1
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,240
Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This

2
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:21,439
Speaker 1: is Col's Week in Review with Ryan col Klaan. Here's Cal, Hey,

3
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 1: welcome to another edition of Cal of the Wild. We

4
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: have a special guest this week, Ed Arnett of the

5
00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,280
Speaker 1: Wildlife Society. What we're going to try to attempt to

6
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:40,519
Speaker 1: do here with Ed's precious time, is to give everyone

7
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 1: an idea of what type of work's being done on

8
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,480
Speaker 1: the landscape, on our behalf and behalf of public wildlife

9
00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 1: in this amazing country that we have. And we're going

10
00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 1: to try to kind of look through the very murky

11
00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,200
Speaker 1: crystal ball here of what some of these changes at

12
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 1: the federal level and possibly some changes that you're seeing

13
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 1: at the state level, on what those things are going

14
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: to do conceivably do that will affect your hunting, fishing,

15
00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,920
Speaker 1: and access here. So, Ed, who are you and what

16
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:22,920
Speaker 1: do you do? Hey?

17
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,039
Speaker 2: Cal, Great to see you. I met Arnett. I'm the

18
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 2: chief executive officer of the Wildlife Society. I've been a

19
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,280
Speaker 2: professional biologist going on thirty five years now. Did some

20
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,479
Speaker 2: management biology work on refuge system and for service and

21
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,280
Speaker 2: some work with the private Timber company on research. We

22
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 2: met when I joined in the policy space at the

23
00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,840
Speaker 2: Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, and I took this job about

24
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 2: oh going on four years now, back in November of

25
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, leading the Wildlife Society.

26
00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the toll of the Wildlife Society?

27
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,080
Speaker 2: You bet so? I suspect most of your listeners have

28
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 2: heard of Aldo Leopold. Aldo Leopold is famous for many things,

29
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,520
Speaker 2: but he is the father of modern day wildlife management.

30
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 2: For all practical purposes. He wrote the Game Management Policy

31
00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 2: back in nineteen thirty He was the first professor of

32
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 2: wildlife management, this emerging discipline in nineteen thirty three at

33
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,560
Speaker 2: the University of Wisconsin, and he was one of our

34
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: founders of the Wildlife Society. And the like minded and

35
00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,240
Speaker 2: folks doing similar things that Leopold was doing got together

36
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 2: and we're talking about where are we going to publish

37
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,480
Speaker 2: this new emerging information that's coming out in this emerging discipline.

38
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 2: Do we need our own professional society. At the time,

39
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,000
Speaker 2: they were interacting, as I believe, a working group with

40
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 2: the Ecological Society of America. Long story short, in nineteen

41
00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,399
Speaker 2: thirty six at the very first North American Wildlife Conference,

42
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 2: which was held in Washington, d C. Emerged to this

43
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:11,080
Speaker 2: profession called the Special Wildlife Society of Wildlife Specialists, and

44
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,640
Speaker 2: then the very next year the second North American in

45
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 2: Saint Louis, we changed our name to the Wildlife Society

46
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,280
Speaker 2: and it stuck ever since. And Leopold, being one of

47
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 2: the founders, was also our third president, So a little

48
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 2: bit of history there. But the idea was to create

49
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,959
Speaker 2: a society centered around largely game management at that time,

50
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,760
Speaker 2: but obviously when they put wildlife in the in the title,

51
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 2: they meant all wildlife. So a professional society of biologists, students, scientist, academicians.

52
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:51,640
Speaker 2: We publish three journals, three scientific journals, and a popular

53
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,280
Speaker 2: magazine for our members. Obviously have other communication channels. Now

54
00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 2: in this new age, we basically have had a conference

55
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 2: for the last thirty two years now separate from the

56
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 2: North American, but for the first years from nineteen thirty

57
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,760
Speaker 2: six all the way to nineteen ninety three, we were

58
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 2: in conjunction with the North American and the idea there

59
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,080
Speaker 2: was to get these emerging biologists scientist types together with

60
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 2: the political types that showed up at that typically are

61
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 2: there at the North American Conference, now called the North

62
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,920
Speaker 2: American Wildlife and Natural Resources Conference. We were in conjunction

63
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,159
Speaker 2: for a while, but we just got too big, just

64
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,239
Speaker 2: so much research coming out and so many students wanting

65
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,480
Speaker 2: to present that we've created our own conference and we've

66
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,400
Speaker 2: been doing that since nineteen ninety four. We have a

67
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 2: policy shop, but we also have a number of other

68
00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 2: things with leadership institute, a certification program, lots of things

69
00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 2: that we do for our wildlife professionals. Consider us the

70
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,840
Speaker 2: trade association of wildlife biologists and professionals and students.

71
00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's interesting right that there's the student component

72
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 1: and the folks who also are on the complete opposite

73
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 1: side of the spectrum that have essentially hung up there

74
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 1: in the field careers long ago and exist basically to

75
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: mentor and pass down some historical knowledge.

76
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,599
Speaker 2: Yep. Correct. The nice thing about the wildlife profession is

77
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,360
Speaker 2: scientists get competitive overfunding and that kind of thing at times,

78
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,279
Speaker 2: But by and large, this is a family, a network

79
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,479
Speaker 2: for students where the older generation, the mid career generations

80
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,440
Speaker 2: can help bring on the next generation. And there's not

81
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 2: a ton of competition really, not like you know, lawyers

82
00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 2: and sales you know people and that kind of thing.

83
00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,720
Speaker 2: We're really open and welcoming to our student popular because

84
00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,600
Speaker 2: we see them certainly as the next generation and carrying

85
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 2: on the legacy all the while, you know, bringing in

86
00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 2: new technology, new thoughts, new ideas to the profession, to

87
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,200
Speaker 2: change with societal and you know, global change of habitats

88
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,200
Speaker 2: and such. So's it's a very welcoming environment for our students.

89
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 2: And it's fun being a professional at you know, in

90
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,520
Speaker 2: the stage of my career because I like mentoring students.

91
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 2: I like giving something back. Not that I'm necessarily the

92
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,640
Speaker 2: best role model for impressionable youth, but I try to

93
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 2: share my experiences and some things that I've seen and

94
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 2: some things for them to think about as they develop

95
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 2: in their career.

96
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 1: I think it brings up a good question, and possibly

97
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 1: if folks are actually doing some thinking, might be one

98
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: of the reasons that some of the scientific community has

99
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: been targeted here in the last two months with federal

100
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,359
Speaker 1: funding freezes and layoffs, is why can't you people in

101
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:10,080
Speaker 1: the scientific community just wrap up a study like why

102
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 1: does it take sometimes generations of people in the field

103
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 1: to work on essentially the same question, right, what's the

104
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 1: benefit to the hunter and angler? The American people there.

105
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, the process of science is an interesting one and

106
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 2: and it's you know, of course complex. It can't be

107
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 2: complicated when you're trying to explain it to the public

108
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 2: or to the average sportsman or woman. You know, on

109
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 2: why you have to have so many years of data

110
00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,720
Speaker 2: or continuation of studies. You would think you could put

111
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 2: a put a wrap on on things pretty quickly. But

112
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,600
Speaker 2: ecology is challenging. It's very complex, and you know, I'll

113
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 2: use one example of migration. We've we've known human cultures

114
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 2: have no about migration for eons, right since we started

115
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,880
Speaker 2: hunting animals. They've kind of figured that out that if

116
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 2: migration happens, I can follow these creatures, find pinch points,

117
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 2: be successful in harvest. The science emerged, I think you

118
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 2: are you know, the observations of migration observed or came

119
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 2: through observations of folks. We didn't have radio telemetry back

120
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 2: in the thirties and forties, right, not until the Craig

121
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 2: has pioneered radio telemetry. So the knowledge has just continually

122
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 2: increased with the technology. And so some of these studies

123
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 2: are they're offering up hypotheses that are you know, put

124
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 2: forward by one study and tested by another, and you're

125
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 2: just advancing knowledge. You're you're critically assessing these hypotheses, You're

126
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 2: you're testing things that one science does, you're refuting things

127
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,439
Speaker 2: at times. And with the advance and technology. Now look

128
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,720
Speaker 2: where we're at on migration. I mean, it wasn't really

129
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 2: until you know, Matt Kaufman's shop at the University of

130
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,679
Speaker 2: Wyoming really started telling a great story with data and

131
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:18,120
Speaker 2: maps from these GPS callers that you know, identify stopover habitats,

132
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,960
Speaker 2: and then you started questioning, why are they are they

133
00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,839
Speaker 2: are they stopping there? There's all kinds of complexity in that,

134
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 2: but the idea is to advance the science and ultimately

135
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,360
Speaker 2: the outcome is sustaining you know, populations for sustainable harvest.

136
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,559
Speaker 2: So it's it's long term and complicated, but there are

137
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 2: some studies I think you can gather enough information and

138
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,320
Speaker 2: say okay, I have enough to make a decision. So

139
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 2: it's that's probably a long winded researcher's view of an

140
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,320
Speaker 2: explanation there, But I think you're building on knowledge to

141
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,720
Speaker 2: advance the outcomes for for society and for and for

142
00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,080
Speaker 2: for you know, nature.

143
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,360
Speaker 1: So what what is your off the cuff response when

144
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 1: you hear. You know, critics say, oh, we're just paying

145
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 1: for people to go to school, or we're just paying

146
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:17,400
Speaker 1: for people to stay in school, Like where are benefits

147
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,760
Speaker 1: out of this this system?

148
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 2: The off the cuff would be how how would we

149
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:27,520
Speaker 2: make decisions without information? And science doesn't dictate decisions by

150
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 2: any stretch of the imagination. It informs them because you

151
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,839
Speaker 2: have social, political, and just other things that factor into

152
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,560
Speaker 2: decision making. If you're a manager of a state wildlife

153
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 2: agent and a state wildlife agency, you want to look

154
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,080
Speaker 2: at the data on what you know is going on

155
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 2: with your deer herd, but you also have hunter input,

156
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 2: you have other public input, you have political processes that

157
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,880
Speaker 2: sometimes are good, sometimes not so good, that are factoring

158
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,560
Speaker 2: into these decisions. And you absolutely have to have data.

159
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 2: Plus you know, you know, people that are going to

160
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,120
Speaker 2: school are are going to be the next generation of

161
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 2: the professionals that enter into the state wildlife agencies or

162
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 2: the federal agencies or the private sector to continue this

163
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,240
Speaker 2: knowledge base and advancing science as well as improving on

164
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,400
Speaker 2: our management actions that again lead to sustainable populations of

165
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 2: wildlife and fisheries and and other resources that we all enjoy.

166
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 2: Through the public trust doctrine.

167
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, I do think that the migration corridor is

168
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:42,040
Speaker 1: a heck of an example. You know, there's like if

169
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 1: you look at like the Red River, right the historical

170
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 1: depictions of you know, massive herds of elk, antelope, deer

171
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 1: coming through at a particular time of year. It took

172
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:04,439
Speaker 1: a long time, you know, obviously, like accepting communication limitations,

173
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 1: to understand that not only is there a migration based

174
00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 1: off of snow, but there's also all these other factors

175
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,559
Speaker 1: of migration, you know, feed, forage, shelter, different types of

176
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: thermal cover depending on the species, and then there's a

177
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 1: reverse migration. And it doesn't do us nearly as much

178
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 1: good to protect summer range if we're not protecting winter

179
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 1: range and then providing some sort of easement ability for

180
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 1: those animals to connect summer range to winter range.

181
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, In a former life, I studied big game animals,

182
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 2: so good bid did my master's on bighorn sheep, and

183
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,080
Speaker 2: you know, so I have a little bit of knowledge

184
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 2: of these migrations, and it's just interesting that, like I say,

185
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 2: we've kind of always known this forever, but these new

186
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,560
Speaker 2: the new technology, the new GPS callers gis mapping and

187
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 2: telling a good story is what really made this all

188
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,840
Speaker 2: happen and manifested into a secretarial order. And now we

189
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,079
Speaker 2: see potential legislation coming forward on protecting migrations, and the

190
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,559
Speaker 2: key there is protecting all of the habitats. What you

191
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 2: just laid out there is a holistic view of migration.

192
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 2: You can't have even if you have the greatest winter

193
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,240
Speaker 2: range on the planet, if they can't get to it,

194
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter. Or if those stopover habitats, which

195
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,679
Speaker 2: we now have learned about this has been pretty common

196
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 2: knowledge for migratory birds, waterfowl and songbirds as well, that

197
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,440
Speaker 2: they got to stop over and fuel up. Well, that's

198
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,840
Speaker 2: now manifested in the migration story as well. But you

199
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,079
Speaker 2: pull any one of those pieces out and it's going

200
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,679
Speaker 2: to disrupt the whole the holistic view of how these

201
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 2: animals use the landscape and how we can manage those

202
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,520
Speaker 2: features to maintain those populations for all to enjoy, whether

203
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 2: they're viewing or they're hunting.

204
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, you need that compelling story as

205
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 1: well as some strong data to make any case right.

206
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 1: So it's not that there's necessarily every landowner or business

207
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: or entity on the landscape automatically. AH is going to

208
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 1: trust this idea of animal migration connectivity at face value, right,

209
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 1: They're going to want to know, well, if I'm the issue,

210
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 1: how do you know I'm the issue?

211
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right?

212
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 1: And more importantly, what are my options?

213
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:09,120
Speaker 2: Right? That can actually work in reverse too, because I've

214
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,080
Speaker 2: actually sat in meetings where industry was demanding kind of

215
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 2: the gold standard of data collection to prove that a

216
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:24,240
Speaker 2: migration cord or existed. And my argument is if you're

217
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 2: a game warden that's worked an area or an area

218
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 2: manager or biologist worked the same area for twenty five

219
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 2: thirty years and watched pronghorn, for example, do exactly the

220
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 2: same thing every time winter hits, and they know what

221
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 2: happens when severe winter hits because they're observing these things.

222
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,200
Speaker 2: This is the power of observation. But they don't necessarily

223
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 2: have GPS callers on them to pinpoint everything. My argument

224
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,600
Speaker 2: would be my trained wilie professionals that are telling you

225
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 2: what's going on. That's the power of observation, and best

226
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 2: professional judgment should have some way, some weight and say

227
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 2: in certain decisions when you don't have perfect information, because

228
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 2: we're not going to have that perfect information all the time.

229
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 2: That's why we have WILI professionals, right, So I think

230
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 2: it can work in reverse a little bit when you're

231
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,760
Speaker 2: looking for that data and the fancy maps and that

232
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 2: kind of thing to tell the story. Our professionals know

233
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 2: what's going on. And you think back to you know,

234
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 2: ecological knowledge from indigenous tribes too. They know this stuff too.

235
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,480
Speaker 1: So oh absolutely, as did you know a couple of

236
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:38,280
Speaker 1: these ranchers, yep, wrote it down to my diary because

237
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 1: it's ye.

238
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 2: Came through on on November eighteenth this year, November twentieth

239
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,479
Speaker 2: this next year. Yep. They they are. They are observers

240
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 2: as well, and that power of observation to me is

241
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 2: really important as well as getting you know, the high

242
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 2: tech information and the best data possible. And you know,

243
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 2: kind of back to the white studies. Keep going, Let's

244
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,920
Speaker 2: use that discussion of stopover habitats for example. These are

245
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,760
Speaker 2: areas where when let's just say, a mulear population is

246
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 2: moving from you know, summer range through that transition range

247
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 2: to get to the winter range, they stop. Okay, well,

248
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 2: why well, I think we've kind of figured out some

249
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: of the wire. At least we have some hypotheses around that.

250
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 2: But now now the next question might be, well, why

251
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 2: do they stop there and not some other place? So

252
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,840
Speaker 2: now you've generated a new question as to why. And

253
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 2: it may be the nutritional quality that's available in that

254
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 2: particular spot. It may be the hiding cover aspect during

255
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 2: a hunting season so they can avoid lead poisoning, you

256
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 2: know that kind of thing. There's all so these these

257
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 2: questions just keep building. And that's why, you know, somebody

258
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 2: might say, well, why do we need to keep putting

259
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,479
Speaker 2: callers on and figuring out migration because more questions are

260
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 2: being generated.

261
00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and it brings up I guess that that

262
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 1: is the prime example of why some of these studies

263
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,280
Speaker 1: don't go away is there's always more to learn.

264
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 2: At some point there should be an off ramp probably,

265
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,600
Speaker 2: And it comes down to priorities too, And especially in

266
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 2: this climate where we're seeing budgets cut, reductions, just reduced

267
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: staffing and resource capacity, prioritization is going to have to

268
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 2: really come into play on what what are the top

269
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 2: priority studies and data that we need to make decisions,

270
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 2: And that's going to be an interesting exercise coming forward.

271
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,719
Speaker 2: Conservation has been underfunded for a long time, but now

272
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 2: it's going to get real interesting.

273
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, that's that's a prime question, right is

274
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 1: a I don't think I'm certainly try to be plugged in,

275
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 1: but I am not aware of the vast majority of

276
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,959
Speaker 1: what is going on in the world of research as

277
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 1: it matters to me. There's all sorts of projects out

278
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: there that truly are directly related to the stuff that

279
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 1: I selfishly care about, right, public lands, public wildlife, access

280
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 1: to them, the pursuit of a good time. I'm not

281
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,919
Speaker 1: aware of this stuff. I don't think that the bulk

282
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,639
Speaker 1: of the American public is aware of any of this

283
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 1: stuff and why it matters to them. We just had

284
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,800
Speaker 1: an ecologist on and trying to have an ecologist, you know,

285
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,959
Speaker 1: it's like their jobs to know that range, know that grass,

286
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,479
Speaker 1: know that soil. They're still trying really hard to figure

287
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 1: out how to tell people with no connection to grass.

288
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,120
Speaker 2: Soil, right, why it matters?

289
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 1: Why it matters? Right?

290
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 2: Ye?

291
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 1: And I do think that's that's why we're always in

292
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 1: this fight of being like, oh no, no, no, this

293
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 1: is working on your behalf. So what's your community, the

294
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:25,640
Speaker 1: wildlife society, what's their response right now to justifying the science?

295
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 2: Now it's a great question, and I think we all

296
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 2: have to answer ask ourselves, how did we get here?

297
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got all these shows on on to

298
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 2: whether it's Animal Planet or pick your favorite cable channel

299
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 2: to watch about nature. We try to communicate. I think

300
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: the States all have communications experts and geos certainly do,

301
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: and we try to communicate this. But how did we

302
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 2: get to a place where we still have to explain

303
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 2: why wildlife are important or why healthy rangelands are important?

304
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 2: And you know, to me, every biologist and scientists should

305
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: have their one floor elevator speech pretty handy if someone

306
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 2: asks why should I care about greater prairie chickens? And

307
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 2: I think the minute you start stumbling and mumbling and

308
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 2: then you can't answer the question abruptly, people lose confidence

309
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: in you. And this is a broader era I'd say

310
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: we're in right now where science isn't trusted, it's questioned,

311
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: alternative facts are brought forward, all those kinds of things.

312
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 2: And I don't know that we all know what the

313
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 2: cause of the problem is. But if it doesn't matter

314
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 2: to the average person, they're probably not going to be

315
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 2: supportive and they may think some of the things that

316
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: are happening now with you know, federal federal workforce reductions

317
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 2: and budget reductions at such is a good thing, and

318
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 2: in some cases it probably is. But you know, if

319
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 2: you can't relate why having healthy deer and elk populations

320
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 2: or healthy songbird populations is important, the public is not

321
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 2: going to I'm not going to resonate. So, you know,

322
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: our scientists, what we try to do. I mean, we

323
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 2: obviously publish the science in our journals, and our professionals

324
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,959
Speaker 2: published not just in our journals other places. But what

325
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: we try to do is share some of that through

326
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: our social media channels. We're actually thinking about developing a

327
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: podcast as well, very short and sweet, featuring our members

328
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 2: but explaining what they do in their scientific endeavors. But

329
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 2: everybody has to explain why it matters what happens when

330
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 2: this work doesn't occur, and why should someone in the

331
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: suburbs of Chicago, Orlando, or pick your favorite city care

332
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: And I think we've got to do a better job

333
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 2: about that. And I think some of this is just

334
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: related to the complete disconnect that people have now more

335
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: so than ever before, from nature. They may watch it

336
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 2: on you know, their favorite cable channel, some shows and

337
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: there's some real good ones out there. They may listen

338
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 2: to your podcast or any others that are out there,

339
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 2: but if they don't go out and experience things themselves,

340
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: there there remains that disconnect and understanding that you know,

341
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: to have healthy songbird populations means that your your ecosystems

342
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 2: are probably healthy or healthy enough to sustain these this

343
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 2: biodiversity in these in these landscapes. That translates into clean air,

344
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: clean water, you know, just healthy ecosystems for for for

345
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 2: that all all experience. But they don't really get that

346
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: connection immediately. And you know, this is one of Leopold's

347
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: biggest fears that he wrote about, and the the quote,

348
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: I'll well go ahead.

349
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: It is hard though, right like it?

350
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: Yeah it is.

351
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't need people to do exactly

352
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: what I do, but I do need them to appreciate

353
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 1: the fact that they have that opportunity as well.

354
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: They have the opportunity and there are benefits that they

355
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 2: don't necessarily see or understand on any given day. Yep, exactly, yep.

356
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: The fact that you're holding that glass of water in

357
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: your hand exactly.

358
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that was one of Leopold's greatest fears when

359
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: he wrote about the danger of not owning a farm

360
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: is that people will think that breakfast comes from the

361
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: grocer and heat comes from the furnace. And that has

362
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: manifested today more so than ever before. We're what eighty

363
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: five percent urban now and fifteen percent rule that was

364
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: completely flip flopped obviously back in the seventeen eighteen hundreds.

365
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: And I just gave a talk recently where I show

366
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: that urban rule flipping through time. And you know that

367
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 2: manifestation coupled with you know the complexity of science and

368
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: the complexity of wildlife and fisheries and just range ecology,

369
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: all these things, you've got to be able to explain it.

370
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 2: So you need the right communicators too. And that's uh,

371
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: that's that's just telling a story that people can understand

372
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 2: and appreciate. And not all biologists and scientist types are

373
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 2: good at that. But if they're not good at it,

374
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: the hope is is that their information gets to communicators

375
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: like yourself and others that can get that word out

376
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 2: that this really is important to you. Even though you

377
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 2: don't experience it on any given day, you're you're you're

378
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: experiencing the manifestation of having public lands, wilderness areas that

379
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: you know, provide clean water, clean air, all those things

380
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 2: that people want need. If ask the question does this

381
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: matter to you, I've got to believe everybody's going to say, yeah,

382
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: that matters to make clean air and water pretty important.

383
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they are strategic reserves, right exactly, Like

384
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: we we can't can't get our elves in a spot

385
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: where we're buying clean water from from Canada. Uh right,

386
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: we kind of do in some places, well we might.

387
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: Be able to with a terrify it, right right.

388
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: So yeah, so what to kind of get into the

389
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: forecasting side of things because we don't know what's going on.

390
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: But on on the land side of things, we you know,

391
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: we just saw this statement come out of d o

392
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: I that there will be federally managed lands assessed and

393
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: either sold or transferred for the purpose of low income housing.

394
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: Sorry not low income housing, affordable housing.

395
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: Affordable affordable housing. Yah.

396
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I think what people need to

397
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: understand like that to me is like a hyperbolic statement,

398
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: like it gets me fired up. I was literally so

399
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: pissed I couldn't see straight ed. Based off of a

400
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: lot of my own experiences and biases. The reality, once

401
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: you can kind of shake that stuff out, go for

402
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: a walk outside on big public lands to clear your head,

403
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: is that we have and have had a process in

404
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: place to sell sometimes trade lands that we have determined

405
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: to dispose of because we've determined that they are in

406
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: the best possible interest of the citizens of the United

407
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: States to do so. So I don't want to like

408
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: fly off the handle and say this can't be done,

409
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: because history has shown that, yes, it can be done.

410
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: There's circumstances where I'm sure we can point to that

411
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: say yep, it was very beneficial to do this, But

412
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 1: there is a process, and what we're seeing right now

413
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: is there's also kind of a rollback of some of

414
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: these other processes that go hand in hand with the

415
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: process of identifying Bureau of Land Management, US Fish and

416
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: Wildlife US Forest Service properties to dispose of, to get

417
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: rid of. That really scares me.

418
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when you dive deep into the executive

419
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: orders and start looking at some of the dialogue about

420
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: streamlining some of the bedrock conservation laws that we have,

421
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: and I want to be really clear, there is certainly

422
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: streamlining to be done on any piece of legislation but

423
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: it needs a process, uh, and it can't be driven

424
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: just solely by you know, the and and industries need

425
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: to go move fast. It's got to it's got to

426
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: be more of a thoughtful process, I think are so

427
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: the ducks are lining up for for regulations to become

428
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: easier and less burdensome. That's very clear in some of

429
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: the executive orders we're seeing right now. But you know,

430
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: a burden to one is critical habitat for another. Right.

431
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: So our our take on from the land management and

432
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: science perspective is if if there's not you know, an

433
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: endangered species issue, or a critical habitat for migration, or

434
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: a bird important bird area, or pick your favorite type

435
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: of critical habitat that lies in conjunction with an urban area,

436
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: in proximity to an urban area, it may be worthwhile

437
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: in the greater good of the citizen ry, as you mentioned,

438
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: to swap that out or or or just outright sell it.

439
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: But there needs to be a process for determining the

440
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: value of that habitat in a broader sense. Right. So

441
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: that's where you know, having the data from observations of

442
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: trained professionals or more specific data from GPS colors or

443
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: whatever it is comes in real handy in helping make

444
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: those decisions. Whether that was all factored into decisions that

445
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: have been made in the past, I suspect it was

446
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: at some level, but whether it will be in the

447
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: futures is seemingly questionable.

448
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that that is a great example as

449
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: to why folks in are hunting an angling community really

450
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: do have a lot of skin in the game here.

451
00:30:58,960 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: They absolutely do.

452
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: We can walk around any urban area and point to

453
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: places where we'd be just fine with any sort of building.

454
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: But there's also, in my opinion, scarce few acres out

455
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: there for the American public to go recreate, or the

456
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: American rancher to go graze, or that timber cut and

457
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: family to go out there and still log and make

458
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: a living. When we talk about like keeping these sometimes

459
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: onerous regulations and processes in place, it really should be

460
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: like this, in my mind, is where we need to

461
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: preserve it because or preserve a more streamlined version that

462
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: still checks the boxes. Because like we're literally playing with

463
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: fire here, like once this public land is gone, there

464
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: is no getting it.

465
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: Back, and that's absolutely right.

466
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: We have a growing population, we see growing needs put

467
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: on our natural resources, every single day. I want to

468
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: make darn sure that any land that we give up

469
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: is a minimum well thought out right.

470
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think they're And look, I mean those

471
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: of us that hunt, and especially now with the advent

472
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: of our friends at on X maps and such, there

473
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: are some isolated parcels that can be some of the

474
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: best quality hunting or fishing in the world. But it's

475
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: isolated but there so there's that to consider. But there

476
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: are certain scenarios we're blocking. Habitat makes a lot of sense,

477
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: but it just depends on the objectives and the outcomes

478
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: you're trying and to get out of a particular land

479
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: trade or divesting of some piece of land. But I

480
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: think you hit it on the head. There's got to

481
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: be a process for that, and wildlife and fisheries and

482
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: other natural resource considerations have to be part of it.

483
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: I saw something recently about the notion of who's the

484
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: customer on public lands. I'll just leave it at that.

485
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: The public is the customer. Period. These were set up

486
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: to be our resources, not oil and gas, not timber,

487
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: not mining, not grazing, not hunting and fishing solely, it's

488
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: all resources are held in trust by the federal government

489
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: and state governments. They're held in trust for us, so

490
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: we are the customer. And I have no problem with

491
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: a healthy oil and gas industry. I still like driving

492
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: my truck and getting around quickly and flying on an

493
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: airplane to come and see you guys at a meeting

494
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: somewhere like we didently at PHS and fest. But there's

495
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: got to be that balance in the process. And a

496
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: multiple use mandate is in effect for those public lands,

497
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: so everything has to be considered. But to me, ultimately,

498
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: the public are the customer here and their best interests

499
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: need to be put forward in any of these assessments.

500
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean i'd obviously I very much agree

501
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: with you there, and I hope one of the things

502
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: that this podcast can accomplish is getting those customers to

503
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: speak up, write their representatives through congressional representatives, and let

504
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: them know that this stuff is important. Let them know

505
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: that you are going to be watching this because you

506
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: are invested as a citizen and owner of public land

507
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: and resources in the United States.

508
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 2: Yep. You know. One of my favorite Roosevelt quotes. Theodore

509
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: Roosevelt had many, but the one I like on conservation

510
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 2: is you know, it's as much about wise use as

511
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: it is preservation. And I'm paraphrasing here. I don't have

512
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: the quote right in front of me, but you know,

513
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: what he was saying, basically is conservation is about preservation,

514
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: but also wise use, and that wise use relates to

515
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: what we're kind of talking about here. But Roosevelt did

516
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: not recognize the inappropriate use, and basically stealing from future

517
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 2: generations is what that quote embodies. And I think that's

518
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: that's pretty profound wisdom at a time when our resources

519
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: were not being always used well. And that's why, you know,

520
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: he and others went through the process of preserving some

521
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: lands and setting up reserves, forest reserves and various other things.

522
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: So he was looking out for the long term best interest,

523
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: I think. And now it's our turn to to stewart

524
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: them exactly.

525
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: And it's very clear that if folks don't remind people

526
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: of our duty to future generations, that they can be uh,

527
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, left out without the proverbial pot to piss

528
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: in or a window to throw it out.

529
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 2: Yep. Well, you know, I the other part of why

530
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: is it important to the public? One of the observations

531
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,479
Speaker 2: I've made over the years and now that I teach

532
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: a policy class at Colorado State University, and the first

533
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: couple of modules are all about the history, and I

534
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 2: even focus a good bit on, you know, the the

535
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: North American model and the public trust doctrine. We talk

536
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: about those concepts. I don't think the average American understands

537
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: our history and how we got to this point in

538
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: the first place. And you know, everybody should probably take

539
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: a civic class, of course, but even then you may

540
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: not hear anything about the history of conservation. And I

541
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: don't think that's been been discussed enough. Ken Burns needs

542
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: to do like a documentary on the history of conservation.

543
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: He's done great work on the parks, National parks and

544
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: other components, but a holistic view of just this history

545
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: of what got us here to this stage in life.

546
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: Are at stage in conservation and there's a lot of

547
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: stages along the way that's and I don't think I

548
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 2: don't think the American people fully appreciate that history.

549
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 1: Holy shit, we're going to lose this that somebody should

550
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: do something about it.

551
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: Yep. Well, and to that point, we've been in some

552
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: pretty critical crisis modes throughout history, and you know, obviously

553
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: at the turn of the century around then, you know,

554
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds. It's all started early in the

555
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, this attitude of just infinite resources, nothing to

556
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: worry about, and no laws, no policies, no anything, and

557
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: that all just kind of manifested through these eras of

558
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: time to lead us to where we are today. But

559
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: now it's a hell of a lot more complicated. Right.

560
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 2: We've got three hundred and forty million people in this country.

561
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: Probably I haven't checked the world the population calendar today,

562
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 2: but we're edging close to that, edging closer to breaking

563
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: nine billion in the world. And with changes in climate, changes,

564
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: in habitat, expanded resource needs, all these things, it's our

565
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: job is a lot more complicated to address that holy

566
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: shit moment.

567
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: And so let's jump back. And this is kind of

568
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: where I want to end up on the super positive

569
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: note of endangered species, right. And I think this is

570
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: where folks can get very crossways with the scientific community

571
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: as well, because sometimes the information is not convenient, and

572
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: sometimes the information does not make sense for us the

573
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: way we think about things. So great exampler, right, Exampler

574
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: is ambler Road and one of the like insanely inconvenient

575
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: biological things. Is a caribou, an amazing migratory animal that

576
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: has adapted and developed over millennia to live in muskeg

577
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: bug infected, you know, half water environment just can't figure

578
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: out how to cross a frickin road. The lesser prairie

579
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: chicken doesn't nest within six acres of a vertical structure, right,

580
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: you know, like the facts are sometimes very inconvenient, so

581
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: much so that they just do not make sense to us.

582
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: People, the average person, right, yeah, yeah, Well, and that

583
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: takes us back to the science piece. And that's why

584
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: it's so important to have that information, because how would

585
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: you know there's an impact of a project if you

586
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: didn't have the data to inform it. Whether that might

587
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: be through years of observation by a trained professional or

588
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: an indigenous tribe or a rancher or others that just

589
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 2: watch and know, or you know, fancy scientific technology data,

590
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: if you didn't have it, you wouldn't know that there's

591
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 2: a problem. I worked on wind energy for a long time,

592
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: and nobody thought there was going to be a bat problem.

593
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 2: They thought it was it was all big, you know,

594
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: big birds like eagles flying into turbanes. Start looking the

595
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: more you look, the more you observe, the more you realize,

596
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: holy crap, we got a real problem with certain birds

597
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: and with bats in particular. So without that and that's

598
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: an inconvenient truth.

599
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: And where is TWS on, Like, where's the level of

600
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: concern with potential ESA rollbacks, potential NIPA rollbacks. Are we

601
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: concerned or is TWS concerned that over the next four years,

602
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: like we could see some real impacts on endangered species

603
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: or is there a feeling like Americans got this, We

604
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: know what's right and wrong, spotted out lesser prairie chicken,

605
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: blackfooted ferrets, monarch butterflies. People are aware enough, like we'll

606
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: get through this. Like what's the feeling from TWS.

607
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: Well, we are worried about some of the environmental regulation rollbacks.

608
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: Obviously NEPA's UH in the crosshairs and Endangered Species Act

609
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: has been in the crosshairs for a long long time.

610
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: There's concern, But I think my concern largely relates to

611
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: just the process. I am in the camp that believes

612
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: that all of these pieces of legislation could use a

613
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: thorough review and look for duplicity, look look for inefficiencies.

614
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: All of those kinds of things, no different than what's

615
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: happening to our federal workforce. I mean, we're supportive of

616
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: an audit of any agency. Help my own organization, we

617
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: do audits of our finances, we do audit of our programs,

618
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: because if you're not getting the desired outcomes, you should

619
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: fix that, right. You got to know what's broken first

620
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: and then you should fix it. My concern, and this

621
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: is metaphorical across the board to you know, what I think,

622
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 2: what I see happening with the federal workforce and budgets

623
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 2: with you know, statutes like Endangered Species Act and NEPA.

624
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 2: It's an ax versus scalpel approach. And again I'm in

625
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: the camp that believes that the Endangered Species Act warrants

626
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: some review and some change, some strengthening, some efficiency improvements,

627
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: those kinds of things. But the problem is when you

628
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: open up a statue like that, everybody wants to hang

629
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: their ornament on the Christmas tree and eventually the tree

630
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: falls over with too many ornaments on it or too

631
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 2: much trimming in this case. So there's concern about that.

632
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 2: But a you know, a thorough process of review would

633
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: could yield some improvements to any of these statutes that

634
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: would benefit benefit wildlife, had benefit industry, had benefit benefit

635
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: the people ultimately. But I worry about the process us

636
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 2: and I don't have any great answer for that other

637
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 2: than the fact that what we've seen so far is,

638
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: you know, people that run the blackfooted Farrah program. You

639
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: mentioned that that program that has that is some of

640
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: the top people were eliminated, their positions were terminated, so

641
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: that program is in jeopardy. There's a story from Texas

642
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: where someone who is in charge of the Atwater's Prairie

643
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: chicken program or part of that Atwater's Prairie chicken program,

644
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: is no longer working, but she keeps going to work

645
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: because she believes in the cause. There's a number of

646
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 2: stories like that out there, and I think it gets

647
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: back to our discussion earlier about well, why should I care?

648
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: You know, people should care about these species if their

649
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 2: demise came because of human intervention. I won't say we

650
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: have an obligation, but we certainly have the opportunity to

651
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: preserve those species and bring them back. The idea would

652
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 2: of course be like a bald eagle or a paragrin

653
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 2: falcon example, where we really did bring them from the

654
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: brink of extinction and for those two species, and there

655
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 2: were habitat relationship issues and habitat loss and such, but

656
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: it was largely DDT. We all owed DDT and we

657
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: started seeing some improvements and then with a reintroduction program

658
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: that certainly costs the taxpayers some money, but we brought

659
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: back species from near extinction. And so it's challenging to

660
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: tell that story as to why the condour program or

661
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 2: some of these other other endangered species program means something

662
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 2: to people. But again, it's indicative of a healthy ecosystem

663
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: and a functioning ecosystem. That should be our ultimate goal

664
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: because everybody benefits from that, and when these species are

665
00:45:53,640 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: present and functioning in that ecosystem, it does yield benefits.

666
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: For all absolutely. You know, I think to kind of

667
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: linger on the critical side of ESA and and regulation.

668
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: It's where and you know, this all gets bundled up

669
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: and pinned on the Feds somehow, some way, but it's

670
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: I think there needs to be like a thorough review

671
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: of frivolous litigation. Ye put all of that in one column,

672
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: you know, litigation that's that's purely just there to be

673
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: bothersome rather than or make a point or it's there

674
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: because somebody can make some money off of it, versus

675
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: litigation that uses the essay for the true intended purpose

676
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: of why the Endangered Species Act exists.

677
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: Right, I'll give you a good example on that. I mean, look, NEPA,

678
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: uh let large A large sector of the environmental community,

679
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: or of the the community in general, including biologists, think

680
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: that that's been weaponized. And to some extent it has.

681
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 2: If you didn't put the right eye or cross tea

682
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: in the in the document, there's there's a reason to

683
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: to file a lawsuit and slow down or or eliminate

684
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 2: a project that that certainly wasn't the intent of I

685
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: don't believe nor the Endangered Species Act. I mean to me,

686
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: the Endangered Species Act was a safety net, backstop for

687
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: when you know, other efforts had failed and there there

688
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: needed to be an intervention. But at some point, and

689
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: this is where I agreed wholeheartedly with Governor Matt Mead

690
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: when he was putting forward his initiative for the Western

691
00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: Governors Association in when he was governor Wyoming, that something's

692
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: amiss here. Only twopers I think of the number was

693
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: two percent of the listed species had achieved delisting status.

694
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: So that's a problem. I mean, the goal should be

695
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: to delist everything if we can, but there's a lot

696
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: of factors that work into that, and you know, that

697
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 2: can be exceptionally frustrating. And like I said, I don't

698
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: have all the answers, but there certainly is a need

699
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 2: for the Endangered Species Act, but it also needs to

700
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: be efficient with the ultimate goal of getting species taken

701
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: off the list. And to me, once recovery goals have

702
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: been met, there's a big argument there has been for

703
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 2: quite some time about wolves and grizzly bears, you know,

704
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: and if the target has been met, it's a little

705
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 2: bit disingenuous and people start losing their faith and confidence

706
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 2: in the intent of the Act when you can't seem

707
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 2: to get species delisted. And part of that's because of

708
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 2: the litigation issue. Biologically, if we've met the goal, then

709
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: we should we should start handing management back to the

710
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: states and then monitor what the states do that they

711
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: make mistakes and or have inappropriate management. There's a process

712
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: for countering that as well.

713
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: And that is like I said, it all gets pinned

714
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: back on the Feds. You know. But just like when

715
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: we had the I shouldn't say had But in the

716
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 1: historical times of the robber barons, right, the timber barons,

717
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: the oil barons, the logger kingpins, that would come out,

718
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: I said, timber barons right. Anyway, you know, that was

719
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: private industry that you know, scared people enough to where

720
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: there there was federal action taken to try to regulate

721
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: that industry on public ground. And now we have an

722
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: interesting version of this where we have private industry taking

723
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: advantage of the federal regulation system in such a way

724
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: that it breeds more frustration, more distrust with the federal government,

725
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: especially in communities where you can, like I mean tom

726
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: Minor Basin as the growth lies is like spitting distance

727
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: from where I'm sitting right now. Hey, I can go

728
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: out there today and see grizzly bears. And in most days,

729
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: if I want to go see a grizzly bear, I

730
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: can go see one. And that was not the case,

731
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, in the eighties and and nineties growing up

732
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 1: here in Montana, you know.

733
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, nineties, I was at school at Montana State yep,

734
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: eighty early eighties. I never saw a grizzly there. I

735
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: had to go somewhere else, deep into Yellowstone to see one.

736
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was like if you see a grizzly

737
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: track on the trail, it was like, holy cow, this

738
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: is pretty cool.

739
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 2: That was a big deal. Yeah.

740
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I wish we knew how to work our

741
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: point and click camera as well enough to actually show

742
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 1: it off for how cool it is type of thing,

743
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, And now it's it's very common, very very common,

744
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: if not in every single time occurrence to see bear

745
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: sign uh, if not seeing an actual bear in a

746
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: lot of these areas. So in those communities there is

747
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 1: like a palpable sense of frustration with this stuff never ends.

748
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: What's the point.

749
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 2: Right, right? And you know, back to our position very

750
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 2: specific to grizzlies, we have an issue statement on that,

751
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: but basically we have stated that we endorse the fishing

752
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: wil Life Services proposals to remove grizzly bears from you know,

753
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: at least the greater Yellowstone area that are protected under

754
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: the ESA to you know, as long as those recovery

755
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: targets continue to be met and the demographic rates and

756
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 2: thresholds are maintained, that's the key right there. So this

757
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: ties back to our discussion on science and why it's

758
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 2: so important and monitoring and scientific data collection never really

759
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 2: end because you want to make sure that those demographic

760
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 2: rates are being maintained. And we also endorsed state management plans.

761
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: You know, as long as the you know, the species

762
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: continues to colonize and occupy the suitable habitats under the

763
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: under a broader plan for that species. I think you

764
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: can fill in the blank. For any species, we would

765
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: get behind the wildlife side. He would get behind the

766
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: delisting proposals as long as the goals are met and

767
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: the demographic rates continue to continue to sustain populations. But

768
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: the interesting part of that argument for bears and wolves,

769
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: in particular grizzlies and wolves is that's not always a

770
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: habitat limitation. When we think about deer and elk populations,

771
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 2: we think largely about habitat limitations. Game birds habitat limitations.

772
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: Grizzlies and wolves largely are not habitat limited So there's

773
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: that whole social component that comes into play, right, and

774
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: social acceptance. And you live in that right where you're

775
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: sitting today. You live that in the gall in the

776
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: Greater Yellowstone ecosystem.

777
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: Greater bos Angelus Metropolitan.

778
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 2: Greater bos Angelis Metropolitan. I I you know, so there's

779
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: the argument that there's you know, they the bears should

780
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 2: be other places. You know, they should be expanding much

781
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: further out into and I mean there's even talk of

782
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 2: reintroduction of grizzlies in Colorado. Quiet talk. But you know

783
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 2: they were here, of course, hell they were. They were

784
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: all the way damn near to the Missouri River, back

785
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 2: east across the Great Plains, of course in their historic times.

786
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: But there's a social component to that that has to

787
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: be factored in. That's not the case always with with

788
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: other species like sage grouse. Sage rouse is a pretty

789
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: good example. There's a social component there, but it's just

790
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: different than with a large carnivore and predator.

791
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely well. And where do folks go to stay

792
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: in touch with the Wildlife Society?

793
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: So you can find us at wildlife dot org. Pretty

794
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 2: simple and websites open to the public. Most of our

795
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: information is there. You have to be a member to

796
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: access our journals in the magazine, but it is an

797
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 2: open society, so anybody can join. Never forget. One of

798
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: our colleagues, Randy Neuberg, called me one day and said,

799
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 2: how do I join as a communicator. I said, you

800
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 2: don't have to you just have to join and check

801
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 2: a little box that says you agreed to our code

802
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 2: of ethics. So Grandy became a member because he wanted

803
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: to keep touch in touch with our news and read

804
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 2: our science. So wildlife dot org.

805
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, excellent, excellent, well Ed, thank you so much for

806
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: coming on board today.

807
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 2: That was great.

808
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,919
Speaker 1: We covered some ground, but there's plenty more to cover,

809
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: so we'll get you back on here.

810
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 2: I think there's definitely follow up Podder with all the

811
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: things that are going on, and they're still developing as

812
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 2: we speak.

813
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, sir, all right, Ed, Well, thank you very much,

814
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: And if folks have any questions, as per usual for

815
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 1: Ed or the Wildlife Society at large, please write into

816
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: a s k C A L. That's Askcal at the

817
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 1: Meeater dot com. Let us know what's going on in

818
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: your neck of the woods, and we'll either have Ed

819
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: jump back on to answer those questions or we'll round

820
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: them up and answer him here on the Old Col's

821
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: Weekend Review podcast. Thanks again, we'll talk to you next week.