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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Jay Cooper. Jay, you called me

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Speaker 1: about your old client, Rod Temperton, right, I was writing

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Speaker 1: about Quincy Jones. Can you tell me more about Rod?

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Speaker 2: Yes. Rod was originally a member of heat Wave that

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Speaker 2: I represented, who had a number of major hits and

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Speaker 2: most of them were written by Rod Temperton. And I

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Speaker 2: was representing heat Wave, and then Rod, when he left

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Speaker 2: heat Wave, retained me to continue his representation of him

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Speaker 2: as a songwriter. Well, it was a heat Wave. He

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Speaker 2: wrote Boogie Knights and Always in Forever a number of

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Speaker 2: other hits. And then evidently Quincy Jones had heard of

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Speaker 2: these records and he was doing an album with Michael Jackson,

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Speaker 2: and he called. I got a hold of Rod. Rod

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Speaker 2: told me about it, came over here into Los Angeles,

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Speaker 2: and Quincy hired him to come here and to do

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Speaker 2: an album with Michael Jackson. And that album turned out

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Speaker 2: to be the songs that Rod wrote for it.

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Speaker 1: So like back in the day with heat Wave, how'd

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Speaker 1: you get clients? Were you actively searching or once you

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Speaker 1: made your name they came to you.

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Speaker 2: I never actively searched, exactly but they came to be.

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Speaker 2: They were recommended to be by producer in London whose

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Speaker 2: name at the moment I don't remember.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. Did you always plan

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Speaker 1: to be an entertainment attorney.

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Speaker 2: No, I planned to be a musician from the time

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Speaker 2: I was a little kid. I wanted to be a musician,

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Speaker 2: That's all I wanted. I studied music from the time

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Speaker 2: I was three years old. My father was a musician,

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Speaker 2: and I was ready when I finished high school to

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Speaker 2: go off and to get on the road with a band.

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Speaker 2: And my parents said, no, no, you My parents were Jewish.

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Speaker 2: Of course, that means you have no choice. You have

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Speaker 2: to go to law school or medical school. So they

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Speaker 2: introduced me to a lawyer and they said, okay, I'll

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Speaker 2: go to law school, but I got to find a

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Speaker 2: music school too, So I founded DePaul University in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: where I grew up, and I had a music school

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Speaker 2: of law school, and it turned out they were in

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Speaker 2: the same building, so it was perfect. I did my

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Speaker 2: law classes in the morning and my music classes in

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Speaker 2: the afternoon, and I worked my way through school playing music,

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Speaker 2: playing with various bands and things like that. The Chicago

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Speaker 2: area and I finished law school, took the bar exam.

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Speaker 2: It was three days and day four I left with

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Speaker 2: the band and ultimately came to California. And I was

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Speaker 2: working here in California as a musician for a number

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Speaker 2: of years, and eventually that's the story I've told a

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Speaker 2: long time. How I got into law was through drugs.

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Speaker 2: What this was My music friends were getting busted for

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Speaker 2: possession and I was the only one they knew who

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Speaker 2: had a law degree, and so they asked me to

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Speaker 2: see if I could help them out. So I took

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Speaker 2: the bar exam and started doing helping them with their

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Speaker 2: drug cases. And while I was doing drug cases, they said,

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Speaker 2: can you read this record contract? Can you read this

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Speaker 2: television contract? Can you read this movie contract? So I

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Speaker 2: opened a little office in Beverly Hills, and that's where

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Speaker 2: I started.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what were this what were you know, marijuana?

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Speaker 1: I won't say it's exactly legal, but close to it

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Speaker 1: in California. What was it like in the fifties.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was, it was It was not bad. It

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Speaker 2: was nothing particularly wrong. Musicians many were on marijuana, some

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Speaker 2: were on hard drugs. Bands used to have like four

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Speaker 2: different kinds of musicians and they would have the hard

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Speaker 2: drug musicians, the marijuana musicians, the drinker musicians, and the

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Speaker 2: straits who did nothing. And so when you lost the

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Speaker 2: trombone player, you had to find somebody. You had to

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Speaker 2: find somebody who fit in that category with the tron

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Speaker 2: buempare also a druggie or was he also a drinker

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Speaker 2: or was he something else? So musicians were not at

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Speaker 2: that time, and I don't and I guess since they

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Speaker 2: were not. They didn't carry guns, they didn't carry knives,

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Speaker 2: they weren't violent. They they were more i would say,

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Speaker 2: more mellow and interested in their in their careers and

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Speaker 2: their their horns than they were in anything else.

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Speaker 1: Now, you said your father was a musician. Was he

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Speaker 1: a full time musician at one time? Yes, he was,

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Speaker 1: And tell me more about his career.

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Speaker 2: He was. He was a marvelous musician. He was in

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Speaker 2: a very famous band called the Wayne King Orchestra. They

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Speaker 2: were from the They used to play the Aragon Ballroom

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Speaker 2: in Chicago. They had a weekly broadcast from there, and

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Speaker 2: he was the lead saxophone player and the singer in

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Speaker 2: that and he did that for many years.

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Speaker 1: Okay. And you started taking music lessons as young.

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Speaker 2: Age, Yes, they're three years old.

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Speaker 1: Three years old?

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Speaker 2: Three years old?

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Speaker 1: What the piano at three?

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Speaker 2: No, My father gave me a little soprano saxophone, a

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Speaker 2: very small little sopran which I still have to this day.

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Speaker 2: And I played it for a year or two till

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Speaker 2: my teeth fell out. And while I was waiting for

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Speaker 2: my teeth to grow in, I went to piano, and

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Speaker 2: then eventually to clarinet, and then back to saxophone, and

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Speaker 2: then added flute over the years.

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Speaker 1: And what instrument did he play?

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Speaker 2: He played saxophone, he played saxophone, and he played trumpet,

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Speaker 2: and he played clarinet.

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Speaker 1: And do you have any siblings?

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Speaker 2: I had a sister, yes, And was she older younger?

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Speaker 2: She was younger, seven years or five years younger, But

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Speaker 2: she never was a performer.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in this era, in the thirties and forties,

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Speaker 1: you're playing your instrument at home? Are you playing out

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Speaker 1: with school bands, bands and halls? What's it like?

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Speaker 2: Well, of course I was in high school. I was

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Speaker 2: in the school band, I was in the school orchestra,

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Speaker 2: I was in the pep band, I was in the

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Speaker 2: marching band. I was doing all of that, doing my studies. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and then uh, forming bands outside. We would play the

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Speaker 2: local the local park houses and all that. The parks

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Speaker 2: all had a building where you could have dances and

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Speaker 2: things like that. And that's what I was doing, and

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Speaker 2: that I was playing weddings and playing dances and playing

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Speaker 2: various things of that nature. Yeah, enough to make a

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Speaker 2: living to pay my way through school.

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Speaker 1: And what kind of music were you playing?

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Speaker 2: Big band type music or big band a lot or

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Speaker 2: play small bands and weddings? I played Polish weddings, Jewish weddings,

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Speaker 2: Greek weddings, Italian weddings, played them all. We played the

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Speaker 2: polkas at the at the the Polish weddings, we played

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Speaker 2: seven eight time music. In Greek weddings, we played all

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Speaker 2: the Jewish music, the Klasberg type of music. Played anything.

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Speaker 1: And were you playing in multiple acts multiple bands?

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Speaker 2: Was there one multiple multiple? I was a free lance musician.

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Speaker 2: I'll take any call.

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Speaker 1: Was the union involved at all at that time?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I joined. I would remember the union by fifteen.

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Speaker 1: Yes, now the union is almost irrelevant. But was the

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Speaker 1: union in control? Everybody worked were a member of the union.

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Speaker 2: Back then, everybody worked through the union because they paid

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Speaker 2: you had minimum minimum per minimum salaries per gig that

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Speaker 2: you played, and that's where you got all your jobs.

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Speaker 2: You went down to the union like on Saturday afternoon

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Speaker 2: and you hung around and somebody say, hey, we're looking

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Speaker 2: for a saxophone player for Saturday night. I'm looking for

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Speaker 2: this for Sunday night. I'm looking for this. And that's

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Speaker 2: how you got your jobs.

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Speaker 1: So you said you graduated from law school, you took

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Speaker 1: the bar, and then you immediately went on the road.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it. The first thing was I got

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Speaker 2: a call from a band called Larry Fhoteen. He was

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Speaker 2: an originally he had his own band. He was an

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Speaker 2: original arranger, I should say, for the Sammy Kay Orchestra.

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Speaker 2: And we went to New York, worked around, worked the

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Speaker 2: East coast. We were drove in cars, three or four

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Speaker 2: separate cars a group of us, and we were working

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Speaker 2: the west East coast. And then I got a call

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Speaker 2: from the band called Henry Bussey band that was a

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Speaker 2: big band in the days. Henry Bussy was originally a

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Speaker 2: first trumpet player for the Paul Whitebolt Orchestra, and then

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Speaker 2: he had an orchestra. He was based out of Los Angeles,

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Speaker 2: and I got a call they lost their elite outdo

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Speaker 2: player the Midwest. So I was doing a record date

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Speaker 2: in Cincinnati at that time with the Larry Foteen band,

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Speaker 2: and so I called around to see if I get

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Speaker 2: a sub for me, and I found a sub, and

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Speaker 2: I called my parents. They drove the sub down to

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Speaker 2: Cincinnati where I was, and they drove me to where

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Speaker 2: I had to meet the band with Henry Bussey band.

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Speaker 2: And two weeks later that same year, I was in

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Speaker 2: California and I said, this is for me.

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Speaker 1: So how did this band know of you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was recommended by another saxophone player. I guess

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Speaker 2: he got the call and he didn't want to go out,

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Speaker 2: and so he recommended me somebody I hadn't met at

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Speaker 2: Depault at music school.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, you're in Los Angeles, then what goes on?

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Speaker 2: I'm in Los Angeles and now, of course I'm looking

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Speaker 2: for work and I did so many people except the band.

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Speaker 2: I arrived and I used to go down with my

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Speaker 2: horn to the Musicians Union, which was at eight seventeen

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Speaker 2: Vine Street in those days. I go there every day

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Speaker 2: with mount horns to practice because I was living in

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Speaker 2: a little apartment in Hollywood and you couldn't practice your

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Speaker 2: instruments there, so I would walk a mile to a

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Speaker 2: local forty seven on Vine Street. I practiced my horns,

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Speaker 2: and then they also had rehearsal rooms there. And then

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Speaker 2: one of the bands heard me playing practicing and they said, hey,

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Speaker 2: we need an alto player. So I joined that band.

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Speaker 2: It was a rehearsal band, and you met a lot

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Speaker 2: of musicians, with a lot of great musicians there through

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Speaker 2: the rehearsal band. Because we used to we used to

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Speaker 2: play charts for all the arrangers used to bring in

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Speaker 2: their charts try them out, and so we got to

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Speaker 2: know all the arrangers. I got to know all these musicians,

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Speaker 2: and I started getting calls for work and I would

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Speaker 2: go out with I'd go out with Nat Cole, I'd

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Speaker 2: go out with Bobby Darren. I was out with Frank

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Speaker 2: Sinatra for quite a while. I was out with I

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Speaker 2: went out with the Less Brown Band. I went out

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Speaker 2: with the Charlie Charlie Barnett band. I was part of

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Speaker 2: Baited Ferguson's band, and I did a lot of Latin bands.

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Speaker 2: I was playing Latin bands and used to Sunday night

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Speaker 2: on I had the Palladium Bowroom in La used to

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Speaker 2: have five six bands doing Latin Night. On Sunday, you'd

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Speaker 2: have two thousand of latinos dancing. It was incredible and

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Speaker 2: sometimes I'd play with four of the five bands. It

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Speaker 2: was just a great time. There was lots of opportunity.

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Speaker 2: There was ballrooms everywhere in La. There was jazz clubs,

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Speaker 2: there was every studio had full symphony orchestras. So you

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Speaker 2: had seven full time symphony orchestras in the studios. You

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Speaker 2: had three networks, they all had full time orchestras. And

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Speaker 2: there was clubs everywhere, so there were opportunities to play.

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Speaker 2: Was enormous. I was became the I was the benefactor

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Speaker 2: of that, and so the beneficiary I should say.

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Speaker 1: Once you were in La, did you go on the

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Speaker 1: road again or did you stay?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, I would go out and go out and

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Speaker 2: come back. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what was it like being on the road in

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Speaker 1: the fifties as opposted today?

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Speaker 2: Well, I can't tell you about the road today, but

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Speaker 2: I can tell you about it then. It was. It

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Speaker 2: was fine, It was there was rarely any problems of

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Speaker 2: any sort. You would go out for three weeks, four weeks,

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Speaker 2: five weeks and then come back. You know, Uh, you

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Speaker 2: worked in the big ballrooms. There were ballrooms. Every every

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Speaker 2: city had ballrooms right either inside the city or on

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Speaker 2: the outskirts of the city, or and you had theaters

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Speaker 2: where they you would play between the movies. You would

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Speaker 2: you would be on the stage and the movie theater

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Speaker 2: played between that. Or the big dance halls. Every every

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Speaker 2: city had a big dance hall somewhere. And it was

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Speaker 2: wonderful to keep running into run into other bands. And

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Speaker 2: one of the great things was one time I was

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Speaker 2: with the Less Brown Band and we were in I

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Speaker 2: think it was may have been Salt Lake, I'm not

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Speaker 2: positive at the moment, but we were in the hotel.

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Speaker 2: And of course, when you're on the bus and all that,

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Speaker 2: you're dressing your jeans, your shirt, you're kind of ragged

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Speaker 2: and all that, particularly when you're driving three miles four

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Speaker 2: hundred miles a day. And we were a bunch of

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Speaker 2: us were standing outside when we're at this hotel, and

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Speaker 2: here comes the Count Basie band pulling up the stay

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Speaker 2: of the same hotel. They all got off the bus

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Speaker 2: in suits and times they looked like they just they

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Speaker 2: just were dressed for the case. It was just wonderful

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Speaker 2: to see. It was a great time. It was a

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Speaker 2: great time, Okay.

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Speaker 1: The rock and roll musicians wanted to go on the

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Speaker 1: road to meet the girls, to do drugs. Was it

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Speaker 1: the same in your era?

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Speaker 2: No, No, it was, it was I suppose there will

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Speaker 2: always be some of those. There were certainly a number

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Speaker 2: of people on hard drugs and things like that. But no,

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Speaker 2: we were all there for the music. We were there

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Speaker 2: for the music, not for the girls. Uh. We were

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Speaker 2: there for the music, definitely, okay.

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Speaker 1: And what was it like being Jewish on the road.

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Speaker 2: Nothing, You didn't know you were Jewish or anything else.

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Speaker 1: And what about when you had toured with black musicians?

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Speaker 2: What was that like? Oh, well, you had to be

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Speaker 2: you had to be very careful where you would stay.

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Speaker 2: But there was no there was no no particular, no

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Speaker 2: particular problem. The problem with when black musicians at that

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Speaker 2: time was they had to live with what they called

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Speaker 2: the Green Book, which I'm sure you know about, which

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Speaker 2: was the list of places where they could stay, where

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Speaker 2: they could eat. Uh. And so that was always difficult.

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Speaker 2: But uh, that was always difficult, probably still difficult to

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Speaker 2: this day. Other than that, it was generally generally fine.

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Speaker 2: We you know, you knew what hotels to stay at

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Speaker 2: you knew where they were where. It was acceptable to

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Speaker 2: have musicians and things like that, but generally that time

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Speaker 2: there was not a lot of them. There was a

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Speaker 2: crazy craziness going on with in the bands. It was

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Speaker 2: there was pretty pretty normal. People were pretty serious about

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Speaker 2: what they were doing.

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Speaker 1: So what would you and the other band members do

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Speaker 1: when you were not on stage, when you were on

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Speaker 1: the bus or in the hotel room? How would you

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Speaker 1: pass the time?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I always sat in the back of the bus.

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Speaker 2: The leader always had in the front of the bush.

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Speaker 2: The girl singer always had in the front of the bus.

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Speaker 2: Uh So everybody had their place where they use They said,

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Speaker 2: I like to sit in the back. You read, you read,

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Speaker 2: you're looking to see, you talk to you, talk to

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Speaker 2: your friends. Nothing dramatic, nothing dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So from the time that you came to Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles till you opened your office, how long a period

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Speaker 1: of time was that?

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Speaker 2: About three or four years, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So in that three or four years, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: you were practicing.

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Speaker 2: No law, no, not at all whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So you have these friends, they get into varying

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Speaker 1: scraps with drugs. You're a newbie lawyer, So how do

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Speaker 1: you figure out how to defend them?

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Speaker 2: You do a lot of quick reading. It was it

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00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 2: was fairly simple. Let me take an example. There was

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Speaker 2: a lot of clubs on Sunset Boulevard, amongst other places.

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Speaker 2: So I be playing that. There was the Macambo, there

300
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 2: was Ciro's, there was the Crescendo, there was the Interlude.

301
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Speaker 2: There was a number of clubs there, amongst other places,

302
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Speaker 2: of course, all around the city. So let's say we

303
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 2: were working at the Macombo, all the clubs, everything closed

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Speaker 2: to two in the morning. At two in the morning,

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Speaker 2: we will be packing up. The cops would be backstage

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Speaker 2: and they say to the to the guy, open up

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Speaker 2: your case. Okay. They opened the cases, so there'd be

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Speaker 2: some drugs in it. Musicians didn't. It was easy for

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Speaker 2: the cops because musicians didn't carry knives, they didn't carry guns,

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Speaker 2: they didn't resist the rest. They weren't violent. So they

311
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Speaker 2: were giving it a rest document and saying you got

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Speaker 2: the peer in court at such and such a time.

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Speaker 2: It was clearly illegal search and seizure. There was a

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Speaker 2: motion we used to make at that time called nine

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Speaker 2: nine to five. I don't know what it's called today,

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Speaker 2: and we may go down to the court and make

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Speaker 2: a motion of illegal search and season probable cause to

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Speaker 2: accost them, and we walk out the door. And usually

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Speaker 2: I'd walk out the door with a contract or motion

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Speaker 2: picture contract or a television contract or some kind of

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Speaker 2: contract to review. And so I studied a lot.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how long after you started practicing law did you

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Speaker 1: stop playing music professionally?

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Speaker 2: Probably another seven eight years something like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, really, so, did you think that you were living

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Speaker 1: the dream in your music career or was there a

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Speaker 1: rung above that you were trying to reach.

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Speaker 2: Well, my rung was to be a studio musician, to play,

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Speaker 2: to play record and all that. And I was starting

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Speaker 2: to get a lot of very good work in town.

331
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Speaker 2: I was achieving it. And then I was trying to

332
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Speaker 2: to do both. I was trying to do the loan,

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Speaker 2: I was trying to do music. So one day, when

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Speaker 2: I was driving home, I fell asleep at the wheel.

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Speaker 2: Fortunately I was not in a bad accident, and I realized,

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Speaker 2: I have to make a choice. I can't continue to

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Speaker 2: do both.

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Speaker 1: And how hard was it to give up the music? Emotionally?

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Speaker 2: Very difficult?

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Speaker 1: And when you stopped, did you continue to play your

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Speaker 1: horn or did you put it down because it was

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Speaker 1: too painful to play?

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Speaker 2: No. I continued to play my horn. I continued to

344
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Speaker 2: do things not quite as much, and I would join

345
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Speaker 2: some local My training was, my training was my teachers

346
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 2: were in Chicago Siphony, so my training, my training was

347
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 2: classical music. So I started to do with local community

348
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Speaker 2: orchestras and things like that, which I continued to do

349
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Speaker 2: for a long time.

350
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Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in Beverly Hills, you have your office.

351
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Speaker 1: What's the legal landscape like that? Are you a party

352
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 1: of one? Are there ten people like you? The big

353
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,879
Speaker 1: law firms predate this. What's it like?

354
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Speaker 2: Well, I couldn't get a job because I was not

355
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Speaker 2: ready to give up my music. I was looking around

356
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Speaker 2: for a place. So I was trying to figure out

357
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: what to do. And so I got a little space.

358
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 2: It was an ad in the trades, and I got

359
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: a space for services. So I said, okay, I went

360
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,479
Speaker 2: to this place on South Beverly Drive in Beverly Hills,

361
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,439
Speaker 2: and I got a little office. I would have to

362
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: render certain services, like going to court for the attorney

363
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: there that I worked for a name with Lou Most

364
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 2: and he would pay me twenty five dollars a court appearance,

365
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: but I would have a little office I can work

366
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 2: out of. He never paid me the twenty five dollars,

367
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: so I lasted for a couple of years and then

368
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: left and got another office on my own. In the meantime,

369
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: I was continued to work and I started to work

370
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: with the La Philharmonic and I did that for six years.

371
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: Along with this, I was doing there playing their saxophone

372
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 2: work and for instance, like pictures that an exhibition with

373
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Speaker 2: the symphony, the balo, revels, bleo and things like that

374
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: with a saxophone with them. And then for Pop Knights,

375
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: I would play saxophone and clarinet for them with them

376
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 2: with the La Philharmonic, I was doing that and that

377
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: was terrific. Alongside while I was while I started by

378
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 2: practice of law, and I was doing some record dates

379
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 2: here and there and things of that nature. So I

380
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: was doing both until it became impossible.

381
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: And was there enough work because you were constantly in

382
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: contact with people.

383
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was enough work. That was enough work.

384
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Speaker 1: So now you put down your horn profession and you're

385
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,239
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of lawyer. What goes on?

386
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 2: Then? Well, okay, so I I had another, a second

387
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: little office on my own while I was going along,

388
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: and then I had moved to another one. I practiced,

389
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 2: started to get busy, and then I decided I only

390
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: wanted to do entertainment law and I didn't want to

391
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: do I was doing what they call door law. The

392
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: door law is whatever comes in the door. I did divorces,

393
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: I did adoptions, I did taxes, I did personal injury cases.

394
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: I did a zoning case. I did a murder case.

395
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: I did a robbery case, and I did I was

396
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: doing contract television contracts, mostly picture contracts. So one day

397
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: I said, I'm just want to do the entertainment stuff.

398
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 2: So I hired my first lawyer and I said, you're

399
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: going to do everything I don't want to do. And

400
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: that was Chuck Hurwitz. Eventually became Cooper and Hurwitz, and

401
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: after that it became Cooper Epstein at Hurwitz. Epstein was

402
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: somebody who had his own firm across the hall from

403
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 2: us in Beverly Hills, and he was looking to change

404
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: his situation and he came over with us with a

405
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: couple of attorneys and we started our little firm a

406
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: Cooper Epstein. Herwits the seven lawyers, we eventually grew to

407
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: about fifty.

408
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: Jumping way ahead, how do you transfer from Cooper Epstein

409
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: and Hurwitz to Greenberg Towing where you are?

410
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: Now? Sure? Our firm was about fifty Cooper Epstein at

411
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 2: Hurwitz and we were kind of in the middle. The

412
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: firms that I thought were great were much bigger or

413
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: much smaller, and so I went looking for a merger

414
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: or partner for us, and I found a firm ment

415
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: at Phelps and Phillips that they were interested in us.

416
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: Not everybody wanted to go, so we closed down. I

417
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: went there with about fifteen lawyers. It was not for me.

418
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: I discovered it as soon as I got there. This

419
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: wasn't for me for a lot of personal reasons which

420
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: I won't go into. It's a good firm with very

421
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 2: good lawyers, but it just didn't fit. It didn't fit me,

422
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: all right. I didn't fit it one or the other.

423
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: And out of the blue, Out of the blue, I

424
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: get a call from Larry Hoffman, who was one of

425
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: the founders of the firm ris. The fir was Greenberg

426
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: Troway Hoffman. I called me and said, we just opened

427
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: in California, which they did. That year, and we're looking

428
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: for somebody to start to our entertainment practice. You want

429
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: to come. Since I had only moved one time and

430
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 2: the idea of moving it was a bore to me,

431
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: I said, I don't think so. So he talked to

432
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: me as a company taking a trip, which they wanted

433
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: to send me at first class to the New York

434
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: office or Miami office and bring a friend of yours

435
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: and come and take a look at us. So I did.

436
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 2: I was impressed. I was impressed with a firm. I

437
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 2: was impressed with what they were doing. I had the lawyer,

438
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: the quality of lawyers. I came back, and the idea

439
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: of moving again was somewhat a boring to me, so

440
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: I said no. I said, well, think about it. So

441
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: I did. And as my life at the men at

442
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: Phelps was not great as far as I've concerned, what

443
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: I felt over there, and I was feeling really bad,

444
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know if I could stay here.

445
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: I finally called Larry back after about six months, and

446
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: I said, Larry, you're still interested. He says, yes, come over,

447
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 2: he says, and bring and get whoever you want. So

448
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: I came, and I started calling the people who had

449
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: worked with me and for me my previous life, and

450
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: they started coming one by one and including my including

451
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: my partner, I Rapstein, and a whole bunch of them

452
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: came and I've been with the firm ever since. It's

453
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: an incredible firm. The broad knowledge and experience and quality

454
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: of lawyer here is phenomenal. It's a big firm, but

455
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: doesn't function like a big firm as far as we're concerned,

456
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: and I treat our department as a boutique that sits

457
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: in a big firm. They have made the experience quite well,

458
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: quite excellent. You feel like they're giving you the reins

459
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: and saying you run with it. It's yours. And that's

460
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: how it's been.

461
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: So how many years at Manat and how many years

462
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: at Greenberg DrAk.

463
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: I was a man at about six to seven, I

464
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: can't remember exactly. And here I've been here about twenty

465
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: years a little over.

466
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: Okay. So when you had fifty with Cooper, Epstein and Horoitz,

467
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: fifty attorneys, and you said you either had to be

468
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: smaller or larger, what are the advantages of now being

469
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: with a larger firm?

470
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: The advantage of being larger firm than I found here

471
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: is the expertise that you can find. There's an x.

472
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: They have an expert on everything. I don't care what

473
00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: it is. You can send out emails I need an

474
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: expert on horse maneur in Colorado, and you'll get fifty

475
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: year responses. I'm exaggerating slightly, obviously, but there's an expert

476
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: on everything here. The quality of lawyer is phenomenal. The

477
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 2: willingness to share and help is phenomenal. They give you

478
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 2: the reins and they say it's yours. You do what

479
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: you want to do. They're not telling you how to practice,

480
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: they're not limiting your abilities to practice. Be straight, but

481
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: follow the law, do what to do, it's right, be honest,

482
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: and they give you the tools. And that's all anybody

483
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: can ask.

484
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: And what's it like working for somebody else? Is supposed

485
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: to working for yourself.

486
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm working for myself. I don't feel

487
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: like I'm working for somebody else. If you want to

488
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: know the truth.

489
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so what year did you merge with Epstein and Herwitz?

490
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: When when did that happen?

491
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: Ha? Well, I didn't merge with it. I mean I

492
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: chuck Herwitz. I hired I told you he works for me,

493
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: and I made him that. I made him a partner.

494
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: We merged with he had about three lawyers. What year

495
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: would that be It would take me a while to

496
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: compute that. I can't remember. But let's say I've been

497
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: here twenty some odd years. I was in mentat about

498
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: six to seven years and see ten years there. Probably

499
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: we were together previously twenty twenty five years.

500
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: I would say, okay, so now you're practicing law. Music

501
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: is unfortunately just a hobby. And you say, you hire

502
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: Chuck Herwitz to do the stuff walks in. It's not entertainment.

503
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: How broad is your entertainment practice? How much is television

504
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: movies music?

505
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: Fifty percent is music and fifty percent would be television

506
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: and motion picture.

507
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: And has it continued like that?

508
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: Yes?

509
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: And for the uninitiated, what is the difference in those

510
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: two areas. What's the difference in terms of how do

511
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: you see it in terms of the music business in

512
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: the movie business.

513
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can tell you. I could tell you that

514
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: straightforward way, which is, in order to be an entertainment

515
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: lawyer in these fields, you have to know the business

516
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: of what you're in. You have to know the business

517
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: of the motion picture business. The business of television, the

518
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: business of music. In other words, you have to know

519
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: in record business, how records are made, how they're distributed,

520
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: what the wholesale is, what retail is, where the money

521
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: is flowing from? What a licensing of the music rights?

522
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: What is it costs for all of that? Uh is

523
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: a What does a record company earn when they sell

524
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: a record or today when they're licensing streaming services? What

525
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: do they get? What are the deals? Same thing in

526
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: motion pictures and television you have to know what does

527
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: the director get. What are the fees for directors? What

528
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: are the fees for producers? What are the fees for writers?

529
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: What does it cost to get an actor? What are

530
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: the residuals? What are net profits? What are adjusted gross profits?

531
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: What are the deductions can what are the various definitions

532
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: what can be deducted from all You have to know

533
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: the business, not only the law that affects it, not

534
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: only copy. Remember, you have to know copyright because that's

535
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: the very foundation of our businesses. Copyright. Copyright is the

536
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: reason there is a motion picture business, or a music business,

537
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: or television business, because it gives you a copyright, which

538
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: gives you ownership, protection of intellectual property rights. So you

539
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: have to understand in you have to understand copyright and

540
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: copyright law. An example of copyright is the copyright. The

541
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: Copyright Act is probably, I don't know, one hundred pages,

542
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: two hundred pages Nimber on copyright, which is the major

543
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: authority on copyright. It is twelve volumes interpreting the copyright law. Okay,

544
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: twelve very thick volumes interpreting that that small little copyright law,

545
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: if you will. Then, as I say, you have to

546
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: understand the business of the motion pictures and television and music,

547
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 2: how the product is distributed, how it's sold, how you

548
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: earn your money, who are the recipients of the money.

549
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: So you are not just a lawyer, You're a You're

550
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: a business person because you have to understand the entire

551
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: business of what you are in. And each of them

552
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: are different. There's a different different music and television and

553
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: motion pictures because the product is different, the creation of

554
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: the product is different, the distribution of the product is different,

555
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: and the moneies that you received from them is different.

556
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: So did you just learn through experience or do you

557
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: read trade papers? How do you keep up?

558
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: You have experience, but you read everything, reading every day.

559
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: You read the trades, you read the latest publications, you

560
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: read the latest litigation lawsuits, you read the decisions. You

561
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: read as much as you can about the latest deal making.

562
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: You attend seminars, you review, you go to you go

563
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: to various conferences. There's no ent toy. There's no end

564
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 2: to learning in this business. There's no time in which

565
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: you say I know it. There's no time in which

566
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: you know it at all. There will always be.

567
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: Now, this is your profession for a long time. Yes,

568
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: do you like it? Do you enjoy it?

569
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: I love it, and I enjoy it. I love it.

570
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: It's why I'm still doing it.

571
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Let's just assume you were

572
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: working solely and I came in and I said, oh,

573
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: I have a recording contract or I'm an actor in

574
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: a movie. Do you still draft the contracts or do

575
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: you just make the deal and then subsidiary attorneys would

576
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: get it on paper, so to speak.

577
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: Well, at this point I have great associates for me

578
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: that are doing drafting and things of that nature. We

579
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 2: have our forms that we accumulated over the years. They're constant,

580
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: they're always out of date the day you draw them.

581
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: They're out of date. So we're constantly reviewing it. Fortunately

582
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: I'm not doing a whole lot of drafting, but I

583
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: have great associates that are doing the drafting. But at

584
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: one point I did the drafting, I did the reviewing

585
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: and all that. When I first entered the business record,

586
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: contracts are three pages. They're now seventy eighty pages. Law

587
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 2: motion picture contracts used to be very simple, very very

588
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: straight ahead. Now there are hundreds of pages along When

589
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: you do it, when you do a deal, and sometimes

590
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: first I have some clients that do producing, directing, acting, producing, directing,

591
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: ake writing, Well, it's it's you now fill about several

592
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 2: volumes of what those contracts are.

593
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: Okay, you're practicing law. As I say, you create your

594
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: own forms. To a great degree, the attorney is seeing

595
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 1: possibilities down the road, and on both sides of the fence,

596
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: both the companies and the talent have not foreseen certain things.

597
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: So to what creed do you try to dot every I,

598
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: cross every T How do you stop? And if you

599
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 1: ever had regrets that you haven't included or four seen.

600
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 2: Something, well, you're always trying to anticipate, and of course

601
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 2: that's what the industry is now going through with AI, right.

602
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: I don't think that was much anticipated some time ago,

603
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: and people have been thinking about it in the last

604
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: couple of years a little bit. It's being addressed. You're

605
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: always learning, and you're always playing catch up, and you're

606
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: always going back and look at your contracts and see,

607
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 2: you think we have covered this if we go back

608
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: and take a look all the time. I can't say

609
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: that were anybody is or we are flawless in that regard,

610
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 2: but we certainly attempt to cover the bases and try

611
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: and anticipate what is coming. That's why we go to seminars,

612
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: That's why we talk to people, That's why we review

613
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: all of the latest articles on all of this thing

614
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: and see what's happening, and then delve into our contracts

615
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: and see whether we've covered the basis.

616
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: Now, in music, there are many attorneys who charge a percentage,

617
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: usually five percent. How do people go by hourly? How

618
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: do you do it?

619
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 2: I've done it both ways, and.

620
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 1: What are the advantages disadvantages to both?

621
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: Okay, the advantage and disadvantage to percentage is I've talked

622
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: to a number of clients, a number of attorneys on

623
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: this twenty percent of your clients pay for pay for

624
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: the other eighty percent. Okay, Usually when you take percentages,

625
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: if you're taking only percentages, it's twenty percent of the

626
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: clients who pay for the pay the bill. Hourly is

627
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: straight straight ahead. You're either getting paid or say goodbye.

628
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: They're either paid the hours. So some clients we have

629
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: on percentage. Some clients we have an hourly. There are

630
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 2: a number of particularly the boutique the smaller firms almost

631
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 2: exclusively do five percenters are five percenters, they do very well.

632
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: They do very well, but are they winning all the time. No,

633
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: they're winning, but twenty percent better pay the bills for

634
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: the eighty Because we are a full service firm, in

635
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: which boutiques are not. So we do litigation right. Boutiques

636
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: do not do litigation. That's hourly. There rarely is that percentage.

637
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: Rarely is that percentage. Mostly that is our corporate work.

638
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 2: We do corporate work. Boutiques don't do corporork's that's our

639
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: that's hourly type of work. Trademark is hourly type of work.

640
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: So it all depends on what it is. The advantage

641
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: of a big firmish you can do both. You can

642
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: do some clients on hourly, and some clients on percentage.

643
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: Okay, this is a business entertainment in general that is

644
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: shady when it comes to payment. So let's say you're

645
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,479
Speaker 1: on a five percent how do you know that you're

646
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: actually getting five percent of the total.

647
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully, if you're representing a client, you are representing

648
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: a client that you can trust. I recommend that very much.

649
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: I wrote. By the way, I wrote an article many

650
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: years ago for the Hollywood Reporter. It said. The article

651
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 2: was this, I can tell by meeting somebody a client,

652
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 2: let's say somebody who is a client of somebody, who

653
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: the lawyer is, because clients choose lawyers would like personalities.

654
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: By and large, Okay, I wrote that article. It was

655
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: a long time ago. And in other way, somebody who's dishonest,

656
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: do they want an honest lawyer who is going to

657
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: tell them that they're dishonest? They don't. They wanted somebody

658
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: to see what they see. If they're a paranoid personality,

659
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: they want to find a lawyer who sees the same

660
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: things that they say. And well, it's not absolutely true

661
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: at all. And the thing was a humorous article. By

662
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: and large, there's a lot of truth to that fact.

663
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: They both choose lawyers that are few things the way

664
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: they do thinks, and I think we all generally wanted

665
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: to represent somebody that we feel are good people and

666
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: pay attention to their to their profession and their honest people.

667
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so you come into the business. Recording is going

668
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: on pretty much the beginnings, the beginning of the century, movies,

669
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 1: television that time, there's some major changes. Let's just focus

670
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: on the music business for a change. The Beatles come along,

671
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: and they sell more product than anybody previously. Rock comes along,

672
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: Rock starts in the early fifties, sort of fades around

673
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: the decade of the City seem it is a huge resurgence.

674
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: How does this ultimately affect the contracts in the practice

675
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: of law.

676
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: Well, Uh, a selling of a record is the selling

677
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 2: of a record. I don't care whether it's a Beatles

678
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 2: record or an Elvis Presley record or Frank Sorata record.

679
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: The selling of a record is still the same the business,

680
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: the business aspect is still the same. Uh. The some

681
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: of the players are different. Some of the players are different.

682
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: Some of the people who handle U tip top are

683
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: different than the people who are who are handling classical music.

684
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 2: It's an example. Okay, there are different players with different

685
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: philosophies and different and different business models. So again you

686
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 2: have to understand the business that you're in, which bit

687
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: it is. So the music business has many, many fascets.

688
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: It has a there's a classical music business, and I

689
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: represent several major classical artists. There's a classical music business.

690
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 2: There's a pop music business. There's a jazz musical business. Uh,

691
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: there's a really been blues business. They're different, the numbers

692
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: are different, the deals are different, Uh, the payments are different.

693
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: So you have to So you have to learn all

694
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: these different fields. Simply because it's music doesn't mean there's

695
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: one standard fits all. It doesn't, and one contract doesn't

696
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: fit all. It doesn't. The contracts are different, the style

697
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: of making business is different. The people on the other

698
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: side are different. The classical music people are different people

699
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: than the pop music people. They don't think alike. They

700
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 2: think differently, They think in different numbers and in different

701
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: ways of doing business. So the music business much like

702
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: the motion picture but the telephon, they're it's segregated in

703
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: it in and of itself. So you could talk to

704
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: the three executives and the music business from different genres.

705
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: They're thinking differently and their deals are different.

706
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So, but the Rocket Hero starts to flourish in

707
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: the mid sixties and ultimately contracts change. Okay, there's so

708
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: many issues. A. Did the record company want the publishing, B,

709
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: cross collateralization, C free goods, D the raw royalty percentage,

710
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: accounting windows. Was that evolving generally and you evolved with it?

711
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: Or did you have certain acts you made a stand

712
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: such that you were moving the ball for artistry further

713
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 1: down the playing field.

714
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: Well, the deals became when the when the record companies

715
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: went to what they called the three sixty deal, that's

716
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 2: probably what you're talking about, in which they not only

717
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: had wanted the record, they wanted the publishing, they wanted

718
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: the touring, they wanted their acting moneies, they wanted everything

719
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: else like that. A number of us was out alone,

720
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: A number of us set up and said hold it,

721
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: hold it, holdly. This is this is an overreach. Okay,

722
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 2: this is a major overreach. There was a lot of

723
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: fights about that. Uh at the beginning, we thought there

724
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: was a grab by the companies at that particular time.

725
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: Uh.

726
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: They they viewed it as they were creating an actor

727
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 2: or had an opportunity to earn all this money, et cetera.

728
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: And so they see there were they were a partner

729
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: in that or participant in that. They wanted to share

730
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: that we are the talent side represented. The talent said, well,

731
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: wait a minute, you didn't. There's nothing about this. What

732
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: you've done is contributed that. Yes, your business is the

733
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: record business. Your business is not touring, Your business is

734
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 2: not movies, your business is not publishing. It's not fair.

735
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 2: That battle goes on, that goes onto this, that goes

736
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: on to this day as to how far you could go.

737
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: Do remember that in the motion picture industry they used

738
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: to have they used to have contracts seven year contracts

739
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: are more with actors, and they would hire them and

740
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: they would become they would become the employees, if you will,

741
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 2: literally of the studio. And there became a revolution amongst

742
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: the actor talent that no, that wasn't that wasn't very good,

743
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: and they used what was called then the seven year

744
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: statue to get out of these contracts. And the studios

745
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: that eventually said, well, why are we keeping all these

746
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: people on salary? And that was so it had a

747
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: dual response, which was some people said gee, i'd like this,

748
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: I like the weekly salary, and others say no, I'm

749
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: free now to work for any studio I want. Not simple,

750
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: but actors. Actors, when they finally got rid of the

751
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 2: seven year contracts, they started making moneies which they're getting

752
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: up to the twenty million plus salaries and making deals

753
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: because they weren't tied.

754
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: Okay, let's stay with the movie business. Be in ultimately

755
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: visual entertainment. So in the late sixties and into the seventies,

756
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: the game flips where the talent gains an amazing amount

757
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: of control. So tell us what it was like then

758
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: and what it's really like today.

759
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,479
Speaker 2: Well, when the talent found they got in control, would

760
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 2: you have the Tom Cruises, et cetera. Who will become

761
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: necessary to open a film? Right, it all became. It

762
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: all became about opening a film. Previous to that period

763
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 2: of time, they would put out a film. It would stay,

764
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: it would stay on the boards or stay at as

765
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: theaters for a long time. Now you got to make

766
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: your money over the first few weekends to see if

767
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: it's really sustained the film. When they found that it

768
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 2: was certain actors like a Tom Cruise as an example,

769
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: they that they could open a film and all of

770
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: a sudden make millions on a weekend, multi millions on

771
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: a weekend. The actors then all of a sudden gained power.

772
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: They said, you want me for your film, this is

773
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: what they're going to have to pay. And the salaries

774
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 2: rose the ten million a picture to fifteen million a picture,

775
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: the twenty million of picture and had more because the

776
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: film's companies finally decided they really needed this actor to

777
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: open the film. And so whether it was Julia Roberts

778
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 2: or whoever, these were the people that the studio started

779
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 2: to look for and realized that the and the actors

780
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 2: started to realize that they need us. And so the

781
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 2: attorneys who representative took advantage on their behalf to maximize

782
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: the income that they were receiving, including the back end payments,

783
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: which is now under challenge. The back end payments is

784
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: a big subject right now and probably is the big

785
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 2: subject of the strikes right now, the back end payments,

786
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: because when you get it to certain certain production companies

787
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: today who won't pay a back end. Back end, of course,

788
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 2: is the money you get for future distribution, future exploitation

789
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: of the film, and so if you have a percentage

790
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 2: of the film you're going to get paid on that.

791
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: Some people are making more money from the back what

792
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: they call the back end, than they are from their

793
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 2: front up front fees. And that's the current battle that

794
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 2: goes out to this day.

795
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: Okay, if you read the trades the business public, they

796
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: say that talent prices have gone down in the theatrical

797
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: business because certain name talent is not opened films, and

798
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: some of these films, especially the Marvel movies, et cetera,

799
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: it's less important who the talent is. Have you experienced this.

800
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: I haven't personally experienced it, but I understand it. Some

801
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: of those are Yeah, some of the films of Marble films,

802
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 2: I understand. Whether they say people going to go see

803
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: whether no matter who's in there. I don't know if

804
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 2: they're completely if that's completely true or not. I haven't

805
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: been able to I haven't examined any figures to that

806
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: aspect of it. But I don't underestimate the power of

807
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: the draw of certain talent in this business.

808
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so let you know where the talent is on

809
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: strike right now. By time this year is who knows.

810
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: Theoretically a deal could be made, but let's just talk theore.

811
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: In the old days, the back end was such that

812
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: you went to varying platforms. Maybe you were on network,

813
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: then you went into syndication, then you went into physical

814
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: with DVDs, vhs. Whereas with Netflix, let's say they might

815
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: buy out the product and only have it on their platform,

816
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: so you could have a contract with externalities if they

817
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: distributed elsewhere. But if the product is paid for by

818
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: Netflix and sits on Netflix, how would we construct the

819
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: back end?

820
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 2: Netflix, to my knowledge, does not pay it back end.

821
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: Right, But as a representative of talent and the talent

822
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 1: is looking for more money, do you see any way

823
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: to do that?

824
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: No? Back Netflix is a great company, but they have

825
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 2: their own business model, and their business model does not

826
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: call for a back end at all. And they have

827
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,399
Speaker 2: an unusual book they call it back in in which

828
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: they pay you negotiate a deal with them for a number,

829
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: and they take twenty percent of that number, and hey,

830
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: that's your back end, and we'll pay that out within

831
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: two for over the two years after the film has

832
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 2: been distributed. That's been my experience with them.

833
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: And is that twenty performance based No? Okay, let's talk

834
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: about theatrical in general. You're a student of the game.

835
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: What is the future of theatrical We obviously had the pandemic.

836
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: Business is not completely recovered. The stocks of the theaters

837
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 1: have gone up and down. The major studios are making

838
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: less product. By the same token, there's more indepredent product

839
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: than ever, although a lot of it does not get

840
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: theatrical distribution. What's going to happen here in the future.

841
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 2: Well, I can't predict the future. It's right now very uncertain. Uh.

842
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 2: The I like to go to I like to go

843
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: to the movies. Will the public continue to like to

844
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 2: go into the movies? I don't know. We had a

845
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 2: great I think you know, we had a great theater

846
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: complex in Hollywood, the arc Line Theaters in Hollywood, and

847
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: that a lot of us used to like to go to.

848
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 2: Very much gone. I don't know if it's ever going

849
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: to come back, but it's gone. The enthusiasm of going

850
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: to theaters seems to be less. With the exception of

851
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: Barbie Oppenheimer. So those are so those are two I've

852
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: only I've seen Oppenheimer. I've not seen Barbie yet, but

853
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 2: some of the some of the the people that work

854
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: here have seen Barbie multiple times. They adore the film,

855
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: and with good reason. I've heard nothing but great things

856
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: at every in every corner, and Oppenheimer was an incredible film.

857
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 2: But I don't know how many Oppenheimer's or Barbies there's

858
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 2: going to be. It's going to draw people to the theaters,

859
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 2: So I don't know. It's a hard one. I like

860
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: to go to the theaters. A lot of people have

861
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 2: got used to sitting at home and watching the thing

862
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: at home on their couch. What they'll like in the future,

863
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think we're in between now and

864
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 2: I don't know where it's going to come out.

865
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, the agencies, let's leave music aside, where the

866
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: agent really just books live dates. But the agents in

867
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: the visual entertainment field, needless to say, Mike Ovitz comes

868
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: in and has a lot of control packaging, etc. But

869
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: in terms of deals, not everybody has an agent. How

870
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: do you interact with the agencies?

871
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: Oh, well, A good portion of my clients are represented

872
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: by agencies, and the agencies have been very good. They're

873
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 2: out there. We don't go out there looking for jobs

874
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: for these people. Okay, we don't know, at least I

875
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: could speak for myself. I don't know what films are

876
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 2: on the boards that they're looking for talent, and at

877
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: which companies are looking for talent. That's that's what the

878
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: good agents know. They know what Paramount has got on

879
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: the boards. They know what Disney's got on the boards,

880
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: they know what Universal, they know what's coming up, and

881
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: they know where to call there and put up their

882
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 2: clients for the opportunities at those places. We don't know that.

883
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: The agents know that the ages are very good at that,

884
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 2: and so we work with the agents is far with

885
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: our clients because they know what's coming up and all that,

886
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 2: and they've made multiple deals, so their input all the time.

887
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 2: We may have our ideas what the deal is worth,

888
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 2: the agents also have their ideas and it's valuable input.

889
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 2: I have nothing but respect for the good agencies because

890
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: they're on the front lines where we are not.

891
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: Okay, let's flip it over to the music business. For

892
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: a long time there, the last decades of the twentieth century,

893
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,760
Speaker 1: it was all about the major labels and major label

894
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: recording contracts. A to what degree is out of percentage

895
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: of your business today.

896
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 2: That would be less than fifty percent, Maybe it's around

897
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: fifty percent, maybe a little less.

898
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 1: And we talked about the three sixty. How have those

899
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: contracts change? I mean there are a lot of ways.

900
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean, in the days of physical products, certainly the CD,

901
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: you have these huge advances and all sorts of other things.

902
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: So what's a recording contract like today?

903
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 2: It's pretty much pretty much the same question is are

904
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 2: they willing to put out as a company willing to

905
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: put out as much money today as they were? And

906
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: that'll vary, that'll vary with the talent. There's I don't

907
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: I don't know of a measure on that one. If somebody,

908
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: if there's three record companies or four record companies want

909
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: you're artists, it is one one type of thing. If

910
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 2: there's one record company that wants are artist, it's a

911
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: different deal. I don't think that has changed that much.

912
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's assume I'm making a deal with a

913
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: major label. What kind of streaming rate can I get?

914
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 2: Streaming rate? Okay? That's a that's a that's a that's

915
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: a daily question around here. The maximum anybody is paid,

916
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: and there some of them are paying it, it's at

917
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 2: fifty percent of what proceeeds Okay, domestically for forty foreign Okay,

918
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 2: at source as source. Not everybody's going to get that.

919
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: That's that's a relatively few we'll get that, but it's

920
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: it's possible to get a number of the companies. A

921
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: number of the companies are paying at thirty five and

922
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 2: forty and those forty forty domestic thirty five for some

923
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 2: are paying less than that. The big problem we all have.

924
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 2: The big problem is not the new deals, but the

925
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 2: existing deals that were that were sitting there, in which

926
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 2: the record companies are paying streaming rate and the same

927
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: as they were paying for the CD rate. So if

928
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 2: the CD rate was twenty percent or twenty five percent,

929
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: that's what they're paying. So we're fighting with the labels

930
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: to say, hey, wait a minute, it's unfair this time

931
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 2: and this business and what you're making on it. You

932
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 2: got to rethink it. You got to come to the

933
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: table and renegotiate this thing. Every company has their own

934
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 2: philosophy on it. But that's the type of discussion that

935
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: should be had. Okay, even though somebody is there is

936
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: getting a streaming rate of twenty or twenty five percent,

937
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 2: they should be having a conversation with the label, Hey

938
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 2: that's not fair, because it isn't because they don't have

939
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 2: many factory, they don't have storage, shipping, they don't have storage,

940
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 2: they don't have any of the things that they used

941
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: to have with with a CD. They it. Basically, My

942
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: position is it's a license. It's all it is. They

943
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 2: exercise the license. Yes, they do some promotion, and no

944
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: question they do promotion. But the rate, in my personal

945
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: opinion is anything lower than forty or fifty percent is wrong.

946
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: And we make calls and everybody else is doing the

947
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 2: same thing, main calls. Hey, it's time to rethink this

948
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: with the with the labels. But I think for any

949
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 2: decent act, forty to fifty percent domesticated and throughound thirty

950
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 2: to thirty five or forty percent four and is what

951
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 2: is the goal? Everybody's not going to get it?

952
00:59:53,240 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: So are these there are no deductions on the fifty Okay,

953
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: So let's say I have an historic contract and they're

954
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: paying me a low rate. Many people don't have any leverage.

955
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: So how do you get these labels to cough up more.

956
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: Go out and buy an AK forty seven?

957
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: No?

958
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: You you try your best. I you know, you try

959
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 2: your best. If they really love the artists and they're

960
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 2: really interested in the artists. They want to keep a

961
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 2: happy artist, and most labels want to keep a happy artist.

962
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 2: You go in on that basis you don't have any leverage,

963
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 2: but you're going to say, look, it's not fair. Well,

964
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 2: they're not fair. Work always work. It won't always work,

965
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 2: but it will work. Sometimes it will work. Sometimes. I've

966
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 2: seen one label very positively when you have legendary, legendary

967
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: artists on the label come to the table and say, yeah,

968
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: we gotta make it right.

969
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: Okay. There have been all these issues in the music

970
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: business of contracts that have not foreseen the future. To

971
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: what degree do you have artists who have contracts there

972
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: are now revenue streams that were not foreseen in the contract,

973
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 1: which raise questions in bargaining power. How often does that happen?

974
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 2: It happens. I mean, look at all the contracts that

975
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 2: were done before there were streaming, lots of them. And

976
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 2: I'm doing battle right now. These are contracts I inherited

977
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 2: with a couple labels and say, we got up these

978
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 2: streaming rays. It's not fair to be paying twenty percent

979
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: royalty for streaming. It's just not right. And while right

980
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 2: now I'm in these conversations, I haven't received the know

981
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 2: what I'm receiving is we're reviewing it. I keep hearing

982
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 2: we're reviewing it. Well, I think the review time is over.

983
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 2: Let's get to something. But it's worth the conversation, and

984
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: everybody should have that conversation.

985
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: Okay, there are issues. We have a lot of acts

986
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:25,439
Speaker 1: that have they had to re re record it, like Aerosmith, whatever,

987
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: ye haven't you? You get to write a reversion after

988
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,439
Speaker 1: twenty five years on the original albums because they didn't

989
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: foresee any economic value after twenty five years. So when

990
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: you make a deal today, okay, is there any reversion

991
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: of the copyright? Can that be negotiated? What are the

992
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: terms there?

993
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: Negotiating the reversion is very tough. You have to have

994
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 2: a superstar to do that, to get an ownership. But

995
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 2: absent that, under the Copyright Act, there's a thirty five

996
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 2: year termination for any recordings that are done after nineteen

997
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 2: seventy eight. Okay, released after nineteen seventy eight under the

998
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 2: Copyright Act, so you can get it back. Now, here's

999
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 2: what's going on with that. Copyright Act of nineteen seventy

1000
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight provides for this or in nineteen seventy six,

1001
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 2: commencing in nineteen seventy eight. The Copyright Act prize for

1002
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 2: a thirty five termination right under the old Act, the

1003
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 2: previous Act, it was a fifty six year termination. Fifty

1004
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 2: six year termination. So you said, now you're coming up,

1005
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 2: you got two You got two years before the thirty

1006
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 2: five years to send your notice. You got to give

1007
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: a two year notice and it's a five year period

1008
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 2: of which you have to send it. But the termination

1009
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 2: would be between thirty five to forty years. So you

1010
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: send your notice. The first thing happens is the record

1011
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 2: companies say, no, you're not in time too, because it's

1012
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 2: a work for hire, work for hire, work for higher

1013
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 2: provision in the Copyright Act says that they own it

1014
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 2: and they own it in perpetuity, but nothing. There's no

1015
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 2: termination right for work for hire. However, here's the situation.

1016
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 2: It's long and a complicated reason. Under the Copyright Act,

1017
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 2: there are nine categories that work for hire, nine categories.

1018
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 2: Sound recordings are not one of the nine categories. Audio

1019
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 2: visual works are one of the nine categories. As an example,

1020
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: the collective works are a category but doesn't say sound recordings.

1021
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: In the year to nineteen ninety nine, the RIAA Record

1022
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 2: Industry Association of America got Congress to add a tenth

1023
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: category sound recordings to the list of to the list

1024
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 2: of nine categories which made sound recordings that work for hire,

1025
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 2: which means you could terminate number of us. It was

1026
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 2: Cheryl Crow, Don Henley Irving Azoff and I got involved

1027
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 2: myself on behalf of Cheryl, and we protested the Congress

1028
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 2: that they shouldn't have passed this law. Okay, it was

1029
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 2: included in a one thousand page stock television amendment. Okay,

1030
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: that's where it was included. I contacted Howard Berman and

1031
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 2: then Howard Kobel. They were the Howard Cobel was the

1032
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 2: chairman of the Appropriate Committee and Howard Berman was the

1033
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 2: ranking member. They decided to hold hearings on this thing.

1034
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 2: I got Cheryl Crow to go back and testify. I

1035
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 2: went and testified, and this is the year two thousand.

1036
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 2: The year two thousand, we had dueling professors. Helen Rosen

1037
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 2: was the head of the RAA at that time. She testified.

1038
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: We had a professor. They had a professor carry grat

1039
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 2: carry grad. Kerry Sherman was the general consul for the

1040
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: ra He testified on the other side and it became

1041
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 2: very clear to Coward Coble and Howard Berman that they

1042
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 2: made a mistake. They shouldn't have They shouldn't have passed

1043
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 2: this without a hearing, with no hearing when they passed that.

1044
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 2: So they called Kerry Sherman to myself into a room

1045
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: and they said, they said, come up with language to

1046
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 2: remove this language. And we came up with language. It

1047
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 2: took her quite a while. The two of us came

1048
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 2: up with the language. They finally passed it, and so

1049
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 2: sound recordings was removed as a tenth category. Notwithstanding that fact,

1050
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: the the record companies to this day claim when you

1051
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 2: send your termination notice that it's worked for hire and

1052
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 2: therefore there's no right to terminate. There's litigation pending on

1053
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 2: this which has not been There is no resulve, and

1054
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 2: the record companies refuse to acknowledge that there's a right

1055
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 2: of termination. You're saying the is a collective work and

1056
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 2: therefore it falls within the falls within the ten nine categories.

1057
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 2: As I say, there's no result in litigation. So what

1058
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 2: happens on when you send your termination notice? They say

1059
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 2: you have no right to terminate, but let's talk, and

1060
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 2: then they generally will negotiate and the advance and negotiate

1061
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 2: higher royalties and things of that nature. And there's no

1062
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 2: consistent way it's done, and they're all Every record company

1063
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 2: is different, Every record company attrius it differently. That's the

1064
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: state of the art. There's no answer to that question

1065
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 2: except the record companies maintained it is a work for

1066
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 2: hire and there's no right to termine it.

1067
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: Okay, do you anticipate one of these cases going to trial.

1068
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 2: There's two pending out there.

1069
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, let's go back to the recording contract. Used

1070
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 1: to be that lawyers would shop deals. Is that still

1071
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: a factor at all? Or how many people come in

1072
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: and say the label's interest in me, I need a lawyer.

1073
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 2: Well, if the label is interested, they're not shopping. No,

1074
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 2: I won't. I won't shop I don't know how many

1075
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 2: attorneys are doing it shopping at this point. I won't

1076
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 2: do it. The reason why we don't, I'll tell you why.

1077
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 2: The reason we don't do it myself and everybody else

1078
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 2: probably similar, which is the one thing we have is access.

1079
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 2: I can call over and get somebody on the phone.

1080
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 2: But if I'm calling up to find out if they

1081
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: if they're interested in my latest deal. They're not going

1082
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 2: to be answering the phone. We need, we need access

1083
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 2: and shopping is the worst thing you can do because

1084
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 2: now they don't want to take their call because they

1085
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 2: don't they don't like to say a lot of people

1086
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 2: they don't like to say no. They don't like to

1087
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 2: tell you no. So I stay away. I'm sure a

1088
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 2: lot of people are that stay away from shopping. It's bad.

1089
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to do it. But if the label

1090
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 2: says I'm interested, I said, then I'll call them and say, okay,

1091
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,839
Speaker 2: I'll talk to you now now.

1092
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 1: But there are fewer major labels who are putting out

1093
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: less product. Yeah, so basically everybody walks through the door

1094
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: has a deal or do you have other acts who

1095
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: say I'm doing incredible on the road. I don't want

1096
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 1: to make a major label deal, but I need representation.

1097
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 2: Well I can give representation. Well, I'm not going to shop,

1098
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 2: but maybe I can get them to a manager or

1099
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 2: to somebody who will do that. A good manager. There

1100
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 2: are good there are good managers who will do will

1101
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: do that with with talent, they will do that, and

1102
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 2: that's fine. I don't want to have my name attached

1103
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 2: to it. I'm sure there's a lot of otheritorians feel

1104
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 2: the same way. Don't want to shop.

1105
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 1: How about the other thing in California where we've had

1106
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:02,679
Speaker 1: this issue for sixty years now, where if someone who's

1107
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 1: not an attorney or licensed talent agent gets work, the

1108
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: contract can be voided and no money is owed. What's

1109
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 1: the status of that and what's your experience.

1110
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 2: That hasn't That hasn't changed. Uh, that hasn't changed at all.

1111
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 2: An agent has licensed to to solicit work, okay, and

1112
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 2: if you don't, if you don't have that, your you're

1113
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 2: at risk. There have been cases on that subject. I

1114
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 2: haven't had that discussion for quite some time, but there

1115
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 2: was who's named Matthew kates H exactly right? Oh god,

1116
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 2: the name came out on where that name came out.

1117
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's it. Uh, there has I haven't had much.

1118
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 2: I haven't seen much of that lately because I guess

1119
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 2: talent or I actually have anybody who will go try

1120
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:06,479
Speaker 2: and shop shop for them, and they will. I feel

1121
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 2: sorry for talent because it's hard for them to get

1122
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 2: doors open to them, and it's hard to get into

1123
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 2: the agencies because the agencies are busy, they they're responsible

1124
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 2: for the any talent that they have, and so some

1125
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:23,919
Speaker 2: of them are. It's hard to get into the agency,

1126
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,720
Speaker 2: hard to get an agent, and they're not easy, so

1127
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 2: the attorneys are not doing it. It's difficult to get

1128
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:31,519
Speaker 2: an agent. So when you find someone who's willing to

1129
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: put their put themselves out there, nobody's trying to nobody's

1130
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 2: right now trying to kill those people who are trying

1131
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 2: to say no, don't do that, because the talent has

1132
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 2: nowhere else to go. The only thing the talent can

1133
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 2: do is keep performing showcases right and hopefully somebody shows

1134
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:54,720
Speaker 2: up that that might be interested in them. But it's

1135
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:56,879
Speaker 2: not easy. But so what we can do is sometimes

1136
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 2: refer them to a manager, who is if we think

1137
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:04,840
Speaker 2: something is really good, we'll refer to a manager, and

1138
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:12,639
Speaker 2: the managers go ahead and notwithstanding the law, because nobody's

1139
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,759
Speaker 2: really interested and going after managers for trying to shop.

1140
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 2: There's nobody interested in that because there's nowhere else the

1141
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 2: talent has to look.

1142
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, there are certain managers who have handshake agreements,

1143
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 1: others have contracts. What do you advise the talent and

1144
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,719
Speaker 1: what has been your experience in terms of what whether

1145
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: people want a contract or not?

1146
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 2: Well, what type of person wants to contract?

1147
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 1: Let's say you're representing talent. Talent now has a manager, right,

1148
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: some managers want paper, other managers don't. Do you advise

1149
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: the act one way or another? And if there is paper,

1150
01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 1: what are the key points you're negotiating?

1151
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 2: Well, I think there probably should be a paper the

1152
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 2: keyboard are the royalties? Are the bed's a commission? I

1153
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 2: should say, what's the commission? How long is the contract?

1154
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 2: The big things are, yeah, what's the commission? And how long?

1155
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 2: And how long is the contract? And is there a

1156
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 2: sunset clause? Right?

1157
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So just going back to the record companies. You know,

1158
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 1: sixty years ago you had two albums a year. The

1159
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 1: total might be of the contract seven years might be

1160
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 1: fourteen albums. What is what are the deliverables today? And

1161
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: what are the terms today?

1162
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 2: Well, lucky if you get one album a year now,

1163
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:46,560
Speaker 2: and usually the contracts are the contracts are usually a

1164
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 2: lens of about how many albums? There's the four albums

1165
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 2: are the five albums and six albums and the seven albums?

1166
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 2: There were contracts years ago. We all remember contracts of

1167
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 2: twenty albums and twenty two albums and twenty four albums

1168
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 2: and things like that. Today it's usually somewhere between five

1169
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 2: to five to six to seven albums, sometimes four, a

1170
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 2: lot less than what it a lot less to what

1171
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:17,760
Speaker 2: it used to be. That's probably more typical somewhere there

1172
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 2: usually five somewhere between five to seven albums, which is

1173
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 2: still a lot on behalf of talent. I'd like to

1174
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 2: see less. I'd like to see the more than four

1175
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:26,799
Speaker 2: quite frankly.

1176
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 1: Okay. Then we have the seven year clause, and the

1177
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 1: issue is whether it's it's been seven years the label

1178
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:37,519
Speaker 1: argue haven't delivered all the product. But we did have

1179
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 1: one act of then sevenfold who left Warner and went

1180
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: to Capital. What are your thoughts on that now?

1181
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 2: Okay, I've got definite thoughts on that. Okay. California, we

1182
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 2: have a seven year statue. Seven years statute applies to

1183
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:57,559
Speaker 2: everybody in the state of California. Seven years. And there

1184
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 2: was a famous case on there is oliviited to Havel

1185
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 2: then get Warner Brothers. And although she was put on

1186
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 2: suspension because she didn't perform in certain things, the court

1187
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:14,519
Speaker 2: said in California, seven years mean seven years. Okay, seven

1188
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:17,479
Speaker 2: years mean seven years. Seven years. She's out, whether she

1189
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:21,600
Speaker 2: performed or not. Now here's another battle we had with

1190
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 2: the recording artist coalition, which I helped form. We had

1191
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 2: the battle of the one in the Congress I told

1192
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 2: you about, and then this was the second battle. So

1193
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 2: Ora comes into California and says, uha, seven years should

1194
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 2: not apply to the record industry, and if they don't,

1195
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:47,360
Speaker 2: it should be. They first came in and said it

1196
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 2: should be ten years for record people. Ten years eventually

1197
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 2: what And I went up there on behalf of a

1198
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 2: number of artists to oppose that legend. Uh. The uh

1199
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 2: it passed and it passed anyway. Uh. And their argument was, well,

1200
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 2: the artist is not delivering all the stuff we should

1201
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 2: we should they should not be allowed out of their contract. Uh.

1202
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 2: But seven years applies to everybody else in California. Why

1203
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 2: shouldn't have applied the recording artists that placed the actors

1204
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 2: applies to everybody else. Their arguments said, well, they committed

1205
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 2: to the seven years that should be it should be. Uh.

1206
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 2: And we we we made an investment in the artists,

1207
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 2: so as they start in the film studio and make

1208
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 2: an investment that their there are actors. And they won

1209
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 2: the day, which basically said, if you don't deliver all

1210
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 2: the products, even if it's on option, even if the

1211
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 2: option was not exercised, Uh, you have to you have

1212
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 2: to deliver the album and if you have and if

1213
01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 2: you haven't done that, you're liable for damages. You're liable

1214
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 2: for damages were undelivered damages for what? What are the damages?

1215
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 2: So what album sold ten million albums? Next album could

1216
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 2: sell nothing? We don't know what are the damages. Are

1217
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:14,439
Speaker 2: the damages the basis of what you would have made

1218
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 2: on ten million albums? Uncertain? There's no answer. There's no

1219
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 2: answer to that at all. But they got they got

1220
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 2: the legislature in California to agree that artists could be

1221
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 2: sued for damage for damages for undelivered product even though

1222
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 2: they weren't optioned in the state of California. And that's

1223
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 2: the state of the law. Now. It's preposterous. In my

1224
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 2: personal opinion, it should never have happened. As I say,

1225
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 2: I opposed it on behalf of the artists. I went

1226
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 2: up there to testifying along with Don Henley and others.

1227
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 2: Don Henley was not my client, but we were part

1228
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 2: of the same artist coalition. Recording Artists Coalition and we

1229
01:17:56,400 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 2: opposed the legislation. Unfortunately, we didn't win that, or we

1230
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:05,679
Speaker 2: lost that, however you want to describe it. It's not right,

1231
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 2: but that is the state of the law in the

1232
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 2: state of California. So even if they haven't delivered all

1233
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 2: the products in the seven year period, they can't get out.

1234
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 2: They can't get out.

1235
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:24,280
Speaker 1: Okay. Let's shift to publishing for a second. So it

1236
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: has been your experience with termination rights in publishing.

1237
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 2: Been more positive, much more positive. So far. We've had

1238
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:41,040
Speaker 2: no issue with getting people out of the contract. Yeah,

1239
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 2: I stopped out of the country. I'm sorry. We have

1240
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 2: no problem not terminating and not getting the rights back. Correct.

1241
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: Okay. So let's say you have what they call a

1242
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: heritage artist, someone whose heyday of recordings is in the past,

1243
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 1: and they walk in and they say, okay, I have

1244
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:05,440
Speaker 1: the right of termination. A lot of them will immediately

1245
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 1: make a deal with the person who had it before.

1246
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:11,639
Speaker 1: What would you advise someone who now has an asset

1247
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 1: which they've regained, Well, it all.

1248
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 2: Depends on their relationship. If you're with a good publisher,

1249
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 2: you're with a good publisher, you probably want to stay

1250
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:25,680
Speaker 2: with a good publisher. So you make it. You make

1251
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 2: a new deal, make yourself a better deal, maybe get

1252
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 2: some advances, better royalties, what have you. If you've got

1253
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 2: a good publisher, why not stay with them? Don't You

1254
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 2: don't give them the ownership necessarily, you will make a

1255
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:44,200
Speaker 2: deal for what we call an administration deal, and you

1256
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 2: get more favorable rates instead. Instead of the publisher getting

1257
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 2: fifty percent or twenty five percent, maybe you get them

1258
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 2: down to ten percent, maybe even five percent. But if

1259
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 2: you've got a good publisher, a good publisher, are you

1260
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 2: really want a good publisher, and good publishers are very effective,

1261
01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:07,880
Speaker 2: why not make a deal with them. Unless you're very

1262
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 2: unhappy with that particular publisher, and then okay, take your

1263
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:14,599
Speaker 2: stuff back and run somewhere else. But you're still going

1264
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 2: to have to make a deal with somebody. You can't

1265
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:19,559
Speaker 2: do it yourself. You can't do it by advise it.

1266
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 2: I guess doing it yourself. There's too much to administrate,

1267
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,679
Speaker 2: there's too many licenses to do, there's too much knowledge

1268
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 2: you need about what the latest deals are, et cetera.

1269
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:34,479
Speaker 2: So do your termination right and make a deal. If

1270
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 2: you like the publisher, make a deal with the publisher

1271
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 2: the same one.

1272
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the beginning of a contract. Sure, you

1273
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: make a deal with a major label doesn't include publishing rights,

1274
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 1: and different publishers will come and say I'll buy the

1275
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 1: publishing or a license it. They're different deals. Do you

1276
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 1: advise taking the money? What do you advise an act

1277
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:58,600
Speaker 1: at the beginning of their career relative to publishing.

1278
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 2: My general advice, without anything else is, never give up

1279
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 2: ownership of your publisher. Never give up ownership. Make an

1280
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 2: administration deal for them to administrate for a limited period

1281
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 2: of time, and then it gives you. If they do

1282
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 2: a good job, you'll do another one with them. If

1283
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 2: they're not doing any job, you'll go with somebody else.

1284
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 2: But never ever, ever give up ownership of your copyrights.

1285
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 1: Which brings the next question. We are now an era

1286
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 1: where people are selling their copyrights out right Hypnosis, Primary Wave.

1287
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 1: There are a number of these companies round hill. What's

1288
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:43,480
Speaker 1: your advice to clients on that.

1289
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 2: That's a person, it's a personal thing. If they the

1290
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 2: mondies are very big. Some of these copyrights have gone

1291
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 2: for as much as the thirty times multiple s are

1292
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 2: twenty five times multiple summer, twenty sixth summer, or twenty

1293
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 2: or less This is a personal question. It's not that

1294
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 2: we could have advice on them, because it's a person.

1295
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 2: It has to do with their personal finances and their

1296
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 2: personal future. If they if they feel that they don't

1297
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 2: mind losing control of their copyrights and they want to

1298
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 2: pocket a lot of money, then you do the deal.

1299
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 2: But if you want to control of your copyrights, really

1300
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:28,080
Speaker 2: control your cover, then you don't sell because once you sell,

1301
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 2: although you can retain limited controls, limited but limited approval rights,

1302
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 2: I should not control limited approval rights. Again, you got

1303
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:42,839
Speaker 2: down to I've heard a songwriters say, these are my babies,

1304
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 2: these are benter creation. Well, do you want to sell

1305
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 2: your baby? Do you want to sell your creation? I

1306
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:52,559
Speaker 2: never advised them to sell. Unless the money is so

1307
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 2: big that they say, wow, I can make a score

1308
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 2: now and I don't have to worry for the rest

1309
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:05,679
Speaker 2: of my life. That's a different choice.

1310
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 1: Okay, what we have seen in the digital era is

1311
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:14,519
Speaker 1: they said the sky was falling, you know, twenty years ago,

1312
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:22,240
Speaker 1: and now there are endless new avenues of remuteration. And

1313
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:25,599
Speaker 1: everybody I know has sold before this previous run up

1314
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:29,639
Speaker 1: it has always regretted it. So thirty X, if you're

1315
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:32,840
Speaker 1: seventy looks like a really good number. Not that many

1316
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:36,960
Speaker 1: people live to one hundred. But assuming I didn't need

1317
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 1: the cash, what would you tell me.

1318
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 2: Well, what's the reason for selling it? I don't see

1319
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 2: the reason why killing it if somebody can make a

1320
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 2: big score, and some of you see if people have

1321
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 2: made a big score. But if you don't need the cash,

1322
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:59,439
Speaker 2: and you don't have something to do with that cash

1323
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,640
Speaker 2: right now, you have there's certain investments you'd like to do.

1324
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 2: You'd like to buy this building or or buy a

1325
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 2: yacht or whatever you have in mind, there could be

1326
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 2: a reason to do it. But absent that, unless you

1327
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 2: have a specific reason what you want to do with

1328
01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:21,000
Speaker 2: the money, or you're fearful about the future and you

1329
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:23,760
Speaker 2: want to put this money away, those are reasons to

1330
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:26,599
Speaker 2: not to sell. But when you yours, when you sell,

1331
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 2: you giving up a certain amount of control. It's your

1332
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 2: I've heard songwriter say these are my babies. Well, do

1333
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 2: you want to sell your baby? Uh? You want to

1334
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,920
Speaker 2: sell your You want to sell the control of this copyright?

1335
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 2: What can be done with it? What can how it

1336
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 2: can be used? Who who can license it or where

1337
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 2: where it can be used? Tough questions.

1338
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 1: And in terms of overall revenues from recordings, do you

1339
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 1: see what do you see coming down the pike?

1340
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 2: Revenues revenues are are very good right now and increasing

1341
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:10,879
Speaker 2: because of because of streaming. Uh. The streaming has uh

1342
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 2: recovery has recovered the or it has caused the music

1343
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:18,800
Speaker 2: industry to recover from the adultgens that went through after

1344
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:25,000
Speaker 2: the nineties. Uh, it went really really down. Uh, and

1345
01:25:25,479 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 2: streaming has been a savior for it. And there's uh

1346
01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:36,760
Speaker 2: the royalties seemed to increase. Uh. The so it's been

1347
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 2: a boon. It's been a boon for the for the

1348
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:45,720
Speaker 2: record industry, for the artists UH that participated. Uh. Very

1349
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 2: it's very very good, very good to see.

1350
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:53,679
Speaker 1: Okay, there are many artists and artists are not always

1351
01:25:53,680 --> 01:26:00,120
Speaker 1: informed on the economics who decry streaming payouts and and

1352
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: we know that if you stream in quantity, there's a

1353
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:09,320
Speaker 1: lot of money there. What is your viewpoint overall on

1354
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 1: streaming payouts.

1355
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:14,640
Speaker 2: Well, there's two aspects of the streaming aspect. One is

1356
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:18,639
Speaker 2: the recordings stream backs for the recording that are the streaming,

1357
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:22,240
Speaker 2: and then there's one for the songwriters. The difficulty for

1358
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:28,080
Speaker 2: the songwriters is in particular, their royalties are regulated by

1359
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: the government. There are hearings that have to be held

1360
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:37,760
Speaker 2: as to what the streaming rates are for songwriters. Now,

1361
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 2: don't I don't think that the executives of companies would

1362
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 2: like their rates set by the government. Uh, And I

1363
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:49,360
Speaker 2: don't think and songwriters certainly don't. And it's it's they

1364
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:54,920
Speaker 2: really feel wronged that their future and their livelihood and

1365
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,840
Speaker 2: their income is determined by the government in the sense

1366
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 2: that you have to has to be hearings on what

1367
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:08,639
Speaker 2: the royalty rates are for that. Now, in other words,

1368
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:12,040
Speaker 2: there's a mechanical rate which they're limited as it's been

1369
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 2: raised a little bit recently. There's the mechanical rate. There

1370
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,240
Speaker 2: is the streaming rates which are regulated, has going up

1371
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 2: a little bit for them, but it's not the same

1372
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,679
Speaker 2: regular regulation that the artists have. Part of their money,

1373
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 2: the artist's monies are regulated, but a good portion or

1374
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,880
Speaker 2: not a good portion with the record companies where they

1375
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:37,719
Speaker 2: can make a lot of money amount of money depending

1376
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 2: upon their deal. So the songwriters had the biggest complaint

1377
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:43,439
Speaker 2: to make it this particular point because of all the

1378
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 2: regulations that their income is regulated by the government or

1379
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 2: our government decree. I should say.

1380
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:55,639
Speaker 1: Prior to the digital era royalties, the record companies never

1381
01:27:55,680 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 1: paid one hundred percent on the royalties, and if you

1382
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:03,639
Speaker 1: did audit it cost you a fortune. There was a window.

1383
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: If they found money, they settled. What's the status of

1384
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 1: the honesty of payments these days?

1385
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 2: Okay, let me answer it this way. I've never taken

1386
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:22,639
Speaker 2: an audit. I'm not going to respond to the word honesty.

1387
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 2: I've never taken an audit of any company where we

1388
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:33,320
Speaker 2: haven't found money. Okay? Is it mistakes? Is misallocation? What

1389
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 2: is it we always find bundy? Okay. I've never claimed

1390
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 2: that they're dishonest. Okay. There are so many ways that

1391
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:47,400
Speaker 2: money can be calculated in a recording contract, and so

1392
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 2: many It comes in from so many sources, in so

1393
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:53,360
Speaker 2: many ways, through so many departments of the record company.

1394
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:58,840
Speaker 2: It's not so simple. And mistakes are made. Are they

1395
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 2: pretty good to correct the mistakes when you order and

1396
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 2: find them? Yes? Are they fighting you on these things?

1397
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 2: They'll fight because are the interpretation of the language. But generally,

1398
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:13,960
Speaker 2: I have ever taken it long where we didn't find

1399
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,439
Speaker 2: money and then we didn't settle. I've never had a

1400
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 2: suit one of these companies, never have had the sue

1401
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 2: one of these companies. We always resolve it. Are there

1402
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:26,840
Speaker 2: things in there that we challenged that we never resolved? Yeah,

1403
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 2: there are some items like interest you really can get

1404
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:35,160
Speaker 2: interest from them. Or foreign taxes is another thing. You

1405
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:40,360
Speaker 2: always fight about whether they could have deducted from taxes

1406
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:45,320
Speaker 2: paid in the United States, et cetera. But I can't

1407
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,519
Speaker 2: say they've been dishonest. But let's say, if there's a question,

1408
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,640
Speaker 2: of course, they're going to take a favorable interpretation. And

1409
01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 2: a lot of these things are our questions as to

1410
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,599
Speaker 2: where it belongs or what it is, or have they

1411
01:29:56,720 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 2: allocated it right. But I've settled every audit. I've never

1412
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 2: had to sue them. Did we get one hundred percent

1413
01:30:06,439 --> 01:30:09,040
Speaker 2: of what our claims in? No, we've never gotten one

1414
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:12,760
Speaker 2: hundred percent of our claim claims in, but sufficient to

1415
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 2: satisfy the client.

1416
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 1: Okay, just switching to the live business for one second.

1417
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:24,559
Speaker 1: Lawyers are heavily involved in negotiating tour deals. At this point,

1418
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: to what degree are you involved in that and what

1419
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:29,160
Speaker 1: is the state of the business.

1420
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 2: Yes, we are true to a large degree the agent's

1421
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 2: run point on the tour deals. The agents are very

1422
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,479
Speaker 2: They're all very good. All the agencies are very good

1423
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 2: at that. They've got a lot of experience. But we

1424
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 2: were there going over the scene, questioning. I'm monitoring it,

1425
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:56,840
Speaker 2: putting our opinion on whether they it's certain items and

1426
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 2: the things that but we work alongside managers and agents

1427
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 2: and those things, not alone.

1428
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:07,000
Speaker 1: And what's the status of insurance for cancelation of gigs

1429
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 1: for whatever reason?

1430
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 2: Today there's insurance that we try and maintain. I have

1431
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 2: not had a problem, not with not getting insured. We've

1432
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:17,880
Speaker 2: always had insurance.

1433
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:23,679
Speaker 1: Okay. To what degree has your practice of law been

1434
01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:26,920
Speaker 1: all consuming and to what degree it has affected your

1435
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:27,679
Speaker 1: family life?

1436
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:35,640
Speaker 2: Huh? I hadn't had a negative because I have. I've

1437
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 2: been married a long time. She was a musician, he

1438
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:44,519
Speaker 2: is a musician herself. She's very, very understanding. So it's

1439
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 2: never been a problem with my wife. We've been married

1440
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 2: fifty some other year, fifty three years. That's not been

1441
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:57,600
Speaker 2: a problem. But the business is all If you're going

1442
01:31:57,640 --> 01:31:59,880
Speaker 2: to do this business and do it right, whether you're

1443
01:31:59,880 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 2: a lawyer or an agent or a manager, it is

1444
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:07,360
Speaker 2: all consuming. It takes a lot of time. It's not

1445
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 2: a nine to five job. It's weekends, not all weekends,

1446
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 2: but it's weekends, it's nights, it's during your vacation, etc.

1447
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:19,760
Speaker 2: It goes with the territory. We don't think about it

1448
01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 2: because we don't. It's just our job. It's just our

1449
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 2: job to do it, and we find a way to

1450
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:24,599
Speaker 2: do it.

1451
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:26,120
Speaker 1: And how did you meet your wife?

1452
01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:31,640
Speaker 2: I met her backstage at the Greek Theater. I was

1453
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 2: representing a featured act at that time, and she was

1454
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 2: joining the opening act.

1455
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: Okay, now you are in your nineties. I don't know

1456
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:47,599
Speaker 1: whether you're comfortable saying your exact age. How much long

1457
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:47,960
Speaker 1: are you going.

1458
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 2: To do this? I'm as long as I can. I

1459
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 2: love my job. I love the people I work with.

1460
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 2: I love my partners, I love my clients. Uh. As

1461
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 2: long as I'm healthy and UH can deal with it,

1462
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:09,920
Speaker 2: I want to do it. I enjoy my I enjoy

1463
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:11,680
Speaker 2: my work. I look forward to it. I get up

1464
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 2: every day looking forward to the day, looking forward to

1465
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 2: the interesting. I'm learning something every day. Why why wouldn't

1466
01:33:17,439 --> 01:33:19,639
Speaker 2: I What what we're gonna do is sit at home?

1467
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 2: Uh Uh. I enjoyed. I enjoy the clients I work with.

1468
01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 2: I've got doc on wood, terrific clients. Uh uh. Interesting

1469
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:38,160
Speaker 2: interesting issues. I'm learning something new every day. Uh. I

1470
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 2: never know enough. There's no way to know enough about

1471
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 2: this business. There's always something to learn every single day.

1472
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 2: Uh Uh. It keeps you going. I think it keeps

1473
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 2: you going.

1474
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 1: Okay, this is a business that a lot of people

1475
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:56,160
Speaker 1: and this is a thing in general today they talk

1476
01:33:56,160 --> 01:33:59,680
Speaker 1: about in sports where people don't understand the history. What

1477
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:04,519
Speaker 1: the young people not know about the entertainment business that

1478
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 1: they should know?

1479
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:15,360
Speaker 2: No? No, well, okay, what the what it's It's a business. Okay,

1480
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:18,519
Speaker 2: it's a serious business. It's not fun and games. It's

1481
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 2: a serious business. I guess learn your business. Learn learn

1482
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 2: what learn what you're in here was just not just law. Uh,

1483
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:32,040
Speaker 2: it's not just accounting. It's it's a business. Learn the business. Uh,

1484
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:35,040
Speaker 2: learned everything about it. There's no end to it, and

1485
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:39,120
Speaker 2: it changes on every changes on a daily basis. Who

1486
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:41,519
Speaker 2: knew that not that long ago? About streaming? Who know

1487
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 2: anything about streaming and what it is and where it's

1488
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 2: going and what is developed? Who knew was going to

1489
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 2: take over the took over the business? When I first

1490
01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:53,960
Speaker 2: got into this business, there was the contract I think

1491
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:55,960
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier. It was three pages. It was three

1492
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 2: pages long, get a Capitol Records contract. The first way

1493
01:34:58,320 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 2: I looked at that was three pages. It dealt with

1494
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:09,040
Speaker 2: forty fives and thirty three and seventy eight's. We're a

1495
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 2: little ways from that, and it's been exciting. It's an

1496
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 2: exciting venture to go along to learn these things and

1497
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:17,360
Speaker 2: see what people come up with and new and now

1498
01:35:17,360 --> 01:35:19,559
Speaker 2: we're going into AI and what do we deal with that?

1499
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:21,439
Speaker 2: How are we dealing with that? So we're lucky we're

1500
01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:27,240
Speaker 2: studying that, trying to learn AI, trying to learn what

1501
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 2: it means, and how to prevent rip off of our

1502
01:35:31,439 --> 01:35:35,800
Speaker 2: client's voices and things of that nature. And we don't

1503
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:37,800
Speaker 2: want licensing. We have to be careful with life. We

1504
01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:40,640
Speaker 2: don't want our product license into AI without our permission,

1505
01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:43,200
Speaker 2: without knowing exactly what it is. And we've got to

1506
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,640
Speaker 2: learn all about that. You're constantly learning. Learning is what

1507
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:50,000
Speaker 2: keeps you going, not sitting on your rear end at

1508
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:51,000
Speaker 2: home reading a book.

1509
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:57,320
Speaker 1: Okay, Jay, you're you know, you're amazing, as sharp as ever.

1510
01:35:58,000 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 1: You've seen it all and I want to thank you

1511
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:02,640
Speaker 1: for taking this time to share your wisdom and your

1512
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:03,799
Speaker 1: story with my audience.

1513
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,400
Speaker 2: Well, well, thank you. Uh it's been It's been a

1514
01:36:07,439 --> 01:36:10,800
Speaker 2: real pleasure. I just wanted to finish with one thing.

1515
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:15,439
Speaker 2: We started off with Rod Temperton. Then, Uh, as I

1516
01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:17,040
Speaker 2: told you on the phone. I think we told you

1517
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:19,880
Speaker 2: on the phone. The most amazing thing about Rod is

1518
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:25,240
Speaker 2: when Quincy heard the When Quincy heard the the recording

1519
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:29,160
Speaker 2: is by heat Wave. Uh, and he called Rod Temperton,

1520
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:33,240
Speaker 2: and Rod Temperton came into came in here. First song

1521
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:39,519
Speaker 2: Rod wrote was off the Wall. Uh, it's extraordinary. And

1522
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:42,559
Speaker 2: then the next thing he wrote that was the next thing,

1523
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:45,160
Speaker 2: or a couple of songs later he wrote was for

1524
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:49,640
Speaker 2: the next album, Thriller. He wrote, thriller. Uh, it's extraordinary.

1525
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:53,040
Speaker 2: It's this little guy from from the north of England

1526
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:56,479
Speaker 2: who came out of nowhere.

1527
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:02,720
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so when someone walks in your office, do

1528
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:04,720
Speaker 1: you know who's gonna make it? And now how big

1529
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:05,320
Speaker 1: they're gonna be?

1530
01:37:05,920 --> 01:37:08,519
Speaker 2: No, you don't know. You don't know. You can guess.

1531
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:10,920
Speaker 2: You can guess as to who's not gonna make it.

1532
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 2: You can guess who's not gonna make it. But when

1533
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 2: somebody comes in with songs like he wrote with heat

1534
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:24,720
Speaker 2: Wave as an example as an example, you you know,

1535
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:28,719
Speaker 2: you know it's only a matter of time, and I've

1536
01:37:28,720 --> 01:37:31,680
Speaker 2: had that experience with a number of artists and songwriters.

1537
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:33,719
Speaker 2: You come in and you hear some of that stuff,

1538
01:37:33,720 --> 01:37:36,520
Speaker 2: you say, there's no problem here.

1539
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 1: Okay Jay, Thanks again, many more years of practice for you.

1540
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you doctor.

1541
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:48,479
Speaker 1: Until next time, This is Bob left sex