1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You were listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Recently talking with friends about the type of movies we 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: liked most. My vote was for movies about journalism and newspapers, 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: His Girl Friday, Broadcast News, The Insider, and most of all, 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: all the President's Men. I don't need to watch a 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: movie to see my favorite journalist. I just call my 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: great friend James Harding, the youngest ever editor of The Times, Washington, 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: editor of the Financial Times, and head of BBC News. 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, he found a Tortoise, an online news platform, 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: and his vision for the principle of responsible deep journalism 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: slow news in the age of high speed information overwhelmed. 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: Richard and I were committed supporters from the very first day, 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: and it was then that James and my names for 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: each other changed. I became missus Graham Catherine Graham of 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, and he became Ben as in Ben Bradley, 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: her brave and brilliant editor. James and I speak often 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: about what's happening in the world, our families, what he's writing, 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: where he is going, and a lot more. Today we're 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: in the River Cafe to talk about food and memories. 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: Two friends, a journalist and a cook together. That's what 21 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: I call news, Ben. Why should I say James has 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: chosen a recipe for horse Readish to read today on 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: the podcast Why did you choose horse Readish? 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 2: Well? Before? Can I just tell you my favorite Missus 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: Graham story? Yes, So when I was in Washington, I 26 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: was with the fteam. I ended up meeting this couple. R. W. 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: Apple Junior. It was the Washington buwer chief of the 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 2: New York Times, Johnny Apple him and his wife was 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: Betsy Apple. It's absolutely extraordinary, kind of southern character. And 30 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: she was very good friends with Catherine Graham and they've 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: been friends, she told me at this dinner. They've been 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: friends for about eighty twenty years. And one day Missus 33 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: Graham and everyone in the Washington Post called her Missus Graham. 34 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: She was obviously the steel, the kind of backbone to 35 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: the paper all the way through Watergate. She'd called Betsy 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 2: and said, Betsy, we've been friends for a long time now, 37 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: maybe you'd like to start calling me kay And Betsy 38 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: Apple said, you know that's so lovely of uk. Of 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 2: course I'd be honored. Of course I'll call you k 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 2: and there was a pause and then she said, in public, 41 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: you're probably gonna want to still call me missus Graham. 42 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: And I always thought that was such a kind of 43 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: Washington moment. It was great, nice, right, you know your pa. 44 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: And I went back years later to interview Missus Graham. 45 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: She had this kind of salon, and I interviewed Ben Bradley. 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: I interviewed the two of them. So and Bradley had 47 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 2: so she was in her salon in Washington in Georgetown, 48 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: and he had an office up in the old Post building, 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 2: and by then he was no longer executive editor of 50 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: the paper, but he was still had a place there, 51 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: and he looked exactly like that Jason Robot's character and 52 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: all the President's men. And behind him he had a 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: cork board and he collected on his corkboard corrections and 54 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: errors in newspapers. He cut them out of newspapers and 55 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: he put them on and he read one out to 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: me that was like four hundred words long. It was 57 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: just a layer upon layer of mistake and error and 58 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: neglect and misjudgment. And I remember him talking about it 59 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: as if he was describing a martini. He's said at 60 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 2: the end, now that is a correction with a twist. 61 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: It was his ideal of it. 62 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: Okay, So let's read the recipe. 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: Horse radish sauce. One hundred grams of fresh horse radish 64 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: one tablespoon. Does it even qualify as a recipe? Yeah, 65 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: of course it is okay, good. One tablespoon of red 66 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: wine vinegar, one hundred and fifty milli liters of creme 67 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: fresh salt, and freshly ground pepper. There are only three 68 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: main ingredients in this source, so their quality is important. 69 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: Look for a horse radish route that is firm and clean, 70 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: free of cuts and deep lemishes. The white of the 71 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: flesh of the horse radish, the fresher it is. And 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: for the vinegar, we use vulpire vinegar made on an 73 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: estate in Tuscany. And the crome fresh adds creaminess and 74 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: balance to the sauce. The freshness of this source makes 75 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: all the difference compared to one in a jar. 76 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: There you go, So why have all the recipes thirty 77 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: seven years? Well, the least us thirty seven. Our first 78 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: cookbook was nineteen ninety four. But what you made you 79 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: think about using horse readish as a recipe. 80 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: So I've been lucky to come to the River Cafe, 81 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 2: and then you find yourself looking at this amazing menu 82 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: and every time doing that annoying thing to the brilliant 83 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: people who come and ask you for your order, looking 84 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: at the menu, thinking long and hard about what you're 85 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: going to have, deciding what you're going to have. The 86 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: person arrives, indecision strikes, You're in the grip of it, 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: and then eventually what happens is I'll order the beef 88 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: with the horse radish because of the horse radish, because 89 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: it's kind of creamy and strong and just irresistible. And 90 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: I've got a soft spot for condiments, all of those 91 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: pickles and chimneys and chili based, but horse radish is 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: one that is I'm sure there's a word for ruthie. 93 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, that mixture of something 94 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: that is sweet and sharp and spicy all at the 95 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: same time. And yours is the best in the world, 96 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,559 Speaker 2: the horse radish. And I say this having done the work. 97 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 2: You know, I've really had a look at a lot 98 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: of horse radishes, and this horse, rightig horse is the best. 99 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: There you go, so we will go back to the 100 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: early days, as we could start at the beginning. You 101 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: grew up in a household in North London. 102 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: So on my father's side, my family came from Germany 103 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: with German Jews in thirty six Berlin with family's Hirshevitz. 104 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 2: My grandmother Elsie, my daughter's called Elsie. My grandmother Elsie 105 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 2: was this incredibly strong character, pulled everyone together. The family table, 106 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: the Friday night table, was incredibly important place. The food 107 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: was terrible. She was sure, We completely sure. You can 108 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: ask all members of the family. It's one of those 109 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: family facts, you know, there are very few things that 110 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: all families can agree on, but the fact that granny's 111 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: food was just terrible. She was a big smoker, eighty 112 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 2: to one hundred and twenty a day, silk cut and 113 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: she would cook with the cigarette and the ash would 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: just bend slowly dipping. Would it fall into the boiling 115 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: pot of tongue that she was cooking, Yes, yes it 116 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: would fall. And so you would watch this whole thing. 117 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 3: Do you think she didn't want to cook? 118 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: I don't think she was. 119 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,119 Speaker 3: She probably didn't want well, it sounds like a cracking woman, 120 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: you know. 121 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: Maybe she was an amazing woman. So her story was 122 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: that she wanted to be a journalist, she wanted to 123 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: be a journalist, and actually at home I have her 124 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: old Erica typewriter next to my desk. In thirty three, 125 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: when the Nazis came in, one of the first things 126 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: they did was bar Jews from working in journalism, and 127 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: so she left in thirty six. And she definitely would 128 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: have been one of those journalists who was a great 129 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: eater rather than a great feeder. She was someone who 130 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: cared a lot about ideas and opinions and politics, and 131 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: she had loads of that of her own. But you're right, 132 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: she didn't love the cooking front off. On my mom's side, 133 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: my mother's family were where Jews had gone from Manchester 134 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: to Cape Town. My great grandfather had had tb they 135 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: moved there to South Africa. That side of the family 136 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: were really really lovers of food, of cooking and cakes 137 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: and fruit and my mum, to my great good fortune, 138 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: is an amazing cook. Yeah, I met wonderful cook and 139 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: all of those sweet things you know, as I said, 140 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: chocolate cakes and fruitcakes and sponges, but also chickens and 141 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: casseroles and soups, and that you can even hear in 142 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: my voice that feeling of just being taken care of 143 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: by food. 144 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 3: Your father is a very well known doctor. Tell me 145 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: about him. 146 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: Funny and alive and interested is everything in food. Loves food, 147 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: but I would say loves meals with people even more. 148 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and did he ever cook? Did your male ever 149 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: go into your kitchen or did your father he was. 150 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: I remember, I don't remember much. The moment that I 151 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: remember with my dad around the stove was I slipped 152 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: trying to climb over a barbed wire fence when I 153 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: was I can't remember, like six, seven eight. And I 154 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 2: remember my dad had made us breakfast scrambled eggs every day. 155 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: He made no this was just this was a Saturday morning, 156 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: I think, and I'd gashed my throat. There was a 157 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: cut under my throat and it needed stitches. And I 158 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: remember my dad swashing out the pot from the scrambled eggs, 159 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: boiling the water to sterilize the suitures, and then stitching 160 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: me up on the kitchen table. I remember thinking that's 161 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: quite that's quite a lot of use of the pot 162 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 2: in the morning. Yeah. 163 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So you grew up in. 164 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: A house where food from your grandparents, whether were your 165 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: grandmother is a great cook or not, but there was 166 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: food and discussion and around the table. 167 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: Would you come home from school? How many similars my sister? 168 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: So, my sister and would sit there and would have 169 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 2: supper together, remembery. 170 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 3: A typical dinner in your house, would you? 171 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: Yes? We were talk because I'm sure that now that 172 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: our kids, we've got two thirteen and eleven, and I 173 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: think you're always re remembering, idealizing a version of a 174 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: dinner that may have actually only happened twice in your 175 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: entire teenage years. But the idea of sitting at the 176 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: table eating, And the one thing that is absolutely repeating 177 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: is that my parents were endlessly exhausted and frustrated by 178 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: my table manners, and that turns out to be hereditary. 179 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: So was that painful? 180 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 3: Did they sit at the table and correct you the 181 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: whole thing? Yeah? 182 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: That's I had a French friend and I said, you 183 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: have the most incredible pasture, you sort of say, and 184 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: she said, and I said, that's great. 185 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: How did your parents do it? 186 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: And she said, I have only terrible memories of my 187 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: childhood because every meal I had to sit up straight. 188 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: I ended up with good pasture. But I really don't. 189 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: Like sitting down to dinner anymore. But I can't imagine 190 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: it was that bad. 191 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: It wasn't bad at all. It wasn't bad at all. 192 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: It was just sort of like having the radio on, 193 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: you know. It was that was the noise. And I 194 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: think with my kids it's the same. So. 195 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you left this cocoon of a home 196 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: being for and then you were at Cambridge, Yes, and 197 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: was that a shark? 198 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 2: It was incredible shock just I mean, you know, have 199 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: you ever just driven up there? In part? I remember 200 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 2: standing in front of the college and it looked like 201 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: a palace, you know, it was just an amazing place 202 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: and the But I don't associate it with food. I 203 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: associate it with architecture and light and trees and obviously 204 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: people overwhelming with people and a pub with beer and crisps, 205 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: you know, and a lot of hanging about. But I 206 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 2: don't It's funny, actually, I can't think of time in 207 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: my life where I think less about food. 208 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're not alone. So you were, you 209 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: were writing at that time. 210 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: It was ninety two, so it was a weird time. Actually, 211 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: people looking for work, you know, coming out of university 212 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: wasn't easy, and there was this amaz program to go 213 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: and learn Japanese and I learned, I learned Japanese. They 214 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 2: were there was a rather wonderful, eccentric man who'd run 215 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: a big Japanese firm who'd set up this scholarship program, 216 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: and there were seven of us. We all learned Japanese 217 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: for a year at SOAS and then went out to 218 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: work in Tokyo for a year. And I was just 219 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: absolutely life changing because you'd suddenly seen the world in 220 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 2: a completely different way. The start of it was a 221 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: homestay and there was the first experience of food. 222 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 3: Different domestic Japanese food. 223 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: I don't I don't. While I was at university, I 224 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: did a number of trips which really threw me into 225 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: a world of different food. I'd i'd done my first 226 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: real piece of journalism. I'd gone into Pakistan and into 227 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: southern Afghanistan. I remember eating kind of wobbly white sheet 228 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: fat out of a pile of rice and thinking, Okay, 229 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: this is different. And then I remember arriving in Japan, 230 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: going on this home stay up in Kusher, up in Hokkaido, 231 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: and thinking, okay, this is really a different breakfast we 232 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: are into for Japanese. So they would they would give 233 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: us a thing called NATO, which was a sort of fermented, 234 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: very fermented bean, and you'd have it with rice. It 235 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: was very sticky, it had a really pungent smell to it, 236 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: and front enough, you know, I'm sitting here in your 237 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: cheese rooms. It's the equivalent of taking a Japanese person 238 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 2: to the cheese room, the most painful and unfound and welcome, 239 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: but for breakfast. But then you sort of, you kind 240 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: of nearly got into it, and you sort of were 241 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 2: getting into it to impress your Japanese hosts. But as 242 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: soon as you could do anything like toast, you were 243 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: back for that. So Japan changed the way. 244 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: I ate tell me more about food in Tokyo. So 245 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: you were give us a job to work, so I had. 246 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: So what you did is you went to go and 247 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: learn Japanese in the morning, and then we were all 248 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: placed in a different place of work. I worked in 249 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: the office of a politician, the Chief Cabinet Secretary of Japan, 250 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 2: a guy called Kato Koichi, And I remember the first 251 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: day arriving, and it was one political scandal after another. 252 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: I arrived in my office building and there were police 253 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: fans outside the office building because one of the kingmakers 254 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: of the Japanese political party, the LDP had been found 255 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: to have bars of gold in his desk. Draw that 256 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: it was. It was that, but I spent a year there. 257 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: There was a hierarchy of duties. The most important to 258 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: them was probably photocopying and tea. And then sometimes I 259 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: pretend that it was really not very hard. It was 260 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: pull the boiling water in. But I but I did 261 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: go and do things, some of those things you'd expect. 262 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: The tea, but food was an incredibly important part of 263 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: life in Japan because the days were very, very long. 264 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: The office days went often until sort of eleven midnight. 265 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: You'd have these late night meetings with Japanese journalists. So 266 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: the Chief Cabinet Secretary ran background briefings with in effect, 267 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: the Tokyo political reporting teams, and they would come to 268 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: his flat, and my job was to serve the tea 269 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: and hang up the coats and then just sit and listen. 270 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: And it was an absolutely fascinating window on Japanese politics. 271 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: And then occasionally I would be asked to write a 272 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: short speech in English, which felt very grand. 273 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: So it's an immersion, isn't it. It's a complete immersion. 274 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: It's an emersion, and also it was a very strong 275 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: food and drinking culture in the office. Well, so the 276 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: day would end and then us know, what would happen 277 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: was that we'd leave the office at about eight and 278 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: we would then all get taken out to eat and drink. 279 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: You know, the boss either takebisan or USN would take 280 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: you out, and we'd be taken either to Chinese restaurants 281 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: or Japanese restaurants, and depending who was there. And it's 282 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: such a culture of eating out. You know. Actually, I 283 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: think in the year that I was there, I was 284 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: probably invited into someone else's home to eat once, but 285 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: you'd be invited out to eat all the time. And 286 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 2: you'd eat in these incredible places, and that's where you 287 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: discovered everything. And you'd see these sushi places that fullgoul 288 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, that kind of fish the supposedly so it's 289 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: a puffer fish, and it's famously poisonous if you cut 290 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: it up wrong, but if you cut it up right, 291 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: it's very delicate. All of these incredible treats, but then 292 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: also an enormous amount of drinking beer and Missleworry Witten 293 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: whisky and water, all of that, and that was a 294 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: whole lifestyle. I was twenty two. They couldn't believe it. 295 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: And then you would sort of kind of wheel home, 296 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: you know, because even after the thing finished, you then 297 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 2: go for a few drinks, and then you'd stop at 298 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: home on the way home for a bowl of ramen 299 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: miso ramen. That was the sort of thing that more 300 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: or less kept you from getting a cold and did 301 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: a little bit to help you out with a hangover 302 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: the next. 303 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 3: By that time, it would time, and then you'd be 304 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 3: in the office. 305 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: Not that eight thirty. Yeah, yeah, I mean in the office, 306 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: you know, in charge of the photocopying machine. So I 307 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 2: don't think it was going to. 308 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: Get I don't quite believe that. But so that you're right, 309 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: I'm not I was in charge. 310 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: I sell you. 311 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: But did you travel all of chapas regional food with 312 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: the food in the north different from the food in 313 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: the south, And did you go. 314 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 2: To the mountains killing Yeah, so in the north it 315 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: was up in the island, it was it was much 316 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: more of those kind of soups and noodles. But I 317 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: then came back from Japan, I got a job at 318 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: the ft That was the sort of nineteen ninety four 319 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: ninety six, I went to China, and that was essentially 320 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: three years and a bit of just eating. And then 321 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: that was my only job, finding off working in restaurant. 322 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: Come to think of it, you worked in a restaurant. 323 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: I worked in the village restaurant in Shanghai. I did. 324 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: It was a very interesting thing, thinking back on China 325 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 2: then and China now. The chef in a village restaurant, 326 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: or the owner of the village restaurant. I went to 327 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: her restaurant. She is wonderful and warm and welcoming, and 328 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 2: I said, how does it work? And she took me 329 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 2: into the kitchen at the back, and there was this 330 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: amazing chef kind of just drumming these huge blades, these 331 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: huge chopping knives, and I thought, I would love to 332 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 2: learn how to do that, how just to get those 333 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: wrists moving at that speed. And so they had me 334 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: in and I learned to cook. One thing. I learned 335 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: to cook snake soup. I mean when I say I 336 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: worked in a restaurant, I worked in a restaurant. I 337 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: worked in a restaurant for I would like say, six hours, 338 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 2: but they would probably say forty five minutes. 339 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: Imagine a state bottled olive oil chosen and bottled for 340 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: the River Cafe, arriving at your door every month. Our 341 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: subscription is available for six or twelve months, with each 342 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: oil chosen personally by our head chefs and varying with 343 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: each delivery. It's a perfect way to bring some River 344 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: Cafe flavor into your home or to show someone you 345 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: really care for them with the gift. Visit our website 346 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: shop the Rivercafe dot co dot uk to place your order. 347 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 3: Now do you think food and journalism and food and writing? 348 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: And food is a revelation to both the culture you're in, 349 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: the city you're in, the government that you're in. It 350 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: tells you know, the culture of a country is told 351 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: by the food and the way it's prepared and the 352 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: way it's. 353 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 3: Even going to a market. 354 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: I always say to people and they go to Venice, 355 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: they say where should I go first? Should I go 356 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: to the academy or as I go to a market, 357 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: go to the rialito and see whether they shout, or 358 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: whether they serve, or whether they wrap it up or 359 00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: whether they're don't. 360 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: You think, oh my God, tell me so. My nephew 361 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: Alpha is a chef and he's just got a job 362 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: going to work in Japan. He flies into Tokyo and 363 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: he had the jobs front off. He's going to be 364 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 2: a pizza chef, head chef in a restaurant making pizza 365 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: in the Japanese mountains. He's got one day in Tokyo. 366 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 2: I thought, there's only one thing to go and see 367 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: ski gee the fish market. Yeah, and that's the place 368 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 2: you would want to you'd want to go, I mean, 369 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: and I think you're right. Markets are the place. But 370 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: in China, China and Italy in that sense are the same. 371 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: The conversation is food and the way in which you 372 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 2: you know that. I'm going to spare your listeners my 373 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: terrible Chinese. But it's the very fact that the greeting 374 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: in Chinese was always have you eaten? 375 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: Really? 376 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 2: That was your hello. And the interesting thing was that 377 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: regional food you talked about all the time, all the time, 378 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 2: every way you went to you know, what was what 379 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: you ate in Shinyang was different from what you ate 380 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: in Kunming, what you ate in Shanghai was obviously totally 381 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: different from Beijing, and it meant something incredibly important. And 382 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: today if you meet anyone from any of those places 383 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: and you talk about those foods. I mean, and it 384 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: was also I think I think true about politics, and 385 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: I think I think it's more true than we think 386 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 2: about the way we conceive of our society and our 387 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: politics too. I went to a talk by Chimamundan Goziadice, 388 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: the Nigerian author, but she said something incredible at the 389 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: end of this talk at the Royal Academy, which was 390 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: and there was a whole talk about the origins of 391 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: being a writer, but her very last line, Ruthie was 392 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: and remember, dignity is always as important as food. And 393 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: I thought to myself, if you were to try and 394 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 2: distill a great philosophy around politics, I would probably go 395 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: for dignity is always as important as food, and food 396 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 2: is always as important as dignity. But it's quite a 397 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: just distillation of everything. 398 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: But you were in Afghanistan, You're going to ask two opposite. 399 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: When you're in Afghanistan and Pakistan and you were working 400 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: as a report, did you have a fearful of food? 401 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 3: Were you hungry? Do you have days? 402 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, But that's I mean, that was that that 403 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: happened occasionally, But I wasn't No, I wasn't fearful. 404 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 3: Were you ever in a zone where people were food denied? 405 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 2: Yes, I've been in places and that and that is 406 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: there northern Pakistan, there were huge refugee camps were there. 407 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: I mean actually as a reporter in many places, and 408 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 2: I think that that I remember traveling up through southern 409 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 2: Africa and then flying from there to France, and I 410 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: find that, as everyone does, incredibly difficult. You just can't 411 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: make sense of it. You know, I remember going to 412 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: Gaza the first time. You know that all of those things, 413 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 2: it's really you know, there's nothing you can say about 414 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: it that doesn't sound either kind of glob or simplistic, 415 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: but it's it's really hard to make sense of and 416 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 2: live with. And in China, I think that's the curious thing. 417 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 2: So when I was in China and at mid nineties, 418 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: that whole experience of the Great Leap Forward and the 419 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: famine and hungry ghosts that was within touching distance. People 420 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: had memories of that and it had affected their families 421 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: and their and their parents. And so the period that 422 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: I lived in China was this just incredible explosion of 423 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: excitement and optimism and food. You know, in Shanghai, restaurants 424 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: were opening all the time. People were going out in 425 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: a way that they never had and obviously now that 426 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: then became commonplace. But living in a country, when it 427 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: takes off and the experience people have around food and 428 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: the joy and pleasure of eating and meals together, it's 429 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: an amazing thing to win us. 430 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: And what about the opposite, When you went to Washington. 431 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: And then you were thrust into the world of American food, 432 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: does that stay with you, that experience of when were 433 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: you in Washington. 434 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: I was in Washington in the early two thousands, so 435 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: I was in Washington just after nine to eleven, through 436 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: Bush the Bush Kerry election and into two thousand and five. 437 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: When I think of food in the States, I think 438 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 2: of food almost everywhere but Washington. So I think of 439 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: kind of meatloaf in New Hampshire or going down into 440 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 2: you know, Gumbo and Louisiana, these things that are real. 441 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: But again, the US in that sense is quite a 442 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: lot like China. It also has foods that it's really 443 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: proud of Washington food, those sort of steaks in the 444 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: Capitol Grill, and that sense, I mean that there was 445 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: a particular restaurant called the Capitol Grill. It was dark 446 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 2: and it was furnished like it was a set from 447 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: our Hollywood movie about Washington restaurant, and you know, people 448 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: lobbying and being lobbied. It's not a very it's not 449 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: a very romantic restaurant scene. Mexico, Oh my god, Mexico City. 450 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember that restaurant? We went to Contromar count tomorrow. 451 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: We spent those one of the We sat there. 452 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: For hours, hours and hours. Now, that is one of 453 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 2: the great restaurant cultures in the world. That you go there. 454 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 2: I agree Friday afternoon, arrived two, maybe three, possibly even 455 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: four o'clock in the afternoon and have lunch from four 456 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: till nine. I thought that was amazing. 457 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 3: I love the Mexico say. 458 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: I love the way the Mexicans have a very late 459 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: breakfast and they have lunch at four and then they 460 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: have an apple for dinner. 461 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: And they're all finished at about and they finished at 462 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: And also think what's interesting there was when I was there, 463 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: they also don't ask you what you do. Like the 464 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 2: culture of lunch. If there's a whole culture, like the 465 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: way you talk to people, and it's so it's much 466 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: less transactional and much more social. 467 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: The River Cafe Winter you said, Lunch is now running 468 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: from Monday to Thursday, reserve a booking a www. Rivercafe 469 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: dot co dot uk or give us a call. So Tortoise, 470 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: I would like to talk because do you feel that 471 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: with starting this vision it's a bit like starting a 472 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: family or building a home that you had an idea 473 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: of how you wanted people to eat or to have 474 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: time to eat. 475 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: To have time to eat is really key and I 476 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: think being honest about caring about food. So if there's 477 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: an all night election coming up, we talk a lot 478 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 2: about what are we going to eat? Yeah, you know, 479 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: the whole idea of taught us was how would you 480 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: get away from this torrent of news and information and 481 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: stop and think and try and make sense of what 482 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 2: was happening in the world. And the best way you 483 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: were going to do that was to have a conversation. 484 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: And as we said, some of the best conversations are 485 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: around a table, and the best thing to have on 486 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: the table is food. And so we're very interested in 487 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: food as a way of bringing people together, and sometimes 488 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: it's been really deliberate. So you know, recently we were 489 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: trying to get a better understanding of what's really happening 490 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: in Iran and to try to bring a whole group 491 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: of people, and we're really lucky. You know, a brilliant 492 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 2: Persian chef came and cooked a whole night. It was 493 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 2: absolutely incredible. Tell me, it was just actually fine enough. 494 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: It was Someone had said to me, look, no one 495 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: really covers Iran, which is true. There's a context, there's 496 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: there's Iran coverage because it's very difficult. It's very difficult 497 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: post anyone to Tehran. I tried for a long time 498 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: at the BBC. But also if you think about it, 499 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 2: if you think about what's going on in terms of 500 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,719 Speaker 2: human rights and the politics of Iran, actually the focus 501 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: and the attention paid is minimal. So someone said, let's 502 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: have a conversation about Iran. Let's bring together a whole 503 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 2: bunch of journalists and commentators and people with points of view. 504 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: And then she said, rather wonderfully, wouldn't this be much 505 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: better over a really good Persian dinner? And of course 506 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: it was. And I think there's something interesting, Ruthie, about 507 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 2: news and polarization and food, because I think there's a 508 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: sense among some people that the world is more polarized 509 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: than it really is. I think there's a willingness of 510 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: people to hear each other more than we sometimes acknowledge, 511 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: but you have to bring them together in the right 512 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: way first, and there are certain things, I would say, 513 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: food and music that can really do that. And once 514 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: you've got together around the food and the music, the 515 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: argument about the ideas can be as deep and divided, 516 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: but it's warmer and more human, and so that's part 517 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: of the spirit of it. 518 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, if we're thinking about news, James, and we're here 519 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: to talk about food and family and food and memories 520 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: and food and work, but we're also here to talk 521 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: about food and news. And one of the most exciting 522 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: things that has happened here for me personally as your friend, 523 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: and also as a reader of newspapers, as somebody who 524 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: cares and can't put them down and wants more to read, 525 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: is the idea that you are going to have a 526 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: newspaper the Observer, which is all part of our history. 527 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: Like a lot of food, it's part of our history 528 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: and it's also the future. 529 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: Well, here I'm just witnessing great writers and thinkers and 530 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 2: photographers and lovers of food at work. The Observer is 531 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 2: the world's oldest Sunday newspaper. Founded in seventeen ninety one, 532 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: it's had some of the greatest people ever walked through 533 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: its door. Rachel bar was the first female editor of 534 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: the National newspaper in the eighteen nineties. It sort of 535 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: called out the Versailles Treaty as being a problem waiting 536 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: to happen. George Orwell had it as it was his paper. 537 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: He called it the Enemy of Nonsense. David Astor was 538 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: this inspiring editor of it who used to say that 539 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: journalism is too important and too fun to be left 540 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: a journalist to brought a whole group of people in. 541 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: But if you ask people what they love about The Observer, 542 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: it's food. The reality is that it had whether it 543 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: was Jane Grigson or Katherine Whitehorn, but for the better 544 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: part of thirty years. I think the best writer on 545 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: food and recipes Nigel Slater, and not just the way 546 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: he writes, because he really writes about food or the 547 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: recipes he creates. And you must know him well, Ruthie. 548 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 3: I do. I respect him and I like him. 549 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: He's extraordinary anyway. The Observer cares as much about art 550 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: and food as it does about politics in the world, 551 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: and there are very few. And I remember when I 552 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: started out at the time someone said to me, remember 553 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 2: in the nineteen sixties, Harold Wilson wasn't the story. The 554 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 2: Beatles the story. And if you go back over time 555 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: and you look at the front pages of every paper, 556 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: they all led with Harold Wilson. And what I love 557 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 2: about The Observer is this sense that, no, no, we 558 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 2: realize that where people are arts and food as much, 559 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: if not more than politics and ideas in the world. 560 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 2: And so the hope is that you can take something 561 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: that has for a long time just been a newspaper, 562 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: just in print with its journalism sitting on the website 563 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: of The Guardian, and create something that genuinely has a 564 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: life of its own, and you bring the Observer food. 565 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: It's got less wonderful magazine, the Observer Food monthly, but 566 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: you bring it to life digitally, you bring it to 567 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: life in a bunch of live events, and more people 568 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: and a new generation of people get to have that 569 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: love and respect for the culture of food that I 570 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 2: think has been at the heart of The Observer. 571 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, we excited about that. 572 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: I'm excited about it too. I'm actually even you. 573 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 3: Know why it's exciting as well. 574 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: It's a successible but it changes, you know, you have 575 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: a column that you look to what's new in food, 576 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: what's happening in food, what's somebody cooking and food? 577 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 3: What ingredients are coming in today? 578 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: Which ones are you saying goodbye to the politics of 579 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: food the. 580 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: Way we grow it. 581 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: There's so much, so much time, and you know, without 582 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: having to buy a book, as. 583 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: You say, it's a way into culture, a way really 584 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: into economics. That's why I think that Chimamanda line really 585 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 2: sat with me. Because so many newsrooms know what they're 586 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 2: against right, they're driven by a kind of anger or fear. 587 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: If you can have one that knows what it's for, 588 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: dignity is always as important as food, and food is 589 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: always as important as dignity. You know what you're about 590 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: and you get up every day and go, well, these 591 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: are the things we're seeking out. 592 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: Going for food as comfort if you need and as 593 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: I say, I hope you don't need comfort. You don't 594 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: need a life you need it. But I have a 595 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: pair of socks. Talked about my socks that James Harding 596 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: brought to me. They are definitely giving me the good. 597 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 3: They're really good. 598 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: If we're going to go and join through and have 599 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: lunch and have some comfort, here, is there a food 600 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: that when you do need comfort that you will turn to. 601 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: You can go parently one or parody two. Here. Parently 602 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: one is chicken soup. 603 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 3: That's a good one, and. 604 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: The other is spaghetti bolonnaise, and either of those every day, 605 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: all day long. But my comfort treat is Cituanese food 606 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: mar putauf on a good bowl of white rice and 607 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 2: a cold beer. That is a happy place. 608 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 3: Let's go do that. 609 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership 610 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 2: with Montclair