyone goes to. 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:55.080 It's called One World Cafe. And I went there all 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.760 the time. The students were there, all the time, professors 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.320 would go there. It's just like, when you go into 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:06.679 that establishment, you know you are in your safe and 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.320 then they're like christ Church establishments that are there too. 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:13.000 And when I walk into those spaces, I'm like, well, 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.840 this does not That's such a good question, Courtney, because 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:22.520 that's Moscow. It's these two extreme worlds somehow coexisting together 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.880 through it. On top of the tragic murders that took 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:26.360 lays there. 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:31.239 Just the dichotomy, it seems fascinating. And you know, I 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:35.320 had brought it up only because I'm really curious of 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:39.919 the potential depending upon if the church goers end up 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:42.120 on the jury what that will mean. 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.840 I do wonder what that means for the future of 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.520 this case and what role they will play. For sure, 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:52.560 that is, if the case is going to take place 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:55.840 in Latoky. If it is even we don't know yet. 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:01.800 Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:12.600 a moment. After this conversation, Stephanie and I got further 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:16.959 interested in Doug Wilson's Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. We 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.080 wanted to look into it as a way to understand 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:21.560 the backdrop of a portion of this community. 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.800 It's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that there is on 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:32.399 the one side this college town where there are students 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:34.959 and it's very free thinking in liberal and then on 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:37.800 the flip of that, there's a really big portion of 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:42.000 the town that attends this very specific church and their 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.119 teachings are in fact very controversial. So we decided to 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:47.760 do a deeper dive. So the name of the church 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:50.359 is Christ Church in Moscow, and it's run by a 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:54.760