1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,119 Speaker 1: One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: will never be the same again. And when I heard that, 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: it broke my heart. 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: It's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps, 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: by that. 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: walk in, and then we locked eyes. 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KATI Studios 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season two episode ten, Boots on the Ground. 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong, our producer at Katie's Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: and Gabe Castillo. Stephanie and I spoke with veteran journalist 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 3: Tanya Rashid, who traveled to Moscow and stayed there on 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 3: and off of the course of eight months. Tanya has 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 3: worked for outlets including National g Geographic Vice, and PBS 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 3: News Hour. We asked Tanya what drew her to this 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: type of work. 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: I think part of the reason why I became a 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: journalist has a lot to do with my exposure to 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: extreme worlds. I was born in Saudi Arabia and then 21 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: we moved to Salt Lake City, so it's like one 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: isolated place. Saudi Arabia to Utah, which is like totally 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: polar opposites. So I feel like that has a lot 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: to do with my curiosity for different worlds. For me, 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: it's been a lot about uncovering difficult stories, hard to 26 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: access stories, and for the past thirteen years, somehow organically 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: my niche has become covering traumatized communities. I've covered famine, genocide, 28 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: gender based violence across the world, and tragedy in our 29 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: own backyard. 30 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: Tragedy in our own backyard. I feel like that brings 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 3: us to know the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho. 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: When I got there, it was three months after, and 33 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: the community itself was incredibly just very afraid and not 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: wanting to associate with any media whatsoever because after the murders, 35 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: as you both very well know, there was a lot 36 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: of press and internet saluts just taking over the sleepy 37 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: town part of me. When I arrived there, I felt 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: like I was in the seventies, like in the seventies film, 39 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: because everyone's just very hippy tastic there. Prior to arriving, 40 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: I was afraid because Idaho, I'm thinking, you know, being 41 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: a brown Muslim woman arriving in this community, like how 42 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: will they receive me. But you know, Moscow residents are 43 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: some of the kindest, most wonderful people that I've encountered, 44 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: and that was surprising to me. But yeah, and when 45 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: I arrived, I could feel the tension on the ground. 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: And so that's like my first observation when I got 47 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: to the ground that I really needed to take my 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: time and get to know the people in a very 49 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: very sensitive and mindful way. 50 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: When you did first touchdown in Moscow, can you just 51 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 3: describe what was it like, you know, the energy of 52 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 3: the community. Did that change or evolve as days went on. 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: Well, I landed and Spokeane and I drove two hours 54 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: in the night, and as I drove, I noticed the 55 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: rolling hills the Poloue, and since I was driving at night, 56 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: it was just kind of eerie. And I had never 57 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: been to Moscow before, so in my mind, I'm thinking 58 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: what am I doing? And I wonder did the suspected 59 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: killer drive down these roads. It's just like all these 60 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: thoughts went through my mind. So that night I had 61 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: dinner at the Mad Greek where Maddi Mogan and Xana 62 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: Kernodle had worked, and having dinner there was also a 63 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: very unsettling and eerie experience. Shortly after that, I went 64 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: to the Corner Club and I could just feel there 65 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: was this tension you can cut through with a knife. 66 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: So I arrived at the Corner Club, I had a 67 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: drink and then I looked down at the table and 68 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: I see a picture of Mattie, Xana and Ethan and 69 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: Kaylee on under the glass table, that one famous photo 70 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: that's all over the news, And I'm just like is 71 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: It's something about reading it and another kind of feeling 72 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: when you're just in the location and looking at their 73 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: picture real time. If I just thought I'm here, I'm reporting. 74 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: I just want to go to all the places and 75 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: see what it's like. So that was my first night. 76 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: But I will say I was at the murder site 77 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: quite a few times, and there are ring cameras. Neighbors 78 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: have cameras, and I do wonder if the police have 79 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: taken them men and what they might discover. 80 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: You bring up neighbors. I've seen certain people give interviews 81 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: on the news or etc. 82 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 4: Because look, it was a house amongst many From what 83 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 4: we've been told, it's sort of a dead end street. 84 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 2: You would be super intentional if you were going to 85 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: that particular house, right, it's not on a major road 86 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: that goes to someplace else. 87 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's accurate. I mean it took me a few 88 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: moments to recognize it because the house was boarded up. 89 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: The house is hard to spot, But once you're there, 90 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: the neighbors and people immediately see you and they're not 91 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: happy for you to be there, and rightfully so. And 92 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if the demolishment of the home had a 93 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: lot to do with that. This constant reminder. 94 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: Whether you're reading about it or hearing about it on 95 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: a podcast or seeing it on the news, it's very 96 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: different than when you're actually boots on the ground, and 97 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: it's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps, 98 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted 99 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: by that. 100 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: Vicarious trauma is real. One of the community members told me, 101 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, Moscow will never be the same again, and 102 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: when I heard that, it broke my heart, because it's true. 103 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: This case has totally changed the energy of this town 104 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: and how people even engage with one another. 105 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: Tanya, I'm very interested to get into the fact of 106 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: what it was like, because you were there and attended 107 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 3: hearings with the accused with people we have now only 108 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: seen on TV or instill pictures. And I'm reminded of 109 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 3: when we were covering the piked In massacre and we 110 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 3: went to several of the childs and I was there 111 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: when convicted murderer Jake Wagner was there, and it was 112 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: so striking to me just the feel in this courtroom. 113 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 3: And there was nobody on the Wagner side. There was 114 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: nobody on the ACU side to support them, not one 115 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: person of support, not a family member, a friend, a reverend, 116 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 3: whereas on the victim side, the victim's family were there 117 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 3: absolutely steadfast and just holding court in the courtroom on 118 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 3: their side. So it was a really interesting juxtaposition. What 119 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: was the feeling like? Can you describe what the hearings 120 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 3: were like? 121 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: The first hearing I went to was the arraignment, and 122 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: while I stood outside of the courthouse, I encountered the 123 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: couple that came in from another country that were on 124 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: this crime tourism thing and that was their form of 125 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: taking a vacation coming to this arraignment. And you know, 126 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: Moscow is a really small town. So the organization of 127 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: letting reporters, community members all into the courthouse was a 128 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: bit of a I don't want to say a mess, 129 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: but they have never dealt with anything like this before. 130 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: This is an overwhelming amount of international national news reporters, 131 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: salutes and just everyone and residents just wanting to see. 132 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: And I remember I had to put my name on 133 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: the list. And then I went in and Coburger arrived 134 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: in an orange jumpsuit, and and Taylor, a couple of 135 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: police officers, the judge obviously, and then I look and 136 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: I see, if I'm not mistaken, I think and solve 137 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: this family were at the arraignment, and Shannon Gray, their attorney. 138 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 4: Wait, the arraignment is a big deal too. 139 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: Is that the first time that mister Gonzalvez would have 140 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: seen the accused, Brian Coburger in the courtroom face to face. 141 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: I would think so. 142 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 4: I think so too. 143 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: Then after the charges were read, Brian Coberger's attorney declined 144 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: to inter plea and elected to stand silent. That prompted 145 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: the judge to enter and not guilty plea. This is 146 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: the interesting thing that I've been reporting on and I 147 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: haven't talked about, and I'm talking about with you, is 148 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: I walk out. I'm sitting in the hallway and there's 149 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: a been to be another hearing. I forget what the 150 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: hearing was, and then I see the Consolves family just 151 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: walk right past me through the hallway, just running, and 152 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: they're running down the street and I look outside. I 153 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: run out too, and I see all these cameras just 154 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: running behind them after them. And I was really unsettling 155 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: to watch this grieving family coming here, you know, to 156 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: this hearing, facing this situation, and then this overwhelming presence 157 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: of intrusion, essentially. 158 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: But I see all sides of that. 159 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: On the one hand, you have to go and you 160 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 2: have to report on it, and it should make us 161 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: mad as hell that these families have been put through it, right, 162 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: we want to again support and rally around them. And 163 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: that's the fine line. So now there you are. Obviously 164 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: the emotion in the courtroom has to be major. What 165 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: was it like seeing him for the first time. 166 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: I can say seeing him in an orange jumpsuit and 167 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: his face in real time made it very real. I 168 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: don't know how to explain that. I'm sure you both relate. 169 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: Everything just felt almost too real. And yeah, it was 170 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: a tense moment because the families were their community leaders. 171 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: Journalists just everybody just there focused on this moment, and 172 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: it went by pretty fast, Honestly. The other hearing I 173 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: went to, which was on June twenty seventh, was interesting 174 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: because it was the first time I had seen Coburger 175 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: wearing a suit. I'm sitting towards the back, and I 176 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: see Coburger walk in, suited and booted, hair jelled, just 177 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: looking very put together. Quite the contrast from what I 178 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: when I had I've seen him last in an orange jumpsuit. 179 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him 180 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: walk in and then we locked eyes. It felt like 181 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: chills went down my spine. I felt gutted in my stomach. 182 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: Those few seconds felt like a whole five minutes, felt 183 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: much longer than the gaze. And when I looked in 184 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: his eyes, there was this very blank, blank stare, almost 185 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: like gray, but that's how I'd describe it. 186 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: Was Brian Coberger's parents or his siblings, or any family 187 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: members present at any of the hearings that you can recall, No, I. 188 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: Didn't see anyone from his family. 189 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 3: Wow. 190 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 4: It's a tough one. 191 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 3: Right. 192 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: On the one hand, you respect the privacy they're under 193 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: a gag order going to the courtroom is going to 194 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: create perhaps more of a frenzy and open the door 195 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: to more questions. On the other side of that, you 196 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: would want to show support because by showing up, it 197 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: is saying loud and clear, we do not believe these charges. 198 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: Our son or our family member is innocent. And it's 199 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: a confusing thing. You know. I don't have a personal 200 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: opinion on it. It's a really big deal to be 201 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 2: in a situation where and Courtney can speak to this 202 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: as well. And I've been in court rooms before with 203 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: convicted killers. In your case, there has been no conviction. 204 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: He claims his innocence, and I don't think that can 205 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: be understated. Specifically, Courtney, when she went to Jake Wagner, 206 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: the accused Pie County murderer's trial, we had been tag 207 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 2: teaming and court not to put words in your mouth, 208 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 2: but you were visibly upset because you had, you know, 209 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,359 Speaker 2: seemingly locked eyes with Jake Wagner, and I was like, no, wait. 210 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 4: What you locked eyes? He did it? He said he 211 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 4: did it, and we know he's. 212 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: He's capable of murdering eight people, and we were shook. 213 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: If you want to share a little bit, yeah, just 214 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: his affect. This is a man who he helped coordinate 215 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: and helped fuel his family members to murder eight other people, 216 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: including the mother of his child, including the grandmother of 217 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: his child. And as he is telling the details of this, 218 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: you know, meticulously and slowly, as you do during examination 219 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: and cross examination, the callousness. It wasn't even like describing 220 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: a holiday event. It was more like describing going to 221 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: the grocery store. Just the lack of feeling the and 222 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: a lot was made of this in the press, and 223 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: it really was the truth. He's smirking, He was smirking 224 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: telling this, and it was just it was deeply unsettling. 225 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: She came back, and then I went to George Wagner's 226 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: trial and Angela, the mother who also at that point 227 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: had taken a plead deal and confessed to plotting the 228 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: murders of eight people she knew and knew very well, 229 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: and was going to now testify against her eldest son, 230 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: guaranteeing him life in prison. I had to almost look down. 231 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 2: I was petrified to lock eyes with her. Based on 232 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: Courtney's experience, did you notice if he and I'm speaking 233 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: of the accused now, Brian Coberger, did he have any 234 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: reaction that you noticed or worth noting at any of 235 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: the hearings that you were at that maybe we just didn't. 236 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 4: We haven't seen ourselves. 237 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: He walked in with his suit and tie, and Taylor 238 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: was really well put together herself. She had her hair 239 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: was blow dried and curled, and she looked both of 240 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: them looked very put together, unlike the previous hearing where 241 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: he was in an orange jumpsuit. And during the proceedings, 242 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: she continued to say that her client was not a 243 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: phishing expedition and she wanted to see what evidence the 244 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: prosecution had against her client. So there was a lot 245 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: of back and forth about that during that particular hearing, 246 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: and she said, quote unquote, we've asked for several things 247 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: that we still need so and those include cell phone 248 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: investigations and what led the police to seek out a 249 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: Hundai like the one driven by Coburger. There was a 250 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: sense of confidence with Ann Taylor that permeated the room, 251 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: And I remember going to the bar afterwards and I 252 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: would just listen in on people just talking and they'd say, like, 253 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: how could. 254 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: She do this? 255 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: If he if he like steps foot out of that joke, 256 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: like he gets shot in the head. I'm surprised he 257 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: hasn't been shot by now. Like one of the residents said, 258 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: like it was wild. Also like this very rural aspect 259 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: to I do her residence or Moscow residence. A lot 260 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: of these men that I've met were doing physical life 261 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: jobs that were very physically demanding, and coming to the 262 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: bar was just a space to let loose. And the 263 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: bar is the spot for all the community folk coming together. 264 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: They're trivia games, all friends meeting up, college kids. It's 265 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: just the area where everyone flocked to. 266 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 267 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: a moment. During your visits, did you encounter anyone who 268 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: knew the victims or were in their circle and sort 269 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 3: of could speak to the before when everything was quote normal. 270 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: I went to the University of Idaho and contacted their 271 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,359 Speaker 1: journalism department and it ended up being this really fascinating 272 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: organic experience where I engaged with the student newspaper, the Argonauts, 273 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: these student journalists who were the first ones on the 274 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: ground when the murders took place, and I can't begin 275 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: to tell you how hard it hit them psychologically, and 276 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: just listening to their stories and how they covered this 277 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: day by day, no sleep, not eating, just there can't 278 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: begin to imagine what it's like to be a student 279 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: journalist living through and reporting on such a tragedy, such 280 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: a travesty. And one of the students was childhood friends 281 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 1: with Xanna Kernodle. But for him, what was striking to 282 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: me about him was how personal this is while also 283 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: wanting to be a good journalist and tell the story 284 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: the right way. So I would say that would be 285 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: my most striking example of getting close to the story 286 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: and people connected to it. I don't want to paint 287 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: Moscow as a time and that's just yeah, it's forever 288 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: change and this horrible tragedy, these tragic murders took place. 289 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I also see the resilience 290 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: of the community. It's a very strong community, and with 291 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: the students too, you know, they want to go on 292 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: with their lives and so the campus. While there was 293 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: this somber energy, I would say there was also this 294 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: it's a bubbly college town. It's just very nice, very 295 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: it's wonderful. 296 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: Actually, was there a sense while you were there during 297 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: the time of these hearings, did it feel like in 298 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: the town that wait, maybe this isn't the guy, and like, 299 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: we're still unsafe. Did it seem as though we look 300 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: there could still be a killer at large? 301 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 4: Did you feel scared or did it feel like it 302 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 4: settled a little bit? 303 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: A lot of the residents that I spoke to, they 304 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: said that they think it's co worker, and there was 305 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: a sense of ease among many of them, the ones 306 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: I had spoken to, he is not the word, but 307 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: a sense of Okay, he's in jail. He's in the 308 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: basement of the which, mind you, my Airbnb that I 309 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: slept in at night faced his jail cell, which was 310 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: an interesting way to sleep. So when I opened my 311 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: window from my bedroom, I would see where he was 312 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: being held. So in terms of being afraid, I just wondered, Oh, 313 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: this is a small town and he's being held in 314 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: this tiny little facility that seems really guarded up and protected. 315 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: But still there's like a little bit of there's an 316 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: anxiety that rolls in when you're in such close proximity 317 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: to this alleged killer. 318 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 3: What did it look like from your Airbnb window. 319 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: From all ends right the Airbnb window? And then I'd 320 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: go do my groceries and I'd have to walk up 321 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 1: the hill and pass by where he's being held. So 322 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: it was a constant reality for me. Even the airbnb 323 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: host that I was renting from, she said that she 324 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: was really concerned about the property value and if people 325 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: would even want to stay there. And so there's like 326 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: this sense of like you can sense that change as well, 327 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: this unsettled feeling of the people who live near the courthouse. 328 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, walking by, there's I notice a gate, like 329 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: a fenced up gate. I think that's the open air area. 330 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: That's what one of the community residents told me, that 331 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: the prisoners are brought out to walk outside and get sunshine. 332 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: So he was being held in that area. 333 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: Having been there, what are people getting wrong? What do 334 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: people need to know about the actualities. 335 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: I think there's you know, for the community, for friends 336 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 1: of the victims, for those people. There's a lack of 337 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: empathy in the reporting by the journalists or documentarians covering 338 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: this case, which really puts off the residents to even 339 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: want to talk to anyone. And so the biggest takeaway 340 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: for me was these victims, like who were they before 341 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: all this? Like what are the stories? And we don't 342 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: hear enough of that honoring their lives honoring their light 343 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: what they brought to the world, I think would do 344 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: a great justice to the story, and I don't think 345 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: has been done enough. 346 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 3: I don't know if you had heard anything about Doug 347 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: Wilson or the christ Church. Now if you care to comment, 348 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 3: if you have a thought, Okay, what do you know? 349 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: There's a podcast out called Extremely American. 350 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 3: It's really good. 351 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: It's about christ Church and it goes into the details 352 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: about Doug Wilson and all that. So in my reporting, 353 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: not only did I go to the bars and Mad 354 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: Gregg to all the spots, I also I went to 355 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: a christ Church service. And Yeah, it's very interesting because 356 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: it really kind of summarizes Moscow because there's this tension 357 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: between the demographic that I really connected with, like these 358 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: Pep people who are just completely liberal. It's like the 359 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: blue dot of Idaho, and then this contrasting force, though small, 360 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, like they're a minority, but still have impact 361 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: because they bought I think twenty percent of the real 362 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: estate in Moscow. Yeah, I went to their service and 363 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: it was a very uncomfortable experience. I got very patriarchal 364 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: man cultish vibes. I'm not in a position to comment 365 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: further because I don't know enough about them. But what 366 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: I do know is the Moscow residents that I did 367 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: speak to and engage with or are just disgusted by 368 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: christ Church and their beliefs and what I mean. Yeah, 369 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: and Doug Wilson. There's a cafe that all everyone goes to. 370 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: It's called One World Cafe. And I went there all 371 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: the time. The students were there, all the time, professors 372 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: would go there. It's just like, when you go into 373 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: that establishment, you know you are in your safe and 374 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: then they're like christ Church establishments that are there too. 375 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: And when I walk into those spaces, I'm like, well, 376 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: this does not That's such a good question, Courtney, because 377 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: that's Moscow. It's these two extreme worlds somehow coexisting together 378 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: through it. On top of the tragic murders that took 379 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: lays there. 380 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,239 Speaker 3: Just the dichotomy, it seems fascinating. And you know, I 381 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 3: had brought it up only because I'm really curious of 382 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 3: the potential depending upon if the church goers end up 383 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 3: on the jury what that will mean. 384 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: I do wonder what that means for the future of 385 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: this case and what role they will play. For sure, 386 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: that is, if the case is going to take place 387 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: in Latoky. If it is even we don't know yet. 388 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 389 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 3: a moment. After this conversation, Stephanie and I got further 390 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 3: interested in Doug Wilson's Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. We 391 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: wanted to look into it as a way to understand 392 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: the backdrop of a portion of this community. 393 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: It's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that there is on 394 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: the one side this college town where there are students 395 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,959 Speaker 2: and it's very free thinking in liberal and then on 396 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: the flip of that, there's a really big portion of 397 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: the town that attends this very specific church and their 398 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: teachings are in fact very controversial. So we decided to 399 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: do a deeper dive. So the name of the church 400 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: is Christ Church in Moscow, and it's run by a 401 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: pastor named Doug Wilson, and his writings and his teachings 402 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: really have received a lot of backlash, specifically in the press, 403 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: and it seems though for some good reason, the church's 404 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: teachings and Wilson's leadership has sparked a lot of resistance 405 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: in the town of Moscow. And when doing our research, 406 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 2: it became pretty clear that there have been some really 407 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 2: scary allegations brought up against the church and the pastor 408 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: specifically some sexual allegations and reports of pedophilia. 409 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 3: It's a Calvinist church and the mission, according to its 410 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 3: own website, is to make Moscow quote a Christian town 411 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 3: under God's grace. And this brought national attention to the 412 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 3: town of Moscow just two months before the massacres happened. 413 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 3: Doug Wilson was on meet the press. It had to 414 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: do with the larger idea of the struggle between liberalism 415 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: and Christian nationalism, so this was really a way to 416 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: spotlight it. Since again the whole mission is to turn 417 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 3: the town under God's rule. So in this case Doug 418 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 3: Wilson has come out and said, for example, they would 419 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: be new rules and new laws like no gay marriage, 420 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 3: because it would be presided over by God's rules and 421 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 3: not the governments. 422 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: Their teachings really are that women must be subservient to 423 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 2: their husbands and that essentially this small town should be 424 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 2: run by the church, meaning the laws that are either 425 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: federal laws or even state laws would be dismissed, and 426 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: that the church would have their godly rule over the area. 427 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: And speaking of you know, the controversies that you mentioned. 428 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 3: It's incredibly patriarchal, and not only does Doug Wilson the 429 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 3: founder and pastor of the church, but also there's a 430 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 3: school that goes from kindergarten up through college, and people 431 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 3: have since come out and said they have been groomed 432 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: to be submissive as women, and misogynistic language and teachings 433 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: are pervasive, and some have claimed that this has led 434 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 3: to abusive behavior. 435 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 2: In fact, several members of the church, including former deacon 436 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 2: Alex Lloyd, who pleaded guilty to child pornography charges in 437 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, they face arrests and convictions related to 438 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 2: sex crimes. 439 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 3: And in addition to pedophilia. As you had mentioned, Doug 440 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 3: Wilson wrote a book called Father Hunger, and in this 441 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 3: book specifically, he writes, quote, the sexual act cannot be 442 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 3: made into a egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants, 443 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 3: a woman receives, surrenders and accepts. 444 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: And look how this ties into the massacre. We're not 445 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: making any assertions that anybody related to the church has 446 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: any connection to the crimes themselves. It's just an interesting 447 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: Backdob that we hadn't heard about before and we wanted 448 00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: to explore. 449 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 4: A lot has been written. 450 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: About the fact that this particular church, twenty percent of 451 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: the population of Moscow are church members, and that has 452 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: been reported in the press as interesting or potentially problematic. 453 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: When selecting a jury pool, this particular church essentially grooms 454 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: its members to not believe in law enforcement and to 455 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: be weary of law enforcement. So now you're choosing a 456 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: jury pool, and invariably the numbers and the odds would 457 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 2: be that if one fifth of the population is a 458 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: member of this church, that their teachings would not be 459 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: in alignment with listening to proper forensics and police information 460 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: as reported by first responders or Moscow law enforcement, for example. 461 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 3: And there's a particular incident that happened that really brings 462 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 3: that to bear. So this happened in September of twenty twenty. 463 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 3: It is the absolute height of COVID, and the members 464 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 3: of Christ Church had an event called a Palm Sing 465 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 3: and they gathered in front of Moscow City Hall without 466 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: masks despite mandate. During that event, people were arrested for 467 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 3: non compliance of the mask mandate. So ultimately three members 468 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: of the congregation who were arrested. They went on to 469 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: file a civil lawsuit for this arrest and the town. 470 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 3: Some argue that the town buckled and that instead of 471 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 3: going forward with prosecution, the city settled outside of court 472 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 3: and agreed to pay three hundred thousand dollars to dismiss 473 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: all claims. So that again makes people nervous that what 474 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 3: kind of influence does the church potentially have on officials. 475 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 3: And also back to your point of the jury, the 476 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 3: church itself has said we can't shouldn't be abiding by police. 477 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: They don't tell the truth. Their laws are not our law. 478 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 3: And so how might that in fact change a dry pool? 479 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: We were curious if that was something that happened in 480 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: other places or other churches. And the twenty percent population 481 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: piece of it seemed really high when I first heard it. 482 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: But we have done some comparisons, again, not comparisons on religion. 483 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 4: We're not weighing in on that at all. 484 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 2: Just the idea of a church or someplace where people gather. 485 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: What the influence on the town that would be. Maybe 486 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: it's not super uncommon. For example, top of head, I'm 487 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: thinking of scientology. I know they have a center in 488 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 2: clear Water, Florida. And my understanding is the church itself 489 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: has bought a lot of land in and around that town. Therefore, 490 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: the businesses are also owned by Scientology, and the numbers 491 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: in that regard are pretty extraordinary. Kay, what are the 492 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: stats on the Scientology clear Water? 493 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 5: As of April twenty twenty four, the church Scientology in Clearwater, 494 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 5: Florida owns sixty eight parcels of land worth about one 495 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 5: hundred and sixty eight million dollars, and its presence in 496 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 5: clear Water has had a significant impact on the city, 497 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 5: including property taxes, tourism, downtown revitalization. 498 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: Which is interesting because if a certain church owns a 499 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: lot of the land, I would have to assume that's 500 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: controversial for tax reasons or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 501 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: But in this case, it seems as though the church 502 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: is not buying up shops and locations in and around Moscow. 503 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: It's just that this particular christ Church has many congregants 504 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: that live in the town. Therefore they work in the town, 505 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: and if they work in the town, of course they're 506 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: going to buy homes in the town. But it's not 507 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: as though the christ Church specifically is buying land. But 508 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: it does seem to be this really unique intersection in 509 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: surrounding areas like Troy, for example, another town over. There 510 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: is now some pushback on this because they really do 511 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: feel that these opposing forces are not heading down the 512 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 2: right direction. 513 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 3: And the distinction you make between the church itself owning 514 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: land and the congregants is something that Doug Wilson actually 515 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 3: put a very fine point on because it has been 516 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 3: such a bone of contention. So here's something else that 517 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 3: he posted on his blog. Quote I just mentioned are 518 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 3: people building businesses. This is not something that is controlled 519 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 3: in any way by the church. Our members are an 520 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 3: enterprising bunch. Put another way, I don't own a chunk 521 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 3: of downtown. The only thing I own downtown would be 522 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 3: my truck when I'm there and the books in my office. 523 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 3: So he's really putting a distance between himself and the businesses, 524 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: I think, to help quell the argument that it is 525 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: some sort of a takeover that's shining to be happening. 526 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 4: It seems like that is the main goal. 527 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: And perhaps unlike sign atology, my loose understanding is christ 528 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: Church and its pastor Doug Wilson want to create their 529 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: own laws for the town that do not abide by 530 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: state laws or frankly even federal laws. And that's a 531 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: really unusual mission. And you know, listen, there's these extreme 532 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: cases of pedophilia accusations, sexual abuse accusations, violence against women, 533 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 2: the notion that they are grooming women to be submissive 534 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,719 Speaker 2: to their husbands and to be air quotes receivers. This 535 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 2: is some fundamental stuff that has undertones of The Handmaid's 536 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 2: Tale or one of those scary shows that I literally 537 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 2: can't watch because they are too scary. 538 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: It's funny you should mention Handmaid's Tale because it seems 539 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 3: like Doug Wilson and or whoever's helping with his pr 540 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 3: they really use opposing arguments within their own arguments. So 541 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 3: here's another thing that he posted. What about the Christian 542 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 3: town part. If such a thing were to happen, it 543 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 3: would happen quietly, with no one really noticing it took shape, 544 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 3: and then one day people would just wake up and 545 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 3: realize that the seal of the city had a church 546 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 3: spire at the center of it. See above. We find 547 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 3: dystopic scenarios of the Handmaid's Tale sort of as repulsive 548 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 3: as you do. He then goes on to say what 549 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 3: they have in mind is something akin to an eighteen 550 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 3: ninety two Supreme Court decision that determined the United States 551 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 3: was a Christian nation. And he ends with saying we 552 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: are not looking for a hell hole with Bible verses attached. 553 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 3: He is hearkening back to eighteen ninety two for the 554 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 3: future of Moscow. 555 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 4: That definitely feels like an odd step backward. 556 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 2: I think we should continue to dig into this because 557 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: Doug Wilson as a figure has been quoted as being 558 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 2: very impressive and very charismatic, and that even if you 559 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: do not believe a single thing that he say, that 560 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: he has a very influential way about him. And what 561 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: influence does that have on this case? But again, this 562 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 2: is very uniquely different and kind of an undercurrent that 563 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: people who have visited the area. As we've heard, this 564 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: is really noticeable in the town too. 565 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 3: You can feel it. 566 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: It is a cross section that's happening right now that 567 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 2: isn't going anywhere. It seems like it's only going to 568 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 2: get worse. 569 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 3: More on that next time. For more information on the 570 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 3: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat 571 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 3: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 572 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 573 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 3: by Jeff Trois, music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker 574 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 3: is a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 575 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 576 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.