1
00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,119
Speaker 1: I'm George Severs and this is United States of Kennedy,

2
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 1: a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty.

3
00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,600
Speaker 1: Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story,

4
00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,680
Speaker 1: and today we are talking about Kathleen Kennedy where she

5
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: was known to those close to her, Kick Kennedy. Kick

6
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 1: was born on February twentieth, nineteen twenty, the fourth child

7
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,240
Speaker 1: of Joe and Rose Kennedy, after siblings Joseph Junior, John F. Kennedy,

8
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 1: and Rosemary. The book that Fitzgerald's and the Kennedys describes Joe, Junior,

9
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,040
Speaker 1: Jack and Kathleen as quote the Golden trio who shared

10
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 1: the inestimable advantages of being wealthy, good looking, confident, and intelligent.

11
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: And even within that golden trio, it was no secret

12
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: that Kick was her father's favorite. Kick spent her adolescence

13
00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 1: in London while her father served as the ambassador to

14
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: the United Kingdom. She became an it girl in London

15
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: society circles. She later worked as a journalist in the

16
00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,120
Speaker 1: US before moving back to London and eventually marrying William

17
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,160
Speaker 1: Cavendish or Billy as he was called, a British nobleman

18
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,480
Speaker 1: who was the heir to his father's dukedom. The marriage

19
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 1: caused a lot of family drama, especially with her mother Rose,

20
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,360
Speaker 1: as Billy was, of course not Catholic. A series of

21
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 1: tragedies soon befell Kick. Shortly after her wedding, she lost

22
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,000
Speaker 1: her brother Joe, and then her husband, all within a

23
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 1: few very short months. Two years later, she and her

24
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,680
Speaker 1: new lover, Peter Fitzwilliams, died in a tragic plane crash.

25
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,000
Speaker 1: To talk about Kick's life and legacy, we are joined

26
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: by author and literary critic Paula Byrne, writer of the

27
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,360
Speaker 1: biography Kick, the true story of JFK's sister and the

28
00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 1: heir to Chatsworth. Paula, Welcome to United States of Kennedy.

29
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

30
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 1: And before we begin, I do want to say on

31
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,920
Speaker 1: the record while we're recording that you're a big presence

32
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,080
Speaker 1: in my household because my husband is one of the

33
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,240
Speaker 1: biggest Barbara pim fans in America, and it's something that

34
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,200
Speaker 1: I'm ashamed to say. When we first started dating, I

35
00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: had never even heard of her. I just didn't grow

36
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 1: up reading a lot of literature like that, and so

37
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 1: I remember early on. Your book was one of those

38
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,360
Speaker 1: books that I would find in various different bookcases throughout

39
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 1: the home.

40
00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,639
Speaker 2: Well, I literally love your husband already like that. It's

41
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 2: just the best thing I've ever heard. It's brilliant.

42
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 1: But we are unfortunately not here to talk about Barbara

43
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 1: pim even though I would love to impress him with

44
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,920
Speaker 1: more factoids. We're here to talk about Kick Kennedy. So,

45
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,280
Speaker 1: first of all, you yourself are an Irish Kennedy and

46
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 1: I heard you say that on another interview. What was

47
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: your relationship to the Kennedys just as public figures growing up?

48
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 2: Well, we're not obviously related to the Kennedy's. My grandfather

49
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 2: was called Robert Kennedy and we were an Irish Catholic

50
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 2: family living in the northwest of England, nea Liverpool, and

51
00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 2: we always had two sort of precious items in all household.

52
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 2: I was one of seven children and they were two

53
00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,400
Speaker 2: boss and one was of the Pope and one was

54
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,440
Speaker 2: of JFK. And it's amazing how many other people have

55
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,520
Speaker 2: said exactly the same thing. I thought it was just

56
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:18,559
Speaker 2: my family, but my parents were not given to idolizing anybody, particularly,

57
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,240
Speaker 2: so it was really interesting to me that JFK, the

58
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,280
Speaker 2: first Catholic president, was put on the same pedestal as

59
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 2: the pope, and my parents like, whatever, don't play football,

60
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 2: don't don't knock, don't knock JFK. You just leave him leaving.

61
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,960
Speaker 2: So they sort of really idolized the Kennedy So I

62
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 2: think I always grew up and my parents, my mother

63
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,840
Speaker 2: was she was the Kennedy and there were thirteen children,

64
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,760
Speaker 2: and you know, they look like the Kennedy family, my parents,

65
00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 2: my mother's siblings. They actually they have a lot of personality.

66
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 2: They are great raconteurs, they're really good looking, like they're

67
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,920
Speaker 2: just like Kennedy's and through and through. So I kind

68
00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 2: of felt there was an affinity before I even wrote

69
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,640
Speaker 2: about Kathleen Kennedy. I think I just grew up feeling

70
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 2: that he was somebody that was revered in a family

71
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,080
Speaker 2: that didn't really revere anybody apart from the Pope.

72
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 1: That so interesting and for you know, our predominantly American listeners.

73
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,320
Speaker 1: I know you didn't grow up in Ireland, but can

74
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: you describe the place that the Kennedys hold in the

75
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 1: Irish imagination. I mean, since I've started doing this podcast,

76
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 1: people I know, well you know, travel to Ireland or

77
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,599
Speaker 1: be there on a trip or something, and they will

78
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 1: send me the funniest instances of you know, a framed

79
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 1: photo of JFK and some random pub or they're saying

80
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: a bus. I mean, what is the place of the

81
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,600
Speaker 1: Kennedy's just day to day in Ireland.

82
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 2: Oh, it's honestly huge. It's just huge.

83
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:40,359
Speaker 1: You know.

84
00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 2: We always thought to the Kennedy's as American royalty, and

85
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 2: I think it's mainly because of particularly Catholic families. The

86
00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 2: fact that he was the first Catholic president of the

87
00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 2: United States was just so huge and let alone sort

88
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,120
Speaker 2: of myth of the Kennedy's and all those children, And

89
00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 2: of course I guess for my parents' generation, they rema

90
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,440
Speaker 2: remembered the Kennedy family coming to England in nineteen thirty

91
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,720
Speaker 2: eight to nineteen thirty nine when their father Joe became ambassador,

92
00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 2: and the kind of impact on the British press and

93
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,279
Speaker 2: the Irish press was so huge. On these gorgeous children,

94
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 2: nine of them, with these dazzling smiles and full of personality.

95
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 2: The impact of that family with their dazzle was just

96
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,160
Speaker 2: completely huge. So I feel like and wherever I go

97
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,279
Speaker 2: when I said, oh my mom's a Kennedy, people would

98
00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,520
Speaker 2: be like, oh wow, are you related to the family.

99
00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 2: So I think this honestly, even today, there's massive cudos

100
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,359
Speaker 2: having some connection to that name because it particularly in

101
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,440
Speaker 2: Catholic Irish families, there is such love for the Kennedy family.

102
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, your description of the Kennedy's in England especially, and

103
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,240
Speaker 1: the entire media ecosystem hounding them and then becoming immediately

104
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 1: like the protagon's of any country that they're in. I mean,

105
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,040
Speaker 1: this is different, but it reminds me of My family

106
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 1: is Greek, and when Jackie started spending more time in

107
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 1: Greece because of Onasa's she suddenly became the number one

108
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,919
Speaker 1: celebrity in all Greek people's minds. I mean, they just,

109
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 1: all of them have a way of capturing and then

110
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 1: maintaining people's attention.

111
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. I think because Kennedy's, particularly JFK.

112
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 2: You know, he was such a young, handsome president, and

113
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 2: I think the advent of televisions in people's rooms was

114
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:35,320
Speaker 2: a really important cultural social phenomenon because it brought Kennedy

115
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 2: into everybody's day to day living, so people felt they

116
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 2: knew him even though they didn't know him, and he

117
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 2: was so personable and charismatic, so I think that he

118
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,560
Speaker 2: was just so appealing on all sorts of levels.

119
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 1: I want to get into Kathleen because she was one

120
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,080
Speaker 1: of the sort of three golden children. It was Joe, Junior,

121
00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: Jack and Kathleen were by all counts chose favorites, so

122
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 1: to speak. But I had not really read too much

123
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 1: about Kathleen before this, and I guess in my mind

124
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 1: based on things I had read, she was almost, if anything,

125
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,240
Speaker 1: just a symbol, and that she was emblematic of this

126
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,400
Speaker 1: idea of the Kennedy curse. And obviously that is unfair

127
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,320
Speaker 1: to make her into adjust that, but there is something

128
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 1: so just deeply tragic about the number of terrible tragedies

129
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: that happened to her just within the span of five years.

130
00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,880
Speaker 1: So if anything, my idea of her was almost as

131
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: a passive figure that all these things happened to, rather

132
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: than an active person with agency and with her own

133
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 1: ambitions and interests and daily dramas. And there was very

134
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,880
Speaker 1: little written specifically about her before your book, So what

135
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,680
Speaker 1: was it that drew you to her as a historical figure?

136
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, just two things to follow up on that.

137
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 2: She absolutely was not a passive person. And it's so

138
00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 2: interesting that was your perception of it, because that couldn't

139
00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,600
Speaker 2: be further from the truth, because in defying her family

140
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 2: into eyeing her faith and defying her country, she was

141
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,800
Speaker 2: an absolute feminist in doing what she wanted to do.

142
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 2: So to me, she was a very active figure in

143
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 2: a family where the power of family, the power of

144
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 2: boys in that family was so all pervading, and so

145
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 2: for a child to defy, particularly somebody like Rose Kennedy

146
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 2: the matriarch, was really extraordinary. So that's the first thing

147
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 2: I would say. And you're completely right about the tragedy.

148
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 2: But because the first tragedy was Joe Junior, of course

149
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 2: before Kick herself had her tragedies, so she was almost

150
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,600
Speaker 2: like the second. But you're completely right about the grief

151
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 2: that happened in that sort of relatively short space of

152
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 2: time and what drew me to her. So I've always

153
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 2: done biographies were I used to think of myself as

154
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 2: a footnote queen. So I would write a book and

155
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,840
Speaker 2: then find a footnote about somebody and I'd be like, Oh,

156
00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 2: who's that. I'd written a book about even war and

157
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,800
Speaker 2: homosexuality and Bright had re visited and because he is

158
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,760
Speaker 2: experiences with boys at Oxford, and it was a source

159
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,360
Speaker 2: of revisionist biography of even War because I sort of

160
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,959
Speaker 2: upturned many of the cliches about him and that sort

161
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 2: of do that anyway. Anyway, in the course of that book,

162
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 2: I discovered him writing in his diary Kick saw Kick

163
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,840
Speaker 2: sat by Kick dead Kick This Kick then got kick

164
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,440
Speaker 2: who and earth is Kick? So I looked at Roper,

165
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is Kathleen Kennedy. This is JFK's sister.

166
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 2: Why is he mentioning Kick Kennedy? Why are they friends?

167
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,120
Speaker 2: This is really bizarre evel. When War was not known

168
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,560
Speaker 2: to be kind to people. He was serbic, he was intelligent,

169
00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 2: he couldn't bear most people, and he obviously was incredibly

170
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 2: fond of this Kick person. So I did my research

171
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 2: and then thought, wow, okay, this woman has been whitewashed

172
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,800
Speaker 2: out of the family history. This woman's story has not

173
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,320
Speaker 2: been told. So this is my shtick. This is what

174
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,679
Speaker 2: I do. I find these voices, I've lost voices, and

175
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 2: I returned them to their stories. And so to me

176
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,439
Speaker 2: it was like, I've got to do this book. I've

177
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,240
Speaker 2: got to write so also, I wanted to write about

178
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 2: the young Kennedy's being in Britain. Office on British. I

179
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in America, but it felt

180
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 2: very clear that it was Kicks time.

181
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. We did an episode on Rosemary Kennedy

182
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,520
Speaker 1: and it was obviously a tragic story in a completely

183
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,199
Speaker 1: different way, but it was a similar story of that.

184
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,200
Speaker 1: Often the women in the Kennedy family get written out

185
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,719
Speaker 1: of the mainstream telling of the family story and then

186
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 1: it takes someone going back into the archives later on

187
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 1: to dig out a coherent biography. But to that end,

188
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,680
Speaker 1: what was the research process like? Considering there was so

189
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,600
Speaker 1: little written specifically about her, were there any sources that

190
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 1: were especially valuable? Oh?

191
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the Kennedy archives. So I obviously spent

192
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 2: lots of time at the library in Boston, and it

193
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,000
Speaker 2: was actually incredibly overwhelming as a biographer, because you know,

194
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 2: I always say my two most difficult biographies was one

195
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 2: I wrote a biography of a biracial girl called Dido

196
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,360
Speaker 2: Bell who was raised in a household at Lord Mansfield's

197
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 2: house in London. And when I was asked to do

198
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 2: that biogray because a film is being made about it.

199
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,040
Speaker 2: I said, there are only eight known facts. What am

200
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,200
Speaker 2: I going to do? And they were like, no, you'll

201
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,360
Speaker 2: do it. But Kennedy was the opposite. Kick was the

202
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:19,199
Speaker 2: opposite Rose. Kennedy's archive alone has something like eight million

203
00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,959
Speaker 2: artifacts in it. It's so overwhelming. There are letters by

204
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 2: Kick two Kick, thousands of photographs, all sorts of letters.

205
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,480
Speaker 2: This for me, was quite a British story because obviously

206
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,560
Speaker 2: she married into one of the most aristocratic families in England,

207
00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 2: and she was scooped up by these aristocratic county country

208
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 2: families and they wrote about her. So there was no

209
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,960
Speaker 2: short of information, trust me, absolutely none at all. If anything,

210
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,760
Speaker 2: there was a lot of information. So having to sieve

211
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,000
Speaker 2: through all of that was quite daunting in a different

212
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,240
Speaker 2: way to Bell, where I had so little information.

213
00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, so let's get into it. Then. So she

214
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,280
Speaker 1: as a teen, she moved to London because her father

215
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 1: became the ambassador, and then what was her adolescence like

216
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,600
Speaker 1: in London as a kind of as an American in

217
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,480
Speaker 1: London and also as basically a I don't want to

218
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,880
Speaker 1: say a celebrity, but someone who stuck out as part

219
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 1: of this kind of American royal family.

220
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 2: I mean, she was a celebrity really, and she was

221
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 2: probably one of the most famous sort of it girls

222
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,600
Speaker 2: on the planet. And you know, she was very young,

223
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,840
Speaker 2: she was in her teens. She arrived with her siblings,

224
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 2: and the press really took to her because she was

225
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 2: so lively and very photogenic. She was beautifully dressed, like

226
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 2: all the Kennedys were, but the women were really well dressed,

227
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 2: dazzling smile. And the interesting thing about Kick and while

228
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 2: the press so right from the start, the press latched

229
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 2: onto her. Okay, she's the star, she's the celebrity, she's

230
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,400
Speaker 2: the one everybody wants a piece of. Nobody gave a

231
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 2: second look to JFK. Not at all. He was ill.

232
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,440
Speaker 2: He was coming later on from the rest of the family.

233
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 2: He was very intellectually, so studious, he was going to

234
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,679
Speaker 2: go to the London School of Economics. Nobody cared. It

235
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 2: was Kick, Kick, Kick. Everybody was interested in Kick. So

236
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 2: again for the biographer, lots of stories in the newspapers

237
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 2: about where she's going, what party she's going to. And

238
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,679
Speaker 2: the interesting thing about Kick was how long before JFK

239
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,559
Speaker 2: and indeed Joe, her brother, even went into these circles.

240
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 2: She was the one that was fated by this group

241
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:33,840
Speaker 2: of very sophisticated aristocratic families. And that's very hard if

242
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 2: you're not British, and if you're American, you don't get in.

243
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,440
Speaker 2: It's a closed shop. And she was more than accepted

244
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,439
Speaker 2: into and it was through her that JFK and Joe

245
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,720
Speaker 2: and all the others were able to gain footage into

246
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 2: these aristocratic homes. So she was the full runner.

247
00:13:52,480 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay with us,

248
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: and we're back with United States of Kennedy. I want

249
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: to sort of get into the social ecosystem at that time,

250
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: because I do think it surely will sound very foreign

251
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,040
Speaker 1: to I mean foreign to anyone living in twenty twenty five,

252
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 1: but also especially an American living in twenty twenty five.

253
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 1: So she was a debutante. She was in these sort

254
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 1: of society circles. Can you describe just day to day

255
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 1: what that was like, What were these events like that

256
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 1: she was welcomed into. What did that mean? What did

257
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 1: she get out of it? How do you know if

258
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: someone is climbing the ranks, Well.

259
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,400
Speaker 2: It's difficult if you're not British to enter into that

260
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 2: the upper echelons of British society, particularly in nineteen thirty eight.

261
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 2: What she had on her side as her father was

262
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,800
Speaker 2: the ambassador, so they lived in this incredible house at

263
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 2: Saint James's, so they instantly had that cachet and they

264
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 2: had that sort of invitation. But even so the British

265
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 2: aristoxy can close ranks. If your face doesn't fit and

266
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,880
Speaker 2: they don't like you, or they find you vulgar or

267
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 2: chewing gom and they'd think, oh, you're a ghastly American,

268
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 2: they will not let you in. And that just didn't

269
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 2: happen because everybody fell in love with her, So what

270
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: did that look like? So she gets presented at court,

271
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 2: she learns how to curtsey, she learns how to dance.

272
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,480
Speaker 2: She has the most beautiful dress imaginable with Rosemary, and

273
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,120
Speaker 2: it's very frightening for Kick because she has to look

274
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 2: after Rosemary, who we know about Rosemary and her troubles,

275
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 2: and Kick was incredibly patient and very loving towards Rosemary.

276
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 2: But there was a lot of pressure because to all

277
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 2: intents and purposes, Kick was the eldest girl because of

278
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 2: Rosy's incapacitation, so she was the one leading the way,

279
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 2: and very quickly she became in she was already endearing,

280
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,040
Speaker 2: and she was invited to an English country house and

281
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 2: she was put through a test. People were being quite

282
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 2: mean to her because in English country houses you put

283
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 2: your shoes out to get cleaned every night, and she

284
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 2: didn't know some of those rules. And so she did

285
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,960
Speaker 2: put all their shoes out, and the girls played a

286
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: trick and they stole all the left hand shoes the

287
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 2: right hand shoes I can't remember, so she couldn't wear shoes,

288
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 2: and she does didn't care. She just wore a left

289
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 2: shoe and a right shoe and she went downstairs and

290
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 2: they all said, why are you hobbling and she said, oh,

291
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 2: Robert broke my leg before supper. And she was instantly

292
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 2: accepted because she just charmed everybody. Not easy to do.

293
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 2: And from really that point on, after she passed that test,

294
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 2: the horrible snobby English way of are you one of

295
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 2: us even though you're not, she passed the test, and

296
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 2: then what that then looked like was this English season.

297
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 2: She was welcome to everything, so from horse racing to balls,

298
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,280
Speaker 2: to society events, to the opera house to English country

299
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,160
Speaker 2: houses where politics are discussed. I mean, I argue in

300
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 2: my book that I think think JFK learned about English

301
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,680
Speaker 2: country house politics because of Kick. If Kick had the entree,

302
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 2: he did not have the entree. It was her. She

303
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,439
Speaker 2: had the entree. And it was through him that she

304
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 2: met Churchill's Winston Churchill's circle, his son. It was through Kick,

305
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 2: so she was the one who was invited. And because

306
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 2: I'd say, she was so beautiful. She always with these

307
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 2: amazing hats, she had the best shoes, she had the

308
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 2: best clothes, she had the best jewelry. So of course

309
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 2: she's just like catnip to the press. So they're commenting on, Oh,

310
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 2: she's at the Racist, She's at Royal oscar Ascot, She's

311
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,240
Speaker 2: at Goodwood, She's at this event, she's at that event,

312
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 2: she's at this ball. Oh she's at that ball. And

313
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 2: Nancy Astor took her under her wing, who was at

314
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,400
Speaker 2: the doyen of English aristocratic society. So she just had

315
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,240
Speaker 2: this ability, like all the Kennedys do, I suppose, to

316
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 2: completely charm people. So it was really interesting for her,

317
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,160
Speaker 2: easy for her to be courted, and all the men

318
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 2: fell in love with that, and the girls, these aristocratic,

319
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 2: sort of beautiful, slend willowy beauties, were furious because he said,

320
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,920
Speaker 2: kicks stealing all our men. They loved her, but they

321
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 2: were like, she's stealing on and she says, and the

322
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,640
Speaker 2: girls like she's sure. And her brother said, oh, she's

323
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 2: got a short neck and she's got fat ankles, and

324
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 2: you know, and she's not going to be anything like

325
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 2: these willowy, beautiful, aristocratic blondes. And she was stealing all

326
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,960
Speaker 2: the men. All the men were in love he everyone

327
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 2: fell in love with her. She just had incredible chrisma

328
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,680
Speaker 2: and also she was extremely down to earth, so whenever

329
00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 2: English people tried to be snobby, she would just not

330
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:31,239
Speaker 2: rise to it.

331
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 1: So I want to, you know, I want to go

332
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: into her relationship with men, because that is if there's

333
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,640
Speaker 1: one thing I did know about her, as you alluded

334
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 1: to earlier, the fallout with her family based on the

335
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: men that she decided to date slash Mary, But you

336
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 1: mentioned her relationship to JFK. And I want to go

337
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 1: into that a little bit more. They were very close.

338
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you describe them as almost twin like they

339
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 1: really gravitated towards one another. And you say Jack wanted

340
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 1: to be an intellectual, He did not want to be

341
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: a politician. They talked about writing and literature and politics,

342
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 1: which I think also was something else she brought to

343
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: the table in these society environments where she was one

344
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 1: of the only women. As you're saying, that's talking about

345
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: politics and talking about current events. But I wonder if

346
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about her relationship to

347
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 1: Jack and what they had in common. Something that struck

348
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: me was there was this quote here, and of course

349
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: it's from a different book, but at some point Kick says,

350
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,400
Speaker 1: the thing about me you oughtn't know is that I'm,

351
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 1: like Jack, incapable of deep affection, and that's kind of

352
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 1: sad self. Knowledge about not being able to fully be

353
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,439
Speaker 1: in touch with one's emotions was something that they bonded over.

354
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,680
Speaker 2: I think. So I think that's a really great quote

355
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 2: that you picked up there. But also going back to

356
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 2: the twin thing, they were really they were almost like

357
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,199
Speaker 2: people described them as a sort of DESSI and you know,

358
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of screwball comedy, because they were

359
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,160
Speaker 2: very witty and they were very eluciable, they were very

360
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 2: on it, and she stood off for herself. She stood

361
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,440
Speaker 2: up to him. She was as tough as the boys.

362
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 2: She would outrun them in races. She was really sporty.

363
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,880
Speaker 2: She held everyone because you have to hold her own

364
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 2: view Kennedy, obviously you do. And she was bright and

365
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 2: she was sassy, and they had quite a teasing relationship,

366
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 2: but they were extremely close and as it almost like twins.

367
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 2: And I think that quote is really interesting because it

368
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 2: hints a deep self knowledge that really it was hard

369
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 2: to be a Kennedy. And Rose was not an affectionate mother.

370
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 2: She was a very cold mother. Their father was deeply affectionate,

371
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 2: and he used to spend time with each children most nights.

372
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 2: He would bring them into the bedroom and talk to them.

373
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 2: But also there was this tension in the family because

374
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 2: obviously Joe was deeply unfaithful to Rose. So family secrets

375
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: were there, and the kids knew about their father's affairs

376
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: and they joked about it to one in other but

377
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: that conceal hurt and damage. So in terms of that

378
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 2: family system, it was deeply dysfunctional. And I think when

379
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 2: Kick talks about that, it was that sense of growing

380
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 2: up in a very dysfunctional marriage and what that meant

381
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 2: for the children, and the sexual double standard. You know

382
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 2: that the boys, you know, Joe would leave out pornographic

383
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: magazines for the boys, but the girls are meant to

384
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 2: be virgins until they get married. So you've got this

385
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 2: sexual hypocrisy and the sexual double standard, and that's very difficult.

386
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 2: I actually think Kick was deeply capable of affection and deeperfection,

387
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: and she showed that when you know, she married Billy,

388
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 2: so I don't think that was true, but I think

389
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 2: it also hints at this sense of dysfunction.

390
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 1: So she meets Billy when she's very young in London, correct,

391
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: and then she moves back to America, but then eventually

392
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: goes back to England, and despite the fact that he

393
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: is potentially engaged to a different woman Sally Norton at

394
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 1: the time, goes back and then they eventually do end

395
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: up getting married. But can you describe, you know, for

396
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: any Americans that might not be proficient in the ins

397
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: and outs of British nobility, who Billy was and what

398
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: his place was in England.

399
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to overemphasize just how he was

400
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 2: literally the most eligible bachelor in the whole of Britain,

401
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 2: and I would say above royalty, even because you know,

402
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: his father was the owner of Chatsworth and numerous other

403
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: stately homes. He was rich beyond wildest dreams. He had

404
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: an aristocratic pedigree going back centuries, and all the women

405
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 2: wanted to bag him. They all were in love with

406
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: Billy Harsingden. And it's so extraordinary that when and you

407
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 2: mentioned that he met Kick and then she went back

408
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: to American came back from the minute Billy, the most

409
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 2: eligible bachelor in the whole of England, met her. He

410
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: said she is the only one for me. And although

411
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 2: he did get engaged, it was only because he didn't

412
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 2: think he could ever get her. And so when she

413
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 2: came back, he dropped everything to be with her. But

414
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 2: I mean, Chatsworth is for people who watched Pride and

415
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: Prejudice in nineteen ninety five. You know, Chatsworth is at Pemberley.

416
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: It's this enormous, stately home in Derbyshire which is completely

417
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: beautiful and as I say, the most aristocratic family. He's

418
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 2: a duke, and Kick Burley sort of knows what this

419
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 2: is and she makes a joke with Billy and says,

420
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: duky Wookie, and she's sort of teasing him, and she says, oh,

421
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: you don't really believe in all that? Do you need

422
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: to really take that serious, and he says, all work.

423
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: You know, I do take that really seriously because she

424
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: didn't really understand how the aristocracy worked. So it's almost

425
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: hard to overemphasize just how important Billy was. And the

426
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 2: irony of that was the Kennedy family thought he's the

427
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: worst man in the world to marry. Not that he's

428
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 2: the richest man in the well in England. He's the

429
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: most aristocratic man. He's completely devoted to her. He's the

430
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: eldest son, he's going to inherit everything. He's a duke

431
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 2: and you know they're on that many dukes in England.

432
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: He's incredibly aristocratic. And yet for Rose it was the

433
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: worst match because he's not Catholic. So you can imagine,

434
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: I mean, talk about the family discord as a result

435
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: of this. But he was extremely eligible, handsome, tall, and

436
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 2: as I said, he completely fell in love with her.

437
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: He could have had any girl was his for the

438
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 2: picking and he just said it's kick, that's the woman

439
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: and he fell in love with at first sight and

440
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: said she's the one for me. It's an extraordinary love story.

441
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: Well it is, especially because it really seemed like when

442
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: she moved back to America and this was during the

443
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: beginning of the war. I believe she moved back to

444
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: America in what like thirty.

445
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: Nine Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, s't you dine?

446
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: And so she leaves London, he becomes engaged to someone else.

447
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: Clearly it seems like the love story is doomed. So

448
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 1: it is especially very Rombo and Juliet that they end

449
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: up miraculously through her efforts to find a job placement

450
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: back in London in a few years. And it is

451
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: a real sort of tortured love story. But in terms

452
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: of the family's disapproval, because this is something that is

453
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: such a huge part of Kick's life, is that eventually

454
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: the family almost disowns her in a way. Joe is

455
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: the only Kennedy I think at her funeral after she dies.

456
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about Rose's relationship to Kick,

457
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: because it's interesting. On the one hand, as you're saying,

458
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 1: Rose was very has this reputation of being very cold

459
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: and very concerned with being proper and having her family

460
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: be this emblem of polite American society and everything. On

461
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: the other hand, as you have talked about in the past,

462
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: Rose on a literal level, believes that if Kick marries

463
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: someone who is in the Catholic she won't go to heaven.

464
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: So of course if she actually on a literal level,

465
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: beloe believe that it is the kind and loving thing

466
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: to do to try to prevent it.

467
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: Sure, absolutely, for sure. And you know, I've never taken

468
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: a particularly since Sorry's attitude towards Rose or Joe, because

469
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: I think actually they were pretty in many ways good

470
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: parents and in many ways terrible parents, like most of us.

471
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 2: But I think for Rose, although she liked Billy and

472
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: she could not have failed to have fell flattered that

473
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: the Duke of Evan's son, who was going to inherit

474
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: all of this, would have chose her daughter. But it

475
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: was the religion. In Rose's defense, and I make no

476
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: bones about this. In my biography of Kick, Rose says,

477
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 2: what will all the other Catholic girls do if I

478
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: sanction this? And if I say this is completely fine,

479
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: people will say, well, Kick Kennedy married out of their faith.

480
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 2: And it's hard to describe that to a modern day

481
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: audience about just how huge that intermarriage was, but it

482
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: was a hugely important thing given Rosemary's problems. She was

483
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 2: the first Kennedy girl and Rose envisited the big wedding,

484
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: the Catholic wedding. It was deeply important to all of them.

485
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: And Rose was so distraught when Kick did marry Billy

486
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: that she had a nervous collapse and she had to

487
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: go into hospital. She was completely broken by this because

488
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: she really felt that she'd let the side down. And again,

489
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: talking to a modern autist, I'm saying, but this was

490
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: a really huge thing. She loved Kicks, she wanted Kick

491
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: to be happy, but it was just and Billy himself

492
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: actually said this is a Romeo and Juliet situation. That

493
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: he actually used that metaphor and said it's like that.

494
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: He said, it's exactly like that. And they were trying

495
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: to find all different ways, and Rose, she was They

496
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: would saying, okay, what if we marry and what if

497
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: the girls we brought off as cap They tried everything.

498
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: We could bring the boys up as Anglicans, we could

499
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: bring the girls, and Rose is part of trying to

500
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: find a solution. I don't want to demonize Rose, but

501
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: there wasn't a solution. There couldn't be a solution. And

502
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: they talked to various priests in very high places, archbishops,

503
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: all sorts of senior clergyman and a solution couldn't be found.

504
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: In the end, Kick said, I'm going to put the

505
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: man I loved before. And it was during the war.

506
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: She was not sure whether he was going to be

507
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: killed during the war, and she decided to defy her family,

508
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: and that was a huge thing to do. But her

509
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: father supported her, and her father was still sent loving

510
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: and all. And the children, you know, the older children

511
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: supported her and didn't take a censorious view. The younger

512
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: children were disappointed, but they didn't really understand. So it

513
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: was just a really tricky situation. But then as soon

514
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: as she married, Billy Rose came around and said, I'll

515
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: welcome in with the open arms. It's done now. She

516
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: said she would do everything to stop it that once

517
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: it was done, she was loving and so for forgiveness

518
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: and reconciliation and did.

519
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: The disapproval initially at least go both ways. I mean,

520
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: the Kennedy family of course did not want their daughter

521
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: marrying a non Catholic. But what about you know, the

522
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: aristocratic British family, as you're saying, the most eligible bachelor

523
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: in all of England, did they care or did they

524
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: disapprove of him choosing to marry an American or a Catholic.

525
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: No, they absolutely did not. They absolutely loved her and

526
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: they fell in love a Kick, as did everybody, both

527
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: Billy's parents did. But his mother, who was very very

528
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: close to Billy, just knew how happy Billy was with Kick,

529
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: and she adored her, and they adored all of the Kennedy's,

530
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: And to this day, the Dukes of Devonshire are still

531
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: in touch and friendly with the Kennedy's. There was an

532
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: alliance there and it has never broken. There was no

533
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: sense of being snobbish, There's no sense of she's Catholic,

534
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: there was no sense of her being American. They were

535
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: absolutely enchanted by her.

536
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after

537
00:29:49,160 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: this break, and we're back with United States of Kennedy.

538
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little bit about, you know,

539
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: outside of her relationship with men. You mentioned this idea

540
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: of Kick being a feminist in her own time period,

541
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: So in terms of her let's say, career and professional ambitions.

542
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: When she had that brief period in America between her

543
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: adolescence and moving back to Mary Billy, she was a journalist.

544
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: She worked at the Washington Herald, the Washington Herald, Yes,

545
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: thank you. And then during this early period of the war,

546
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: and of course my knowledge of history a spot here,

547
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: But during this era of the war, you could almost

548
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: argue women got a small taste of liberation because they

549
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: had to step in and do the work needed at

550
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: home while all the men were away. And so what

551
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: was that like for a Kick?

552
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: Oh, you're absolutely right, and it was liberating. So obviously,

553
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: Joe Senior wanted all of the children off English soil.

554
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 2: When the war broke out. He was completely convinced Hillar

555
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: would win. He said that Hillary would win the war

556
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 2: and Britain would be decimated, and he wanted to get

557
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 2: his short in too safety. So they all went and

558
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: Kick didn't want to go because she just loved England

559
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: so much and she wanted to join the Red Cross

560
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: and all of this, which she did eventually, But she

561
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: went back. She as you said, she became a respected journalist.

562
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: She had a bit of a relationship with another journalist,

563
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: John White. She never did any showing off about who

564
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: she was. She used to wrap her fair coat into

565
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: a plastic bag. She was amazing and again everybody loved her.

566
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: But she had a plan and her plan was to

567
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: join the Red Cross as a sort of doughnut girl,

568
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: feeding donuts to the GIS and coffee. And she was

569
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: on a mission to get back to England despite everything,

570
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: and she did get back. And I think that in

571
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: itself is hugely feminist to say I am going back

572
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: to this country at war and at this point, you know,

573
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: her parents again horrified running, but she was completely determined.

574
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: And I think you make a really good point that

575
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: as with the First World War, women were way more

576
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: liberated because of the war, and they did have to

577
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: step into male jobs and it was an exciting time

578
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: to be and she had a brilliant time. She went back,

579
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: she joined the Red Cross, she worked with the GIS.

580
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: She was utterly hard working, charming, loved made everybody laugh

581
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: as she always brought so much joy and pleasure. She

582
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: was brave. There are bombs being dropped left, right and center,

583
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: and she gets on with it. She's there with JFK

584
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: and Joe when war breaks out and she goes along

585
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: to listen to Chamberlain's speech. She's right on the cost

586
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: of all this political upheaval and unrest and she's up

587
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: for it. You know, she's not saying I want to

588
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: be safe in America and want to marry some Harvard jock.

589
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: She's not doing that, like she's saying, I want to

590
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: go back. And it was hard. It was hard work.

591
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: What she did back in England was hard work. It

592
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: wasn't cushy.

593
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: The determination she had to be exactly where she wanted

594
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: to be. I mean, initially she hoped for an assignment

595
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: doing public relations for the Red Cross at the London

596
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: Central Office, and then she somehow could not get that,

597
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: and so then she was being placed in one of

598
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: the Red Cross's rest and recreation clubs, which is what

599
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: today I think evolved into the USO. So the job

600
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: over there was to entertain gis and sailors on leave,

601
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: and then when it became clear that that's what she

602
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: would do, I think correct me if I'm wrong that

603
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: most of the women at that entry level would be

604
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: placed in some sort of more rural environment in one

605
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: of these far flung places. But she, through a combination

606
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: of determination on her own part and also of course

607
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: calling in favors via her father and via her family,

608
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: she got placed at like the most high profile, prestigious place,

609
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: which was in a posh Victorian hotel, like a block

610
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: from Herod's, exactly where someone would want to be that

611
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: was at the center of it all. So this is

612
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: during the beginning of the war. It is impressive that

613
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: she somehow made her way back exactly where she wanted

614
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: to be in order to both do more interesting work

615
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: and be with the man that she wanted to be with.

616
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: Is it worth getting into the fact that in the

617
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: meantime Billy became engaged to a different woman. It's unclear

618
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: what kind of became a bad Yeah.

619
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: I mean it was very soon he broke it off

620
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: and he was engaged to Sally Norton, and then he

621
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: broke it off because he wasn't in love with Sally.

622
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: He was still enough Kick, but I think he didn't

623
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: think Kick would come back. And then the minute Kick

624
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: came back, he raced to see her and it was

625
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 2: all back on. I don't think anybody ever really saw

626
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: he would ever go through with the other engagement. It

627
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: was during war. People were making rash decisions. When you

628
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: think you're going to die the next morning. All sorts

629
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: of rash decisions are Maybe people can become very impulsive,

630
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: but his heart was never in it. He just because

631
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: he was so in love with Kathleen, and then when

632
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: she came back that was it. They were back together,

633
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: and this time he said that's it. He was completely

634
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: determined and that they would get married.

635
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: As we're moving on, we're getting closer and closer to

636
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: the sadder parts of her story. But you know, there's

637
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: something about Kick to me that seems almost you know,

638
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: not to sound glib, but there's a sense of like

639
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: a privileged girl studying abroad, like you know, it's almost

640
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: like an Emily and Paris figure. Like she's she has

641
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: this very optimistic outlook, and she's always trying to both

642
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: have a really full social life and also advance professionally,

643
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: and also have love affair well I don't know if

644
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: I've called them love affairs, but you know, flirtations with

645
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: men whatever. And there's this quote from when she was

646
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: working at the Red Cross where she wrote to her

647
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: parents the director just had a little chat with me.

648
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: The first complaint was that I had too many phone calls. Second,

649
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: I should cut down on my personal life. I don't

650
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: see how I could possibly do it any more than

651
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: I am already doing. So that really adds some personality. Okay,

652
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: so I want to walk through the timeline a little bit.

653
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: She marries Billy in May of nineteen forty four. Then

654
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: in August of nineteen forty four, her brother Joe is

655
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: killed in the war, which in this generation of Kennedy's

656
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: the first major tragedy that really, you know, begins this

657
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: series of tragic accidents and political assassinations, and it's the

658
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: first big tragedy. And then just a few months later,

659
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: September of nineteen forty four, Billy is killed. So what

660
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: was that chapter of her life like? What were her

661
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 1: ratings like during this era?

662
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, as you can imagine, she was absolutely devastated.

663
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: She was actually in America, which she heard that Billy

664
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: had died, and her father broke the news to her.

665
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 2: She was in New York and absolutely devastated. And Jack

666
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: jeffk said it was one of the worst days of

667
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: his life to see her pain and her anguish because

668
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: she'd been through so much to marry Billy, and it

669
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: was so heartbreaking. They had such a happy honeymoon and

670
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: they were just so in love and it was her

671
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: worst Nightma. But of course losing Joe before then added

672
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: to that sense of loss, So she'd lost a lot

673
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: and so she was really devastated. But she was absolutely

674
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: determined to go back to England, even though she had

675
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: a husband, but she's still all her friends were saying,

676
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: come back, come back, come back, and she did go back,

677
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: and she writes this really poignant letter when she's I

678
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: feel like a cork bobbing, you know, in emotional a

679
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 2: drift without Billy. So she got her other little house

680
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 2: and she was surrounded by love and warmth, and of

681
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: course her in laws adored her, and even more so

682
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: after Billy's death, because they said, you gave him the

683
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: only happiness he really knew in his her whole life.

684
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: So they were super indebted to her. But it was

685
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: the loss was incalculable, you know it was. It was

686
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: an incalculable loss. And as you rightly say, Joe's death

687
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: initially was the beginning of this domino effect of tragedy,

688
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: and you know, Rosemary's lobotomy, All of these terrible things

689
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: started happening to these golden children, these nine beautiful, golden, clever,

690
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,959
Speaker 2: talented children, and loss just kept happening because the loss,

691
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 2: it was lost after loss after loss, and rose really

692
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 2: came into her own because she was really a rock

693
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: and support to Kick, and she said, look, I know,

694
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: I know I wasn't supportive of this, but I did

695
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 2: accept it. And although she said, God works in a

696
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: mysterious way and maybe this is what God wanted, which

697
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: is what she would do, because she's very pious, so

698
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: very devout, she was very supportive. But again I think

699
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 2: testament to kicks courage is she could have EASi less.

700
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 2: You say she was very privileged, she was titled. Now,

701
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: she had money beyond her wildest dreams. She could have

702
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: just stayed in America. She could have just been surrounded

703
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: by her family. The war wasn't over it, but she

704
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: was absolutely no determined to go back and that is

705
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: where I belong, that is where my friends are, and

706
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: I'll pick myself up and dust myself off. And she deeply,

707
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: deeply courageous. And I do think the loss of her

708
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 2: brother Joe was huge. He had a huge impact on her.

709
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: And what was her day to day life like after

710
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: she became widowed, Well, she.

711
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: Became quite involved in politics. So she had this beautiful

712
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 2: little house at Westminster and she was able to go

713
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: and listen to speeches and she hung out in quite

714
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: a political intellectual circle. And in fact JFK came over

715
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: and she drove him around in her little blue car,

716
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 2: and he was really beginning to understand how politics because

717
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: obviously with the death of Joe, he said, I feel

718
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 2: my father's eyes boring into me because now I've got

719
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: to be president. So it really changed everything for JFK.

720
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: And she again sort of scooped him up and said,

721
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: come and live with me, and come and see how

722
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 2: this is done, and come and talk about politics. And

723
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: I think in a funny way, she really came into

724
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: her own because she was no longer just Billy's wife,

725
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: But actually she became more politicized, more fascinated by the

726
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: world around her. She lived very close to Winston Churchill

727
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 2: after the war and fed him and used to live eggs.

728
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 2: And she became way more serious, I think than what

729
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: she had been perceived to be because she was a socialized,

730
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: privileged debutante. And Billy's death and Joe's death made her

731
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: very serious in many many ways. But she's still a

732
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 2: girl that everybody wants to dance with the ball and

733
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: again people are still saying, oh my goodness, now she's

734
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: still stealing all our men. She's stealing Peter Fitzwilliam and

735
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: oh my god, they still all fall in love with her.

736
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: But when you read those letters after the war, towards

737
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: the end of the war and after the war, there's

738
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: a note of real seriousness in those letters of the

739
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: impact the tragedy of the war, the tragedy of Billy's

740
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: death has sorrow and not having had a child, because

741
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: that would have been a very different if she'd had

742
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: a child, and an air to Chatsworth been very different

743
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 2: for it. But she didn't, and that was a great

744
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: tragedy and a great sense of loss for her. But

745
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: she was beatling around in a little blue carl, becoming

746
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: much more of a political animal than she'd ever been.

747
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: So she was moving in quite interesting she had that

748
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: journalist background. She was moving in quite interesting circles. But

749
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: then she met Peter William FITZWILLI.

750
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: I do want to get into a Fitzilian But because

751
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: you mentioned it, I'm curious. You know, you say she

752
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: became a political animal, she started moving in these circles.

753
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: What were her politics, what were her beliefs, what were

754
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: her value? What political issues did you care about?

755
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: I mean she didn't really talk about that. I mean,

756
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: obviously after the war in Britain was a very different place,

757
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: and it was still a place of utter deprivation and poverty,

758
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: and London was bombed. Liverpool was like, you know, it

759
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: was a world in utter sort of chaos and what

760
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: they were trying to rebuild the country, and so then

761
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: labor were starting to become really important, you know. And

762
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: I think politics, So when I say she was a

763
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 2: christ politics, she went and listened. She listened. She didn't

764
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: affiliate herself to anything. But I think she was deeply

765
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: democratic and she was deeply anti Nazi, as everyone in

766
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: England was at the time. But I think she was

767
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 2: somebody who just went along and sort of listened to

768
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: kept her eye to the ground, took her brother around,

769
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: said come and let's listen to this speech. I listen

770
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: to that speech. I listened to the other speech. But

771
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: she died soon after, so there wasn't enough time for

772
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 2: her to really get into it. But I saw a difference.

773
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 2: I saw a different in the tone of the letters

774
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: and in the thinking and her influence on bringing JFK

775
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 2: to see how things were done politically in Britain.

776
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, stay with us,

777
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 1: and we're back with United States of Kennedy. So as

778
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: you're saying she's stealing everyone's husband. Speaking of that, she

779
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: meets Peter Fitzwilliam. This is the second sort of love

780
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: of her life. And Billy was not Catholic, which was

781
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: of course controversial. But Peter is not only Protestant but

782
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: also married. So I'm sure Rose thought that the worst

783
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: was behind her in terms of faux pause. But this

784
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: was even worse than she could have imagined. So what

785
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: was that courtship? Like?

786
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: Oh, a total Wormand and she wrote a letter to Kick,

787
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: wrote to Joe because I think I found my red

788
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: Butler gone with the wind with the Big film in

789
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine. You know, everyone was in love with

790
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: Clark Gable. And if you can imagine the living manifestation

791
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: of Clark Gable, that would be Peter Fitzwilliam Tall, dark, handsome,

792
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 2: a war hero, sassy, satirical, clever, unbelievably brave. He was

793
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: a war hero, and he was married, he had a child,

794
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: and he fell in love with her and a dance

795
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: at a ball and was just totally smitten and utterly

796
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: determined to marry her. And at one point he said,

797
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: just tell your dad did the pope onto church. I'll

798
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 2: build him a church. What do I need to do

799
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: to marry you? So again, like with Billy, he was

800
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: completely serious. He wasn't messing around. And as you rightly say,

801
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: this was a rose that thought she'd had her worst night.

802
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: M this was actually even worse because of all problems,

803
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: not only not Catholic, but married child. He'd have to

804
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: get divorced. He was living apart from his wife. But

805
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: he was a roumate. He was a great flirt. He

806
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: was a great seductor. Billy was not wildly. Kick was

807
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: his first love. Billy was a shy, languid, introvert, and

808
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: Peter was the opposite. And I always felt, when I

809
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: was doing my research for my book that he was

810
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: much more of a Kennedy boy. He was like her brothers,

811
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: who she felt very familiar. There were matt Show, they

812
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: were dare devils, they were fearless, they were charismatics, very

813
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: very different to Billy, and she was quite literally swept

814
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: off her feet.

815
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: So was there I mean, of course, this is all unfortunate,

816
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: building to them tragically dying in just a few months later,

817
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: But was there any hope of reconciliation? With Rose. Were

818
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: there conversations about it? What was that like?

819
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: Well, she very cleverly got to her brother, She got

820
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: to Jack first and got him on side, and then

821
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: she got to her father because she was her father's

822
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: favorite child and she felt that if she went via

823
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: the brother and her father, they would talk Rose around.

824
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 2: And indeed she was going to meet Joe with Peter

825
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: when they're playing crashed. So Rose obviously horrified. But Kick

826
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: was on a mission. If I get my dad on side,

827
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: if I get Jack on side, and I'm going to

828
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: do it. She's going to do it. She's done it before.

829
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: She's absolutely going to do it. But obviously, Rose, when

830
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: she finally discovers, aid that they were sleeping together because

831
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 2: that was discovered after the plane crash. She was so

832
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: devastated that she had been sleeping with a married man

833
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: that she that was when the whitewash began. That's where

834
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: Rose just lost it and said, I almost I'm just

835
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: going to whitewash her from the She almost becomes a

836
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 2: persona non gratted because she was so deeply horrified by

837
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 2: kicks behavior.

838
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: So obviously Kick and Peter end up dying in this

839
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: horrible I mean there's the Flight Safety Foundation has this

840
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: description of exactly how the plane went down, and I'm

841
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: not even going to read it because if you have

842
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: any anxiety about flying, this is the worst two paragraphs

843
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: you can read. I mean, it's like if there's turbulence

844
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: on a plane and you imagine what could happen if

845
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: this was a horror movie. Let's just say that's exactly Yes,

846
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. I mean, one of the wings

847
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: flew off when they were finally out of the turbulence,

848
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: they were already in a free fall, nose dive. I mean,

849
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: it is truly horrible. They both die and then famously,

850
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: Joe is the only Kennedy present at her funeral. So

851
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: obviously Rose was incredibly hurt and scandalized by her sleeping

852
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: with a married man. What was the rest of the

853
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: family's reaction.

854
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: I mean, just devastation. Bobby she was very very close to,

855
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 2: and Jack she was very very close to. So I

856
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: think her brother's, because she was so beloved, were absolutely heartbroken.

857
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: JFK Was really heartbroken, as was her father, and he

858
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: said this beautiful thing about God must have wanted her

859
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: for himself to have taken her from us. So they

860
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: were all completely devastated. But there was this scandal because

861
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 2: of the circumstances in which you know, she was found

862
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: with a married man. There was contraception in her luggage,

863
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 2: you know, there were flimsy negliges. It was very clear

864
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 2: they'd been off on a dirty weekend before they met Joe,

865
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: and so it was a huge scandal but obviously complete devastation.

866
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: And she was buried at Chatsworth. So the Devon just

867
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: swooped in again and said she should be buried in

868
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: England in Chatsworth. And I'm always very moved by the

869
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: story of JFK, you know, stopping his helicopter on the

870
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: way to Ireland when he makes his presidential visit, and

871
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: he stopped and nelt Kick's grave. He stopped at Chatsworth

872
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: and laid flowers and prayed at her grave. Nelted down

873
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: and prayed. You know, it was absolutely devastating. And Joe dies,

874
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: Billy dies, Kick Dice, Peter Dice. I mean, it's just

875
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: a terrible tragedy all round. But I think Rose was

876
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: really damage limitation, really, so she was very determined that

877
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: this was a scandal, and particularly as it's very clear

878
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: that Jack's going places. They just don't want to scandal

879
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: like this on the family name. And that's when the

880
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: whole apparatus sort of kicks in of we don't talk

881
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 2: about this. None of us are going to go to

882
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: the funeral. It will only be Joe. You know, this

883
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 2: will not get discussed. And of course Rose was devaster,

884
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: wrote about it in her memoir, but absolutely devastated as

885
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: she would be. But this begins the process of we

886
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: don't really talk about kick. Yeah, and that was entirely

887
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 2: to do with the circumstances, not just of Billy and

888
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: her defection, but Peter. I mean, she'd really gone one

889
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: step further and that was for her mother untenable, but

890
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: not for the rest of the family, just completely devastated

891
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: by her loss.

892
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's such a recurring Kennedy theme, this kind of

893
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: push and pull between private and public and sometimes public

894
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,919
Speaker 1: Trump's private and doing the quote unquote the right thing

895
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 1: is simply not a good enough reason to do something

896
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: if it will also cause scandal and outcry and you know,

897
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: cause a stain to the family name. I want to

898
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: ask one final question, which is sort of a I

899
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: don't know. It's one that I often think about when

900
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: reading things about the Kennedy's, which is that anyone who

901
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: writes about the Kennedys is immediately accused of being either

902
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: too hard on them or too reverential. And this is

903
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: obviously a book that you are explicitly saying, you know,

904
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: you want to portray Kick Kennedy as this empowered woman,

905
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: as a feminist, as you're saying, you know, you want

906
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: to tell her story which has not been told before,

907
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: in this sort of a comprehensive way. Did you face

908
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: criticism that it is too you know, hagiographic like that

909
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: you are almost you know, putting the Kennedy's on a pedestal,

910
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: so to speak, not on the whole.

911
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: I think that I had one review that accused me

912
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: of that, but that was a lone voice. I mean,

913
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 2: most of the critics really liked what I was doing,

914
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: not least because I said from the start, I'm not

915
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: getting into the politics of Joe Sen. I'm simply looking

916
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: at him as a parent. And what was so interesting

917
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: was the Kennedy Found really embraced me after I published

918
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: the book and wrote to me and invited me to

919
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 2: JFK's fiftieth anniversary, and I met the family and got

920
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: invited to the party, and the Kennedy family said to me,

921
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: thank you for seeing our grandparents as people. And that

922
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: was really moving to me, because you know, whether you

923
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 2: think Joe's a monster, whether you think Rose a monster,

924
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 2: I don't really care. And also I don't really think

925
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 2: anybody's a monster. Nobody's black or white. We're all shades

926
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: of gray. We all do our best, We're not all great. Parents,

927
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: were all flawed human beings. So I came at it

928
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: from quite a humanist point of view. And the family said,

929
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: we really appreciated that. They did say a lot of

930
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: Americans really knock the Kennedys and vilified the Kennedy's, and

931
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: she said, particularly the eldest daughter, Bobby's eldest daughter said

932
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: to me, as a family, we were quite moved by

933
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: the fact that you seem to be one of the

934
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 2: few people saying, hang on a minute, these were parents,

935
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: and they actually did some great things, and they did

936
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 2: some terrible things, but they were human and they were flawed,

937
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: but they were still in their own way loving, And

938
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 2: she said to the Kennedys were so lovely, as were

939
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: the Duke of Devnger's family, who also were very moved

940
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: by the book because they loved Kick so much, and

941
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: so the Duke of Devonnger invited me and said, we

942
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: love your book because it's so easy to take a

943
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 2: pop with the Kennedys. It's so easy for me to

944
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: do that and to be really dismissive and scathing. But

945
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: I was really interested in the YOUNGJFK. The young JFK

946
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: went around Germany picking up hitchhikers because he said, their

947
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 2: students they speak English. Tami, what's happening with Hitler? Not

948
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 2: the playboy JFK, but the deeply intelligent intellectual who was

949
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: diagnosed in England because he was so ill. I just

950
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 2: wanted to shine a light on a time in the Kennedys'

951
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: lives other people perhaps didn't see, because people still say

952
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: I didn't know they lived in England. I didn't know

953
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 2: JFK went around Germany when he was a young man.

954
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 2: So I just wanted to shine a light. Yes, you

955
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 2: know you're going to get people who said I was

956
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: too kind towards them, but I also felt for me.

957
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 2: She was heroic, and I wanted to bring out that

958
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: defying your country, to find your faith, to find your mother,

959
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: who's so strong and your family was deeply courageous, and

960
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: so I just wanted to shine a light on that.

961
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 2: And then you just have to then leave up to

962
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 2: the reader to make up their mind as to whether

963
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: they agree or not.

964
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: You know, that's right, And this is something we run

965
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: into in this podcast as well. I mean, the point

966
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: of view of each guest is so completely different. I mean,

967
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: there are some people that come in basically wanting to

968
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: argue that the Kennedys are all complete frauds and they

969
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: have been, you know, a stay in on American history.

970
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: There are other people that, as I'm sure you know

971
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: from the ecosystem of writing about the Kennedy's, there are

972
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: people that exaggerate their connection with some Kennedy that has

973
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: long deceased, that could never speak out and be like, actually,

974
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: we weren't friends and we weren't at that party to

975
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: get you know, there are people whose whole thing is

976
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: being like a former friend of Jackie's writing books about

977
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 1: it and as a family that especially on the interpersonal level,

978
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: it is so difficult to find anything resembling objective, actual truth.

979
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: So all of these narrative I have to coexist, and

980
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: some of them are more human, and some of them

981
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: are more systemic and about power dynamics and their place

982
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: in American history. But I think this was for me,

983
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, just as a pure biography of someone's life

984
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: that was caught up in such strange circumstances during such

985
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: a pivotal time in American history. Was really it was

986
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: really very fascinating. So thank you so much. This was

987
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:22,879
Speaker 1: really really great.

988
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks so much for having me. Thank you.

989
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode. United States of Kennedy

990
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: is hosted by me George Severes. Original music by Joshua Topolski.

991
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: Production help by Carmen lorenz Our. Executive producer is Jenna Cagel.

992
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: Research by Dave Rus and Austin Thompson, Edited by Graham Gibson,

993
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: and mixed by Doug Bain. United States of Kennedy is

994
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts. Subscribe and follow United States

995
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: of Kennedy for all Things Kennedy each week