Speaker 1: One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow
Speaker 1: will never be the same again. And when I heard that,
Speaker 1: it broke my heart.
Speaker 2: It's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps,
Speaker 2: in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted
Speaker 2: by that.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him
Speaker 1: walk in, and then we locked eyes.
Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KATI Studios
Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season two episode ten, Boots on the Ground.
Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong, our producer at Katie's Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker
Speaker 3: and Gabe Castillo. Stephanie and I spoke with veteran journalist
Speaker 3: Tanya Rashid, who traveled to Moscow and stayed there on
Speaker 3: and off of the course of eight months. Tanya has
Speaker 3: worked for outlets including National g Geographic Vice, and PBS
Speaker 3: News Hour. We asked Tanya what drew her to this
Speaker 3: type of work.
Speaker 1: I think part of the reason why I became a
Speaker 1: journalist has a lot to do with my exposure to
Speaker 1: extreme worlds. I was born in Saudi Arabia and then
Speaker 1: we moved to Salt Lake City, so it's like one
Speaker 1: isolated place. Saudi Arabia to Utah, which is like totally
Speaker 1: polar opposites. So I feel like that has a lot
Speaker 1: to do with my curiosity for different worlds. For me,
Speaker 1: it's been a lot about uncovering difficult stories, hard to
Speaker 1: access stories, and for the past thirteen years, somehow organically
Speaker 1: my niche has become covering traumatized communities. I've covered famine, genocide,
Speaker 1: gender based violence across the world, and tragedy in our
Speaker 1: own backyard.
Speaker 3: Tragedy in our own backyard. I feel like that brings
Speaker 3: us to know the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho.
Speaker 1: When I got there, it was three months after, and
Speaker 1: the community itself was incredibly just very afraid and not
Speaker 1: wanting to associate with any media whatsoever because after the murders,
Speaker 1: as you both very well know, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of press and internet saluts just taking over the sleepy
Speaker 1: town part of me. When I arrived there, I felt
Speaker 1: like I was in the seventies, like in the seventies film,
Speaker 1: because everyone's just very hippy tastic there. Prior to arriving,
Speaker 1: I was afraid because Idaho, I'm thinking, you know, being
Speaker 1: a brown Muslim woman arriving in this community, like how
Speaker 1: will they receive me. But you know, Moscow residents are
Speaker 1: some of the kindest, most wonderful people that I've encountered,
Speaker 1: and that was surprising to me. But yeah, and when
Speaker 1: I arrived, I could feel the tension on the ground.
Speaker 1: And so that's like my first observation when I got
Speaker 1: to the ground that I really needed to take my
Speaker 1: time and get to know the people in a very
Speaker 1: very sensitive and mindful way.
Speaker 3: When you did first touchdown in Moscow, can you just
Speaker 3: describe what was it like, you know, the energy of
Speaker 3: the community. Did that change or evolve as days went on.
Speaker 1: Well, I landed and Spokeane and I drove two hours
Speaker 1: in the night, and as I drove, I noticed the
Speaker 1: rolling hills the Poloue, and since I was driving at night,
Speaker 1: it was just kind of eerie. And I had never
Speaker 1: been to Moscow before, so in my mind, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: what am I doing? And I wonder did the suspected
Speaker 1: killer drive down these roads. It's just like all these
Speaker 1: thoughts went through my mind. So that night I had
Speaker 1: dinner at the Mad Greek where Maddi Mogan and Xana
Speaker 1: Kernodle had worked, and having dinner there was also a
Speaker 1: very unsettling and eerie experience. Shortly after that, I went
Speaker 1: to the Corner Club and I could just feel there
Speaker 1: was this tension you can cut through with a knife.
Speaker 1: So I arrived at the Corner Club, I had a
Speaker 1: drink and then I looked down at the table and
Speaker 1: I see a picture of Mattie, Xana and Ethan and
Speaker 1: Kaylee on under the glass table, that one famous photo
Speaker 1: that's all over the news, And I'm just like is
Speaker 1: It's something about reading it and another kind of feeling
Speaker 1: when you're just in the location and looking at their
Speaker 1: picture real time. If I just thought I'm here, I'm reporting.
Speaker 1: I just want to go to all the places and
Speaker 1: see what it's like. So that was my first night.
Speaker 1: But I will say I was at the murder site
Speaker 1: quite a few times, and there are ring cameras. Neighbors
Speaker 1: have cameras, and I do wonder if the police have
Speaker 1: taken them men and what they might discover.
Speaker 2: You bring up neighbors. I've seen certain people give interviews
Speaker 2: on the news or etc.
Speaker 4: Because look, it was a house amongst many From what
Speaker 4: we've been told, it's sort of a dead end street.
Speaker 2: You would be super intentional if you were going to
Speaker 2: that particular house, right, it's not on a major road
Speaker 2: that goes to someplace else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's accurate. I mean it took me a few
Speaker 1: moments to recognize it because the house was boarded up.
Speaker 1: The house is hard to spot, But once you're there,
Speaker 1: the neighbors and people immediately see you and they're not
Speaker 1: happy for you to be there, and rightfully so. And
Speaker 1: I wonder if the demolishment of the home had a
Speaker 1: lot to do with that. This constant reminder.
Speaker 2: Whether you're reading about it or hearing about it on
Speaker 2: a podcast or seeing it on the news, it's very
Speaker 2: different than when you're actually boots on the ground, and
Speaker 2: it's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps,
Speaker 2: in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted
Speaker 2: by that.
Speaker 1: Vicarious trauma is real. One of the community members told me,
Speaker 1: you know, Moscow will never be the same again, and
Speaker 1: when I heard that, it broke my heart, because it's true.
Speaker 1: This case has totally changed the energy of this town
Speaker 1: and how people even engage with one another.
Speaker 3: Tanya, I'm very interested to get into the fact of
Speaker 3: what it was like, because you were there and attended
Speaker 3: hearings with the accused with people we have now only
Speaker 3: seen on TV or instill pictures. And I'm reminded of
Speaker 3: when we were covering the piked In massacre and we
Speaker 3: went to several of the childs and I was there
Speaker 3: when convicted murderer Jake Wagner was there, and it was
Speaker 3: so striking to me just the feel in this courtroom.
Speaker 3: And there was nobody on the Wagner side. There was
Speaker 3: nobody on the ACU side to support them, not one
Speaker 3: person of support, not a family member, a friend, a reverend,
Speaker 3: whereas on the victim side, the victim's family were there
Speaker 3: absolutely steadfast and just holding court in the courtroom on
Speaker 3: their side. So it was a really interesting juxtaposition. What
Speaker 3: was the feeling like? Can you describe what the hearings
Speaker 3: were like?
Speaker 1: The first hearing I went to was the arraignment, and
Speaker 1: while I stood outside of the courthouse, I encountered the
Speaker 1: couple that came in from another country that were on
Speaker 1: this crime tourism thing and that was their form of
Speaker 1: taking a vacation coming to this arraignment. And you know,
Speaker 1: Moscow is a really small town. So the organization of
Speaker 1: letting reporters, community members all into the courthouse was a
Speaker 1: bit of a I don't want to say a mess,
Speaker 1: but they have never dealt with anything like this before.
Speaker 1: This is an overwhelming amount of international national news reporters,
Speaker 1: salutes and just everyone and residents just wanting to see.
Speaker 1: And I remember I had to put my name on
Speaker 1: the list. And then I went in and Coburger arrived
Speaker 1: in an orange jumpsuit, and and Taylor, a couple of
Speaker 1: police officers, the judge obviously, and then I look and
Speaker 1: I see, if I'm not mistaken, I think and solve
Speaker 1: this family were at the arraignment, and Shannon Gray, their attorney.
Speaker 4: Wait, the arraignment is a big deal too.
Speaker 2: Is that the first time that mister Gonzalvez would have
Speaker 2: seen the accused, Brian Coburger in the courtroom face to face.
Speaker 1: I would think so.
Speaker 4: I think so too.
Speaker 1: Then after the charges were read, Brian Coberger's attorney declined
Speaker 1: to inter plea and elected to stand silent. That prompted
Speaker 1: the judge to enter and not guilty plea. This is
Speaker 1: the interesting thing that I've been reporting on and I
Speaker 1: haven't talked about, and I'm talking about with you, is
Speaker 1: I walk out. I'm sitting in the hallway and there's
Speaker 1: a been to be another hearing. I forget what the
Speaker 1: hearing was, and then I see the Consolves family just
Speaker 1: walk right past me through the hallway, just running, and
Speaker 1: they're running down the street and I look outside. I
Speaker 1: run out too, and I see all these cameras just
Speaker 1: running behind them after them. And I was really unsettling
Speaker 1: to watch this grieving family coming here, you know, to
Speaker 1: this hearing, facing this situation, and then this overwhelming presence
Speaker 1: of intrusion, essentially.
Speaker 4: But I see all sides of that.
Speaker 2: On the one hand, you have to go and you
Speaker 2: have to report on it, and it should make us
Speaker 2: mad as hell that these families have been put through it, right,
Speaker 2: we want to again support and rally around them. And
Speaker 2: that's the fine line. So now there you are. Obviously
Speaker 2: the emotion in the courtroom has to be major. What
Speaker 2: was it like seeing him for the first time.
Speaker 1: I can say seeing him in an orange jumpsuit and
Speaker 1: his face in real time made it very real. I
Speaker 1: don't know how to explain that. I'm sure you both relate.
Speaker 1: Everything just felt almost too real. And yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a tense moment because the families were their community leaders.
Speaker 1: Journalists just everybody just there focused on this moment, and
Speaker 1: it went by pretty fast, Honestly. The other hearing I
Speaker 1: went to, which was on June twenty seventh, was interesting
Speaker 1: because it was the first time I had seen Coburger
Speaker 1: wearing a suit. I'm sitting towards the back, and I
Speaker 1: see Coburger walk in, suited and booted, hair jelled, just
Speaker 1: looking very put together. Quite the contrast from what I
Speaker 1: when I had I've seen him last in an orange jumpsuit.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him
Speaker 1: walk in and then we locked eyes. It felt like
Speaker 1: chills went down my spine. I felt gutted in my stomach.
Speaker 1: Those few seconds felt like a whole five minutes, felt
Speaker 1: much longer than the gaze. And when I looked in
Speaker 1: his eyes, there was this very blank, blank stare, almost
Speaker 1: like gray, but that's how I'd describe it.
Speaker 2: Was Brian Coberger's parents or his siblings, or any family
Speaker 2: members present at any of the hearings that you can recall, No, I.
Speaker 1: Didn't see anyone from his family.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: It's a tough one.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: On the one hand, you respect the privacy they're under
Speaker 2: a gag order going to the courtroom is going to
Speaker 2: create perhaps more of a frenzy and open the door
Speaker 2: to more questions. On the other side of that, you
Speaker 2: would want to show support because by showing up, it
Speaker 2: is saying loud and clear, we do not believe these charges.
Speaker 2: Our son or our family member is innocent. And it's
Speaker 2: a confusing thing. You know. I don't have a personal
Speaker 2: opinion on it. It's a really big deal to be
Speaker 2: in a situation where and Courtney can speak to this
Speaker 2: as well. And I've been in court rooms before with
Speaker 2: convicted killers. In your case, there has been no conviction.
Speaker 2: He claims his innocence, and I don't think that can
Speaker 2: be understated. Specifically, Courtney, when she went to Jake Wagner,
Speaker 2: the accused Pie County murderer's trial, we had been tag
Speaker 2: teaming and court not to put words in your mouth,
Speaker 2: but you were visibly upset because you had, you know,
Speaker 2: seemingly locked eyes with Jake Wagner, and I was like, no, wait.
Speaker 4: What you locked eyes? He did it? He said he
Speaker 4: did it, and we know he's.
Speaker 2: He's capable of murdering eight people, and we were shook.
Speaker 2: If you want to share a little bit, yeah, just
Speaker 2: his affect. This is a man who he helped coordinate
Speaker 2: and helped fuel his family members to murder eight other people,
Speaker 2: including the mother of his child, including the grandmother of
Speaker 2: his child. And as he is telling the details of this,
Speaker 2: you know, meticulously and slowly, as you do during examination
Speaker 2: and cross examination, the callousness. It wasn't even like describing
Speaker 2: a holiday event. It was more like describing going to
Speaker 2: the grocery store. Just the lack of feeling the and
Speaker 2: a lot was made of this in the press, and
Speaker 2: it really was the truth. He's smirking, He was smirking
Speaker 2: telling this, and it was just it was deeply unsettling.
Speaker 2: She came back, and then I went to George Wagner's
Speaker 2: trial and Angela, the mother who also at that point
Speaker 2: had taken a plead deal and confessed to plotting the
Speaker 2: murders of eight people she knew and knew very well,
Speaker 2: and was going to now testify against her eldest son,
Speaker 2: guaranteeing him life in prison. I had to almost look down.
Speaker 2: I was petrified to lock eyes with her. Based on
Speaker 2: Courtney's experience, did you notice if he and I'm speaking
Speaker 2: of the accused now, Brian Coberger, did he have any
Speaker 2: reaction that you noticed or worth noting at any of
Speaker 2: the hearings that you were at that maybe we just didn't.
Speaker 4: We haven't seen ourselves.
Speaker 1: He walked in with his suit and tie, and Taylor
Speaker 1: was really well put together herself. She had her hair
Speaker 1: was blow dried and curled, and she looked both of
Speaker 1: them looked very put together, unlike the previous hearing where
Speaker 1: he was in an orange jumpsuit. And during the proceedings,
Speaker 1: she continued to say that her client was not a
Speaker 1: phishing expedition and she wanted to see what evidence the
Speaker 1: prosecution had against her client. So there was a lot
Speaker 1: of back and forth about that during that particular hearing,
Speaker 1: and she said, quote unquote, we've asked for several things
Speaker 1: that we still need so and those include cell phone
Speaker 1: investigations and what led the police to seek out a
Speaker 1: Hundai like the one driven by Coburger. There was a
Speaker 1: sense of confidence with Ann Taylor that permeated the room,
Speaker 1: And I remember going to the bar afterwards and I
Speaker 1: would just listen in on people just talking and they'd say, like,
Speaker 1: how could.
Speaker 3: She do this?
Speaker 1: If he if he like steps foot out of that joke,
Speaker 1: like he gets shot in the head. I'm surprised he
Speaker 1: hasn't been shot by now. Like one of the residents said,
Speaker 1: like it was wild. Also like this very rural aspect
Speaker 1: to I do her residence or Moscow residence. A lot
Speaker 1: of these men that I've met were doing physical life
Speaker 1: jobs that were very physically demanding, and coming to the
Speaker 1: bar was just a space to let loose. And the
Speaker 1: bar is the spot for all the community folk coming together.
Speaker 1: They're trivia games, all friends meeting up, college kids. It's
Speaker 1: just the area where everyone flocked to.
Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 3: a moment. During your visits, did you encounter anyone who
Speaker 3: knew the victims or were in their circle and sort
Speaker 3: of could speak to the before when everything was quote normal.
Speaker 1: I went to the University of Idaho and contacted their
Speaker 1: journalism department and it ended up being this really fascinating
Speaker 1: organic experience where I engaged with the student newspaper, the Argonauts,
Speaker 1: these student journalists who were the first ones on the
Speaker 1: ground when the murders took place, and I can't begin
Speaker 1: to tell you how hard it hit them psychologically, and
Speaker 1: just listening to their stories and how they covered this
Speaker 1: day by day, no sleep, not eating, just there can't
Speaker 1: begin to imagine what it's like to be a student
Speaker 1: journalist living through and reporting on such a tragedy, such
Speaker 1: a travesty. And one of the students was childhood friends
Speaker 1: with Xanna Kernodle. But for him, what was striking to
Speaker 1: me about him was how personal this is while also
Speaker 1: wanting to be a good journalist and tell the story
Speaker 1: the right way. So I would say that would be
Speaker 1: my most striking example of getting close to the story
Speaker 1: and people connected to it. I don't want to paint
Speaker 1: Moscow as a time and that's just yeah, it's forever
Speaker 1: change and this horrible tragedy, these tragic murders took place.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I also see the resilience
Speaker 1: of the community. It's a very strong community, and with
Speaker 1: the students too, you know, they want to go on
Speaker 1: with their lives and so the campus. While there was
Speaker 1: this somber energy, I would say there was also this
Speaker 1: it's a bubbly college town. It's just very nice, very
Speaker 1: it's wonderful.
Speaker 2: Actually, was there a sense while you were there during
Speaker 2: the time of these hearings, did it feel like in
Speaker 2: the town that wait, maybe this isn't the guy, and like,
Speaker 2: we're still unsafe. Did it seem as though we look
Speaker 2: there could still be a killer at large?
Speaker 4: Did you feel scared or did it feel like it
Speaker 4: settled a little bit?
Speaker 1: A lot of the residents that I spoke to, they
Speaker 1: said that they think it's co worker, and there was
Speaker 1: a sense of ease among many of them, the ones
Speaker 1: I had spoken to, he is not the word, but
Speaker 1: a sense of Okay, he's in jail. He's in the
Speaker 1: basement of the which, mind you, my Airbnb that I
Speaker 1: slept in at night faced his jail cell, which was
Speaker 1: an interesting way to sleep. So when I opened my
Speaker 1: window from my bedroom, I would see where he was
Speaker 1: being held. So in terms of being afraid, I just wondered, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is a small town and he's being held in
Speaker 1: this tiny little facility that seems really guarded up and protected.
Speaker 1: But still there's like a little bit of there's an
Speaker 1: anxiety that rolls in when you're in such close proximity
Speaker 1: to this alleged killer.
Speaker 3: What did it look like from your Airbnb window.
Speaker 1: From all ends right the Airbnb window? And then I'd
Speaker 1: go do my groceries and I'd have to walk up
Speaker 1: the hill and pass by where he's being held. So
Speaker 1: it was a constant reality for me. Even the airbnb
Speaker 1: host that I was renting from, she said that she
Speaker 1: was really concerned about the property value and if people
Speaker 1: would even want to stay there. And so there's like
Speaker 1: this sense of like you can sense that change as well,
Speaker 1: this unsettled feeling of the people who live near the courthouse.
Speaker 1: But yeah, walking by, there's I notice a gate, like
Speaker 1: a fenced up gate. I think that's the open air area.
Speaker 1: That's what one of the community residents told me, that
Speaker 1: the prisoners are brought out to walk outside and get sunshine.
Speaker 1: So he was being held in that area.
Speaker 3: Having been there, what are people getting wrong? What do
Speaker 3: people need to know about the actualities.
Speaker 1: I think there's you know, for the community, for friends
Speaker 1: of the victims, for those people. There's a lack of
Speaker 1: empathy in the reporting by the journalists or documentarians covering
Speaker 1: this case, which really puts off the residents to even
Speaker 1: want to talk to anyone. And so the biggest takeaway
Speaker 1: for me was these victims, like who were they before
Speaker 1: all this? Like what are the stories? And we don't
Speaker 1: hear enough of that honoring their lives honoring their light
Speaker 1: what they brought to the world, I think would do
Speaker 1: a great justice to the story, and I don't think
Speaker 1: has been done enough.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you had heard anything about Doug
Speaker 3: Wilson or the christ Church. Now if you care to comment,
Speaker 3: if you have a thought, Okay, what do you know?
Speaker 1: There's a podcast out called Extremely American.
Speaker 3: It's really good.
Speaker 1: It's about christ Church and it goes into the details
Speaker 1: about Doug Wilson and all that. So in my reporting,
Speaker 1: not only did I go to the bars and Mad
Speaker 1: Gregg to all the spots, I also I went to
Speaker 1: a christ Church service. And Yeah, it's very interesting because
Speaker 1: it really kind of summarizes Moscow because there's this tension
Speaker 1: between the demographic that I really connected with, like these
Speaker 1: Pep people who are just completely liberal. It's like the
Speaker 1: blue dot of Idaho, and then this contrasting force, though small,
Speaker 1: I mean, like they're a minority, but still have impact
Speaker 1: because they bought I think twenty percent of the real
Speaker 1: estate in Moscow. Yeah, I went to their service and
Speaker 1: it was a very uncomfortable experience. I got very patriarchal
Speaker 1: man cultish vibes. I'm not in a position to comment
Speaker 1: further because I don't know enough about them. But what
Speaker 1: I do know is the Moscow residents that I did
Speaker 1: speak to and engage with or are just disgusted by
Speaker 1: christ Church and their beliefs and what I mean. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Doug Wilson. There's a cafe that all everyone goes to.
Speaker 1: It's called One World Cafe. And I went there all
Speaker 1: the time. The students were there, all the time, professors
Speaker 1: would go there. It's just like, when you go into
Speaker 1: that establishment, you know you are in your safe and
Speaker 1: then they're like christ Church establishments that are there too.
Speaker 1: And when I walk into those spaces, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: this does not That's such a good question, Courtney, because
Speaker 1: that's Moscow. It's these two extreme worlds somehow coexisting together
Speaker 1: through it. On top of the tragic murders that took
Speaker 1: lays there.
Speaker 3: Just the dichotomy, it seems fascinating. And you know, I
Speaker 3: had brought it up only because I'm really curious of
Speaker 3: the potential depending upon if the church goers end up
Speaker 3: on the jury what that will mean.
Speaker 1: I do wonder what that means for the future of
Speaker 1: this case and what role they will play. For sure,
Speaker 1: that is, if the case is going to take place
Speaker 1: in Latoky. If it is even we don't know yet.
Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
Speaker 3: a moment. After this conversation, Stephanie and I got further
Speaker 3: interested in Doug Wilson's Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. We
Speaker 3: wanted to look into it as a way to understand
Speaker 3: the backdrop of a portion of this community.
Speaker 2: It's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that there is on
Speaker 2: the one side this college town where there are students
Speaker 2: and it's very free thinking in liberal and then on
Speaker 2: the flip of that, there's a really big portion of
Speaker 2: the town that attends this very specific church and their
Speaker 2: teachings are in fact very controversial. So we decided to
Speaker 2: do a deeper dive. So the name of the church
Speaker 2: is Christ Church in Moscow, and it's run by a
Speaker 2: pastor named Doug Wilson, and his writings and his teachings
Speaker 2: really have received a lot of backlash, specifically in the press,
Speaker 2: and it seems though for some good reason, the church's
Speaker 2: teachings and Wilson's leadership has sparked a lot of resistance
Speaker 2: in the town of Moscow. And when doing our research,
Speaker 2: it became pretty clear that there have been some really
Speaker 2: scary allegations brought up against the church and the pastor
Speaker 2: specifically some sexual allegations and reports of pedophilia.
Speaker 3: It's a Calvinist church and the mission, according to its
Speaker 3: own website, is to make Moscow quote a Christian town
Speaker 3: under God's grace. And this brought national attention to the
Speaker 3: town of Moscow just two months before the massacres happened.
Speaker 3: Doug Wilson was on meet the press. It had to
Speaker 3: do with the larger idea of the struggle between liberalism
Speaker 3: and Christian nationalism, so this was really a way to
Speaker 3: spotlight it. Since again the whole mission is to turn
Speaker 3: the town under God's rule. So in this case Doug
Speaker 3: Wilson has come out and said, for example, they would
Speaker 3: be new rules and new laws like no gay marriage,
Speaker 3: because it would be presided over by God's rules and
Speaker 3: not the governments.
Speaker 2: Their teachings really are that women must be subservient to
Speaker 2: their husbands and that essentially this small town should be
Speaker 2: run by the church, meaning the laws that are either
Speaker 2: federal laws or even state laws would be dismissed, and
Speaker 2: that the church would have their godly rule over the area.
Speaker 3: And speaking of you know, the controversies that you mentioned.
Speaker 3: It's incredibly patriarchal, and not only does Doug Wilson the
Speaker 3: founder and pastor of the church, but also there's a
Speaker 3: school that goes from kindergarten up through college, and people
Speaker 3: have since come out and said they have been groomed
Speaker 3: to be submissive as women, and misogynistic language and teachings
Speaker 3: are pervasive, and some have claimed that this has led
Speaker 3: to abusive behavior.
Speaker 2: In fact, several members of the church, including former deacon
Speaker 2: Alex Lloyd, who pleaded guilty to child pornography charges in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, they face arrests and convictions related to
Speaker 2: sex crimes.
Speaker 3: And in addition to pedophilia. As you had mentioned, Doug
Speaker 3: Wilson wrote a book called Father Hunger, and in this
Speaker 3: book specifically, he writes, quote, the sexual act cannot be
Speaker 3: made into a egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants,
Speaker 3: a woman receives, surrenders and accepts.
Speaker 2: And look how this ties into the massacre. We're not
Speaker 2: making any assertions that anybody related to the church has
Speaker 2: any connection to the crimes themselves. It's just an interesting
Speaker 2: Backdob that we hadn't heard about before and we wanted
Speaker 2: to explore.
Speaker 4: A lot has been written.
Speaker 2: About the fact that this particular church, twenty percent of
Speaker 2: the population of Moscow are church members, and that has
Speaker 2: been reported in the press as interesting or potentially problematic.
Speaker 2: When selecting a jury pool, this particular church essentially grooms
Speaker 2: its members to not believe in law enforcement and to
Speaker 2: be weary of law enforcement. So now you're choosing a
Speaker 2: jury pool, and invariably the numbers and the odds would
Speaker 2: be that if one fifth of the population is a
Speaker 2: member of this church, that their teachings would not be
Speaker 2: in alignment with listening to proper forensics and police information
Speaker 2: as reported by first responders or Moscow law enforcement, for example.
Speaker 3: And there's a particular incident that happened that really brings
Speaker 3: that to bear. So this happened in September of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: It is the absolute height of COVID, and the members
Speaker 3: of Christ Church had an event called a Palm Sing
Speaker 3: and they gathered in front of Moscow City Hall without
Speaker 3: masks despite mandate. During that event, people were arrested for
Speaker 3: non compliance of the mask mandate. So ultimately three members
Speaker 3: of the congregation who were arrested. They went on to
Speaker 3: file a civil lawsuit for this arrest and the town.
Speaker 3: Some argue that the town buckled and that instead of
Speaker 3: going forward with prosecution, the city settled outside of court
Speaker 3: and agreed to pay three hundred thousand dollars to dismiss
Speaker 3: all claims. So that again makes people nervous that what
Speaker 3: kind of influence does the church potentially have on officials.
Speaker 3: And also back to your point of the jury, the
Speaker 3: church itself has said we can't shouldn't be abiding by police.
Speaker 3: They don't tell the truth. Their laws are not our law.
Speaker 3: And so how might that in fact change a dry pool?
Speaker 2: We were curious if that was something that happened in
Speaker 2: other places or other churches. And the twenty percent population
Speaker 2: piece of it seemed really high when I first heard it.
Speaker 2: But we have done some comparisons, again, not comparisons on religion.
Speaker 4: We're not weighing in on that at all.
Speaker 2: Just the idea of a church or someplace where people gather.
Speaker 2: What the influence on the town that would be. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's not super uncommon. For example, top of head, I'm
Speaker 2: thinking of scientology. I know they have a center in
Speaker 2: clear Water, Florida. And my understanding is the church itself
Speaker 2: has bought a lot of land in and around that town. Therefore,
Speaker 2: the businesses are also owned by Scientology, and the numbers
Speaker 2: in that regard are pretty extraordinary. Kay, what are the
Speaker 2: stats on the Scientology clear Water?
Speaker 5: As of April twenty twenty four, the church Scientology in Clearwater,
Speaker 5: Florida owns sixty eight parcels of land worth about one
Speaker 5: hundred and sixty eight million dollars, and its presence in
Speaker 5: clear Water has had a significant impact on the city,
Speaker 5: including property taxes, tourism, downtown revitalization.
Speaker 2: Which is interesting because if a certain church owns a
Speaker 2: lot of the land, I would have to assume that's
Speaker 2: controversial for tax reasons or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2: But in this case, it seems as though the church
Speaker 2: is not buying up shops and locations in and around Moscow.
Speaker 2: It's just that this particular christ Church has many congregants
Speaker 2: that live in the town. Therefore they work in the town,
Speaker 2: and if they work in the town, of course they're
Speaker 2: going to buy homes in the town. But it's not
Speaker 2: as though the christ Church specifically is buying land. But
Speaker 2: it does seem to be this really unique intersection in
Speaker 2: surrounding areas like Troy, for example, another town over. There
Speaker 2: is now some pushback on this because they really do
Speaker 2: feel that these opposing forces are not heading down the
Speaker 2: right direction.
Speaker 3: And the distinction you make between the church itself owning
Speaker 3: land and the congregants is something that Doug Wilson actually
Speaker 3: put a very fine point on because it has been
Speaker 3: such a bone of contention. So here's something else that
Speaker 3: he posted on his blog. Quote I just mentioned are
Speaker 3: people building businesses. This is not something that is controlled
Speaker 3: in any way by the church. Our members are an
Speaker 3: enterprising bunch. Put another way, I don't own a chunk
Speaker 3: of downtown. The only thing I own downtown would be
Speaker 3: my truck when I'm there and the books in my office.
Speaker 3: So he's really putting a distance between himself and the businesses,
Speaker 3: I think, to help quell the argument that it is
Speaker 3: some sort of a takeover that's shining to be happening.
Speaker 4: It seems like that is the main goal.
Speaker 2: And perhaps unlike sign atology, my loose understanding is christ
Speaker 2: Church and its pastor Doug Wilson want to create their
Speaker 2: own laws for the town that do not abide by
Speaker 2: state laws or frankly even federal laws. And that's a
Speaker 2: really unusual mission. And you know, listen, there's these extreme
Speaker 2: cases of pedophilia accusations, sexual abuse accusations, violence against women,
Speaker 2: the notion that they are grooming women to be submissive
Speaker 2: to their husbands and to be air quotes receivers. This
Speaker 2: is some fundamental stuff that has undertones of The Handmaid's
Speaker 2: Tale or one of those scary shows that I literally
Speaker 2: can't watch because they are too scary.
Speaker 3: It's funny you should mention Handmaid's Tale because it seems
Speaker 3: like Doug Wilson and or whoever's helping with his pr
Speaker 3: they really use opposing arguments within their own arguments. So
Speaker 3: here's another thing that he posted. What about the Christian
Speaker 3: town part. If such a thing were to happen, it
Speaker 3: would happen quietly, with no one really noticing it took shape,
Speaker 3: and then one day people would just wake up and
Speaker 3: realize that the seal of the city had a church
Speaker 3: spire at the center of it. See above. We find
Speaker 3: dystopic scenarios of the Handmaid's Tale sort of as repulsive
Speaker 3: as you do. He then goes on to say what
Speaker 3: they have in mind is something akin to an eighteen
Speaker 3: ninety two Supreme Court decision that determined the United States
Speaker 3: was a Christian nation. And he ends with saying we
Speaker 3: are not looking for a hell hole with Bible verses attached.
Speaker 3: He is hearkening back to eighteen ninety two for the
Speaker 3: future of Moscow.
Speaker 4: That definitely feels like an odd step backward.
Speaker 2: I think we should continue to dig into this because
Speaker 2: Doug Wilson as a figure has been quoted as being
Speaker 2: very impressive and very charismatic, and that even if you
Speaker 2: do not believe a single thing that he say, that
Speaker 2: he has a very influential way about him. And what
Speaker 2: influence does that have on this case? But again, this
Speaker 2: is very uniquely different and kind of an undercurrent that
Speaker 2: people who have visited the area. As we've heard, this
Speaker 2: is really noticeable in the town too.
Speaker 3: You can feel it.
Speaker 2: It is a cross section that's happening right now that
Speaker 2: isn't going anywhere. It seems like it's only going to
Speaker 2: get worse.
Speaker 3: More on that next time. For more information on the
Speaker 3: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Speaker 3: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
Speaker 3: by Jeff Trois, music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
Speaker 3: is a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.